Moazzam Begg: Living the War on Terror

0:00:39 > 0:00:43On February 24, I think it was, 2014.

0:00:45 > 0:00:47It was deja vu.

0:00:47 > 0:00:49All of these police officers coming into my house.

0:00:49 > 0:00:51Again, they didn't storm in, they didn't bash the door down.

0:00:51 > 0:00:54They knocked the door and they turned up

0:00:54 > 0:00:57into my room, after my wife had opened the door.

0:00:57 > 0:00:59They gathered all my children into one room...

0:01:00 > 0:01:02..allowed me to put some clothes on.

0:01:04 > 0:01:06I went and hugged my children and my wife.

0:01:06 > 0:01:07My wife was in tears.

0:01:07 > 0:01:09The children were not so much.

0:01:10 > 0:01:13I said, "Don't worry. I'll be back soon."

0:01:13 > 0:01:14They raced from Coventry,

0:01:14 > 0:01:18where I was held in the police station, with six vehicles,

0:01:18 > 0:01:21as if I'm one of the greatest terrorist catches ever.

0:01:21 > 0:01:24Sirens blazing, going at about 90mph,

0:01:24 > 0:01:25straight to the court.

0:01:25 > 0:01:28Rushing in. People, media all outside.

0:01:28 > 0:01:30And then denying me bail,

0:01:30 > 0:01:32and then sending me off to Belmarsh.

0:01:32 > 0:01:36And not only did they do that, they put me as a Category A prisoner,

0:01:36 > 0:01:39like the most dangerous prisoners in Belmarsh.

0:01:47 > 0:01:48- PRESIDENT BUSH:- Five months ago,

0:01:48 > 0:01:52Saddam Hussein started this cruel war against Kuwait.

0:01:52 > 0:01:55Tonight, the battle has been joined.

0:02:11 > 0:02:16Around 1990, '91, I was a regular teenager

0:02:16 > 0:02:22and was someone who was struggling with concepts of identity, really.

0:02:22 > 0:02:25Was I British? Was I Muslim? Was I Asian?

0:02:25 > 0:02:26Was I Pakistani?

0:02:26 > 0:02:29As I started to think about my options for the future,

0:02:29 > 0:02:33it was then that the Gulf War broke out.

0:02:33 > 0:02:35- REPORTER:- Many Muslims have watched developments in the Gulf

0:02:35 > 0:02:36with growing dismay.

0:02:36 > 0:02:41Some Muslims see the present conflict as a war against Islam.

0:02:41 > 0:02:44They feel that, once Saddam Hussein offered to withdraw his troops,

0:02:44 > 0:02:47the Allies should have ordered a ceasefire.

0:02:47 > 0:02:49Saddam Hussein should pull out of Kuwait

0:02:49 > 0:02:52and so should President Bush move out of Kuwait,

0:02:52 > 0:02:55because it's quite wrong.

0:02:56 > 0:02:59I had been beaten up by racist skinheads.

0:02:59 > 0:03:02I'd been told numerous times from school onwards,

0:03:02 > 0:03:05from secondary school, never in the Jewish school that I went to,

0:03:05 > 0:03:07"Paki, go home."

0:03:07 > 0:03:09How do I call myself British

0:03:09 > 0:03:12when there are organisations like the British Movement

0:03:12 > 0:03:14who tell me that I'm not British?

0:03:16 > 0:03:18Everybody wants to be part of something

0:03:18 > 0:03:23and so part of my journey would be finding belonging in a gang,

0:03:23 > 0:03:28finding belonging in my father's tales of old India,

0:03:28 > 0:03:30trying to be black -

0:03:30 > 0:03:32speaking with a patois accent.

0:03:32 > 0:03:36And so there was a whole process of trying to find where I fit

0:03:36 > 0:03:39and eventually I came, at the end of that journey...

0:03:39 > 0:03:40Actually, Islam...

0:03:42 > 0:03:44..includes it all.

0:03:45 > 0:03:48When the war began in the Balkans,

0:03:48 > 0:03:51I remember being shocked at these people being killed

0:03:51 > 0:03:52because they were Muslims.

0:03:53 > 0:03:56Some of them had come to the Birmingham Central Mosque

0:03:56 > 0:03:59as refugees seeking asylum in the UK.

0:03:59 > 0:04:01Learning about them was one thing

0:04:01 > 0:04:04but then, learning about them in this manner,

0:04:04 > 0:04:07in the manner of which they described the atrocities

0:04:07 > 0:04:11that they had endured, was unbelievably shocking.

0:04:11 > 0:04:14When I saw what was happening to them I thought,

0:04:14 > 0:04:17"That's happening to me because I'm a Muslim."

0:04:17 > 0:04:20I went on this land convoy

0:04:20 > 0:04:23and in a matter of days we were in Bosnia.

0:04:25 > 0:04:28When I got there and saw destroyed houses,

0:04:28 > 0:04:31the famous bridge in Mostar...

0:04:31 > 0:04:35I remember the graveyards filled with new graves

0:04:35 > 0:04:38and then spending time at refugee centres

0:04:38 > 0:04:40in these picturesque villages,

0:04:40 > 0:04:42contrasted against the brutality.

0:04:44 > 0:04:47Then I came to a place which was part of...

0:04:48 > 0:04:50..the 3rd Corps.

0:04:54 > 0:04:58The 3rd Corps of the Bosnian Army

0:04:58 > 0:05:04was made up of foreign volunteers and local Bosnians.

0:05:04 > 0:05:08It reinforced, for me, the sense of a Muslim identity

0:05:08 > 0:05:11that transcends national boundaries.

0:05:11 > 0:05:16There was a sense that these were the bravest

0:05:16 > 0:05:18and most effective of the fighting forces.

0:05:19 > 0:05:21They called themselves, of course, mujahedeen.

0:05:21 > 0:05:24This is the terminology they used to describe themselves.

0:05:24 > 0:05:27The idea of jihad and the idea of mujahedeen

0:05:27 > 0:05:29is something that we are told from a very early age,

0:05:29 > 0:05:32in terms of the Prophet and his companions.

0:05:32 > 0:05:34Khalid ibn al-Walid, this great Muslim general

0:05:34 > 0:05:36who defeated, fought against the Romans.

0:05:36 > 0:05:39This is the 20th-century version of those guys for me.

0:05:41 > 0:05:43Meeting with people like that, I think,

0:05:43 > 0:05:46who'd literally abandoned everything else

0:05:46 > 0:05:49in order to come to save these people

0:05:49 > 0:05:53who the world knew was being ethnically cleansed...

0:05:53 > 0:05:56This is a place where the United Nations forces are all present.

0:05:56 > 0:05:59I met them all. I met the Brits, I met the Dutch,

0:05:59 > 0:06:01I met the Pakistanis and the Malaysians and the Turks.

0:06:01 > 0:06:05I sat and spoke with them. I saw them armed to the teeth,

0:06:05 > 0:06:08and yet the massacres of Srebrenica were taking place.

0:06:08 > 0:06:12So when I saw that mujahedeen had come from around the world

0:06:12 > 0:06:14to do what these United Nations forces would not do...

0:06:16 > 0:06:18..I felt, not only is this the right thing to do,

0:06:18 > 0:06:20it's the only thing to do.

0:06:20 > 0:06:21I supported them.

0:06:21 > 0:06:26So by the end of this experience in Bosnia-Herzegovina...

0:06:27 > 0:06:33..the son of this conservative bank manager had been radicalised?

0:06:33 > 0:06:35I'd say to a degree. I mean, not radicalised in the sense...

0:06:35 > 0:06:37and, of course, this is very important to understand

0:06:37 > 0:06:39that, when we talk about radicalisation,

0:06:39 > 0:06:41it wasn't that I believed in the concept

0:06:41 > 0:06:44of what they claimed Osama bin Laden is stating, or Al-Qaeda,

0:06:44 > 0:06:46or anything like that at all.

0:06:46 > 0:06:49I just believed in the right of these people to defend themselves.

0:06:49 > 0:06:51I believed that if somebody is getting raped,

0:06:51 > 0:06:52if a child is getting his throat cut

0:06:52 > 0:06:55just because someone doesn't want to waste a bullet on him,

0:06:55 > 0:06:56then he has to be protected.

0:06:56 > 0:06:58And if the world community is not doing it,

0:06:58 > 0:07:00then it's the people of the country

0:07:00 > 0:07:02have to be helped in defending themselves.

0:07:02 > 0:07:04Did you take up arms there?

0:07:04 > 0:07:06No. No, I didn't. No.

0:07:06 > 0:07:08- Did you feel tempted to?- Oh, yes.

0:07:08 > 0:07:12I felt tempted to, but I had no experience, no knowledge.

0:07:12 > 0:07:14I haven't got a clue how to fight.

0:07:14 > 0:07:17In '98 you quit your job.

0:07:17 > 0:07:21Was that connected with Bosnia and with that personal development?

0:07:21 > 0:07:24In '98, I think that's when we opened,

0:07:24 > 0:07:28my friend and a colleague of mine, a book shop. An Islamic book shop.

0:07:28 > 0:07:32That was part of my development into...

0:07:32 > 0:07:33from being somebody who was...

0:07:36 > 0:07:39..partially Islamic to somebody who's fully Islamic.

0:07:40 > 0:07:42And...

0:07:44 > 0:07:45..it was, of course, during this period

0:07:45 > 0:07:50that I started getting under the radars of the security services.

0:08:01 > 0:08:05- REPORTER:- The bodies of 11 Americans killed in the Nairobi bombing

0:08:05 > 0:08:07are on their way home to the United States -

0:08:07 > 0:08:10a sombre process that's brought grief to the nation

0:08:10 > 0:08:12and anger to government leaders

0:08:12 > 0:08:15vowing to track down those responsible.

0:08:15 > 0:08:17Today, I ordered our armed forces to strike at

0:08:17 > 0:08:21terrorist-related facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan,

0:08:21 > 0:08:25because of the imminent threat they presented to our national security.

0:08:26 > 0:08:30- JOHN SIMPSON:- This man was the target of the American missiles,

0:08:30 > 0:08:33Osama bin Laden, the Saudi fundamentalist,

0:08:33 > 0:08:37who's used his personal fortune, estimated at £200 million,

0:08:37 > 0:08:41to fight American interests worldwide, pledging holy war.

0:08:41 > 0:08:43- REPORTER:- To ordinary people in Sudan,

0:08:43 > 0:08:46the American missile strike on Khartoum was shockingly unexpected.

0:08:46 > 0:08:48And, from their government, all that they have heard

0:08:48 > 0:08:52is that it was a totally unjustified act of United States terrorism.

0:08:53 > 0:08:56I've always understood that my view on the West

0:08:56 > 0:08:59was that I've been extremely critical of it, it's also my home,

0:08:59 > 0:09:01it's also where I live.

0:09:01 > 0:09:03It's the language I speak, I think in this language.

0:09:03 > 0:09:06It's the place where my mother is buried and my sister's buried

0:09:06 > 0:09:09and my kids grew up and where I grew up.

0:09:09 > 0:09:13It's where I have all my memories of childhood and happiness and joy.

0:09:14 > 0:09:17Coming into conflict with the West

0:09:17 > 0:09:19would also mean coming into conflict with home...

0:09:20 > 0:09:25..and that's something I've never, ever wanted or advocated.

0:09:30 > 0:09:31I remember distinctly there was a...

0:09:33 > 0:09:36..a knock on my door, early in the morning, around six o'clock

0:09:36 > 0:09:39and I opened the door and there were three people,

0:09:39 > 0:09:41two men and a woman,

0:09:41 > 0:09:44and they said, "Mr Begg, we'd like to talk to you."

0:09:44 > 0:09:46I found it really odd.

0:09:46 > 0:09:49One of them identified themselves as a police officer.

0:09:49 > 0:09:52The other guys didn't really say who they were.

0:09:52 > 0:09:54They sat down and we spoke

0:09:54 > 0:09:57and it was about an individual, somebody I knew,

0:09:57 > 0:10:01who'd gone to the Emirates and had been detained in the Emirates...

0:10:02 > 0:10:06..and he'd been beaten and tortured

0:10:06 > 0:10:10and had written to me asking if I cab get him a lawyer,

0:10:10 > 0:10:13because they were forcing him to sign confessions

0:10:13 > 0:10:15of all sorts of stuff related to terrorism.

0:10:15 > 0:10:21This was the first of...meetings with one particular individual

0:10:21 > 0:10:22out of these three.

0:10:22 > 0:10:24The two I never saw again,

0:10:24 > 0:10:26but this one person became...

0:10:28 > 0:10:30..I don't know if the right word is "nemesis" for me,

0:10:30 > 0:10:32but he...he was haunting me,

0:10:32 > 0:10:36like a spook, for the next several years

0:10:36 > 0:10:37and this man...

0:10:39 > 0:10:41..introduced himself as Andrew.

0:10:41 > 0:10:44I've always known him as Andrew. There is no other name.

0:10:44 > 0:10:47Andrew seemed, to me...

0:10:49 > 0:10:52..just more aware of what he wants, why he's there.

0:10:52 > 0:10:53He was...

0:10:54 > 0:10:57To me, it was clear, it's an intelligence gathering exercise.

