0:00:02 > 0:00:08This programme contains some strong language from the start
0:00:08 > 0:00:14and scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24These animals are extraordinarily cognitively complex.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27They have their own cultures...
0:00:30 > 0:00:34..they're self-conscious, autonomous and self-determinate.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39They have a theory of mind so that they not only know that they
0:00:39 > 0:00:41have a mind, but they know others have a mind.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48They understand that they are individuals who existed
0:00:48 > 0:00:51yesterday and will exist tomorrow because, when you imprison
0:00:51 > 0:00:55a chimpanzee, the chimpanzee understands that tomorrow he's going
0:00:55 > 0:00:59to be imprisoned and, as far as he knows, it's not going to end.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12What we are trying to do is change the way people view
0:01:12 > 0:01:17nonhuman animals because, right now, the line between human beings
0:01:17 > 0:01:20and nonhuman animals is at an irrational place.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23It's, "Are you a human? You have rights.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27"You're not a human, you don't." We're saying that's wrong.
0:01:31 > 0:01:32It's a hell of a war,
0:01:32 > 0:01:36there's going to be a lot of battles in the war, but it's time to begin.
0:01:46 > 0:01:47It's amazing.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Steve, did you ever think...?
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Exactly.
0:01:55 > 0:01:56Exactly.
0:01:56 > 0:01:57- GAVEL BANGS - All rise.
0:01:59 > 0:02:00Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02All persons having business
0:02:02 > 0:02:03for this appellant division
0:02:03 > 0:02:08of the Supreme Court in the state of New York, let them draw near.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12First case is the matter of Nonhuman Rights Project v Lavery.
0:02:12 > 0:02:14Mr Wise, I believe you're arguing.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18Thank you, Your Honour, may it please the court.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20My name is Stephen Wise...
0:02:42 > 0:02:44TYPING
0:02:52 > 0:02:55PHONE RINGS
0:02:55 > 0:02:56Ugh...
0:02:56 > 0:02:57Yup.
0:02:57 > 0:03:03'Just a few things. I just got an e-mail from Stephanie...'
0:03:03 > 0:03:04OK.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07We want to make sure that the judge has as small a number of
0:03:07 > 0:03:11reasons for throwing us out without breaching the merits of the case.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15- Yeah, well, keep me informed. - 'Sure.'
0:03:28 > 0:03:29That's it.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31That is the one that someone gave me in 1979,
0:03:31 > 0:03:35that was the first time I opened this book up and said,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38"Holy smoke, I had no idea that we were treating animals this way."
0:03:38 > 0:03:40MONKEYS SCREAM
0:03:42 > 0:03:44At one point, this was the only book in the library.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47Everything else, really, has gathered as a result of this book.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55When I read Peter Singer's book, I had kind of an epiphany
0:03:55 > 0:03:57because I thought, "Well, why am I a lawyer?
0:03:57 > 0:04:00"I'm a lawyer in order to pursue justice,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03"to try to raise up the underdog," and I thought,
0:04:03 > 0:04:07"I can't think of beings who are more brutalised than
0:04:07 > 0:04:10"this in greater numbers and if I spend my life working on their
0:04:10 > 0:04:12"behalf, I will have done more than
0:04:12 > 0:04:14"anything I could do as a human lawyer."
0:04:15 > 0:04:19So I immediately changed the focus of my law practice,
0:04:19 > 0:04:21almost on a dime. My law partner was stunned.
0:04:21 > 0:04:22HE CHUCKLES
0:04:26 > 0:04:30When I see nonhuman animals who are being horribly used
0:04:30 > 0:04:33and exploited and who are killed by the millions or the billions,
0:04:33 > 0:04:37I see all these lives being taken for frivolous human reasons
0:04:37 > 0:04:41- and it's all they have, just like it's all- I- have.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43And I don't believe
0:04:43 > 0:04:47that there's something extraordinarily exceptional
0:04:47 > 0:04:50about every human being that they somehow have
0:04:50 > 0:04:53something that allows them to be the masters of the world
0:04:53 > 0:04:56and all the nonhuman animals are the slaves of the world.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01So I decided to bring the whole problem to the attention
0:05:01 > 0:05:05of the legal system and then do something about it.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08All we can do is kick the first door open,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to kick the door open
0:05:12 > 0:05:16and have people consider the personhood of nonhuman animals.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24I taught at Harvard,
0:05:24 > 0:05:26the first class at what I call animal rights law
0:05:26 > 0:05:28in the spring of 2000.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32So it was the first time Harvard ever had a course like that.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35People laughed at me and they barked when I went into a courtroom
0:05:35 > 0:05:38and people thought what I was doing was exceedingly odd.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41Isn't this our culture gone awry here a little bit?
0:05:41 > 0:05:45What you do is you erase the line that has been artificially
0:05:45 > 0:05:47drawn between human beings and nonhuman beings.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50- That's not an artificial line. - It IS an artificial line.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53They are not human beings, they don't have humanlike
0:05:53 > 0:05:55intelligence and putting them
0:05:55 > 0:05:59on the same legal standing as a human being, that's insanity.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Without further ado, Steve Wise.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05APPLAUSE
0:06:08 > 0:06:13It is great to be back here. I feel like a Borscht Belt comedian here.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15I have been practising animal protection law -
0:06:15 > 0:06:19this kind I call doggy death cases - for 30 years.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23Dogs who are ordered killed because they were very bad dogs.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28But I thought to myself, "I can save five or six dogs' lives a year
0:06:28 > 0:06:32"and save some other animals too and that should be enough to
0:06:32 > 0:06:34"get me into heaven," but the problem is
0:06:34 > 0:06:36is that, in the United States alone,
0:06:36 > 0:06:40for every beat of my heart, 160 animals are killed.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42So I can work for the next 40 or 50 years
0:06:42 > 0:06:44and I can save the lives of one heartbeat's worth
0:06:44 > 0:06:47of animals. I didn't want to do that.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50So I helped form the Nonhuman Rights Project.
0:06:50 > 0:06:55And now we've been laying the groundwork for the first
0:06:55 > 0:06:58lawsuits that are going to truly,
0:06:58 > 0:07:04seriously take on the idea of whether a nonhuman animal has
0:07:04 > 0:07:06to be a legal thing or whether or not
0:07:06 > 0:07:10it's possible to be a legal person. There's this thick legal wall.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14On one side of the wall are us now, all of us human beings.
0:07:14 > 0:07:18We all have legal rights, we all have the capacity, we are
0:07:18 > 0:07:21all persons, we have the capacity for legal rights.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24On the other side of the wall is the rest of creation
0:07:24 > 0:07:30and every nonhuman animal is seen as a legal thing, rightless.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33So how do you get the attention of the judge?
0:07:33 > 0:07:34How do you say,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38"Hey, I shouldn't be a thing, I should be a legal person"?
0:07:38 > 0:07:41The judge could say, "I'm sorry, is someone saying something?
0:07:41 > 0:07:42"I don't see you.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45"You're invisible, you're invisible to the law because you're a thing."
0:07:45 > 0:07:48And when you start studying the history of the common law,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51you realise that women were not persons for many purposes,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54children weren't, and slaves.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58The word "personhood" is extraordinarily complex.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00In fact, most people thought about it
0:08:00 > 0:08:02when the Citizens United case came down.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04For the first time in their life, it dawned on them
0:08:04 > 0:08:08that an entity that was not a human could be a person.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11So, for example, now humans are persons,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14but so can a corporation, so can a ship, so can a partnership.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17And I argue that these nonhuman animals,
0:08:17 > 0:08:18all four species of great apes,
0:08:18 > 0:08:20all of the elephants,
0:08:20 > 0:08:22all the cetaceans, are so cognitively
0:08:22 > 0:08:25complicated that these beings should be persons today
0:08:25 > 0:08:28and they should have certain kinds of rights
0:08:28 > 0:08:30that are fundamental to them.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33So the purpose of the Nonhuman Rights Project is to persuade
0:08:33 > 0:08:37a court to make a legal punch through that wall.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39APPLAUSE
0:08:40 > 0:08:43Steve, this is a case that presents the opportunity for the first
0:08:43 > 0:08:47time to acknowledge animals as having legal rights.
0:08:47 > 0:08:48Check.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51- That's right. - And do we really want to do that...
0:08:51 > 0:08:54in the face of the potential consequences that would
0:08:54 > 0:08:56flow from it?
0:08:56 > 0:08:59I'm just talking about the very few animals that we're thinking of
0:08:59 > 0:09:01at the beginning.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04We're talking about apes, we're talking about cetaceans,
0:09:04 > 0:09:07- we're talking about elephants. - And why those?
0:09:07 > 0:09:09Why are those going to be a different set?
0:09:09 > 0:09:12First of all, they're not native to the United States.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16They don't have a large economic value,
0:09:16 > 0:09:19there's been a lot of research done on them,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22cognitive research that kind of reverberated in ways in which
0:09:22 > 0:09:24we can identify with them.
0:09:24 > 0:09:25The slippery slope moves you
0:09:25 > 0:09:27immediately to the dogs and cats, doesn't it?
0:09:27 > 0:09:29Because if you do that for this one animal,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31you've done it for all animals.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34Well, we're not asking that a chicken have rights or that a cow
0:09:34 > 0:09:36have rights or that they even be deemed legal persons.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40What we're saying is that this gorilla or this dolphin...
0:09:40 > 0:09:41But if the judge lets this happen,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44PETA's going to file a suit the next day and go for chickens.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48And we'll have to see what their arguments are.
0:09:49 > 0:09:50It's kind of terra nova.
0:09:50 > 0:09:55People haven't tried it, so we have to figure out what we can do
0:09:55 > 0:09:58but we know that where they are now is wrong.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07The Nonhuman Rights Project is planning
0:10:07 > 0:10:09on bringing probably two suits
0:10:09 > 0:10:14in 2013 in two states in the United States.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16- These are really...- 'Which states?'
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Two states, we haven't yet chosen those states.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23We have about 70, that's seven-zero, volunteers.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27They're law professors or they're lawyers or they're law students.
0:10:27 > 0:10:31Liz! How are you? LAUGHTER
0:10:31 > 0:10:35So what we want to do is try to figure out, through our work today,
0:10:35 > 0:10:37the way that we're going to win these suits.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40We have to understand how judges think.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44Right, one of the hurdles that we're going to have to overcome
0:10:44 > 0:10:48is the judge saying, "Listen, you're animal welfare people -
0:10:48 > 0:10:51"you have the Animal Welfare Act, you have humane slaughter.
0:10:51 > 0:10:52"Why isn't that enough?"
0:10:52 > 0:10:56That raises a whole other issue, which is -
0:10:56 > 0:10:58how do we characterise this case?
0:10:58 > 0:11:00Because if I am the other side,
0:11:00 > 0:11:02I want to characterise it exactly in that way.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05"Hey, Judge, this is an animal case," and we're saying,
0:11:05 > 0:11:07"Hey, Judge, this is a civil liberties case."
0:11:07 > 0:11:09This is not an animal welfare case.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12- This is a "human rights" case. - Right.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16Because no court has ever been asked to decide to what degree
0:11:16 > 0:11:19a nonhuman animal should be entitled to equality because of...
0:11:19 > 0:11:22- because we're like them.- Right.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26You know, the animals that we're looking at most closely
0:11:26 > 0:11:29are the different species of great apes because they're really,
0:11:29 > 0:11:33really smart, so I'm looking to speak to the world's experts in...
0:11:34 > 0:11:37..in those areas, all the people who study those specific animals.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39Especially the cognition.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42Those are the people that I'm trying to track down.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54CHIMPS WHOOP
0:11:57 > 0:12:00Hey, Tatu, Tatu.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04She's saying "milk".
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Who wants milk? Can you sign?
0:12:10 > 0:12:12"Tatu."
0:12:12 > 0:12:15What colour is the milk? Do you remember?
0:12:17 > 0:12:20White, yes. You're so smart!
