:00:11. > :00:16.The National Waterfront Museum in Swansea - one of the jewels in the
:00:16. > :00:23.crown of our shared heritage. We're here tonight to debate The Story of
:00:23. > :00:33.Wales. Not just how it is told and why that matters, but to ask where
:00:33. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :00:58.our national narrative goes from Welcome to Swansea and to The Story
:00:58. > :01:03.of Wales Debate. You are joining an audience eager
:01:03. > :01:06.to have its say and a panel who when it comes to Welsh history, or
:01:06. > :01:16.should that be histories, they will certainly have plenty to say as
:01:16. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:21.well. They are Peter Stee, d, Ellen Jones,
:01:21. > :01:31.an educationalist. David Anderson is the Director-General of national
:01:31. > :01:34.museum Wales and John Gerraint, from Green Bay, whose production
:01:34. > :01:39.company told The Story of Wales. Well, it was a big hit, with an
:01:39. > :01:42.average of 300,000 viewers per episode. It scored top marks with
:01:42. > :01:52.that audience. They say they have enjoyed it more than any other
:01:52. > :01:57.series on the BBC so far this year. Only Frozen Planet has topped it in
:01:57. > :02:00.the past 10 months. If you have not caught at least some of The Story
:02:00. > :02:10.of Wales, the series has just ended. Here is a taste of what you have
:02:10. > :02:19.
:02:19. > :02:29.From the land of storytellers, this is the story of the land itself and
:02:29. > :02:38.
:02:39. > :02:42.It's majestic, it's thrilling, it's a story who tells us who we are,
:02:42. > :02:47.where we've come from and where we're going. It is a tale which has
:02:47. > :02:57.been 30,000 years in the making. It shows our country in ways we've
:02:57. > :02:58.
:02:58. > :03:03.never seen it before, from the Ice Age to the information age.
:03:03. > :03:10.And all through its history, there have been times when it has led the
:03:10. > :03:18.way. This copper was being exported 4,000 years ago. In the Dark Ages,
:03:18. > :03:22.Welsh saints carried the light of Christianity to Cornwall, Brittany
:03:22. > :03:27.and Spain. Welsh laws, based on putting things right rather than an
:03:27. > :03:32.eye for an eye were the most progressive of the Middle Ages.
:03:32. > :03:37.In the 1700's the Welsh became one of the most literate nations on
:03:37. > :03:43.Earth. Half the population of Wales learns to read in these travelling
:03:43. > :03:47.schools. In a modern world, which Wales helped to power, we have been
:03:47. > :03:53.leaders in technology, in education in the struggle for workers' rights
:03:53. > :03:56.and decent health care. Are we Welsh? Are we British? In
:03:56. > :04:01.the last 70 years, the balance has shifted.
:04:01. > :04:06.We have always been a people who love our Square Mile - our own
:04:06. > :04:11.little bit of Wales. But now, we also have a national frame in which
:04:11. > :04:17.to address our problems. Politics and a set of institutions all of
:04:18. > :04:27.our own. And above all, we are a people with a story and that story
:04:27. > :04:31.gives us power. It is hard for any proud Welsh man
:04:31. > :04:36.or woman not to feel a warm glow after watching that. Are you
:04:36. > :04:41.feeling the glow? Are you feeling too much of a glow, perhaps? I am
:04:41. > :04:45.feeling a glow. Pluses and minuses on the whole. I am thrilled it has
:04:45. > :04:50.been so well made. It is wonderful to think I can go into the
:04:50. > :04:57.classrooms and homes of Wales. It is beautiful to look at. Landscape
:04:57. > :05:01.is beautiful in Wales. We are defined by our landscape. It is not
:05:01. > :05:06.The Story of Wales, it is Huw Edwards on The Story of Wales.
:05:06. > :05:13.There is too much of Huw Edwards. Six hours is too much of him
:05:13. > :05:20.talking T fact it is Huw Edwards made the programmes more subive,
:05:20. > :05:25.more romantic than it needed to be. If historians had been more
:05:25. > :05:29.involved there would have been more cutting-edge. The narrative was
:05:29. > :05:32.well done on the whole and brilliant in the last programme.
