0:00:01 > 0:00:07This programme contains some strong language
0:00:16 > 0:00:18Do I look presentable?
0:00:18 > 0:00:21- Yep.- You know, I'm quite an old lady now.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24Thanks for getting the Mini Bites, Mum.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27How many have you had?
0:00:27 > 0:00:28- Please!- Can I have one, too?
0:00:28 > 0:00:30Of course you can.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32- Where's Dad?- He's resting.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34I'm just going to make Dad a cup of tea, then we're going to start.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36Another cup of tea?
0:00:36 > 0:00:42My God, it's a wonder he doesn't look like a cup of tea, that man!
0:00:42 > 0:00:43PHONE RINGS
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Oh, go away, for goodness' sake.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Joe, can you just set up that camera, please?
0:00:49 > 0:00:53Oh? Thank you. Well, I'm actually sitting down,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55waiting to be interviewed.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00- Mum, we want to start. - We've got to go, doll.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Oh, have you got a list of questions for me?
0:01:03 > 0:01:05I do. Um...
0:01:06 > 0:01:08- Are you ready?- I'm ready.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Shall we start at the beginning?
0:01:12 > 0:01:14Oh, do you think you can?
0:01:37 > 0:01:41I think the best place to start my mum's story is here,
0:01:41 > 0:01:43in the Lithuanian shtetl of Dusetos.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50This is the street where my grandmother, my Bubbe, lived.
0:01:51 > 0:01:56Bubbe was lucky. She left for London in the '30s before the rest of our
0:01:56 > 0:01:58family ended up in a death pit,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01courtesy of the Nazis and their Lithuanian allies.
0:02:03 > 0:02:08In the East End of London, Bubbe did what migrants do, start a new life,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11with her son Manny and her daughter Lillian, my mum.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18In the '50s, Mum had two children of her own, Michelle and Andrew.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21Growing up, I discovered that, one day,
0:02:21 > 0:02:24they disappeared and she never saw them again.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32The horror of what happened to my mum only really hit home when I was
0:02:32 > 0:02:35living in Australia and had children of my own.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41It then dawned on me that I and so many others were living in
0:02:41 > 0:02:43the shadow of that fateful day.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50The time has come to find out what really happened to my mum
0:02:50 > 0:02:51and her lost children.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58It seems all roads lead to London.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44Ah. Here we are, then,
0:03:44 > 0:03:46better late than never.
0:03:48 > 0:03:50All right. Thanks so much.
0:03:56 > 0:03:57You dressed up for me!
0:04:00 > 0:04:02- Hello.- Hello, doll.
0:04:02 > 0:04:03Oh.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07How are you?
0:04:07 > 0:04:09- Just for a change.- Really?
0:04:09 > 0:04:12- Yes, but all the better for seeing...- This is a nice cuddly outfit.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14Ha-ha. Hello!
0:04:14 > 0:04:16- Hello again.- What's the number?
0:04:16 > 0:04:17Nine...
0:04:20 > 0:04:21Nine...
0:04:23 > 0:04:25- Oh, I don't remember. - Oh, we're trapped outside.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27- Is Dad there?- Yeah.
0:04:27 > 0:04:28Ring him, Dan.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31INTERCOM BEEPS
0:04:31 > 0:04:32And then call.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36- INTERCOM:- Please wait while your call is connected.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38Why does it have, like, a Russian in there?
0:04:38 > 0:04:39I don't know.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41RINGING
0:04:41 > 0:04:44- H!- He's got to answer, Mum.
0:04:44 > 0:04:45Why doesn't he answer the phone?
0:04:47 > 0:04:49We're trapped outside.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52- What?- We're trapped outside.
0:04:52 > 0:04:53No, one more time.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55Yes, yes.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58Oh, H, for God's sake, get up!
0:04:58 > 0:04:59What's the number?
0:05:05 > 0:05:06Finally.
0:05:07 > 0:05:08Oh, God.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Never a dull moment, Daniel.
0:05:12 > 0:05:17I don't know how I've survived, to tell you the truth.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19I really do not know.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21If you would let me go...
0:05:21 > 0:05:23Come in, H, come in, join the club.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27- Welcome, it's a party. - Oh, dear, dear me.
0:05:27 > 0:05:29- Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay. - Did I take all the pills?
0:05:29 > 0:05:31So all those pills are for your memory?
0:05:31 > 0:05:33Memory business, yes.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37- Yeah.- But she's not taking them in regular doses.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40Oh, I am. I take them twice a day, Henry.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42- Very rarely...- So, why do I have to remind you?
0:05:42 > 0:05:46Well, you reminding me makes me take it a bit earlier.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49All right, Mum, let's just focus on the story, please?
0:05:49 > 0:05:51What story are we doing?
0:05:52 > 0:05:54OK.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00I found an old photograph of him.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Come on, you old bugger, wherever you are.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07I know he's here somewhere.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16But I will find it for you.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21Here he is. This is Raymond.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24This is the old bugger when he was young and handsome.
0:06:29 > 0:06:35Raymond came from a wealthy Iranian Jewish family.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38He came to London to study.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40He was 20 years old.
0:06:40 > 0:06:46There was this Christmas party, kiss under the mistletoe.
0:06:46 > 0:06:51I rang him, and I started seeing him quite frequently.
0:06:51 > 0:06:57Can you imagine being 14 or 15, growing up the way I did?
0:06:57 > 0:06:59I didn't have a clue.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05So I was there for the pickings, as you might say.
0:07:10 > 0:07:15I then got a job in a fashion shop in Regent Street.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18He's obviously very taken with me.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22I remember one of the older girls was saying,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25"This kid is having a better time than I am,"
0:07:25 > 0:07:29cos of this dark, handsome guy outside, waiting for me.
0:07:31 > 0:07:36And the next best step is a necking session became
0:07:36 > 0:07:39into the real thing.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41And I did not have a clue, Daniel.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44We were not given sex education then.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47And, unfortunately...
0:07:48 > 0:07:52..on the first time that I was intimate, I became pregnant.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54That was it.
0:07:54 > 0:07:59- How old were you?- I was about 15 and a half, I would think.
0:08:02 > 0:08:08I was still pregnant with Andrew when we went to a registry office
0:08:08 > 0:08:13and we were married. But I was no more ready to be a mother
0:08:13 > 0:08:16than you are ready to go to the moon.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24I didn't feel like a mother.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27I was still a child myself.
0:08:27 > 0:08:32I wasn't very happy, so Raymond said, "We can go to Iran."
0:08:41 > 0:08:46It was like going to another world.
0:08:46 > 0:08:50It was so different.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54And, by this time, I was pregnant with Michelle.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00Again, I wasn't very happy.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02So, we came back to London.
0:09:13 > 0:09:18You look like quite a young, happy family.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20Well, I suppose...
0:09:20 > 0:09:27You have a photo taken and you smile, and so all the crap,
0:09:27 > 0:09:32for the want of a better expression, that doesn't show, Daniel.
0:09:32 > 0:09:37You pose for a photograph, and who knows what's behind that photograph?
0:09:37 > 0:09:39What was behind the photograph?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Poverty, I would say.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57We lived with Bubbe in Ainsworth Road.
0:09:58 > 0:10:04It was such a shame for my mum because she had remarried this older
0:10:04 > 0:10:12gentlemen. Here he was, taking in her daughter with her husband,
0:10:12 > 0:10:14with two children.
0:10:14 > 0:10:18He was a bit acrimonious towards Raymond.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23You know, "If you can't find a job, put some money on the table."
0:10:23 > 0:10:28And, unfortunately, my stepfather asked him to leave.
0:10:28 > 0:10:29But did you want him to go?
0:10:29 > 0:10:34- Raymond to go?- I don't think I really wanted him to go.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45I and the children stayed there.
0:10:45 > 0:10:46We're living with Bubbe.
0:10:48 > 0:10:49I've got to get a drink, do you mind?
0:10:49 > 0:10:52I'll get you a drink. No, stay, stay, stay. I'll get you a drink.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56When you say "we", just again be clear who you're talking about?
0:10:57 > 0:10:59I've got to get a pill at the same time.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07I'm getting all emotional.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09- Are you OK, darling?- Yes.
0:11:12 > 0:11:13SHE CRIES
0:11:16 > 0:11:18It's not a pretty story.
0:11:27 > 0:11:28Thank you.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38I should have a tissue somewhere.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40It's just very emotional, Daniel.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42I know.
0:11:49 > 0:11:50OK.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57Right. Next question.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59OK.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01Right, so, I need to eject this...
0:12:01 > 0:12:02- The drive.- Yes.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11I wouldn't do this for anybody else.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14You know that, don't you?
0:12:14 > 0:12:16Yes. But is it something you want to do?
0:12:16 > 0:12:18Oh, no, I could do without it.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21- So, why are we doing it? - Because you asked me to do it.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23Yeah, but I wouldn't do it if you didn't want to do it.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25I know, but I know you wanted to do it.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29Yeah, but I still wouldn't do it if you didn't want to do it.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31I didn't want to say no to you, Daniel.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33- You could have said no to me. - I could have said,
0:12:33 > 0:12:35but it wouldn't have been right, doll.
0:12:38 > 0:12:43And this is the road that Michelle and Andrew played in.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48I can't believe it, Daniel.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00Oh, look how different it all is.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03Oh, my God.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11I'm living with Bubbe, and the two children...
0:13:13 > 0:13:15..and Raymond comes to visit.
0:13:17 > 0:13:22One particular day, he comes, knocks on the door,
0:13:22 > 0:13:27he's going to take the children to the park, I give him the children,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29and he doesn't come back with them.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32So, Raymond walked up these steps one day?