0:12:22 > 0:12:24TATU WHOOPS SHE MIMICS
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Tatu was cross-fostered by Allen and Trixie Gardner,
0:12:32 > 0:12:36so when she was just two days old, she joined this cross-fostering
0:12:36 > 0:12:40project, meaning that she was raised exactly like a human child.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45She learned to use spoons, she sat in a high chair, she wore bibs,
0:12:45 > 0:12:49she learned to use the potty, she had a bath every night.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54So, in that environment, from the humans she acquired her signs.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05The sign language stuff is really nice evidence for the project
0:13:05 > 0:13:08Steven's doing.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10When people see the chimps signing,
0:13:10 > 0:13:13they see nonhumans in a completely different light,
0:13:13 > 0:13:17cos they're like, "Wait a minute, they just said something."
0:13:20 > 0:13:22- Hello.- Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you.- Yeah.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24Thanks for helping us.
0:13:24 > 0:13:25I'm Steve's wife, Gail. Hi, how are you?
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Well, I actually went to a talk many years ago
0:13:28 > 0:13:30and it was the beginning of you talking about this stuff.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Yeah, we used to talk about what we were thinking of doing and then what
0:13:33 > 0:13:35we were planning on doing, and now
0:13:35 > 0:13:37we talk about what we're doing. Yes.
0:13:37 > 0:13:38I'm really interested in the signing,
0:13:38 > 0:13:42what sort of signing has gone on since the two chimpanzees
0:13:42 > 0:13:43have moved here.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45- Well...- Between themselves and with others too.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Yeah, they're signing with the other chimps. I'm excited. Yeah.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53- TATU PANTS - That's Tatu.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00- She's saying, "Chase, chase." - Just like that? That's "chase"?
0:14:00 > 0:14:01That's "chase".
0:14:01 > 0:14:05This is "coffee", so you've got to be careful!
0:14:05 > 0:14:06Yeah, interesting.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10Now she's saying, "Black, black." Black's her favourite colour.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15- Uh-huh.- You can see black clothes, the water and the trees
0:14:15 > 0:14:19and then she's signing "tree". So different than where they were.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22It's not freedom by any stretch of the means, but still...
0:14:24 > 0:14:27You know, they're all institutionalised in research
0:14:27 > 0:14:29or in captive situations,
0:14:29 > 0:14:31so they have the need to be close
0:14:31 > 0:14:33to caging and to be in a confined space.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35You know, they don't climb trees,
0:14:35 > 0:14:38they don't use some of the things we have here.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40We'll go take a look at the island areas.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43You know, it's outdoor space without bars over your head, but...
0:14:43 > 0:14:44That's OK because it's there
0:14:44 > 0:14:47- and they want it, they have it. - Autonomy.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50- Autonomy is what I talk about because we value it so much.- We do.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53And when we punish people, we punish them by taking away
0:14:53 > 0:14:57their autonomy and that's really what putting you in prison is.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00It's stripping you of your autonomy in every way.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03And that's a terrible, terrible punishment for you.
0:15:03 > 0:15:04Breaks my heart.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22In Japan, there was a chimpanzee colony
0:15:22 > 0:15:24and then the place built
0:15:24 > 0:15:27a kind of lab that jutted into the place
0:15:27 > 0:15:30where the chimpanzees were outside.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33And then they had computer terminals inside and outside
0:15:33 > 0:15:37and that's where they have the experiments about the memory.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40They, like, flash something on the screen for, like, a quarter second.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42They'll flash a series of numbers and then they cover up
0:15:42 > 0:15:47the numbers in, like, a tenth of a second and then the chimpanzees can
0:15:47 > 0:15:50then recall what the numbers were and press them in the right order.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53I did that, I was not as good as the chimpanzees.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12I know you want to see him. I KNOW you want to see him.
0:16:14 > 0:16:19- When he's ready. We can only go to people when they're ready.- OK.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25He would like to learn a click language.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28If we knew a click language, we could probably...
0:16:28 > 0:16:30instil it in Tika.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32YELPING
0:16:34 > 0:16:38You can see that Kanzi's already asking for you to talk to him.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40You want me to come in and see you?
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Yeah, he wants me to come in and see him right now.
0:16:50 > 0:16:52- OK, go ahead. - MACHINE:- 'Zoo, ball.'
0:16:55 > 0:17:00- 'Question - visitors have ball.' - Do you have a ball?
0:17:02 > 0:17:04Kanzi wants to know if you have a ball.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06Is this the ball or is it a bigger ball?
0:17:07 > 0:17:09Kanzi?
0:17:09 > 0:17:13Come say "big" if you want a big ball.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17Little ball. Is that what you want? You want that little ball?
0:17:17 > 0:17:19Kanzi can understand all kinds of things,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21all kinds of novel sentences.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23Almost anything.
0:17:23 > 0:17:24I'm going to put on my mask
0:17:24 > 0:17:27and we're going to try a sentence for Kanzi, OK?
0:17:29 > 0:17:32Kanzi, could you take my shoe off, please?
0:17:36 > 0:17:38You might need to untie it.
0:17:42 > 0:17:43Good job.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46So he may be coming to you to see if you might help us
0:17:46 > 0:17:48in filing an affidavit,
0:17:48 > 0:17:51talking about your work, especially if we have an ape,
0:17:51 > 0:17:53talking about the cognitive abilities that they might
0:17:53 > 0:17:56have that would then help us persuade courts.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59Are you going to try to make a case that apes, cetaceans and elephants
0:17:59 > 0:18:02are particularly intelligent and different from other animals?
0:18:02 > 0:18:05No, we're just going to make a case that there are certain criteria,
0:18:05 > 0:18:10what I call practical autonomy, and that any animal who meets that
0:18:10 > 0:18:12criteria should then be a legal person.
0:18:12 > 0:18:13Yeah.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15'Banana, juice.'
0:18:28 > 0:18:32I'd want every single known fact about chimpanzee cognition
0:18:32 > 0:18:33- to be in an affidavit.- Right.
0:18:33 > 0:18:37We have to overwhelm the judge with everything that's possibly
0:18:37 > 0:18:38- out there.- Yes.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41And, of course, the fact that Jane Goodall's on our board -
0:18:41 > 0:18:44when we contact someone, remind them that Jane Goodall is on our board.
0:18:44 > 0:18:45Exactly.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49OK, well, we are 100% sure that New York is our jurisdiction.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51And we appear to have four chimpanzees
0:18:51 > 0:18:53who are possible in New York.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56- So who would we go with? - Well, let's start off with Charlie.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58- OK.- Who is his mate? Kiko.
0:18:58 > 0:19:03Kiko is deaf from brain damage when he was abused.
0:19:03 > 0:19:04- Oh!- Yeah.
0:19:04 > 0:19:10And I looked at the YouTube video of Charlie that they put out.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12Punch, punch!
0:19:12 > 0:19:15Actually, they have been on TV, National Geographic
0:19:15 > 0:19:16did something on them.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18Good.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20He and his wife lived in the home with them.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23Charlie, big boy. He doesn't need a diaper, huh?
0:19:23 > 0:19:28I mean, he's 23 years old now, he's got a large enclosure and you
0:19:28 > 0:19:32need to look at that because there is a moral issue here with Charlie.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34He's not where he's supposed to be
0:19:34 > 0:19:38but he is very attached to his trainer.
0:19:38 > 0:19:39Mm.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44I mean, he's living an artificial life, but I'm not sure that we
0:19:44 > 0:19:47- can make a case that it would be right to take him away.- Yeah, OK.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51- It's a no.- How about the ones in the... What's the one in Bailiwick?
0:19:51 > 0:19:54- Merlin and Reba. - Merlin and Reba, OK.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58Merlin and Reba, both acquired from the circus,
0:19:58 > 0:20:00one is male, one is female.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04Let me give you an idea - Bailiwick also has paintball.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07- That's what we had, yeah. - Right, that stuck into my...
0:20:07 > 0:20:09I was looking at the Better Business Bureau
0:20:09 > 0:20:12and on a scale of A+ to F,
0:20:12 > 0:20:14- they give it an F. - WOMAN GASPS
0:20:14 > 0:20:15- Wow.- OK.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Well, I think this is going to send shock waves
0:20:18 > 0:20:21in directions that we cannot even conceive of right now.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24- Oh, absolutely.- Which is the whole purpose of what we're doing.- Right.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27- We're not in there to save two chimpanzees in Bailiwick Zoo.- Right.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29I mean, we ARE there
0:20:29 > 0:20:33but they also represent other nonhuman animals as well.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35- Yeah.- Mm-hm.
0:20:42 > 0:20:43PARROT SQUAWKS
0:21:12 > 0:21:15MERLIN HOOTS
0:21:27 > 0:21:30They said that the other chimpanzee died about three days ago
0:21:30 > 0:21:37and that Reba was 55 and that they only live till 60.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40I think he's been there for seven years with that other chimpanzee
0:21:40 > 0:21:45and now, for three days since Reba died, he's all by himself.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48I'm sure he must be grieving and mourning
0:21:48 > 0:21:50in the way that chimpanzees do.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03That chimpanzee is depressed.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05He's not interested in doing anything, he's just...
0:22:05 > 0:22:07He's just sitting there...
0:22:07 > 0:22:09by himself.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12On the internet, there's all kinds of comments.
0:22:12 > 0:22:13People are saying,
0:22:13 > 0:22:15"How come the zoo hasn't been cited for cruelty to animals?
0:22:15 > 0:22:19"How come the zoo...? How come it's allowed to operate?"
0:22:20 > 0:22:23But it appears to be perfectly legal
0:22:23 > 0:22:27and under the statutes of New York, there's nothing else that we can do.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33Well, with any luck... It's almost May.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35May, June, July, August, September, October...
0:22:35 > 0:22:39Seven or eight months, we have a shot of getting him out of there.
0:22:51 > 0:22:52Pretty impressive.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58I've found Merlin's home.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02I'm already...I imagine him, like, running around here.
0:23:07 > 0:23:08When we did introductions,
0:23:08 > 0:23:12we tried to have a balance of male and female
0:23:12 > 0:23:15because chimps in the wild live in multi-male, multi-female groups
0:23:15 > 0:23:17and male chimps get along very well.
0:23:17 > 0:23:18In the wild,
0:23:18 > 0:23:21they would have a community of which all the chimps are familiar
0:23:21 > 0:23:25with each other but they would go off in groups of two, three,
0:23:25 > 0:23:31four, five, small subgroups in range over many miles, so here,
0:23:31 > 0:23:33they had the opportunity, definitely,
0:23:33 > 0:23:37because the islands are so large that they have their favourite spots
0:23:37 > 0:23:38and they can break apart
0:23:38 > 0:23:42and then they usually come together at night to sleep and for meals.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44So this is the best way that we can replicate that.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46Obviously, it's not perfect.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48This is always one of my favourite sights,
0:23:48 > 0:23:52just like a crowd of chimps together, hanging out.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55I mean, I love that because you see the sanctuary
0:23:55 > 0:23:57and it's so easy to forget their past.
0:24:00 > 0:24:05- REPORTER:- A 37.5lb chimpanzee was chosen last night to make this ride.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10This particular one was selected on the basis of physical
0:24:10 > 0:24:13and psychological characteristics.
0:24:21 > 0:24:26- MISSION CONTROL: - Five, four, three, two, one, zero.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28There it goes, zero.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31There it goes, it's up in the air.
0:24:35 > 0:24:40This success moved the United States closer, by a big step,
0:24:40 > 0:24:44to launch a man into space and bring him back safely.
0:24:44 > 0:24:48CHIMPANZEES SCREECH CAGES RATTLE
0:24:57 > 0:25:00We always like to show people... This cage
0:25:00 > 0:25:02came from the Coulston Foundation
0:25:02 > 0:25:04and we actually paid to have it brought here because we just
0:25:04 > 0:25:08- want people to remember how they were treated.- Mm.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11So there was a shelf that the chimp could sit on, but this wall,
0:25:11 > 0:25:12the back wall of the cage,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14was hooked up to a hydraulic mechanism
0:25:14 > 0:25:16and then could be used to squeeze forward.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18So if they wanted to inject the chimp
0:25:18 > 0:25:22with some sort of experimental substance or to anaesthetize them,
0:25:22 > 0:25:24the wall would come forward
0:25:24 > 0:25:27- and they would just squeeze them up against the bars.- Mm.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30And they lived like this their entire lives.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32Um, decades, and I just can't even imagine it.