:05:32. > :05:36.There were programmes, especially in the Middle Ages where it broke
:05:36. > :05:43.down. We needed more concentration on the definition of Wales in the
:05:43. > :05:48.Middle Ages. On the refation, very sound on Henry VII and the civil
:05:48. > :05:53.war. The reporting was one-sided and seriously wrong in many ways.
:05:53. > :05:57.So pluses and minuses, certainly. Out of ten, what are we saying?
:05:57. > :06:03.Seven out of ten. OK, you will remember the producer is sitting
:06:03. > :06:08.next door. I was going to say five until I remembered that. Is this a
:06:08. > :06:15.story of Wales as opposed to The Story of Wales? Does it matter that
:06:15. > :06:19.it is, to an extent, at least a man and a production company's view of
:06:19. > :06:22.that story? There can only be a story of Wales, there cannot be The
:06:22. > :06:26.Story of Wales. As somebody who is a new-comer to Wales as well, I
:06:26. > :06:31.found I was learning things I didn't know before. That is to be
:06:31. > :06:37.expected. I did find it refreshing that recent research and evidence
:06:37. > :06:44.which has come out from arc koling was being used so much -- arc
:06:44. > :06:50.Collie gi was being used to much. It did bring it to life as well.
:06:50. > :06:53.I see this sort of series really as critical at providing a spine or
:06:53. > :06:59.framework for everybody to move on and take the journey beyond there.
:06:59. > :07:04.It was a story. It did not pretend to be an argument as Peter Steed
:07:04. > :07:09.has alluded to that. It referred to the fact there were arguments and
:07:10. > :07:16.debates. That is a function for any public history. Did it go enough
:07:16. > :07:21.into those arguments for you? It didn't. It was The Story of Wales
:07:21. > :07:27.and it was, Huw Edwards or who ever's take on The Story of Wales.
:07:27. > :07:32.The strength, the fact it was only his take was its weakness for me.
:07:32. > :07:40.And I always have this thing about stories of Wales and history of
:07:40. > :07:43.Wales written by men, produced by men, presented by a man John Davis
:07:43. > :07:46.said the history of Wales is a conspiracy by one half of the
:07:46. > :07:54.population against the other half. I am here to represent the other
:07:54. > :08:04.half tonight. Which absent women were there?
:08:04. > :08:05.
:08:05. > :08:10.didn't have anything about Elanor. Lucy Thomas didn't have a mention.
:08:10. > :08:14.She was the mother of the household trade. She was wonderful. You
:08:14. > :08:23.didn't have enough of the entrepreneurial spirit of Welsh
:08:23. > :08:27.women. What did you get? Where were the miners' wives. 300,000 who
:08:27. > :08:31.commented after watching the programme got a great deal from it,
:08:31. > :08:35.something they say they have not got from anywhere else. What was
:08:35. > :08:38.that then? That was a history of Wales. That was their past. I think,
:08:38. > :08:41.for whatever reasons and we can debate those reasons, people in
:08:41. > :08:46.Wales have lost a sense of their own history. There is a sense that
:08:47. > :08:54.there is a sort of real history which often includes Henry the
:08:54. > :08:59.eighth and his six wives and it includes Mercer and Nazi Germany.
:08:59. > :09:04.It is the history which is accepted. Hang on, Peter. We have to think
:09:04. > :09:10.about the way in which we engage Welsh people in the future with a
:09:10. > :09:16.creation of their history. It is their history. Nobody else's.
:09:16. > :09:21.we did get was identity. Certainly the question of identity is
:09:21. > :09:25.problematic in Wales today. You can argue that a service has been done
:09:25. > :09:29.by giving people an identity. The emphasis could have been on other
:09:29. > :09:33.things. They can achieve it through class, through religion, through
:09:33. > :09:39.language. It doesn't have to be political institutions. It did not
:09:39. > :09:44.have to be the coming of Cardiff Bay. It can be through
:09:44. > :09:49.individualism, individual self- fulfilment. If anything is needed
:09:49. > :09:52.it is an emphasis on individuality and for people to fulfil themselves
:09:52. > :09:57.in that kind of way. That could have been a different emphasis.