0:10:58 > 0:11:01The police officer was more about, "I'm a police officer,

0:11:01 > 0:11:03"I need to be looking for crimes and I don't see one

0:11:03 > 0:11:05"so I don't really know what I'm doing here."

0:11:05 > 0:11:11When Andrew first left, he said some words to me which resonated,

0:11:11 > 0:11:13or they stuck with me for quite some time.

0:11:13 > 0:11:15He said...

0:11:16 > 0:11:19.."Moazzam, if there's anything that you can do to help us,

0:11:19 > 0:11:21"don't forget, this is your country, too."

0:11:22 > 0:11:25And I found that interesting that he'd say that.

0:11:26 > 0:11:28"This is your country, too."

0:11:28 > 0:11:30Well, I know it's my country,

0:11:30 > 0:11:33but why do you need to remind me of that?

0:11:34 > 0:11:38I was flying out, I think, in '99,

0:11:38 > 0:11:41the following year, to Turkey...

0:11:42 > 0:11:48..and before I took the flight, I was stopped at the airport

0:11:48 > 0:11:52and taken by airport security to a room.

0:11:52 > 0:11:55They said, "We've got somebody who'd like to speak to you."

0:11:56 > 0:12:01And so I was surprised, but not completely taken aback...

0:12:02 > 0:12:05..because the person who walked in next was Andrew.

0:12:05 > 0:12:08He started to speak to me about all of my political views,

0:12:08 > 0:12:12which he hadn't done before, in the presence of the police officers.

0:12:12 > 0:12:14Now I knew Andrew,

0:12:14 > 0:12:19I had an understanding of what this man is like, in terms of...

0:12:20 > 0:12:22..his power.

0:12:22 > 0:12:24I mean, if he wants to, he can have me stopped

0:12:24 > 0:12:26and prevented from flying,

0:12:26 > 0:12:27which is what he did.

0:12:29 > 0:12:32Did it seem to you unexpected

0:12:32 > 0:12:35that you would be stopped at the airport on that journey?

0:12:35 > 0:12:37This was 1999.

0:12:37 > 0:12:40This was before the Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act,

0:12:40 > 0:12:43before people were being stopped at airports and being questioned.

0:12:43 > 0:12:44So this was well before...

0:12:46 > 0:12:48..something that happens quite regularly now.

0:12:48 > 0:12:52Did they make enquiries to you about the purpose of your visit?

0:12:52 > 0:12:54Was Andrew interested in why you were going?

0:12:54 > 0:12:58Yes, of course, he was interested in why I was going, and he...

0:12:59 > 0:13:01..he asked me a couple of rudimentary questions,

0:13:01 > 0:13:03but he was more interested in my views.

0:13:03 > 0:13:05What I found odd about this

0:13:05 > 0:13:09is that he could have come to my house again, if he wanted to.

0:13:09 > 0:13:10He knows where it is.

0:13:10 > 0:13:12The next time I saw Andrew

0:13:12 > 0:13:15was when I was kneeling...

0:13:16 > 0:13:18..with a hood over my head,

0:13:18 > 0:13:20my hands shackled behind my back

0:13:20 > 0:13:25and a gun pointed to my body in Bagram, and...

0:13:26 > 0:13:28..that was a shock.

0:13:31 > 0:13:32You're telling me this story

0:13:32 > 0:13:35as though you were going to sit on the beach in Turkey

0:13:35 > 0:13:37but, like, that's not what you were going to do.

0:13:37 > 0:13:42You're kind of withholding the kind of crucial details.

0:13:42 > 0:13:45I'm interested in why you would spin it that way.

0:13:45 > 0:13:49I was going to Turkey to go and meet some friends

0:13:49 > 0:13:51to go and possibly go over to Chechnya.

0:13:51 > 0:13:53The Cold War had ended

0:13:53 > 0:13:57and MI5 and the CIA were turning their priorities towards

0:13:57 > 0:14:00understanding the threat of radical Islam.

0:14:00 > 0:14:02You did have friends

0:14:02 > 0:14:05who had been facing terror charges in other countries

0:14:05 > 0:14:09and they had come to you for support.

0:14:09 > 0:14:10Mm.

0:14:10 > 0:14:13You had volunteered, or visited the Bosnian mujahedeen,

0:14:13 > 0:14:19and was now, in 1999, exploring a mission to Chechnya.

0:14:19 > 0:14:22So it seems kind of reasonable that the security agencies

0:14:22 > 0:14:24would have an interest in you at that point.

0:14:26 > 0:14:28Yes and no,

0:14:28 > 0:14:32because a lot of the things that I have spoken to you about

0:14:32 > 0:14:34they didn't know about.

0:14:34 > 0:14:36They didn't know about Bosnia and going to Bosnia

0:14:36 > 0:14:38and they weren't interested.

0:14:38 > 0:14:40They'd never once spoke to me about Bosnia.

0:14:43 > 0:14:46Chechnya was one of these places

0:14:46 > 0:14:49where there was a growing sense, I think, in the Muslim world,

0:14:49 > 0:14:51or some parts of the Muslim world,

0:14:51 > 0:14:54that, "Here's another place of resistance."

0:14:54 > 0:14:58I found it inspirational and I wanted to go and see for myself.

0:14:58 > 0:15:03I went to the border with Georgia with a friend.

0:15:05 > 0:15:08We were not allowed in, and...

0:15:08 > 0:15:13I was, of course, arrested in 2001

0:15:13 > 0:15:17under the Terrorism Act

0:15:17 > 0:15:22and they raided my home and the book store.

0:15:22 > 0:15:26- REPORTER:- Last night, officers from the West Midlands Police and MI5

0:15:26 > 0:15:28carried out raids on three premises in Birmingham

0:15:28 > 0:15:31under anti-terrorist legislation.

0:15:31 > 0:15:34The police, at the time, told the press that the raids were linked

0:15:34 > 0:15:37to Islamic extremist activities.

0:15:37 > 0:15:40The authorities really didn't know what they were doing.

0:15:40 > 0:15:43They couldn't explain to me, they really couldn't explain to me,

0:15:43 > 0:15:45what it is that they think I've done.

0:15:45 > 0:15:47Yes, "terrorism".

0:15:47 > 0:15:49In what context? According to whom?

0:15:49 > 0:15:51With whom? Which dates? Which times? Which places?

0:15:51 > 0:15:52Who's been hurt?

0:15:52 > 0:15:55This is what I think it culminated into,

0:15:55 > 0:15:58that MI5 were gathering some sort of intelligence.

0:15:58 > 0:16:01They didn't really know themselves what was happening

0:16:01 > 0:16:04and then it culminated into an arrest

0:16:04 > 0:16:07and I still don't understand what the arrest was about.

0:16:07 > 0:16:10I don't understand where a crime was committed

0:16:10 > 0:16:13and, of course, the charges were dropped,

0:16:13 > 0:16:15but that did shake me up, that...

0:16:16 > 0:16:19..I'd actually been arrested for terrorism.

0:16:21 > 0:16:23You ran a book shop in Birmingham, al-Ansar,

0:16:23 > 0:16:26which you and Imran Khan founded

0:16:26 > 0:16:31and it sold a range of radical conservative texts and videos.

0:16:33 > 0:16:37The bookshop was raided a couple of times under the Terrorism Act 2000,

0:16:37 > 0:16:40but no subsequent action was taken.

0:16:40 > 0:16:43If there had been an offence of indirect incitement...

0:16:45 > 0:16:47..do you think that you might have been...

0:16:49 > 0:16:51..prosecuted and found guilty under such a law

0:16:51 > 0:16:54- for what you were then doing in the book shop?- I don't think so

0:16:54 > 0:16:57because the things we were selling were available in the media.

0:16:57 > 0:16:59They were available in other shops. They were available in bookshops.

0:16:59 > 0:17:02So, I don't think so. I don't think so at all.

0:17:02 > 0:17:05And I took advice from my lawyers at the time

0:17:05 > 0:17:08to discover whether these things were against the law,

0:17:08 > 0:17:10whether there were any possible prosecutions.

0:17:10 > 0:17:13So, even in the light of incitement,

0:17:13 > 0:17:15and because it's such a broad thing that has been unexplored,

0:17:15 > 0:17:17it's very difficult to say.

0:17:17 > 0:17:20I don't think so, because I certainly didn't produce them,

0:17:20 > 0:17:21I didn't speak with them.

0:17:21 > 0:17:25I wasn't the one fighting or giving those lectures.

0:17:27 > 0:17:30We were simply selling those books in our shop.

0:17:30 > 0:17:36But the law that's proposed now is a law of indirect incitement.

0:17:36 > 0:17:39Do you think that the law that's now proposed,

0:17:39 > 0:17:42if you could imagine the situation back then,

0:17:42 > 0:17:45would have had you breaking the law then?

0:17:45 > 0:17:48It's very difficult to look in retrospect how things would work.

0:17:48 > 0:17:49It's, erm...

0:17:49 > 0:17:51I don't know the answer to that question.

0:17:51 > 0:17:54- Quite possibly. - Is that your concern?

0:17:54 > 0:17:56That the sort of things that you wanted to do then,

0:17:56 > 0:17:59the books that you wanted to sell and the videos you wanted to sell,

0:17:59 > 0:18:02they included philosophical works going back

0:18:02 > 0:18:05and they included Bin Laden videos.

0:18:05 > 0:18:08Do you think that doing that now...?

0:18:08 > 0:18:09All right, I don't, for the record,

0:18:09 > 0:18:12I don't recall any Bin Laden videos when I was here.

0:18:12 > 0:18:14Things may have happened afterwards,

0:18:14 > 0:18:16but I certainly don't recall any Bin Laden videos.

0:18:16 > 0:18:17I do recall some of his books,

0:18:17 > 0:18:22or books that had sections written about him,

0:18:22 > 0:18:23but then those books were also available

0:18:23 > 0:18:25in Waterstones and Dillons.

0:18:27 > 0:18:31Did you ever question the path that you were on,

0:18:31 > 0:18:34as you realise that you are now,

0:18:34 > 0:18:38if not a terrorist or if not a criminal,

0:18:38 > 0:18:42flying into confrontation with the state?

0:18:42 > 0:18:44Was that something that caused you...

0:18:45 > 0:18:47..to rethink your choices?

0:18:49 > 0:18:54I think it was that the state was flying into confrontation with me.

0:18:54 > 0:18:57I wasn't anti-state, the state was anti-me.

0:19:04 > 0:19:06- REPORTER:- The UN is about to publish a major report

0:19:06 > 0:19:08condemning the Taliban regime in Afghanistan

0:19:08 > 0:19:10for its repression and violence against women,

0:19:10 > 0:19:13since it imposed its brand of Islam four years ago.

0:19:14 > 0:19:16- REPORTER:- Amnesty International claims tonight

0:19:16 > 0:19:20that Afghanistan's Taliban militia has massacred thousands of civilians

0:19:20 > 0:19:21in the past few weeks.

0:19:21 > 0:19:24Victims, they say, include women, children, and the elderly.

0:19:24 > 0:19:28Taliban officials have strongly denied the accusations.

0:19:31 > 0:19:35- INTERVIEWER:- Can you talk me through the decision to travel again?

0:19:36 > 0:19:39It was nothing to do with the arrest?

0:19:39 > 0:19:41I didn't flee the United Kingdom.

0:19:41 > 0:19:43I wasn't...

0:19:43 > 0:19:45fleeing anything, because I'd already been arrested.

0:19:45 > 0:19:47I stayed, I was given bail.

0:19:47 > 0:19:50And if I wanted to run, I could have run on bail, but I didn't.

0:19:50 > 0:19:52Let's talk about the Taliban.

0:19:52 > 0:19:54There's a kind of common perception

0:19:54 > 0:19:59that you went to Afghanistan to practically join the Taliban.

0:19:59 > 0:20:00Mm.

0:20:02 > 0:20:04No, I didn't join the Taliban...

0:20:05 > 0:20:06..but I went to live under them.

0:20:06 > 0:20:10My views on the Taliban were not formed by the media.

0:20:10 > 0:20:12That's one thing that I wasn't going to do

0:20:12 > 0:20:15and that's one reason why I wanted to see things for myself.

0:20:15 > 0:20:18The talk was all that the Afghan Taliban

0:20:18 > 0:20:21are not allowing female education.

0:20:21 > 0:20:26So, when my friends told me actually that's not technically true,

0:20:26 > 0:20:28they are allowing schools for girls,

0:20:28 > 0:20:31as long as they have an Islamic ethos,

0:20:31 > 0:20:32we helped to set up curriculums,

0:20:32 > 0:20:36we helped to buy playground equipment and computers

0:20:36 > 0:20:39and send all of that from Britain to Afghanistan.

0:20:40 > 0:20:44What was your attitude towards the Taliban?

0:20:44 > 0:20:47The Taliban were clearly conservative Muslims.

0:20:47 > 0:20:52They had been born out of the conflict of Afghanistan

0:20:52 > 0:20:55and they felt that the solution lay in Islam and in Islam only,

0:20:55 > 0:20:59but in their version of traditional Afghan Islam and not another one.