0:25:35 > 0:25:39And then in 2002, we were able to move everybody from what was
0:25:39 > 0:25:41the Coulston Foundation to Florida.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44- 266 chimpanzees.- That's amazing.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47It was the largest rescue of chimpanzees in history.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50And now they're here.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53As soon as I saw this place, I said, "Oh, my God."
0:25:53 > 0:25:54I was texting people,
0:25:54 > 0:25:56I said, "I hope we've found the place for Merlin."
0:25:56 > 0:25:58- It is a beautiful place. - It's a spectacular place.
0:25:58 > 0:26:00I can really imagine him being here.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04- So let's assume, you know, Merlin is declared a legal person.- Person.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07Does that mean all chimpanzees in New York State are legal persons?
0:26:07 > 0:26:10- No, it simply just means it's Merlin.- Just Merlin, OK.
0:26:10 > 0:26:15- Well, it's funny, the common law, it moves case by case.- Mm-hm.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18So, ultimately, it would seem like you wouldn't have to
0:26:18 > 0:26:20litigate these things any more. Eventually, why litigate?
0:26:20 > 0:26:23- There's already been ten chimpanzees declared a person.- Right, exactly.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25Right now, we haven't made it public
0:26:25 > 0:26:28which state we've actually picked and which chimpanzee.
0:26:28 > 0:26:32It's really the first salvo in a strategic war
0:26:32 > 0:26:34- that's about to break out in the fall.- OK.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02Where's Merlin? I do not see him.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08Oh, my God, are you serious?
0:27:08 > 0:27:11There was a sign that said there was a chimpanzee?
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Oh, my God.
0:27:14 > 0:27:16He's not here.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20I can't believe this.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25We're two months away and this is, like, the worst-case scenario.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28Oh, my God, Steve is going to flip.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35RINGING TONE
0:27:35 > 0:27:37- 'Hey, Natalie.' - Hi, Steve.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41Uh...
0:27:41 > 0:27:43Merlin died last night.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46- 'You're kidding me.'- No.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50'No. That is the worst news...'
0:27:50 > 0:27:54He was punching himself in the face for some time
0:27:54 > 0:27:57and they finally decided to take him to the vet
0:27:57 > 0:28:02and he had an infected tooth and had a root canal
0:28:02 > 0:28:05and they said he didn't make it on the way home.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08And they had an autopsy and he had an engorged liver
0:28:08 > 0:28:11and it just couldn't handle the anaesthesia.
0:28:11 > 0:28:13'OK.'
0:28:13 > 0:28:15I'm really sorry to break this news to you.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17'Oh, well, yeah, I'm glad you're there
0:28:17 > 0:28:22'and you know and now we have to figure out our next step.'
0:28:26 > 0:28:27A week ago today,
0:28:27 > 0:28:29Natalie went to Bailiwick
0:28:29 > 0:28:33and learned that our petitioner Merlin was dead
0:28:33 > 0:28:37and so we're going back to the two that we had originally been
0:28:37 > 0:28:41- talking about, which are Kiko and Charlie at Niagara Falls.- Yes.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43What are they called now?
0:28:43 > 0:28:46The Primate Sanctuary, they're called The Primate Sanctuary.
0:28:46 > 0:28:48They were, at one time, called Monkey Business.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52Their website advertises 26 monkeys and 18 exotic birds.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54And they say, "Contact us for parties"?
0:28:54 > 0:28:57- "Book a presentation." - "Book a presentation."
0:28:57 > 0:28:59When I first started looking into these kind of people,
0:28:59 > 0:29:02I remember going to their website specifically and just seeing all the
0:29:02 > 0:29:05chimps dressed up in American flags and hats and waving their flags.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08"It seems real, he's my baby."
0:29:08 > 0:29:10He's like, "Coochie-coo..." you know that cutesy talk...
0:29:10 > 0:29:14"It is as intense as a father loves a child.
0:29:14 > 0:29:17"They aren't animals, they are my boys.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20"I'm 'Daddy' and he understands Mommy - my wife Kristi."
0:29:20 > 0:29:22MAN SCOFFS
0:29:22 > 0:29:24It's kind of creepy. THEY CHUCKLE
0:29:24 > 0:29:26I think it's REALLY creepy.
0:29:26 > 0:29:28- This guy, we're not saying he's an evil person.- Yeah.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31He's just essentially enslaved these animals and they...
0:29:31 > 0:29:33I'm not so sure he's not an evil person.
0:29:33 > 0:29:34It's like any kind of kidnapper.
0:29:34 > 0:29:38- It's kind of delusional. - Exactly, Charles, it's delusional.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52There it is right there.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56Let's see if we can see through here.
0:29:57 > 0:29:58KNOCKS ON DOOR
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Is this where Charlie the Karate Chimpanzee is?
0:30:01 > 0:30:05- Yeah.- Can I get...? Can I buy a video?- We don't sell videos.
0:30:05 > 0:30:06Oh, I saw it on the internet.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09No, actually, our facility isn't open to the public.
0:30:09 > 0:30:13We're in the process of building a new sanctuary
0:30:13 > 0:30:14out in Wilson, New York.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16We just got approved on June 26th.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19- OK. You taught the karate? - I did, yeah...
0:30:19 > 0:30:23- Well, my brother owns three martial arts studio in New York.- Oh, I see.
0:30:23 > 0:30:26So it was something that he picked up cos when he was a baby,
0:30:26 > 0:30:28I used to take him there cos I'm working out
0:30:28 > 0:30:30and he just picked him up and looked at him
0:30:30 > 0:30:32and said, "Let's try it."
0:30:32 > 0:30:35It just mushroomed into that, and the best part about it,
0:30:35 > 0:30:36he loved doing it.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40And when you watch his martial arts on, like, YouTube or something,
0:30:40 > 0:30:44you can tell he's having fun because that was what it was all about.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47- How old's Charlie now?- He's 27.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50And we have our other chimp, Kiko, who's a deaf chimp that we rescued.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52- Yeah.- Where was Kiko rescued from?
0:30:52 > 0:30:55It was a TV series called Tarzan Comes To New York
0:30:55 > 0:30:57and Kiko was the chimp in it.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01- Well, you left the keys inside. - So what? Chimps can't ride.
0:31:01 > 0:31:03CAR ENGINE REVS
0:31:05 > 0:31:08POLICE SIREN BLARES
0:31:09 > 0:31:11Drive. Drive.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15'And supposedly Kiko bit someone'
0:31:15 > 0:31:17and ended up getting the tar beat out of him.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20He was hit on the head with a blunt instrument
0:31:20 > 0:31:22and he ended up going deaf in both ears.
0:31:22 > 0:31:24He's got about maybe 10% of hearing.
0:31:24 > 0:31:25It must be so much work.
0:31:25 > 0:31:30It's just nonstop and, I mean, don't get me wrong, I love it just being
0:31:30 > 0:31:36with them so much and they just turn out to be really great chimpanzees.
0:31:36 > 0:31:37- Really?- Yeah.
0:31:38 > 0:31:42OK, well, I won't take up any more of your... Thanks so much.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44- All right, nice talking to you.- Bye.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49He wants to get 'em to a slightly less depressing
0:31:49 > 0:31:52- place in his sanctuary.- That sanctuary's not going to happen.
0:31:52 > 0:31:53But that's the whole thing.
0:31:53 > 0:31:57And I thought maybe he was independently wealthy or something
0:31:57 > 0:32:00but he's trying to raise money for it...
0:32:01 > 0:32:04A sanctuary, he's now up to 31 primates,
0:32:04 > 0:32:07so 29 monkeys of various kinds and two chimpanzees.
0:32:07 > 0:32:09But if his heart is in the right place...
0:32:09 > 0:32:11It is in the right place, I think.
0:32:11 > 0:32:13..which it seems to be at this juncture,
0:32:13 > 0:32:15then he probably wouldn't mind having the chimps
0:32:15 > 0:32:18being taken off his hands, except for one problem -
0:32:18 > 0:32:20he has emotionally bonded with them.
0:32:20 > 0:32:21Well, I know he has.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23So, for him and the way he thinks,
0:32:23 > 0:32:27- that's going to be like taking away his children.- I agree.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31- REPORTER:- Tonight, the entertainment world
0:32:31 > 0:32:33is mourning a popular primate -
0:32:33 > 0:32:35Charlie the Karate Chimp passed away
0:32:35 > 0:32:37at a sanctuary in Niagara County yesterday.
0:32:37 > 0:32:38During his 26 years...
0:32:38 > 0:32:42Well, I got an e-mail that Charlie, our chimpanzee in Niagara Falls,
0:32:42 > 0:32:46one of the two of Charlie and Kiko, died of cardiomyopathy.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48And in fact it was the third blow that we've had in the last
0:32:48 > 0:32:52seven months in which our chimpanzee plaintiffs have died -
0:32:52 > 0:32:55- Reba, Merlin and now Charlie. - Right.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58I mean, captivity, it's just killing these guys
0:32:58 > 0:33:00- so I don't want to take any more chances.- Right.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04We need to locate every surviving chimpanzee in New York State
0:33:04 > 0:33:06and file a suit on their behalf.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08Yes, that's number one.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23That says "Mayfield - 5 miles."
0:33:25 > 0:33:28We're looking for something called Santa's Hitching Post
0:33:28 > 0:33:31- and there was nothing like that. - 'No, I said it was a trailer park.'
0:33:31 > 0:33:34Where did we get the name Santa's Hitching Post? I have no idea.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36INCOHERENT ON PHONE
0:33:36 > 0:33:41Oh, this is a trailer place. And they rent out reindeer?
0:33:44 > 0:33:46There it is. Is it the Circle G or something?
0:33:54 > 0:33:57CAR HORN BLARES
0:33:57 > 0:33:59This might sound like a stupid question -
0:33:59 > 0:34:03we saw somebody on The Today Show talking about reindeer...
0:34:03 > 0:34:06- Yes, we do.- You do? Can I see them?- Sure.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11Actually, this is Buddy coming at you,
0:34:11 > 0:34:13this is one that was on The Today Show.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15- Do both males and females have antlers?- Yes, they do.
0:34:15 > 0:34:19- And the one with no horns, that's the bull.- Oh, cos he'll attack?
0:34:19 > 0:34:22- Yeah, he actually comes after the gate.- Oh, I see.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24- Someone told me you had a monkey. - There's a chimp in there.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26Oh, he's in...?
0:34:26 > 0:34:29He was actually in movies back in the day,
0:34:29 > 0:34:31Project X and all them other...
0:34:31 > 0:34:33- Chimpanzees in the space programme? - Yeah.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39OK, stop flying.
0:34:39 > 0:34:40CHIMPANZEE CHATTERS
0:34:44 > 0:34:47Oh, he must be 30 or 40 years old.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51We had one, she lived to be, like, 60-something years old at one point.
0:34:51 > 0:34:53- Really?- Yeah.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55- Doesn't he get lonely?- Yeah, he is.
0:34:55 > 0:34:57He's supposed to be going to Florida to go on to another farm
0:34:57 > 0:35:01because the last one that was in there was his little friend there.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04She died actually not too long ago, so...
0:35:04 > 0:35:07Just trying to find him a home where he can go
0:35:07 > 0:35:09and be with other animals and, you know, more chimps
0:35:09 > 0:35:10and have more room to run around.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12"Sabo's."
0:35:14 > 0:35:17INCOHERENT SPEECH
0:35:17 > 0:35:19Sabo's Chimpanzees.
0:35:24 > 0:35:26You ought to see him through this window.
0:35:30 > 0:35:35- He's eating, he's eating a banana. - You see him eating now?- Oh, yeah.
0:35:45 > 0:35:46Hi, Tommy.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50He's old. I'm not sure how old he is but he's old.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53- This must be where he lives. - Yeah, this is where he lives.
0:35:53 > 0:35:56He's got a TV to watch and then he's got there, the jungle.
0:35:56 > 0:35:59They're strong.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01Yeah, he won't do much, he just sits there.
