0:00:56 > 0:00:58Imagine what it must be like
0:00:58 > 0:01:01to grow up as the child of a mass murderer.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05To live with such a parent must impose the most terrible of burdens.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15My name is Niklas Frank.
0:01:15 > 0:01:20I am born 9th of March, 1939.
0:01:20 > 0:01:26This is not special, special is that I'm by chance
0:01:26 > 0:01:29the son of Hans Frank.
0:01:29 > 0:01:35He was politically responsible for all the ghettos
0:01:35 > 0:01:41and for the concentration camps on the soil of Poland.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47I was researching a book on the Nuremberg trial
0:01:47 > 0:01:48when I met Niklas Frank,
0:01:48 > 0:01:51and later he introduced me to Horst von Wachter.
0:01:54 > 0:02:01I was born in Vienna on 14th April, 1939.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04So I'm still a child of peace.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07It was before the war.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11As gratitude towards the Nazi party,
0:02:11 > 0:02:13my mother proposed the name of Horst,
0:02:13 > 0:02:17after Horst Wessel who was a prominent figure
0:02:17 > 0:02:20from the first years of the Nazi party.
0:02:20 > 0:02:26Right from the beginning, my father, he was a complete Nazi.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29The material was all the more relevant to me
0:02:29 > 0:02:31because of my own family background.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34I'm Jewish and my family was very directly affected
0:02:34 > 0:02:37by the actions of these men.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39I'm curious about details and people.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43I want to know why things happened, why people act as they do,
0:02:43 > 0:02:47how they can engage in mass killing and then spend an evening with their families.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50Yet, watching these images felt dirty,
0:02:50 > 0:02:54as though I was complicit in a voyeuristic sort of way,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57looking on the inside of horror.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13Mr President, members of the court, uh, it's an honour...
0:03:13 > 0:03:16'My day job is working as an international lawyer
0:03:16 > 0:03:20'on cases involving genocide and crimes against humanity,
0:03:20 > 0:03:22'but it was while working on my book
0:03:22 > 0:03:26'that I was commissioned to write an article about Horst von Wachter.'
0:03:35 > 0:03:37I came with a tremendous anxiety
0:03:37 > 0:03:39because I just didn't know what to expect,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42and because of this connection with the past.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44Here was a man who might have met Hitler.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47I was meeting someone who was directly connected,
0:03:47 > 0:03:49not just with abstract history
0:03:49 > 0:03:52but with a deep part of my family's life.
0:03:58 > 0:03:59How did you find this house?
0:03:59 > 0:04:03Here, there was a colony of artists in the '60s, you know.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05- Living in the schloss? - Yeah, yeah.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07It was a secret place, you know,
0:04:07 > 0:04:11- where they came and made their festivities.- Yeah.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13I love this staircase.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15Everything has a meaning, you know.
0:04:15 > 0:04:20Positions of the doors for elements, for directions.
0:04:20 > 0:04:25This room is devoted to Trismegistus,
0:04:25 > 0:04:30who's the god of wisdom, god of numbers.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32- 22 windows.- No, that...
0:04:32 > 0:04:36- No, 16 windows.- There are 16, then you have four doors.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39- Yeah.- And you have two chimneys, you know.- Yeah.
0:04:39 > 0:04:45And 22 is the number of the letters
0:04:45 > 0:04:47in the Hebrew alphabet.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51This is really very important.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53The Hebrew thing keeps coming back.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55Yes, it is Hebrew.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59Here you see we have two lovers, you know.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02Are they the same lovers or are they different lovers?
0:05:02 > 0:05:05No, they are different. They are very different, you know.
0:05:05 > 0:05:06'I've come to talk with him about
0:05:06 > 0:05:09'what his father got up to during the Second World War,
0:05:09 > 0:05:13'and he just wanted to talk about stones and rocks and buildings,
0:05:13 > 0:05:16'about history going back millennia, not just 70 years.'
0:05:16 > 0:05:21You can see here the two putti, they are kissing each other, you know.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25You told me that this building was your father's gift to you.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27- Oh, yes.- What did you mean by that?
0:05:27 > 0:05:30When you said that to me, what did you mean by that?
0:05:30 > 0:05:32This has to do with my youth
0:05:32 > 0:05:37and how I dropped out of normality because of my father.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41Because my normality was...
0:05:41 > 0:05:45That was normality between... until 1945
0:05:45 > 0:05:48when I was six years,
0:05:48 > 0:05:51and that was practically destroyed, you know,
0:05:51 > 0:05:55by this whole, by the war, more or less,
0:05:55 > 0:05:58but I see it now like this.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Because everything was finished, you know,
0:06:00 > 0:06:04and I was raised like a... like a young Nazi boy
0:06:04 > 0:06:07and that everything was right and things like that,
0:06:07 > 0:06:12and from one day to the other everything was gone, you know,
0:06:12 > 0:06:14and that was... I was really shocked.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16I mean, I feel it today,
0:06:16 > 0:06:22so that's why I'm here, you know, more or less.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28MUSIC: Piano Sonata No 8 by Ludwig van Beethoven
0:06:32 > 0:06:37I do remember moments in summertime on the lake.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42I remember my...sixth birthday
0:06:42 > 0:06:47which was on 14th of April, 1945.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50It's not only that the regime broke down
0:06:50 > 0:06:53but everything around us broke down.
0:06:53 > 0:06:57The normality broke down for us, for me,
0:06:57 > 0:07:02and I was just... I remember when I was sitting on this...veranda
0:07:02 > 0:07:04overlooking...the lake,
0:07:04 > 0:07:09and we had this small birthday party
0:07:09 > 0:07:13and then I was alone and just thought that
0:07:13 > 0:07:17I should remember this moment for all my life.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22You had this feeling that everything is finished,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25there is no future for you
0:07:25 > 0:07:28and whatever you do it has no sense, you know.
0:07:30 > 0:07:37What I remember now is the... British and American war planes.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42You saw these huge masses of planes over you
0:07:42 > 0:07:48and sometimes they... Yes, I remember. Yes.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58I remember that they dropped...
0:07:59 > 0:08:03They dropped the bombs in the lake, you know.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06When they had too much bombs
0:08:06 > 0:08:10or they just wanted to get rid of the bombs,
0:08:10 > 0:08:13they dropped it into the lake and...
0:08:14 > 0:08:19And the whole, uh... The whole house started to shiver, you know.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30'Within an hour of sitting in his room,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34'he'd taken out the family albums and we were going through pages
0:08:34 > 0:08:36'of summer holidays and winter holidays,
0:08:36 > 0:08:38'interspersed with pictures of Dachau,
0:08:38 > 0:08:40'images of AH, Adolf Hitler,
0:08:40 > 0:08:44'and all that happened in the first two hours that I met Horst.'
0:08:51 > 0:08:53And here we have him on the water,
0:08:53 > 0:08:55Austrian rowing champion on the Danube.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58Yes.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01- Next album. - As the years move on.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05'Otto von Wachter played a central role in the murder
0:09:05 > 0:09:08'of the Austrian Chancellor by the Nazis in 1934.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11'As early as that he was a leading Austrian Nazi.'
0:09:11 > 0:09:14And he's gone from being a complete outsider...
0:09:14 > 0:09:16- Yeah, into the government. - Into the government.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20So he was named SS-Oberfuhrer on Kristallnacht.
0:09:22 > 0:09:24Yeah, when this... This was Kristallnacht.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26That's Kristallnacht, yeah.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Yeah, I must check it but then when you say it...
0:09:29 > 0:09:33A year later he's now been upgraded and he's a Brigadefuhrer...
0:09:33 > 0:09:36That's already in Krakow here.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39- I recognize that, that's... - Yeah, that's my mother.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41That's your mother sitting with Niklas's mother?
0:09:41 > 0:09:44- Yeah, Brigitte Frank. - So this must be in the Wawel.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46- Yes.- In the Wawel castle.
0:09:46 > 0:09:51And you see, she was quite a good friend to Brigitte Frank.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57'I was transported back 70 years to the heart of an appalling regime
0:09:57 > 0:10:01'but Horst was looking at these images with a different eye from mine.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04'I see a man who has probably been responsible
0:10:04 > 0:10:07'for the killing of tens of thousands of Jews and Poles.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09'Horst looks at the same photographs
0:10:09 > 0:10:12'and he sees a beloved father playing with the children
0:10:12 > 0:10:15'and he's thinking that was family life.'
0:10:19 > 0:10:22- More skiing photos.- Yes.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24And this... And now we're in Lemberg.
0:10:24 > 0:10:25Now we're in Lemberg.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27What is he now?
0:10:27 > 0:10:29- The Governor of Galicia.- Yes.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33So they've just occupied it. Here he is, they've just occupied it,
0:10:33 > 0:10:36they are moving east, this is Soviet propaganda,
0:10:36 > 0:10:39- and is that your father?- Yes.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43- There was a little photograph. - Yeah, yeah of the... With the Jews.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45Yeah.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48- That was a visit to Warsaw. - A visit to Warsaw.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52The eye's attention is caught by the little girl
0:10:52 > 0:10:56- who is in the middle and... - Wait...
0:10:56 > 0:10:59the light is not so good here.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07- So your father?- Yeah.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09- And this is Himmler.- Yeah.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13It is in '43, must be.