0:13:33 > 0:13:34Yes. What?
0:13:34 > 0:13:36Came inside? Or the kids were brought outside?
0:13:36 > 0:13:41No, he rang on the bell, I came down the stairs,
0:13:41 > 0:13:42I opened the door for him.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46He said, "I want to take the children to the park."
0:13:46 > 0:13:47And that was it.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04The last time I saw them,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08Andrew was three, Michelle was two.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11And you went to the police?
0:14:11 > 0:14:13I didn't go to the police, no.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15How come you didn't go to the police?
0:14:15 > 0:14:19Because, in those days, Daniel, if you had a problem,
0:14:19 > 0:14:21you went to the Jewish Board of Guardians,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24you didn't go to the police, doll.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31I thought that he'd gone back to Iran with them.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42I remember sitting there and crying so much.
0:14:42 > 0:14:44I've never forgotten it.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47I thought, "I'll never be able to cry again."
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Well, well, well, look who's here!
0:15:03 > 0:15:05Good to see you again.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07- How are you doing?- Good, good.
0:15:07 > 0:15:09- Very well.- Everyone's good.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11- Great.- Everyone's good.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13Come inside, come in.
0:15:18 > 0:15:24Can you talk me through that fateful day when the kids were taken?
0:15:24 > 0:15:27I went to work, they were there.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30I came back from work, they were gone.
0:15:30 > 0:15:31What did the family do?
0:15:32 > 0:15:34Nothing we could do.
0:15:34 > 0:15:35What was there to do?
0:15:36 > 0:15:38Very, very easily said.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41First of all, we didn't know where they were.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43- Yeah.- Um...
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Lillian was in a state.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Um, and I don't remember too much else about it.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51At the end of the day, I think...
0:15:53 > 0:15:57..in view of the overall circumstance in which we were living,
0:15:57 > 0:15:59it became a fait accompli.
0:16:02 > 0:16:03That, what, it was just...?
0:16:03 > 0:16:04That that was it.
0:16:06 > 0:16:07Hm.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11- That was it.- Why did no-one go to the police?
0:16:12 > 0:16:14It wouldn't have occurred to us.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18It was a father taking his children.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21Where's the crime?
0:16:22 > 0:16:23For me...
0:16:24 > 0:16:27..yeah, sure, missed the children.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29It was traumatic,
0:16:29 > 0:16:33and felt it enough to shut it out of my mind.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53I didn't know when I'd see them again.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55I didn't know if I'd see them again.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59You can't make them appear again.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06But, because I was still so young, and very immature,
0:17:06 > 0:17:10I carried on with my life the best way I could.
0:17:10 > 0:17:11I got a job.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14I bought a dress.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18And I went to a dance hall eventually.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20And that's how I met Dad.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32- So, give us a kiss, H.- Don't forget to take the water, take the pills.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35- I've taken the pills. - Take more of the water, though.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38- OK. Bye-bye.- Bye.
0:17:40 > 0:17:45Lillian, I met originally in a disco in Little Newport Street.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47And, at the time, everyone did cha-cha,
0:17:47 > 0:17:50and I remember she was wearing a sailor suit.
0:17:50 > 0:17:52I was physically attracted to her.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58How did you find out about the fact that she was previously married,
0:17:58 > 0:17:59and also had children?
0:17:59 > 0:18:02I think, after the second date, she told me.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05She said, "Look, if you're going out with me, I'd better tell you."
0:18:08 > 0:18:10It often went into my mind,
0:18:10 > 0:18:12what would happen if they suddenly turn up?
0:18:19 > 0:18:22I asked her, "Did you try and find them?"
0:18:22 > 0:18:23She said she had.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27And everyone had dissuaded her, you know, no real point.
0:18:27 > 0:18:33It includes her mother, and included her brother,
0:18:33 > 0:18:36they all more or less told her, "Look, you're wasting your time,
0:18:36 > 0:18:38"get on with your life," sort of thing,
0:18:38 > 0:18:41now that they've met me and we were going to be a couple, and I think,
0:18:41 > 0:18:44particularly once children were on the way.
0:18:46 > 0:18:51And there comes a time when you've got to let sleeping dogs lie, doll.
0:18:51 > 0:18:59I am so grateful for Dad marrying me, for having Ira, for having you,
0:18:59 > 0:19:01and for all the good things.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30One, two, three!
0:19:30 > 0:19:32ALL: Sheva brachot.
0:19:53 > 0:19:58This is our yearly Halloween event, this is, I think, our fourth year
0:19:58 > 0:20:00as Halloween has become more popular.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02So it is a fundraising event for All Dogs Matter,
0:20:02 > 0:20:05which is a charity which I run.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07We do a walk.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10This is pub is, um, Spaniards Inn, it's meant to be haunted.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28I remember Mum telling us she had kids and they had been taken away
0:20:28 > 0:20:30from her, and she didn't know where they were,
0:20:30 > 0:20:32but she always thought about them.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34But we were too young to really understand, I think,
0:20:34 > 0:20:36the full meaning of what had happened.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42But then it kind of just went on as normal life.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45It was never a plan of, "Oh, I've got these children,
0:20:45 > 0:20:47"how are we going to work out finding them?"
0:20:59 > 0:21:03Do you think Mum did enough to find Michelle and Andrew?
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Probably not really, no.
0:21:06 > 0:21:07Well, she didn't really do anything.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09Well, you know, not really.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14We should've come round this way.
0:21:22 > 0:21:23Abby.
0:21:24 > 0:21:26Oh, sorry, Abs.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31- Sorry, Ab.- This sounds like a ridiculous analogy,
0:21:31 > 0:21:35but if someone came along and took Abby...
0:21:35 > 0:21:37Oh!
0:21:38 > 0:21:39Oh!
0:21:39 > 0:21:40I'd have to kill them.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44- So, you'd move heaven and earth to find your dog?- Yeah.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52We grew up in Hampstead Garden Suburb,
0:21:52 > 0:21:55in a nice family home.
0:21:55 > 0:22:00We had a relatively nice life, I guess.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06But I do remember spending quite a bit of time on our own.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Mum wasn't a particularly kind of proactive mum that would pick us up
0:22:09 > 0:22:12from school and take us out here, there and everywhere.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Yeah, I remember even the dog collecting us from school,
0:22:16 > 0:22:17hence my affinity.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20So we were kind of farmed out, quite a bit.
0:22:21 > 0:22:27Have you and Ira always been kind of a bit of a clash of energy?
0:22:27 > 0:22:28It's not a clash.
0:22:28 > 0:22:33I wouldn't call it a clash of energy because I don't have energy to waste
0:22:33 > 0:22:35on clashes.
0:22:35 > 0:22:36But I think it's...
0:22:38 > 0:22:41..a lack of a connection.
0:22:41 > 0:22:47When Ira was born in November, I had to go to work for Christmas.
0:22:47 > 0:22:53So Ira was neglected in her formative years.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58Whatever it is, I thank Hashem that she is married to Philip,
0:22:58 > 0:23:01because I don't think she could be married to anybody else.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Guys, I've just arrived home from Coventry.
0:23:11 > 0:23:12It's my wife's my birthday tomorrow.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16I'm surprising her with Tesco's Finest!
0:23:16 > 0:23:18Follow me.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25# Happy birthday to you
0:23:25 > 0:23:27# Happy birthday... #
0:23:27 > 0:23:28Sorry, is this flat 18?
0:23:28 > 0:23:31You look so much like the woman I married.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33Hello!
0:23:33 > 0:23:35Good evening, baby.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37Look, it's just me and a film crew.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Sit! That's it.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45I was talking to Ira. See, this is what I come home to.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48Obviously it's upsetting for me to leave my other wife.
0:23:48 > 0:23:49I mean, but look...
0:23:49 > 0:23:51This is a lovely thing to come home too.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53Very nice indeed.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57I'm not exactly certain what we should be...
0:23:57 > 0:24:01Is there anything more? Oh, you want to see a normal homecoming?
0:24:01 > 0:24:05Right. So, do you want to go and have intercourse now.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08Come on. Come on, let's go. Let's just get it over with.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10Ira was never farmed out.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14You've got to get this straight, that story is completely wrong.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17Here's the record - a few weeks ago, on a Friday night,
0:24:17 > 0:24:24we sat down and the dynamic between Ira and your mum and your dad began.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29And it was, as usual, it was confrontational,
0:24:29 > 0:24:33it was all irritating and there was a row and more rows,
0:24:33 > 0:24:35- as it normally happens. - It's not a row, it's a discussion.
0:24:35 > 0:24:37- A discussion is not a row. - No, all right, I know.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40A difference of opinion is not a row.
0:24:40 > 0:24:44Ira then left the table and you, Henry and Lillian,
0:24:44 > 0:24:49asked me why Ira is unable to sit down with Lillian and display love
0:24:49 > 0:24:52for her. And what was my response?
0:24:52 > 0:24:55- Cos she was abandoned as a child. - No, that is not what I said.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57I did not say she was abandoned.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01I said to you that in my opinion she was damaged.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04She is a damage... She is damaged.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06And the damage would have occurred...
0:25:06 > 0:25:08I haven't damaged her. Damage...
0:25:08 > 0:25:11In my view, she was damaged in childhood.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13I didn't have a bad childhood and I do remember you leaving home
0:25:13 > 0:25:17and going to the other side of the world and leaving me to deal with it on my own.
0:25:17 > 0:25:18Were you farmed out?
0:25:18 > 0:25:21- No, but after school and stuff... - This expression of "farmed out"...
0:25:21 > 0:25:23But after school and stuff, yes, I didn't...