:09:57. > :10:00.have heard their comments and you have seen the audience appreciation
:10:00. > :10:04.figures we have alluded to. What did you set out to do with this
:10:04. > :10:09.series? Well, I think it is great we're having this debate and the
:10:09. > :10:14.views around the panel here are obviously varied. I think they are
:10:14. > :10:20.at variance with the reaction of the audience. You mentioned the
:10:20. > :10:23.audience appreciation figures. They did not give it seven out of ten,
:10:23. > :10:30.they gave it more than that. That measure is showing the appreciation
:10:30. > :10:32.of the audience was so deep for this, is that they do understand
:10:32. > :10:36.the complexities. They do understand that the story of Wales,
:10:36. > :10:41.as we have defined it in this series, is the story of each and
:10:41. > :10:44.every one of us in Wales. They have taken the depth. They have taken
:10:44. > :10:48.the quality that we have been able to offer in this series because
:10:48. > :10:53.they don't respond to that question, how much did you appreciate this
:10:53. > :10:58.for a series like this, as they would do for Strictly Come Dancing
:10:58. > :11:02.or The Voice. They understand this is a serious documentary series.
:11:02. > :11:05.That seriousness and that depth comes from the very real engagement
:11:05. > :11:11.of the entire academic community here in Wales. In the development
:11:11. > :11:18.of this series, we consulted with 48 academic historians. On screen
:11:18. > :11:23.in this series, there are 30, more than 30 actually, experts,
:11:23. > :11:28.historians. Did it matter it was a news caster who told the story?
:11:28. > :11:33.me finish this point, because those academics who contributed and we
:11:33. > :11:37.also had a series consultant. We had a panel of experts who advised
:11:37. > :11:42.us from the Open University, included many women.
:11:42. > :11:46.The new generation of women historians, younger women, really
:11:46. > :11:49.had their voice in this series. That has never been done before.
:11:49. > :11:52.Huw Edwards for me was the only person who could bring that all
:11:52. > :11:57.together and he did. He is brilliant. He is the number one
:11:57. > :12:01.news caster on Britain's most watched news programme. And that is
:12:01. > :12:06.not by accident, it is because he knows how to tell a story, how to
:12:06. > :12:10.move through 30,000 years of history in a way which engages the
:12:10. > :12:13.audience, gives them substance and depth, but keeps the audience
:12:13. > :12:16.engaged and following with us all the way through this series, as
:12:16. > :12:20.they have done in huge numbers. Thank you. You talk about engaging
:12:20. > :12:23.the audience. Let's do that now. You have all seen the series. You
:12:23. > :12:28.have your opinions on it. Can I come to you as someone who
:12:28. > :12:32.has had a huge part in telling The Story of Wales on television for
:12:32. > :12:41.audiences who might not be terribly interested before they switch on.
:12:41. > :12:47.It is a tough thing, isn't it? is tough for the reasons that Peter
:12:48. > :12:54.and Ellen have described. I am not surprised to find there is a
:12:54. > :12:59.majority from the audience for this series. It feels big and is big. I
:12:59. > :13:04.believe a nation is a narrative and this is a big narrative. I accept
:13:04. > :13:07.the view that it may not be to everyone's liking. It is a way of
:13:07. > :13:10.telling the story and people like telling the story and people like
:13:10. > :13:13.stories. It is also right that there should
:13:14. > :13:20.be an argument. There is already an argument about it. It would be very
:13:21. > :13:24.surprising, wouldn't it if people in Wales were not beginning to
:13:24. > :13:29.quarrel about it. I think the argument opening up is healthy
:13:29. > :13:34.because people will look behind what they first saw and it looks
:13:34. > :13:37.marvellous and say, he's got a point, the historians this and the
:13:37. > :13:43.historians that. We are lucky in Wales to have so many historians.