0:11:13 > 0:11:15- His Galician SS Division.- Yeah.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18That was his biggest effort there
0:11:18 > 0:11:22and because it built up this division
0:11:22 > 0:11:25with the help of the Ukrainians.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28And that's... That's not you?
0:11:28 > 0:11:30That is me, yes, that's me.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32You went to stay in the Franks' summer house?
0:11:32 > 0:11:34I must be sitting behind there.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36You're sitting there. That's you over there.
0:11:36 > 0:11:37Yeah, it must be.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39- I think that's Niklas... - Yes, it could be.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41..in the Schoberhof.
0:11:48 > 0:11:53The very first picture I have in mind I was being washed by my nurse.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56It was my first memory, it was here in Schoberhof.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00Our rooms were on the back side, it's now torn down.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05The building, it became more and more a ruin
0:12:05 > 0:12:09but now it really tore myself apart
0:12:09 > 0:12:12when I saw they are rebuilding it in a new way,
0:12:12 > 0:12:14that really hurts.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17- Because?- Because it's my home.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19We always had our holidays here,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22we loved the mountains around here, skiing.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29# O Tannenbaum, O Tannenbaum
0:12:29 > 0:12:35# Du kannst mir sehr gefallen
0:12:35 > 0:12:40# Wie oft hat nicht zur Weihnachtszeit
0:12:40 > 0:12:46# Ein Baum von dir mich hoch erfreut!
0:12:46 > 0:12:52# O Tannenbaum, O Tannenbaum
0:12:52 > 0:12:56# Du kannst mir sehr gefallen! #
0:12:56 > 0:13:01My beloved nurse Hilda, she was always with us.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Everything what is human with me,
0:13:05 > 0:13:09came from Hilda, not from my mother.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12And when my mother came back for instance and said,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16"Oh, Hilda, go away, now I am with my children.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18"You have a free day off."
0:13:18 > 0:13:22And after 20 minutes she said, "No, no, Hilda, you have to stay.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25"I can't do it with the children, I am too nervous.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27"Please keep the children with you."
0:13:27 > 0:13:30And she was away with her old Mercedes.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Because I have some memories also of Poland
0:13:34 > 0:13:37and she filled in what was left.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40For instance, by visiting the Krakow ghetto.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42I only had some, few...
0:13:42 > 0:13:47And she said where it was, when it was and what happened.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50- Did she accompany you? - Yes, she was with me.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53I was never alone as a little child in the Krakow ghetto.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Together with my mother.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58What did you... I mean, what did you see in the Krakow ghetto?
0:14:20 > 0:14:22The only thing I remember was
0:14:22 > 0:14:27that I was standing inside my Mercedes car, on the back side,
0:14:27 > 0:14:32and there were a lot of sad people around me outside.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36And there were some young people of my age,
0:14:36 > 0:14:38children.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42And to one of them I took out my tongue,
0:14:42 > 0:14:46and he went away very sadly looking,
0:14:46 > 0:14:51and so I was the winner and I was laughing aloud.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54But Hilda took me back and was silent besides me,
0:14:54 > 0:14:56showing me that was not correct.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17Your mother accompanied you on that trip?
0:15:17 > 0:15:21Yes, but she was outside of the car shopping in the ghetto.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24What shopping was there in the ghetto? I mean the imagination...
0:15:24 > 0:15:28Furs, furs. She was always looking for furs.
0:15:28 > 0:15:32When you say shopping, you meaning shopping or stealing?
0:15:32 > 0:15:34She said "surprises," I would say,
0:15:34 > 0:15:37and everybody who was selling to her would say,
0:15:37 > 0:15:41"Oh, that's the wife of the Governor-General. I'm lucky I will survive."
0:15:41 > 0:15:44Yeah, and did your father accompany you on those?
0:15:44 > 0:15:46No, never.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48They hated each other.
0:15:48 > 0:15:53The marriage was gone and my father wanted a divorce,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56my mother fought all the way up to Hitler
0:15:56 > 0:16:01and Hitler forbade my father the divorce till after the war.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05She... She actually contacted Hitler?
0:16:05 > 0:16:09Yes, by letter. She didn't come personally to him
0:16:09 > 0:16:15but she wrote a letter, a letter including a picture of her and the five children.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18And the consequence of that was that Hitler did what?
0:16:18 > 0:16:21- Hitler instructed...- He forbade.
0:16:21 > 0:16:25Hitler forbade Frank the divorce till after the war.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28And why did your father just not ignore that?
0:16:28 > 0:16:32He loved Hitler more than his family.
0:16:33 > 0:16:37IN GERMAN:
0:16:53 > 0:16:57My father, he wrote a letter and wrote, uh,
0:16:57 > 0:17:01"I am seeing mountains of corpses,
0:17:01 > 0:17:06"I am going into the dark, please don't accompany me,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09"give me the divorce."
0:17:09 > 0:17:12He's using the Final Solution to persuade Brigitte
0:17:12 > 0:17:15to give him a divorce and she says no.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20By the way, if she would have said yes,
0:17:20 > 0:17:23we would still keep the show of...
0:17:47 > 0:17:50Niklas and Horst, two men I've come to know
0:17:50 > 0:17:54whose fathers were very senior in the Nazi hierarchy.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Hans Frank started as Hitler's personal lawyer
0:17:57 > 0:18:00and then rose to be Governor-General of occupied Poland.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Otto von Wachter was only a notch or two down,
0:18:05 > 0:18:07he was one of Hans Frank's deputies.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11First the Governor of Krakow, then the Governor of District Galicia.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23What a beautiful castle,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26full of criminals at this time.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07Everybody of those servants, of those German staff of the government
0:19:07 > 0:19:10who worked also here, they knew exactly
0:19:10 > 0:19:14that no day passes by
0:19:14 > 0:19:18that we have not committed the most horrible crimes.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30My father always wanted to please Hitler
0:19:30 > 0:19:35so he gave a shit about... really about the fate of the Jews
0:19:35 > 0:19:38or about the fate of the Polish people.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46Ah, here it is.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51For me, it was the most special room in the whole of the Wawel
0:19:51 > 0:19:57because it was a bath I have never seen before or afterwards.
0:19:57 > 0:20:02I always, it was one of my dreams to have a bath like this,
0:20:02 > 0:20:05going down two steps
0:20:05 > 0:20:11but this was the only gentle experience I had with my father.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15I came in through this door, very small,
0:20:15 > 0:20:18and my father was standing here shaving
0:20:18 > 0:20:21and he saw me
0:20:21 > 0:20:26and gave a little bit of his shaving foam onto my nose
0:20:26 > 0:20:33and that was the only gentle moment between him and me which I remember.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36And you can see that I remember
0:20:36 > 0:20:40how much I was longing for the love of my father,
0:20:40 > 0:20:43otherwise it's quite a normal procedure.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47But it burned my soul, it was the only gentle moment.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51Wonderful bathroom.
0:20:51 > 0:20:56Why do you think your father had so little affection for you?
0:20:56 > 0:21:02Because he didn't... didn't think that I am his son
0:21:02 > 0:21:05but the son of his best friend Karl Lasch.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07Who was your mother's lover?
0:21:07 > 0:21:12At the time...she could have conceived.
0:21:12 > 0:21:18But later I think he believed my mother that I am his son.
0:21:23 > 0:21:29He was five to ten times better educated, for instance, than me.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33He knew Goethe's Faust by heart
0:21:33 > 0:21:36and also most of the plays of Shakespeare.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45As if it was Hans Frank's own procession, huh?
0:21:46 > 0:21:48Unbelievable.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52I am really happy that this painting has survived
0:21:52 > 0:21:55and is back where it belongs to.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58'Leonardo Da Vinci's portrait of Cecilia Gallerani
0:21:58 > 0:22:01'was one of the most famous paintings in the world.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03'Hans Frank took it from a Polish museum
0:22:03 > 0:22:05'created by the Czartoryski family
0:22:05 > 0:22:07'and kept it with him throughout the war.'
0:22:07 > 0:22:08Do you remember that?
0:22:08 > 0:22:11Yes, that I remember because I thought it was a rat.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13- Ermine.- Ermine.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15It's the Lady with Ermine,
0:22:15 > 0:22:18and the painter Leonardo Da Vinci
0:22:18 > 0:22:22described it as a painting that should instil
0:22:22 > 0:22:26in any person who looked at it feelings of love.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30Not to my father.
0:22:30 > 0:22:35In a stolen castle, in a stolen country, it makes me really angry.
0:22:38 > 0:22:43And there's no sense of pride on your part
0:22:43 > 0:22:45that in some way...
0:22:46 > 0:22:52..it could be said that your father's actions did protect this work?
0:22:52 > 0:22:53No, no.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59I could not forgive him, he was bought up as a catholic
0:22:59 > 0:23:03and he studied law in the Weimar democracy.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07So he knew by heart what was right, what was wrong.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11And he went on and on till, to the gallows.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15Because I think he was too much of a coward.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21He knew that he's committing crimes...
0:23:22 > 0:23:28..and...he never had the bravery to say,
0:23:28 > 0:23:30"OK, Mr Hitler, that's it."
0:23:37 > 0:23:40As a family of one of the defendants,
0:23:40 > 0:23:45we have got the chance to visit our father in Nuremberg.