0:25:23 > 0:25:27There were people that I used to stay with that took me out more so than Mum.
0:25:55 > 0:25:5840 years after the children were taken,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01out of the blue I got a call from Mum, saying Michelle was looking for her.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05I told Mum she better prepare herself.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08She could be a druggie, a pauper, on death row, anything.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11I was way off the mark.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41It's not the first time I've met Michelle, but now she also wants
0:26:41 > 0:26:43to get to the bottom of the story.
0:26:46 > 0:26:51All of this happened a long time ago but there are some missing pieces
0:26:51 > 0:26:56here that it would be nice if we piece them together
0:26:56 > 0:26:59because I think that the truth will set us all free.
0:27:00 > 0:27:05When you were growing up, where did you believe your mother was?
0:27:05 > 0:27:12I was told, by my father, that my mother could not take care of us...
0:27:13 > 0:27:15..and she didn't want us.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19We were told that we were going to be given up for adoption.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24And when this is what you're told as a child,
0:27:24 > 0:27:27you...have no value for yourself.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30If your mother doesn't want you, then...
0:27:31 > 0:27:32..who wants you?
0:27:36 > 0:27:41I didn't have the maturity to ask more questions.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44Maybe I was scared, I'm not sure.
0:27:55 > 0:27:59This is Lillian, this is when she was married to my father.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04Check that out!
0:28:04 > 0:28:06- Wow.- She gave that to me.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10This is probably the one she went to Iran less.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12So she would have been there...
0:28:12 > 0:28:14And then you know what my father says?
0:28:14 > 0:28:19He says that Bubbe would send Lillian pills
0:28:19 > 0:28:21so she could have an abortion.
0:28:23 > 0:28:28Where would Bubbe get pills from to send you, to have an abortion?
0:28:30 > 0:28:32She had no money, she had no English.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37Unless there was a Yiddish black market for abortion pills.
0:28:44 > 0:28:46PHONE RINGS
0:28:52 > 0:28:55- Hi, Mich.- Hi, Andrew. You're on speakerphone.
0:28:55 > 0:29:00I was just thinking about you one second ago, and then you called.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02Yes. Well, Danny is here...
0:29:02 > 0:29:04- Hi, Andrew.- ..with his camera crew.
0:29:04 > 0:29:05OK.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09It's his opportunity to...
0:29:10 > 0:29:13..have a cathartic experience, you know,
0:29:13 > 0:29:18to say what he has to say because he went through hell.
0:29:44 > 0:29:49I was diagnosed about two and a half years ago with leukaemia.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51I am taking this new medication,
0:29:51 > 0:29:53and...I'm OK.
0:30:03 > 0:30:08I sell gourmet chips, kosher potato chips,
0:30:08 > 0:30:10and I enjoy my business.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15Whatever happened in the past, is the past.
0:30:15 > 0:30:17I look ahead.
0:30:17 > 0:30:22I do not disrespect my biological mother because she was young.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25If she had an opportunity to find us, she could have found us.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29She could have gone to the Iranian Embassy in London,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32they could have found us in half an hour.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34Lillian, what did she know?
0:30:34 > 0:30:37She was 17, 18 years old.
0:30:37 > 0:30:38She said...
0:30:38 > 0:30:41She said... I said, "If you thought they were in Iran,
0:30:41 > 0:30:44"you knew where the house was, why didn't you go round?"
0:30:44 > 0:30:46She says, "Firstly, how will I have the money to go to Iran?"
0:30:46 > 0:30:50- Exactly!- "Secondly, how would I...
0:30:51 > 0:30:53"If he's there in Iran with everything,
0:30:53 > 0:30:55"how would I possibly get the children back?"
0:30:55 > 0:30:58- Absolutely true.- She could have easily gone to the police.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00In those days we had international police.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03She could also have filled an application out.
0:31:03 > 0:31:05It was very, very easy.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08I lean towards...she could have and should have done more,
0:31:08 > 0:31:11but I'm not sure about what advice she was being given.
0:31:11 > 0:31:15At the end of the day, it's your dad who took you.
0:31:15 > 0:31:19If somebody said, "Andrew, did your mother leave you for somebody else,
0:31:19 > 0:31:21"she just didn't want you any more?
0:31:21 > 0:31:24"What happened to you?"
0:31:24 > 0:31:26I want to know what you're going to say to them.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28I wouldn't even answer the question.
0:31:28 > 0:31:30I wouldn't answer the question.
0:31:30 > 0:31:35So can I ask you, do you think...
0:31:36 > 0:31:38..Mum didn't want you?
0:31:45 > 0:31:47I can't...
0:31:47 > 0:31:48I can't really answer...
0:31:50 > 0:31:53It's very difficult to answer this question because...
0:31:54 > 0:31:55..I don't know.
0:31:56 > 0:32:00I think, you know, I have a better relationship with Uncle Manny
0:32:00 > 0:32:01than our mother.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04I get along with Uncle Manny better.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Have you ever discussed any of this with Mum?
0:32:08 > 0:32:10No.
0:33:03 > 0:33:04The moment of truth has arrived -
0:33:04 > 0:33:07I'm going to have to talk to Raymond.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11He lives in Iran, so at least we won't come any closer
0:33:11 > 0:33:13than our respective computer screens.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19I have hired an Iranian crew to film the man who started it all.
0:33:24 > 0:33:25- Danny?- Yeah.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27I can see you.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31In England, the children will go to mother.
0:33:33 > 0:33:37But...I took my own children.
0:33:37 > 0:33:39I would not give them to anybody.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45My father was a royal tailor
0:33:45 > 0:33:47to three royalties.
0:33:49 > 0:33:54We have eight children in the family and we went to a good school.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58When you marry, you marry...
0:33:59 > 0:34:00..your level.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03You must marry your level.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08Unfortunately, Lillian was not my level.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14I had not the brain at the time
0:34:14 > 0:34:16to understand this sort of thing.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18I was 21 years old.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22- And I love her.- I don't understand how you could love her and then do
0:34:22 > 0:34:26- what you did to her.- Danny, your mother was not a bad woman.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33The witch, the bitch, was your grandmother!
0:34:35 > 0:34:38I would not comply with her request.
0:34:38 > 0:34:42She wanted me to give my child for adoption.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45I never heard of this in my life.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48Do you really think that after losing all her family she would want
0:34:48 > 0:34:50to give away her grandchildren?
0:34:50 > 0:34:53Yes. She told me many times.
0:34:55 > 0:34:59Now, she went to hell.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04Danny, has your mother grown up?
0:35:06 > 0:35:09I want to know if your mother has grown up.
0:35:09 > 0:35:13She is now a 76-year-old lady.
0:35:13 > 0:35:18He took Michelle and Andrew from her when she was 18.
0:35:18 > 0:35:19What does he think?
0:35:21 > 0:35:24That she's a 16-year-old girl that he got together with?
0:35:26 > 0:35:27It's a ridiculous question.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31I'm sorry, but it's a ridiculous question.
0:35:39 > 0:35:45We had a neighbour and she knew our situation,
0:35:45 > 0:35:48so she said that she knew these people
0:35:48 > 0:35:50that was interested in adopting.
0:35:52 > 0:35:55She asked, we said no.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58It never went further than that.
0:36:10 > 0:36:17I can remember leaving England and going to live in Israel.
0:36:18 > 0:36:23We were living with my grandmother and grandfather.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26He was more a father than my own father was.
0:36:27 > 0:36:31I really believed, and my grandmother would tell me a story
0:36:31 > 0:36:33that she had this many children,
0:36:33 > 0:36:36and the last child was Andrew and myself.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39So I really believed that my grandmother gave birth to us.
0:36:42 > 0:36:46I remember my grandmother holding me and loving me,
0:36:46 > 0:36:48but I was taken away from that too.
0:36:52 > 0:36:57When my grandfather passed away, we were sent back to England.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02You know, nobody said at that time, "Here are two small children.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04"You're the only mother they know."
0:37:04 > 0:37:08They just threw us... Just sent us back to England.
0:37:19 > 0:37:24My father really couldn't take care of two small children and we were
0:37:24 > 0:37:26dropped off in a boarding school.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30I think I must have been about maybe seven, eight.
0:37:33 > 0:37:37I don't remember my father really visiting us.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40I do remember one day specifically standing,
0:37:40 > 0:37:44looking outside and saying to myself, "This is it.
0:37:44 > 0:37:46"You're never going to see him again."
0:37:49 > 0:37:52That boarding school was like a prison to us.
0:37:52 > 0:37:53We were in a cage.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59What am I doing here? Who do I have?
0:38:07 > 0:38:09I had Michelle.
0:38:11 > 0:38:12Too much!
0:38:17 > 0:38:20What's so tragic is that while Mum thought the children were
0:38:20 > 0:38:23out of reach, thousands of miles away in Iran,
0:38:23 > 0:38:25their boarding school was just an hour down the road
0:38:25 > 0:38:27from where she lived.
0:38:37 > 0:38:41And here you're having your birthday party.
0:38:43 > 0:38:44You've got to realise, Daniel,
0:38:44 > 0:38:47I didn't particularly need them back into my life.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50If she's happy as she was, and she's got two children,
0:38:50 > 0:38:53a similar sort of thing, a boy and a girl,
0:38:53 > 0:38:55and everyone was quite happy and there wasn't...
0:38:55 > 0:38:58We were doing very well at the time.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00Certainly didn't need to disturb things and throw things up.
0:39:12 > 0:39:19In 1966, I had the first ladies' boutique in Carnaby Street,
0:39:19 > 0:39:20called Lady Jane,
0:39:20 > 0:39:23and it was very, very successful.