0:20:59 > 0:21:00Part of what I felt was

0:21:00 > 0:21:03something that I could do as a Westerner

0:21:03 > 0:21:07is actually introduce ideas from the West.

0:21:07 > 0:21:10I think being involved in the school was one of those things -

0:21:10 > 0:21:13where you could teach English in a school like that,

0:21:13 > 0:21:16whereas the Taliban had closed down schools

0:21:16 > 0:21:19that were run by various UN agencies,

0:21:19 > 0:21:22because they said these are Western influences that we don't want.

0:21:22 > 0:21:26Yet they would allow those same Western influences from a Muslim.

0:21:27 > 0:21:31I think this was a step in my journey.

0:21:31 > 0:21:35Before I'd gone to these places, to conflict zones,

0:21:35 > 0:21:37I had thought about, "What does this mean for me?

0:21:37 > 0:21:39"What does it mean for my family?"

0:21:39 > 0:21:42When I've gone or tried to go, I've left them behind.

0:21:42 > 0:21:44They've never been with me. So this time round, I said,

0:21:44 > 0:21:47"OK, I'm going to go and I'm going to go with you."

0:21:47 > 0:21:50Yes, there's conflict in Afghanistan but there wasn't any in Kabul.

0:21:50 > 0:21:53Kabul had been safe for several years by that time.

0:21:53 > 0:21:56So I made sure that it was safe for me and my family

0:21:56 > 0:22:01but also that whatever I'm doing now, my family can be close to me.

0:22:01 > 0:22:04My experiences of the Taliban, of course, living in Afghanistan...

0:22:05 > 0:22:09..made me question what they were really about.

0:22:10 > 0:22:14I remember once, I was driving through Kabul centre

0:22:14 > 0:22:16and there was a crowd of people

0:22:16 > 0:22:18gathered at one of the major roundabouts,

0:22:18 > 0:22:21so your car couldn't drive through

0:22:21 > 0:22:23and I had to get out to walk to see what was going on.

0:22:23 > 0:22:25As I got closer and closer,

0:22:25 > 0:22:29I realised there were four cranes at this roundabout

0:22:29 > 0:22:34and each crane has, off it, hanging a person.

0:22:34 > 0:22:38There are four people being executed,

0:22:38 > 0:22:39ironically for terrorism...

0:22:41 > 0:22:44..and the crowds were just standing around, looking at these bodies

0:22:44 > 0:22:45and the tongues were blackened.

0:22:47 > 0:22:48So, I remember thinking,

0:22:48 > 0:22:51"I wonder what sort of legal process these guys must have gone through."

0:23:14 > 0:23:16I can hear you!

0:23:16 > 0:23:19CHEERING

0:23:22 > 0:23:23I can hear you,

0:23:23 > 0:23:26the rest of the world hears you,

0:23:26 > 0:23:27and the people...

0:23:27 > 0:23:29CHEERING

0:23:31 > 0:23:34..and the people who knocked these buildings down

0:23:34 > 0:23:36will hear all of us soon.

0:23:36 > 0:23:38CHEERING

0:23:43 > 0:23:47- CHANTING:- USA! USA! USA! USA!

0:23:47 > 0:23:49- GEORGE BUSH: - By aiding and abetting murder,

0:23:49 > 0:23:52the Taliban regime is committing murder...

0:23:53 > 0:23:56..and tonight, the United States of America

0:23:56 > 0:23:59makes the following demands on the Taliban.

0:24:00 > 0:24:04Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of Al-Qaeda,

0:24:04 > 0:24:05who hide in your land.

0:24:05 > 0:24:08APPLAUSE

0:24:09 > 0:24:11- REPORTER:- The Taliban has reiterated

0:24:11 > 0:24:13that it won't hand over Osama Bin Laden

0:24:13 > 0:24:14without evidence of his involvement.

0:24:16 > 0:24:18...assist them to carry out...

0:24:18 > 0:24:21- REPORTER:- "If unbelievers attacked the territory of Muslims,"

0:24:21 > 0:24:22said the Taliban today,

0:24:22 > 0:24:26"then jihad, holy war, becomes an obligation."

0:24:26 > 0:24:28In other words, "We'll fight."

0:24:28 > 0:24:30Here in the border city of Quetta,

0:24:30 > 0:24:33Islamic leaders raged that an attack on Afghanistan

0:24:33 > 0:24:35will be an attack on Islam.

0:24:37 > 0:24:41Whether this is a war, or a more limited campaign of retribution

0:24:41 > 0:24:44against America's elusive tormentors...

0:24:47 > 0:24:50..this was how the counter-assault unfolded.

0:24:51 > 0:24:53I understood the need for reaction.

0:24:53 > 0:24:57I understood a reaction had to happen and...

0:24:57 > 0:25:00they needed to protect themselves and find those who were responsible.

0:25:00 > 0:25:03I understood all of that but I believe their response,

0:25:03 > 0:25:08still, to this day, has never been explained,

0:25:08 > 0:25:10in terms of the sheer number of bombs

0:25:10 > 0:25:13that they dropped on Afghanistan.

0:25:13 > 0:25:16I still can't describe to people

0:25:16 > 0:25:20the idea of a 15,000lb bomb landing anywhere

0:25:20 > 0:25:22and how many people that kills.

0:25:22 > 0:25:25HE SCREAMS AND CRIES

0:25:27 > 0:25:30The number of people being killed was so much,

0:25:30 > 0:25:32nobody had an idea of the actual number.

0:25:32 > 0:25:34Nobody really cared of the numbers

0:25:34 > 0:25:37but I'm sure it far exceeded the number of people

0:25:37 > 0:25:40that died terribly on September the 11th.

0:25:42 > 0:25:44I took my own family,

0:25:44 > 0:25:46a couple of other families and their children, into the cellar.

0:25:46 > 0:25:48We had a big house

0:25:48 > 0:25:53and just waited in the cellar, hoping that this would stop...

0:25:54 > 0:25:55..and once it did...

0:25:57 > 0:26:00..the very next day, we all got out.

0:26:02 > 0:26:06Logar is a couple of hours away from Kabul centre.

0:26:06 > 0:26:08We'd evacuated to this place,

0:26:08 > 0:26:12just looking to find ways to get into Pakistan.

0:26:12 > 0:26:15We stayed in Logar, I think, for a few weeks,

0:26:15 > 0:26:19until, eventually, my family evacuated

0:26:19 > 0:26:21but I got separated from them.

0:26:21 > 0:26:23Can you tell me the story of how you got separated from your family?

0:26:25 > 0:26:30I'd gone to Kabul to clear out the rest of our house

0:26:30 > 0:26:32and get some things from there, with some friends.

0:26:32 > 0:26:34I'd left my family in Logar

0:26:34 > 0:26:36and during the night...

0:26:38 > 0:26:39..there was mayhem and commotion.

0:26:39 > 0:26:42Kabul had fallen, the Taliban had evacuated

0:26:42 > 0:26:44and abandoned their positions

0:26:44 > 0:26:46and they're looking at foreigners.

0:26:46 > 0:26:48Anybody who is a foreigner, a foreign Muslim,

0:26:48 > 0:26:50they regard as Al-Qaeda.

0:26:51 > 0:26:55It was a very, very scary time and I wanted to just get to my family.

0:26:56 > 0:26:59I couldn't, because the roads had been blocked off.

0:26:59 > 0:27:02All the entry and exit points into Kabul were being blocked.

0:27:03 > 0:27:08So, there's a group of people that I was with, Pakistanis and others,

0:27:08 > 0:27:10who said they know a route over the hills,

0:27:10 > 0:27:13the mountains, that will take me to Logar.

0:27:14 > 0:27:15They drove all night long.

0:27:16 > 0:27:19It doesn't take all night to get to Logar.

0:27:19 > 0:27:21They weren't going to Logar. And I kept on telling them,

0:27:21 > 0:27:25"I need to get to Logar, where my family is," and...

0:27:26 > 0:27:27..they just carried on.

0:27:27 > 0:27:29They said, "We have to keep going here

0:27:29 > 0:27:31"because it's not safe, it's not safe."

0:27:31 > 0:27:34Eventually, we ended up near Jalalabad somewhere.

0:27:36 > 0:27:37And then, in Jalalabad...

0:27:38 > 0:27:42..also firing started there and fighting started there.

0:27:43 > 0:27:46So we couldn't even stay in Jalalabad, and that fell.

0:27:46 > 0:27:50Then we had to push back to this mountain range

0:27:50 > 0:27:53between Pakistan and Afghanistan

0:27:53 > 0:27:55and the only way into Pakistan was to walk.

0:27:56 > 0:27:58So...

0:27:58 > 0:28:02me and a group of these Pakistani guys walked...

0:28:03 > 0:28:04..and I was wearing sandals...

0:28:06 > 0:28:07..and it was the winter.

0:28:07 > 0:28:09It was freezing cold.

0:28:10 > 0:28:12And we walked, I think...

0:28:13 > 0:28:16..two, maybe three days over these mountains,

0:28:16 > 0:28:18up and down, up and down...

0:28:19 > 0:28:21..across goat tracks...

0:28:23 > 0:28:25..across frozen streams.

0:28:25 > 0:28:28It was amazingly beautiful.

0:28:28 > 0:28:32An unbelievably beautiful place to walk through, these mountains.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35And perhaps that was...

0:28:35 > 0:28:38one sense of solace, but I had one mission in my head -

0:28:38 > 0:28:40that I had to get to my family.

0:28:40 > 0:28:42And after this, er...

0:28:43 > 0:28:47..odyssey of a journey across the mountains,

0:28:47 > 0:28:48eventually did get to Pakistan.

0:28:50 > 0:28:52And I was going insane.

0:28:52 > 0:28:55I was going mad with worry about what had happened.

0:28:55 > 0:28:58There were refugees everywhere, people coming in and out.

0:28:58 > 0:29:01I phoned home and...

0:29:02 > 0:29:04..I remember telling my father that I'd lost my family,

0:29:04 > 0:29:06"I don't know where they are."

0:29:07 > 0:29:08It was...

0:29:10 > 0:29:12It was heartbreaking.

0:29:13 > 0:29:17Almost two, maybe three weeks had passed, and still I'd heard nothing.

0:29:20 > 0:29:24So I was planning to go back into Afghanistan,

0:29:24 > 0:29:26knowing that it was going to be extremely risky for me,

0:29:26 > 0:29:28but I had to go back in.

0:29:29 > 0:29:32And just as I was about to go back in, I got a phone call...

0:29:34 > 0:29:36..from a friend, who said, "Don't go anywhere, Moazzam.

0:29:36 > 0:29:40"Your family's here, right here in Pakistan, in Islamabad."

0:29:43 > 0:29:46I rushed back all the way, thanking God,

0:29:46 > 0:29:49thanking everybody I could...

0:29:50 > 0:29:52..and eventually got to Islamabad,

0:29:52 > 0:29:57where my family was staying at the house of some people

0:29:57 > 0:29:59who'd took them in.

0:30:00 > 0:30:03We decided we were going to stay in Pakistan for a while

0:30:03 > 0:30:08and just ride this through and then eventually go back to the UK.

0:30:12 > 0:30:15Just to go back to the beginning of that -

0:30:15 > 0:30:18I'm not quite clear why you were in Kabul.

0:30:21 > 0:30:25I went to Kabul to go and get the...

0:30:26 > 0:30:27..our goods.

0:30:27 > 0:30:31So we'd evacuated from Kabul but I still had the house there, in Kabul.

0:30:31 > 0:30:34So there was still lots of things, lots of belongings of ours,

0:30:34 > 0:30:37that were still in the house that I went to go back and get.

0:30:39 > 0:30:41But you went more than once, right?

0:30:41 > 0:30:43Once your family were in Logar...

0:30:43 > 0:30:45Oh, yeah, of course. I'd go to Kabul often.

0:30:45 > 0:30:47- I'd go to Kabul often.- What...?

0:30:47 > 0:30:50I mean, that's a heavy conflict zone

0:30:50 > 0:30:52and you've got your family safe in Logar,

0:30:52 > 0:30:55so what are you doing going back into Kabul every week?

0:30:55 > 0:30:57Because Kabul is still a city.

0:30:57 > 0:31:00If you want to go and buy, for example, you want to buy a cooker,

0:31:00 > 0:31:04you can't buy one in Logar. It's not even a village.

0:31:05 > 0:31:08Who were these people that you were with?

0:31:08 > 0:31:11Again, I can't quite visualise it.

0:31:11 > 0:31:13There are some men that you're with

0:31:13 > 0:31:16and then you get in a car and then you find yourself in Jalalabad.

0:31:16 > 0:31:19These were Pakistanis. Pakistanis, who lived in Kabul.

0:31:21 > 0:31:22So these guys were...

0:31:23 > 0:31:27..the ones that I ended up going back to Jalalabad

0:31:27 > 0:31:28and all these other places with

0:31:28 > 0:31:30and people who'd lived there for a while,

0:31:30 > 0:31:32who knew Afghanistan better than I did.

0:31:32 > 0:31:33So these were...

0:31:36 > 0:31:38..people I got to know over the time that I was there.

0:31:40 > 0:31:46And the mountains that you were in were the Tora Bora mountains.

0:31:46 > 0:31:48I don't know.