0:23:47 > 0:23:52First thing what I saw was Mr Hermann Goering on the opposite side,
0:23:52 > 0:23:57so I was sitting, looking at my father behind the window,
0:23:57 > 0:24:00"Hi. Nicki, it's a pleasure to see you,
0:24:00 > 0:24:07"soon we will celebrate a really great Christmas together at Schoberhof."
0:24:07 > 0:24:12And I was thinking, "Why is he lying?
0:24:12 > 0:24:17"Why is he lying? He knows that he will be hanged."
0:24:19 > 0:24:22And I was unbelievably disappointed.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34My father, he was staying four years in the mountains, always hidden.
0:24:34 > 0:24:39My mother brought him food and equipment for the winter, for the summer and so on.
0:24:40 > 0:24:46My mother was of course still a Nazi lady,
0:24:46 > 0:24:50so when the American soldiers moved into our house
0:24:50 > 0:24:54they asked my mother, "Are you a Nazi?"
0:24:54 > 0:24:58And my mother said, "Yes, I am Nazi."
0:24:58 > 0:25:04And then they said, "Oh, you're the first person we met who said she is a Nazi."
0:25:06 > 0:25:09- So... - And she was proud?
0:25:09 > 0:25:11Yes, of course she was proud.
0:25:12 > 0:25:16She was convinced that my father was right and did the right things,
0:25:16 > 0:25:20never one word that she spoke bad about him.
0:25:22 > 0:25:27Then he came to live with us, I think it was two weeks or so
0:25:27 > 0:25:30and she said to us smaller children,
0:25:30 > 0:25:35that's an uncle from South America or whatever.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38He had a little moustache
0:25:38 > 0:25:41and...he came up to see us
0:25:41 > 0:25:45when we were sleeping in our beds,
0:25:45 > 0:25:47I remember.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51And that is the only contact with my father I can remember.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55He had good connections to the Vatican.
0:25:55 > 0:26:00He found refuge in some religious institution there
0:26:00 > 0:26:03and...he died very quick there.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13- Oh, my God.- Here she is,
0:26:13 > 0:26:16the queen of Poland, my mother.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20It was painted in 1935.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23- Did they still love each other then?- Yes.
0:26:23 > 0:26:29Or some adultery, but not so heavy ones, lighter.
0:26:29 > 0:26:34And when it was over, it was a big glory of the Frank family,
0:26:34 > 0:26:37she said, "OK, now it's over.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41"Now I have to work my ass off to nourish these children,"
0:26:41 > 0:26:46and she died at the age of 63, completely worn out.
0:26:48 > 0:26:54A very clear picture about the Frank family and what I have done
0:26:54 > 0:26:58and what they have connected to when I saw the first pictures,
0:26:58 > 0:27:01photographs in the newspapers.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04There I saw mountains of corpses
0:27:04 > 0:27:07and also children of my age then.
0:27:07 > 0:27:12And it was always written, underlined, Poland.
0:27:14 > 0:27:18And what happened to me is that, you really get the shock...
0:27:20 > 0:27:23..because I always thought Poland is ours.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47Of course I felt guilty because of my father somehow.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50Of course, because you knew them.
0:27:50 > 0:27:55More or less, it started all this horrible things,
0:27:55 > 0:27:59came into public what happened, and it was not...
0:27:59 > 0:28:01After immediately...
0:28:01 > 0:28:04Immediately after the war there was...
0:28:04 > 0:28:07Nobody talk about this.
0:28:07 > 0:28:09Talked and wrote.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12The difficulties started later.
0:28:13 > 0:28:17My mother wanted me to become a lawyer, of course,
0:28:17 > 0:28:19like my father.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22She was very disappointed because when I said,
0:28:22 > 0:28:28"No, finished. I don't study any more. I go into the woods. Bye-bye, Mother."
0:28:28 > 0:28:31And of course she was very shocked.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35Then she got this professor friend and this friend said to me,
0:28:35 > 0:28:38"Oh, Horst, you don't have to do anything,
0:28:38 > 0:28:39"you will be professor/doctor.
0:28:39 > 0:28:44"You just have to inscribe in Salzburg at the university,"
0:28:44 > 0:28:47and there you had all these friends of my father's,
0:28:47 > 0:28:51and, well, of course I refused this thing
0:28:51 > 0:28:55and I said, "I must find my own way."
0:28:56 > 0:29:00I was closing up and I was very insecure.
0:29:00 > 0:29:03At this certain moment I said to my friend,
0:29:03 > 0:29:08that I want to serve somebody, I want to... Like a servant.
0:29:08 > 0:29:14I really, I have to be of any use to somebody.
0:29:14 > 0:29:19And then they said, "Oh, I know a crazy painter, he needs somebody."
0:29:23 > 0:29:26When I saw Hundertwasser the first time,
0:29:26 > 0:29:28I knew that he would need me
0:29:28 > 0:29:31and I would go along with him quite well
0:29:31 > 0:29:34because he was also a shy person like me,
0:29:34 > 0:29:36and somehow that he was Jewish,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39that was of course very good for my feelings too.
0:29:41 > 0:29:47Then I went sailing the boat to New Zealand, that was his new paradise.
0:29:53 > 0:29:57Perhaps, also with you because you were Jewish.
0:29:57 > 0:30:03Somehow this being Jewish is something very attractive for me.
0:30:03 > 0:30:07And in the beginning when I met Hundertwasser...
0:30:08 > 0:30:11..his mother was afraid of me of course,
0:30:11 > 0:30:16because she knew who my father was.
0:30:16 > 0:30:20And she was, uh...
0:30:22 > 0:30:25..with all her experiences in the war,
0:30:25 > 0:30:28when she had to run around at the start of it.
0:30:30 > 0:30:35The question of the historical responsibility of my father
0:30:35 > 0:30:36is a very complex one,
0:30:36 > 0:30:42but the racial theory of Germans being superman
0:30:42 > 0:30:44and the others being untermenschen,
0:30:44 > 0:30:48my father was against this right from the beginning.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52He was absolutely somebody
0:30:52 > 0:30:54who wanted to do something good,
0:30:54 > 0:30:58and he wanted to get something moving
0:30:58 > 0:31:01and find some solution about all these problems.
0:31:01 > 0:31:06Who arose after the first war and tried...
0:31:06 > 0:31:09He was a complete optimist.
0:31:10 > 0:31:16My father really had deserved to die at the gallows
0:31:16 > 0:31:19for what he has done, he deserved it.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25Besides photos of my beloved family...
0:31:26 > 0:31:30..I always wear with me
0:31:30 > 0:31:34the last picture of my father when he was... After he was hanged.
0:31:35 > 0:31:41He has a swollen eye so maybe he crashed against the trap door.
0:31:44 > 0:31:45On the one hand...
0:31:47 > 0:31:52..yeah, to be sure that he's really dead,
0:31:52 > 0:31:57but on the other hand, and this is what haunts me all my life,
0:31:57 > 0:32:03the Germans know exactly what can happen
0:32:03 > 0:32:07if you are losing civil courage,
0:32:07 > 0:32:09if you are losing democracy,
0:32:09 > 0:32:11it leads to...
0:32:13 > 0:32:17Can lead to extermination camps.
0:32:17 > 0:32:23So we know this by heart because we have done it, the Germans.
0:32:23 > 0:32:27And people of his merciless...
0:32:28 > 0:32:34..kind of living and killing are still alive in Germany.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40The article I had written for the Financial Times
0:32:40 > 0:32:41attracted a lot of interest.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44The newspaper offered to stage a public event
0:32:44 > 0:32:47at which Horst and Niklas could present their views side by side
0:32:47 > 0:32:50and I was surprised when they both agreed.
0:32:50 > 0:32:51THEY SPEAK IN GERMAN
0:32:56 > 0:32:59The two men had much in common with similar backgrounds,
0:32:59 > 0:33:02yet seeing each on his own, I had become acutely aware
0:33:02 > 0:33:04that they had very different attitudes to their fathers.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13Niklas is a more polished and prepared individual.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15Horst has just opened himself up,
0:33:15 > 0:33:18he's never been through anything like this.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20He's never had this kind of scrutiny.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23Horst, let's... Let's turn to you.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26May I first introduce, hmm, have some words?
0:33:26 > 0:33:28Absolutely. Please do.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31Yes, I am very grateful that I can be here.
0:33:31 > 0:33:37That kind of listening and hearing would be impossible in Austria,
0:33:37 > 0:33:41there would be... Well, we don't know anything about Nazis
0:33:41 > 0:33:44and we don't want to know anything and so...
0:33:44 > 0:33:48I'd come to learn that Niklas didn't like to miss any opportunity
0:33:48 > 0:33:51to attack his father and to do so publicly.
0:33:51 > 0:33:53But Horst on the other hand, it was less clear to me
0:33:53 > 0:33:56why he would want to expose himself publicly.
0:33:58 > 0:34:04Both of our fathers were heavily involved, heavily.
0:34:05 > 0:34:09You told me once I should make peace with my father.
0:34:09 > 0:34:14I have peace with my father because I acknowledged his crimes
0:34:14 > 0:34:18and so I could lead a really good life.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21And you, you're struggling for what?
0:34:21 > 0:34:24To fight also against your father.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26Sorry, dear friend.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Well, I think I see it different.