0:36:02 > 0:36:06TV PLAYS IN BACKGROUND
0:36:13 > 0:36:17Hey, Natalie. Well, we confirmed Tommy is one sad-looking chimpanzee.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20Thanks for telling me about The Today Show
0:36:20 > 0:36:23because I said I'd seen him on The Today Show and he came
0:36:23 > 0:36:26and showed me his reindeer and then after a while,
0:36:26 > 0:36:29we asked whether he had any other animals around.
0:36:29 > 0:36:33He wasn't the owner, he was a handyman and they said they were
0:36:33 > 0:36:37trying to get him to a place in Florida, that's what they said.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41- We didn't ask anything.- 'I'm really sorry you had to see that.'
0:36:41 > 0:36:45It was him, there were perhaps 10 to 12 empty cages
0:36:45 > 0:36:47and then he was in one of them.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50And about perhaps 15 feet away from him
0:36:50 > 0:36:54was a small TV that was showing PBS, cartoons.
0:36:54 > 0:36:55'Oh, God, that is so...'
0:36:55 > 0:36:59Oh, please. I think we're all ready to cry, it was really...
0:36:59 > 0:37:01It was a very sad thing.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10RINGING TONE
0:37:10 > 0:37:13- 'Hi, Liddy.' - Hey, Steve.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16I am going to the State University in Stony Brook
0:37:16 > 0:37:19where two chimpanzees, Hercules and Leo,
0:37:19 > 0:37:26- are being held for research and locomotion experimentation.- 'Right.'
0:37:26 > 0:37:30If you go on Stony Brook's website, they talk about the primates
0:37:30 > 0:37:34so that's why the chimpanzees must be there.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36- MAN ON VIDEO:- This is Hercules.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38Hercules is helping scientists understand
0:37:38 > 0:37:40the origins of human walking.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45And this is Hercules' colleague, Leo.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48By tracing the markers, the researchers were able to understand
0:37:48 > 0:37:52that chimps swing their hips much more than humans when they walk.
0:38:05 > 0:38:09OK, so I couldn't get any read from anyone
0:38:09 > 0:38:13if they are aware of the presence of Hercules and Leo.
0:38:13 > 0:38:18What I DO know is that people don't want to talk about it, they just...
0:38:18 > 0:38:19They don't.
0:38:19 > 0:38:23- 'Well, we can still file and if they're not there...'- Absolutely.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27And because Stony Brook is the State University,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31we are going to go head-to-head with the Attorney General.
0:38:31 > 0:38:32'OK, let's get moving.'
0:38:38 > 0:38:43- Hello, David, thank you for coming. - Hey, David, how are you?
0:38:43 > 0:38:45- Nice to see you, long time. - Ages, huh?
0:38:45 > 0:38:48- Do you want to do it like this? - Yes, perfect.
0:38:48 > 0:38:50I want to welcome everybody today
0:38:50 > 0:38:53to the Nonhuman Rights Project moot court,
0:38:53 > 0:38:57in which we will be helping Steve in the Nonhuman Rights Project
0:38:57 > 0:39:00practise for our first lawsuits in Tommy's case.
0:39:01 > 0:39:03Mr Wise, you can understand,
0:39:03 > 0:39:05I'm sure, why we're somewhat concerned
0:39:05 > 0:39:07about being the first court in the entire world
0:39:07 > 0:39:10to come to the conclusions that you're arguing for
0:39:10 > 0:39:12and it seems to me what you're saying is
0:39:12 > 0:39:14if I see chimpanzees in environments
0:39:14 > 0:39:16where they're not being appropriately treated,
0:39:16 > 0:39:19where I think they're suffering a basic welfare problem,
0:39:19 > 0:39:22I'm going to go in to get them out to put them
0:39:22 > 0:39:24in environments where I think they are treated appropriately.
0:39:24 > 0:39:28But if I see places where the animals are treated well,
0:39:28 > 0:39:31then I'm not going to bother with them because what am I going to do?
0:39:31 > 0:39:32Move them from one sanctuary to another?
0:39:32 > 0:39:34So I'm only, ultimately,
0:39:34 > 0:39:37focused on chimpanzees that are being treated badly.
0:39:37 > 0:39:39Are being treated in a way that does not respect their autonomy
0:39:39 > 0:39:41- and self-determination.- Right.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43So why is this just not a welfare concern?
0:39:43 > 0:39:45I mean, OK, so the Animal Welfare Act,
0:39:45 > 0:39:46you don't think is good enough?
0:39:46 > 0:39:49The anti-cruelty statutes are not good enough?
0:39:49 > 0:39:50So why don't we just make the laws good enough?
0:39:50 > 0:39:53- Have you tried to make the laws good enough? - We have not tried to do that.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57Have you gone to the USDA and asked them to enforce the Animal Welfare Act?
0:39:57 > 0:40:00We don't think that they're violating the Animal Welfare Act
0:40:00 > 0:40:02or they're violating the state's anti-cruelty statute.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05You know he's in compliance with his licence in every respect?
0:40:05 > 0:40:06We believe he is, that's right.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09And that...that's the problem,
0:40:09 > 0:40:12is that...is that there is no other place
0:40:12 > 0:40:15where we can go for his benefit.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17- So...- Really? You can't go to the legislature?
0:40:17 > 0:40:21Well, that's like saying if I have a problem, I don't follow brief,
0:40:21 > 0:40:24what I do is I go to legislature. I have...
0:40:24 > 0:40:27- Tommy has the right, we argue now... - No, it's not quite the same as that.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30- ..has the right to habeas corpus. - It's actually like saying
0:40:30 > 0:40:34we have a system of laws that regulate the welfare of animals and you feel that they're insufficient.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37What you're talking about is the welfare of animals here.
0:40:37 > 0:40:41So rather than go to the systems that make those laws and try and have them properly enforced,
0:40:41 > 0:40:46you want to come to our court and ask for a right that's never been granted in the history of humankind.
0:40:46 > 0:40:48May I make a suggestion?
0:40:48 > 0:40:50I feel like you've fallen for their trap.
0:40:50 > 0:40:52You've dug yourself a hole and you can't get out of it.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56- I don't see the problem.- You don't feel stuck?- No. Stuck in what way?
0:40:56 > 0:41:01- Now we're arguing over welfare.- The welfare of animals.- That's because YOU keep using the word "welfare".
0:41:01 > 0:41:04And so I figured, "OK, I've lost this judge, I'm not going to get him."
0:41:04 > 0:41:06I think you're wrong.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09- What you've lost is...- Can I give you constructive feedback?
0:41:09 > 0:41:13- Let me tell you what you said back then. - LAUGHTER
0:41:13 > 0:41:14Bailiff, would you remove this woman?
0:41:14 > 0:41:17- LAUGHTER - Remove her from the court.- No!
0:41:18 > 0:41:20BIRDSONG
0:41:22 > 0:41:23CHATTER
0:41:24 > 0:41:26I tell Gail when she plays you,
0:41:26 > 0:41:29"If you just make a run, you should be able to take her."
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Whose side are you on?
0:41:31 > 0:41:34- I have to be on my wife's side. - Well, what about your mother?
0:41:34 > 0:41:36I'm usually on my mother's side,
0:41:36 > 0:41:37unless she's in conflict with my wife.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40You haven't been on my side in several years.
0:41:40 > 0:41:42Oh, now it's getting ugly.
0:41:42 > 0:41:43Now... LAUGHTER
0:41:43 > 0:41:48- So you're really breaking ground here on different levels.- I hope so.
0:41:48 > 0:41:50Cos no-one's ever done it before.
0:41:50 > 0:41:53So we're trying to get all the affidavits in from all over the world.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56And it happened, we got them. We got 'em.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02'So what is the scientific argument that you will be making?'
0:42:02 > 0:42:03Well, the scientific argument
0:42:03 > 0:42:07is based on the affidavits of ten experts
0:42:07 > 0:42:09we have from all over the world,
0:42:09 > 0:42:15Japan, Sweden, Germany, Scotland, England and five more in the US,
0:42:15 > 0:42:18based on 45 years of scientific observation
0:42:18 > 0:42:22of chimpanzee language and communication, culture.
0:42:22 > 0:42:24And it boils down to the fact
0:42:24 > 0:42:28that all three cases, you know, Tommy and Hercules and Leo and Kiko,
0:42:28 > 0:42:30they are autonomous creatures,
0:42:30 > 0:42:32they should be able to live autonomous lives.
0:42:32 > 0:42:37'If you are successful, if you win, what changes? What happens?'
0:42:37 > 0:42:41I kind of view it as a legal transubstantiation,
0:42:41 > 0:42:44where the nonhuman animal would come out of that court room
0:42:44 > 0:42:49looking the exact same, but her legal status would be forever changed.
0:42:49 > 0:42:53Dean, it turned out we had 400 citations. We were, like, stunned.
0:43:00 > 0:43:02So, you know, if you can get to the judge and say,
0:43:02 > 0:43:05"Judge, we're providing you with a pile of these affidavits,
0:43:05 > 0:43:07"because all of these primatologists,
0:43:07 > 0:43:09"all of these scientists have come to the same conclusion."
0:43:09 > 0:43:12It's all science, science, science, science.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15- Is this more advice? - Yeah.- OK.- Sorry.
0:43:15 > 0:43:19- LAUGHTER - I see the wheels spinning in his head!
0:43:19 > 0:43:21No, that's the Jewish mother.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23LAUGHTER
0:43:44 > 0:43:46CHATTER
0:43:49 > 0:43:51Be kind.
0:44:05 > 0:44:08- He was a terrific judge for us to go in front of.- Right.
0:44:08 > 0:44:12- We had not considered that he would on the spot order us in. - Not in a million years.
0:44:12 > 0:44:17To have been able to have a full oral argument on the record...
0:44:17 > 0:44:20- Without another side.- ..that we had, it's just mind-blowing.
0:44:20 > 0:44:25He felt that since it had never been done before, he could not do it.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29But he did everything he could to get us the best possible record,
0:44:29 > 0:44:32to get us up to the appellant courts to be able to present our arguments
0:44:32 > 0:44:35- to those people he felt had the power to do it.- Yes.
0:44:35 > 0:44:39We were thinking of all the different ways that we might end up losing,
0:44:39 > 0:44:42and this turns out to be probably the best way to go.
0:44:42 > 0:44:44- That's totally unexpected.- Yeah.
0:44:47 > 0:44:51- Gosh! I just can't believe he kept helping us.- I know.
0:44:51 > 0:44:53It's a legal victory for us, so we want to make sure
0:44:53 > 0:44:56- that nobody misinterprets what occurred.- Exactly.- Right.
0:44:56 > 0:45:00- So we need to put out a comprehensive press release today. - Today.
0:45:00 > 0:45:04- Do you want to hear what Patrick Lavery said to the New York Times? - Yes.- Sure.
0:45:04 > 0:45:09"Patrick C Lavery, the owner of Circle L Trailer Sales in Gloversville, where Tommy lives,
0:45:09 > 0:45:12"said that he had heard about the petition from reporters' telephone calls.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16"If they were to see where the chimp lived for the first 30 years of his life,
0:45:16 > 0:45:18"they would jump up and down for joy at where she is now.
0:45:18 > 0:45:23"Mr Lavery said he had not seen or been officially notified of the petition."
0:45:23 > 0:45:25He has now.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28- This is the New York Times?- It is.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30Oh, I love that. SHE LAUGHS
0:45:32 > 0:45:34- WOMAN:- 'Kind of a bizarre lawsuit with big implications.'
0:45:34 > 0:45:37At the centre of it is a chimpanzee,
0:45:37 > 0:45:41and the key question is whether a chimp is a person.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43- MAN:- 'Steven Wise of the Nonhuman Rights Project
0:45:43 > 0:45:45'is seeking a writ of habeas corpus
0:45:45 > 0:45:48'on behalf of Tommy, a 26-year-old chimp,
0:45:48 > 0:45:50'arguing that animals with human qualities, such as chimps,
0:45:50 > 0:45:54'deserve basic rights including freedom from imprisonment.'
0:45:54 > 0:45:58- MAN:- 'The group is trying to invoke a right known as habeas corpus,
0:45:58 > 0:46:00'a legal procedure which entitles inmates
0:46:00 > 0:46:02'to have a judge review their detention.'