0:31:48 > 0:31:50I didn't know the name of those places.

0:31:50 > 0:31:52I've heard the name Milawa.

0:31:52 > 0:31:54It was called Milawa, as far as I understand.

0:31:55 > 0:31:58- REPORTER:- These are the first pictures of Al-Qaeda fighters

0:31:58 > 0:31:59who've been captured.

0:31:59 > 0:32:01In all, 35 were caught today.

0:32:02 > 0:32:07These men gave themselves up in no fit state to fight on,

0:32:07 > 0:32:10after days of brutal temperatures and bombing.

0:32:10 > 0:32:13This is what Osama Bin Laden's force has been reduced to.

0:32:15 > 0:32:16Up in the mountains,

0:32:16 > 0:32:20Osama Bin Laden's elaborate cave network was hurriedly abandoned.

0:32:20 > 0:32:22Papers left behind will be scrutinised

0:32:22 > 0:32:25for any clues as to his whereabouts.

0:32:25 > 0:32:28The world's most wanted men, Al-Qaeda's leaders,

0:32:28 > 0:32:31could now be anywhere in these hills,

0:32:31 > 0:32:33or they may have fled to Pakistan.

0:32:35 > 0:32:36Do you think...?

0:32:36 > 0:32:38Do you think that's, in the end...

0:32:41 > 0:32:43..what he's now suspected of?

0:32:43 > 0:32:45Do you think that's the problem? That he...?

0:32:45 > 0:32:47Yes, exactly.

0:32:48 > 0:32:51What, I think, if I grew my beard tomorrow

0:32:51 > 0:32:54and put a long coat on me

0:32:54 > 0:32:57and go out, and people will think that I am a fundamentalist.

0:32:57 > 0:33:00This has become a sign of a fundamentalist.

0:33:00 > 0:33:04Although I do not have any view of that sort.

0:33:04 > 0:33:06But my dressing and my beard

0:33:06 > 0:33:09will indicate that I am a fundamentalist, though I am not,

0:33:09 > 0:33:12and this is what possibly happened with Moazzam.

0:33:12 > 0:33:14The way the West is treating us now,

0:33:14 > 0:33:17it's got like a campaign on the Muslims, trying to persecute them,

0:33:17 > 0:33:18wherever they are.

0:33:18 > 0:33:21We're made to feel as if we are the guilty party,

0:33:21 > 0:33:23although we have nothing to do with it.

0:33:23 > 0:33:25I think the majority of Muslims realise that,

0:33:25 > 0:33:28whether we like it or not, things have changed.

0:33:28 > 0:33:29Whether we like it or not,

0:33:29 > 0:33:32we're on the defensive position most of the time because,

0:33:32 > 0:33:34whether it's said or unsaid now,

0:33:34 > 0:33:37there is this link between Islam and terrorism.

0:33:39 > 0:33:42The night of the 31st of January, 2002...

0:33:45 > 0:33:48..the wife and kids had gone to sleep

0:33:48 > 0:33:50and there was a knock on the door.

0:33:50 > 0:33:51KNOCKING

0:33:51 > 0:33:52It was midnight

0:33:52 > 0:33:56and it was strange to see the knock at the door at that time.

0:33:56 > 0:33:58I opened the door.

0:33:59 > 0:34:01There was a group of people standing there.

0:34:01 > 0:34:02A large group of people.

0:34:06 > 0:34:08Nobody in uniform. Nobody identifying themselves.

0:34:08 > 0:34:10Hardly any words said at all.

0:34:10 > 0:34:12They didn't even ask me who I was

0:34:12 > 0:34:15and they just stormed in and pushed me to the side,

0:34:15 > 0:34:19and one of them put a gun to me, to my head and...

0:34:22 > 0:34:24..pushed me on to the ground, onto my knees.

0:34:27 > 0:34:31They shackled my hands behind my back,

0:34:31 > 0:34:34put me into the prone position, shackled my legs.

0:34:35 > 0:34:37They hooded me and physically picked me up

0:34:37 > 0:34:39and carried me into the back of one of the vehicles

0:34:39 > 0:34:40they'd parked beside the house.

0:34:42 > 0:34:45And...that was it,

0:34:45 > 0:34:48I never saw my family again from that night.

0:34:48 > 0:34:50He rang me up round about one o'clock,

0:34:50 > 0:34:51according to our time...

0:34:53 > 0:34:54and said, "Daddy..."

0:34:57 > 0:35:01"..I have been arrested and kidnapped.

0:35:03 > 0:35:05"I'm speaking from the boot of a car."

0:35:06 > 0:35:09I do not understand how could he...

0:35:11 > 0:35:13..speak to me

0:35:13 > 0:35:15and who was speaking to me.

0:35:16 > 0:35:20Because it was whispering noise, or talk.

0:35:23 > 0:35:27And he said, "My wife and children are there...

0:35:30 > 0:35:34"..in a place where she doesn't know any language,

0:35:34 > 0:35:37"she doesn't have any money.

0:35:37 > 0:35:39"She has got all the children.

0:35:41 > 0:35:42"Please, help me."

0:35:46 > 0:35:50Inside the vehicle, they lifted the hood off my head, from the back.

0:35:52 > 0:35:57I saw two Caucasian-looking men and they spoke with American accents

0:35:57 > 0:36:00and they were dressed, I'd say very badly, as Pakistanis.

0:36:01 > 0:36:03And they, er...

0:36:03 > 0:36:05One of them said,

0:36:05 > 0:36:09"You can either answer our questions here, in Pakistan,

0:36:09 > 0:36:12"or you can answer them in Guantanamo Bay."

0:36:13 > 0:36:18And then one of the agents, he had a pair of handcuffs...

0:36:19 > 0:36:22..and he said, "I was given these handcuffs

0:36:22 > 0:36:27"by one of the wives of the victims of the September 11 attacks."

0:36:27 > 0:36:29And then he...

0:36:29 > 0:36:30put them on my cuffed hands.

0:36:30 > 0:36:32My hands were already cuffed, but he put them on...

0:36:34 > 0:36:35..my already cuffed hands.

0:36:37 > 0:36:39And I remember I said to him, I said,

0:36:39 > 0:36:43"Wouldn't she think you were stupid for catching the wrong person?"

0:36:47 > 0:36:50And then he put me on to this aircraft,

0:36:50 > 0:36:51a transport plane.

0:36:53 > 0:36:55I was seated on the floor.

0:36:57 > 0:36:59My hands were shackled behind my back.

0:36:59 > 0:37:00I had a hood over the head.

0:37:01 > 0:37:04I heard the sounds of these dogs barking...

0:37:06 > 0:37:09..the roar of the engines, the jet engines,

0:37:09 > 0:37:12the screams of other prisoners.

0:37:12 > 0:37:14I was trying my best not to shout or scream.

0:37:14 > 0:37:16There I was just sitting there.

0:37:16 > 0:37:19I had no idea where we're going or what's happening

0:37:19 > 0:37:22but I sensed that there were some people next to me.

0:37:22 > 0:37:25So I ended up speaking to this guy,

0:37:25 > 0:37:27who turned out to be a Libyan, I think,

0:37:27 > 0:37:29and I was shocked by his...

0:37:30 > 0:37:32..what was going on in his mind.

0:37:32 > 0:37:35We spoke in Arabic. We said, "Alaykum" to each other

0:37:35 > 0:37:38and it seemed to be like a mundane conversation.

0:37:38 > 0:37:41He said, "Brother, have you prayed? Like, the evening prayer?"

0:37:41 > 0:37:44And I said, "No, I haven't."

0:37:44 > 0:37:46And he said, "Don't you think we should?"

0:37:47 > 0:37:51And I said, "Yeah, I think probably now is a better time than any."

0:37:51 > 0:37:52And so...

0:37:53 > 0:37:57..he led the prayer, being on the left-hand side,

0:37:57 > 0:37:58and recited the prayer.

0:37:58 > 0:38:01At that point, an American soldier came over

0:38:01 > 0:38:04and he put a knife to my throat and he said,

0:38:04 > 0:38:07"If you speak again, I'll cut your throat."

0:38:07 > 0:38:11GUARD DOGS BARK AND SNARL

0:38:11 > 0:38:13When we landed at the airport in Kandahar,

0:38:13 > 0:38:15the Americans dragged us through the mud.

0:38:15 > 0:38:17It was freezing cold at the time.

0:38:19 > 0:38:20Two of them sat on top of me.

0:38:20 > 0:38:24One literally pushed his knee into the small of my back,

0:38:24 > 0:38:28the other one pushed his knee onto my head

0:38:28 > 0:38:31and then they started slicing off my clothes...

0:38:31 > 0:38:33with a knife.

0:38:33 > 0:38:35And then, once they'd done that...

0:38:36 > 0:38:40..shackled my hands behind my back and shackled my legs.

0:38:41 > 0:38:46I'm taken naked, with all these floodlights streaming onto me

0:38:46 > 0:38:48and all the other prisoners that they were pushing through

0:38:48 > 0:38:51this sort of conveyor belt and...

0:38:52 > 0:38:55..first, they shaved off my hair and my beard.

0:38:56 > 0:39:02Then they sprayed some, I think, delousing stuff over us.

0:39:04 > 0:39:08And then, while there were dogs barking all around,

0:39:08 > 0:39:12guards, soldiers were kicking and spitting and punching us,

0:39:12 > 0:39:13and taking photographs.

0:39:13 > 0:39:16I think they loved the photographs.

0:39:17 > 0:39:21And then off into this interrogation tent, one by one...

0:39:24 > 0:39:26..where there were two agents of the FBI.

0:39:26 > 0:39:28They had FBI caps on

0:39:28 > 0:39:30and they were asking each person,

0:39:30 > 0:39:32"When was the last time you saw Bin Laden?

0:39:32 > 0:39:36"When was the last time you saw Mullah Omar of the Taliban?"

0:39:36 > 0:39:37As I was kneeling...

0:39:38 > 0:39:41..with this hood over my head

0:39:41 > 0:39:43and all these guards standing around.

0:39:43 > 0:39:45When they lifted the hood over my head, I see Andrew.

0:39:47 > 0:39:50The same Andrew who'd been in my house and had met me in the UK.

0:39:51 > 0:39:53I had a simultaneous feeling of...

0:39:54 > 0:39:56..relief and shock.

0:39:57 > 0:40:00The relief was that, I know this face, I know this person.

0:40:00 > 0:40:02He'd been in my house.

0:40:02 > 0:40:05The shock was, "How can he be part of this?"

0:40:05 > 0:40:09I remember once Andrew brought over a Mars Bar...

0:40:10 > 0:40:12..at one of the interrogations.

0:40:12 > 0:40:14He dropped this Mars Bar in front of me and said,

0:40:14 > 0:40:17"Look, I've brought you this all the way from England."

0:40:18 > 0:40:21Which I thought was really funny, because I hate Mars.

0:40:28 > 0:40:33I've always maintained that Bagram was far worse than Guantanamo,

0:40:33 > 0:40:38because it included seeing two people being killed

0:40:38 > 0:40:40by the American soldiers. Two prisoners.

0:40:40 > 0:40:44I saw people tied up with chains around their bodies

0:40:44 > 0:40:49and connected to huge pipes, unable to move,

0:40:49 > 0:40:52and defecating upon themselves.

0:40:52 > 0:40:57There were soldiers atop what they called Overwatch,

0:40:57 > 0:41:01with an M-16 constantly pointing at us.

0:41:01 > 0:41:02We weren't allowed to walk.

0:41:02 > 0:41:05If we did talk, they'd take us to the front of the cell

0:41:05 > 0:41:08and tie our hands above our heads to the top of the cage

0:41:08 > 0:41:10and leave us suspended there for hours on end,

0:41:10 > 0:41:11with a hood over our heads.

0:41:13 > 0:41:15I hadn't seen natural light for almost a year.

0:41:15 > 0:41:20There was a CIA agent there and he had suggested that,

0:41:20 > 0:41:23if I cooperate with them, then they can open all sorts of doors

0:41:23 > 0:41:25for me and get me released and God knows what.

0:41:26 > 0:41:28I simply just didn't trust him.

0:41:30 > 0:41:33They'd say we'd stage a break-out for you

0:41:33 > 0:41:35and that would launch you into Al-Qaeda

0:41:35 > 0:41:37and you could escape into them

0:41:37 > 0:41:40and become part of their organisation

0:41:40 > 0:41:42and then report back to us.

0:41:43 > 0:41:46If you tried to run, or escape,

0:41:46 > 0:41:49there's no corner of the Earth where we couldn't find you.

0:41:49 > 0:41:55The CIA agent came and told me that, "I've decided to send you to Egypt."

0:41:55 > 0:41:58Another soldier then came up afterwards and said, "Moazzam,

0:41:58 > 0:41:59"we've sent people to Syria."

0:42:00 > 0:42:03They were asking all sorts of questions and they brought

0:42:03 > 0:42:06photographs of my children that they'd seized from my house,

0:42:06 > 0:42:09waved them in front of me. And, at the same time,

0:42:09 > 0:42:13there was the sounds of a woman screaming next door.

0:42:14 > 0:42:16Up until this point, many months had passed.