0:34:31 > 0:34:34I see the structure of the whole annihilation of Jews
0:34:34 > 0:34:38and what happens, they are quite different.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41And I didn't look for peace,
0:34:41 > 0:34:44it's just I felt it's my duty as a son
0:34:44 > 0:34:47to put things straight with my father
0:34:47 > 0:34:50and I see who was really responsible.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52But it doesn't make your father innocent
0:34:52 > 0:34:54if he's not quite responsible.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56They worked together,
0:34:56 > 0:35:00all those parts of the German people were working together
0:35:00 > 0:35:03in the annihilation of the Jews, for instance.
0:35:05 > 0:35:09Well, I think, I don't... I don't agree with you
0:35:09 > 0:35:14because I have to swear they protested and my father protested
0:35:14 > 0:35:17even to Hitler that is impossible,
0:35:17 > 0:35:22how to treat the people there and how to and he...
0:35:22 > 0:35:27His fault was that he believed that Hitler would change his politics.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31In our conversations we've touched on
0:35:31 > 0:35:33what you've uncovered about your father,
0:35:33 > 0:35:36he ran, for example, the transportation system
0:35:36 > 0:35:40that shifted people to concentration camps and to their death.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45And yet you've resisted in our conversations
0:35:45 > 0:35:51ever acknowledging that he himself is somehow guilty for what happened.
0:35:51 > 0:35:55Because it's his character.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59I mean, I don't know about transportation
0:35:59 > 0:36:05but when the Jewish ghetto in Lemberg was established
0:36:05 > 0:36:11it's written down below his name, General-Governor Wachter,
0:36:11 > 0:36:15but it's only signed by SS fuehrer...
0:36:15 > 0:36:18So my father refused to sign this.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21That's ridiculous, Horst.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23If he has not signed some document
0:36:23 > 0:36:26but it happened, it happened.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29Do you remember, I showed you a letter that was sent
0:36:29 > 0:36:32by Heinrich Himmler, and in the letter,
0:36:32 > 0:36:35Himmler writes that he asked your father
0:36:35 > 0:36:38whether your father would like to return to Vienna.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41They weren't sure whether your father was fully committed
0:36:41 > 0:36:43to what was about to happen,
0:36:43 > 0:36:48and Himmler wrote, "Victor does not wish to return to Vienna."
0:36:48 > 0:36:52In other words, he would stay and see through
0:36:52 > 0:36:56what he knew was being done. Can you explain what...?
0:36:56 > 0:36:58Yes, he had no choice.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02He couldn't react like he himself felt
0:37:02 > 0:37:05and he was just...
0:37:05 > 0:37:07making...
0:37:07 > 0:37:11He was just employee of his father, you see, but...
0:37:11 > 0:37:13But he chose to stay, he could have gone.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16Yes, but he felt responsible for the people.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18Well, for some of the people.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21Yes, for some... For some he could do.
0:37:21 > 0:37:25From the first moment he was very close with the Ukrainians,
0:37:25 > 0:37:28with the Galician division
0:37:28 > 0:37:33and he actually tried to
0:37:33 > 0:37:35do something positive.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38Why, Niklas, did you introduce me to Horst?
0:37:43 > 0:37:47- It was a trick.- No, when we had our first conversation,
0:37:47 > 0:37:49in this beautiful hotel,
0:37:49 > 0:37:53as a lawyer, for sure, he was always in the best hotel available.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55AUDIENCE LAUGHING
0:37:55 > 0:37:59And I told him we came across Otto Wachter,
0:37:59 > 0:38:02and I told him I am a friend of Horst Wachter,
0:38:02 > 0:38:04his son is a very nice person.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06And you said, "What?
0:38:06 > 0:38:10"You are a friend of this family and of Horst Wachter?"
0:38:10 > 0:38:13I think you will like him, you will like him.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15I had nothing to hide
0:38:15 > 0:38:20or I did nothing that you shouldn't know about my father.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24And my, yeah, family was very angry.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28- And still angry. - And still angry, OK.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Do you regret that we're sitting here
0:38:30 > 0:38:32- in an audience today? - Yes, of course.
0:38:34 > 0:38:38What do you want this audience to take away from this conversation?
0:38:38 > 0:38:40What's the message that you want to leave them?
0:38:42 > 0:38:48Well, I think there are many victims of the Holocaust in sitting here
0:38:48 > 0:38:55and I want them to have a more concern,
0:38:55 > 0:39:01more survey about how things were and they were,
0:39:01 > 0:39:06that there were many different...
0:39:06 > 0:39:07sides about the whole thing
0:39:07 > 0:39:12and it was not just like a block like he wants it to be.
0:39:12 > 0:39:18There had been many people who were against this,
0:39:18 > 0:39:22but that's what I want you to acknowledge
0:39:22 > 0:39:25and that's why I'm thankful I can say this
0:39:25 > 0:39:30and I think it's not... It's my duty but it's also my right
0:39:30 > 0:39:34and it should be said, I mean, and then that I'm very happy.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38Lady over there.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41I love my father and I honour my father
0:39:41 > 0:39:45but as far as I'm aware my father has done nothing to be ashamed of,
0:39:45 > 0:39:47and I don't know what it must be like
0:39:47 > 0:39:50growing up with a heritage like both of you have.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52I must however say, Horst,
0:39:52 > 0:39:56that I think a lot of your arguments are so extraneous
0:39:56 > 0:39:58to the main facts of the issue
0:39:58 > 0:40:03to be actually so self-deceiving, I find it rather frightening.
0:40:03 > 0:40:07All this rubbish about Ukrainians, that's extraneous to the issue.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09OK, so...
0:40:09 > 0:40:10APPLAUSE
0:40:10 > 0:40:13So that's a clear view that's been put.
0:40:13 > 0:40:18Yes, I accept. I accept the view and I think I can understand it.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20The only thing which I...
0:40:20 > 0:40:25It's only related between the relations between me and my father
0:40:25 > 0:40:30and what I turned out to be with my father and that's what I say.
0:40:30 > 0:40:35Nik's father sounds to me like the most horrible father
0:40:35 > 0:40:39and you don't come from a happily married family or anything like that.
0:40:39 > 0:40:45You had a happier childhood, is that not, is it too simple?
0:40:45 > 0:40:48Yes, it must have been something very important
0:40:48 > 0:40:55because... I was very embedded in the family
0:40:55 > 0:40:58and I'm very proud that I had this childhood.
0:40:58 > 0:41:00Niklas?
0:41:00 > 0:41:05I won't say that I had an unhappy childhood. As a Prince of Poland,
0:41:05 > 0:41:10I was really very well off, the best toys you can imagine.
0:41:11 > 0:41:13Hi, I've got a question for Horst.
0:41:13 > 0:41:18You say that your father didn't sign the paper and that's why you won't condemn him,
0:41:18 > 0:41:21if his signature was on it, would you condemn him?
0:41:21 > 0:41:25What would it take? What proof would it take for you to condemn your dad?
0:41:25 > 0:41:29Yes, I would have condemned him, of course.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Yeah, but if he had signed?
0:41:31 > 0:41:34I think the question is going you're taking refuge in the fact
0:41:34 > 0:41:39that there are not in existence pieces of paper which say,
0:41:39 > 0:41:42"And today I will kill 15,000 Jews"?
0:41:42 > 0:41:44If you were presented with such a piece of paper,
0:41:44 > 0:41:48would your position be any different in terms of saying
0:41:48 > 0:41:51as a son you have a duty to defend your father?
0:41:51 > 0:41:56Of course it would be different but it... It would be different
0:41:56 > 0:42:00but I cannot imagine that one paper exists.
0:42:00 > 0:42:04My father did everything what he could do to save the population
0:42:04 > 0:42:07and my father is now... In these days,
0:42:07 > 0:42:12the difficulties between Ukrainians is really venerated there.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23As we met in the Purcell Room,
0:42:23 > 0:42:25Ukraine was engaged in its own struggle
0:42:25 > 0:42:27as to whether it would look east towards Russia
0:42:27 > 0:42:30or west towards the European Union.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33Some of the protesters voiced an age old hatred of Russia
0:42:33 > 0:42:35and for that, they and the group as a whole,
0:42:35 > 0:42:39which included writers, students and human-rights activists,
0:42:39 > 0:42:41were accused of being fascists and neo-Nazis.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45It was as if the past had returned to haunt the present
0:42:45 > 0:42:48because there is a link between contemporary events in the Ukraine
0:42:48 > 0:42:53and the period when Horst's father was in charge of District Galicia.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57IN GERMAN
0:43:25 > 0:43:29This is where Horst's father was based, in what's now called Lviv,
0:43:29 > 0:43:32the Germans call it Lemberg, the Poles know it as Lwow.
0:43:32 > 0:43:36The city's name reflects the changes in the region and the tensions.
0:43:37 > 0:43:39The city is at the heart of this story
0:43:39 > 0:43:43because the killings that link the three of us, me, Niklas and Horst,
0:43:43 > 0:43:48are the events of August 1942 - the Grossaktion, as it's called -
0:43:48 > 0:43:51when the Jewish population was almost entirely exterminated.
0:43:55 > 0:43:59Before 1942, this city was an important centre of Jewish life,
0:43:59 > 0:44:01a life that's now totally vanished.