0:46:02 > 0:46:05'Habeas corpus means "free the body"
0:46:05 > 0:46:08'and it's been used throughout the years to free people
0:46:08 > 0:46:10'from what's been considered an unjust incarceration.'
0:46:10 > 0:46:13- WOMAN:- 'Under the law, a writ of habeas corpus
0:46:13 > 0:46:16'can only be granted to legal persons,
0:46:16 > 0:46:18'so the judge would need to find that chimpanzees
0:46:18 > 0:46:23'have at least some limited rights traditionally reserved for humans.'
0:46:23 > 0:46:26- MAN:- 'The landmark lawsuit was brought on behalf of Tommy,
0:46:26 > 0:46:30'who lives caged on his owner's property in Gloversville.'
0:46:30 > 0:46:33He's got seven rooms. He's got a room that he likes to sleep in,
0:46:33 > 0:46:35another room where he likes to watch his TV
0:46:35 > 0:46:36and there's other rooms he plays in.
0:46:36 > 0:46:38It kind of hurts when you hear allegations
0:46:38 > 0:46:41of people thinking that we're animal abusers here
0:46:41 > 0:46:42and we're not treating him properly.
0:46:42 > 0:46:44'Lavery insists Tommy loves the solitude
0:46:44 > 0:46:47'and that his cage is licenced and inspected,
0:46:47 > 0:46:51'saying he even has colour TV and receives enrichment daily
0:46:51 > 0:46:53'including walls painted like a jungle.'
0:46:53 > 0:46:57- MAN:- 'The owner claims that Tommy is just very happy.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00'What do you have to say to that?'
0:47:00 > 0:47:03I think that if Tommy is so happy,
0:47:03 > 0:47:05I think the owner should move in.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12- Oh, we're in this one today too? - I think so.
0:47:16 > 0:47:17- Oh, my God! It's you!- There it is.
0:47:17 > 0:47:21OK, we'll take three Daily News, one New York Times.
0:47:21 > 0:47:23- OK. 5.- Thank you.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28So, you're trying to argue that chimps should be...
0:47:28 > 0:47:31- Legal persons.- A legal person? - Yeah, that's right.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35It's a tough sell, but not a bad cause.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37What do you guys... What are you guys here to talk about?
0:47:37 > 0:47:41Dirty detective from Brooklyn framed a lot of people.
0:47:41 > 0:47:43- Oh, I think I saw, like, a headline. - Yeah, yeah.
0:47:43 > 0:47:46But this is far more interesting than what I'm talking about.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48LAUGHTER
0:47:48 > 0:47:51So, I suppose just reasoning this forward
0:47:51 > 0:47:54in looking at the corporate personhood rationale...
0:47:54 > 0:47:57It's not just corporations, it's ships, it's partnerships,
0:47:57 > 0:48:01it's counties, it's states, there are lots of nonhuman persons.
0:48:01 > 0:48:02There was a treaty last year
0:48:02 > 0:48:04between the Maoris and the New Zealand government
0:48:04 > 0:48:06where they agreed that a river was a person,
0:48:06 > 0:48:08that in Hindu, an idol is a person.
0:48:08 > 0:48:12I guess I would look to the Supreme Court's basis
0:48:12 > 0:48:15for declaring corporate personhood,
0:48:15 > 0:48:19since that strikes me as much more precedential for American purposes
0:48:19 > 0:48:22than Hindu idols or New Zealand rivers, frankly.
0:48:22 > 0:48:27- And you think this is a better fight, the legal fight?- Yeah.
0:48:27 > 0:48:29Because you expect to win it,
0:48:29 > 0:48:32or because it creates a really good set of discussions,
0:48:32 > 0:48:35- the way Peter Singer does about, you know...- Both.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37Both it creates and we expect to win it.
0:48:37 > 0:48:41- We don't know that we're going to win this first round, but we will win it.- Right.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43I like it. I like it.
0:48:43 > 0:48:45- MAN:- Four, three...
0:48:45 > 0:48:47Here we go.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50I've got to tell you, this is a very interesting case, Steven,
0:48:50 > 0:48:53because any time you kind of equate an animal with personhood,
0:48:53 > 0:48:55it raises all sorts of questions.
0:48:55 > 0:48:57This country has a very sordid history
0:48:57 > 0:49:00when it comes to animals and humans and equating one with the other.
0:49:00 > 0:49:02Of course, back in the early days of this country,
0:49:02 > 0:49:04you had the three-fifths compromise,
0:49:04 > 0:49:07meaning that African-Americans were three-fifths of a man.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10And then, of course, those equating chimpanzees and apes
0:49:10 > 0:49:13and stuff like that hideously so with black people -
0:49:13 > 0:49:16I'd say, "Wait a minute, chimps are chimps, they are not human."
0:49:16 > 0:49:18Obviously, we're not saying...
0:49:18 > 0:49:20we're not saying that a chimpanzee is a human
0:49:20 > 0:49:24and we're not equating chimpanzees with slaves.
0:49:24 > 0:49:28What happens is that the legal pathway we're using,
0:49:28 > 0:49:30a writ of habeas corpus,
0:49:30 > 0:49:35is one that was traditionally used in England and in the United States
0:49:35 > 0:49:38for slaves to try to challenge their status as a thing
0:49:38 > 0:49:42- and move them into the status of a person.- Mm-hm.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45So there's a lot of law out there and kind of a path in front of us
0:49:45 > 0:49:47for how we might be able to do that for someone like Tommy.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50So we're saying when we say Tommy's a person,
0:49:50 > 0:49:53- we simply mean that Tommy has the capacity to have a legal right.- OK.
0:49:53 > 0:49:55Well, I think you've clarified that.
0:49:55 > 0:49:58We certainly wish Tommy and other animals like him well.
0:49:58 > 0:50:00Steven Wise, thank you so much for joining us.
0:50:00 > 0:50:01Thank you very much for having me.
0:50:08 > 0:50:09Justice is heavy.
0:50:11 > 0:50:15This week in the state of New York, we filed the first two cases
0:50:15 > 0:50:16on behalf of chimpanzees
0:50:16 > 0:50:19who were living by themselves and privately owned.
0:50:19 > 0:50:22And today we're filing a lawsuit against Stony Brook,
0:50:22 > 0:50:24which is a university here on Long Island,
0:50:24 > 0:50:28which is imprisoning two chimpanzees
0:50:28 > 0:50:31that they're using for biomedical research on locomotion.
0:50:31 > 0:50:33If you had a message for Stony Brook now, what would that be?
0:50:33 > 0:50:35Free the chimpanzees. LAUGHTER
0:50:35 > 0:50:37Free the Stony Brook Two.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43SHE CLEARS HER THROAT
0:50:43 > 0:50:48The outcome was that he denied signing the petition.
0:50:48 > 0:50:54He was not going to take the step of granting personhood to a chimpanzee.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57It was the personhood issue.
0:50:59 > 0:51:02- I was really expecting to see the judge.- Well, you know, me too.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04- I was, like, raring to go.- I know.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14I haven't heard a peep from the folks in Louisiana.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17- I always forget their names.- New Iberia?- New Iberia, yeah.- Uh-huh.
0:51:17 > 0:51:19- That's funny.- Did you expect to hear something?
0:51:19 > 0:51:23- Well, they claim that they own the chimpanzees at Stony Brook.- Yes.
0:51:23 > 0:51:25New Iberia confirmed they own them.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27They probably want to keep this so quiet.
0:51:27 > 0:51:31- I'm not at all surprised that they haven't surfaced.- Yeah.
0:51:38 > 0:51:42'Well, Jane, the Humane Society has spent nine months undercover
0:51:42 > 0:51:44'at the New Iberia Research Center in Louisiana,
0:51:44 > 0:51:47'one of the largest primate research labs in the country,
0:51:47 > 0:51:52'and she witnessed physical abuse of primates, monkeys being hit,
0:51:52 > 0:51:53'but what was perhaps the worst
0:51:53 > 0:51:56'was seeing animals driven to self-mutilation.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59'The psychological abuse that these animals go through,
0:51:59 > 0:52:02'being in isolation in small cages, many of them
0:52:02 > 0:52:05'are tearing at their skin and their flesh with their hands.
0:52:05 > 0:52:08'They had gaping wounds in their arms and legs
0:52:08 > 0:52:11'and it was just terrible to see them literally driven mad.'
0:52:11 > 0:52:13WILD SCREECHING
0:52:25 > 0:52:27- MAN:- 'Mr Wise, your group
0:52:27 > 0:52:29'has now lost its first three lower court rulings -
0:52:29 > 0:52:32'what are your chances going forward?
0:52:32 > 0:52:33'I'm not going to pretend that we thought
0:52:33 > 0:52:36'that we were going to win at any of the trial courts - we did not.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39'And if we won at this level,
0:52:39 > 0:52:42'it would mean a lot to that single chimpanzee, but it would destroy
0:52:42 > 0:52:45'our chance of being able to get it up to appellant court.
0:52:45 > 0:52:49'And the reason that we want the decision up at an appellant court
0:52:49 > 0:52:52'is that at that point it sets a state-wide precedent.
0:52:52 > 0:52:56'And that's why we want the High Court of a state
0:52:56 > 0:52:58'to make the decision in our favour.
0:52:58 > 0:53:00'So have you already begun the appeals process?
0:53:00 > 0:53:02'The appeals, we're already starting.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04'The brief writing is going to go through the spring.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07'and then we get on some kind of an oral-argument schedule,
0:53:07 > 0:53:08'and up it goes.'
0:53:15 > 0:53:18- WOMAN:- 'A New York appeals court is hearing a legal effort
0:53:18 > 0:53:21'to have chimpanzees declared as persons.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24'Attorney Steven Wise will argue Wednesday
0:53:24 > 0:53:26'on behalf of a chimpanzee named Tommy.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28'His group is also seeking
0:53:28 > 0:53:31'the release of three other chimps in New York.'
0:53:31 > 0:53:33- Oh, boy!- Yes.- I am so nervous.
0:53:33 > 0:53:37- This has been, you know, seven years' worth of work.- Yeah.
0:53:37 > 0:53:41And it's... You know, everything rests on these ten minutes.
0:53:41 > 0:53:46- I still think that one of the arguments is going to be welfare versus rights.- Hmm.
0:53:46 > 0:53:49Why is this not a welfare case if you're claiming
0:53:49 > 0:53:51- that Tommy is not being properly cared for?- Yeah.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53And you have to go back to -
0:53:53 > 0:53:55"That's not what we're talking about.
0:53:55 > 0:53:56"We're not talking about..."
0:53:56 > 0:53:58I can't get suckered into anything other than -
0:53:58 > 0:54:00this is the detention of an autonomous being,
0:54:00 > 0:54:03- we're not talking about how he's being treated.- Exactly.- Yep.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06One thing is with your private animal law cases,
0:54:06 > 0:54:09sometimes you get confused whether it's a cat or dog.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11Just remember that Tommy's a chimpanzee.
0:54:11 > 0:54:14I should... I'll probably remember.
0:54:14 > 0:54:15HE LAUGHS
0:54:15 > 0:54:16ALL LAUGH
0:54:22 > 0:54:24- Steve, how're you doing? - How am I doing?
0:54:24 > 0:54:29Oh, I'm just pondering stuff I've been thinking about for 30 years.
0:54:29 > 0:54:30HE LAUGHS
0:54:40 > 0:54:44First case is matter of Nonhuman Rights Project v Lavery.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47- Mr Wise, I believe you're arguing. - Thank you, Your Honour.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50May it please the court. My name is Steven Wise
0:54:50 > 0:54:54and I first want to thank you for the privilege of appearing on behalf of Tommy,
0:54:54 > 0:55:01who is a chimpanzee who is being kept in a cage in a warehouse in a town called Johnstown, New York.
0:55:01 > 0:55:03Counsel, you want us to grant...
0:55:03 > 0:55:06- Well, you wanted Judge Sise, but now you want us...- Yes, Your Honour.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09..to grant him immediate release from illegal detention.
0:55:09 > 0:55:11- Is that correct?- Yes, Your Honour.
