0:00:26 > 0:00:29In the summer of 1977,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32a British television host with a reputation for acerbic wit,
0:00:32 > 0:00:37irreverent humour and searing interviews with society's villains
0:00:37 > 0:00:42scooped the media across the globe with a series of programmes that rocked the political world
0:00:42 > 0:00:46and had a ripple effect that went beyond its original expectations.
0:00:47 > 0:00:51David Frost's interviews with disgraced American President,
0:00:51 > 0:00:54Richard Nixon, three years after he resigned,
0:00:54 > 0:00:56were landmarks in political broadcasting.
0:00:56 > 0:01:01Eventually eliciting from the tough, legally-savvy politician
0:01:01 > 0:01:06a confession implicating himself in a major obstruction of justice.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09Of having, as he put it, let his friends down,
0:01:09 > 0:01:12let the country down and let the American people down.
0:01:12 > 0:01:19The programmes garnered sheaves of awards, even won plaudits from the grudging American press.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24In 2008, the one-to-one personality challenge between the two men, Frost and Nixon,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27was to be the subject of, first, a West End play
0:01:27 > 0:01:31and then a film starring Michael Sheen as Frost
0:01:31 > 0:01:34and Frank Langella as Nixon.
0:01:34 > 0:01:40The film won five Oscar nominations, including one for Langella's performance.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43I am here with Sir David Frost to find out the story behind the story.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46But first, the background.
0:01:48 > 0:01:511972 was American election year.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58Nixon had already served a first term and was campaigning vigorously for a second.
0:01:59 > 0:02:05Then, in June '72, a few months before election day, police arrested five men
0:02:05 > 0:02:11breaking into the offices of the Democratic Party in the Watergate building in Washington.
0:02:11 > 0:02:17Their leader was James McCord, Security Director of Nixon's re-election campaign.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21Those further up in the Republican Party denied all knowledge.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24What I have said, that I have no prior knowledge of
0:02:24 > 0:02:28and no involvement in the electronic bugging of the Watergate,
0:02:28 > 0:02:31that's what I've said all along and it's still as true.
0:02:31 > 0:02:36But the suspicion grew that the Republican Party had been trying to bug the Democrats.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38But did Nixon himself know?
0:02:38 > 0:02:41Was he even in collusion?
0:02:41 > 0:02:46In the following months, two reporters from the Washington Post,
0:02:46 > 0:02:51Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, uncovered the fact that there was indeed a secret slush fund
0:02:51 > 0:02:56to finance spying operations on the Democratic Party.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00Nonetheless, Nixon went on to win the election by a landslide.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04The next four years will be the time
0:03:04 > 0:03:09that we will try to make ourselves worthy of this victory.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14He was a President with major achievements to his name.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18He had made a diplomatic breakthrough with his visit to China,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21an agreement on nuclear missile reduction with Russia,
0:03:21 > 0:03:25and was close to ending American involvement in Vietnam.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29Yet the Watergate scandal did not go away.
0:03:35 > 0:03:40There was strong evidence of an attempt to block the investigation and obstruct justice.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Slowly, the complex network of intrigue was uncovered,
0:03:43 > 0:03:47finally implicating Richard Nixon himself.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51He resigned to avoid impeachment and retired in disgrace.
0:03:53 > 0:03:58As President, I must put the interests of America first.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02Therefore, I shall resign the Presidency
0:04:02 > 0:04:05effective at noon tomorrow.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09David Frost, what made you think you could scoop this story?
0:04:09 > 0:04:14What gave you the idea you could pull it off?
0:04:14 > 0:04:15I don't know.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19I think it started with the fact that he was clearly the most interesting
0:04:19 > 0:04:26and in some ways mysterious figure to interview in the world at that particular moment.
0:04:26 > 0:04:32The uniqueness of having to leave office but the drama that went with it.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36To unearth that story was just irresistible.
0:04:36 > 0:04:41And the fact that people said they thought it was impossible to do that made it even more irresistible.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44I can imagine that! Because you had a soaring career at that time,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47but you had really founded your career
0:04:47 > 0:04:50in the comedy boom of the early '60s.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53You were seen as a humourist.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57You had been the entertainment at the White House one Christmas for President Nixon.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01So it's possible to imagine he thought you were a lightweight?
0:05:01 > 0:05:06Well, it may have helped him say yes, perhaps if he did think that.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09But the thing is, by the time I had done the Nixon interviews...
0:05:09 > 0:05:12the film deliberately wanted to make me an underdog
0:05:12 > 0:05:16and implied that I'd done a couple of interviews in Australia before I interviewed Nixon.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18But by the time I interviewed Nixon,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22I had interviewed three or four thousand people by that time,
0:05:22 > 0:05:27so it was a regular stint for me, in one sense, although this was the biggest one.
0:05:27 > 0:05:33Tell me about the moment when you picked up the phone and started the process.
0:05:33 > 0:05:34I started the process, really,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37with a number of calls to people other than Nixon.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39The key moment was when Clay Felker,
0:05:39 > 0:05:42who created New York Magazine, great friend,
0:05:42 > 0:05:47said to me, Swifty Lazar is in the Hamptons this weekend on his way into New York,
0:05:47 > 0:05:51he's clearly been given an opportunity by Nixon now,
0:05:51 > 0:05:56they had announced the book and so on, to do television.
0:05:56 > 0:06:02So the first real call was really to Swifty Lazar, the legendary agent.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04It's a great name, Swifty Lazar!
0:06:04 > 0:06:09And that was because I think he got Humphrey Bogart three films in an afternoon
0:06:09 > 0:06:11or something like that, anyway.
0:06:11 > 0:06:16So you started asking around about what you would have to pay Nixon,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19because this was going to be a done deal, wasn't it?
0:06:19 > 0:06:22He wanted money. He needed money, didn't he?
0:06:22 > 0:06:25The interesting thing about that is I think he was at that moment
0:06:25 > 0:06:27very, very worried about money,
0:06:27 > 0:06:30and I think the reason he was worried about money,
0:06:30 > 0:06:34apart from general diffidence, sometimes, on those things,
0:06:34 > 0:06:39but the main reason was, he wasn't sure that some of the 30 people or whatever
0:06:39 > 0:06:43who had gone to jail, for short sentences but nevertheless gone to jail,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46for doing what he'd asked them to do, might sue him.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49And I think, in addition to anything else, he was worried about that.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52As it turned out, nobody did sue him.
0:06:52 > 0:06:58None of his loyal aides who went to prison for him did ever sue him,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01so his fears were not fulfilled, but that was his fear at the time.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04So you had to beat the networks at their own game,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07and the three networks were in play, weren't they?
0:07:07 > 0:07:12They all wanted to get this interview, and you were coming from behind, as it were.
0:07:12 > 0:07:17The networks were in two minds because they were worried about paying for an interview and so on,
0:07:17 > 0:07:22although, already, Lyndon Johnson had been paid for an interview
0:07:22 > 0:07:24when he left office by CBS,
0:07:24 > 0:07:28before this ever happened.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32Anyway, when it came through to the semi-finals, as it were,
0:07:32 > 0:07:36there was NBC and myself and NBC were offering at the end,
0:07:36 > 0:07:38I think, 400,000 for two hours,
0:07:38 > 0:07:44and I was offering 600,000 for six hours.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49So, hourly rate, I got a better deal.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53But on the other hand, the lesser amount of work would have been to take the NBC one.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57And the thing that everybody said, which was really interesting about this,
0:07:57 > 0:08:02was that, in fact, the NBC draft, which I'd obviously never seen,
0:08:02 > 0:08:04didn't stipulate, as we did,
0:08:04 > 0:08:09that a certain number of hours must be devoted to Watergate.
0:08:09 > 0:08:14The truth of the thing is, because he was quite illusive about sitting down to Watergate, even with us,
0:08:14 > 0:08:16with whom he had to, because of the contract,
0:08:16 > 0:08:21that if anyone had signed him up and not got Watergate in black and white,
0:08:21 > 0:08:24they would have a hell of a job of ever getting it.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26We'll come to the terms in a moment,
0:08:26 > 0:08:29but let's just deal with the fact that NBC might have bid
0:08:29 > 0:08:31and, indeed, they had the money.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34You bid more and you didn't have the money?
0:08:34 > 0:08:38David, one of the rules of media behaviour is that you don't go ahead
0:08:38 > 0:08:41with a programme until you know where the money's coming from!
0:08:41 > 0:08:45Well, that's the ideal, certainly, and that's normally what I would do.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47But in this particular case,
0:08:47 > 0:08:51I reckoned I could raise the money, and in the end I did.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54But it was quite hairy for a time in the middle,
0:08:54 > 0:08:59particularly when, early on, one of the promised backers withdrew.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03So it was quite hairy doing the interviews
0:09:03 > 0:09:08and then going off to the phone to get the rest of the money to continue with the interviews.
0:09:08 > 0:09:13And that was a bit of drama that I contained with myself and a few close colleagues.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16But it was quite tense.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18But how nail-biting was it?
0:09:18 > 0:09:22I mean, you were busy doing these heavy interviews all day long,
0:09:22 > 0:09:24and then heading off to try and raise money?
0:09:24 > 0:09:28Well, I've always believed that you've got to be versatile
0:09:28 > 0:09:31and that was a good example of being versatile, I guess.
0:09:31 > 0:09:3429 hours of interviewing.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38Was that difficult to establish from the start?
0:09:38 > 0:09:40And what made you think it would take 29 hours?
0:09:40 > 0:09:43- Yes, I don't think... - It's longer than The Ring.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46I don't think anyone else has ever been interviewed for,
0:09:46 > 0:09:48more or less continuous, over four weeks.
0:09:48 > 0:09:54I think, first of all, the daunting size of the agenda to be covered.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57We were doing, basically, the Nixon presidency.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59We weren't doing the early years
0:09:59 > 0:10:02of Nixon or the later years of Nixon, or whatever.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05It was such a dauntingly large subject
0:10:05 > 0:10:07that I thought we needed 24 hours,
0:10:07 > 0:10:14and we...got the 24 hours, after a bit of pressure.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19But, basically, Swifty Lazar and Co were not really opposed to that.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23I mean, "Do we really need that? Wouldn't 16 be enough?"
0:10:23 > 0:10:25But I said, "No, 24."
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Now, when we actually got into the sessions,
0:10:28 > 0:10:33Nixon was not filibustering, but he was sometimes taking longer
0:10:33 > 0:10:35to come to the point than he might have done,
0:10:35 > 0:10:38so we were pleased with where we were getting to,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41but we were going to run out of time, eventually.
0:10:41 > 0:10:46And so I made a date to go and have lunch
0:10:46 > 0:10:49with Jack Brennan, his Chief of Staff -
0:10:49 > 0:10:52delightful guy. I mean, it was a great team
0:10:52 > 0:10:54Nixon had for those interviews.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57I mean, it was a team that, if they'd have been the closest to him
0:10:57 > 0:11:01in the White House, he might not have got into all this trouble.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04But anyway, so I had lunch with Jack Brennan
0:11:04 > 0:11:08and did a bit of a Nixon trick on him,
0:11:08 > 0:11:10saying we needed four more hours,
0:11:10 > 0:11:14but we didn't have any more money to go from 24 to 28.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Jack, understandably, said,
0:11:16 > 0:11:20"Oh, I don't know whether we could do that with no more money
0:11:20 > 0:11:22"for an extra four hours. I mean..."
0:11:22 > 0:11:24And I said, "Because you know the thing is that,
0:11:24 > 0:11:28"if we can't get an extra four hours
0:11:28 > 0:11:34"we'll have to drop two or three subjects... Like China."
0:11:34 > 0:11:36BOTH CHUCKLE
0:11:36 > 0:11:41And that was perfect, and Jack saw his way to saying yes.
0:11:41 > 0:11:4629 hours of interviewing, David, is a marathon for the interviewer.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50I mean, did you go into training, did you stay fit? Did you exercise?
0:11:50 > 0:11:53I mean, how did you keep yourself on the ball?
0:11:53 > 0:11:56Who was it who said that, of her husband,
0:11:56 > 0:12:00"The only exercise he gets is jumping to conclusions."
0:12:00 > 0:12:02I don't know, but maybe there's something of that in it.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07But, basically, the thing was, it was on the very first day
0:12:07 > 0:12:12it really was borne in on me that the first of, at that stage,
0:12:12 > 0:12:1412 two-hour sessions,
0:12:14 > 0:12:18which became two and a half hours after this later conversation,
0:12:18 > 0:12:23and I suddenly realised that, forget for a minute about the 24 hours,
0:12:23 > 0:12:28I've never interviewed anyone continuously for TWO hours.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32It's quite a long time for a continuous non-stop interview,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35and I thought, "I'm about to do this 12 times over."
0:12:35 > 0:12:39I mean, that's when it really... it came home to me.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43But then the first session went, among other things, very quickly
0:12:43 > 0:12:47and one got into the pattern of doing two hours.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50"Doesn't everyone do two hours?" Of course, they never do.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52- It was like being an athlete?- Yes.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55- You had to stay fit, not over-eat, not indulge.- Oh, no.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58But you did go to parties and you did go to opening nights,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01even while you were doing these interviews?
0:13:01 > 0:13:04Yes, one was a premiere of a film I'd produced or co-produced,
0:13:04 > 0:13:09'but, basically, one didn't go to very many social occasions
0:13:09 > 0:13:11'in that period, from the last period
0:13:11 > 0:13:14'when one's there preparing it and doing it. I had a birthday'
0:13:14 > 0:13:16which I didn't suppress -
0:13:16 > 0:13:20I had a birthday party and things like that - but, basically, it was,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23I worked a damned sight harder than I ever did
0:13:23 > 0:13:26for my degree at Cambridge.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28Now, what was the Nixon team like?
0:13:28 > 0:13:31What sort of negotiations did you enter into with them
0:13:31 > 0:13:33before you started? Were they very exact?
0:13:33 > 0:13:36Well, we could do several hours on that,
0:13:36 > 0:13:39because there was a period when they were trying to hold off
0:13:39 > 0:13:44doing, first of all, because they didn't want to mess up or interfere
0:13:44 > 0:13:47with Haldeman and Ehrlichman's upcoming trials,
0:13:47 > 0:13:50so they said, "We can't talk about Watergate until after that,"
0:13:50 > 0:13:53and, of course, anything related to Watergate.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56They started listing a lot more things that they couldn't talk about
0:13:56 > 0:14:00until these trials were over and so on, and there was, in the end,
0:14:00 > 0:14:02there had to be a crunch and one had to say,
0:14:02 > 0:14:05"Well, look, you know, this is..." At one stage, Jack Brennan said,
0:14:05 > 0:14:09"If you can't agree with that delay for Watergate, or whatever,
0:14:09 > 0:14:13"the President would rather hand back the cheque
0:14:13 > 0:14:15"and forget the whole thing."
0:14:15 > 0:14:20And, you know, one had to say that, at that point, one was considerably
0:14:20 > 0:14:24committed and, you know, that he would have to probably look forward
0:14:24 > 0:14:27to a writ for about 20m, if he did that, you know, or more.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29Did you have to threaten that?
0:14:29 > 0:14:36Yes, yes, I did, but not in a threatening voice.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40- A charming voice.- Just in a legally-threatening voice.- Yes!
0:14:40 > 0:14:43So it really came to the edge, that they were on the point
0:14:43 > 0:14:46of withdrawing, because of the timing of the interviews?
0:14:46 > 0:14:49This is a very complicated thing, because there was the question
0:14:49 > 0:14:55of whether the interviews were going to effect the actual trials
0:14:55 > 0:14:57of Haldeman and Ehrlichman,
0:14:57 > 0:15:02and so that, while one's sympathetic with that to a certain extent,
0:15:02 > 0:15:06at the same time, we had these deadlines we had to meet and so on,
0:15:06 > 0:15:08and that they knew about and had signed on for and so on,
0:15:08 > 0:15:13so it would have been an outrageous breach of contract.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17And it didn't happen and, as ever happened with all in the period
0:15:17 > 0:15:22leading up to it with Richard Nixon, I said to one of his aides once,
0:15:22 > 0:15:26"Why is it that Richard Nixon, when he finally agrees to something,
0:15:26 > 0:15:30"has opposed it in such outright terms and so on,
0:15:30 > 0:15:34"that he doesn't get the gratitude for agreeing at the end,
0:15:34 > 0:15:37"because you've had such a struggle to get there, you know,
0:15:37 > 0:15:40"and he's being a fool to himself, as it were", and so on.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43"Well, that's the way he does things," they said.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47- And Nixon had said at the start, "no holds barred", hadn't he?- Yes.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49- He had actually said that to you? - Yes, yes.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51So you knew that it was combat to the death?