0:44:02 > 0:44:04This was my grandfather's hometown.
0:44:06 > 0:44:10What I hadn't appreciated was how large a family my grandfather had left behind.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13In fact, there was a vast family,
0:44:13 > 0:44:17more than 80 individuals, and I didn't know that of those 80
0:44:17 > 0:44:23who were alive in 1939, he was the only one still alive in 1945.
0:44:41 > 0:44:45The building that we're in was the Parliament of Galicia,
0:44:45 > 0:44:48in the Austro-Hungarian empire,
0:44:48 > 0:44:51and then in 1919 when the Poles took over,
0:44:51 > 0:44:55it then became the Jan Kazimierz University,
0:44:55 > 0:44:58until September '39, then the Soviets came.
0:44:58 > 0:45:03Then on July 1941,
0:45:03 > 0:45:09the Germans came, and in to this room came
0:45:09 > 0:45:12your father, Nik, as Governor-General,
0:45:12 > 0:45:15and your father as Governor of Galicia,
0:45:15 > 0:45:18and they stood on the platform,
0:45:18 > 0:45:23they stood on the stage and your father made a speech
0:45:23 > 0:45:25in which he announced, essentially,
0:45:25 > 0:45:29the implementation of the Final Solution in Galicia,
0:45:29 > 0:45:33and within a month, 75,000 people at least had died.
0:45:33 > 0:45:38I would like to have this place which my father had had
0:45:38 > 0:45:43and now, Horst, you have to hear what he was saying.
0:45:49 > 0:45:52And he addressed your father
0:45:52 > 0:45:55at first saying,
0:45:55 > 0:46:01"Party comrade Wachter, I have to say, you did well.
0:46:01 > 0:46:06"Lemberg is once again a true and proud German city.
0:46:06 > 0:46:10"I do not speak about the Jews that we still have here."
0:46:10 > 0:46:13And then hear at this.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17"We will deal with them of course.
0:46:17 > 0:46:19"By the way..."
0:46:19 > 0:46:23Now it's my well-educated funny father,
0:46:23 > 0:46:25and he's doing a joke.
0:46:26 > 0:46:31"By the way, I hardly saw any of them today.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33"What has happened?
0:46:33 > 0:46:37"I was told that this city used to swarm with
0:46:37 > 0:46:41"thousands and thousands of these flat-footed Indians
0:46:41 > 0:46:43"but I could see none.
0:46:43 > 0:46:48"You have not done anything nasty to them, have you?"
0:46:48 > 0:46:52And the protocol wrote "great hilarity."
0:46:53 > 0:46:57And you are still pretending you didn't find anything
0:46:57 > 0:47:02which would accuse your father of being involved in this.
0:47:02 > 0:47:06This I won't understand. As you know, I like you personally,
0:47:06 > 0:47:11but I don't like your brains and your thoughts you have in your brain.
0:47:11 > 0:47:13Horst, what would you need to see
0:47:13 > 0:47:16to come to a different perspective of your father?
0:47:16 > 0:47:21I don't think... I think all the guilty ones have been judged.
0:47:21 > 0:47:25And I know that his father was some... Some...
0:47:25 > 0:47:30He was a theatre man. He liked to make himself, hmm...
0:47:33 > 0:47:36All these remarks he made and my father did never
0:47:36 > 0:47:40avoided the personal contact with his father.
0:47:40 > 0:47:44That was the reason before and I don't know of any anti-Semitic...
0:47:44 > 0:47:48Anti-Semitic speech my father did, I don't know about.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51Maybe he was just more careful?
0:47:51 > 0:47:55Well, he was, he... He would... That was not his style.
0:47:55 > 0:47:59He was a completely other style of man, like his father.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02The result was the same.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04He sat... He sat there in this room.
0:48:04 > 0:48:07Yes, I'm very sorry about this, but, hmm...
0:48:07 > 0:48:10Why? Why, if nothing... If he didn't do anything, why are you sorry about it?
0:48:10 > 0:48:12He...
0:48:13 > 0:48:15I mean, what should he have done?
0:48:15 > 0:48:19He should have jumped up, as you said and said, "No.
0:48:19 > 0:48:21"I'm against it and..."
0:48:21 > 0:48:23Horst.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26- No-one was responsible for what happened.- Yes.
0:48:26 > 0:48:28You have all the names of who are responsible.
0:48:28 > 0:48:32You have all the names, all the details, they are all documented.
0:48:32 > 0:48:34But the lists include your father.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37No, they don't include my father.
0:48:38 > 0:48:39They don't include my father.
0:48:41 > 0:48:45You cannot say this, that's all imagination for me.
0:48:45 > 0:48:47Do you... Do you want me to show you a document
0:48:47 > 0:48:49- that lists your father?- Yes.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51- OK, stay there.- OK.
0:48:51 > 0:48:55If you... If you show it to me, but not speeches.
0:48:55 > 0:48:57No, document.
0:48:57 > 0:48:59I found it last week.
0:49:01 > 0:49:03OK.
0:49:03 > 0:49:06This is a Polish document.
0:49:06 > 0:49:08I just found it on Friday.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11- 46. - "28th of September, 1946."
0:49:11 > 0:49:13- Uh-huh. - "To the military governor,
0:49:13 > 0:49:16"United States zone," OK?
0:49:16 > 0:49:19"I, being the authorised representative
0:49:19 > 0:49:24"of the Government of Poland, request on behalf of my government
0:49:24 > 0:49:28"that Wachter be delivered to Poland for trial
0:49:28 > 0:49:31"for the here and after described offences.
0:49:31 > 0:49:35"One, subject is responsible for mass murder,
0:49:35 > 0:49:37"shooting and executions,
0:49:37 > 0:49:40"under his command as Governor of District Galicia,
0:49:40 > 0:49:43"more than 100,000 Polish citizens lost their lives."
0:49:49 > 0:49:51- Now... - Yes. Of course.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57That is made in September '46, I didn't know about this.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02But still these are very general...
0:50:02 > 0:50:06supposition of being mass murders...
0:50:06 > 0:50:10under his command as Governor. Under his command...
0:50:10 > 0:50:14That's... That's all generalisations for me.
0:50:14 > 0:50:19Horst, like my father, he was a representative of Hitler
0:50:19 > 0:50:24and as a Governor-General, so he was politically speaking,
0:50:24 > 0:50:30responsible for every dead Jew or every Polish.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33It's the same with you, with your father.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37He was a Governor of Galicia and therefore he was
0:50:37 > 0:50:42politically responsible for all the mass murders.
0:50:42 > 0:50:45That mass murders were geheime Reichssache.
0:50:45 > 0:50:48They were special things and he had no influence.
0:50:48 > 0:50:52I saw... I see this is Soviet. This is a Soviet...
0:50:52 > 0:50:54It's Polish and American.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56Yes, but the...
0:50:56 > 0:51:01That was... Poland was under Soviet rule at that time already.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04It's a request to the Americans to assist, and the Americans assisted.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06The Americans were not friendly with the Soviets.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08Don't hide into the little corners.
0:51:08 > 0:51:10- No, but this is a general... - I'm asking you...
0:51:10 > 0:51:12Horst, we'll come back to this.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15I'm asking you what is really motivating you?
0:51:15 > 0:51:19Why are you resisting with every fibre in your body,
0:51:19 > 0:51:21the terrible evidence with which you are confronted?
0:51:23 > 0:51:29Because I have so many documents from people who knew him personally
0:51:29 > 0:51:33and who said he was a decent... He had a decent character.
0:51:33 > 0:51:39And he tried everything that he could do to prevent the things that would happen.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42I want to know what really was going on...
0:51:42 > 0:51:46What was really going on was that your father was sitting there
0:51:46 > 0:51:51in front of his father. His father was announcing that 100,000 Jews
0:51:51 > 0:51:54are going to be murdered and your father sat there,
0:51:54 > 0:51:56no expression on his face.
0:51:58 > 0:52:02Clapping in this room, going off and doing his work.
0:52:02 > 0:52:05That's what your father did, that's what he did.
0:52:05 > 0:52:08Yes. I presume he did like that.
0:52:08 > 0:52:11So that is terrible evidence.
0:52:11 > 0:52:14But this is a speech. This is a rhetorical speech.
0:52:14 > 0:52:16A highly rhetorical speech.
0:52:16 > 0:52:21Hmm, and this was a political session here from somebody...
0:52:21 > 0:52:24Horst, what happened two weeks later?
0:52:24 > 0:52:27On the 17th of August?
0:52:27 > 0:52:32You've shown... You've shown me the letter your father wrote to your mother.
0:52:32 > 0:52:37"I'm coming back to Lemberg. The Grossaktion is beginning."
0:52:37 > 0:52:40He knew all about it, and it happened.
0:52:41 > 0:52:4675,000 people were killed, so that's a father to love?
0:52:47 > 0:52:51That's a man one can love? An honourable man? A decent man?
0:52:51 > 0:52:55I'm going back to help kill 75,000 people,
0:52:55 > 0:52:57that's an honourable thing to do?
0:52:57 > 0:53:00Of course it's not an honourable thing.
0:53:02 > 0:53:07But it was... The system was something
0:53:07 > 0:53:11for us today which you can't imagine.
0:53:11 > 0:53:12Hmm...