0:55:11 > 0:55:15Tommy in this circumstance is indeed a person who is entitled...
0:55:15 > 0:55:18- YOU assert he is a person - we haven't decided that. - Yes, Your Honour.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21We do assert, that is our position,
0:55:21 > 0:55:24that he is indeed a person and he is entitled then
0:55:24 > 0:55:26to a common law writ of habeas corpus.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29- Now, usually writs of habeas corpus involve adult human beings.- Correct.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32But there are many cases that have involved children.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35For example, slave children in Massachusetts.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38But there are no writs of habeas corpus at least in this state
0:55:38 > 0:55:40that have involved nonhumans. Do you agree with that?
0:55:40 > 0:55:44I do agree with that. This is a novel case in...in that way.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46- However...- Even you in your brief,
0:55:46 > 0:55:48when you talk about individual rights,
0:55:48 > 0:55:52you talk about the fact that along with those individual rights come responsibilities.
0:55:52 > 0:55:56And you don't want us to foist any responsibilities upon this chimpanzee,
0:55:56 > 0:56:01you just want us to determine that he has the opportunity to be free of this confinement.
0:56:01 > 0:56:05The better way to view Tommy would be...
0:56:05 > 0:56:09similar to a human child who has...who has rights,
0:56:09 > 0:56:11you can't put a little child in a cage,
0:56:11 > 0:56:13but doesn't have correlative responsibilities.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15Mr Wise, if I may? Yes, Your Honour.
0:56:15 > 0:56:18Corporations have been treated as legal persons
0:56:18 > 0:56:19in a different context.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22Citizens United, for example, is one case.
0:56:22 > 0:56:28Can you give any example anywhere where, in a habeas corpus context,
0:56:28 > 0:56:32the word "person" has been attributed to a nonhuman being?
0:56:32 > 0:56:35A person is not synonymous with a human being.
0:56:35 > 0:56:39A person means it's someone that the civil law now says counts,
0:56:39 > 0:56:41they're no longer invisible to the civil law.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43So we cited other common law countries.
0:56:43 > 0:56:45An Indian court finds
0:56:45 > 0:56:49that the holy books of the Sikh religion are persons.
0:56:49 > 0:56:50And, in 2012, there was a treaty
0:56:50 > 0:56:55between the indigenous peoples of New Zealand and the Crown
0:56:55 > 0:56:57that designated a river as a legal person.
0:56:57 > 0:57:01So a legal person is a legal concept,
0:57:01 > 0:57:02it is not a biological concept,
0:57:02 > 0:57:05which was the teaching of the Court of Appeals in Bern.
0:57:05 > 0:57:06We know that from your brief.
0:57:06 > 0:57:10Did you ask the owners whether they would just agree to allow you
0:57:10 > 0:57:13to take custody of Tommy and place him in the preserve?
0:57:13 > 0:57:16- And if preserve's the wrong word, I apologise.- Repeatedly.
0:57:16 > 0:57:18We even said that we would drop this case
0:57:18 > 0:57:22if the respondent agreed to move him to a sanctuary.
0:57:22 > 0:57:24And only when we learned he didn't do that
0:57:24 > 0:57:28and he was going to move him to someplace that was just about as bad as where he is now,
0:57:28 > 0:57:32then we started the preliminary injunction which this court allowed.
0:57:32 > 0:57:36So, can we safely assume that the role of this proceeding
0:57:36 > 0:57:40- is to promote the wellbeing of the chimpanzee?- No.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43There's only one goal for the proceeding,
0:57:43 > 0:57:45cos it's a common law habeas corpus proceeding
0:57:45 > 0:57:49to discharge the chimpanzee if it's not unlawful.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51So are you saying that you're not interested
0:57:51 > 0:57:54in promoting the chimpanzee's wellbeing?
0:57:54 > 0:57:56That is not the purpose of our suit.
0:57:56 > 0:58:00Well, then maybe then the key here is a legislative lobbying activity
0:58:00 > 0:58:04to ensure that the statutes are changed.
0:58:04 > 0:58:05That is one option,
0:58:05 > 0:58:10but the courts and the legislatures are co-equal branches here.
0:58:10 > 0:58:12- Yes, we're well aware of that. - I'm sure you are.
0:58:12 > 0:58:14This...this reminds me, for example,
0:58:14 > 0:58:16of the arguments that were brought up
0:58:16 > 0:58:18in the famous Somerset versus Stewart case,
0:58:18 > 0:58:19which is part of New York common law,
0:58:19 > 0:58:21where a slave was made free
0:58:21 > 0:58:25and Lord Mansfield understood that he had a judicial duty,
0:58:25 > 0:58:28as this court does have a judicial duty to change the common law.
0:58:28 > 0:58:33I have to tell you, I keep having a difficult time
0:58:33 > 0:58:37with your using slavery as an analogy to this situation.
0:58:37 > 0:58:42- I just have to tell you that. - Let me suggest this -
0:58:42 > 0:58:45that by referring to human slavery,
0:58:45 > 0:58:47- we are in no way comparing Tommy to any...- I understand.
0:58:47 > 0:58:50But my suggestion is you move in a different direction
0:58:50 > 0:58:51- for the next two minutes.- OK.
0:58:51 > 0:58:55The abilities of self-determination and autonomy
0:58:55 > 0:58:57are supreme values within the common law.
0:58:57 > 0:58:59And these are also the same values
0:58:59 > 0:59:04that the writ of habeas corpus was constructed over the centuries to protect.
0:59:04 > 0:59:08And we ask this court to not necessarily find that Tommy is a person,
0:59:08 > 0:59:10but assuming, as Lord Mansfield did,
0:59:10 > 0:59:13without deciding that Tommy could be a person,
0:59:13 > 0:59:18remanding to the court with an order to show cause and then proceed in accordance with Article 70.
0:59:18 > 0:59:21- Thank you, Counsel. - Thank you, Your Honours.
0:59:28 > 0:59:31APPLAUSE
0:59:34 > 0:59:37We were exceedingly happy with the way the oral argument went.
0:59:37 > 0:59:40We thought the judges had clearly read the brief,
0:59:40 > 0:59:42were familiar with our record.
0:59:42 > 0:59:45They asked really intelligent, probing questions.
0:59:45 > 0:59:48- WOMAN:- You compared Tommy's condition to slavery -
0:59:48 > 0:59:52- tell me why that is.- Well, Tommy is a legal thing right now.
0:59:52 > 0:59:55And while the courts sometimes don't like us
0:59:55 > 0:59:59to compare the thinghood of Tommy with the thinghood of a human slave,
0:59:59 > 1:00:03we apologise and say the only reason we do that
1:00:03 > 1:00:05is because Tommy has a right to get out
1:00:05 > 1:00:10of being held for his entire life in solitary confinement in a cage.
1:00:13 > 1:00:16Chimpanzees should have the sort of rights
1:00:16 > 1:00:19that go along with the sort of being that they are.
1:00:19 > 1:00:21They clearly are never going to be able to vote,
1:00:21 > 1:00:23they're never going to be able to marry.
1:00:23 > 1:00:25I think a rule of thumb would be,
1:00:25 > 1:00:29the sort of rights that, say, a human five-year-old should have.
1:00:29 > 1:00:31Where do you draw the line?
1:00:31 > 1:00:35Could you ever imagine a day when it's regarded as illegal
1:00:35 > 1:00:37to kill and eat a cow, for example,
1:00:37 > 1:00:39because that cow is a sentient animal?
1:00:39 > 1:00:41I can imagine almost anything,
1:00:41 > 1:00:46but I don't know whether that day will come and if so, you know, when.
1:00:46 > 1:00:49It'll be probably my great-great-great grandchildren.
1:00:49 > 1:00:52Do you regard yourself as making step number one towards that?
1:00:52 > 1:00:55We are intentionally making it step one.
1:00:55 > 1:00:57Please welcome Steven Wise!
1:00:57 > 1:00:59CHEERING
1:00:59 > 1:01:01This case is just the beginning.
1:01:01 > 1:01:04Then my dog can sue to get on my couch.
1:01:04 > 1:01:06LAUGHTER
1:01:06 > 1:01:09I didn't say your dog, I said your chimpanzee.
1:01:09 > 1:01:11- What do you have against my dog? - LAUGHTER
1:01:11 > 1:01:14I'll give you my card, you give the card to your dog.
1:01:14 > 1:01:15LAUGHTER
1:01:18 > 1:01:20Listen, if Tommy wants to have rights...
1:01:20 > 1:01:21CHEERING
1:01:21 > 1:01:24If Tommy wants to have rights as a person,
1:01:24 > 1:01:26- he should form his own corporation. - LAUGHTER
1:01:26 > 1:01:29- CHEERING - Thank you so much.
1:01:45 > 1:01:48- What time is it now? - 10:23.- Oh, boy!
1:01:48 > 1:01:50HE HUMS
1:01:53 > 1:01:57I...I still think that the fact that it has taken them eight weeks -
1:01:57 > 1:01:59correct? - this is eight weeks?
1:01:59 > 1:02:05It's a long time. They have to come up with something better than, "This is something for the legislature."
1:02:05 > 1:02:10- Mm-hm.- I think that they are going to have a discussion of personhood.
1:02:10 > 1:02:12- I really do.- I hope so.
1:02:12 > 1:02:14I think they will.
1:02:17 > 1:02:21- Oh, here we go.- Is it there? - Yep, it's here.- Ahh!- OK.
1:02:21 > 1:02:25- Let's go.- I'm shaking. I'm, like, actually shaking.
1:02:25 > 1:02:28"The subject of this litigation is a chimpanzee known as Tommy
1:02:28 > 1:02:30"that is presently being kept
1:02:30 > 1:02:32"in the city of Gloversville, Fulton County.
1:02:32 > 1:02:34"This appeal presents the novel question
1:02:34 > 1:02:37"of whether a chimpanzee is a person entitled to the rights
1:02:37 > 1:02:41- "and protections afforded by the writ of habeas corpus."- OK.
1:02:41 > 1:02:43"Needless to say, unlike human beings,
1:02:43 > 1:02:45"chimpanzees cannot bear any legal duties,
1:02:45 > 1:02:47"submit to societal responsibilities
1:02:47 > 1:02:50"or be held legally accountable for their actions.
1:02:50 > 1:02:54"In our view, it is this incapability to bear any legal responsibilities
1:02:54 > 1:02:59"and societal duties that renders it inappropriate to confer upon chimpanzees the legal rights..."
1:02:59 > 1:03:01Oh! I never thought
1:03:01 > 1:03:05- that their decision would rest on duties.- Reciprocal...- Never!
1:03:05 > 1:03:08- Did we talk about this argument? - Yes!
1:03:08 > 1:03:11- We talked about... - How you can have an incompetent, you can have a child,
1:03:11 > 1:03:15they don't have...there's no reciprocity of duties and obligations.
1:03:15 > 1:03:18- So are they saying that an infant...?- I know.
1:03:18 > 1:03:22- I'm saying the implications... - Or a handicapped person, or a person who's insane?- I know.
1:03:22 > 1:03:26"To be sure, some humans are less able to bear legal duties or responsibilities than others.
1:03:26 > 1:03:29"These differences do not alter our analysis,
1:03:29 > 1:03:32"as it is undeniable that collectively human beings possess
1:03:32 > 1:03:35"the unique ability to bear legal responsibility."
1:03:35 > 1:03:38- Is that it?- That's it.
1:03:38 > 1:03:41OK.
1:03:41 > 1:03:46- Wow!- So, basically, they're ruling against Tommy because of his species.- Yeah.
1:03:46 > 1:03:49It's a very philosophically conservative way of saying
1:03:49 > 1:03:52because animals can't enter into contracts especially,
1:03:52 > 1:03:55essentially you can make them slaves for their whole lives.
1:03:55 > 1:04:01- Right. This is a bad, bad, bad decision.- That's right.
1:04:06 > 1:04:08- WOMAN:- 'In the first case of its kind,
1:04:08 > 1:04:11'a New York appeals court has rejected
1:04:11 > 1:04:13'an animal rights advocate's bid
1:04:13 > 1:04:16'to extend legal personhood to chimpanzees.'