0:42:16 > 0:42:18I had no idea what had happened to my family

0:42:18 > 0:42:21from the time they had taken me away in Pakistan until now.

0:42:21 > 0:42:25I believed that what they were doing was trying to employ some sort of

0:42:25 > 0:42:30psychological torture, to make me believe that my wife was in custody,

0:42:30 > 0:42:32that she was being tortured next door.

0:42:32 > 0:42:35That my children were somehow being held

0:42:35 > 0:42:37or that they knew about them and I didn't.

0:42:45 > 0:42:49By the end of those weeks of custody, in Bagram, in May 2002,

0:42:49 > 0:42:54did you sign a confession to being a member of Al-Qaeda?

0:42:56 > 0:43:02Yes, I signed two confessions. Both these confessions were -

0:43:02 > 0:43:04one was in Bagram, one was in Guantanamo -

0:43:04 > 0:43:07but it was by the same agents.

0:43:07 > 0:43:14The same FBI agents who took... made me sign some documents -

0:43:14 > 0:43:16I can't even remember what they were.

0:43:16 > 0:43:24Then, returned again, in Guantanamo, and they'd produced some documents

0:43:24 > 0:43:26and they'd asked me to sign them again.

0:43:26 > 0:43:33In the first instance, it was completely out of the threats

0:43:33 > 0:43:36they were making about being tortured and sent to Syria

0:43:36 > 0:43:39and Egypt. In the second instance, they said, "If you don't sign,

0:43:39 > 0:43:42"you will be prosecuted at a summary court,

0:43:42 > 0:43:44"where you could face execution."

0:43:44 > 0:43:48And my reason for signing, at that time, was

0:43:48 > 0:43:50that at least if I sign,

0:43:50 > 0:43:54I'll get to go to court and in court, surely,

0:43:54 > 0:43:58the media will be present and so will other organisations

0:43:58 > 0:44:00and I can expose all of this. So, yes.

0:44:09 > 0:44:13I'd learnt from the CIA about the case of one particular individual,

0:44:13 > 0:44:16which has been extremely important, in my view,

0:44:16 > 0:44:19on the whole war on terror.

0:44:19 > 0:44:23It was the case of a man called Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi.

0:44:23 > 0:44:27The CIA agent in Bagram told me that,

0:44:27 > 0:44:30"If you don't cooperate with us,

0:44:30 > 0:44:34"we will do to you what we did to Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi."

0:44:34 > 0:44:38He told me that al-Libi had been seated in the very seat I was in...

0:44:43 > 0:44:44..and that they had sent him to Egypt.

0:44:44 > 0:44:50Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi was sent from Bagram in a coffin...

0:44:52 > 0:44:57..to a ship in the Persian Gulf called the USS Patton.

0:44:58 > 0:45:00A false confession was produced.

0:45:00 > 0:45:03The confession was that he, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi,

0:45:03 > 0:45:06as a member of Al-Qaeda, a senior member of Al-Qaeda,

0:45:06 > 0:45:11which I later learned he wasn't, was working with Saddam Hussein

0:45:11 > 0:45:12on obtaining weapons of mass destruction.

0:45:15 > 0:45:18I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative

0:45:18 > 0:45:22telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to Al-Qaeda.

0:45:26 > 0:45:28EXPLOSION

0:45:30 > 0:45:32EXPLOSION

0:45:59 > 0:46:02I'd heard that the journey to Guantanamo was about 36 hours,

0:46:02 > 0:46:04with a stop-over in Turkey, as well.

0:46:04 > 0:46:08I managed to plead with one of the guards, to get his attention,

0:46:08 > 0:46:10and asked, "Can you just give me a drug and knock me out?"

0:46:14 > 0:46:17I woke up in Guantanamo in a daze.

0:46:17 > 0:46:21Two British men are among the first Al-Qaeda terrorist suspects

0:46:21 > 0:46:24who will go on trial before American military tribunals.

0:46:24 > 0:46:26They are Moazzam Begg, from Birmingham,

0:46:26 > 0:46:29who was arrested by the CIA in Pakistan last year,

0:46:29 > 0:46:32and is now being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba...

0:46:33 > 0:46:37I always say to my husband, before he leaves the house,

0:46:37 > 0:46:40I always make sure that he is happy with me and I am happy with him

0:46:40 > 0:46:44and I always ask him to forgive me and he does the same.

0:46:44 > 0:46:48I normally see him when I go to sleep.

0:46:48 > 0:46:49I talk to him.

0:46:50 > 0:46:52I touch him.

0:46:53 > 0:46:54I feel him.

0:46:57 > 0:47:00But I don't believe that I'm going to see him.

0:47:05 > 0:47:08The experience of solitary confinement...

0:47:11 > 0:47:16..was, erm, destructive. Internally destructive, initially.

0:47:16 > 0:47:18So, I did have a couple of panic attacks

0:47:18 > 0:47:21and behaved in a way that I was never accustomed to -

0:47:21 > 0:47:22screaming and shouting,

0:47:22 > 0:47:24swearing and crying and punching the walls -

0:47:24 > 0:47:28just simply because I couldn't take being in that environment.

0:47:28 > 0:47:29It was...

0:47:31 > 0:47:33..corrosive.

0:47:34 > 0:47:40But they brought in a psychiatrist, who sat across on the opposite side

0:47:40 > 0:47:44and said, "Have you ever considered harming yourself?"

0:47:44 > 0:47:46I said, "No." She said,

0:47:46 > 0:47:49"Haven't you ever thought about taking your trousers off

0:47:49 > 0:47:55"and using those as a...as a noose?

0:47:55 > 0:47:59"And threading the trousers with your sheet, then tying it to

0:47:59 > 0:48:02"the corner of the cage and doing that?

0:48:02 > 0:48:04"Have you never thought of doing that?"

0:48:05 > 0:48:08I said, "No, not until you put that thought in my mind."

0:48:12 > 0:48:17What is happening to the human race in this world

0:48:17 > 0:48:19is that nobody can hear the truth,

0:48:19 > 0:48:22nobody wants to know what Moazzam Begg is in,

0:48:22 > 0:48:24for what reason.

0:48:25 > 0:48:31Eventually, I was moved from the solitary blocks to the main blocks.

0:48:33 > 0:48:35I was held in Camp Papa with five other prisoners.

0:48:35 > 0:48:38One of them was Australian and one of them was British.

0:48:38 > 0:48:40There were two Yemeni and one Sudanese.

0:48:40 > 0:48:44One of the Yemeni guys was a very charismatic man,

0:48:44 > 0:48:49who was responsible for some media production

0:48:49 > 0:48:52of Al-Qaeda's media wing.

0:48:52 > 0:48:54And so, he was a very intelligent man.

0:48:54 > 0:48:58Well read, well spoken, but also very influential.

0:49:13 > 0:49:14EXPLOSION AND SCREAMING

0:49:17 > 0:49:18EXPLOSION

0:49:24 > 0:49:27Your story and your position is always about,

0:49:27 > 0:49:30"Well, hang on, why are they targeting me?

0:49:30 > 0:49:34- "Can't they see the difference between me and them?"- Mm.

0:49:34 > 0:49:39In Camp Papa, you actually find yourself in very close proximity

0:49:39 > 0:49:44to someone who is an outspoken supporter of terrorist acts

0:49:44 > 0:49:48around the world - a supporter of Bin Laden.

0:49:50 > 0:49:53Was that a challenge to your belief system?

0:49:53 > 0:49:59His premise was that everybody in the West is not innocent,

0:49:59 > 0:50:01because they are part of democratic nations.

0:50:01 > 0:50:07Therefore, they all play a part in empowering the government

0:50:07 > 0:50:12to carry out its air strikes and occupation in Muslim lands.

0:50:12 > 0:50:16But, of course, my response to him was that, actually,

0:50:16 > 0:50:19there is an entire anti-war movement in Britain

0:50:19 > 0:50:23and the rest of the world. So, would you discriminate

0:50:23 > 0:50:26or would you simply see them all as collateral damage?

0:50:27 > 0:50:29Of course, he'd hit back and say,

0:50:29 > 0:50:30"Well, their bombs don't discriminate.

0:50:30 > 0:50:32"They bomb us and they...

0:50:32 > 0:50:34"If you look at what took place in Iraq

0:50:34 > 0:50:38"and the sanctions against the Iraqi people,

0:50:38 > 0:50:42"that led to the deaths of thousands of people every month."

0:50:42 > 0:50:46So, he had a response for it, but it still didn't make sense to me,

0:50:46 > 0:50:49from what I had understood and what I had always believed in.

0:50:49 > 0:50:53I have always believed that the concept of jihad

0:50:53 > 0:50:55that these guys were using is a noble one.

0:50:55 > 0:50:58It is one in which you are taught, we are taught,

0:50:58 > 0:51:00that civilians are not targeted.

0:51:00 > 0:51:03That women, children, old people

0:51:03 > 0:51:05are not to be targeted.

0:51:05 > 0:51:09And this was specifically laid down in the rules of engagement

0:51:09 > 0:51:12by early Muslims - by the Prophet and his companions.

0:51:12 > 0:51:14So, how you are disregarding this?

0:51:14 > 0:51:18And his response would be, "They do this to us,

0:51:18 > 0:51:20"therefore, we must be able to do it back to them."

0:51:20 > 0:51:22And, again, that is a Koranic verse, which says,

0:51:22 > 0:51:24"If you transgressed against,

0:51:24 > 0:51:25"then transgress against them

0:51:25 > 0:51:27"the way they transgressed against you".

0:51:27 > 0:51:29But I reminded him that these verses say,

0:51:29 > 0:51:32"But that you are patient is better for you."

0:51:33 > 0:51:37And, considering you are doing this in the name of virtue and religion,

0:51:37 > 0:51:40surely being patient, in some of these matters, is better.

0:51:40 > 0:51:42I'm not saying don't fight back.

0:51:42 > 0:51:44I am saying don't strike civilian targets.

0:51:44 > 0:51:49He is describing what he sees as legitimate resistance.

0:51:49 > 0:51:51So, at some point, do you not have to you either agree with him

0:51:51 > 0:51:54or just step off this soapbox?

0:51:54 > 0:51:57No, I disagree with him.

0:51:57 > 0:52:00I disagree with the targeting of civilians.

0:52:00 > 0:52:04I don't disagree with everything else that is being discussed,

0:52:04 > 0:52:06in terms of context and the history of what is going on

0:52:06 > 0:52:09and what is happening presently, in terms of the occupation -

0:52:09 > 0:52:11the right to resist, or the obligation to resist.

0:52:14 > 0:52:16But, clearly, the methods...

0:52:16 > 0:52:18I would say to him and he would say back, he said,

0:52:18 > 0:52:20"Look, we didn't invent car bombing.

0:52:20 > 0:52:22"We didn't invent bombing, either.

0:52:22 > 0:52:26"We didn't invent nuclear weapons. We didn't invent chemical weapons.

0:52:26 > 0:52:28"These are the guys who did it.

0:52:28 > 0:52:31"If you want to look at the history of who has been responsible

0:52:31 > 0:52:34"for mass killing and torture on a grand scale,

0:52:34 > 0:52:36these are the guys who celebrate the First World War

0:52:36 > 0:52:38"and the Second World War,

0:52:38 > 0:52:40"in which tens of millions of people died,

0:52:40 > 0:52:43"so these are the master killers on Earth."

0:52:43 > 0:52:44And he'd be right.

0:52:44 > 0:52:50You seem quite sympathetic towards this guy in this conversation.

0:52:50 > 0:52:52You are not denouncing him.

0:52:52 > 0:52:54You are just disagreeing with him politely.

0:52:54 > 0:52:58No, I think we are fundamentally disagreeing on the thing

0:52:58 > 0:53:03that people recognise that is wrong about Al-Qaeda.

0:53:03 > 0:53:05Al-Qaeda is not bad because they resist.

0:53:05 > 0:53:08Al-Qaeda is bad because they target civilians.

0:53:08 > 0:53:09If they didn't target civilians,

0:53:09 > 0:53:11it would be a different matter altogether.

0:53:11 > 0:53:17So, what you say is that Al-Qaeda is just as bad as America?

0:53:17 > 0:53:21Or Al-Qaeda's behaviour is somehow justified?

0:53:21 > 0:53:23Why are you not just saying, straight up,

0:53:23 > 0:53:26that this is the worst kind of hypocrisy,

0:53:26 > 0:53:29because it is hypocrisy in the name of Islam?

0:53:29 > 0:53:31It is not Islamic.

0:53:31 > 0:53:35Because I think that there are various layers to all of this.

0:53:37 > 0:53:39Al-Qaeda IS a Muslim organisation.

0:53:39 > 0:53:42They are not Hindus or Jews or Christians.

0:53:42 > 0:53:45They are Muslims, so we have to talk about them in Islamic terms.

0:53:46 > 0:53:51And the other... I may disagree with him, in terms of this,

0:53:51 > 0:53:53but I cannot say that they are not Muslims.

0:53:53 > 0:53:55That is completely false.

0:53:55 > 0:53:58And I'm not going to say something false just to please people.

0:53:58 > 0:54:00I don't want you to condemn them to please me.

0:54:00 > 0:54:06I'm trying to understand this from the point of view of...Islam.