:13:43. > :13:47.When I started working if Wales in 1969 there was just a small band of
:13:47. > :13:51.them. Now they have grown up, as we can see from Peter and historians
:13:51. > :13:58.are everywhere. I would like to have seen more
:13:58. > :14:04.people, people from different walks of life. OK, thank you. Who else
:14:04. > :14:07.had a view on the series? What did you make of it? I think history
:14:07. > :14:12.comes alive through it will rayure comes alive through it will rayure
:14:12. > :14:17.very often. To me D there were lots of moments, especially the gorgeous
:14:17. > :14:24.sunsets when they were deeply enhanced by hearing the voices from
:14:24. > :14:30.the past in their own words. Huw turned to the sunset and said
:14:30. > :14:34.it was the end of the world. Wales produced one of the most beautiful
:14:34. > :14:38.energies. It would have been beautiful to hear the words at that
:14:38. > :14:41.point over that sunset, maybe with a translation running down the side
:14:41. > :14:47.or something. Voices from the past needed to be heard through the
:14:47. > :14:51.literature of the past. On the miners - there were many
:14:51. > :14:57.people who could have spoken for us, for the nation, in poems, in
:14:57. > :15:02.stories. It was The Story of Wales after all. Talking about landscape
:15:02. > :15:06.porn - did you enjoy that or did you think there was too much of it?
:15:06. > :15:11.It is the flavour of the moment, isn't it? I get dizzy with
:15:11. > :15:18.helicopter shots, I must say. I really do. But it is the flavour of
:15:18. > :15:25.the moment. Every age sporns the television it needs to have. If you
:15:25. > :15:28.compare this with the Dragon Has Two Tongues. That was a sustained
:15:28. > :15:34.argument between two people with fiercely opposing views. That was
:15:34. > :15:39.very much the time it was set in, the '80s, it was the time of
:15:39. > :15:47.radical, different views. Now we live in a PR age, where it is
:15:47. > :15:51.glossy and beautiful. Everything is buffed to a fine shine. The take is
:15:51. > :16:00.a reflection of its time - a child of its time as much as what has
:16:00. > :16:07.gone before. You are saying it is the same for television? Of course
:16:07. > :16:13.it is. The sining to graphy was -- the filming was beautiful. What did
:16:13. > :16:18.you make of it? I am very positive of the programme. There are few
:16:18. > :16:24.series which bring families together. The last one was Coal
:16:24. > :16:28.House, for example. This brought my family together. I have to speak in
:16:28. > :16:35.defence of Huw Edwards. I thought he sold the story of Wales very
:16:35. > :16:38.well. 300,000 viewers agreed with you.
:16:38. > :16:43.Those 300,000 commented quite freely on the Facebook page and
:16:43. > :16:48.Twitter and so on, and one of the points they made a few times,
:16:48. > :16:53.various people saying, "I didn't know that about The Story of Wales.
:16:53. > :16:57.Had I known that I would have been more proud of it." Why didn't they
:16:57. > :17:02.know that? Why don't we know our history better? Why did we need
:17:02. > :17:04.this series so badly? I think you can say because there was a
:17:04. > :17:08.distinction between academic history, which is vital to bring
:17:08. > :17:12.flesh and blood into thinking and if you like the public history. I
:17:12. > :17:15.think it's a comment on all of us who are responsible for the public
:17:15. > :17:19.history really, that maybe some of these stories are not better known.
:17:19. > :17:23.I think it means that, in the same way as television series, have
:17:23. > :17:28.their generation - there is a need for each generation to have new
:17:28. > :17:35.takes on these issues. The same is true for museums as well. They are
:17:35. > :17:40.another important part. Is it an admission of public failure - that
:17:40. > :17:44.people don't know the history? history of England has been real
:17:44. > :17:47.history. The history of Wales is what you do when you do the real
:17:47. > :17:53.history. You do local history, a bit of women's history, that is
:17:53. > :17:59.where you go - you add it on. We have not stood where we are and
:17:59. > :18:03.look outwards. Are you talking as a history teacher? Yes. I am. That is
:18:03. > :18:10.precisely what we tried to do in The Story of Wales. I will not
:18:10. > :18:14.apologise for the look of it. Television is a medium -- visual
:18:14. > :18:19.medium. Wake up, guys. We had a message - that message was, we are
:18:19. > :18:23.in a wider world. We have always been in that wider world. Those
:18:23. > :18:27.links have always existed and existed in both directions. We have
:18:27. > :18:35.been at the cutting edge of change. That is what the audience reacts to.