0:15:51 > 0:15:53Well, yes, it was going to be.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57Parts of it were certainly going... Obviously, the interesting thing
0:15:57 > 0:16:00about the interviews is there's the conflict about Watergate,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03and conflict about other subjects, the Houston Plan and so on,
0:16:03 > 0:16:05but, of course, there were also,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08in the 28 and three quarter hours, or whatever, there were also
0:16:08 > 0:16:12sessions on China, where instead of being an interrogator,
0:16:12 > 0:16:15one became, almost, Nixon's Boswell,
0:16:15 > 0:16:20you know, Boswell to his Johnson, really, because the full story
0:16:20 > 0:16:25of what happened in China was obviously not of adversary material.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28It was something we all wanted to know about and most people
0:16:28 > 0:16:33applauded as a good move, anyway, you know. So it was important to,
0:16:33 > 0:16:37as it always is with interviews, to get the right tone,
0:16:37 > 0:16:41and the tone on Watergate was different to the tone on China, for instance.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45Do you regret that the Watergate part of the story
0:16:45 > 0:16:48scooped the headlines and has made it famous,
0:16:48 > 0:16:52and the interesting developments over China, which you gave
0:16:52 > 0:16:56an excellent exposition of, have rather fallen by the wayside?
0:16:56 > 0:16:59Yes, I think that was probably predictable,
0:16:59 > 0:17:02in the sense that Watergate was the unsolved mystery
0:17:02 > 0:17:05of who was the villain. People thought they knew,
0:17:05 > 0:17:09but didn't know for sure, so I think that was always
0:17:09 > 0:17:12going to be more dramatic and there were things...
0:17:12 > 0:17:17One of the most memorable things in the interviews, about where I said,
0:17:17 > 0:17:20"So you mean that if the President really feels
0:17:20 > 0:17:26"it's an important enough issue, then he can do something illegal
0:17:26 > 0:17:29"if national interest dictates?"
0:17:29 > 0:17:33And Nixon said, "Well, if the President does it
0:17:33 > 0:17:35"that means it's not illegal."
0:17:35 > 0:17:37And, as he said those words -
0:17:37 > 0:17:39in a session before the Watergate session,
0:17:39 > 0:17:40not the Watergate session,
0:17:40 > 0:17:44about the Houston plan and so on - as he said those words,
0:17:44 > 0:17:45I mean, I just thought,
0:17:45 > 0:17:49"Those words are going to resound from these interviews almost as much
0:17:49 > 0:17:53"as the Watergate material." And, of course, that's true.
0:17:53 > 0:17:58That quote has been played back so many times.
0:17:58 > 0:18:03It was something that really particularly enraged
0:18:03 > 0:18:06one's American friends, you know, who feel very strongly
0:18:06 > 0:18:09about their constitution and it not being
0:18:09 > 0:18:15invaded by a president and so on, and so that was just one exchange.
0:18:15 > 0:18:20It wasn't as lengthy as Watergate, but it did have a tremendous impact.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22Did you, when he made that remark,
0:18:22 > 0:18:25which, as you rightly say, has become legendary,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28did you notice a flicker on his face -
0:18:28 > 0:18:31that he recognised that this was a hostage to fortune,
0:18:31 > 0:18:34he'll never be able to retract that sentence?
0:18:36 > 0:18:39I don't think so, I mean, that's a very interesting one.
0:18:39 > 0:18:40I did get the impression...
0:18:40 > 0:18:42the thing I thought when he said it was,
0:18:42 > 0:18:47that I must say something to try and get him to carry on -
0:18:47 > 0:18:51"This is gold, this is pure gold, even if he says nothing more.
0:18:51 > 0:18:53"But if I can get him to talk about it..."
0:18:53 > 0:18:59One, you try and look unsurprised by this remark, you know.
0:18:59 > 0:19:06You don't go, "Yes! You've said it!" So that you look unconcerned.
0:19:06 > 0:19:11And I said something like, "..as a matter of course."
0:19:11 > 0:19:14And he said, "Exactly." So you were just trying to,
0:19:14 > 0:19:18were trying to continue the golden trail a little bit longer.
0:19:18 > 0:19:19Let's talk about your behaviour,
0:19:19 > 0:19:23because this is where it gets really interesting, and when we see
0:19:23 > 0:19:27the interviews played, it will be interesting to watch his expressions,
0:19:27 > 0:19:31his body language and, indeed, yours, because this is gladiatorial stuff.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35You weren't so much an interviewer as a prosecutor, David.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38On Watergate, definitely, and, in fact, he himself in the interview
0:19:38 > 0:19:44says something to the effect about my being the prosecutor,
0:19:44 > 0:19:46and "You're doing it very well", and all of that.
0:19:46 > 0:19:50And him being the defence and so on, so that was clearly prosecution
0:19:50 > 0:19:54and defence, or at least, the first of the two days on Watergate was.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57The second day, it's not right to say father-confessor,
0:19:57 > 0:20:01- but I was there to push him and push him.- Well, we'll get round to that.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03Well, you certainly do that, but let's consider,
0:20:03 > 0:20:08I mean, he has had a career as a lawyer and he's not called
0:20:08 > 0:20:12Tricky Dicky for nothing. I mean, he was a very, very astute lawyer.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16Did you come to recognise how brilliant a mind he had?
0:20:16 > 0:20:22Yes, I think he did. It was very... And he'd been very smart
0:20:22 > 0:20:26and he'd been taking no prisoners with various people in politics.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30- Well, your approach was to do an enormous amount of research.- Yes.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Very extensive research, over months, I think.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35Yes, over a year, yeah. 12 months, yeah.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39And, in fact, pieces of paper everywhere, ink everywhere,
0:20:39 > 0:20:43- Caroline Cushing, your girlfriend... - Including on my fingers, usually.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47- She said you always had inky fingers everywhere.- That's absolutely true.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49Yes. Still do.
0:20:49 > 0:20:55Still can't manage how you deal with a Pentel pen without getting it on.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58Right, inky fingers and lots of research into the law.
0:20:58 > 0:21:03We're going to look at a clip where Nixon tries to wrongfoot you
0:21:03 > 0:21:08with his legal background and actually makes a fool of himself.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11Now this is something that you had researched,
0:21:11 > 0:21:16it's the statute on corruption, and just... You tell the story about
0:21:16 > 0:21:19how you'd just researched it before you departed
0:21:19 > 0:21:21to do the interview that day.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24Well, it was. I raised it in the car, on the way down,
0:21:24 > 0:21:28we all went down in the same car, and just said,
0:21:28 > 0:21:33"Let's just go over that law and its implications again,
0:21:33 > 0:21:35"let's just go through it."
0:21:35 > 0:21:38And Bob and John and everyone, we went through it,
0:21:38 > 0:21:41so it just so happened, magically,
0:21:41 > 0:21:46that we'd discussed it just before the interview, on the very same day.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50That very hour or so before the interview, you had spelled out
0:21:50 > 0:21:53- what that statue was?- Yes.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56- And here is Nixon trying to wrongfoot you.- Oh, right.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59You used the term "obstruction of justice".
0:21:59 > 0:22:01You perhaps have not read the statute,
0:22:01 > 0:22:07- with regard to...obstruction of justice.- No, I have.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09Obstruction... Well, oh, I'm sorry,
0:22:09 > 0:22:14of course, you probably have read it, but possibly you might have
0:22:14 > 0:22:17missed it, because when I read it, many years ago,
0:22:17 > 0:22:21er, perhaps when I was studying law,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25although the statute didn't even exist then, because it is
0:22:25 > 0:22:27'a relatively new statute, as you know.'
0:22:27 > 0:22:31But in any event, when I read it in recent times,
0:22:31 > 0:22:35I was not familiar with all of the implications of it.
0:22:35 > 0:22:42The statute doesn't require just an act, the statute has
0:22:42 > 0:22:47the specific provision, "..one must corruptly
0:22:47 > 0:22:54- "impede a judicial manner".- Well, a corrupt endeavour is enough.
0:22:54 > 0:22:59A... All right. A conduct endeavour.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01A corrupt endeavour, it was,
0:23:01 > 0:23:03and you got the phrase right and he got it wrong.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07I know. That was odd, wasn't it? Because that was a very legal thing
0:23:07 > 0:23:12and he was so... I mean, and correcting himself
0:23:12 > 0:23:15and trying to be gracious and, "Of course, you've probably read it",
0:23:15 > 0:23:17and all of that, it was a... Yes,
0:23:17 > 0:23:22in terms of when that's played, as it sometimes is, to an audience,
0:23:22 > 0:23:25I mean, it is as hilarious a clip, in terms of the response
0:23:25 > 0:23:30- it gets, as anything.- Because it turned the argument against himself?
0:23:30 > 0:23:31Yes. Absolutely.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35Now, in this encounter, he's obviously playing
0:23:35 > 0:23:38a legal game, too. What sort of tactics did he employ
0:23:38 > 0:23:41and how soon did you recognise what he was doing?
0:23:41 > 0:23:46Well, one thing that one feared, as a possibility, of course,
0:23:46 > 0:23:50would be that he would filibust through and take an eternity
0:23:50 > 0:23:52to answer simple questions and so on,
0:23:52 > 0:23:56and he never did that, really. What he only did sometimes was
0:23:56 > 0:24:01he would sometimes, instead of people answering the question
0:24:01 > 0:24:04and then maybe going off in another direction towards the end,
0:24:04 > 0:24:09he would often start at the other end and come round,
0:24:09 > 0:24:12but all the while meaning to, and coming around to
0:24:12 > 0:24:14answering the question at the end.
0:24:14 > 0:24:18It was his way of doing things, sometimes. Oddly enough,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21if you watch the first two lines of it, you would think
0:24:21 > 0:24:25he was getting away and off the subject, and it was only
0:24:25 > 0:24:29if you watch the whole answer, you see it came round at the end.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34But he would answer the questions in the end,
0:24:34 > 0:24:37and he wouldn't filibuster, but sometimes he did start
0:24:37 > 0:24:39away from the point and come to the point.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41If it had been a filibuster,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44he would never have got to the point at all, at the end.
0:24:44 > 0:24:49Your researchers began to be anxious that he was putting up
0:24:49 > 0:24:51quite a good case, and that, in fact, there was just
0:24:51 > 0:24:57a tiny risk that Nixon himself would come out of this well and would be
0:24:57 > 0:25:02reinstated in popular reputation. Did you ever have that sense?
0:25:02 > 0:25:06No, I didn't. About halfway through the interviews,
0:25:06 > 0:25:12there was this question about whether we were being tough enough
0:25:12 > 0:25:14on one or two subjects and, oddly enough,
0:25:14 > 0:25:16the discussion actually took place
0:25:16 > 0:25:21two or three days after the famous quote we were just talking about
0:25:21 > 0:25:25from the Houston Plan - "..and if the President does it
0:25:25 > 0:25:27"that means it's not illegal", that quote.
0:25:27 > 0:25:31So, no, I didn't share it, but I shared a concern, obviously,
0:25:31 > 0:25:35that we were going to score in the end, as it were,
0:25:35 > 0:25:41over the whole scene and, obviously, in terms of emphasising
0:25:41 > 0:25:46the underdog thing - and it's a bit dramatic,
0:25:46 > 0:25:49the film rather goes over the top about the fact of their worries
0:25:49 > 0:25:53after two or three sessions and so on - but, I mean, no,
0:25:53 > 0:25:58I never thought we would fail, but despite talking about raising money
0:25:58 > 0:26:02earlier, I mean, whatever money one had, one wouldn't necessarily
0:26:02 > 0:26:04have put it all on the fact that we were going to prevail,
0:26:04 > 0:26:07- but I thought we would. - In your book, you talk about
0:26:07 > 0:26:10having that encounter, when you said to your team,
0:26:10 > 0:26:14- "Look, anyone who thinks we're going to fail had better leave now."- Yes.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16- And there was...- Pause.- ..a pause.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20- And nobody left!- But it must have...- Tense, as a moment.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23Quite a tense moment. It's bad enough dealing with Nixon,
0:26:23 > 0:26:26- than to have your own team feeling that you're being too soft.- Yes.
0:26:26 > 0:26:30What did you make of the allegation that you were too soft?
0:26:30 > 0:26:38Well, I think it's the sort of thing that one's often felt over the years
0:26:38 > 0:26:42since then, or occasionally felt it, in the sense that,
0:26:42 > 0:26:48you mustn't confuse the style of voice with the intellectual content,
0:26:48 > 0:26:53and that, whether it was Neil Kinnock or other famous interviews
0:26:53 > 0:26:56with Margaret Thatcher and other people,
0:26:56 > 0:26:59that I mean it's the content, the intellectual content, that matters,
0:26:59 > 0:27:02and it's often better to keep it conversational,
0:27:02 > 0:27:05rather than becoming hostile and aggressive,
0:27:05 > 0:27:08because that can shut people up. Particularly, I guess,
0:27:08 > 0:27:11if it's someone you've got to talk to for another 16 hours, you know.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13So I wasn't worried about...
0:27:13 > 0:27:18Of course, that was a point to be concerned about in terms of -
0:27:18 > 0:27:22and to be relieved it hadn't happened at the end and so on -
0:27:22 > 0:27:28but, basically, I always, somehow or other,
0:27:28 > 0:27:30I thought we were going to get there.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33But it's always been your technique to go in slowly, hasn't it,
0:27:33 > 0:27:35and gently, and always being very polite,
0:27:35 > 0:27:38but, nonetheless, with the killer punch coming?
0:27:38 > 0:27:41That's the ideal. Yes, absolutely.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44The words that John Smith, the former Labour leader,
0:27:44 > 0:27:48in his last interview with us on Breakfast With Frost, said,
0:27:48 > 0:27:52"You have a way of asking beguiling questions
0:27:52 > 0:27:54"with potentially lethal consequences."
0:27:54 > 0:27:57And I said, "Well, on balance, I'd be happy
0:27:57 > 0:28:01- "to have that on my tombstone." - 29 hours of them.- Yes!
0:28:01 > 0:28:03There came a point at which, according to your book
0:28:03 > 0:28:07and, indeed, in the film - I don't know whether it's true or not -
0:28:07 > 0:28:10John Birt took you aside and said,
0:28:10 > 0:28:15"You've got to start dominating the conversation now. You've got to move
0:28:15 > 0:28:19"into a different style - physically dominate the interview."
0:28:19 > 0:28:23- Yes.- David, tell me how you physically dominate an interview?
0:28:23 > 0:28:26I don't know exactly how one does it, but one knows afterwards
0:28:26 > 0:28:28that one's done it. But he was absolutely right.
0:28:28 > 0:28:32He'd seen it when we'd been doing the series together in England,
0:28:32 > 0:28:37it had happened on occasions, and he felt that, as you say,
0:28:37 > 0:28:42that, in fact, that you've got to take control of the conversation,
0:28:42 > 0:28:44and part of that is a physical thing,
0:28:44 > 0:28:52and it's obviously not as obvious as that, quite,
0:28:52 > 0:28:56because that would be... But there's time for the person to be warned
0:28:56 > 0:28:59as you make the journey across the room.
0:28:59 > 0:29:03So it's not that, but it is a form of control,
0:29:03 > 0:29:07in terms of a slightly more aggressive style of voice.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11It's because so much, as you know, as an expert,
0:29:11 > 0:29:15that interviewing, or so much of interviewing, is instinct,
0:29:15 > 0:29:18and so a lot of that thing of taking physical control of the interview,
0:29:18 > 0:29:20is instinct, you know.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23Like with silences, for instance, in interviews,
0:29:23 > 0:29:25that you've got to have the instinct.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28There's a pause, a pregnant pause and, it's an instinct,
0:29:28 > 0:29:32you've got to know either that the person, if you shut up,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35will go much further, or that he's blind forgotten every word
0:29:35 > 0:29:38he was about to say, and you'd better leap in
0:29:38 > 0:29:39as fast as possible.
0:29:39 > 0:29:43So it's instinct. So it's instinct with the physical control thing.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45But I know what he means, and sometimes,
0:29:45 > 0:29:50I can sometimes see an interview set up where the chairs
0:29:50 > 0:29:52are just too far apart,
0:29:52 > 0:29:57that you could never gain physical control of the interview.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59But presumably Nixon's a huge man, isn't he?