0:39:23 > 0:39:25It was fantastic because it was full of life,
0:39:25 > 0:39:27it was all different colours.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38We had girls changing their clothes in the window,
0:39:38 > 0:39:42it was the biggest publicity stunt ever in this country.
0:39:42 > 0:39:43It was fantastic.
0:39:48 > 0:39:52I was arrested, charged with obstruction of the highway.
0:39:52 > 0:39:53A £2 fine.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01Was there any discussion...
0:40:02 > 0:40:04..in the '60s,
0:40:04 > 0:40:07particularly when you were sort of in this Carnaby Street world,
0:40:07 > 0:40:09- about Michelle and Andrew?- No.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11Not as far as I was concerned, not really.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15Was there ever any thought given to you like, for example,
0:40:15 > 0:40:17hiring a private detective?
0:40:17 > 0:40:20No. It was never discussed as far as I was concerned.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23- You could've done.- We could've done.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25Why do you think something like that didn't happen?
0:40:25 > 0:40:27It wasn't my affair, was it?
0:40:27 > 0:40:30- No.- It wasn't... At least be honest about it, Daniel,
0:40:30 > 0:40:34they are not my children and never will be my children.
0:40:34 > 0:40:36They will be your mother's children.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38She's a person that gives up easily.
0:40:38 > 0:40:41Even if she's got a problem, she will bury her head under the sand.
0:40:41 > 0:40:42I have always said that.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Life is good, right? You got married, the money is coming in,
0:40:56 > 0:40:59buy a nice big house in Hampstead Garden Suburb.
0:40:59 > 0:41:01You have got two kids, again.
0:41:01 > 0:41:03Yes, I was very blessed.
0:41:03 > 0:41:05Hashem was very good to me.
0:41:05 > 0:41:11But, Daniel, the problem was that when I was on my own originally...
0:41:12 > 0:41:15Oh, I am getting a need for a cigarette again.
0:41:15 > 0:41:17Since when do you smoke?!
0:41:17 > 0:41:19Only under pressure, doll.
0:41:19 > 0:41:23It's that or Ativan and if I have too many Ativans,
0:41:23 > 0:41:24I will go off altogether.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26Ativans are antidepressants?
0:41:26 > 0:41:27Yes, yes.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30They've saved my sanity.
0:41:36 > 0:41:41Giving birth to another child, it's only now I understand it,
0:41:41 > 0:41:45it must have triggered off a lot in my subconscious.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49Because after having Ira, I got a depression.
0:41:51 > 0:41:58I don't ever recall anyone saying to me,
0:41:58 > 0:42:04"Lillian, your illness is because of what happened to you."
0:42:04 > 0:42:06Right, so no-one put two and two together.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08When you say, what's... What two and two together?
0:42:08 > 0:42:11Your severe depression
0:42:11 > 0:42:15and the fact that you had your two children stolen from you.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19Well, that's what happened, Dan. I can't say different.
0:42:19 > 0:42:21No, it's not your fault!
0:42:21 > 0:42:23I know it's not my fault.
0:42:23 > 0:42:25But, God, did I pay the price.
0:42:25 > 0:42:26Whew!
0:42:29 > 0:42:33But I was so bad, Daniel, I was taken into hospital.
0:42:34 > 0:42:39I don't remember being suicidal, but I was really...
0:42:42 > 0:42:44..how can I say it? - I was really out of it.
0:42:44 > 0:42:46I was very bad.
0:42:46 > 0:42:52So what was the nadir, what was the lowest point of her ill health?
0:42:52 > 0:42:55I don't know whether you would need this on camera.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57But you might.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59They wanted her to have this
0:42:59 > 0:43:01electric shock treatment.
0:43:01 > 0:43:02- Jeez!- Yes.
0:43:04 > 0:43:06- And I stopped it. - Electric shock treatment?
0:43:06 > 0:43:08Yes.
0:43:08 > 0:43:12- Electric shock treatment?- Yeah. You obviously didn't know.- No.
0:43:12 > 0:43:14They once spoke about it.
0:43:14 > 0:43:16And I said, "No, she's not having that."
0:43:16 > 0:43:19I remember going to that hospital for a long time after school,
0:43:19 > 0:43:22but I've got no idea how long and I cannot remember anything
0:43:22 > 0:43:24from inside the hospital.
0:43:39 > 0:43:40Here we are.
0:43:40 > 0:43:44Because Mr Moss always complains that I never make enough
0:43:44 > 0:43:46of these potatoes.
0:43:46 > 0:43:49So I've put as many as I could into the pan.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06Hello, Lillian! I've returned.
0:44:06 > 0:44:08I'm always pleased to see you.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11- How are you, Lillian?- Not bad.
0:44:11 > 0:44:12Are you still off the booze, Manny?
0:44:12 > 0:44:16- Still off the booze.- I sincerely hope you are on the booze because,
0:44:16 > 0:44:18quite frankly, I prefer you drunk.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Can we have no un-politically correct discussions tonight?
0:44:26 > 0:44:28And maybe we could also have, while we're about it,
0:44:28 > 0:44:31you taking a little bit of a...
0:44:31 > 0:44:34..you know, just a little bit?
0:44:34 > 0:44:35It won't do you any harm, doll.
0:44:37 > 0:44:39- The police came?- Yes.
0:44:39 > 0:44:40Mum has no recollection.
0:44:40 > 0:44:46She used to phone me so often when I was in...
0:44:46 > 0:44:49Where are my little side plates?
0:44:49 > 0:44:53- They're here.- We thought we would make more room on the table, Lillian.
0:44:53 > 0:44:55But Henry wants them.
0:44:55 > 0:44:57We're coming in one second.
0:44:57 > 0:44:59- Don't worry. - She used to phone me up...
0:45:00 > 0:45:02..so many times in the day and say,
0:45:02 > 0:45:05"Pat, I want to...
0:45:06 > 0:45:09"..I want to kill myself."
0:45:09 > 0:45:10Those were her words.
0:45:12 > 0:45:14"I want to kill myself.
0:45:14 > 0:45:18And it was during that time that she did take...
0:45:19 > 0:45:20..an overdose.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34SHE RECITES A PRAYER
0:45:38 > 0:45:41HE RECITES A PRAYER
0:45:48 > 0:45:50Oh, sorry, Henry!
0:45:50 > 0:45:52Please.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56I can't... Do you mind being quiet for a minute?
0:45:56 > 0:45:57Hello?
0:46:08 > 0:46:10Mum doesn't even know that I'm talking to you now,
0:46:10 > 0:46:13it's more for me than for her.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18Mum's life was completely devastated...
0:46:20 > 0:46:21..by what happened...
0:46:22 > 0:46:25..of not having Michelle and Andrew.
0:46:25 > 0:46:26It is her own fault.
0:46:27 > 0:46:29You know why?
0:46:29 > 0:46:32- Why?- She was devastated because she couldn't see them.
0:46:33 > 0:46:34Anybody stopped her?
0:46:36 > 0:46:40Anybody stopped Lillian to go and see Andrew and Michelle?
0:46:40 > 0:46:41Did I stop her?
0:46:42 > 0:46:45Didn't she know where they lived?
0:46:45 > 0:46:48- She knew.- But she didn't know when they were in boarding school.
0:46:48 > 0:46:51If she didn't know their address,
0:46:51 > 0:46:56how could she send me a letter to go and give her a divorce?
0:46:56 > 0:46:57She knew.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59They weren't really in Iran,
0:46:59 > 0:47:01they were in boarding school in England.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03But I didn't know!
0:47:03 > 0:47:06That bastard never let me know.
0:47:06 > 0:47:07He never said...
0:47:07 > 0:47:09I didn't know they were in England.
0:47:09 > 0:47:11I... How would I know?
0:47:12 > 0:47:15And then how long was the period of time between taking the kids and the
0:47:15 > 0:47:19- divorce?- Till they found him, till they got it organised,
0:47:19 > 0:47:24till it happened, I would say two and a half years.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28Jewish Board of Guardians got him there...
0:47:28 > 0:47:32It was done and I never saw him again.
0:47:32 > 0:47:34I must be honest with you,
0:47:34 > 0:47:38I don't remember asking him about the children.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Maybe I did, maybe I didn't,
0:47:41 > 0:47:44but I cannot put my hand on the good book
0:47:44 > 0:47:47cos I really don't remember, Daniel.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51Do you think that might have been an opportunity lost?
0:47:53 > 0:47:54Possibly, yes.
0:48:02 > 0:48:06I felt almost like an orphan until Amanda came into our lives.
0:48:20 > 0:48:23I was 22 when I met Raymond in London.
0:48:25 > 0:48:26Magic.
0:48:26 > 0:48:31He was very good-looking, I absolutely fell for him
0:48:31 > 0:48:33hook, line and sinker.
0:48:33 > 0:48:35He was ten years my senior.
0:48:39 > 0:48:43We went to meet Andrew and Michelle when they were in school.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46I could see, you know, how he cared about them.
0:48:46 > 0:48:48They were very happy to see him
0:48:48 > 0:48:51and I could see that there was love there.
0:48:51 > 0:48:55Immediately, Andrew ran and took hold of his father's hand.
0:48:59 > 0:49:05He took me out one evening and he said, "Will you be my wife?"
0:49:05 > 0:49:08And I said, "On one condition -
0:49:08 > 0:49:11"that I can be a mother to Andrew and Michelle."
0:49:12 > 0:49:13And he said, "Of course."
0:49:17 > 0:49:23I went with Raymond to Iran when I was three months pregnant
0:49:23 > 0:49:25and Andrew and Michelle were in boarding school.