1:04:16 > 1:04:18- WOMAN:- 'Judges in the appeal
1:04:18 > 1:04:22'wrote that since chimpanzees have no legal responsibility for their actions,
1:04:22 > 1:04:25'they can't be granted the same rights as people.'
1:04:26 > 1:04:28- MAN:- 'Meanwhile, the Nonhuman Rights Project
1:04:28 > 1:04:31'continues its legal challenge on behalf of Kiko,
1:04:31 > 1:04:33'a 26-year-old chimp currently residing in Niagara Falls,
1:04:33 > 1:04:35'New York.'
1:04:35 > 1:04:37GAVEL BANGS
1:04:37 > 1:04:38- WOMAN:- Can I ask you a question?
1:04:38 > 1:04:43If Kiko were to be let out of where Kiko is currently being held,
1:04:43 > 1:04:46you're not asking that Kiko go out in the street,
1:04:46 > 1:04:51you're saying that Kiko would still be confined, but in a sanctuary?
1:04:51 > 1:04:55That is correct. Kiko would go to Save The Chimps,
1:04:55 > 1:04:58which is a sanctuary with islands in a lake.
1:04:58 > 1:05:02But he's still going from one confinement which is bad to another confinement which is better?
1:05:02 > 1:05:07Much, much better. And his autonomy and his ability to self-determine
1:05:07 > 1:05:11will be allowed to flourish in a way that it's not allowed to flourish now.
1:05:13 > 1:05:16So Kiko's case was even more interesting.
1:05:16 > 1:05:19What happened there is that the judges decided
1:05:19 > 1:05:21that you can't use a writ of habeas corpus to move
1:05:21 > 1:05:25from one place of confinement to another place
1:05:25 > 1:05:26of...not entire freedom.
1:05:26 > 1:05:30But we had pointed out to them that children, apprentices,
1:05:30 > 1:05:32people with mental disorders,
1:05:32 > 1:05:34there were a dozen or more cases
1:05:34 > 1:05:37in the state of New York where, subject to writs of habeas corpus,
1:05:37 > 1:05:39they weren't just thrown out on the street -
1:05:39 > 1:05:42they were put under the protection of an adult.
1:05:42 > 1:05:45In other words, we didn't lose because Kiko was a chimpanzee -
1:05:45 > 1:05:49their holding also applies to human beings.
1:05:49 > 1:05:53So while we're trying to expand the writ of habeas corpus to chimpanzees,
1:05:53 > 1:05:56the court responds by cutting it back for humans.
1:05:56 > 1:05:58That was not what we were trying to do.
1:06:01 > 1:06:04These decisions so far, we think that both of them
1:06:04 > 1:06:08were legally wrong and are kind of obviously legally wrong.
1:06:08 > 1:06:12They truly don't yet grasp what we're trying to do.
1:06:12 > 1:06:17And clearly there's no agreed-upon reason why we should lose.
1:06:25 > 1:06:27But what we're concerned about is that these judges
1:06:27 > 1:06:30were either consciously or unconsciously thinking,
1:06:30 > 1:06:33"If they're not human, they're not going to have rights."
1:06:33 > 1:06:35And so what they've done
1:06:35 > 1:06:39is they've tried to find some other reason for us to lose.
1:06:41 > 1:06:43That's a frightening thing for an advocate to feel,
1:06:43 > 1:06:46that you're up against someone who either consciously or unconsciously
1:06:46 > 1:06:51believes that there's nothing I can tell them that's ever going to cause them to rule in my favour.
1:07:07 > 1:07:08DOG BARKS
1:07:13 > 1:07:14Let me see.
1:07:22 > 1:07:24TV PLAYS
1:07:31 > 1:07:35- WOMAN:- 'Oh, this is the part where he's going off to school.
1:07:36 > 1:07:39'She's turning her back. This is a sad scene.
1:07:39 > 1:07:42'And they all kiss him and kiss him goodbye.
1:07:51 > 1:07:54'Oh, honey, it's sad. I know it's a sad scene.
1:07:54 > 1:07:57'Oh, hon, they're crying. They are crying on the movie.
1:07:57 > 1:08:01'Oh, honey. And there's trouble. Sad trouble. Bad.
1:08:01 > 1:08:05'Oh, sweetie, with the mother, yes. The sweet mother.
1:08:05 > 1:08:07'The one who adopted him.
1:08:07 > 1:08:08'Well, I know, it's sad.'
1:08:08 > 1:08:11'These animals, they are extraordinary.
1:08:11 > 1:08:14'And I feel a moral responsibility to try to allow them
1:08:14 > 1:08:18'to live their lives the way I can live my life.
1:08:20 > 1:08:23'And so we just refiled Hercules and Leo,
1:08:23 > 1:08:26'because one of the beauties of writs of habeas corpus
1:08:26 > 1:08:29'is that because they're protecting fundamental bodily liberty,
1:08:29 > 1:08:33'they allow you to file again and again and again.
1:08:37 > 1:08:39'And so now we're looking for judges
1:08:39 > 1:08:44'who are willing to all of a sudden see our plaintiff in a different light.
1:08:44 > 1:08:46'And we think that they're out there.'
1:08:54 > 1:08:56- MAN:- 'For the first time in history,
1:08:56 > 1:08:59'a judge has recognised animals as legal persons.
1:08:59 > 1:09:02'New York Supreme Court Justice Barbara Jaffe
1:09:02 > 1:09:04'decreed two chimpanzees held in a research lab
1:09:04 > 1:09:08'at Stony Brook University are covered by a writ of habeas corpus.'
1:09:08 > 1:09:10- WOMAN:- 'The Nonhuman Rights Project
1:09:10 > 1:09:12'has been granted a writ of habeas corpus
1:09:12 > 1:09:15'requiring the State University of New York
1:09:15 > 1:09:19'to defend its right to keep the primates Hercules and Leo.'
1:09:19 > 1:09:21'The lawsuit was originally filed back in 2013,
1:09:21 > 1:09:24'but was quickly thrown out.
1:09:24 > 1:09:26'The group has been appealing ever since
1:09:26 > 1:09:28'and their tireless efforts seem to have paid off.
1:09:28 > 1:09:31'The animal rights group said by granting the writ,
1:09:31 > 1:09:34'the judge implicitly acknowledges apes are persons.
1:09:34 > 1:09:38'Clearly, she's hoping to receive preferential treatment
1:09:38 > 1:09:40'when they take over.'
1:09:40 > 1:09:42It's a mad house!
1:09:50 > 1:09:53'A few hours ago, I opened up my e-mail
1:09:53 > 1:09:56'and it said Judge Jaffe in the Supreme Court in Manhattan
1:09:56 > 1:09:59'did issue the writ of habeas corpus.'
1:09:59 > 1:10:01And the first.. HE LAUGHS
1:10:01 > 1:10:05The first thing I did is try to remember what date it was
1:10:05 > 1:10:07in case it was April Fools' Day.
1:10:07 > 1:10:09I thought that maybe Liddy was tormenting me
1:10:09 > 1:10:10by sending me a fake e-mail.
1:10:10 > 1:10:15And even then I didn't believe her until she sent me the actual order.
1:10:15 > 1:10:17So I said, "OK, I believe you, it happened."
1:10:17 > 1:10:20And I started... Actually, I started crying.
1:10:20 > 1:10:23And then I said, "OK, I'll let myself cry for 20 seconds
1:10:23 > 1:10:25"and now we've got a lot of work to do."
1:10:27 > 1:10:28It's amazing.
1:10:28 > 1:10:33More on Hercules and Leo. It's crazy.
1:10:33 > 1:10:35The New York Supreme Court Justice
1:10:35 > 1:10:38ordered a Stony Brook University representative to appear in court
1:10:38 > 1:10:40in May to respond to the petition.
1:10:40 > 1:10:41Stony Brook told us,
1:10:41 > 1:10:45"Stony Brook University is unable to comment on the referenced lawsuit."
1:10:49 > 1:10:51Stony Brook is freaking out for sure.
1:11:05 > 1:11:08OK, now, let's see.
1:11:09 > 1:11:11This could be a problem.
1:11:11 > 1:11:14So, Steve, I got an e-mail from the judge
1:11:14 > 1:11:17saying that we put out something
1:11:17 > 1:11:21in OUR press statement that was misleading.
1:11:21 > 1:11:22What do you think that was?
1:11:22 > 1:11:24The recognition of personhood
1:11:24 > 1:11:27because we probably should have said "may be persons".
1:11:29 > 1:11:32OK. So, how are we going to do this? What are we going to say, then?
1:11:32 > 1:11:35Because if the judge is peeved at all, we don't want to upset her.
1:11:35 > 1:11:36Absolutely.
1:11:36 > 1:11:39And this is why we're saying, does she really know what
1:11:39 > 1:11:43she has done here? Obviously she didn't.
1:11:45 > 1:11:49Yesterday afternoon, Liddy got an e-mail claiming that the judge,
1:11:49 > 1:11:51on reconsideration,
1:11:51 > 1:11:54hadn't intended to treat Hercules and Leo as persons.
1:11:56 > 1:12:00So what the judge had done was simply strike out the words
1:12:00 > 1:12:03"and writ of habeas corpus" from the original order
1:12:03 > 1:12:06to show cause and writ of habeas corpus.
1:12:07 > 1:12:10But from a legal point of view, there was no difference.
1:12:10 > 1:12:13All the Nonhuman Rights Project wants is Stony Brook
1:12:13 > 1:12:19to come into court and defend their imprisonment of Hercules and Leo.
1:12:32 > 1:12:34- Are you there, Liddy?- I'm here.
1:12:34 > 1:12:38- OK, I'm checking it now.- OK.
1:12:39 > 1:12:41How about their argument that Lavery
1:12:41 > 1:12:44is binding upon them in New York County?
1:12:44 > 1:12:47- I didn't get to that. What page? - That's on page 13.
1:12:47 > 1:12:51Let me take a look at the cases that they've cited here.
1:12:51 > 1:12:54"Trial courts within this department must follow the determination
1:12:54 > 1:12:57"of the Appellate Division..."
1:12:57 > 1:12:59OK, that's of concern.
1:13:01 > 1:13:03That would mean we would lose on Wednesday
1:13:03 > 1:13:08because Judge Jaffe is going to feel bound to rule against us
1:13:08 > 1:13:11simply based on what the Tommy court and the Kiko court did.
1:13:13 > 1:13:15That's going to be tough to get around.
1:13:32 > 1:13:33Whoa!
1:13:34 > 1:13:36It's the 50lbs of files.
1:13:38 > 1:13:41What we've been expecting is that the Attorney General's
1:13:41 > 1:13:44going to be trying to throw up procedural obstacles,
1:13:44 > 1:13:47roadblocks so that we never actually get to the issue of personhood.
1:13:56 > 1:13:57But I think the Attorney General will be
1:13:57 > 1:14:02confronted with an opponent who is very much more prepared than he is.
1:14:05 > 1:14:07Good morning and welcome.
1:14:07 > 1:14:12We are here for oral argument by the lawyers in this case
1:14:12 > 1:14:14and only they have permission to speak.
1:14:14 > 1:14:18I thus sign the order in anticipation of hearing
1:14:18 > 1:14:23both sides address the procedural and substantive issues raised.
1:14:23 > 1:14:28First, I want to bring to the attention of the court
1:14:28 > 1:14:30that my brother was...
1:14:30 > 1:14:32In Massachusetts, we call the other lawyer "brother" and "sister"
1:14:32 > 1:14:35and sometimes judges don't know what I'm talking about,
1:14:35 > 1:14:38so if it's all right, I'll just refer to him as "my brother".
1:14:38 > 1:14:40Hearing no objection?
1:14:40 > 1:14:41- No, ma'am, I do not object.- OK.
1:14:41 > 1:14:43I've never had a brother.
1:14:43 > 1:14:47So, without the Appellate Division decisions, Mr Wise...
1:14:47 > 1:14:50Yes, we do have something to say about that.
1:14:50 > 1:14:52Yes, I think you have to address it.
1:14:52 > 1:14:54Aren't I bound?