0:29:59 > 0:30:04A very broad, large man, and you're less broad and large,
0:30:04 > 0:30:08- so it was quite a challenge? - Thank you!- But graceful.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11We've got an example of your doing that,
0:30:11 > 0:30:13and I wonder if you, perhaps when you've seen it,
0:30:13 > 0:30:16you'll tell us exactly how you went into action
0:30:16 > 0:30:20- to make that effective. Here it is. - Oh, right.
0:30:20 > 0:30:22'Six times I said,'
0:30:22 > 0:30:24"You can't provide clemency." It's wrong, for sure.
0:30:24 > 0:30:28I've never said though that you did provide clemency,
0:30:28 > 0:30:31- nor was I talking about the long term.- But my point is, without...
0:30:31 > 0:30:35Let me quote to you then. I've been through the record,
0:30:35 > 0:30:37I want to be totally fair
0:30:37 > 0:30:39and let me read to you the last quote on the transcripts
0:30:39 > 0:30:41that I can find about this matter.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44You said, "Why didn't I go to the last one?"
0:30:44 > 0:30:46I read 16 and I thought that was enough,
0:30:46 > 0:30:49but we could have read many more, no doubt.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52But the last thing in the transcripts
0:30:52 > 0:30:58I can find about this subject was you talking on April 20th
0:30:58 > 0:31:03and you were recollecting this meeting and you said that you said
0:31:03 > 0:31:08to Dean, and to Haldeman, "Christ, turn over any cash we got."
0:31:08 > 0:31:11That's YOUR recollection of the meeting, on April 20th,
0:31:11 > 0:31:14when you didn't know you were on television.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17- Look at all those gestures! - Yes! I'm surprised.
0:31:17 > 0:31:21Do you remember feeling, "I've got to really shout him down?"
0:31:21 > 0:31:24No, I did, in the middle there, yes.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26No, I wasn't consciously doing that, but I absolutely did
0:31:26 > 0:31:29do that there, and yes, that was...
0:31:30 > 0:31:34I think that the hand gesture was more me...
0:31:36 > 0:31:40.doing the gesture for myself, really, rather than for Nixon.
0:31:40 > 0:31:44I mean, a hand here was not going to be particularly fearsome.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47I mean because it would never get...
0:31:47 > 0:31:51Even if you've got a greater reach than Muhammad Ali.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55I think that was just getting
0:31:55 > 0:31:58a wee bit passionate myself
0:31:58 > 0:32:01rather than probably trying to do that to Nixon.
0:32:01 > 0:32:03But that was a good example of the cut and thrust
0:32:03 > 0:32:06that there was often in the interviews.
0:32:06 > 0:32:12But there was, and indeed he remained enormously in control of himself, didn't he?
0:32:12 > 0:32:16He did occasionally get rather thoughtful, not surprisingly,
0:32:16 > 0:32:18but he was a very controlled man.
0:32:18 > 0:32:22Did you feel you ever got through to Nixon the human being?
0:32:22 > 0:32:23Oddly enough it was at the end,
0:32:23 > 0:32:30when we were leaving California, and so I went to take my leave
0:32:30 > 0:32:36of Nixon to say thank you and so on, at Sacramento,
0:32:36 > 0:32:41and Nixon said, "Hello, David".
0:32:41 > 0:32:45Well, that was a first shock, because that was the first time in
0:32:45 > 0:32:52the whole 28 and 3/4 hours that he'd used my Christian name.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55- He'd always called you Mr Frost? - Yes, Mr Frost.
0:32:55 > 0:33:02So that was a surprise, but it was a cue for an incredible,
0:33:02 > 0:33:07probably 20 minutes, when Nixon was, and this is a word
0:33:07 > 0:33:10that I've never seen anyone use about him,
0:33:10 > 0:33:12but he was on this occasion, carefree.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16Nixon carefree, yes, Nixon carefree, for about 20 minutes,
0:33:16 > 0:33:22and he welcomed us in and then he said to Caroline,
0:33:22 > 0:33:24"Let me show you around,"
0:33:24 > 0:33:28and took her along and around up to a room, and he said,
0:33:28 > 0:33:32"Brezhnev used to sleep there.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35"Great swordsman, of course, Brezhnev, and so on,
0:33:35 > 0:33:39"but the Russians are, you know!" "Dostoevsky!"
0:33:39 > 0:33:45And so around the place in that sense, and then came back into the main room
0:33:45 > 0:33:49and said to his beloved, well, I suppose, Batman would be as good a word,
0:33:49 > 0:33:55"Manolo, get out the caviar that Charles sent us for Christmas."
0:33:55 > 0:34:00And interestingly he was still sending caviar,
0:34:00 > 0:34:04and he was soon to leave office, of course, himself as well.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08Anyway, he said, "Before you go, give us your impression
0:34:08 > 0:34:12"of Henry Kissinger," so he did a hilarious impression of Henry Kissinger
0:34:12 > 0:34:14and then he went off to get the caviar.
0:34:14 > 0:34:19And it was just for about 20 minutes, Nixon as carefree,
0:34:19 > 0:34:25and then after about 20 minutes, just because he was always affable,
0:34:25 > 0:34:29he was not rude to people just as a point of nothing,
0:34:29 > 0:34:35but these sort of transparent walls
0:34:35 > 0:34:39went across and once more
0:34:39 > 0:34:43he was still affable, but no longer intimate.
0:34:43 > 0:34:48And that was an extraordinary glimpse of a Nixon
0:34:48 > 0:34:50that you rarely saw.
0:34:50 > 0:34:54Well, we get a glimpse of another Nixon, and probably
0:34:54 > 0:34:57the true Nixon too, towards the end of the Watergate interviews
0:34:57 > 0:35:02when you elicit from him what you had been hoping to hear all along.
0:35:02 > 0:35:03Yes.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06He speaks in the course of the interviews of being a Quaker,
0:35:06 > 0:35:09and you yourself come from a Methodist background,
0:35:09 > 0:35:12your father was a Methodist minister,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15and I feel there's a great quality of the religious confession
0:35:15 > 0:35:20about this. We're going to see an extract of how you went about it,
0:35:20 > 0:35:23but I wonder whether you felt that you had reached
0:35:23 > 0:35:24a confessional point?
0:35:27 > 0:35:30Yes, perhaps confessional isn't right...
0:35:30 > 0:35:32but when you... Very much...
0:35:32 > 0:35:34We're talking morals here, aren't we?
0:35:34 > 0:35:37Yes, and in terms of...
0:35:37 > 0:35:40There was a real sense of...
0:35:40 > 0:35:44not of religious faith,
0:35:44 > 0:35:50but religious sensibility in this, yes, and I think that he was...
0:35:50 > 0:35:52he wasn't...
0:35:52 > 0:35:56Although he was certainly not a Catholic, but I mean that,
0:35:56 > 0:35:59a sense of confession towards the end.
0:35:59 > 0:36:04- And relieving himself of his guilt, to some extent?- Yes.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07I don't want to push the religious element too strongly,
0:36:07 > 0:36:11but I think we can see that you have brought from him
0:36:11 > 0:36:15the confession he thought he'd never make. Here it is.
0:36:16 > 0:36:18'I would like to hear you say,'
0:36:18 > 0:36:23I think the American people would like to hear you say, one is...
0:36:24 > 0:36:27There was probably more
0:36:27 > 0:36:30than mistakes,
0:36:30 > 0:36:35there was wrongdoing, whether it was a crime or not, yes,
0:36:35 > 0:36:38it may have been a crime too.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41Secondly,
0:36:41 > 0:36:44I did...
0:36:44 > 0:36:48And I'm saying this without questioning the motives, right?
0:36:48 > 0:36:51I did abuse the power I had as president,
0:36:51 > 0:36:56or not fulfilled the totality of the oath of office,
0:36:56 > 0:36:58that's the second thing.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01And thirdly,
0:37:01 > 0:37:04I put the American people through two years of needless agony
0:37:04 > 0:37:07and I apologise for that.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09And I say that,
0:37:09 > 0:37:14you've explained your motives, I think those are the categories.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17And I know how difficult it is for anyone, and most of all you,
0:37:17 > 0:37:21but I think that people need to hear it,
0:37:21 > 0:37:24and I think unless you say it,
0:37:24 > 0:37:29you're going to be haunted for the rest of your life.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33- Well, his face says it all, David. - Yes.
0:37:33 > 0:37:34Just watching that again,
0:37:34 > 0:37:38and that sort of slight anguish throwing his head back,
0:37:38 > 0:37:42and then of course the fact was that
0:37:42 > 0:37:44I was waiting for him to respond,
0:37:44 > 0:37:46and his first response was to say, as you know,
0:37:46 > 0:37:51was to say, "Well, what word would you express?"
0:37:51 > 0:37:55And that was really the most sort of
0:37:55 > 0:37:58silence-grabbing moment that one experienced,
0:37:58 > 0:38:02because suddenly one had, in a sense,
0:38:02 > 0:38:07to formulate three points for him and so on.
0:38:07 > 0:38:10And at the same time formulate them
0:38:10 > 0:38:15in such a way that one avoided getting into words like crime
0:38:15 > 0:38:20but using wrongdoing, and using these words
0:38:20 > 0:38:24so as one kept with the kernel of what we were trying to say.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27So after 29 hours, or something like,
0:38:27 > 0:38:29you got to this point,
0:38:29 > 0:38:32did you recognise the significance of it at the time?
0:38:32 > 0:38:36Yes, I think one started to feel it in the last 20 minutes
0:38:36 > 0:38:40as he addressed all of those three points that we just saw.
0:38:40 > 0:38:46And, um...and yes, I think one was coming to that realisation
0:38:46 > 0:38:49that this was really...keep...
0:38:49 > 0:38:52or during that period, to keep it going,
0:38:52 > 0:38:57to keep it moving on because there was more he had to say, one hoped.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01And he did have more to say, so yes,
0:39:01 > 0:39:05one did start to feel it towards the end, and afterwards there was...
0:39:08 > 0:39:12It had been an extraordinary two and a half hour session or whatever,
0:39:12 > 0:39:18and everybody there, really, our colleagues,
0:39:18 > 0:39:23but his colleagues too, were knocked out by what they'd seen.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26Did you ever feel any pity for him?
0:39:28 > 0:39:32Well, it was very difficult to feel that for him at that time,
0:39:32 > 0:39:35because the 30, or whatever it was, people who worked for him
0:39:35 > 0:39:38who'd gone to jail because of what they did for him,
0:39:38 > 0:39:44you know, and that made it sort of... The sympathy was split,
0:39:44 > 0:39:47obviously, at the very least in that sense.
0:39:47 > 0:39:51So 30 years later, that dialogue would be different
0:39:51 > 0:39:54with nobody in jail and nobody had suffered for it,
0:39:54 > 0:39:57but at the time it was very...
0:39:57 > 0:40:01So one was able to feel a certain empathy
0:40:01 > 0:40:06for this man who had so wanted to be great
0:40:06 > 0:40:10and hadn't been, and so on. A certain empathy,
0:40:10 > 0:40:14but not really a sympathy because of the people
0:40:14 > 0:40:19who were casualties of his policies.
0:40:19 > 0:40:23- And they make a film of it, they make a play about it.- Yes.
0:40:23 > 0:40:24And then they make a film of it.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28You go to see the play, the audience falls silent as you enter
0:40:28 > 0:40:31- the auditorium, and then they made a film.- That's right.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34Which garners huge, huge awards and nominations and so on.
0:40:34 > 0:40:38What did you feel about the telling of the story
0:40:38 > 0:40:41and the way that it was shown?
0:40:41 > 0:40:46Were you conscious that Michael Sheen was at all like you?
0:40:46 > 0:40:48Not particularly.
0:40:48 > 0:40:53I remember after the thing, when the play had been announced,
0:40:53 > 0:40:57and going to Broadway and then the film had been announced.
0:40:57 > 0:41:02Michael Sheen was on my Al Jazeera programme and he said
0:41:02 > 0:41:09"Yes, do you realise I'm going to be playing David Frost
0:41:09 > 0:41:14"for the next 12 months," and I said "That's a coincidence, so am I!"
0:41:14 > 0:41:17But he was a delight to get to know,
0:41:17 > 0:41:19and I thought they did a great job with the film.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22- Can we just clear up one or two delicate matters of...- Why not!
0:41:22 > 0:41:28Fictional licence. You did not pick up Caroline Cushing on the flight over to America.
0:41:28 > 0:41:33No, no, it was in Monte Carlo that we first met,
0:41:33 > 0:41:38but I guess at that time, when they were doing the play in London
0:41:38 > 0:41:42with a limited budget, it was a bit easier to have two airline seats
0:41:42 > 0:41:48than have a Monte Carlo ball at the sporting club in Monte Carlo.
0:41:48 > 0:41:50Also, did Nixon remark on your shoes?
0:41:50 > 0:41:54Yes, he did, strangely enough.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59We were talking on the way there, talking about this problem
0:41:59 > 0:42:05about Nixon for the... He believes you shouldn't do anything other than small talk
0:42:05 > 0:42:08for the first five minutes and then get down to the business,
0:42:08 > 0:42:12and so we were going down there and thinking what would be
0:42:12 > 0:42:17the subject that would come up before the five minutes were up.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20And on this particular occasion, I just happened to say,
0:42:20 > 0:42:26"Well, he'll probably ask about something non-interesting like my shoes,
0:42:26 > 0:42:29I mean and somebody said, "Yeah, probably,"
0:42:29 > 0:42:33This was absolutely unlikely that a president, or a former president,
0:42:33 > 0:42:35would make a comment about someone's shoes,
0:42:35 > 0:42:41and we sat down before the interview and the first thing Nixon said was,
0:42:41 > 0:42:43"Where did you get those shoes?"
0:42:43 > 0:42:46And I said, "They're Italian." "Oh, really?"
0:42:46 > 0:42:50David, to be serious, finally, was it the toughest job you ever did?
0:42:53 > 0:42:59It was tough in terms of living up to the story that
0:42:59 > 0:43:01one had to try and get out of this.
0:43:01 > 0:43:03The high point of your career?
0:43:03 > 0:43:06Difficult to think of one that's more so, I think.
0:43:06 > 0:43:09I can think of...
0:43:09 > 0:43:12No, in that sense it...
0:43:12 > 0:43:17There's still no-one else who's ever talked to anyone for 28 hours!
0:43:17 > 0:43:20So in that sense, there are people I've done
0:43:20 > 0:43:25an hour's interview with that has been absolutely memorable
0:43:25 > 0:43:27and so on, but not 28 and 3/4 hours obviously,
0:43:27 > 0:43:33and not with quite such a historical climax to come to.
0:43:33 > 0:43:36- But this is...- So one can certainly say that this was the most...
0:43:36 > 0:43:40the toughest 28 and 3/4 hours I ever did with anybody.
0:43:40 > 0:43:45It's also a tribute to your great variety of skills as an interviewer,
0:43:45 > 0:43:49not least in your capacity to stay silent for the appropriate moment,
0:43:49 > 0:43:54and this is the climactic moment when you stay silent.
0:43:56 > 0:44:00'I just can't stand seeing somebody else cry,'
0:44:00 > 0:44:02and that ended it for me...
0:44:04 > 0:44:08..and I just, well, I must say, I sort of cracked up,
0:44:08 > 0:44:10started to cry,
0:44:10 > 0:44:13pushed my chair back,
0:44:13 > 0:44:16and then I blurted it out...
0:44:16 > 0:44:20And I said, "I'm sorry...
0:44:20 > 0:44:23"I just hope I haven't let you down."
0:44:25 > 0:44:29Well, when I said, "I just hope I haven't let you down,"
0:44:29 > 0:44:32'that said it all, I had.'
0:44:32 > 0:44:35I let down my friends...
0:44:35 > 0:44:38I let down...
0:44:40 > 0:44:41..the country.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46What did that moment feel like?
0:44:48 > 0:44:50Extraordinary,
0:44:50 > 0:44:55and one was not numb, but not numb at all,
0:44:57 > 0:45:01but the impact of it was, well, as you mentioned just now,
0:45:01 > 0:45:07it was very easy to stay silent when listening to that.
0:45:07 > 0:45:09David Frost, thank you.
0:45:09 > 0:45:10Thank you.
0:45:37 > 0:45:41It was on the night of June 17th 1972
0:45:41 > 0:45:44that five men were arrested breaking into
0:45:44 > 0:45:48the Democratic National Committee Headquarters in Washington, DC.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51It turned out later that the break-in had involved such key Nixon supporters
0:45:51 > 0:45:54as Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy,
0:45:54 > 0:45:57and had been planned by the President's own re-election committee
0:45:57 > 0:46:00headed by former Attorney General John Mitchell
0:46:00 > 0:46:03and his assistant Jeb Magruder.