0:49:26 > 0:49:31They were not very happy and they wrote many letters to us
0:49:31 > 0:49:32which I still have.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36But I have to look for them,
0:49:36 > 0:49:40I'm not exactly sure where they are because I'm a hoarder.
0:49:42 > 0:49:44Here we go. Here we go.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46Here are the letters.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48- Cool.- 1964.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53"Dear Mummy and Daddy, I hope you're well and happy.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57"We're both very well at school and missing you very much.
0:49:57 > 0:50:02"Are we going to Tehran on the 23rd of July when school ends?"
0:50:04 > 0:50:07You can feel the stress.
0:50:07 > 0:50:10"Please write soon and tell us when we are going home."
0:50:12 > 0:50:14I couldn't take it.
0:50:14 > 0:50:16Why shouldn't they be with us?
0:50:17 > 0:50:20I'd discussed this with Raymond, so Raymond,
0:50:20 > 0:50:24he signed up the children to go to school in Tehran.
0:50:30 > 0:50:34- ANDREW:- I think Amanda treated us like her own kids.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37She was like a mother and a father to me.
0:50:39 > 0:50:43- MICHELLE:- Amanda loved me and cared about me.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46When I told her of a pain, she addressed it.
0:50:48 > 0:50:51# Soldier, soldier, won't you marry me
0:50:51 > 0:50:54# With your musket, fife and drum
0:50:54 > 0:50:56# Oh, no, sweet maid... #
0:50:56 > 0:51:00Before I came into Andrew and Michelle's lives,
0:51:00 > 0:51:02I'm quite sure nobody sang nursery rhymes to them.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07Michelle used to dream sometimes that I would leave her.
0:51:09 > 0:51:11See, that was something that really frightened her.
0:51:13 > 0:51:19And I used to say to her, "Even if Papa and I don't stay together,
0:51:19 > 0:51:20"you will always be with me.
0:51:20 > 0:51:22"Don't worry, I'll never leave you, never."
0:51:34 > 0:51:36I wasn't free.
0:51:36 > 0:51:38Everything was done through Raymond -
0:51:38 > 0:51:42if I could visit this one or couldn't, or if I could go shopping.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46Michelle, she would see things and she'd point them out to me and she
0:51:46 > 0:51:48said, "Mum, you know, why do you take it?
0:51:48 > 0:51:50"Why don't you say anything?"
0:51:53 > 0:51:59Raymond never told me that he had a mistress by the name of Rosetta.
0:51:59 > 0:52:03Raymond never told me that he had two children.
0:52:03 > 0:52:05They were living in Israel at that time.
0:52:05 > 0:52:07PHONE RINGS
0:52:07 > 0:52:09- Eli?- Yes.
0:52:09 > 0:52:14I've got here Michelle and Andrew's half-brother who's come to Israel
0:52:14 > 0:52:19and he'd like to talk to you, is that all right?
0:52:19 > 0:52:21- Yes, why not?- Good, OK.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23So, I'll let you talk.
0:52:23 > 0:52:25You forgot to mention the documentary part!
0:52:25 > 0:52:29- No, no, I didn't, I left it up to you.- No, I know. - On purpose, on purpose.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31- Eli.- Yes.
0:52:31 > 0:52:33Hi, my name is Danny.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36As I've been delving more and more into the story,
0:52:36 > 0:52:40trying to work out how could such a thing happen to my mum and my
0:52:40 > 0:52:46half-siblings, the name of your mum has come up on several occasions.
0:52:46 > 0:52:50Eli! If you were interested and if you were available,
0:52:50 > 0:52:53I'd love to come and have a chat with you on camera.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55Wow. It's amazing.
0:52:58 > 0:53:00Your mother was Rosetta.
0:53:00 > 0:53:01- Right.- Your father was Raymond.
0:53:01 > 0:53:07- Correct.- Do you know if your mum knew about Raymond taking...?
0:53:07 > 0:53:10- Yes. I know the whole story. - And you heard it from who?
0:53:10 > 0:53:11From my mother.
0:53:11 > 0:53:15- OK.- And most people that...
0:53:15 > 0:53:16You know my aunts and...
0:53:16 > 0:53:18They told me that your mother...
0:53:19 > 0:53:22..got up one day and she left.
0:53:22 > 0:53:24- For no reason.- My mum left?
0:53:24 > 0:53:26- Yeah.- Left where?
0:53:26 > 0:53:28She ran away.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30- That's what your mum said? - Yeah.- About my mum?
0:53:30 > 0:53:33- Yeah.- You're kidding me?- No.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36She got up one day and she just left.
0:53:36 > 0:53:39And she left the two kids by Raymond.
0:53:42 > 0:53:46What happens is...they were divorced or formally separated.
0:53:46 > 0:53:49One day he came, he took Michelle and Andrew to the park
0:53:49 > 0:53:51and he never came back.
0:53:52 > 0:53:56And that was the last time my mother saw her children for 40 years.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06HE CHOKES UP
0:54:08 > 0:54:09If I tell you a story...
0:54:11 > 0:54:12..you won't believe it.
0:54:14 > 0:54:15You won't believe it.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21I never knew my father until I was...
0:54:23 > 0:54:24..I believe...
0:54:25 > 0:54:28..seven, maybe six.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32He took us, he bought us a ticket.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34Took me and Ora, who lived in Israel,
0:54:34 > 0:54:36and he asked us to come and visit him in Iran.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39We went to Iran for the summer...
0:54:41 > 0:54:44..and he did the same thing a different way
0:54:44 > 0:54:46that he didn't want us to come back to Israel.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50He had our passports and everything and he said,
0:54:50 > 0:54:53"By Persian law they're Persian
0:54:53 > 0:54:55"and I cannot let you take the kids back."
0:54:57 > 0:55:00You know, Daniel...
0:55:01 > 0:55:06..the memories that I had in Iran, it wasn't very pleasant.
0:55:06 > 0:55:08He took...he took a stick...
0:55:10 > 0:55:11..and he tied me to the tree.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13Oh, my God. What?!
0:55:15 > 0:55:16He tied you to a tree?!
0:55:16 > 0:55:18He tied me to a tree in Damavand...
0:55:22 > 0:55:24..because I was making pee-pee in the bed.
0:55:26 > 0:55:28Yes, he's right, I gave him a good hiding. I nearly killed him.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34At the age of 13, 14, he used to piss in bed.
0:55:34 > 0:55:36PHONE BEEPS
0:55:38 > 0:55:40Why did Rosetta come...
0:55:41 > 0:55:42..to Tehran...
0:55:43 > 0:55:47..by surprise, why did she do that?
0:55:47 > 0:55:50Because I wanted to keep them in Iran.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53I wanted to keep Eli and Ora in Iran.
0:55:54 > 0:55:57Because I knew that she couldn't look after them.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00I... When they were in Iran, I took them to school,
0:56:00 > 0:56:05I put them in a school, I look after them, I got teacher for them.
0:56:05 > 0:56:06But she was stupid.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08"What about me?"
0:56:09 > 0:56:11"Go to hell!
0:56:11 > 0:56:14"These are children, they have future in front of them.
0:56:14 > 0:56:16"I have to think about them, not about you."
0:56:18 > 0:56:21Were you...? Were you married to Rosetta or you just had the children
0:56:21 > 0:56:24- with her?- I never marry everybody I sleep with.
0:56:30 > 0:56:32HE CHUCKLES
0:56:33 > 0:56:39One night, all of a sudden there was this tremendous bashing at the door,
0:56:39 > 0:56:41downstairs - boom, boom!
0:56:41 > 0:56:45The front door. Rosetta came running up the stairs.
0:56:45 > 0:56:48She went over to a tray and she took
0:56:48 > 0:56:51the very, very sharp butcher's knife.
0:56:51 > 0:56:58She pulled her children to her, held the knife in front of her and said,
0:56:58 > 0:57:01"Nobody's going to take my children away from me."
0:57:03 > 0:57:05Amanda came up and said, "No, don't kill him, don't kill him!"
0:57:07 > 0:57:09My mother would go - pfft - slit his throat.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15- It's how tough she is.- Rosetta was there and had a knife -
0:57:15 > 0:57:20"I want my kids back." So I can remember that she fought and then he
0:57:20 > 0:57:23made this scene, you know, "These are my kids." She said,
0:57:23 > 0:57:25"No, I'm going to take my kids back."
0:57:25 > 0:57:28And she took her kids back, she took Eli and Ora back.
0:57:28 > 0:57:30So she fought and she got them back.
0:57:33 > 0:57:37I know Andrew was very upset that Lillian didn't come to look for him,
0:57:37 > 0:57:40he resented it for a long time. He told me that.
0:58:02 > 0:58:05I went to an American school when I was in Iran.
0:58:05 > 0:58:09This school prepared you to go to college in America and I had gotten
0:58:09 > 0:58:15a scholarship and I had told my father that I had a scholarship
0:58:15 > 0:58:19and that I needed to answer them at a certain amount of time.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25Michelle said to her father, "Papa, when are you going to give me
0:58:25 > 0:58:28"the registration fee for the university?"
0:58:28 > 0:58:30And her father said,
0:58:30 > 0:58:34"Can you tell me, if I send you to America
0:58:34 > 0:58:36"if you will behave properly?"
0:58:37 > 0:58:41And Michelle said to him, "Papa, you brought me up.
0:58:41 > 0:58:43"Don't you trust in your upbringing?"
0:58:44 > 0:58:46He just turned around
0:58:46 > 0:58:51and he slapped her across the face as hard as he could.
0:58:51 > 0:58:54She had this red mark on her face and he broke his hand, actually.