:18:35. > :18:41.The excitement of that discovery. You have your argument first.
:18:41. > :18:45.the first programme things like the Bronze Age discoveries, riveting.
:18:45. > :18:49.That was wonderful. Several people told me, this is my own poll about
:18:49. > :18:54.that first programme, the one thing we wanted to know is where the
:18:54. > :18:59.Welsh language came from? How did Wales have the language? It is not
:18:59. > :19:05.mentioned. It is only taken up slightly thereafter.
:19:05. > :19:10.Peter is wrong and being mischievous. It's not there. We are
:19:10. > :19:14.not told where the Welsh language came from. Let me bring you back to
:19:14. > :19:18.the issue of education - it is such a key one. When you set out to make
:19:18. > :19:22.the series, did you have an assumption or a deaf knit decision
:19:22. > :19:27.to say, I don't think -- deaf knit decision to say, I don't think most
:19:27. > :19:32.people will know this. We were asked to make a programme at 9pm.
:19:32. > :19:37.That is a battle ground for the audyabs T way you win that is you
:19:38. > :19:42.re-- audience. The way you win that is you don't assume political
:19:42. > :19:46.knowledge. Yes, we had to assume an idea that people don't know this
:19:46. > :19:55.story or these facts. The reaction you report on Twitter and Facebook
:19:55. > :20:02.and all kinds of online forums have been going wild with it. I never
:20:02. > :20:06.knew this - that message comes through again and again.
:20:06. > :20:11.Humphreys, the Open University was involved - it was a partner in
:20:11. > :20:16.making the series. Why did you feel it was important to be involved?
:20:16. > :20:20.don't have any qualms with working the BBC, we have done that for 40
:20:20. > :20:24.years. It was an enriching partnership. It was important to
:20:24. > :20:28.see it as a component part, not a one-off as a number of activities,
:20:28. > :20:33.so the people who phone in and respond to Huw Edwards's call at
:20:33. > :20:40.the end of the programme for our free booklet and that booklet
:20:40. > :20:44.challenges some of the issues around the missing links and how
:20:44. > :20:50.history is with generation and the stuff on the Open University
:20:50. > :20:54.website looks to fill in the gaps. The panellists have said are
:20:54. > :20:59.compressed to make a television series. One final point, one of the
:20:59. > :21:02.things we are trying to develop, working with libraries, for example,
:21:02. > :21:06.in south-east Wales, with day schools and the rest of it, a
:21:07. > :21:12.series like this is not about promoting pride in our nation or
:21:12. > :21:15.promoting a warm glow, it is about promoting an understanding of our
:21:15. > :21:20.past, and understandings of our past, because citizens today need
:21:20. > :21:26.to make decisions about their future, in order to do that they
:21:26. > :21:33.need clarity around their past. Certainly people can debate it,
:21:33. > :21:40.argue about it. That is its purpose. The TV series is a primer to get
:21:40. > :21:44.people to learn more? 9pm, BBC One, this is peak time. It is a very
:21:44. > :21:46.competitive environment for broadcasters. Sure, there are
:21:47. > :21:54.issues of compression and accessibility. We intend, and we do,
:21:54. > :21:58.build on that, just as we did, with the programme earlier on Frozen
:21:58. > :22:01.Planet, which was an open University production. I will come
:22:01. > :22:09.to the younger citizens of today. How many of your classmates would
:22:09. > :22:14.have watched this series, do you know? From our classmates because
:22:14. > :22:20.we do history, they would have watched it. Because they were told
:22:20. > :22:26.to or found it interesting? Both really. We do stuff that interests
:22:26. > :22:29.you in the academic world and a series like this does. I think the
:22:29. > :22:34.wider school, a wider younger generation would not necessarily
:22:34. > :22:39.watch a documentary like this. There was a comment on Facebook,
:22:39. > :22:44.history in school was really boring, this is interesting, go Huw. Was
:22:44. > :22:48.that a view you shared? I obviously like history. It's not what I think,
:22:48. > :22:54.but other people might not be as interested. Maybe something like
:22:54. > :22:58.this, which is on TV, and it's all in one go, it might be a bit better.