0:46:03 > 0:46:06Bob Haldeman, the President's Chief of Staff,
0:46:06 > 0:46:09was with Mr Nixon in Florida when the break-in occurred.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12They returned to the White House on June 19th
0:46:12 > 0:46:16and they met on a number of occasions during the next few days.
0:46:16 > 0:46:20Two meetings are regarded as key.
0:46:20 > 0:46:25The first occurred on the morning of June 20th and included a discussion of Watergate.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28A White House tape of that discussion
0:46:28 > 0:46:33was later found to have been erased, the famous 18.5 minute gap.
0:46:33 > 0:46:37The President met again with Haldeman on June 23.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40In that conversation, Mr Nixon is told that the FBI
0:46:40 > 0:46:46is moving into problem areas in its Watergate probe.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49Haldeman suggests, and Nixon agrees, that the CIA be instructed
0:46:49 > 0:46:55to ask the FBI not to proceed any further with its investigation of the burglary.
0:46:56 > 0:47:01Mr President, to try and review your account of Watergate
0:47:01 > 0:47:04in one programme is a daunting task,
0:47:04 > 0:47:08but we'll press, first of all, through the sort of factual record
0:47:08 > 0:47:09and the sequence of events
0:47:09 > 0:47:12as concisely as we can to begin with.
0:47:12 > 0:47:16Um... But just one brief preliminary question...
0:47:18 > 0:47:23Reviewing now your conduct over the whole of the Watergate period,
0:47:23 > 0:47:28with the additional perspective now, three years out of office and so on,
0:47:28 > 0:47:31do you feel that you ever obstructed justice
0:47:31 > 0:47:35or were part of a conspiracy to obstruct justice?
0:47:36 > 0:47:38Well, in answer to that question,
0:47:38 > 0:47:42I think that the best procedure would be for us to do
0:47:42 > 0:47:45exactly what you're going to do in this programme,
0:47:45 > 0:47:52to go through the whole record in which I will say what I did,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55what my motives were,
0:47:55 > 0:48:01and then I will give you my evaluation
0:48:01 > 0:48:05as to whether those actions...
0:48:05 > 0:48:09or anything I said, for that matter,
0:48:09 > 0:48:15amounted to what you have called an obstruction of justice.
0:48:15 > 0:48:17I will express an opinion on it,
0:48:17 > 0:48:22but I think what we should do is to go over it, the whole matter,
0:48:22 > 0:48:25so that our viewers will have an opportunity
0:48:25 > 0:48:27to know what we are talking about,
0:48:27 > 0:48:33so that in effect they, as they listen,
0:48:33 > 0:48:37will be able to hear the facts and make up their own minds.
0:48:37 > 0:48:41I'll express my own opinion, they may have a different opinion,
0:48:41 > 0:48:43YOU may have a different opinion.
0:48:43 > 0:48:45But that is really the best way to do it,
0:48:45 > 0:48:49rather than to preclude it in advance and maybe prejudice their viewpoint.
0:48:49 > 0:48:55I am very happy to do that, because I think the only way, really, to examine all these events
0:48:55 > 0:49:00is on a blow-by-blow account of what occurred.
0:49:02 > 0:49:04So, beginning with June 20 then,
0:49:04 > 0:49:10what did Haldeman tell you during the 18.5 minute gap?
0:49:12 > 0:49:15Haldeman's notes are the only recollection
0:49:15 > 0:49:17I have of what he told me.
0:49:17 > 0:49:20Haldeman was a very good note-taker,
0:49:20 > 0:49:24because, of course, we've had other opportunities to look at his notes,
0:49:24 > 0:49:27and he... He was making the notes for my presidential files.
0:49:27 > 0:49:28The notes indicated...
0:49:28 > 0:49:30PR offensive and blah, blah, blah.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32That's right. Well, of course.
0:49:32 > 0:49:35- Diversion. - Well, you've asked me what it was,
0:49:35 > 0:49:39my recollection was that the notes... Check the EOB
0:49:39 > 0:49:43to see whether or not it's bugged. Obviously, I was concerned about
0:49:43 > 0:49:46whether or not the other side was bugging us.
0:49:46 > 0:49:50I went on to say, let's get a public relations offensive
0:49:50 > 0:49:55on what the other side is doing in this area and so forth,
0:49:55 > 0:49:59and, in effect, don't allow...
0:49:59 > 0:50:04the...democratic opposition...
0:50:04 > 0:50:11build this up into...basically, blow it up into a big, political issue,
0:50:11 > 0:50:13those were the concerns expressed.
0:50:13 > 0:50:17And I have no recollection of the conversation except that.
0:50:17 > 0:50:22But as far as your general state of knowledge, that evening,
0:50:22 > 0:50:29when you were talking with Chuck Colson on the evening of June 20th,
0:50:29 > 0:50:31it suggests that from somewhere,
0:50:31 > 0:50:34your knowledge has gone much further.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37You say, "If we didn't know better,
0:50:37 > 0:50:40"we'd have thought the whole thing had been deliberately botched".
0:50:40 > 0:50:45Colson tells you, "Bob is pulling it all together,
0:50:45 > 0:50:51"thus far, I think we've done the right things to date",
0:50:51 > 0:50:57and he says, "Basically, they're all pretty hard line guys",
0:50:57 > 0:50:59and you say, "You mean Hunt?"
0:50:59 > 0:51:04And you say, "Of course, we're just going to leave this where it is with the Cubans,
0:51:04 > 0:51:08"at times I just stonewall it". And you also say,
0:51:08 > 0:51:13"We've got to have lawyers smart enough to have our people delay."
0:51:13 > 0:51:19Now, somewhere, you were pretty well informed by that conversation on June 20th.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22As far as my information on June 20th is concerned,
0:51:22 > 0:51:29I had been informed with regard to...
0:51:29 > 0:51:34the possibility of Hunt's involvement,
0:51:34 > 0:51:37whether I knew on the 20th or the 21st or 22nd, I knew...
0:51:37 > 0:51:42I learned in that period about the possibility of Liddy's involvement.
0:51:42 > 0:51:44Of course I knew about the Cubans and McCord,
0:51:44 > 0:51:48who were all picked up at the scene of the crime.
0:51:48 > 0:51:54Now, you have read, here, excerpts out of a conversation with Colson,
0:51:54 > 0:51:58and let me say, as far as what my motive was concerned -
0:51:58 > 0:52:00and that's the important thing -
0:52:00 > 0:52:04my motive was in everything I was saying,
0:52:04 > 0:52:08or certainly thinking at the time,
0:52:08 > 0:52:15was not to try to cover up...
0:52:15 > 0:52:17a criminal action,
0:52:17 > 0:52:21but to be sure...
0:52:21 > 0:52:26that as far as any...
0:52:26 > 0:52:27slipover,
0:52:27 > 0:52:31or should I say "slopover", I think would be a better word,
0:52:31 > 0:52:37any slopover in a way that would damage innocent people
0:52:37 > 0:52:40or blow it into political proportions,
0:52:40 > 0:52:43it was that that I certainly wanted to avoid.
0:52:43 > 0:52:47So you invented the CIA thing on the 23rd as a cover?
0:52:47 > 0:52:53No, now, let's use the word "cover-up", though,
0:52:53 > 0:52:57in the sense that it should be used and should not be used.
0:53:00 > 0:53:05If a cover-up is for the purpose of covering up criminal activities,
0:53:05 > 0:53:07it is illegal.
0:53:07 > 0:53:11If, however, a cover-up, as you have called it,
0:53:11 > 0:53:17is for a motive that is not criminal,
0:53:17 > 0:53:20that is something else again.
0:53:20 > 0:53:22And my motive was not criminal.
0:53:22 > 0:53:25I didn't believe that we were covering any criminal activities.
0:53:25 > 0:53:29I didn't believe that John Mitchell was involved.
0:53:29 > 0:53:35I didn't believe that, for that matter, anybody else was.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38I was trying to contain it politically,
0:53:38 > 0:53:41and that's a very different motive
0:53:41 > 0:53:46from the motive of attempting to cover up
0:53:46 > 0:53:49criminal activities of an individual.
0:53:49 > 0:53:52And so there was no cover-up of any criminal activities,
0:53:52 > 0:53:54that was not my motive.
0:53:54 > 0:53:56But surely in all you've just said,
0:53:56 > 0:53:59you have proved exactly that that was the case,
0:53:59 > 0:54:02that there was a cover-up of criminal activity.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05Because you've already said, and the record shows,
0:54:05 > 0:54:09that you knew that Hunt and Liddy were involved.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12You'd been told that Hunt and Liddy were involved.
0:54:12 > 0:54:18At the moment when you told the CIA to tell the FBI to stop, period, as you put it,
0:54:18 > 0:54:22at that point only five people had been arrested,
0:54:22 > 0:54:24Liddy was not even under suspicion.
0:54:24 > 0:54:26And so you knew in terms of intent,
0:54:26 > 0:54:29and you knew in terms of foreseeable consequence,
0:54:29 > 0:54:34that the result would be that in fact, criminals would be protected.
0:54:34 > 0:54:38Hunt and Liddy, who were criminally liable, would be protected.
0:54:38 > 0:54:43You knew about them. The whole statement says that we were going...
0:54:43 > 0:54:46Haldeman says, "We don't want you to go any further on it,
0:54:46 > 0:54:50"get them to stop, they don't need to pursue it, they've already got their case."
0:54:50 > 0:54:55Walters notes that he said, "Five suspects had been arrested, this should be sufficient."
0:54:55 > 0:54:59You said, "Tell them don't go any further into this case, period."
0:54:59 > 0:55:02By definition, by what you've said and by what the record shows,
0:55:02 > 0:55:06that per se was a conspiracy to obstruct justice
0:55:06 > 0:55:09because you were limiting it to five people when,
0:55:09 > 0:55:13even if we grant the point that you weren't sure about Mitchell,
0:55:13 > 0:55:17you already knew about Hunt and Liddy and had talked about both.
0:55:17 > 0:55:20- So, that is obstruction of justice. - No, just a moment...- Period.
0:55:20 > 0:55:22That's your conclusion.
0:55:22 > 0:55:24- It is. - But now let's look at the facts.
0:55:24 > 0:55:28The facts is that as far as Liddy was concerned,
0:55:28 > 0:55:33what I knew was only...
0:55:33 > 0:55:38the fact that he was the man on the committee,
0:55:38 > 0:55:42who was in charge of intelligence operations.
0:55:42 > 0:55:44As far as Hunt was concerned,
0:55:44 > 0:55:48and if you read that tape, you will find
0:55:48 > 0:55:52I told them to tell the FBI -
0:55:52 > 0:55:58they didn't know apparently - and the CIA, that Hunt was involved.
0:55:58 > 0:56:04And so there wasn't any attempt to keep them from knowing
0:56:04 > 0:56:05that Hunt was involved.
0:56:05 > 0:56:08The other important point to bear in mind
0:56:08 > 0:56:10when you ask what happened and so forth
0:56:10 > 0:56:12is that what happened two weeks later.
0:56:12 > 0:56:18Two weeks later, when I was here in San Clemente,
0:56:18 > 0:56:22I called Pat Grey, the then FBI director,
0:56:22 > 0:56:25on the phone to congratulate the FBI
0:56:25 > 0:56:30on a very successful operation they had in apprehending some hijackers
0:56:30 > 0:56:32in San Francisco or some place abroad.
0:56:32 > 0:56:37He then brought up the subject of the Watergate investigation.
0:56:37 > 0:56:42He said that there are some people around you
0:56:42 > 0:56:45who are mortally wounding you,
0:56:45 > 0:56:46or might mortally wound you,
0:56:46 > 0:56:49because they're trying to restrict this investigation.
0:56:49 > 0:56:53And I said, "Well, have you talked to Walters about this matter?"
0:56:53 > 0:56:56And I said, "Yes." I said, "Does he agree?"
0:56:56 > 0:57:00He said, "Yes." I said, "Well, Pat..."
0:57:00 > 0:57:03I had known him very well, of course, from over the years,
0:57:03 > 0:57:06I did call him by his first name.
0:57:06 > 0:57:10I said, "Pat, you go right ahead with your investigation."
0:57:10 > 0:57:15He has so testified, and he did go ahead with the investigation.
0:57:15 > 0:57:18Yes, but the point is that obstruction of justice
0:57:18 > 0:57:21is obstruction of justice if it's for a minute or five minutes,
0:57:21 > 0:57:24much less for the period June 23rd to July 5th,
0:57:24 > 0:57:27when I think was when he talked to Walters and decided to go ahead,
0:57:27 > 0:57:29the day before he spoke to you on July 6th.
0:57:29 > 0:57:34It's obstruction of justice for however long a period, isn't it?
0:57:34 > 0:57:37And also, it's no defence to say that the plan failed,
0:57:37 > 0:57:40that the CIA didn't go along with it,
0:57:40 > 0:57:43refused to go along with it, said it was transparent.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46I mean, if I try and rob a bank and fail, that's no defence.
0:57:46 > 0:57:48I still tried to rob a bank.
0:57:48 > 0:57:52I would say you still tried to obstruct justice and succeeded for that period.
0:57:52 > 0:57:56- He's testified.- Now, that's... - They didn't interview Agario, didn't do all of this.
0:57:56 > 0:57:59And so I would have said it was a successful attempt
0:57:59 > 0:58:01to obstruct justice for that brief period.
0:58:01 > 0:58:04Now, just a moment. You're again making the case,
0:58:04 > 0:58:07which, of course, is your responsibility
0:58:07 > 0:58:09as the attorney for the prosecution.
0:58:09 > 0:58:12Let me make the case as it should be made,
0:58:12 > 0:58:17even if I were not the one who was involved, for the defence.
0:58:17 > 0:58:20The case for the defence here is this.
0:58:20 > 0:58:23You use the term obstruction of justice.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26You perhaps have not read the statute with regard to...
0:58:26 > 0:58:30respect, er, er... obstruction of justice.
0:58:30 > 0:58:33- Well, I have.- Obstruction... Oh, I'm sorry,
0:58:33 > 0:58:35of course you probably have read it,
0:58:35 > 0:58:38but possibly you might have missed it,
0:58:38 > 0:58:42because when I read it many years ago in...
0:58:44 > 0:58:46..perhaps when I was studying law,
0:58:46 > 0:58:48although the statute didn't even exist then
0:58:48 > 0:58:51because it's a relatively new statute, as you know.
0:58:51 > 0:58:55Er...but in any event, when I read it even in recent times,
0:58:55 > 0:58:59I was not familiar with all of the implications of it.
0:58:59 > 0:59:03The statute doesn't require just an act,
0:59:03 > 0:59:08the statute has the specific provision,
0:59:08 > 0:59:11one must corruptly...
0:59:13 > 0:59:16..impede a judicial...
0:59:16 > 0:59:19Well, a corrupt endeavour is enough.
0:59:19 > 0:59:23A corr... All right, must...conduct an endeavour.
0:59:23 > 0:59:27Corrupt intent, but it must be corrupt,
0:59:27 > 0:59:30and that gets to the point of motive.
0:59:30 > 0:59:33One must have a corrupt motive.
0:59:33 > 0:59:36Now, I did not have a corrupt motive.
0:59:36 > 0:59:40- You were...- My motive was pure political containment,
0:59:40 > 0:59:43and political containment is not a corrupt motive.
0:59:43 > 0:59:46- But...- If so, for example, President Truman would have been impeached.
0:59:46 > 0:59:48Yeah, but the point is that...
0:59:48 > 0:59:51Motive can be helpful when intent is not clear.
0:59:51 > 0:59:54Your intent is absolutely clear, it's stated again,
0:59:54 > 0:59:57stop this investigation here, period.
0:59:57 > 1:00:01The foreseeable, inevitable consequence if you'd been successful
1:00:01 > 1:00:05would have been that Hunt and Liddy would not have been brought to justice.
1:00:05 > 1:00:10How can that not be a conspiracy to obstruct justice?
1:00:10 > 1:00:12No, wait a minute, stop the...
1:00:12 > 1:00:14You would have protected Hunt and Liddy from guilt.
1:00:14 > 1:00:18Stop the investigation. Er...