0:53:13 > 0:53:19The deaths were so near to everybody that it was nothing to...
0:53:19 > 0:53:21Life of man was just nothing.
0:53:27 > 0:53:30Horst fills me with despair.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33I cannot accept that approach.
0:53:35 > 0:53:37It's not just the lawyer in me
0:53:37 > 0:53:41concerned with how one treats evidence,
0:53:41 > 0:53:43it's much more personal than that.
0:53:43 > 0:53:46When I hear him speak of his father's good character and actions,
0:53:46 > 0:53:50I hear him to be justifying the killing of my grandfather's entire family.
0:54:02 > 0:54:06This is where my grandfather's family came from
0:54:06 > 0:54:09and this is where most of that family perished.
0:54:42 > 0:54:45Do you ask yourself why we came here together?
0:54:47 > 0:54:52Hmm... No, I had no problems to understand.
0:54:52 > 0:54:58We...commemorate what happened and...
0:55:01 > 0:55:05..we confronted what happened
0:55:05 > 0:55:11and we feel sad and ashamed, maybe.
0:55:11 > 0:55:14And we ask ourselves questions.
0:55:14 > 0:55:17How it could be...
0:55:17 > 0:55:19that such things happened in the past and continue to happen today?
0:55:19 > 0:55:24It's the point, because they continue everywhere...
0:55:25 > 0:55:29..and we have no means to stop them,
0:55:29 > 0:55:33we have to accept them.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35Well, that's where you and I disagree,
0:55:35 > 0:55:37that's where you and I disagree. I think...
0:55:41 > 0:55:44There are things that can be done to stop things from happening
0:55:44 > 0:55:46and it's about in part individual responsibility.
0:55:46 > 0:55:48It's where you and I... You and I disagree.
0:55:48 > 0:55:53We have this small... We are small...
0:55:53 > 0:55:56just like points in the whole history.
0:55:56 > 0:56:00It's like the soldiers who fought here, they can't stand up and say,
0:56:00 > 0:56:02"Oh, I don't want to fight."
0:56:04 > 0:56:07They... They would be executed immediately.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10So there's no option but to kill and carry on killing?
0:56:13 > 0:56:16There are options... I mean, there's other ways
0:56:16 > 0:56:20which are in your power to do something.
0:56:20 > 0:56:21But this was inevitable.
0:56:21 > 0:56:25- Your father had no option. - For him, he had no option
0:56:25 > 0:56:27to change this thing.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29And because it was inevitable he had no responsibility?
0:56:32 > 0:56:37Well, that's a difficult question, about responsibility.
0:56:40 > 0:56:46Well, I don't think that he... He ordered to burn down this room.
0:56:46 > 0:56:51I mean this, I refuse to say that he gave orders to burn down here.
0:56:55 > 0:56:58I don't see my father in here, I mean...
0:57:02 > 0:57:06I can't see walking, my father here, around here with his uniform,
0:57:06 > 0:57:10and saying, "Oh, well, well done" and things like that.
0:57:10 > 0:57:12I can't see him like this.
0:57:14 > 0:57:15It's done.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20But you...
0:57:21 > 0:57:25I mean, in this room you have to have ideas,
0:57:25 > 0:57:30great ideas, I'm not pessimistic, and you have to see...
0:57:31 > 0:57:35..what was really going on building this up and...
0:57:36 > 0:57:43..because for me this is built for eternity, you can see the enormous walls there.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46The columns, the thickness, and for me,
0:57:46 > 0:57:50this idea is much stronger than destroyed surfaces.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53300 years filled
0:57:53 > 0:57:56with people and singing and prayer and life
0:57:56 > 0:57:58and colour and hair and jewellery.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00- Yes, that is my... - And it's all gone.
0:58:00 > 0:58:02- It all went in a single day. - No, it's not gone.
0:58:02 > 0:58:04It's still there.
0:58:04 > 0:58:08It isn't gone because that is my main interest,
0:58:08 > 0:58:13why I agreed to come here, to go back to 300 years ago,
0:58:13 > 0:58:18not be stuck in what happened 70 years ago.
0:58:18 > 0:58:21It'll never be... It'll never be filled again, this place.
0:58:21 > 0:58:23You don't know.
0:58:23 > 0:58:27Maybe it will. I'm not so pessimistic than you.
0:58:33 > 0:58:35This will be filled up.
0:58:35 > 0:58:38I can tell you because it's so great..
0:58:39 > 0:58:44..that this period will be gone and there will be a new period coming up
0:58:44 > 0:58:47which can...
0:58:52 > 0:58:54Can see it again, now it's...
0:58:55 > 0:58:59..only a few people who can see this.
0:58:59 > 0:59:01But I think... I can see it.
0:59:02 > 0:59:05See, I don't want to get stuck somewhere.
0:59:08 > 0:59:10Full of shame and full of...
0:59:13 > 0:59:14Full of...
0:59:21 > 0:59:24I'm proud to be here.
0:59:31 > 0:59:37I always imagine when was the last Shabbat celebration before they all
0:59:37 > 0:59:39were killed.
0:59:39 > 0:59:42What if they talked to each other?
0:59:42 > 0:59:45"How can we hide? How can we go into the woods?"
0:59:45 > 0:59:50or "Do we have any relatives who can hide us somewhere in the countryside?"
0:59:50 > 0:59:55All this kind of stuff, always running through my brain,
0:59:55 > 0:59:56the only thing.
0:59:56 > 1:00:01And this makes me furious and I will never forgive this.
1:00:03 > 1:00:05So it was the synagogue of my family.
1:00:05 > 1:00:07- Yeah?- Yeah.
1:00:07 > 1:00:08- This was...- Here your family was?
1:00:08 > 1:00:09Yeah.
1:00:11 > 1:00:14- You didn't know that?- No.
1:00:14 > 1:00:17You always ask me what about my feeling, no.
1:00:17 > 1:00:24What's your feeling standing here in this synagogue where your family used to be?
1:00:24 > 1:00:26It's a very heavy feeling.
1:00:26 > 1:00:30- It's a very, very heavy feeling. - What means heavy?
1:00:30 > 1:00:32It means that my imagination
1:00:32 > 1:00:35is running very strongly.
1:00:35 > 1:00:39I imagine the moment in July, 1941,
1:00:39 > 1:00:42that the Germans came into the town,
1:00:42 > 1:00:46and like you, I imagine the fear,
1:00:46 > 1:00:49the mayhem and the certainty that they knew what was coming
1:00:49 > 1:00:51because they had contacts with Vienna
1:00:51 > 1:00:54and with Germany and they knew what was on its way,
1:00:54 > 1:00:57and so for me it boils down to a number of individuals that I never met.
1:00:57 > 1:01:00I don't even have photographs of these people.
1:01:00 > 1:01:02Nothing, nothing remains, nothing,
1:01:02 > 1:01:04but this would have been the place...
1:01:04 > 1:01:08Where have they been the last time you have heard about this,
1:01:08 > 1:01:12about those family? When...
1:01:12 > 1:01:14My grandfather never talked to me about it.
1:01:14 > 1:01:16- He refused to talk to me about it. - You also didn't dare to ask.
1:01:16 > 1:01:18I didn't dare to ask.
1:01:18 > 1:01:21So, and when they perished,
1:01:21 > 1:01:24they were still living around here using this synagogue.
1:01:24 > 1:01:28Yes, well, the synagogue was burnt down in July '41.
1:01:28 > 1:01:34The ghetto was created in the autumn
1:01:34 > 1:01:39and they lived in the ghetto in '42
1:01:39 > 1:01:42and they were then rounded up,
1:01:42 > 1:01:46taken to a wood, where there were sand pits
1:01:46 > 1:01:50that were used to repair the road from Zolkiew to Lemberg
1:01:50 > 1:01:54and they put a plank at the end of the sand pit
1:01:54 > 1:02:00and each of the 3,500 walked along the plank,
1:02:00 > 1:02:04they were shot and they fell in.
1:02:04 > 1:02:06But the story doesn't end there.
1:02:06 > 1:02:09That's a kilometre from where we are standing now, they're still there.
1:02:09 > 1:02:11Nothing's changed.
1:02:11 > 1:02:16All the bodies are in the spot that we are going to right now.
1:02:50 > 1:02:53This our fathers did.
1:03:31 > 1:03:34So everyone remains here.
1:03:34 > 1:03:36Nothing has been moved.
1:03:41 > 1:03:43- Horst, you've seen the date over here?- Yeah.
1:03:43 > 1:03:4625th of March, 1943.
1:03:47 > 1:03:50So I'm afraid there is no escaping
1:03:50 > 1:03:54that this action took place on the territory
1:03:54 > 1:03:56and with the support of your father.
1:03:59 > 1:04:03And it contains 3,500 people.
1:04:04 > 1:04:06Including my family.
1:04:12 > 1:04:14CAMERA CLICKS
1:04:23 > 1:04:27Horst, please accept it.
1:04:28 > 1:04:30Recognise it.
1:04:30 > 1:04:35It's also the responsibility of my father in first,
1:04:35 > 1:04:41but your father was as well involved in this horrible crime.
1:04:41 > 1:04:43Here in this place.
1:04:49 > 1:04:50Please.
1:04:50 > 1:04:56He was involved in the system, I know, this is why we're here.
1:04:56 > 1:04:59The system was very, very obstructive.