0:58:57 > 0:59:02- MICHELLE:- At that time I realised that I couldn't live in his home.
0:59:02 > 0:59:04I just knew that I had to run away.
0:59:06 > 0:59:09I was 17 years old.
0:59:15 > 0:59:22I travelled from Afghanistan into Pakistan,
0:59:22 > 0:59:27and from Pakistan into India, and from India I flew to London.
0:59:27 > 0:59:30Then from England, I flew to America.
0:59:32 > 0:59:36I had no idea where she was. I was beside myself.
0:59:36 > 0:59:38She didn't leave me a note or anything.
0:59:38 > 0:59:39It's kind of ironic, isn't it?
0:59:39 > 0:59:45Because Michelle was taken from her mother and then she leaves the woman
0:59:45 > 0:59:47who's become her mother.
0:59:47 > 0:59:48No, she wasn't leaving me.
0:59:50 > 0:59:52She was leaving a situation.
0:59:53 > 0:59:56It was very painful for me to leave her.
0:59:56 > 0:59:59I loved her so much.
0:59:59 > 1:00:01I remember when I...
1:00:02 > 1:00:06..got her first letter when I ran away
1:00:06 > 1:00:09and I don't think I've ever cried like that.
1:00:18 > 1:00:22- ANDREW:- When revolution started, Mandy left Iran, came to Israel.
1:00:25 > 1:00:30I always want to run away, but I wasn't able to leave Iran,
1:00:30 > 1:00:34but when Khomeini came I was able to save enough money...
1:00:35 > 1:00:36..to come to the States.
1:00:39 > 1:00:44We were sitting on the couch in the living room, watching the news.
1:00:44 > 1:00:47The Ayatollah coming into Iran with the revolution.
1:00:47 > 1:00:50- Yes.- And you know, everyone in black and he was being carried -
1:00:50 > 1:00:53I even remember that image - and it was like that old-style television -
1:00:53 > 1:00:55big, thick wood...
1:00:55 > 1:00:57And, um...
1:00:57 > 1:01:01And I remember my dad turning to my mum and saying,
1:01:01 > 1:01:04"There's no chance you'll see Michelle and Andrew again now."
1:01:04 > 1:01:06- Wow.- OK, when I was, like,
1:01:06 > 1:01:0910 or 11 years old and the Iranian revolution is going on, you go,
1:01:09 > 1:01:11- "Oh, right. I'm never going to see them again."- That's it.
1:01:11 > 1:01:16But then, when you hit 20 or 30,
1:01:16 > 1:01:18I actually never did anything to try and find them.
1:01:43 > 1:01:44- MICHELLE:- I was depressed...
1:01:45 > 1:01:48..probably my whole life, but you don't know it.
1:01:50 > 1:01:53It's only when you're not depressed any more that you look back and say,
1:01:53 > 1:01:55"You know what? I wasn't so happy."
1:02:01 > 1:02:05And when I had my son, Nisan,
1:02:05 > 1:02:10I always feel that a monster came alive in me.
1:02:10 > 1:02:15Something moved me inside, everything woke up.
1:02:15 > 1:02:18All the sadness and pain...
1:02:19 > 1:02:22..just came out,
1:02:22 > 1:02:28but I would say that this all came up when my son was becoming
1:02:28 > 1:02:31bar mitzvahed, it was a very painful time for me.
1:02:31 > 1:02:34I remember crying and...
1:02:36 > 1:02:40..wondering, "Where is she?"
1:02:40 > 1:02:45And how come, as much as I loved my stepmother Amanda and adored her...
1:02:46 > 1:02:50..it really came about - "Where is she?"
1:02:50 > 1:02:52And she could be here and she could...
1:02:54 > 1:02:55..be in this joyous, very...
1:02:55 > 1:02:57My first joyous occasion.
1:03:01 > 1:03:04I wrote a letter to the Salvation Army,
1:03:04 > 1:03:08just saying that I had been searching for my birth mother, Lillian.
1:03:11 > 1:03:17I had no fear that Lillian would not want to connect with me,
1:03:17 > 1:03:21but I remember holding back
1:03:21 > 1:03:23and knowing that anything could be possible.
1:03:30 > 1:03:33Lillian and Henry lived across the road.
1:03:33 > 1:03:35We were very friendly.
1:03:35 > 1:03:40Sadly, they lost the house and after that either my husband or myself
1:03:40 > 1:03:44used to pick up the post regularly and keep it here till they were
1:03:44 > 1:03:46ready to pick it up.
1:03:46 > 1:03:49And there was this large pile of post,
1:03:49 > 1:03:51and while I was making the tea in the kitchen,
1:03:51 > 1:03:54Lillian was going through the post,
1:03:54 > 1:03:58and I suddenly heard the most awful sound...
1:03:58 > 1:03:59"Betty!"
1:03:59 > 1:04:01The way she said it, I thought,
1:04:01 > 1:04:03"God knows what's happening."
1:04:03 > 1:04:08And I came in the room and she was absolutely
1:04:08 > 1:04:11white as a sheet and trembling.
1:04:11 > 1:04:14And her hand was shaking and she held the letter out to me.
1:04:17 > 1:04:21It was unbelievable, we just couldn't speak.
1:04:21 > 1:04:23You know, we just sat there.
1:04:23 > 1:04:26My immediate instinct was to get in touch immediately with the
1:04:26 > 1:04:30Salvation Army, Lillian's was not.
1:04:30 > 1:04:35She said, no, she's got to think about it and speak to Henry.
1:04:37 > 1:04:40She said, "I've got a letter, I've got to show it to you."
1:04:40 > 1:04:41And what was your response?
1:04:41 > 1:04:44"Well, it's happened, so good for you.
1:04:45 > 1:04:47"Let them come or you go there, wherever it is."
1:04:50 > 1:04:51KNOCK AT DOOR
1:04:53 > 1:04:58Bubbe said to me, "One day there will be a knock at the door.
1:04:58 > 1:04:59"You will answer the door,
1:04:59 > 1:05:05"Michelle and Andrew will come and find Lillian and Uncle Manny."
1:05:05 > 1:05:07They did come in the form of a letter.
1:05:07 > 1:05:11I haven't discussed this yet with Manny, it has come up in conversation...
1:05:11 > 1:05:13I'm wary to say anything about that.
1:05:15 > 1:05:16Talk to Manny first.
1:05:16 > 1:05:18- OK.- OK?
1:05:18 > 1:05:19- OK.- Because...
1:05:21 > 1:05:25..I didn't know that I wasn't the only one to get the letter
1:05:25 > 1:05:26for a long, long time.
1:05:29 > 1:05:36It might have been mentioned that Manny got a letter as well,
1:05:36 > 1:05:40but very pie in the sky, nothing concrete.
1:05:43 > 1:05:46They could have found Lillian a year or two earlier.
1:05:46 > 1:05:48I think they had corresponded before,
1:05:48 > 1:05:52but Manny made ash and pash of the letter and he didn't want it shown.
1:05:52 > 1:05:55There are things that are difficult and dark.
1:05:55 > 1:05:57- Exactly.- How do I go to my uncle...
1:05:57 > 1:06:00- Exactly.- ..and say, "Hold on.
1:06:01 > 1:06:06"My half-sister was looking for my mum and you kind of sent her away?"
1:06:06 > 1:06:08That's pretty awkward.
1:06:10 > 1:06:11Well, I mean...
1:06:13 > 1:06:15Erm...
1:06:15 > 1:06:17Were you...?
1:06:17 > 1:06:20I'm just trying to think - where to begin, where to begin,
1:06:20 > 1:06:22where to begin...? Um...
1:06:22 > 1:06:25When Mum got the Salvation Army letter, what was it like?
1:06:25 > 1:06:28- Manny got a letter at the same time. - I got a letter as well, you see.
1:06:28 > 1:06:32- There were two letters. - I had a letter as well
1:06:32 > 1:06:37and I hung onto my letter for a while because I thought,
1:06:37 > 1:06:39Lillian being in the state she's in,
1:06:39 > 1:06:42if I suddenly produce this letter,
1:06:42 > 1:06:44what's it going to do to her?
1:06:46 > 1:06:49And that's why I sat on it. I make no bones about it.
1:06:50 > 1:06:55Um, could this have been the last straw?
1:06:55 > 1:06:56Huh!
1:06:58 > 1:07:01Do you know, I can remember, you put it back in the envelope.
1:07:01 > 1:07:04What was the period of time between you getting the letter and then
1:07:04 > 1:07:06finding out that Mum had got a letter?
1:07:07 > 1:07:11Oh, it could have been up to a year.
1:07:11 > 1:07:14- Oh, really?- It could have been, it could have been.
1:07:14 > 1:07:17It was certainly months rather than weeks.
1:07:17 > 1:07:18Right.
1:07:20 > 1:07:23And so you didn't think at...
1:07:25 > 1:07:27You were just going to...? You weren't going to...?
1:07:27 > 1:07:29I'd put it to one side.
1:07:29 > 1:07:31What I would have subsequently done, I don't know.
1:07:33 > 1:07:36Fortunately, Betty dealt with the letter,
1:07:36 > 1:07:40opened that up, and then from that moment on,
1:07:40 > 1:07:45I don't think I've even let on until now that we also had a letter.
1:07:49 > 1:07:53Well, that must have been quite a lot of pressure, sitting on that letter.
1:07:54 > 1:07:55It gave...
1:07:57 > 1:07:59..you a lot to think about.
1:07:59 > 1:08:00A lot to think about.
1:08:12 > 1:08:16When I heard that Lillian had been found,
1:08:16 > 1:08:18I really thought it was a miracle.