0:54:07 > 0:54:11An organisation that uses the history and the traditions

0:54:11 > 0:54:13and the legacy of Islam

0:54:13 > 0:54:16and targets civilians.

0:54:16 > 0:54:20Where...? I don't see the room for discussion and dialogue in that.

0:54:20 > 0:54:24No, there is always space for dialogue, Islam or otherwise.

0:54:24 > 0:54:26There is always space for understanding.

0:54:26 > 0:54:28There is always space for evolvement of thought.

0:54:28 > 0:54:32That has to be understood. My discussion,

0:54:32 > 0:54:35in relation to 9/11 and what they did,

0:54:35 > 0:54:38and the embassy bombings and so forth,

0:54:38 > 0:54:40I was very clear about them.

0:54:40 > 0:54:43That's why I never accepted Al-Qaeda.

0:54:43 > 0:54:45I was never part of the organisation.

0:54:45 > 0:54:47I never joined it and never wanted to be part of it.

0:54:47 > 0:54:50Never met Bin Laden or any of his lieutenants,

0:54:50 > 0:54:51precisely for that reason -

0:54:51 > 0:54:54because I didn't agree with the organisation.

0:54:54 > 0:54:56I didn't want to be part of it.

0:54:57 > 0:54:59But the...

0:54:59 > 0:55:02I believe there has to be some kind of an understanding.

0:55:02 > 0:55:05There has to be some kind of a recognition of the arguments.

0:55:05 > 0:55:11And the arguments of Al-Qaeda... from an Islamic prism,

0:55:11 > 0:55:14from an Islamci prism, CAN be dismantled.

0:55:14 > 0:55:16The Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, is expected to announce

0:55:16 > 0:55:18that the four remaining Britons

0:55:18 > 0:55:21being held without charge at Guantanamo Bay

0:55:21 > 0:55:22are to be released.

0:55:22 > 0:55:26Feroz Abbasi, Moazzam Begg, Richard Belmar and Martin Mubanga

0:55:26 > 0:55:30have been held at the US naval base for nearly three years

0:55:30 > 0:55:32and could now be home within weeks.

0:55:32 > 0:55:37I think it was on the 25th January of 2005...

0:55:39 > 0:55:42..when, eventually, soldiers came to my cell,

0:55:42 > 0:55:46shackled me up once again and took me on to this coach,

0:55:46 > 0:55:49where there were three other British prisoners.

0:55:49 > 0:55:52And, for each prisoner, I think they had about ten soldiers.

0:55:52 > 0:55:55And I remember laughing to the other guys, you know -

0:55:55 > 0:55:57we are completely shackled up top to bottom,

0:55:57 > 0:55:59with extra padlocks for security - saying,

0:55:59 > 0:56:01"Listen, guys, these guys think

0:56:01 > 0:56:04"we are going to escape on our way to freedom

0:56:04 > 0:56:08"and that's why we've got extra security on us."

0:56:08 > 0:56:11Eventually, we arrived at the other side of the island

0:56:11 > 0:56:13and the planes were waiting for us.

0:56:13 > 0:56:16And the Americans, in their...forgetfulness,

0:56:16 > 0:56:19had forgotten the keys for the padlocks.

0:56:19 > 0:56:23So, they had to bring in these massive wire cutters

0:56:23 > 0:56:27and snap off the handcuffs and the chains,

0:56:27 > 0:56:30which I thought was so fitting for our end in Guantanamo.

0:56:30 > 0:56:37We walked then onto British military RAF planes.

0:56:37 > 0:56:41We were greeted by the police - uniformed officers -

0:56:41 > 0:56:44and seated on this aircraft.

0:56:45 > 0:56:47And they brought things for us.

0:56:47 > 0:56:50They brought crisps and chocolates and newspapers.

0:56:50 > 0:56:54The Sun. I could see us on the front page of The Sun,

0:56:54 > 0:56:55which was disconcerting,

0:56:55 > 0:56:59and...no more shackles.

0:56:59 > 0:57:01Just like that.

0:57:03 > 0:57:05We arrived in RAF Northolt.

0:57:05 > 0:57:08And on the plane, while I was still on the plane,

0:57:08 > 0:57:10some woman came along and said,

0:57:10 > 0:57:13"You are under arrest, under the Prevention of Terrorism Act."

0:57:13 > 0:57:18And they drove a police vehicle on to the aeroplane

0:57:18 > 0:57:19and then put me in the back of it

0:57:19 > 0:57:22and took me to Paddington Green Police Station,

0:57:22 > 0:57:26where I was taken to see, I think, the duty sergeant,

0:57:26 > 0:57:29and he offered me something really strange. He said,

0:57:29 > 0:57:31"Would you like to make a phone call?"

0:57:31 > 0:57:36And it just dawned on me that this is going to be the first opportunity

0:57:36 > 0:57:39I could get to speak to my family in three years.

0:57:41 > 0:57:44I said, "No, I don't even remember the number."

0:57:44 > 0:57:47Then, eventually, we were taken in a police vehicle

0:57:47 > 0:57:52to the house of my lawyer and I walked in.

0:57:52 > 0:57:56And there was my father and my brothers...

0:57:59 > 0:58:02..standing there, with tears in their eyes, crying,

0:58:02 > 0:58:04which is not usual for either of them...

0:58:04 > 0:58:07They are not, sort of, very emotional people.

0:58:07 > 0:58:09..and we embraced.

0:58:10 > 0:58:11And...

0:58:16 > 0:58:20I wasn't... Now, speaking about it, I can be quite emotional,

0:58:20 > 0:58:23but at the time, I wasn't. I think my tears had dried up.

0:58:23 > 0:58:25I had cried a lot in the early days.

0:58:25 > 0:58:30I had also cut myself off from too much thought of family

0:58:30 > 0:58:31and reunification with them.

0:58:31 > 0:58:36So I had become quite a solitary figure

0:58:36 > 0:58:38and had become used to being alone

0:58:38 > 0:58:41and dealing with my problems and issues alone.

0:58:41 > 0:58:44So now this was a flood of people and freedom

0:58:44 > 0:58:48and walking out of spaces larger than eight foot by six foot,

0:58:48 > 0:58:51it was quite a lot to take in.

0:58:52 > 0:58:57And then, shortly after that, my wife arrived with the children.

0:58:58 > 0:59:00It was hard enough to see the children,

0:59:00 > 0:59:03but there was an addition to the family, who I'd never seen before,

0:59:03 > 0:59:05and he was three years old now.

0:59:07 > 0:59:11My other younger children didn't really remember too much

0:59:11 > 0:59:13and they were kind of sleepy, because it was late.

0:59:13 > 0:59:16But my daughter, my eldest daughter, she was very emotional.

0:59:16 > 0:59:18She cried a lot, cos she remembered everything.

0:59:18 > 0:59:21She remembered the night I was taken, she remembered every detail,

0:59:21 > 0:59:25and she got really terribly affected by it.

0:59:27 > 0:59:28And my wife...

0:59:28 > 0:59:30Well, I'll leave that between us.

0:59:36 > 0:59:38One minute, minding your own business - bang!

0:59:38 > 0:59:41And we thought we were on fire. The smell, the smoke.

0:59:41 > 0:59:44You couldn't breathe, you couldn't see anything.

0:59:44 > 0:59:46Dead bodies on the tracks. The train blown over...

0:59:50 > 0:59:53- TONY BLAIR:- Time and again, over the past few weeks,

0:59:53 > 0:59:55I have been asked to deal firmly

0:59:55 > 0:59:59with those prepared to engage in such extremism

0:59:59 > 1:00:02and, most particularly, those who incite them.

1:00:02 > 1:00:06I did speak out against the bombings,

1:00:06 > 1:00:08the July 7th bombings,

1:00:08 > 1:00:10and I think somebody from MI5 heard me.

1:00:10 > 1:00:16And there was a woman who had visited me in Guantanamo,

1:00:16 > 1:00:20as an MI5 agent, and she called me,

1:00:20 > 1:00:23and they wanted to know my views about who might be responsible,

1:00:23 > 1:00:27who might have been behind the July 7th bombings.

1:00:27 > 1:00:31This was now the opportunity for me to ask them a few questions.

1:00:31 > 1:00:33"Do you realise that you were part of a process

1:00:33 > 1:00:38"that involved torture and abuse and you took full advantage of it?"

1:00:38 > 1:00:40They gave me the answer, "We were just doing our jobs."

1:00:40 > 1:00:42And I responded by saying, "Well,

1:00:42 > 1:00:45"that's what the Nazi concentration camp guards said at Nuremberg."

1:00:45 > 1:00:46It wasn't a defence.

1:00:50 > 1:00:53I pursued a legal litigation against them

1:00:53 > 1:00:57over a period of the next several years.

1:00:58 > 1:01:01Do you feel loyal to Britain?

1:01:01 > 1:01:03My Britishness isn't determined by this government.

1:01:03 > 1:01:05That's a very important point I think that I need to make.

1:01:05 > 1:01:09That, as far as me feeling British, I do feel British,

1:01:09 > 1:01:11because I can't be anything else. I am also a Muslim

1:01:11 > 1:01:13and I can't be anything else,

1:01:13 > 1:01:15cos that is what I've chosen as my faith.

1:01:15 > 1:01:17The two are not incompatible.

1:01:17 > 1:01:18The two are...

1:01:18 > 1:01:21One is an identity, as to your nationality,

1:01:21 > 1:01:24- and one is a faith.- Well, you do have a choice, actually.

1:01:24 > 1:01:28You can choose, as you did in 2001, to go and live somewhere else.

1:01:28 > 1:01:32If you are truly appalled by the nature of the current government

1:01:32 > 1:01:35in the United Kingdom, a democratic government, it should be said,

1:01:35 > 1:01:38you can go and live somewhere else. You chose to go to Afghanistan...

1:01:38 > 1:01:40But that wasn't because

1:01:40 > 1:01:42I was appalled at Britain's foreign policy so badly

1:01:42 > 1:01:44that I had to go and leave and not live in this country any more.

1:01:44 > 1:01:46No, but now, I am saying, if you are...

1:01:46 > 1:01:49You just said that you do not feel loyal to this government,

1:01:49 > 1:01:52- you could choose to go somewhere else.- I didn't say

1:01:52 > 1:01:54I didn't feel any loyalty. There's many people in this country

1:01:54 > 1:01:56that oppose the government's foreign policy.

1:01:56 > 1:01:58And millions of people marched against the war.

1:01:58 > 1:02:00Are you now insinuating or suggesting

1:02:00 > 1:02:02that they should all leave the country?

1:02:02 > 1:02:05They had committed a crime.

1:02:05 > 1:02:08They had committed a crime and they were getting away with it.

1:02:08 > 1:02:10It wasn't just me, it was all these other people.

1:02:10 > 1:02:13And there is a bigger question that had to be settled here.

1:02:15 > 1:02:20Are the security services that are an arm, an active arm,

1:02:20 > 1:02:21of the government,

1:02:21 > 1:02:24that are operating under the government's auspices,

1:02:24 > 1:02:28are they accountable to ordinary people like me?

1:02:28 > 1:02:30To, in fact, vilify people like me?

1:02:30 > 1:02:32I wanted to seek an apology.

1:02:32 > 1:02:35Let's just remember that all the former Guantanamo detainees

1:02:35 > 1:02:38have claimed that they were completely innocent

1:02:38 > 1:02:40of any wrongdoing, ever,

1:02:40 > 1:02:43and we have to take this as gospel truth.

1:02:43 > 1:02:46But tonight, we are looking at allegations of torture, aren't we?

1:02:46 > 1:02:48And these people, these same people,

1:02:48 > 1:02:52have now managed to manoeuvre themselves into position

1:02:52 > 1:02:54where they are making serious allegations

1:02:54 > 1:02:56against serving officers,

1:02:56 > 1:03:00who are charged with protecting us in very difficult circumstances.

1:03:00 > 1:03:03I have always said that MI5 were present

1:03:03 > 1:03:06at every leg of the journey during my incarceration,

1:03:06 > 1:03:08and that was in Pakistan, in Kandahar,

1:03:08 > 1:03:10in Bagram and in Guantanamo Bay.

1:03:10 > 1:03:14And in the last instances of me being met by MI5, in fact,

1:03:14 > 1:03:16the Foreign Office were present.

1:03:16 > 1:03:19So, there is no denying that MI5 were involved in the interrogation,

1:03:19 > 1:03:21not just of British residents,

1:03:21 > 1:03:24but in fact of British citizens, of whom I am one.

1:03:32 > 1:03:36We are saying, "Enough of the regime! This is a corrupt regime!

1:03:43 > 1:03:46The Arab Spring opened doors into countries and places

1:03:46 > 1:03:49where I never thought I would ever be able to go,

1:03:49 > 1:03:52as a former Guantanamo prisoner.

1:03:53 > 1:03:56Places where the Americans had threatened to send me

1:03:56 > 1:03:58if I didn't cooperate.

1:04:00 > 1:04:02I had to fight for the next three years to get my passport back,

1:04:02 > 1:04:03to be able to travel.

1:04:03 > 1:04:05And this time round,

1:04:05 > 1:04:09my travel had been directed by my experience.