1:04:59 > 1:05:00- This is...- I never...
1:05:00 > 1:05:05..the place of a mass killing our fathers have been responsible for.
1:05:18 > 1:05:22I want to have the exact date and who were, was responsible,
1:05:22 > 1:05:25who was present here and the name
1:05:25 > 1:05:30of the police officers and I will.
1:05:30 > 1:05:32Why you always want to flee?
1:05:32 > 1:05:34I do not flee.
1:05:34 > 1:05:36I want to see the...
1:05:36 > 1:05:38the reality.
1:05:40 > 1:05:43And we are standing in the midst of a death,
1:05:43 > 1:05:46that is all deaths around us.
1:05:46 > 1:05:50There must be tens of thousands of Austrians lying around here.
1:05:50 > 1:05:52But, Horst, we're not talking...
1:05:52 > 1:05:55We're talking about these 3,500 people.
1:05:55 > 1:05:56We're talking about these...
1:05:56 > 1:06:00I see all of them around here, it's not only those.
1:06:00 > 1:06:02Well, I'm talking about these.
1:06:02 > 1:06:04I'm asking you to focus on these people
1:06:04 > 1:06:07who on the 25th of March, 1943,
1:06:07 > 1:06:12walked from the place where we have just been to this place,
1:06:12 > 1:06:18with the support of the auxiliary police under your father's authority.
1:06:18 > 1:06:20They were made to walk to the end of the plank,
1:06:20 > 1:06:22each person got a single bullet to the head
1:06:22 > 1:06:24and they are in there now.
1:06:24 > 1:06:27There's simply no escaping
1:06:27 > 1:06:29the issue of responsibility.
1:06:29 > 1:06:32Not your responsibility, never your responsibility.
1:06:32 > 1:06:34The responsibility of Otto von Wachter.
1:06:34 > 1:06:38There is no escaping, you simply cannot run away from it.
1:06:38 > 1:06:41You are confronted here with the reality.
1:06:41 > 1:06:46And then I want the exact following of the orders
1:06:46 > 1:06:51from the smallest soldier up to the civil government.
1:06:52 > 1:06:56Do you know who paid the salary of the auxiliary police?
1:07:00 > 1:07:01Your father.
1:07:03 > 1:07:05That was paid by your father.
1:07:05 > 1:07:08He signed off on it, that's called command responsibility.
1:07:11 > 1:07:13Doesn't matter who did the individual act of killing,
1:07:13 > 1:07:16doesn't matter who put the individual bullet in, doesn't matter.
1:07:16 > 1:07:18Well, it matters for me.
1:07:21 > 1:07:25Yeah, but as a matter of moral responsibility and as a matter of legal responsibility
1:07:25 > 1:07:28it's totally irrelevant. Totally irrelevant.
1:07:28 > 1:07:30He signed off on everything.
1:07:34 > 1:07:38Well, he wouldn't have signed much coming here.
1:07:39 > 1:07:43These people, I don't think.
1:08:03 > 1:08:06I see this as a battlefield, you see,
1:08:06 > 1:08:10because at the beginning of the first war in 1914,
1:08:10 > 1:08:16there were these big battles and the soil was full of blood.
1:08:24 > 1:08:28There have been so many killings going on.
1:09:14 > 1:09:19The annual commemoration of Otto von Wachter's Waffen SS Galicia division,
1:09:19 > 1:09:21created by him in 1943,
1:09:21 > 1:09:25includes a ceremony to rebury newly discovered remains
1:09:25 > 1:09:29of German and Ukrainian soldiers who fell in the fields near this chapel.
1:09:53 > 1:09:56IN UKRAINIAN
1:10:03 > 1:10:05WOMAN TRANSLATING IN ENGLISH
1:10:10 > 1:10:13So am I right in thinking the historical role of the division
1:10:13 > 1:10:17remains important today in modern Ukraine?
1:10:30 > 1:10:36We hear Putin say that Ukraine is full of the fascists and Nazis.
1:10:46 > 1:10:48Why are you wearing this swastika?
1:10:50 > 1:10:51WOMAN TRANSLATING IN ENGLISH
1:11:19 > 1:11:22- Now? - Now, yes, he used this.
1:11:25 > 1:11:2819th of February.
1:11:28 > 1:11:2919th of February.
1:11:29 > 1:11:33- Yes.- You don't feel if you have... wear this helmet,
1:11:33 > 1:11:37you don't feel like a German soldier in the memory of the SS?
1:11:37 > 1:11:43You don't feel ashamed knowing exactly what happened under the swastika?
1:11:43 > 1:11:46IN UKRAINIAN
1:12:15 > 1:12:19Did he ever see Otto von Wachter speak?
1:12:19 > 1:12:21IN UKRAINIAN
1:12:26 > 1:12:28If he was to meet the son of Wachter,
1:12:28 > 1:12:30what would he say to the son of Wachter?
1:12:30 > 1:12:33WOMAN TRANSLATING IN UKRAINIAN
1:12:48 > 1:12:51So can I present him to the son of...
1:12:54 > 1:12:56Horst von Wachter.
1:12:57 > 1:13:01Well, I must say this day was the best day for me
1:13:01 > 1:13:05because so many people wanted to shake my hands
1:13:05 > 1:13:08because of my father,
1:13:08 > 1:13:10and saying he was a decent man
1:13:10 > 1:13:15and that's all what I want, nothing else.
1:13:20 > 1:13:23How you would like to introduce yourself beyond your name?
1:13:35 > 1:13:38For sure he is an apologist for the actions of his father.
1:13:39 > 1:13:45What still have in mind, maybe also in his heart
1:13:45 > 1:13:48is a picture of a wonderful man
1:13:48 > 1:13:52who tried the best for the Ukrainians,
1:13:52 > 1:13:54and it's just a lie.
1:13:57 > 1:14:01He is not accepting that his father
1:14:01 > 1:14:06was involved in mass murder.
1:14:06 > 1:14:08He should know better.
1:14:08 > 1:14:11I really despise him like my father.
1:14:14 > 1:14:19In my opinion, Horst will become a new Nazi in the end.
1:14:19 > 1:14:21That is serious.
1:14:21 > 1:14:25Not so serious because he's an old man like me,
1:14:25 > 1:14:28so he can't do...
1:14:28 > 1:14:32only some damage around with his friends and so...
1:14:32 > 1:14:35But not in the... Really not in the public,
1:14:35 > 1:14:39but I don't know exactly if they started also in Austria
1:14:39 > 1:14:42to invite him for public events,
1:14:42 > 1:14:45delivering a speech, showing the pictures.
1:14:45 > 1:14:48This, the Austrians really would like.
1:14:48 > 1:14:51How far does Horst have to go
1:14:51 > 1:14:56for you to say I can no longer have a relationship with this man?
1:14:58 > 1:15:00I think it's nothing left,
1:15:00 > 1:15:05just my decision and I give him a last...
1:15:05 > 1:15:08email to say that's not...
1:15:08 > 1:15:11For me, not endurable any more.
1:15:11 > 1:15:15Do you... Do you think Horst is a Nazi?
1:15:15 > 1:15:16Yes.
1:15:16 > 1:15:20Now I would admit he is really a Nazi.
1:15:20 > 1:15:26Well, I think that Nik... is an egotistic maniac.
1:15:26 > 1:15:29He's just focused on his father, you know,
1:15:29 > 1:15:35and he makes his father most criminal being on Earth and so on.
1:15:35 > 1:15:38But it's because it's his father.
1:15:38 > 1:15:41It's only because it's his father,
1:15:41 > 1:15:43otherwise he wouldn't do this, you know.
1:15:43 > 1:15:49For me, his life is practically annihilated by his father.
1:15:56 > 1:16:01When my father fled in 1945,
1:16:01 > 1:16:04he went with the last members of his government,
1:16:04 > 1:16:10his adjutant and his secretary and the cook to this house.
1:16:11 > 1:16:13There he was arrested,
1:16:13 > 1:16:21the last room on the right-hand side was his so called Andachtsraum.
1:16:21 > 1:16:23His religious room or something like this,
1:16:23 > 1:16:26and there he had hanged all the paintings,
1:16:26 > 1:16:28this Leonardo Da Vinci,
1:16:28 > 1:16:30two Rembrandts, one Raphael,
1:16:30 > 1:16:32they are the most famous four.
1:16:33 > 1:16:37I found it all my life, I found it very crazy
1:16:37 > 1:16:41that my father was sitting in this small house in the end waiting
1:16:41 > 1:16:47to be arrested from the Americans, and there were American soldiers
1:16:47 > 1:16:51who some days before had liberated camp of the...
1:16:51 > 1:16:54Dachau concentration camp outside,
1:16:54 > 1:16:56have seen all the corpses
1:16:56 > 1:17:02and they have heard
1:17:02 > 1:17:05that the Butcher of Poland, which was his nickname all his life...
1:17:05 > 1:17:06The butcher?
1:17:06 > 1:17:08The Butcher of Poland...
1:17:08 > 1:17:13was arriving and they have beaten him up heavily
1:17:13 > 1:17:16so he tried twice to commit suicide,
1:17:16 > 1:17:18but he didn't succeed.
1:17:18 > 1:17:25He was brought to a hospital and then prison and then it was over.