1:08:20 > 1:08:24I was so excited and so happy and, of course,
1:08:24 > 1:08:26we couldn't connect right away,
1:08:26 > 1:08:30we had to write a letter and get permission.
1:08:30 > 1:08:33Then we just started writing all the time and calling,
1:08:33 > 1:08:35and after a very short time,
1:08:35 > 1:08:39I told Lillian that I would like to come and visit her in London.
1:08:39 > 1:08:42- Hello?- Hi, Lillian.
1:08:42 > 1:08:43I wanted her to come...
1:08:45 > 1:08:50..and I wanted to see her, but I had no idea what she would be like.
1:08:50 > 1:08:53I mean, she could have been one of these bitter,
1:08:53 > 1:08:56screwed-up girls that wanted to come and give me...
1:08:56 > 1:08:58..if you know what I mean.
1:08:58 > 1:09:00And I say to Ira...
1:09:01 > 1:09:04"Ira, you've got to go and meet her at the airport
1:09:04 > 1:09:06"cos I can't handle that."
1:09:08 > 1:09:12I went to Heathrow to pick her up without knowing who she was or what
1:09:12 > 1:09:15she looked like, and as soon as she came through arrivals, I knew
1:09:15 > 1:09:19immediately she was my half-sister because there was a resemblance.
1:09:19 > 1:09:23When Ira picked me up, I was in a daze, not because of jet lag
1:09:23 > 1:09:26or anything, but just because it felt so surreal
1:09:26 > 1:09:29that Lillian's daughter was picking me up.
1:09:29 > 1:09:32It wasn't tears or anything for me, cos I had no emotional bond.
1:09:32 > 1:09:35I knew she was my sister, but I didn't know...
1:09:35 > 1:09:37I've never met this person before.
1:09:52 > 1:09:59She brings Michelle here, we embrace, we both cry, as women do...
1:10:01 > 1:10:04..and we just clicked immediately.
1:10:04 > 1:10:08There was no, "Why, who, where?"
1:10:15 > 1:10:19And then I just saw Lillian standing there in her apron
1:10:19 > 1:10:21and just holding me
1:10:21 > 1:10:24and nothing else mattered after that.
1:10:26 > 1:10:32Suddenly, this beautiful, charming young woman was my little girl.
1:10:37 > 1:10:40After Michelle came to London,
1:10:40 > 1:10:44I then went to visit Andrew in America.
1:10:47 > 1:10:52When Raymond took Michelle away, she was 18 months.
1:10:52 > 1:10:55I had Andrew for a much longer time.
1:10:56 > 1:11:01I don't know that the loss of him was more painful,
1:11:01 > 1:11:06but he had such an unfortunate time.
1:11:06 > 1:11:08What, and you think Michelle had less of an unfortunate time?
1:11:08 > 1:11:10I think so.
1:11:10 > 1:11:13Because when Raymond met another woman...
1:11:15 > 1:11:21..and took Andrew away - this was Rosa, he married her, I think...
1:11:22 > 1:11:28She said that Andrew would get up in the night and sort of be
1:11:28 > 1:11:29looking for me.
1:11:35 > 1:11:38Have you ever told Andrew your side of the story before?
1:11:38 > 1:11:39I don't think so.
1:11:39 > 1:11:43- Really?- Uh-huh. - So what have you discussed with him?
1:11:43 > 1:11:45To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure.
1:11:45 > 1:11:48- You never had that conversation with Andrew?- No.
1:11:50 > 1:11:53You've had lots of these conversations with Michelle.
1:11:53 > 1:11:56- Yes.- So surely you've got to have at least one with Andrew?
1:11:56 > 1:11:59Yes. That's what I've got to do.
1:11:59 > 1:12:00Oh, God.
1:12:09 > 1:12:11- Hello!- Hello, Lillian!
1:12:13 > 1:12:17No-one in our family was going to miss out on Mum's big trip to LA.
1:12:18 > 1:12:19You look good, David.
1:12:19 > 1:12:22Thank you. Thank you, so do you, you look beautiful.
1:12:22 > 1:12:24As always. As always.
1:12:24 > 1:12:26These Persian men always go for me in a big way!
1:12:26 > 1:12:28LAUGHTER
1:12:28 > 1:12:31This is the Beverly Hills Soup Kitchen we're in right now.
1:12:32 > 1:12:35That people over there, they're my family.
1:12:35 > 1:12:36I married into them.
1:12:38 > 1:12:40WHISPERS: They're mad.
1:12:40 > 1:12:43It's so good to see you, Michelle.
1:12:43 > 1:12:45It's so good to see you.
1:12:54 > 1:12:57I doubt if you'll be able to do it here, Mich.
1:12:59 > 1:13:01Mm! You did it. Well done. I'll puff.
1:13:04 > 1:13:07Michelle, what do you think of my shoes?
1:13:07 > 1:13:11- They're nice. - Aren't they the business?
1:13:11 > 1:13:14I bought these for our party.
1:13:14 > 1:13:17- I went shopping... - And are you comfortable in them?
1:13:17 > 1:13:19Oh, yes!
1:13:20 > 1:13:22Do you know, I love palm trees.
1:13:22 > 1:13:23They're very, very thin.
1:13:23 > 1:13:26From a distance, it would look like the wind would break it.
1:13:26 > 1:13:28- Yeah.- But, um...
1:13:29 > 1:13:32Are they the ones that grow the dates?
1:13:32 > 1:13:33Yes.
1:13:52 > 1:13:56Do you know how painful it is when your child is no longer there
1:13:56 > 1:13:59- and you have their toys? - How do you know that?
1:13:59 > 1:14:01Because I look at my grandson's toys and...
1:14:02 > 1:14:04..I've given them away.
1:14:07 > 1:14:11The same thing that happened to my grandmother has happened to me.
1:14:11 > 1:14:16After my son's separation from his partner,
1:14:16 > 1:14:19she and my grandson,
1:14:19 > 1:14:20they moved to Europe.
1:14:21 > 1:14:24- So your son has no idea where his son is?- Nothing. Nothing.
1:14:26 > 1:14:29Listen, I'm his grandmother and I am...
1:14:30 > 1:14:31..thinking about him...
1:14:31 > 1:14:34'My baby.' ..all the time.
1:14:34 > 1:14:36That's why I moved Bubbe's picture up,
1:14:36 > 1:14:41because I don't want my story to be the same as...
1:14:41 > 1:14:42- Oh, yeah?- Yeah, I don't want...
1:14:42 > 1:14:45I put it away, I said, "This is not going to happen."
1:14:46 > 1:14:49There's Miranda, Andrew's daughter.
1:14:49 > 1:14:51That's his daughter from his first marriage?
1:14:51 > 1:14:53- Yeah.- Where's she now?
1:14:53 > 1:14:55Who knows? She came,
1:14:55 > 1:14:59we had such a good time and then she just disappeared.
1:14:59 > 1:15:00So, what, he got divorced?
1:15:00 > 1:15:03Yes. He came home and they were gone.
1:15:05 > 1:15:07You didn't know? Yeah.
1:15:07 > 1:15:08One day, Andrew comes home and he says...
1:15:08 > 1:15:13He sees that everything is packed and gone, money's gone.
1:15:13 > 1:15:16- And she's left.- His wife and daughter, just gone?
1:15:16 > 1:15:19Yes. The child was just a baby.
1:15:26 > 1:15:30- ANSWERING MACHINE:- At the tone, please record your message.
1:15:30 > 1:15:31Hey, Andrew, it's Danny.
1:15:31 > 1:15:34We're on our way, we'll be at you more like 11.30,
1:15:34 > 1:15:36but could you just text me, please, your address?
1:15:36 > 1:15:38Thanks very much. Cheers, bye.
1:15:40 > 1:15:43So, I think it's important today if you could tell him your...
1:15:45 > 1:15:48- ..your story about your perspective. - And what would be even better
1:15:48 > 1:15:50is if I had remembered to bring my Ativan with me.
1:15:59 > 1:16:01There's Andrew's truck.
1:16:01 > 1:16:03What, Kettle Chips?
1:16:03 > 1:16:04Yeah, look, "Distributed by..."
1:16:13 > 1:16:16Why I put tights on, I don't know.
1:16:16 > 1:16:19I can't tell you.
1:16:19 > 1:16:21Hello, hello!
1:16:21 > 1:16:24Hello, Andrew, hello!
1:16:24 > 1:16:25So, it's only me and you today.
1:16:27 > 1:16:30- Nobody else here.- Where is Diane?
1:16:30 > 1:16:32Hospital and the doctor's.
1:16:32 > 1:16:34And David's at school.
1:16:34 > 1:16:36- Oh.- So, how are you?
1:16:36 > 1:16:38I'm all right. Are you?
1:16:38 > 1:16:40I'm good. Just go and sit down, I'm going to put the...
1:16:40 > 1:16:42..the light.
1:16:42 > 1:16:44Isn't that lovely?
1:16:45 > 1:16:46It brings you back memories?
1:16:48 > 1:16:50- Yeah?- Yes, it does, Andrew.
1:16:50 > 1:16:52Yes, it does.
1:16:52 > 1:16:53But...
1:16:55 > 1:16:59What can you do? There's nothing clever to say, Andrew.
1:16:59 > 1:17:02Because you had each other, you were not alone.
1:17:02 > 1:17:08- No.- If you had been an only child, it would have been worse.
1:17:08 > 1:17:10At least you had each other.
1:17:10 > 1:17:13So, Andrew, in this family saga,
1:17:13 > 1:17:15I've found out from Michelle that you've lost contact
1:17:15 > 1:17:17with your own daughter.
1:17:17 > 1:17:19I wasn't close to Miranda.