1:00:18 > 1:00:24You still have to get back to the point that I have made previously,
1:00:24 > 1:00:30that my concern there, which was conveyed to them,
1:00:30 > 1:00:33and the decision then was in their hands,
1:00:33 > 1:00:36my concern was having the investigation
1:00:36 > 1:00:39spread further than it needed to.
1:00:39 > 1:00:42- Well, spread... - And as far as that was concerned
1:00:42 > 1:00:45I don't believe...
1:00:45 > 1:00:49As I said, we turned over the fact that we knew that Hunt was involved,
1:00:49 > 1:00:53the possibility that Liddy was involved,
1:00:53 > 1:00:55but under the circumstances...
1:00:55 > 1:00:58- You didn't turn that over. - What?- You didn't turn that over.
1:00:58 > 1:01:01- No, no, we turned over the fact that Hunt... - You never told anyone about Liddy.
1:01:01 > 1:01:03No, not at that point.
1:01:03 > 1:01:09Now, after the Gray... after the Gray conversation,
1:01:09 > 1:01:12the cover-up went on.
1:01:12 > 1:01:16You would say, I think, that you were not aware of it.
1:01:16 > 1:01:19I, I think, was arguing that you were a part of it
1:01:19 > 1:01:22as a result of the June 23rd conversations,
1:01:22 > 1:01:24but you would say that you were...
1:01:24 > 1:01:28I was a part of it as a result of the June 23rd conversations?
1:01:28 > 1:01:31- Yes.- After July 6th when I talked to Gray?
1:01:31 > 1:01:35I would have said that you joined a conspiracy which you therefore never left.
1:01:35 > 1:01:37No. Well, then, we totally disagree on that.
1:01:37 > 1:01:40But I mean, those are the two positions.
1:01:40 > 1:01:42Now, you, in fact, however, would say
1:01:42 > 1:01:47that you first learned of the cover-up on March 21st.
1:01:47 > 1:01:48Is that right?
1:01:51 > 1:01:55On March 21st was the date when I was first informed
1:01:55 > 1:02:01of the fact, the important fact to me in that conversation,
1:02:01 > 1:02:06was of the blackmail threat that was being made by Howard Hunt
1:02:06 > 1:02:10who was one of the Watergate participants,
1:02:10 > 1:02:13but not about Watergate.
1:02:13 > 1:02:18So, during the period between those two dates,
1:02:18 > 1:02:23between the end of June, beginning of July and March 21st,
1:02:23 > 1:02:28while lots of elements of the cover-up as we now know were continuing,
1:02:28 > 1:02:32were you ever made aware of any of them?
1:02:32 > 1:02:35No, I don't know what you're referring to.
1:02:35 > 1:02:40Well, for instance, your personal lawyer, Herbert Kalmbach,
1:02:40 > 1:02:47coming to Washington to start the raising of 219,000 of hush money,
1:02:47 > 1:02:49approved by Haldeman and Ehrlichman,
1:02:49 > 1:02:52they went ahead without clearing it with you?
1:02:52 > 1:02:55That was one of the statements that I've made,
1:02:55 > 1:03:00which after all the checking we can possibly do,
1:03:00 > 1:03:04and we checked with Haldeman, we checked with Ehrlichman...
1:03:04 > 1:03:06I wondered, for example, if I had been informed,
1:03:06 > 1:03:09if I had been informed that money was being raised
1:03:09 > 1:03:12for humanitarian purposes to help these people with their defence,
1:03:12 > 1:03:14I would certainly have approved it.
1:03:14 > 1:03:17If I had been told that the purpose of the money was to raise it
1:03:17 > 1:03:19for the purpose of keeping them quiet,
1:03:19 > 1:03:21- I would have been disapproving. - But...
1:03:21 > 1:03:27The truth of the matter is that I was not told.
1:03:27 > 1:03:29I did not learn of it until the March period.
1:03:29 > 1:03:33But in that case, if that was the first occasion,
1:03:33 > 1:03:39why did you say in, um... such strong terms
1:03:39 > 1:03:43to Colson on February 14th,
1:03:43 > 1:03:46which is more than a month before,
1:03:46 > 1:03:49you said to him, "The cover-up is the main ingredients.
1:03:49 > 1:03:53"That's where we've got to cut our losses, my losses are to be cut,
1:03:53 > 1:03:57"the President's loss has got to be cut on the cover-up deal.
1:03:59 > 1:04:02- Why did I say that? - February 14th.
1:04:02 > 1:04:04Because I read the American papers.
1:04:04 > 1:04:08And in January, the stories that came up,
1:04:08 > 1:04:11not just from The Washington Post,
1:04:11 > 1:04:16the famous series by some unnamed correspondents
1:04:16 > 1:04:19who have written a best-selling book since then.
1:04:19 > 1:04:23But The New York Times, the networks and so forth
1:04:23 > 1:04:25were talking about hush money.
1:04:25 > 1:04:31They were talking about clemency for cover-up and all the rest.
1:04:31 > 1:04:34It was that that I was referring to at that point.
1:04:34 > 1:04:38I was referring to the fact that there was a lot of talk about cover-up,
1:04:38 > 1:04:41and that this must be avoided at all cost.
1:04:41 > 1:04:46But there's one very clear self-contained quote,
1:04:46 > 1:04:49and I read the whole of this conversation of February 13th
1:04:49 > 1:04:52which I don't think has ever been published.
1:04:52 > 1:04:56And there was one very clear quote in it that I thought was...
1:04:56 > 1:04:57It hasn't been published, you say?
1:04:57 > 1:05:01I think it's available to anybody who consults the records, but...
1:05:01 > 1:05:04- Oh, I see.- But people don't consult all the records necessarily.
1:05:04 > 1:05:08- I just wondered if we'd seen it. - Well, I'm sure you have, yes.
1:05:08 > 1:05:12Where the President says this on February 13th.
1:05:12 > 1:05:16"When I'm speaking about..." This is to Colson.
1:05:16 > 1:05:19"When I'm speaking about Watergate,
1:05:19 > 1:05:22"though that's the whole point of the election,
1:05:22 > 1:05:26"this tremendous investigation rests...
1:05:26 > 1:05:31"unless one of the seven begins to talk.
1:05:31 > 1:05:33"That's the problem."
1:05:33 > 1:05:36Now, in that remark, it seems to me
1:05:36 > 1:05:38that someone running the cover-up
1:05:38 > 1:05:41couldn't have expressed it more clearly than that, could they?
1:05:43 > 1:05:47What do we mean by, "One of the seven beginning to talk"?
1:05:47 > 1:05:49How many times do I have to tell you
1:05:49 > 1:05:52that as far as these seven were concerned,
1:05:52 > 1:05:58the concern...that we had,
1:05:58 > 1:06:00certainly that I had,
1:06:00 > 1:06:08was that men who worked in this kind of covert activity,
1:06:08 > 1:06:14men who, of course, realise it's a dangerous activity to work in,
1:06:14 > 1:06:17particularly since it involves illegal entry,
1:06:17 > 1:06:23that once they're apprehended, they are likely to say anything.
1:06:23 > 1:06:28And the question was, I didn't know of anybody at that point,
1:06:28 > 1:06:30nobody on the White House staff,
1:06:30 > 1:06:32not John Mitchell, anybody else,
1:06:32 > 1:06:40that I believed was involved, criminally.
1:06:40 > 1:06:43But on the other hand,
1:06:43 > 1:06:47I certainly could believe that a man like Howard Hunt,
1:06:47 > 1:06:50who was a prolific book writer,
1:06:50 > 1:06:54or any one of the others, under the pressures of the moment,
1:06:54 > 1:06:57could have started blowing
1:06:57 > 1:07:02and putting out all sorts of stories to embarrass the administration.
1:07:02 > 1:07:05And as it later turned out, in Hunt's case,
1:07:05 > 1:07:09to blackmail the President to provide clemency,
1:07:09 > 1:07:12or to provide money, or both.
1:07:13 > 1:07:18I still just think, though, that one has to, uh...
1:07:18 > 1:07:22go contrary to the normal usage of language
1:07:22 > 1:07:27of almost 10,000 gangster movies,
1:07:27 > 1:07:32to interpret, "This tremendous investigation rests
1:07:32 > 1:07:35"unless one of the seven begins to talk,
1:07:35 > 1:07:37"that's the problem,"
1:07:37 > 1:07:40as anything other than some sort of conspiracy
1:07:40 > 1:07:43to stop him talking about something damaging to the person speaking.
1:07:43 > 1:07:47Well, you can state your conclusion and I've stated my view.
1:07:47 > 1:07:49- That's true.- So, now we go on with the rest of it.
1:07:49 > 1:07:54What President Nixon knew of the cover-up before March 21st
1:07:54 > 1:07:58is disputed, but there is no dispute that on March 21st
1:07:58 > 1:08:00John Dean did lay out
1:08:00 > 1:08:03many of the key elements of the cover-up for the President.
1:08:03 > 1:08:05Dean recited the history of the break-in
1:08:05 > 1:08:09and listed the criminal liability of top presidential aides
1:08:09 > 1:08:12like Haldeman and Ehrlichman and Dean himself
1:08:12 > 1:08:15for actions which followed the burglary.
1:08:15 > 1:08:19Dean told the President that hundreds of thousands of dollars had been paid
1:08:19 > 1:08:23to keep the Watergate burglars silent through their January trial.
1:08:23 > 1:08:27He said further that with sentencing only two days away,
1:08:27 > 1:08:32Howard Hunt was now demanding a payment of 120,000
1:08:32 > 1:08:33for continued silence,
1:08:33 > 1:08:36and Dean suggested that the price tag for blackmail
1:08:36 > 1:08:39could total 1 million.
1:08:39 > 1:08:44The period following the meeting on March 21st up to April 30th,
1:08:44 > 1:08:48when Haldeman and Ehrlichman, resigned is crucial.
1:08:48 > 1:08:53The President would later claim that he'd worked to get the truth out during this period.
1:08:53 > 1:08:57His critics would claim that he continued to cover it up.
1:08:57 > 1:08:59Looking back on the record now
1:08:59 > 1:09:03of that conversation, as I'm sure you've done,
1:09:03 > 1:09:07in addition to the overall details which we'll come to in a minute,
1:09:07 > 1:09:11bearing in mind that a payment probably was set in motion
1:09:11 > 1:09:15prior to the meeting and was certainly not completed
1:09:15 > 1:09:18until late the evening of the meeting,
1:09:18 > 1:09:22um...wouldn't you say that the record of the meeting
1:09:22 > 1:09:27does show that you endorsed or ratified what was going on
1:09:27 > 1:09:30with regard to the payment to Hunt?
1:09:31 > 1:09:34No, the record doesn't show that at all.
1:09:34 > 1:09:39In fact, the record, actually, is ambiguous, er...
1:09:42 > 1:09:45..until you get to the end, and then it's quite clear.
1:09:45 > 1:09:50And what I said...later in the day,
1:09:50 > 1:09:53and what I said the following day,
1:09:53 > 1:09:59shows what the facts really are
1:09:59 > 1:10:04and completely contradicts the fact...the point that has been made.
1:10:04 > 1:10:07And again, here's a case where Mr Jaworski in his book
1:10:07 > 1:10:11conveniently overlooks what actually was done,
1:10:11 > 1:10:16and what I did say the following day, as well as...
1:10:18 > 1:10:21..other aspects of it.
1:10:21 > 1:10:25Let me say I did consider the payment of 120,000
1:10:25 > 1:10:29to Hunt's lawyer and to Hunt,
1:10:29 > 1:10:33for his attorney's fees and for support.
1:10:33 > 1:10:38I considered it not because Hunt was going to blow,
1:10:38 > 1:10:43using our gangster language here, on Watergate.
1:10:43 > 1:10:46But, because as the record clearly shows Dean says,
1:10:46 > 1:10:50it isn't about Watergate but it's going to talk about
1:10:50 > 1:10:53some of the things he's done for Ehrlichman.
1:10:53 > 1:10:56As far as the payment of the money was concerned,
1:10:56 > 1:11:00when the total record is read,
1:11:00 > 1:11:07you will find that it seems to end on a basis which is indecisive,
1:11:07 > 1:11:12but I clearly remember, and you undoubtedly have it in your notes,
1:11:12 > 1:11:18my saying that the White House can't do it, I think was my last words,
1:11:18 > 1:11:23- because I had gone through the whole scenario with the...- But...
1:11:23 > 1:11:26I laid it out, I said, "Look, what would it co...
1:11:26 > 1:11:29"I mean, when you're talking about all of these people,
1:11:29 > 1:11:31"what would it cost to take care of it for..."
1:11:31 > 1:11:35- Well, no, I mean, I...- They talked about a million dollars,
1:11:35 > 1:11:37and I said, "You could raise the money,
1:11:37 > 1:11:42"but doesn't it finally get down to a question of clemency?"
1:11:42 > 1:11:48And he said, "Yes." I said, "Well, you can't provide clemency,
1:11:48 > 1:11:50"and that would be wrong, for sure."
1:11:50 > 1:11:53Now, if clemency is the bottom line,
1:11:53 > 1:11:56then providing the money isn't going to make any sense.
1:11:56 > 1:11:58But when we talk about the money,
1:11:58 > 1:12:03the 120,000 demand that in fact he got 75,000 of that evening,
1:12:03 > 1:12:09bearing in mind what you were saying earlier about reading that,
1:12:09 > 1:12:11the overall context to the conversation,
1:12:11 > 1:12:16is there any doubt when one reads,
1:12:16 > 1:12:19reading the whole conversation...
1:12:19 > 1:12:24One, you could get a million dollars and you could get it in cash, I know where it could be gotten.
1:12:24 > 1:12:28Two, your major guy to keep under control is Hunt.
1:12:28 > 1:12:32Three, don't you have to handle Hunt's financial situation?
1:12:32 > 1:12:34Four, let me put it frankly,
1:12:34 > 1:12:37I wonder if that doesn't have to be continued.
1:12:37 > 1:12:41Five, get the million bucks, it would seem to me that would be worthwhile.
1:12:41 > 1:12:44Six, don't you agree that you'd better get the Hunt thing?
1:12:44 > 1:12:48Seven, that's worth it and that's buying time on.
1:12:48 > 1:12:52Eight, we should buy the time on that, as I pointed out to John.
1:12:52 > 1:12:55Nine, Hunt has at least got to know this before he's sentenced.
1:12:55 > 1:12:59Ten, first you've got the Hunt problem, that ought to be handled.
1:12:59 > 1:13:0411, the money can be provided, Mitchell could provide the way to deliver it, see what I mean?
1:13:04 > 1:13:0712, but let's come back to the money,
1:13:07 > 1:13:12they were off on something else here, bored to death with the continual references to money.
1:13:12 > 1:13:14A million dollars and so forth and so on,
1:13:14 > 1:13:16let me say that I think you could get that in cash.
1:13:16 > 1:13:1813, that's why your immediate thing,
1:13:18 > 1:13:22you've got no choice with Hunt but the 120 or whatever it is, right?
1:13:22 > 1:13:2514, would you agree that this is a buy time thing?
1:13:25 > 1:13:28You'd better damned well get that done but fast.
1:13:28 > 1:13:3015, who's going to talk to him? Colson?
1:13:30 > 1:13:3316, we have no choice, and so on.
1:13:33 > 1:13:36- Now, reading as you've requested the thing...- Yes, all right, fine.
1:13:36 > 1:13:39Let me just stop you right there. Right there.
1:13:39 > 1:13:41You're doing something here which I am not doing,
1:13:41 > 1:13:44and I will not do throughout these broadcasts.
1:13:44 > 1:13:48You have every right to. You are reading there out of context,
1:13:48 > 1:13:52out of order, because I have read this
1:13:52 > 1:13:54- and I know it better than you do. - I'm sure.
1:13:54 > 1:13:57I should know it better because I was there.
1:13:57 > 1:14:00It's no reflection on you, you know it better than anybody else I know,
1:14:00 > 1:14:03and you're doing it very well.
1:14:03 > 1:14:06But I am not going to sit here and read the thing back to you.
1:14:06 > 1:14:08I could have notes here. As you know, I participated
1:14:08 > 1:14:12on all of these broadcasts without a note in front of me.
1:14:12 > 1:14:15I've done it all from recollection. I may have made some mistakes.
1:14:15 > 1:14:19You certainly have seen it and I agree, but it's your life we're talking about.
1:14:19 > 1:14:23In this instance, the very last thing you read,
1:14:23 > 1:14:26do you ever have any choice with Hunt?
1:14:28 > 1:14:30Why didn't you read the next sentence?
1:14:30 > 1:14:32- Why did you leave it off? - Carry it on.