1:17:25 > 1:17:28He wrote in a letter...
1:17:28 > 1:17:33to us, whenever we came, we should go over to this little chapel
1:17:33 > 1:17:35to pray for him.
1:17:37 > 1:17:39I never did it.
1:17:41 > 1:17:43Does it ever make you want to cry though
1:17:43 > 1:17:45when you come back to a place like this?
1:17:45 > 1:17:47No, never.
1:17:47 > 1:17:50- You've never cried about him?- No.
1:17:50 > 1:17:55Does that not seem... Does that not seem strange, he was your father?
1:17:55 > 1:17:57He wasn't my father.
1:17:57 > 1:17:58He was your father.
1:17:58 > 1:18:01Biologically, but not...
1:18:13 > 1:18:17So in the real trial, like it was in Nuremberg,
1:18:17 > 1:18:21I don't think that my father would have been condemned...
1:18:24 > 1:18:28I don't think so because...
1:18:28 > 1:18:32who would have speak... Spoken up against him?
1:18:32 > 1:18:37Maybe it would only be...Jews,
1:18:37 > 1:18:39because of the Holocaust,
1:18:39 > 1:18:45but the SS took all things which concerning Jews on their side.
1:18:47 > 1:18:50Horst's father Otto von Wachter was indicted for mass murder
1:18:50 > 1:18:53but died in 1949 under the protection of the Vatican.
1:18:53 > 1:18:58He was never tried and that allows Horst to take refuge
1:18:58 > 1:19:00in his own long view of history.
1:19:00 > 1:19:02This is my grandfather,
1:19:02 > 1:19:04Joseph von Wachter,
1:19:04 > 1:19:09General of the Imperial Army in the first war.
1:19:09 > 1:19:13Two times he prevented the Russian Army
1:19:13 > 1:19:16to break through the Austrian lines in Galicia
1:19:16 > 1:19:19where we've been around Zolkiew.
1:19:19 > 1:19:23My father expressly wrote that he wants to continue
1:19:23 > 1:19:26what my grandfather did there
1:19:26 > 1:19:28and he chose at the moment he...
1:19:28 > 1:19:31He knew that he was going to Galicia,
1:19:31 > 1:19:36my father chose his coat of arm as a crusade order,
1:19:36 > 1:19:41so this fighting crusade mentality is somewhere in the family.
1:19:45 > 1:19:48The man who built this castle was a crusader
1:19:48 > 1:19:50connected with the Templars.
1:19:53 > 1:19:59And the ground plan corresponds to the temple in Jerusalem.
1:19:59 > 1:20:03I feel like a descendant of Aaron.
1:20:03 > 1:20:06I read the definition of a Jew -
1:20:06 > 1:20:10a Jew is somebody who makes service in the temple.
1:20:12 > 1:20:16And then I said I would be a real Jew here.
1:20:24 > 1:20:26There's an image from the Krakow ghetto footage
1:20:26 > 1:20:28that I can't get out of my mind.
1:20:50 > 1:20:53You see a little girl, she's wearing a beautiful red dress
1:20:53 > 1:20:56and I look at that girl and I think of my own children.
1:20:56 > 1:20:59I think of my own family, I think of my grandfather's family
1:20:59 > 1:21:03and I imagine if he had been in that ghetto he wouldn't have left
1:21:03 > 1:21:04and I wouldn't be here today.
1:21:11 > 1:21:13We're all prone to feelings of group loyalty,
1:21:13 > 1:21:16a sort of tribal instinct that lumps people together.
1:21:16 > 1:21:21We tend to see people as victim or perpetrator, as us or them.
1:21:25 > 1:21:29I understand that tribal instinct and indeed I feel it myself
1:21:29 > 1:21:31when I see that girl in the red dress.
1:21:33 > 1:21:38But as a lawyer I've learnt to mistrust being swayed by such feelings,
1:21:38 > 1:21:42to try to avoid a tribal instinct when it comes to dealing with issues of justice.
1:21:42 > 1:21:45That's one of the reasons we have courts.
1:21:47 > 1:21:52That four great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury
1:21:52 > 1:21:57stay the hand of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies
1:21:57 > 1:21:59to the judgment of the law
1:21:59 > 1:22:04is one of the most significant tributes that power has ever paid to reason.
1:22:05 > 1:22:08IN GERMAN
1:22:32 > 1:22:36But it is also true that Frank was a willing
1:22:36 > 1:22:41and knowing participant in the use of terrorism in Poland
1:22:41 > 1:22:43which led to the death by starvation
1:22:43 > 1:22:45of over a million Poles
1:22:45 > 1:22:51and in a programme involving the murder of at least three million Jews.
1:22:53 > 1:22:55Frank didn't kill anybody personally,
1:22:55 > 1:22:58yet the Nuremberg judgment was unequivocal
1:22:58 > 1:23:01in finding him guilty of the murder of four million individuals.
1:23:01 > 1:23:03It's called command responsibility.
1:23:05 > 1:23:07I don't think that Horst is a Nazi,
1:23:07 > 1:23:09but he's completely wrong about his father
1:23:09 > 1:23:12who was a senior Nazi leader.
1:23:12 > 1:23:15And if he'd been apprehended and tried,
1:23:15 > 1:23:18he would certainly have suffered the same fate as Hans Frank.
1:23:19 > 1:23:23Otto von Wachter's name is on the order authorising the construction
1:23:23 > 1:23:26of the Krakow ghetto, game over.
1:23:26 > 1:23:29Intention, having a decent character, as Horst puts it,
1:23:29 > 1:23:31are totally irrelevant.
1:23:31 > 1:23:35Nuremberg was the first time that the political leaders of a state
1:23:35 > 1:23:38were hauled up in front of an international court of law.
1:23:38 > 1:23:41Churchill wanted them to be lined up and shot,
1:23:41 > 1:23:45but President Roosevelt preferred that a court should dispense justice
1:23:45 > 1:23:47and justice is what Hans Frank got.
1:24:15 > 1:24:17It's the only room in the world
1:24:17 > 1:24:21where I'm a little bit nearer to my father.
1:24:22 > 1:24:24Sitting here...
1:24:26 > 1:24:30..and thinking of being him.
1:24:32 > 1:24:36For about a year to be in here,
1:24:36 > 1:24:41coming from a big castle, driving a big Mercedes.
1:24:42 > 1:24:47Having a lot of uniforms and suddenly he's sitting here.
1:24:47 > 1:24:50There's an open toilet with a small table.
1:24:51 > 1:24:55With a small bed, nothing else.
1:24:59 > 1:25:04There is right now in me a little kind of pity.
1:25:05 > 1:25:07Yeah, here he sits.
1:25:08 > 1:25:11Maybe it's the same place to us.
1:25:11 > 1:25:15So it's a momentary feeling of pity,
1:25:15 > 1:25:20is it amplified today, the anniversary of his execution?
1:25:21 > 1:25:24No, it's not a special day of the 16th.
1:25:25 > 1:25:29Around this time he was already dead.
1:25:30 > 1:25:33In a lot of hours, shortly after 1:00 in the morning
1:25:33 > 1:25:37they got him and...
1:25:37 > 1:25:43the funny thing about when they caught...
1:25:43 > 1:25:45Took my father to the gallows,
1:25:45 > 1:25:48when they opened the door,
1:25:48 > 1:25:52my father was kneeling like this.
1:25:54 > 1:25:56And he said to the priest,
1:25:56 > 1:26:02"Father, my mother... When I was a boy, my mother used to
1:26:02 > 1:26:06"give me the cross every morning when I was leaving for school.
1:26:06 > 1:26:10"Please do this also now."
1:26:11 > 1:26:15And I think this catholic priest was very, very much enjoyed
1:26:15 > 1:26:19and he did it. From behind, you have all these people
1:26:19 > 1:26:20and he was kneeling here
1:26:20 > 1:26:26and I used to say that's a ham actor's exercise.
1:26:36 > 1:26:41Jesus Christ personally has shown himself to my father...
1:26:43 > 1:26:45..and so maybe...
1:26:46 > 1:26:51Maybe he... And it wasn't a ham actor's...
1:26:51 > 1:26:54decision to do this, maybe it's really in those moments
1:26:54 > 1:26:58very near to the gallows, very near to the death...
1:26:58 > 1:27:02I am now about 30 years older than him so he was very young,
1:27:02 > 1:27:05he was 46 years, and you know
1:27:05 > 1:27:09you will not survive the 16th of October,
1:27:09 > 1:27:16and maybe it was really an honest...
1:27:16 > 1:27:19the only and last honest thing he did.
1:27:19 > 1:27:24He wanted to go back to being an innocent child again.
1:27:25 > 1:27:28What he was when his mother
1:27:28 > 1:27:31makes the sign of God on his brain.
1:27:31 > 1:27:34Maybe, the first time I think about it,
1:27:34 > 1:27:38I think he wanted to be a little boy again
1:27:38 > 1:27:42and having done nothing of all those crimes.
1:28:21 > 1:28:23What a last stand.
1:28:35 > 1:28:39Ah, it's a happy room for me, and for the world, I would say.
1:28:48 > 1:28:52And then he's sitting here doing this and that and he starts like...
1:28:56 > 1:29:02Maybe he was thinking, why I didn't stop it.
1:29:02 > 1:29:04Why?