1:17:19 > 1:17:21How old is she now?
1:17:21 > 1:17:23She must be 30.
1:17:23 > 1:17:24So are you not in contact?
1:17:24 > 1:17:26No, I don't have contact.
1:17:26 > 1:17:28I would say, the door is open.
1:17:28 > 1:17:30You know, I haven't moved all these years.
1:17:30 > 1:17:34My telephone number is the same number after all these years.
1:17:34 > 1:17:37So if she ever wants to get in touch, you know, it's easy to find me.
1:17:37 > 1:17:39- The door is open. - Yeah, the door is open.
1:17:40 > 1:17:43- I'm dying for a cup of tea, Andrew. - OK.
1:17:57 > 1:17:59You've never really told Andrew...
1:18:00 > 1:18:03..your experience of what happened on that day.
1:18:03 > 1:18:07So I don't know if you're interested, Andrew, but I thought...
1:18:07 > 1:18:10If you want, it's no big deal, Andrew.
1:18:10 > 1:18:14It's just I was living with my mother, it wasn't easy...
1:18:15 > 1:18:21..and your father came and we lived near a very nice park,
1:18:21 > 1:18:25and your father came and he said to me he wanted to take the children to
1:18:25 > 1:18:31the park. And I never thought anything, and I said, "Fine."
1:18:31 > 1:18:33And he never brought you back.
1:18:33 > 1:18:35I think this is something that...
1:18:39 > 1:18:42..the way that my father thinks,
1:18:42 > 1:18:44this is something that I think it is possible.
1:18:46 > 1:18:49This film is going to get me into trouble, but I don't care.
1:18:49 > 1:18:50Somebody has to tell the truth.
1:18:50 > 1:18:54Everybody's kissing up to my father's rear end because they think...
1:18:54 > 1:18:58Here's what I think. They think when he sells his property in Iran or
1:18:58 > 1:19:01something that he has left, that they get a share of it.
1:19:02 > 1:19:03I don't care about my share.
1:19:05 > 1:19:08If he wants to give it, give it, he's never given it when I needed it.
1:19:09 > 1:19:13Has anyone said to you that you shouldn't do the film?
1:19:13 > 1:19:15If they said, I don't... Bullshit!
1:19:15 > 1:19:18You know, Danny, when I got the cancer...
1:19:18 > 1:19:19- Yeah.- When I got the cancer...- Yeah.
1:19:20 > 1:19:24..nobody fucking in my family helped me. Nobody!
1:19:28 > 1:19:30SHE TUTS
1:19:32 > 1:19:33Isn't it terrible?
1:19:41 > 1:19:43DANNY SIGHS
1:19:44 > 1:19:45I just need to relax a bit.
1:19:49 > 1:19:52When I first got diagnosed with this cancer...
1:19:55 > 1:19:57..I couldn't get insurance.
1:19:57 > 1:20:02Nobody helped me one penny, not one penny, till, thank God,
1:20:02 > 1:20:04Obama came and changed the insurance thing,
1:20:04 > 1:20:07the insurance for pre-existing conditions,
1:20:07 > 1:20:09that I was able to get out of that hospital.
1:20:09 > 1:20:12As soon as I got into that hospital, the first thing the doctor
1:20:12 > 1:20:14came and told me - "You've got six months to live."
1:20:14 > 1:20:15- Oh!- First thing.
1:20:15 > 1:20:18That's the first thing she came into my room and told me.
1:20:18 > 1:20:21And instead of giving you hope, come and tell you you've got six months
1:20:21 > 1:20:24to live and you're going to die, and you've got a young kid at home...
1:20:26 > 1:20:27Yeah. And this is with my family.
1:20:27 > 1:20:29So I know my family.
1:20:29 > 1:20:34I think Uncle Manny did more for me than my father.
1:20:34 > 1:20:35- In what way? - I don't want to mention,
1:20:35 > 1:20:38but I'm just going to say this... But he helped me.
1:20:38 > 1:20:41Really, I didn't know that.
1:20:41 > 1:20:44So, how come your uncle that you haven't seen for all these years
1:20:44 > 1:20:46helps you and nobody else helps you?
1:20:48 > 1:20:50I didn't know, I didn't know.
1:20:52 > 1:20:54You know, Andrew, I'm sitting here...
1:20:55 > 1:20:59..and when I think of what I've gone through,
1:20:59 > 1:21:02it's absolutely nothing
1:21:02 > 1:21:04in comparison to what you've gone through.
1:21:16 > 1:21:18It's quite a story.
1:21:21 > 1:21:24But, Andrew, we live to tell the tale, that's the only thing to say.
1:21:24 > 1:21:26Sure. Yeah.
1:21:55 > 1:21:58Don't film me in my bikini.
1:21:58 > 1:22:00You finished the only...
1:22:02 > 1:22:04That's what he wanted to do and he did it...
1:22:04 > 1:22:07He's filming you. Have you got the top part on?
1:22:10 > 1:22:13- Right, we play them on Saturday. - Yeah.
1:22:17 > 1:22:22However far you go on the road, there's still a long way to go.
1:22:22 > 1:22:23That's right.
1:22:34 > 1:22:35We are waiting for Danny?
1:22:37 > 1:22:38We're waiting for Danny?
1:22:38 > 1:22:40- Yeah.- He's going to ring? - Yeah, yeah.
1:22:43 > 1:22:46RINGING
1:22:55 > 1:22:57Did you...?
1:22:57 > 1:22:59Did you ever love Mum? Lillian?
1:22:59 > 1:23:01Did you ever love her?
1:23:01 > 1:23:04Of course I loved her, otherwise I wouldn't...
1:23:04 > 1:23:05I wouldn't marry her!
1:23:05 > 1:23:09I loved all the women I've been with.
1:23:09 > 1:23:11This is the truth. I loved her.
1:23:11 > 1:23:13And I loved many women.
1:23:14 > 1:23:19No, but what I'm asking is whether you loved her as a person.
1:23:19 > 1:23:22You know, this was someone you wanted to spend the rest of your life with.
1:23:22 > 1:23:25What you ask about love and this sort of thing...
1:23:26 > 1:23:28..you have to talk to...
1:23:29 > 1:23:30..a writer.
1:23:31 > 1:23:33I'm not a writer.
1:23:36 > 1:23:41Look, Danny, what happened in the past is the past.
1:23:41 > 1:23:44You cannot bring the past back.
1:23:44 > 1:23:48It's not just the history of what happened on that day,
1:23:48 > 1:23:54but the consequences that people are living with today.
1:23:54 > 1:23:55I understand what you're saying.
1:24:01 > 1:24:02What can we do?
1:24:04 > 1:24:05What can we do?!
1:24:06 > 1:24:08What do you want to do?
1:24:10 > 1:24:12If you could do it all over again,
1:24:12 > 1:24:16is there anything you would want to say to Mum?
1:24:16 > 1:24:17Can I change it?
1:24:18 > 1:24:19No.
1:24:27 > 1:24:28Danny, how is your mother?
1:24:30 > 1:24:32Um...
1:24:32 > 1:24:34She's all right.
1:24:34 > 1:24:35OK.
1:24:39 > 1:24:42Danny, it was a pleasure to talk to you.
1:24:42 > 1:24:45I'm sorry for the hard life you had...
1:24:47 > 1:24:48..with your mother.
1:24:50 > 1:24:51If you see Lily...
1:24:53 > 1:24:54..give her my regards...
1:24:55 > 1:24:57..and say, "Lily.
1:24:58 > 1:25:00"You're not a bad girl.
1:25:01 > 1:25:02"You're all right."
1:25:30 > 1:25:33Do you have any recollections...?
1:25:33 > 1:25:34What have we got?
1:25:35 > 1:25:37Let me go and just have a look, excuse me a second.
1:25:37 > 1:25:41We're almost done, Mum, we've got, like, two tiny little things to do.
1:25:41 > 1:25:45Don't worry. Don't worry! Anything else is of no relevance.
1:25:45 > 1:25:47OK. I'll just keep going.
1:25:47 > 1:25:48This is true.
1:25:49 > 1:25:53Hi, sorry, is something... a machine on?
1:25:53 > 1:25:56- I think yes.- OK, do you mind turning it off, please?
1:25:56 > 1:25:58- Impossible.- You must turn it off.
1:25:58 > 1:26:00LILLIAN SOBS
1:26:01 > 1:26:03Thank you very much.
1:26:12 > 1:26:14- CREW:- It's going to be reset.- OK.
1:26:14 > 1:26:19My problem is, I never know what I'm letting myself in for.
1:26:19 > 1:26:21You say, "Mum, I want to do a doc..."
1:26:21 > 1:26:24Do I think? Do I want to do it?
1:26:24 > 1:26:27No, my first response is, "Yes."
1:26:27 > 1:26:31And before everybody sees this, I want to see it myself.
1:26:35 > 1:26:39I wish I could have done more, but, you know,
1:26:39 > 1:26:43I've just got this feeling of Bubbe looking down on us.
1:26:43 > 1:26:45Yeah.
1:26:45 > 1:26:47But Bubbe would be very happy, Mum.
1:26:47 > 1:26:50- Do you think so? - Of course she would be!
1:27:24 > 1:27:28What happened here was the Holocaust by bullets.
1:27:29 > 1:27:31They gathered the Jews up,
1:27:31 > 1:27:34brought them somewhere into the local forest,
1:27:34 > 1:27:36and killed them there.
1:27:37 > 1:27:41What happened is what happened to our family, our great-grandparents.
1:28:01 > 1:28:03PRAYER IS SAID
1:28:07 > 1:28:10PRAYER CONTINUES