:22:58. > :23:04.Have you been taught Welsh history? How much did you know, for
:23:04. > :23:07.instance? Seeing bits of it to do with the myths and stuff like that
:23:07. > :23:13.we have done. Would you like to know more Welsh history? Should
:23:13. > :23:18.more be taught in your school, for instance? Within history we don't
:23:18. > :23:23.get taught, we get taught British history and examples of Wales. If
:23:23. > :23:28.we learnt more about Welsh history, the actual Welsh lessons through
:23:28. > :23:35.literature and asking our Welsh teacher what is best. Why is that
:23:35. > :23:40.still the case? These are school pupils now, why do they tell us
:23:40. > :23:44.they learn more about history in their Welsh lessons? I weep. It is
:23:45. > :23:49.the truth, there is a sense with history teachers although there is
:23:49. > :23:53.a statutory requirement to teach certain topics in Welsh and British
:23:53. > :23:58.history and the wider world, it is written in the curriculum, it is
:23:58. > :24:03.law. What gets taught to you and gets taught by teachers the length
:24:03. > :24:06.and breadth of Wales... Hang on. It is a history, a perceived
:24:06. > :24:16.curriculum that they have got to know this, they have got to know
:24:16. > :24:17.
:24:17. > :24:21.whentry the eighth. They have to know the -- the history of Henry
:24:21. > :24:27.VIII. Is it changing fast enough?
:24:27. > :24:32.There is not enough local history either. An educational system which
:24:32. > :24:40.has declined. You have been saying about learning things. I think it
:24:40. > :24:45.was programme four, that period I did for O-level in 1958. Nothing
:24:45. > :24:52.was said that was not said by my history teacher. You are lucky.
:24:52. > :24:59.That is the way Welsh history was taught. Identity is about values.
:24:59. > :25:03.In the series the two great value systems, which created modern Wales,
:25:04. > :25:07.are Protestant non-confor mitty and socialism, especially the Labour
:25:07. > :25:11.Party. The series did no justice to either of those things. Nothing is
:25:11. > :25:17.said about the theology and what he meant to Wales. And on the
:25:17. > :25:22.programme in the miners, there was no reference to the miner's lodgers.
:25:22. > :25:29.The Labour Party had one mention at the end of the programme. I think
:25:29. > :25:33.Peter has switched off to put his kettle on at key points. We talk
:25:33. > :25:38.about the med methodist revival. We talk about the travelling Sunday
:25:38. > :25:42.schools and what they do to make Wales one of the most literate
:25:42. > :25:46.countries in the world, based on the fact that people wanted to read
:25:46. > :25:50.their bibles. He is being very miss cheveous. What about education and
:25:50. > :25:54.whether we are taught enough about our history, this programme's role
:25:55. > :26:00.in teaching us more. Who has a take on that? Let's start here.
:26:00. > :26:05.Television has a major role in how public understand history.
:26:05. > :26:09.Historians in the 1990s complained there was too much Hitler, too
:26:10. > :26:16.first first and Second World War. Producers started to make
:26:16. > :26:21.programmes about Britain. Then historians criticised those series
:26:21. > :26:27.and the subsequent series in Ireland have been criticised. It is
:26:27. > :26:31.an on-going tradition. Historians need to realise it is an
:26:31. > :26:37.improvement of the Nazis history. am cheating here. I am jumping on
:26:37. > :26:43.this ladder to make a point I feel is very important. What worries me
:26:43. > :26:51.is... Well it is not history of the Welsh people, it is not inclusive.
:26:51. > :26:56.If I was from north Wales, what would I be doing - huffing and
:26:56. > :27:01.puffing. Rural Wales got lost. I come from the maritime tradition.
:27:01. > :27:10.We got 30 seconds. So before you get too angry here I am really
:27:10. > :27:15.annoyed that women were of mitded from your story. A -- were Ommitted.