1:14:32 > 1:14:36No, no, the reason... The next sentence says,
1:14:36 > 1:14:39because I remember that so well,
1:14:39 > 1:14:42but you never have a choice with Hunt.
1:14:42 > 1:14:45Do you ever have one rhetorically?
1:14:45 > 1:14:47You never have a choice with Hunt,
1:14:47 > 1:14:52because when you finally come down to it, it gets down to clemency.
1:14:53 > 1:14:58Now, why, after all of that horror story, and it was...
1:14:58 > 1:15:01I mean, even considering that must horrify people.
1:15:01 > 1:15:03Why would you consider paying money to somebody
1:15:03 > 1:15:05who's blackmailing the White House?
1:15:05 > 1:15:07I've tried to give you my reasons.
1:15:07 > 1:15:09I was concerned about what he would do.
1:15:09 > 1:15:12But my point is, after that, why not?
1:15:12 > 1:15:18Why not you do what was not done by Mr Jaworski in his book,
1:15:18 > 1:15:20what was not done by Mr Jaworski
1:15:20 > 1:15:22before the Senate Judiciary Committee?
1:15:22 > 1:15:26Read the last sentence, the last sentence which says,
1:15:26 > 1:15:29"After that, you never have any choice with Hunt,"
1:15:29 > 1:15:32because it finally comes down to clemency,
1:15:32 > 1:15:35and I said six times in that conversation.
1:15:35 > 1:15:37You didn't read that in your ten things.
1:15:37 > 1:15:42Six times I said, "You can't provide clemency. It's wrong, for sure."
1:15:42 > 1:15:45I never said there that you did provide clemency.
1:15:45 > 1:15:49- Nor was I talking about the long-term... - But my point is...my point is...
1:15:49 > 1:15:50- Let me quote...- My point is...
1:15:50 > 1:15:54Let me quote to you... I've been through the record, I want to be totally fair,
1:15:54 > 1:15:58and let me read to you the last quote on the transcripts
1:15:58 > 1:16:00that I can find about this matter, then.
1:16:00 > 1:16:02- You said, "Why didn't I go?" to the last one?- Sure.
1:16:02 > 1:16:05I read 16 and I thought that was enough,
1:16:05 > 1:16:07but we could have read many more, no doubt.
1:16:07 > 1:16:10But the last thing in the transcripts
1:16:10 > 1:16:16I can find about this subject was you talking on April 20th,
1:16:16 > 1:16:18and you were recollecting this meeting
1:16:18 > 1:16:22and you said that you said to Dean and to Haldeman,
1:16:22 > 1:16:25"Christ, turn over any cash we got."
1:16:25 > 1:16:28That's YOUR recollection of the meeting,
1:16:28 > 1:16:31on April 20th, when you didn't know you were on television.
1:16:31 > 1:16:34Of course I didn't know I was on television.
1:16:34 > 1:16:37On April 20th, it could well have been my recollection.
1:16:37 > 1:16:39But my point is...
1:16:41 > 1:16:44..I wonder why, again,
1:16:44 > 1:16:47we haven't followed up with what happened after the meeting.
1:16:47 > 1:16:51Let me tell you what happened after the meeting.
1:16:51 > 1:16:54And you are, incidentally, very fair to point out,
1:16:54 > 1:16:57and the record clearly shows,
1:16:57 > 1:17:01that Dean did not follow up in any way on this.
1:17:02 > 1:17:04The payment that was made -
1:17:04 > 1:17:07Dean didn't know it, I didn't know it, nobody else knew it -
1:17:07 > 1:17:10apparently was being made contemporaneously that day
1:17:10 > 1:17:12through another source.
1:17:12 > 1:17:16But the next morning, Mitchell told Haldeman that it had been paid,
1:17:16 > 1:17:20and in a later transcript, you agree with Haldeman that he told you.
1:17:20 > 1:17:23You say, "Yes, you reported that to me."
1:17:23 > 1:17:24Yes. I understand.
1:17:24 > 1:17:27- Let me point...- You were very soon aware it had gone through.
1:17:27 > 1:17:30That's right, but my point is,
1:17:30 > 1:17:35the question we have is whether or not the payment was made...
1:17:36 > 1:17:39..as a result of a direction given by the President for that purpose.
1:17:41 > 1:17:43And the point is, it was not,
1:17:43 > 1:17:46and the point is that the next morning
1:17:46 > 1:17:49you talk about the conversation, and here again...
1:17:49 > 1:17:52You probably don't have it on your notes here,
1:17:52 > 1:17:57but on the 22nd, I raised the whole question of payments
1:17:57 > 1:18:00and I said... And I'm compressing it all
1:18:00 > 1:18:02so that we don't take too much of our time on this.
1:18:02 > 1:18:07..I said, as far as these fellows in jail are concerned,
1:18:07 > 1:18:10you can help them for humanitarian reasons,
1:18:10 > 1:18:12but you can't pay...
1:18:12 > 1:18:15but that Hunt thing goes too far.
1:18:15 > 1:18:18That's just damn blackmail.
1:18:18 > 1:18:22It would have been damn blackmail if Dean had done it.
1:18:22 > 1:18:24Now, that's in the record,
1:18:24 > 1:18:27and that's certainly an indication that it wasn't paid.
1:18:27 > 1:18:29But later on that day, at some point,
1:18:29 > 1:18:32according to your later words to Haldeman,
1:18:32 > 1:18:34you were told that it HAD been paid.
1:18:34 > 1:18:37That... I...I agree...
1:18:37 > 1:18:39that I was told that it had been paid.
1:18:39 > 1:18:42But what I am saying here
1:18:42 > 1:18:45is that the charge has been made that I directed it
1:18:45 > 1:18:48and that it was paid as a result of what I...
1:18:49 > 1:18:51..er...
1:18:51 > 1:18:53said at that meeting.
1:18:53 > 1:18:56That charge is not true
1:18:56 > 1:19:01and it's proved by the tapes, which in so many cases can be damaging -
1:19:01 > 1:19:02in this case, they're helping.
1:19:02 > 1:19:05There's two things to be said to that.
1:19:05 > 1:19:09One is, I think that the...the...
1:19:09 > 1:19:11My reading of the tapes tells me,
1:19:11 > 1:19:13trying to read it in an open-minded way,
1:19:13 > 1:19:18that...that the writing, not just between the lines
1:19:18 > 1:19:20but on so many of the lines, as I quoted,
1:19:20 > 1:19:22is very, very clear that you were, in fact,
1:19:22 > 1:19:25endorsing at least the short-term solution
1:19:25 > 1:19:27of paying this sum of money to buy time.
1:19:27 > 1:19:29That would be my reading of it.
1:19:29 > 1:19:33But the other point to be said is,
1:19:33 > 1:19:38here's Dean talking about this hush money for Hunt,
1:19:38 > 1:19:40- talking about blackmail...- Mm-hm.
1:19:40 > 1:19:43..and all of that, I would say that you endorsed or ratified it,
1:19:43 > 1:19:47- but let's leave that on one side... - I didn't endorse or ratify.
1:19:47 > 1:19:49Why didn't you stop it?
1:19:49 > 1:19:52Because at that point...
1:19:53 > 1:19:56..I had nothing...
1:19:57 > 1:20:01..to...no knowledge of the fact that it WAS going to be paid,
1:20:01 > 1:20:05I'd had no knowledge of the fact that...
1:20:05 > 1:20:09what you have mentioned in the transcript of the next day,
1:20:09 > 1:20:12where Mitchell said he thought it had been taken care of.
1:20:12 > 1:20:16I think that was what the words were, words to that affect.
1:20:16 > 1:20:18I wasn't there. I don't remember what he said.
1:20:18 > 1:20:21That was only reported to me.
1:20:21 > 1:20:23The point that I make is this.
1:20:23 > 1:20:26It's possible...
1:20:26 > 1:20:28it's a mistake that I didn't stop it.
1:20:28 > 1:20:31The point that I make is that I did consider it.
1:20:31 > 1:20:33I've told you that I considered it.
1:20:33 > 1:20:37I considered it for reasons that I thought were very good ones.
1:20:37 > 1:20:43I would not consider it for the other reasons
1:20:43 > 1:20:45which would have been, in my view, bad ones.
1:20:45 > 1:20:49But that night, though, the night of the 21st,
1:20:49 > 1:20:53I mean, in the conversation with Colson after you'd been exchanging dialogue
1:20:53 > 1:20:56about getting off the reservation and so on,
1:20:56 > 1:20:58Colson said to you something about the fact that
1:20:58 > 1:21:00it's the stuff AFTER the cover-up.
1:21:00 > 1:21:03"I don't care about the people involved in the cover-up,
1:21:03 > 1:21:05"it's the stuff after that's dangerous,
1:21:05 > 1:21:09"Dean and other things, and the things that have been done."
1:21:09 > 1:21:12And you said, as I'm sure you know,
1:21:12 > 1:21:14"You mean, with regard to the defendants.
1:21:14 > 1:21:18"Of course that was... That had to be done."
1:21:18 > 1:21:20Brackets, laughs, whatever that means.
1:21:20 > 1:21:24But, I mean, so that night you were saying that had to be done,
1:21:24 > 1:21:27you were realising that doing something for the defendants
1:21:27 > 1:21:29was a necessity?
1:21:29 > 1:21:32No, I don't interpret that that way at all,
1:21:32 > 1:21:35- I...I can't recall... - How do you interpret it?
1:21:35 > 1:21:37I can't recall that conversation
1:21:37 > 1:21:42and I can't vouch for the accuracy of the transcription on that,
1:21:42 > 1:21:44but I do say...
1:21:44 > 1:21:47It's an exhibit at the Watergate trial.
1:21:47 > 1:21:53The tapes that have been made public, on the 22nd,
1:21:53 > 1:21:54with regard to my...
1:21:54 > 1:21:57and the one on the 21st as well,
1:21:57 > 1:22:00with regard to the whole payments problem,
1:22:00 > 1:22:03I think are very clear with regard to my attitude.
1:22:03 > 1:22:06But on the short-term point, that was an exhibit
1:22:06 > 1:22:10and part of the basic file at the trial
1:22:10 > 1:22:12was that conversation, Colson saying,
1:22:12 > 1:22:14"It's the stuff after that's dangerous,"
1:22:14 > 1:22:17and you saying, "You mean, with regard to the defendants.
1:22:17 > 1:22:21"Of course that was... That had to be done." Brackets, laughs.
1:22:21 > 1:22:26- I mean, that's absolutely on the record and authenticated and played publicly.- Yes.
1:22:26 > 1:22:28Well, I can't interpret it at this time.
1:22:28 > 1:22:33One of the other things that people find...
1:22:33 > 1:22:36very difficult to take
1:22:36 > 1:22:39in the Oval Office, on March 21st,
1:22:39 > 1:22:45is the...is the coaching that you gave Dean and Haldeman
1:22:45 > 1:22:49on how to deal with a grand jury without getting caught
1:22:49 > 1:22:53and saying that perjury is a tough rap to prove, as you'd said earlier,
1:22:53 > 1:22:55just be damned sure you say,
1:22:55 > 1:22:57"I don't remember.
1:22:58 > 1:23:00"I can't recall".
1:23:02 > 1:23:06Is that the sort of conversation that ought to have been going on in the Oval Office?
1:23:07 > 1:23:15I think that kind of advice is proper advice for...one who,
1:23:15 > 1:23:17as I was at that time,
1:23:17 > 1:23:20beginning to put myself in the position
1:23:20 > 1:23:23of attorney for the defence,
1:23:23 > 1:23:24er...
1:23:24 > 1:23:27something that I wish I hadn't... had the...
1:23:27 > 1:23:31felt I had the responsibility to do.
1:23:31 > 1:23:35But I would like the opportunity, when the question arises,
1:23:35 > 1:23:38to tell you why I felt as deeply as I did on that point.
1:23:38 > 1:23:40Er...
1:23:40 > 1:23:42Every lawyer,
1:23:42 > 1:23:46when he talks to a witness who's going before a grand jury,
1:23:46 > 1:23:49says, "Be sure that you don't volunteer anything,
1:23:49 > 1:23:51"be sure if you have any question about anything,
1:23:51 > 1:23:56"say that you don't recollect, be sure that everything...
1:23:56 > 1:24:00"that you state only the facts that you're absolutely sure of".
1:24:00 > 1:24:02Now, on the other hand,
1:24:02 > 1:24:07I didn't tell them to say don't forget if you do remember.
1:24:07 > 1:24:09That then would be suborning perjury.
1:24:09 > 1:24:11- But the...- And I did not say that.
1:24:11 > 1:24:16One of the things you repeated many times,
1:24:16 > 1:24:19but I suppose most memorably,
1:24:19 > 1:24:21or most clearly, on...
1:24:21 > 1:24:26August...15th 1973, you said...
1:24:28 > 1:24:33.."If anyone at the White House or high up in my campaign
1:24:33 > 1:24:36"had been involved in wrongdoing of any kind,
1:24:36 > 1:24:41"I wanted the White House to take the lead in making that known.
1:24:41 > 1:24:47"On March 21st, I instructed Dean to write a complete report
1:24:47 > 1:24:52"of all that he knew on the entire Watergate matter."
1:24:52 > 1:24:56Now, when one looks through the record of what had gone on
1:24:56 > 1:25:00just before and after March 21st,
1:25:00 > 1:25:06on March 17th, the written statement from Dean,
1:25:06 > 1:25:10"You asked for a self-serving goddamned statement
1:25:10 > 1:25:13"denying culpability of principle figures,"
1:25:13 > 1:25:17when he told you that the original Liddy plan had involved bugging,
1:25:17 > 1:25:20you told him to omit that fact in his document
1:25:20 > 1:25:22and state it was for...
1:25:22 > 1:25:25the plan was for a totally legal intelligence operation.
1:25:25 > 1:25:27March 20th, as I'm sure you know, you said,
1:25:27 > 1:25:32you want a complete statement but make it very incomplete.
1:25:32 > 1:25:36On March 21st, after his revelations to you, you say,
1:25:36 > 1:25:40"Understand, I don't want to get all that goddamned specific,"
1:25:40 > 1:25:43and Ehrlichman and you when you're talking on the 22nd,
1:25:43 > 1:25:45and he's talking of the Dean report,
1:25:45 > 1:25:50he says, "And the report says nobody was involved,"
1:25:50 > 1:25:52and there's several other quotes to that effect.
1:25:52 > 1:25:57Was that...? The Dean report that you described,
1:25:57 > 1:26:00it wasn't the same as what you described on August 15th, was it?
1:26:00 > 1:26:02Well, what you're leaving out,
1:26:02 > 1:26:04which is in that same tape that you've just quoted from,
1:26:04 > 1:26:06is a very, very significant statement.
1:26:08 > 1:26:13I said that John Dean should make a report,
1:26:13 > 1:26:17and I said, "We've..." or, "We have to have a statement,"
1:26:17 > 1:26:19and then I went on to say,
1:26:19 > 1:26:23"and if it opens doors, let it open doors."
1:26:23 > 1:26:28- Now...- Now, with regard to the report being complete but incomplete,
1:26:28 > 1:26:31what I meant was this, very simply.
1:26:31 > 1:26:36I meant that he should state what he was sure of, what he knew,
1:26:36 > 1:26:39because one day, he would say one thing,
1:26:39 > 1:26:41another day, he'd say something else.
1:26:41 > 1:26:43I didn't want him to answer,
1:26:43 > 1:26:45and you'll find that also on one of the tapes.
1:26:45 > 1:26:49I said, "Don't go into every charge that has been made.
1:26:49 > 1:26:51"Go into only what you know."
1:26:51 > 1:26:55And particularly go in hard on the fact
1:26:55 > 1:27:00which he had consistently repeated over and over again -
1:27:00 > 1:27:03no-one in the White House is involved,
1:27:03 > 1:27:05that's what I wanted him to do.
1:27:05 > 1:27:06But then you have a discussion
1:27:06 > 1:27:09in the meeting with Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell and Dean
1:27:09 > 1:27:12where you're deciding what the policy's going to be.
1:27:12 > 1:27:16Is it going to be a hang-out, ie, is it going to be the whole of the truth,
1:27:16 > 1:27:19and in the end, it's decided that it's going to be -
1:27:19 > 1:27:21one of the great phrases of Watergate -
1:27:21 > 1:27:23"a modified, limited hang-out",
1:27:23 > 1:27:27which is why I suggest the other quotes that I've quoted to you are decisive.