1:04:09 > 1:04:11To go to countries

1:04:11 > 1:04:15seeking the role of the British government, the American government,

1:04:15 > 1:04:17and their role in torture.

1:04:19 > 1:04:22The first place I went, out of all these places, was Egypt

1:04:22 > 1:04:26and tried to make links with those who had been imprisoned

1:04:26 > 1:04:31and try to find out who had come across the case

1:04:31 > 1:04:35of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. Documents had been destroyed.

1:04:35 > 1:04:38It was very difficult to find anybody who could link us to that.

1:04:38 > 1:04:40But then I went into Tunisia.

1:04:41 > 1:04:44And then, into Libya, crucially,

1:04:44 > 1:04:46and, in Libya, I went to Abu Salim Prison.

1:04:46 > 1:04:48That is where Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi turned up dead.

1:04:48 > 1:04:52And I walked into the cell where he supposedly committed suicide -

1:04:52 > 1:04:55which was quite evident it's not possible to hang yourself there.

1:04:55 > 1:04:58There's nothing to attach a sheet to.

1:04:58 > 1:05:01And then I spoke to numerous prisoners,

1:05:01 > 1:05:04who had been held with him and alongside him in prison,

1:05:04 > 1:05:07and they told me, clearly, that this person had been...

1:05:10 > 1:05:12..wilfully killed

1:05:12 > 1:05:16and that the story that had come out about him...

1:05:18 > 1:05:21..they didn't want anybody ever hearing it.

1:05:21 > 1:05:23They wanted to shut him up.

1:05:27 > 1:05:30If we take a look at the hill there on the top...

1:05:32 > 1:05:35..you can see a Syrian checkpoint.

1:05:35 > 1:05:40What he said is that that entire area in front of us

1:05:40 > 1:05:42has now been mined by landmines.

1:05:42 > 1:05:46That is because over 17,000 refugees came over this way

1:05:46 > 1:05:48and the Syrian government didn't like that.

1:05:48 > 1:05:52Therefore, they placed these mines so that nobody could come across.

1:05:52 > 1:05:55'I was following leads'

1:05:55 > 1:05:56of rendition victims

1:05:56 > 1:06:00who had been handed over by the Americans to the Syrian government.

1:06:00 > 1:06:04And, so I wrote about this when I returned

1:06:04 > 1:06:07and I received a call by MI5.

1:06:07 > 1:06:10I told them, "I am ready to speak to you,

1:06:10 > 1:06:14"but I have to warn you that my work there includes trying to find out

1:06:14 > 1:06:16"what you have been up to."

1:06:16 > 1:06:20And he called back again and said, "OK, we'd like to speak to you,

1:06:20 > 1:06:22"but our lawyer will be present."

1:06:22 > 1:06:24So, we did arrange to meet - me and my lawyer present

1:06:24 > 1:06:27and MI5 and theirs - and we spoke for a little while.

1:06:27 > 1:06:29The last thing they said to me, at the end of that conversation,

1:06:29 > 1:06:32after I said, "If I get prevented from entering Turkey,

1:06:32 > 1:06:34"I will know it is cos you don't want me to go there."

1:06:34 > 1:06:37And they said, "There will be no hindrance from us,"

1:06:37 > 1:06:38and that was it. And then I went again,

1:06:38 > 1:06:41for a longer period this time, in 2012.

1:06:41 > 1:06:42I met with fighters.

1:06:42 > 1:06:46Loads of fighters from all over the world had come

1:06:46 > 1:06:47and I saw that...

1:06:49 > 1:06:52..there was a great deal of zeal from amongst these people

1:06:52 > 1:06:54and not a lot of expertise

1:06:54 > 1:06:57and they were shooting themselves in the foot sometimes,

1:06:57 > 1:07:00shooting each other, sometimes, by accident.

1:07:00 > 1:07:06So, I got together some former soldiers,

1:07:06 > 1:07:08some doctors and other people

1:07:08 > 1:07:10and asked them to make, together,

1:07:10 > 1:07:13a programme that can help to make a defence system

1:07:13 > 1:07:16where people don't have to suffer these basic...

1:07:18 > 1:07:21..mistakes, or to die as a result of them.

1:07:24 > 1:07:27Having conquered territory and declared his caliphate,

1:07:27 > 1:07:29Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is trying

1:07:29 > 1:07:31to recruit followers to his cause.

1:07:31 > 1:07:36But it is a cause so full of violent excesses that, all over the region,

1:07:36 > 1:07:40many Muslims - Shi'ites and Sunnis - are recoiling in horror.

1:07:41 > 1:07:44If you were to ask me, do I believe in the right of resistance

1:07:44 > 1:07:47and fighting and calling that resistance Jihad?

1:07:47 > 1:07:49I will always do.

1:07:49 > 1:07:51Until the day I die, I will believe in that.

1:07:53 > 1:07:54But that does not mean...

1:07:56 > 1:07:59It is very important that it is clear in my mind,

1:07:59 > 1:08:02before it is in anybody else's,

1:08:02 > 1:08:07that the right to self defence is not the right to offend.

1:08:07 > 1:08:09It is not the right to be offensive.

1:08:11 > 1:08:14It is not the right to violate. It is not the right to abuse.

1:08:14 > 1:08:19Moazzam Begg, there is an old English phrase,

1:08:19 > 1:08:21"There's no smoke without fire."

1:08:21 > 1:08:23What is jihad, if it is not terrorism?

1:08:23 > 1:08:27- It's not...- I know it's not. What is it?- It is about rising above,

1:08:27 > 1:08:31and sometimes it is a jihad just to be just to your enemy.

1:08:31 > 1:08:34There is a verse in the Koran that says, "Oh, you who have believed,

1:08:34 > 1:08:35"stand up as just witnesses for God

1:08:35 > 1:08:38"and do not allow your animosity of a people

1:08:38 > 1:08:40"to cause you to do them an injustice".

1:08:40 > 1:08:44So, intrinsically, you are a supporter of jihad

1:08:44 > 1:08:49as magnanimous rising - magnanimous - rising above conflict?

1:08:49 > 1:08:52That is the aspiration. The aspiration IS to rise above.

1:08:52 > 1:08:54- Yes.- It isn't the reality.

1:08:54 > 1:08:57The reality is that jihad has now become synonymous with terrorism.

1:08:57 > 1:09:00Yes, and you are trying to fight that?

1:09:00 > 1:09:03That will never be my belief or that of the majority of Muslims.

1:09:03 > 1:09:07On February 24th, I think it was, 2014,

1:09:07 > 1:09:10it was deja vu.

1:09:10 > 1:09:12All of these police officers coming into my house.

1:09:12 > 1:09:15Again, they didn't storm in. They didn't bash the door down.

1:09:15 > 1:09:18They knocked the door and they turned up into my room,

1:09:18 > 1:09:20after my wife had opened the door.

1:09:20 > 1:09:22They gathered all my children into one room

1:09:22 > 1:09:25and allowed me to put some clothes on.

1:09:26 > 1:09:29I went and hugged my children and my wife.

1:09:29 > 1:09:32My wife was in tears. The children were not so much.

1:09:33 > 1:09:36I said, "Don't worry, I'll be back soon."

1:09:36 > 1:09:38They raced from Coventry,

1:09:38 > 1:09:41where I was held in the police station, with six vehicles,

1:09:41 > 1:09:43as if I'm one of the greatest terrorist captures ever.

1:09:43 > 1:09:48Sirens blazing, going at about 90mph, straight to the court.

1:09:48 > 1:09:51Rushing in, people... The media are all outside.

1:09:51 > 1:09:55Denying me bail and then sending me off to Belmarsh.

1:09:55 > 1:09:58And not only did they do that, they put me as a Category A prisoner,

1:09:58 > 1:10:01like the most dangerous prisoners in Belmarsh.

1:10:01 > 1:10:05The charge was providing fitness training

1:10:05 > 1:10:08to the Syrian rebels and sending a generator,

1:10:08 > 1:10:09an electricity generator,

1:10:09 > 1:10:12to one of them. I...I was...

1:10:12 > 1:10:14I wanted to laugh, but it was serious,

1:10:14 > 1:10:18because it carried a maximum of 15 years in prison.

1:10:19 > 1:10:22And then, as time went on, and I spoke with my lawyer,

1:10:22 > 1:10:23Gareth Peirce, and others,

1:10:23 > 1:10:26and started to see the case bit by bit by bit,

1:10:26 > 1:10:29all my anxiety turned into something else.

1:10:29 > 1:10:30It turned into defiance.

1:10:30 > 1:10:34Not just defiance, not just... "Oh, gosh, I'm scared of court."

1:10:34 > 1:10:36I cannot wait to go into court.

1:10:38 > 1:10:41Let's bring this fight on, finally. Let's do this in court.

1:10:41 > 1:10:42Let Moazzam Begg,

1:10:42 > 1:10:46who's been detained in four military detention camps,

1:10:46 > 1:10:49in three prison camps,

1:10:49 > 1:10:50in Belmarsh, and God knows where,

1:10:50 > 1:10:52let him come to court, for God's sake.

1:10:52 > 1:10:55"You've been threatening me with court for yours on end.

1:10:55 > 1:10:57"Let's go there."

1:10:57 > 1:10:59Because I was looking at the evidence and thinking,

1:10:59 > 1:11:03"My God, these people just do not know what they are talking about."

1:11:03 > 1:11:06You can see here my clear views on Isis, before Isis was born.

1:11:06 > 1:11:08And when it was born, you can see

1:11:08 > 1:11:10that I'm one of the first voices against it.

1:11:10 > 1:11:15Moazzam Begg, free after seven months in prison.

1:11:15 > 1:11:16'The case collapsed on its demerits.

1:11:18 > 1:11:19'On how weak it was.'

1:11:19 > 1:11:21And I think it's important to point out

1:11:21 > 1:11:24some of the government's failures in its foreign policy

1:11:24 > 1:11:25and its internal policy

1:11:25 > 1:11:28and its clear demonising of the Muslim community.

1:11:28 > 1:11:30'They presented,'

1:11:30 > 1:11:32in the government's case against me,

1:11:32 > 1:11:35a document that was handed over by the US State Department.

1:11:35 > 1:11:37So, essentially, they were producing evidence

1:11:37 > 1:11:40that was obtained through torture in Guantanamo,

1:11:40 > 1:11:41without any legal process.

1:11:41 > 1:11:44They were going to use it in court, and I thought that was brilliant.

1:11:44 > 1:11:47"This is exactly the kind of thing, the kind of stupidity,

1:11:47 > 1:11:49"the government is going to try to use."

1:11:49 > 1:11:54Investigating terrorism offences in Syria is hard

1:11:54 > 1:11:58and we are learning better ways of doing that all of the time.

1:11:58 > 1:12:01And those that we suspect of committing those offences,

1:12:01 > 1:12:02we will investigate.

1:12:04 > 1:12:07The laughable part of it was the Arabic conversations

1:12:07 > 1:12:08that I'd had in my car,

1:12:08 > 1:12:11where, for example, somebody says...

1:12:14 > 1:12:17"What's Syria like? What's your view on Syria?"

1:12:17 > 1:12:19And I say, in Arabic, to him

1:12:19 > 1:12:24that what's important to me isn't the Islamic State.

1:12:24 > 1:12:26In fact, I wasn't there to fight for an Islamic state.

1:12:26 > 1:12:29I was there for musaeadat almazlumin,

1:12:29 > 1:12:30which means "helping the oppressed".

1:12:30 > 1:12:33So, they translate this as,

1:12:33 > 1:12:35"Begg here is talking about a jidahi group

1:12:35 > 1:12:37"called Musaeadat Almazlumin."

1:12:37 > 1:12:39With a rudimentary translation of Arabic, they would have...

1:12:39 > 1:12:41They would have understood.

1:12:41 > 1:12:44That information, when we've looked at it with the CPS

1:12:44 > 1:12:46in considerable detail,

1:12:46 > 1:12:49over quite a long period of time now, we have come to the conclusion,

1:12:49 > 1:12:51and it is the CPS's decision,

1:12:51 > 1:12:55that there is no longer sufficient evidence to provide

1:12:55 > 1:12:58a realistic prospect that there would be a conviction.

1:12:58 > 1:13:00So, it is right today, at the earliest opportunity,

1:13:00 > 1:13:03that the case is withdrawn and, let's be clear,

1:13:03 > 1:13:05Moazzam Begg is innocent.

1:13:06 > 1:13:08I have to say, you are an innocent man.

1:13:08 > 1:13:09You are not guilty of anything.

1:13:09 > 1:13:14But yet, you have been in these places and, in 2002,

1:13:14 > 1:13:16you were held in Bagram in Afghanistan, for a year,

1:13:16 > 1:13:19and then transferred to Guantanamo for two years.

1:13:19 > 1:13:22Last year, you were held in a British prison,

1:13:22 > 1:13:24in south London, Belmarsh.

1:13:24 > 1:13:27Is it, perhaps, justified that there may be

1:13:27 > 1:13:30some suspicion hanging around you?

1:13:30 > 1:13:32Well, I understood, especially after September the 11th,

1:13:32 > 1:13:35the need to speak to me or the need to speak to people

1:13:35 > 1:13:38who have an interesting background. I understood that.