1:14:54 > 1:14:58My brother argues that the Lavery and Presti cases
1:14:58 > 1:15:00are binding upon this court.
1:15:00 > 1:15:03Now, the State versus Moore case
1:15:03 > 1:15:06states that an appellate determination
1:15:06 > 1:15:09is binding only if it involves
1:15:09 > 1:15:12"settled principles of law and legal issues".
1:15:12 > 1:15:15But the case is indeed ongoing
1:15:15 > 1:15:18and we believe that it is reasonably likely
1:15:18 > 1:15:20that the Court of Appeals will indeed
1:15:20 > 1:15:22take further review of the Lavery case.
1:15:22 > 1:15:26Thank you. We'll turn now to the issue of personhood. Mr Coulston.
1:15:26 > 1:15:29Your Honour, there is simply no precedent
1:15:29 > 1:15:32ANYWHERE of a nonhuman animal
1:15:32 > 1:15:35receiving the kinds of rights they're talking about.
1:15:35 > 1:15:37The exceptions that do exist,
1:15:37 > 1:15:40to legal personhood being assigned to something that's not human,
1:15:40 > 1:15:43in every instance that they've cited,
1:15:43 > 1:15:45it's something that in some way relates to human interests,
1:15:45 > 1:15:49whether it's a corporation, whether a ship is treated as a legal person.
1:15:49 > 1:15:50We think that really is the principle
1:15:50 > 1:15:53that's governing the assignment of legal personhood.
1:15:53 > 1:15:55We think that's what the Lavery court said
1:15:55 > 1:15:57and we think that's the law, Your Honour,
1:15:57 > 1:15:59and we don't know of any exceptions otherwise
1:15:59 > 1:16:01and the petitioner hasn't cited any.
1:16:01 > 1:16:04OK, thank you. Mr Wise?
1:16:04 > 1:16:07Your Honour, to say that no nonhuman animal
1:16:07 > 1:16:12has ever been the recipient of a writ of habeas corpus, well,
1:16:12 > 1:16:15until the Nonhuman Rights Project had begun filing these suits,
1:16:15 > 1:16:19no-one had ever asked and the entire hearing has to be looked at
1:16:19 > 1:16:24in the context of extraordinary purpose of a writ of habeas corpus.
1:16:24 > 1:16:29It is the most important writ in the arsenal of writs
1:16:29 > 1:16:31that are in the Anglo-Saxon heritage.
1:16:31 > 1:16:35It's not called the Great Writ - capital G, capital W - for nothing
1:16:35 > 1:16:37and the very purpose is to protect
1:16:37 > 1:16:40autonomous and self-determining beings.
1:16:40 > 1:16:43But science has shown us over the last 50 years,
1:16:43 > 1:16:45especially over the last 20,
1:16:45 > 1:16:48that there are more autonomous beings in this world
1:16:48 > 1:16:50than just human beings.
1:16:50 > 1:16:53Chimpanzees are not governed by instinct.
1:16:53 > 1:16:57They are self-conscious, they have a theory of mind,
1:16:57 > 1:16:59they can understand what others are thinking.
1:16:59 > 1:17:01They understand that they are individuals,
1:17:01 > 1:17:04that their lives mean something to them,
1:17:04 > 1:17:08which is one of the reasons why imprisoning a chimpanzee
1:17:08 > 1:17:10is at least as bad and maybe even worse
1:17:10 > 1:17:12than imprisoning a human being
1:17:12 > 1:17:14because chimpanzees who are in prison
1:17:14 > 1:17:19and essentially being exploited by Stony Brook now,
1:17:19 > 1:17:22that they are...
1:17:22 > 1:17:24They don't even know why they're there.
1:17:24 > 1:17:26These are the sort of things
1:17:26 > 1:17:29that we would only do to our worst criminals amongst us
1:17:29 > 1:17:33and one thing I want to make clear is that our argument is limited,
1:17:33 > 1:17:38extremely limited, to the argument that Hercules and Leo,
1:17:38 > 1:17:41these chimpanzees, should be persons
1:17:41 > 1:17:45solely for the purpose of a common law writ of habeas corpus.
1:17:45 > 1:17:46Thank you.
1:17:46 > 1:17:50Understanding what Mr Wise refers to as the Great Writ
1:17:50 > 1:17:51and what it means to us
1:17:51 > 1:17:55and I think another judge of this court many years ago
1:17:55 > 1:17:58referred to it as a "powerful and broad tool
1:17:58 > 1:18:02"subject to expansive interpretation"
1:18:02 > 1:18:06and our understanding that the law evolves
1:18:06 > 1:18:09according to scientific discovery, social mores -
1:18:09 > 1:18:11witness marital rights -
1:18:11 > 1:18:16isn't it incumbent upon the judiciary to at least consider
1:18:16 > 1:18:21whether a class of beings may be granted a right
1:18:21 > 1:18:26or something short of a right under the habeas statute,
1:18:26 > 1:18:29some kind of special status?
1:18:29 > 1:18:34Thus why can't a chimpanzee, by virtue of the traits documented
1:18:34 > 1:18:41in petitioner's exhibits, be deemed a person for the sole purposes
1:18:41 > 1:18:47Mr Wise says, of permitting the writ to the very limited extent sought?
1:18:47 > 1:18:51Why isn't that an appropriate use of this Great Writ?
1:18:53 > 1:18:56Your Honour, what has been diminished all along
1:18:56 > 1:19:00in this proceeding is how different it is, what they're actually trying
1:19:00 > 1:19:03to do, how the similarities that they paint -
1:19:03 > 1:19:06you can talk about 99% of DNA
1:19:06 > 1:19:09and other aspects that create similarities -
1:19:09 > 1:19:12but the reality is that these are fundamentally different species.
1:19:12 > 1:19:16I worry about the diminishment of these rights in some way
1:19:16 > 1:19:19if we expand them beyond human beings.
1:19:19 > 1:19:23I also think courts are simply just not going to be equipped
1:19:23 > 1:19:26to determine where this new line is going to be
1:19:26 > 1:19:27for these vague categories
1:19:27 > 1:19:30that, yes, they've given them some scientific heft,
1:19:30 > 1:19:32but autonomy and self-determining?
1:19:32 > 1:19:35This just becomes a question of where are we going.
1:19:35 > 1:19:37You absolutely are opening the possible floodgates
1:19:37 > 1:19:40and it is a Great Writ, but it's been a Great Writ for human beings.
1:19:40 > 1:19:42I think it should stay there
1:19:42 > 1:19:44and I think the ramifications are ones
1:19:44 > 1:19:47that we can't always foresee and could have a dramatic effect
1:19:47 > 1:19:51not only on our understanding of how important these rights are
1:19:51 > 1:19:54to human beings, but in applications that could
1:19:54 > 1:19:57affect our society in a negative way.
1:19:58 > 1:19:59Thank you.
1:20:03 > 1:20:06VOICES CLAMOUR
1:20:06 > 1:20:08Mr Wise, how did it go?
1:20:08 > 1:20:10If you define a good hearing as one in which
1:20:10 > 1:20:13the judge asks a lot of questions and is clearly giving both sides
1:20:13 > 1:20:17a fair and comprehensive listen, I thought it went great.
1:20:17 > 1:20:19What happens now?
1:20:19 > 1:20:21I believe the judge is going to take it under advisement
1:20:21 > 1:20:25and, sometime in the next month or two, we should have a decision.
1:20:25 > 1:20:26Steven, quick question.
1:20:26 > 1:20:30How significant is the fact that this hearing today even took place?
1:20:30 > 1:20:32It is highly significant
1:20:32 > 1:20:36because a writ of habeas corpus hearing for a nonhuman animal
1:20:36 > 1:20:39is being held in the same way it would be for a human being,
1:20:39 > 1:20:41so we are now being treated
1:20:41 > 1:20:44like all the other autonomous beings of this world.
1:20:44 > 1:20:46So, is this a partial victory?
1:20:46 > 1:20:50It's a partial victory just standing here, yes. Yes.
1:20:50 > 1:20:52CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
1:20:55 > 1:20:58Is this a race down to see who gets down first?
1:20:58 > 1:21:00'Judges are kind of a conservative bunch,
1:21:00 > 1:21:04'they don't want to get too far ahead of the rest of society,
1:21:04 > 1:21:09'but these judges don't quite realise how much society has moved.'
1:21:10 > 1:21:14The boundary between human and animal intelligence
1:21:14 > 1:21:16is much narrower than we thought.
1:21:16 > 1:21:17Scientists who study them
1:21:17 > 1:21:20say there is a lot more happening there than just play,
1:21:20 > 1:21:24that their intelligence actually rivals ours.
1:21:24 > 1:21:25Elephants are certainly
1:21:25 > 1:21:28one of the most intelligent species in the animal kingdom.
1:21:28 > 1:21:30The more we learn about elephant cognition,
1:21:30 > 1:21:33the more we learn about the evolution of behaviour
1:21:33 > 1:21:35and intelligence in general.
1:21:38 > 1:21:41Wow, this is a hell of a story!
1:21:41 > 1:21:43A recent poll finds one third of Americans thinks animals
1:21:43 > 1:21:45- should have the same rights as people.- Interesting.
1:21:45 > 1:21:47Across all demographic groups,
1:21:47 > 1:21:50an increasing fraction of people support equal rights for animals.
1:21:50 > 1:21:52- Wow.- They say if we can do it for corporations,
1:21:52 > 1:21:54then there's no reason why, essentially,
1:21:54 > 1:21:57- a living being couldn't be considered a person.- Oh, really?
1:21:57 > 1:22:01Oh, my God! When we weren't looking, we moved into the mainstream!
1:22:01 > 1:22:04- Holy smokes! - THEY LAUGH
1:22:13 > 1:22:16'We are on the cusp of a tide.
1:22:16 > 1:22:19'People are really interested in what we have to say
1:22:19 > 1:22:22'and I think we've had a huge success already,
1:22:22 > 1:22:25'in kind of elevating the idea
1:22:25 > 1:22:27'that you can bring a court case like this
1:22:27 > 1:22:28'and do it in a really serious way.
1:22:28 > 1:22:32'It's not being treated as something strange or a weird,
1:22:32 > 1:22:34'it's being treated as a regular court case.'
1:22:37 > 1:22:38And the Nonhuman Rights Project
1:22:38 > 1:22:41has begun to work with legal groups around the world -
1:22:41 > 1:22:44in Australia, in England, in France, in Argentina -
1:22:44 > 1:22:49trying to get them to do similar things in their countries,
1:22:49 > 1:22:52because these same tides of liberty, freedom and equality
1:22:52 > 1:22:54are rolling through those countries,
1:22:54 > 1:22:56just like they're rolling through ours
1:22:56 > 1:22:57and they have been for centuries.
1:22:57 > 1:22:58A female orang-utan
1:22:58 > 1:23:03incarcerated in an Argentinian zoo for more than 20 years
1:23:03 > 1:23:06has been granted some legal rights enjoyed by humans.
1:23:06 > 1:23:08The case rested on whether the court decided
1:23:08 > 1:23:12the orang-utan was a person or a thing.
1:23:12 > 1:23:14This isn't a static issue.
1:23:14 > 1:23:19'We view our lawsuits as really a dialogue between us and the judges
1:23:19 > 1:23:25'and we think that there is going to be an evolution of that dialogue.'
1:23:25 > 1:23:27In fact, there already has been.
1:24:07 > 1:24:11Winston Churchill gave a speech in 1942,
1:24:11 > 1:24:14telling the English people it's not the end
1:24:14 > 1:24:16and it's not even the beginning of the end,
1:24:16 > 1:24:18but it is the end of the beginning.
1:24:21 > 1:24:24And that's what I tell people our suits are about -
1:24:24 > 1:24:26the end of the beginning.
1:24:44 > 1:24:47CAGE DOOR CREAKS
1:24:47 > 1:24:51HUBBUB OF VOICES AND FAIRGROUND MUSIC
1:25:15 > 1:25:18# I see my life come shining
1:25:21 > 1:25:25# From the west down to the east
1:25:28 > 1:25:35# Any day now, any day now
1:25:35 > 1:25:38# I shall be released. #