1:27:27 > 1:27:29And then Ehrlichman goes on to say,
1:27:29 > 1:27:31"I'm looking at the future..."
1:27:31 > 1:27:34And now we already know it's a modified, limited hang-out,
1:27:34 > 1:27:37and you can't have a modified, limited version of the truth.
1:27:37 > 1:27:39It's not going to be the whole of the truth.
1:27:39 > 1:27:41"I am looking at the future,
1:27:41 > 1:27:45"assuming some corner of this thing comes unstuck at some time.
1:27:45 > 1:27:46"You..." That's you.
1:27:46 > 1:27:48"..are in a position to say,
1:27:48 > 1:27:52"'Look, that document I published is the document I relied on,
1:27:52 > 1:27:55"'that is the report I relied on.'"
1:27:55 > 1:27:58And you respond, "That's right."
1:27:58 > 1:28:01Now, you've decided the documents are going to be modified,
1:28:01 > 1:28:03it's going to be limited,
1:28:03 > 1:28:06and then you're going to rely on that document,
1:28:06 > 1:28:08and so you're going to be able to blame it on Dean,
1:28:08 > 1:28:10and it seems to me that that is consistent
1:28:10 > 1:28:13with all the quotes that I have quoted
1:28:13 > 1:28:16and not the one door quote that you've quoted.
1:28:16 > 1:28:20That's your opinion and I have my opinion.
1:28:20 > 1:28:24Dean was sent to write a report, he worked on it,
1:28:24 > 1:28:31and he certainly would have remembered a phrase that was,
1:28:31 > 1:28:33let me say,
1:28:33 > 1:28:38a lot more easy to understand than "modified hang-out",
1:28:38 > 1:28:40or whatever Ehrlichman said.
1:28:40 > 1:28:44He would have remembered, "If it opens doors, it opens doors."
1:28:44 > 1:28:50I meant by that I was prepared to hear the worst as well as the good.
1:28:50 > 1:28:57What I don't understand about... March 21st is that
1:28:57 > 1:29:02I still don't know why you didn't pick up the phone
1:29:02 > 1:29:05and tell the cops.
1:29:05 > 1:29:07I still don't know, when you found out
1:29:07 > 1:29:10about the things that Haldeman and Ehrlichman had done,
1:29:10 > 1:29:14that there is no evidence anywhere of a rebuke,
1:29:14 > 1:29:20but only of scenarios and excuses, et cetera.
1:29:20 > 1:29:24Nowhere do you say, "We must get this information
1:29:24 > 1:29:29"direct to whoever it is, the head of the justice department,
1:29:29 > 1:29:31"criminal investigation or whatever".
1:29:31 > 1:29:36And nowhere do you say to Haldeman and Ehrlichman,
1:29:36 > 1:29:37"This is disgraceful conduct".
1:29:37 > 1:29:40And Haldeman admits a lot of it the next day,
1:29:40 > 1:29:42so you're not relying on Dean.
1:29:42 > 1:29:43"You're fired".
1:29:44 > 1:29:51- Well, could I take my time now to...to address that question?- Mm.
1:29:51 > 1:29:54I think it will be very useful
1:29:54 > 1:29:57that you know what I was going through.
1:29:57 > 1:29:58Er...
1:29:58 > 1:30:00It wasn't a very easy time.
1:30:00 > 1:30:02Er...
1:30:03 > 1:30:07I think my daughter Trisha once said that...
1:30:08 > 1:30:09..er...
1:30:09 > 1:30:14there really wasn't a happy time...
1:30:14 > 1:30:17in the White House, except in a personal sense...
1:30:17 > 1:30:19er...
1:30:19 > 1:30:22after April 30th, when Haldeman and Ehrlichman left.
1:30:22 > 1:30:26You know, it's rather difficult to tell you,
1:30:26 > 1:30:29four years later, how you felt,
1:30:29 > 1:30:31but I think you'd like to know...
1:30:31 > 1:30:32something new.
1:30:36 > 1:30:37You see...
1:30:39 > 1:30:44..I had been through a very difficult period
1:30:44 > 1:30:48when President Eisenhower had the Adams problem.
1:30:50 > 1:30:54And I'll never forget the agony he went through.
1:30:54 > 1:30:58Here was Adams, a man that had gone through the heart attack with him,
1:30:58 > 1:31:00a man that had gone through the stroke with him,
1:31:00 > 1:31:03a man that had gone through the ileitis with him,
1:31:03 > 1:31:07a man who had been totally selfless but he was caught up in a web.
1:31:09 > 1:31:11Guilty?
1:31:11 > 1:31:12I don't know.
1:31:12 > 1:31:18I consider Adams then to be an honest man in his heart,
1:31:18 > 1:31:21he did have some misjudgement,
1:31:21 > 1:31:24but in any event,
1:31:24 > 1:31:27finally, Eisenhower decided...
1:31:28 > 1:31:30..after months of indecision on it -
1:31:30 > 1:31:33and he stood up for him in press conferences over and over again,
1:31:33 > 1:31:35and Haggerty did -
1:31:35 > 1:31:36he decided he had to go.
1:31:38 > 1:31:39You know who did it?
1:31:39 > 1:31:41I did it.
1:31:42 > 1:31:46Eisenhower called me in and asked me to talk to Sherm.
1:31:47 > 1:31:52And so, here was the situation I was faced with.
1:31:54 > 1:31:57Who's going to talk to these men?
1:31:57 > 1:31:59What can we do about it?
1:31:59 > 1:32:02Well, first, let me say that...
1:32:04 > 1:32:07..I didn't have anybody that could talk to them but me.
1:32:07 > 1:32:09I couldn't have Agnew talk to them...
1:32:10 > 1:32:14..because they didn't get along well with him.
1:32:14 > 1:32:17Bill Rogers wasn't happy with him either.
1:32:17 > 1:32:22And so...not having a vice president or anybody else,
1:32:22 > 1:32:26and Haldeman, my Chief of Staff, himself being involved,
1:32:26 > 1:32:28the only man that could talk to him was me.
1:32:30 > 1:32:33Now...
1:32:33 > 1:32:35when I did talk to them,
1:32:35 > 1:32:37it was one of the most...
1:32:42 > 1:32:44..I would say, difficult periods,
1:32:47 > 1:32:49..heart-rending...
1:32:49 > 1:32:52Hard to use adjectives that are adequate.
1:32:52 > 1:32:54..experiences of my life.
1:32:54 > 1:32:56I never forget when I...
1:32:57 > 1:33:02..heard...that on April 15th, from Henry Peterson,
1:33:02 > 1:33:04that they ought to resign,
1:33:04 > 1:33:07and Kleindienst thought they ought to resign,
1:33:07 > 1:33:08and it took me two weeks...
1:33:08 > 1:33:12I frankly agreed, incidentally, in my own mind that they had to go
1:33:12 > 1:33:15on the basis of the evidence that had been presented.
1:33:15 > 1:33:18But I didn't tell them that at that point.
1:33:18 > 1:33:21I... When I say I agreed with it,
1:33:21 > 1:33:25I didn't fully reach that conclusion,
1:33:25 > 1:33:30because I still wanted to give them a chance to survive.
1:33:30 > 1:33:36I didn't want to have them sacked as Eisenhower sacked Adams,
1:33:36 > 1:33:41and Adams goes off to New Hampshire and runs a ski lodge
1:33:41 > 1:33:43and was never prosecuted for anything.
1:33:43 > 1:33:48Sacked because of misjudgement, yes,
1:33:48 > 1:33:51mistakes, yes,
1:33:51 > 1:33:55but...an illegal act
1:33:55 > 1:34:00with an immoral, illegal motive,
1:34:00 > 1:34:02no.
1:34:02 > 1:34:04That's what I feel about Adams
1:34:04 > 1:34:06that's the way I felt about these man at that time.
1:34:09 > 1:34:11Now let me tell you what happened.
1:34:13 > 1:34:17I remember Henry Peterson coming in on that Sunday afternoon.
1:34:19 > 1:34:21Came in off his boat.
1:34:21 > 1:34:25Er... He apologised for...
1:34:26 > 1:34:28..being in his, er...
1:34:29 > 1:34:34..sneakers and a pair of blue jeans and so forth,
1:34:34 > 1:34:37but it was very important to give me the update
1:34:37 > 1:34:41on what had...the developments that had occurred up till April 15th,.
1:34:41 > 1:34:44And he said... He gave me a piece of paper
1:34:44 > 1:34:46indicating that they had knowledge
1:34:46 > 1:34:49of Haldeman's participation in the 350,000,
1:34:49 > 1:34:52and they had knowledge of Ehrlichman's participation
1:34:52 > 1:34:54in ordering... or what they indicated
1:34:54 > 1:34:58that Ehrlichman had told Hunt to deep...
1:34:58 > 1:35:01told the, er...
1:35:01 > 1:35:05Gray to deep-six in papers and so forth and so on,
1:35:05 > 1:35:09And he said, "Mr President, these men have got to resign,
1:35:09 > 1:35:11"you've got to fire them."
1:35:11 > 1:35:15And I said to him... I said, "But, Henry,
1:35:15 > 1:35:18"I can't fire men simply on the basis of charges.
1:35:19 > 1:35:22"They've got to have their day in court,
1:35:22 > 1:35:26"they've got to have a chance to prove their innocence.
1:35:26 > 1:35:28"I've got to see more than this
1:35:28 > 1:35:33"because they claim that they're not guilty."
1:35:34 > 1:35:38And...Henry Peterson,
1:35:38 > 1:35:40very uncharacteristically,
1:35:40 > 1:35:42because he's very respectful,
1:35:42 > 1:35:45a Democrat, a career in civil service, splendid man...
1:35:46 > 1:35:49..sat back in his chair and he said...
1:35:52 > 1:35:55"You know, Mr President, what you've just said...
1:35:57 > 1:35:59"..that you can't fire a man
1:35:59 > 1:36:03"simply on the basis of charges that have been made
1:36:03 > 1:36:06"or the fact that their continued service
1:36:06 > 1:36:08"will be embarrassing to you...
1:36:10 > 1:36:15"..that you've got to have proof before you do that,"
1:36:15 > 1:36:17he said, "that speaks very well for you...
1:36:18 > 1:36:20"..as a man.
1:36:20 > 1:36:23"It doesn't speak well for you as a President.
1:36:24 > 1:36:27And in retrospect, I guess he was right.
1:36:31 > 1:36:34So, it took me two weeks to work it out.
1:36:34 > 1:36:36Tortuous, long sessions.
1:36:36 > 1:36:40You've got hours and hours of talks with them,
1:36:40 > 1:36:43which they resisted, we don't need to go through all that agony.
1:36:43 > 1:36:46Then I remember the day at Camp David when they came up.
1:36:48 > 1:36:51Haldeman came in first, standing as he usually does...
1:36:53 > 1:36:57..not a dramatic Nazi storm trooper
1:36:57 > 1:37:00but just a decent, respected, crew cut guy -
1:37:00 > 1:37:01that's the way Haldeman was.
1:37:02 > 1:37:04Splendid man.
1:37:06 > 1:37:10And he says, "I disagree with your decision totally."
1:37:11 > 1:37:13He said, "I think, eventually,
1:37:13 > 1:37:16"you're going to live to regret it, but I will."
1:37:17 > 1:37:20Ehrlichman then came in.
1:37:20 > 1:37:22I knew that Ehrlichman was bitter
1:37:22 > 1:37:25because he felt very strongly he shouldn't resign,
1:37:25 > 1:37:28although he'd even indicted that Haldeman should go
1:37:28 > 1:37:29and maybe he should stay.
1:37:31 > 1:37:34I took Ehrlichman out on the porch at Aspen.
1:37:34 > 1:37:37You've never been to Aspen, I suppose?
1:37:37 > 1:37:41That's the presidential cabin at Camp David,
1:37:41 > 1:37:45and it was springtime, the tulips had just come out.
1:37:45 > 1:37:47I'll never forget, we looked out across,
1:37:47 > 1:37:50it was one of those gorgeous days when the...you know...
1:37:50 > 1:37:54No clouds were on the mountain,
1:37:54 > 1:37:57and I was pretty emotionally wrought up.
1:37:58 > 1:38:04And I remember that I could just hardly bring myself
1:38:04 > 1:38:07to tell Ehrlichman that he had to go,
1:38:07 > 1:38:10because I knew he was going to resist.
1:38:10 > 1:38:14I said, "You know, John, when I went to bed last night..."
1:38:17 > 1:38:23He said, "I hoped..." I said, "..I hoped...
1:38:23 > 1:38:25"I almost prayed I wouldn't wake up this morning."
1:38:29 > 1:38:32Well, it's an emotional moment.
1:38:32 > 1:38:35I think there were tears in our eyes, both of us.
1:38:35 > 1:38:37He said, "Don't say that."
1:38:37 > 1:38:40We went back in, they agreed to leave.
1:38:40 > 1:38:43And so...
1:38:43 > 1:38:46it was late, but I did it.
1:38:46 > 1:38:49I cut off one arm, then cut off the other arm.
1:38:51 > 1:38:55Now, I can be faulted, I recognise it.
1:38:56 > 1:39:02Maybe I defended them too long. Maybe I tried to help them too much.
1:39:03 > 1:39:08But I was concerned about them. I was concerned about their families.
1:39:08 > 1:39:12I felt that they, in their hearts, felt they were not guilty.
1:39:12 > 1:39:15I felt they ought to have a chance, at least,
1:39:15 > 1:39:17to prove they were not guilty.
1:39:18 > 1:39:21And I didn't want to be in the position
1:39:21 > 1:39:25of just sawing them off in that way.
1:39:25 > 1:39:29I suppose you could sum it all up
1:39:29 > 1:39:34the way one of your British Prime Ministers summed it up, Gladstone,
1:39:34 > 1:39:41when he said that the first... requirement for a Prime Minister
1:39:41 > 1:39:42is to be a good butcher.
1:39:45 > 1:39:53I think the great story, as far as summary of Watergate is concerned,
1:39:53 > 1:39:57I did some of the big things rather well.
1:39:57 > 1:40:03I screwed up terribly on what was a little thing and became a big thing,
1:40:03 > 1:40:06but I will have to admit I wasn't a good butcher.
1:40:06 > 1:40:10Would you go further than mistakes?
1:40:10 > 1:40:14That you've explained how you got caught up in this thing,
1:40:14 > 1:40:20you've explained your motives, I don't want to quibble about any of that.
1:40:20 > 1:40:25But just coming to the sheer substance,
1:40:25 > 1:40:27would you go further than mistakes?
1:40:27 > 1:40:33The word...that seems not enough for people to understand.
1:40:35 > 1:40:37What word would you express?
1:40:42 > 1:40:43My goodness, that's...
1:40:43 > 1:40:48I think there are three things, since you ask me,
1:40:48 > 1:40:50I would like to hear you say,
1:40:50 > 1:40:53I think the American people would like to hear you say.
1:40:53 > 1:40:55One is...
1:40:57 > 1:41:02..there was probably more than mistakes,
1:41:02 > 1:41:05there was...wrongdoing.
1:41:05 > 1:41:09Whether it was a crime or not, yes, it may have been a crime too.
1:41:10 > 1:41:13Secondly...
1:41:13 > 1:41:16I did,
1:41:16 > 1:41:19and I'm saying this without questioning the motives, right?
1:41:19 > 1:41:23I did abuse the power I had as President
1:41:23 > 1:41:28or not fulfilled the totality of the oath of office.
1:41:28 > 1:41:30That's the second thing.
1:41:30 > 1:41:33And thirdly,
1:41:33 > 1:41:39I put the American people through two years of needless agony and I apologise for that.
1:41:39 > 1:41:46And I say that you've explained your motives, I think those are the categories.
1:41:46 > 1:41:49And I know how difficult it is for anyone, and most of all you,
1:41:49 > 1:41:56but I think that people need to hear it, and I think unless you say it,
1:41:56 > 1:41:59you're going to be haunted for the rest of your life.
1:42:02 > 1:42:03I well remember
1:42:03 > 1:42:08that when I let Haldeman and Ehrlichman know
1:42:08 > 1:42:10that they were to resign...
1:42:11 > 1:42:16that I had Ray Price bring in the final draft of the speech
1:42:16 > 1:42:19that I was to make the next night.
1:42:19 > 1:42:21And I said to him, "Ray,"
1:42:21 > 1:42:24I said, "if you think I ought to resign, put that in too,
1:42:24 > 1:42:28"because I feel responsibly,"
1:42:28 > 1:42:30even though I did not feel
1:42:30 > 1:42:37that I had engaged in these activities consciously...