1:13:38 > 1:13:41But what I didn't understand, and still cannot understand,

1:13:41 > 1:13:43is the need to torture, abuse, false imprisonment,

1:13:43 > 1:13:48- kidnap and rape, in some cases. - That never happened to you.

1:13:48 > 1:13:49It did. It all happened to me.

1:13:49 > 1:13:51And all of those things happened,

1:13:51 > 1:13:53without me going into the detail of it,

1:13:53 > 1:13:55all of those things happened to us, to all of the prisoners.

1:13:55 > 1:13:57And there isn't anybody who hasn't gone through

1:13:57 > 1:13:59those things that I've just said.

1:13:59 > 1:14:02- Is that Guantanamo or Bagram you are talking about?- In both places.

1:14:02 > 1:14:05So, you can understand the need talk to somebody.

1:14:05 > 1:14:08And I've never been against that idea, to talk to people.

1:14:08 > 1:14:12But this descending upon people, based upon their faith,

1:14:12 > 1:14:13based upon where they've been,

1:14:13 > 1:14:16based upon what the notion of their ideas are,

1:14:16 > 1:14:18which haven't been challenged in a court of law,

1:14:18 > 1:14:21and then to somehow demonise them is something that is completely wrong.

1:14:21 > 1:14:24The only conclusion I can come to, as to why that all happened,

1:14:24 > 1:14:26and that whole process, is...

1:14:26 > 1:14:28at best, it's a confused policy

1:14:28 > 1:14:31of they don't know what they are doing.

1:14:31 > 1:14:33But I can't give them that benefit of the doubt.

1:14:33 > 1:14:35In fact, this was vindictive.

1:14:35 > 1:14:38It was malicious. It was designed to come after me,

1:14:38 > 1:14:41because one thing I've been saying continuously

1:14:41 > 1:14:45is that you guys have been involved in the rendition of victims

1:14:45 > 1:14:47that caused the war in Iraq.

1:14:47 > 1:14:50And now I am saying something even greater than that,

1:14:50 > 1:14:54which is you guys, through your lies and your torture,

1:14:54 > 1:15:00caused the disintegration of Iraq, the rise of Al-Qaeda in Iraq

1:15:00 > 1:15:04and its metamorphosis into Islamic State in Iraq,

1:15:04 > 1:15:06the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham and, ultimately,

1:15:06 > 1:15:09Islamic State. That's what I'm saying.

1:15:09 > 1:15:12So, tonight, with a new Iraqi government in place,

1:15:12 > 1:15:15I can announce that America will lead a broad coalition

1:15:15 > 1:15:18to roll back this terrorist threat.

1:15:18 > 1:15:20Our objective is clear.

1:15:20 > 1:15:24We will degrade and, ultimately, destroy Isil.

1:15:24 > 1:15:26Another day, another propaganda video

1:15:26 > 1:15:28from what are thought to be British jihadis

1:15:28 > 1:15:29fighting in the Middle East.

1:15:29 > 1:15:32Some officials say about 500 have gone there

1:15:32 > 1:15:33to fight for Islamic State.

1:15:33 > 1:15:36Others say the figure is much higher.

1:15:36 > 1:15:38SIRENS WAIL

1:15:40 > 1:15:44The right approach to this is to identify the problem you face -

1:15:44 > 1:15:47the poisonous Islamist extremist narrative -

1:15:47 > 1:15:49and then you have to take it on everywhere it appears,

1:15:49 > 1:15:50including at home.

1:15:52 > 1:15:54Clearly, the government has a narrative

1:15:54 > 1:15:56and that narrative it's trying to push

1:15:56 > 1:15:58and I am challenging that narrative.

1:16:00 > 1:16:03And it is saying that this is all about ideology.

1:16:03 > 1:16:05It is about my belief, about my religion.

1:16:05 > 1:16:07Essentially, that is what this is about.

1:16:07 > 1:16:09And I am saying to you, no, it's not.

1:16:09 > 1:16:11It is about what you have been doing.

1:16:11 > 1:16:15It is about torturing and bombing and abusing and killing

1:16:15 > 1:16:17and imprisoning without charge or trial.

1:16:17 > 1:16:19That is what it is about.

1:16:22 > 1:16:25The hostages that were held by Isis,

1:16:25 > 1:16:28why are they dressed in orange suits? I thought, initially,

1:16:28 > 1:16:31that it is to show solidarity with the Guantanamo prisoners.

1:16:31 > 1:16:33But it's not.

1:16:34 > 1:16:4017 of the 25 leaders of Isis were detained and imprisoned

1:16:40 > 1:16:42in Camp Bucca, under the Americans.

1:16:44 > 1:16:46They themselves were dressed in orange suits.

1:16:46 > 1:16:51The leaders of Isis were dressed in orange suits in Camp Bucca.

1:16:51 > 1:16:54And still, to this day, nobody has come out with the true story

1:16:54 > 1:16:57of the nature of the torturing and abuse that took place in Iraq.

1:16:57 > 1:16:59And this is an example.

1:16:59 > 1:17:01In 2010,

1:17:01 > 1:17:06Obama prevented the publication of thousands of photographs

1:17:06 > 1:17:09that had been taken by American soldiers of abuse.

1:17:11 > 1:17:14What he didn't understand, and what those people

1:17:14 > 1:17:16trying to defend this position didn't understand,

1:17:16 > 1:17:18is that the damage is already done.

1:17:18 > 1:17:22Those people already had that experience - photograph or not.

1:17:22 > 1:17:25Is it little wonder that Iraq has become as brutal as it is?

1:17:27 > 1:17:30My argument, and what I've been presenting over all of these years,

1:17:30 > 1:17:32is an uncomfortable one for them to take, to accept.

1:17:32 > 1:17:36They will never accept that foreign and internal policy

1:17:36 > 1:17:43has been what has been driving people to this point of desperation,

1:17:43 > 1:17:46because these acts of terrorism often come from desperation.

1:17:46 > 1:17:49I can tell you now, the way I feel often at home,

1:17:49 > 1:17:50is that I feel desperate.

1:17:50 > 1:17:52Not desperate enough to harm anybody, I'm not like that,

1:17:52 > 1:17:54but desperate enough to say,

1:17:54 > 1:17:56"I've had enough of this country. I want to get out. I hate it here".

1:17:57 > 1:18:02One of the most shocking terrorist attacks any European city has seen.

1:18:02 > 1:18:05An off-duty soldier mowed down in an East London street

1:18:05 > 1:18:09by two fellow Britons, who then try to decapitate him with a knife.

1:18:09 > 1:18:13His attackers, Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale,

1:18:13 > 1:18:15were both given life sentences.

1:18:18 > 1:18:21Jihadi John - he's appeared in numerous Islamic State videos,

1:18:21 > 1:18:23threatening the West.

1:18:23 > 1:18:26But today, David Cameron announced that a joint operation,

1:18:26 > 1:18:29involving one British and two American drones,

1:18:29 > 1:18:31had probably killed Emwazi.

1:18:31 > 1:18:34Emwazi, I think he said that he was beaten up

1:18:34 > 1:18:37by one of the security service people at the airport.

1:18:37 > 1:18:39He said, "I'm a dead man walking."

1:18:39 > 1:18:41He said he feels paranoid and suicidal.

1:18:41 > 1:18:43Adebolajo and Emwazi,

1:18:43 > 1:18:47these are extreme examples of how bad it can go.

1:18:49 > 1:18:52People might ask this question - what if the security services

1:18:52 > 1:18:55had dealt with them in a different way?

1:18:55 > 1:18:59Is it conceivable that they wouldn't have become the murderers

1:18:59 > 1:19:02that they did? Or were they going to do that regardless?

1:19:02 > 1:19:06It's a question that nobody even wants to ask.

1:19:06 > 1:19:08And I am the last one to defend these guys.

1:19:08 > 1:19:13I completely oppose and reject what they have done,

1:19:13 > 1:19:17but to ask the question - because here is a question -

1:19:17 > 1:19:20if security services are not responsible

1:19:20 > 1:19:24in the cases of Adebolajo and Emwazi, in any way, at all,

1:19:24 > 1:19:28then are they responsible in what they did with me?

1:19:28 > 1:19:30Or are they not responsible for that either?

1:19:30 > 1:19:33They are not responsible for creating the dodgy dossier?

1:19:33 > 1:19:35They are not responsible for the torture of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi?

1:19:35 > 1:19:38They are not responsible for anything that they do?

1:19:38 > 1:19:41They are completely immune. And if that's the case,

1:19:41 > 1:19:45then they should be clear, that we follow in this regard...

1:19:47 > 1:19:51..Egyptian law or Syrian law or Libyan law,

1:19:51 > 1:19:55because, in those places, people are also immune from prosecution

1:19:55 > 1:19:58if they are in power.

1:19:58 > 1:20:01You focus a lot on how the British authorities should deal with this,

1:20:01 > 1:20:04but what about within the Muslim community itself?

1:20:04 > 1:20:07When you've got numerous Muslim countries being bombed,

1:20:07 > 1:20:08being hit by drone strikes,

1:20:08 > 1:20:11where people are being captured from and renditioned to secret

1:20:11 > 1:20:14- detention sites, it's hardly the right time...- Most Muslims

1:20:14 > 1:20:17- are killed by other Muslims. - 98% of the terrorism in the West

1:20:17 > 1:20:19is carried out by white, non-Muslim Westerners.

1:20:19 > 1:20:21- All right, so... - So, that's an obvious fact.

1:20:21 > 1:20:23So, my answer to your question, briefly, then,

1:20:23 > 1:20:25is should there not be a debate about values

1:20:25 > 1:20:28within the Muslim community, for whatever reason,

1:20:28 > 1:20:31otherwise we are going to get what some people fear -

1:20:31 > 1:20:32a clash of civilisations...

1:20:32 > 1:20:35- I don't think....- ..where the two cultures don't work?

1:20:35 > 1:20:38The clash is already happening, but it is not of civilisations.

1:20:38 > 1:20:41It is of bully nations against weaker nations.

1:20:41 > 1:20:45Bully nations against weaker people. I will give you an example...

1:20:45 > 1:20:47- One of the...- Is it bully nations? I've just said to you that it is

1:20:47 > 1:20:49more Muslims being killed by other Muslims,

1:20:49 > 1:20:52- often within Muslim countries. - I understand that,

1:20:52 > 1:20:55but when we are talking about terrorism,

1:20:55 > 1:20:57as I say to you again, this statement,

1:20:57 > 1:21:01that 98% of the terrorism in the West is carried out by non-Muslims.

1:21:01 > 1:21:04So, we can't jump on this bandwagon and say that

1:21:04 > 1:21:07because Charlie Hebdo happened, or because July 7th -

1:21:07 > 1:21:10and these are flash in the pan events -

1:21:10 > 1:21:12that this is indicative of the entire Muslim community.

1:21:12 > 1:21:14- There's 50 million of us. - All right. 20 seconds.

1:21:14 > 1:21:16No clash, then, between Muslims,

1:21:16 > 1:21:19particularly those living in the West and other people here?

1:21:19 > 1:21:20Well, there is a clash,

1:21:20 > 1:21:23in the sense that Muslims are being constantly attacked.

1:21:23 > 1:21:25But there isn't a response by Muslims,

1:21:25 > 1:21:27in that that they are responding with violence.

1:21:27 > 1:21:29All they are doing is reasserting their identity.

1:21:31 > 1:21:34In terms of Britain, I think...

1:21:34 > 1:21:38I certainly subscribe to... I love the idea of multicultural Britain.

1:21:39 > 1:21:41I support it completely.

1:21:41 > 1:21:43I love my history here.

1:21:43 > 1:21:46I love the fact that I went to a Jewish school here.

1:21:46 > 1:21:49I love the fact that I had friends from various backgrounds

1:21:49 > 1:21:52and experienced and understood and valued their cultures

1:21:52 > 1:21:55and their faiths and their religions and all the differences.

1:21:55 > 1:21:59What I don't appreciate is the targeting of one specific community.

1:22:01 > 1:22:07And that is what I have seen and have been part of being affected by.

1:22:07 > 1:22:11False imprisonment, again, it is a crime.

1:22:11 > 1:22:14Torture, being complicit in torture, is a crime.

1:22:14 > 1:22:18My family have grown up, my kids have grown up, watching this.

1:22:18 > 1:22:21They have seen the effects of not being able to travel,

1:22:21 > 1:22:24of being at the constant mercy of the government.

1:22:24 > 1:22:27Every time there is a knock on my door, I think it's the police.

1:22:27 > 1:22:32While I was in prison, pigs' heads were thrown outside my home.

1:22:32 > 1:22:34We are living in a state of terror.

1:22:34 > 1:22:39We are terrified of, not just acts of terrorism by nutty individuals,

1:22:39 > 1:22:44but the responses by the government and populist media.

1:22:44 > 1:22:48Sometimes I feel that the onslaught is so huge

1:22:48 > 1:22:50that I want to retreat into my own community.

1:22:50 > 1:22:54And when that happens, then it becomes an us and them thing.

1:22:54 > 1:22:56And I don't want to see that happen to Britain,

1:22:56 > 1:22:58because I do actually love this country.