1:42:38 > 1:42:42..insofar as the...
1:42:45 > 1:42:48..knowledge of or participation in the break-in,
1:42:48 > 1:42:50the approval of hush money,
1:42:50 > 1:42:54the approval of clemency, et cetera,
1:42:54 > 1:42:56the various charges that had been made.
1:42:56 > 1:43:00Well, he didn't put it in.
1:43:00 > 1:43:03And I must say that at that time
1:43:03 > 1:43:07I seriously considered whether I shouldn't resign.
1:43:07 > 1:43:10But on the other hand,
1:43:10 > 1:43:14I feel that I owe it to history
1:43:14 > 1:43:18to point out that from that time on April 30th
1:43:18 > 1:43:21until I resigned on August 9th,
1:43:21 > 1:43:24I did some things that were good for this country.
1:43:24 > 1:43:27We had the second and third summits.
1:43:27 > 1:43:30I think one of the major reasons I stayed in office
1:43:30 > 1:43:36was my concern about keeping the China initiative,
1:43:36 > 1:43:41the Soviet initiative, the Vietnam fragile peace agreement.
1:43:41 > 1:43:45And then an added dividend,
1:43:45 > 1:43:51the first breakthrough in moving toward not love,
1:43:51 > 1:43:54but at least not war in the Mid East.
1:43:54 > 1:43:58- You...- And now, coming back to the whole point of...
1:44:01 > 1:44:04..whether I should have resigned then,
1:44:04 > 1:44:07and how I feel now...
1:44:07 > 1:44:11Let me say I just didn't make mistakes in this period.
1:44:11 > 1:44:15I think some of my mistakes I regret most deeply
1:44:15 > 1:44:19came with the statements that I made afterwards.
1:44:19 > 1:44:25Some of those statements were misleading.
1:44:25 > 1:44:27Er...
1:44:27 > 1:44:31I notice, for example, the editor of the Washington Post,
1:44:31 > 1:44:35the managing editor, Ben Bradley, wrote a couple or three months ago
1:44:35 > 1:44:39something to the effect that as far as his newspaper was concerned,
1:44:39 > 1:44:45he said, "We don't print the truth, we print what we know,
1:44:45 > 1:44:48"we print what people tells us...
1:44:51 > 1:44:55.."and this means that we print lies."
1:44:59 > 1:45:02I would say that the statements that I made afterwards
1:45:02 > 1:45:06were, on the big issues, true,
1:45:06 > 1:45:10that I was not involved in the matters that I have spoken about,
1:45:10 > 1:45:12not involved in the break-in,
1:45:12 > 1:45:17that I did not engage in and participate in
1:45:17 > 1:45:19or approve the payment of money
1:45:19 > 1:45:20or the authorisation of clemency,
1:45:20 > 1:45:24which, of course, were the essential elements of the cover-up,
1:45:24 > 1:45:26that was true.
1:45:26 > 1:45:29But the statements were misleading
1:45:29 > 1:45:35in exaggerating in that enormous political attack I was under.
1:45:35 > 1:45:39It was a five-front war with a fifth column.
1:45:42 > 1:45:46I had a partisan Senate committee staff,
1:45:46 > 1:45:52we had a partisan Special Prosecutor staff,
1:45:52 > 1:45:55we had a partisan media,
1:45:55 > 1:45:58we had a partisan judiciary committee staff,
1:45:58 > 1:45:59and the fifth column.
1:45:59 > 1:46:01Under all these circumstances,
1:46:01 > 1:46:07my reactions in some statements and press conversations after that,
1:46:07 > 1:46:10I want to say right here and now,
1:46:10 > 1:46:12I said things that were not true.
1:46:12 > 1:46:17Most of them were fundamentally true on the big issues,
1:46:17 > 1:46:20but without...
1:46:21 > 1:46:25..going as far as I should have gone
1:46:25 > 1:46:28in saying perhaps that I had considered other things
1:46:28 > 1:46:29but had not done them.
1:46:29 > 1:46:33- You mean the...- For all those things, I have a very deep regret.
1:46:33 > 1:46:37You got caught up in something and then it snowballed?
1:46:37 > 1:46:39It snowballed, and it was my fault.
1:46:41 > 1:46:43I'm not blaming anybody else.
1:46:43 > 1:46:46- So...- I am simply saying to you, that as far as I'm concerned...
1:46:48 > 1:46:51..I not only regret it.
1:46:53 > 1:46:59I indicated my own beliefs in this matter.
1:46:59 > 1:47:03When I resigned, people didn't think it was enough to admit mistakes.
1:47:03 > 1:47:11Fine. If they want me to get down and grovel on the floor, no, never.
1:47:12 > 1:47:16Because I don't believe I should.
1:47:18 > 1:47:22On the other hand, there are some friends who say,
1:47:22 > 1:47:25just face them down, there is a conspiracy to get you.
1:47:25 > 1:47:27There may have been.
1:47:27 > 1:47:29I don't know what the CIA had to do...
1:47:29 > 1:47:32Some of their shenanigans have yet to be told,
1:47:32 > 1:47:34according to a book I read recently.
1:47:34 > 1:47:37I don't know what was going on
1:47:37 > 1:47:41in some Republican and Democratic circles,
1:47:41 > 1:47:45as far as the so-called impeachment lobby was concerned.
1:47:45 > 1:47:48However, I don't go with the idea
1:47:48 > 1:47:53that what brought me down was a coup, a conspiracy,
1:47:53 > 1:47:55et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
1:47:57 > 1:47:58I brought myself down.
1:47:58 > 1:48:01I gave them a sword,
1:48:01 > 1:48:07and they stuck it in and they twisted it with relish.
1:48:07 > 1:48:09And I guess, if I'd been in their position,
1:48:09 > 1:48:10I'd have done the same thing.
1:48:10 > 1:48:12But what I'm really saying is that,
1:48:12 > 1:48:16in addition to the untrue statements that you've mentioned...
1:48:18 > 1:48:21..could you just say, with conviction,
1:48:21 > 1:48:25not because I want you to say it,
1:48:25 > 1:48:29that you did do some covering up?
1:48:29 > 1:48:35We're not talking legalistically now, I just want the facts,
1:48:35 > 1:48:37I mean, that you did do some covering up,
1:48:37 > 1:48:41but there were a series of times when,
1:48:41 > 1:48:43maybe overwhelmed by your loyalties or whatever else,
1:48:43 > 1:48:46but as you look back at the record,
1:48:46 > 1:48:52you behaved partially protecting your friends, or maybe yourself,
1:48:52 > 1:48:57and that, in fact, you were, to put it at its most simple,
1:48:57 > 1:49:00a part of a cover-up at times?
1:49:00 > 1:49:03No, I again respectfully
1:49:03 > 1:49:09will not quibble with you about the use of the terms.
1:49:09 > 1:49:15However, before using the term, I think it's very important for me
1:49:15 > 1:49:17to make clear what I did not do and what I did do,
1:49:17 > 1:49:20and then I will answer your question quite directly.
1:49:22 > 1:49:27I did not, in the first place,
1:49:27 > 1:49:32commit the crime of obstruction of justice,
1:49:32 > 1:49:36because I did not have the motive required
1:49:36 > 1:49:38for the commission of that crime.
1:49:38 > 1:49:41- We've had our discussion on that. - The lawyers can argue that.
1:49:41 > 1:49:45I did not commit, in my view, an impeachable offence.
1:49:46 > 1:49:50Now, the house has ruled overwhelmingly that I did.
1:49:50 > 1:49:53Of course, that was only an indictment
1:49:53 > 1:49:55and it would have to be tried in the Senate.
1:49:55 > 1:49:57I might have won, I might have lost.
1:49:57 > 1:50:00But even if I'd won in the Senate by a vote or two,
1:50:00 > 1:50:04I would have been crippled in any event for six months.
1:50:04 > 1:50:07The country couldn't afford having the President in the dock
1:50:07 > 1:50:09in the United States Senate.
1:50:09 > 1:50:12And there can never be an impeachment in the future
1:50:12 > 1:50:13in this country
1:50:13 > 1:50:17without a President voluntarily impeaching himself.
1:50:17 > 1:50:20I have impeached myself. That speaks for itself.
1:50:20 > 1:50:22How do you mean, "I have impeached myself"?
1:50:22 > 1:50:26By resigning. That was a voluntary impeachment.
1:50:26 > 1:50:28And...
1:50:30 > 1:50:36Now, what does that mean in terms of whether you're wanting me to say
1:50:36 > 1:50:40that I participated in an illegal cover-up? No.
1:50:42 > 1:50:44No. When you come to the period,
1:50:44 > 1:50:48and this is the critical period,
1:50:48 > 1:50:51but when you come to the period of March 21st on,
1:50:51 > 1:50:57when Dean gave his legal opinion that certain things...
1:50:57 > 1:51:02actions taken by Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell et cetera,
1:51:02 > 1:51:05and even by himself,
1:51:05 > 1:51:09amounted to illegal cover-up and so forth,
1:51:09 > 1:51:11then I was in a very different position.
1:51:11 > 1:51:15And during that period I will admit
1:51:15 > 1:51:19that I started acting as lawyer for their defence,
1:51:19 > 1:51:22I will admit that, acting as lawyer for their defence,
1:51:22 > 1:51:25I was not prosecuting the case.
1:51:25 > 1:51:28I will admit that during that period,
1:51:28 > 1:51:31rather than acting primarily in my role
1:51:31 > 1:51:33as the chief and law enforcement officer
1:51:33 > 1:51:37of the United States of America,
1:51:37 > 1:51:39or at least with responsibility for law enforcement,
1:51:39 > 1:51:43because the Attorney General is the chief law enforcement officer.
1:51:43 > 1:51:45But as the one with chief responsibility
1:51:45 > 1:51:50for seeing the laws of the United States are enforced,
1:51:50 > 1:51:53that I did not meet that responsibility.
1:51:53 > 1:51:57And to the extent that I did not meet that responsibility,
1:51:57 > 1:52:00to the extent that within the law,
1:52:00 > 1:52:04and in some cases going right to the edge of the law,
1:52:04 > 1:52:08in trying to advise Ehrlichman and Haldeman and all the rest
1:52:08 > 1:52:11as to how best to present their cases,
1:52:11 > 1:52:15because I thought they were legally innocent,
1:52:15 > 1:52:17that I came to the edge.
1:52:18 > 1:52:22And under the circumstances, I would have to say
1:52:22 > 1:52:28that a reasonable person could call that a cover-up.
1:52:28 > 1:52:31I didn't think of it as a cover-up.
1:52:31 > 1:52:33I didn't intend it to cover up.
1:52:33 > 1:52:36Let me say, if I intended to cover up,
1:52:36 > 1:52:38believe me, I'd have done it.
1:52:38 > 1:52:42You know how I could have done it so easily?
1:52:44 > 1:52:47I could have done it immediately after the election
1:52:47 > 1:52:50simply by giving clemency to everybody
1:52:50 > 1:52:52and the whole thing would have gone away.
1:52:52 > 1:52:59I couldn't do that because I said clemency was wrong.
1:52:59 > 1:53:02But now we come down to the key point.
1:53:02 > 1:53:04And let me answer it in my own way
1:53:04 > 1:53:07about how do I feel about the American people? I mean...
1:53:09 > 1:53:14How... Whether I should have resigned earlier.
1:53:14 > 1:53:17Or what I should say to them now?
1:53:18 > 1:53:19Well...
1:53:19 > 1:53:24That forces me to rationalise now
1:53:24 > 1:53:28and give you a carefully prepared and cropped statement.
1:53:28 > 1:53:31I didn't expect this question, so I'm not going to give you that,
1:53:31 > 1:53:34- but I can tell you this... - Nor did I.
1:53:35 > 1:53:38I can tell you this.
1:53:38 > 1:53:40I think I said it all
1:53:40 > 1:53:44in one of those moments that you're not thinking,
1:53:44 > 1:53:47sometimes you say the things that are really in your heart,
1:53:47 > 1:53:50when you're thinking in advance,
1:53:50 > 1:53:54and you say things that, you know, are tailored to the audience.
1:53:55 > 1:54:00I had a lot of difficult meetings those last days before I resigned.
1:54:01 > 1:54:04And the most difficult one,
1:54:04 > 1:54:06and the only one where...
1:54:08 > 1:54:10..I broke into tears...
1:54:12 > 1:54:14..frankly,
1:54:14 > 1:54:19except for that very brief session with Ehrlichman up at Camp David.
1:54:19 > 1:54:21It was the first time I cried since Eisenhower died.
1:54:23 > 1:54:25I met with all of my key supporters
1:54:25 > 1:54:28just the half hour before going on television.
1:54:29 > 1:54:34For 25 minutes, we all sat around at the Oval Office,
1:54:34 > 1:54:37men that I'd come to Congress with.
1:54:38 > 1:54:43Democrats and Republicans, about half and half. Wonderful men.
1:54:43 > 1:54:46And at the very end, after saying, well,
1:54:46 > 1:54:51thank you for all your support during these tough years,
1:54:51 > 1:54:55thank you particularly for what you've done
1:54:55 > 1:54:59to help us end the draft, bring home the POWs
1:54:59 > 1:55:04and have a chance for building a generation of peace,
1:55:04 > 1:55:08which I can see the dream that I had possibly being shattered...
1:55:11 > 1:55:13..and thank you for your friendship,
1:55:13 > 1:55:16little acts of friendship over the years, you know,
1:55:16 > 1:55:19remembering you with a birthday card and the rest...
1:55:19 > 1:55:23Then suddenly you hadn't got much more to say
1:55:23 > 1:55:26and half the people around the table were crying.
1:55:26 > 1:55:32Les Arends, Illinois, bless him, he was just shaking, sobbing.
1:55:34 > 1:55:40And I just can't stand seeing somebody else cry,
1:55:40 > 1:55:41and that ended it for me.
1:55:43 > 1:55:49And I just... Well, I must say, I sort of cracked up, started to cry,
1:55:49 > 1:55:51pushed my chair back...
1:55:52 > 1:55:54..and then I blurted it out.
1:55:55 > 1:55:57And I said...
1:55:57 > 1:56:01"I'm sorry. I just hope I haven't let you down."
1:56:04 > 1:56:08When I said, "I just hope I haven't let you down,"
1:56:08 > 1:56:09that said it all.
1:56:09 > 1:56:11I had.
1:56:11 > 1:56:14I let down my friends,
1:56:14 > 1:56:16I let down...
1:56:19 > 1:56:20..the country.
1:56:21 > 1:56:24I let down our system of government
1:56:24 > 1:56:26and the dreams of all those young people
1:56:26 > 1:56:29that ought to get into government
1:56:29 > 1:56:33but will think it's all too corrupt and the rest.
1:56:33 > 1:56:37Most of all, I let down an opportunity
1:56:37 > 1:56:42that I would have had for two-and-a-half more years
1:56:42 > 1:56:48to proceed on great...projects
1:56:48 > 1:56:51and programmes for building a lasting peace,
1:56:51 > 1:56:54which had been my dream, as you know,
1:56:54 > 1:56:56from our first interview in 1968,
1:56:56 > 1:56:59before I had any thought I might even win that year.
1:56:59 > 1:57:03I didn't tell you I didn't think I might win, but I wasn't sure.
1:57:04 > 1:57:07Yep, I...
1:57:07 > 1:57:09I let the American people down.
1:57:10 > 1:57:15And I have to carry that burden with me for the rest of my life.
1:57:15 > 1:57:17My political life is over.
1:57:17 > 1:57:21I will never yet and never again
1:57:21 > 1:57:25have an opportunity to serve in any official position.
1:57:27 > 1:57:29Maybe I can give a little advice from time to time.
1:57:33 > 1:57:37And so...
1:57:37 > 1:57:40I can only say that, in answer to your question...
1:57:41 > 1:57:46..that while technically I did not commit a crime,
1:57:46 > 1:57:48an impeachable offence...
1:57:50 > 1:57:52These are legalisms.
1:57:52 > 1:57:56As far as the handling of this matter is concerned,
1:57:56 > 1:57:59it was so botched-up.
1:58:00 > 1:58:04I made so many bad judgements.
1:58:04 > 1:58:07The worst ones, mistakes of the heart rather than the head,
1:58:07 > 1:58:10as I pointed out.
1:58:10 > 1:58:15But let me say, a man in that top job,
1:58:15 > 1:58:18he's got to have a heart.
1:58:18 > 1:58:22But his head must always rule his heart.
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