:27:15. > :27:20.That point has been made. A few times we have started to talk about
:27:20. > :27:27.identity. Peter you have taken us towards talking about identity.
:27:27. > :27:33.What does it mean to be Welsh? The Story of Wales went into that
:27:33. > :27:38.territory. One programme was entitled, England and Wales. Who
:27:38. > :27:42.thinks cities are changing the way we think of ourselves and the
:27:42. > :27:46.relationship to Britain and Wales? I think the point has been very
:27:46. > :27:56.well made that it was necessarily a selective history of Wales. In a
:27:56. > :28:00.sense, that is because any story of any nation is going to be exclusive.
:28:00. > :28:06.What I thought was interesting about that last episode was that in
:28:06. > :28:11.a sense it was saying, well now we have a legislative Assembly in
:28:11. > :28:16.Wales, and we can build on that. We can look to the future. The point
:28:16. > :28:21.was made that we are engaging a sense of Welsh citizenship. That
:28:21. > :28:26.allows us, in a sense, to put the past behind us, to use that as a
:28:26. > :28:29.solid foundation, but to no longer be enthralled to the past. To no
:28:29. > :28:34.longer to be concerned always to define Wales by those elements in
:28:34. > :28:41.the past that we want to prioritise and select. There was a question in
:28:41. > :28:51.this story of Wales - do you feel Welsh or British? Who... Not all of
:28:51. > :28:56.you are Welsh. But those who are, who feels Welsh first and foremost?
:28:56. > :29:00.Why? I suppose when I grew up I had the idea that I was a subject of
:29:00. > :29:05.the Queen. I liked the fact I have become a citizen in that period. I
:29:05. > :29:09.have always recented having to describe myself as "British". That
:29:09. > :29:14.is something imposed on me by the state.
:29:14. > :29:18.Last year I was pondering the Wales I lived in. I thought, what makes
:29:18. > :29:23.me proud? There are those stereotypes, rugby teams and the
:29:23. > :29:29.rest of it. But I was living in America and I read in an American
:29:29. > :29:35.newspaper about the National Theatre, the national the teeter of
:29:35. > :29:40.Wales's production it said "there could not have been a happier place
:29:40. > :29:44.in the world than Port Talbot." It was transformed by a creative act.
:29:44. > :29:49.I thought, that is the sort of Wales I like, come out and say
:29:49. > :29:53.Britishness was a shadow in the past, but we have moved on. We can
:29:53. > :29:57.describe ourselves as a creative nation, one which can transform
:29:57. > :30:02.people and make them feel better. For this series, yes, it is
:30:02. > :30:09.romantic. Yes, it is lush and has that big sense around that you get
:30:09. > :30:13.in the cinema. You need that "feel- good factor". You need that "feel-
:30:13. > :30:17.good factor", because with that creativity we have a disabling
:30:18. > :30:23.poverty in Wales, which has been a constant in our history as well.
:30:23. > :30:28.Who else has their hand up? It is interesting that we were asked the
:30:28. > :30:31.question, do you feel Welsh or British? A lot of people don't
:30:31. > :30:36.define their identity necessarily to do with nationhood to begin with.
:30:36. > :30:40.This is the tension with making a story that is about a nation, and
:30:40. > :30:46.emphasising what we have in common. You could ask, do you feel Welsh,
:30:46. > :30:52.or do you feel more allies with your femininity or do you feel
:30:52. > :30:55.allied with your politics or your class? This programme, necessarily
:30:55. > :31:02.is privileged national identity above those other identities. I
:31:02. > :31:07.suppose that is one of the, perhaps tensions that is coming out in
:31:07. > :31:12.debate. I think that historical academics feel. A lot have spent a
:31:12. > :31:17.lot of time over recent decades studying the diversity and
:31:17. > :31:22.difference. Let's come to you then on that feeling of identity. Why
:31:22. > :31:27.did you hon in on it? Why did you regard it as so important for this
:31:27. > :31:35.series? I think there has been a shift in political terms. There has
:31:35. > :31:40.been a cultural shift. There's been a shift with people learning the
:31:40. > :31:45.Welsh language. It is a less divisive issue than 40-50 years ago.
:31:45. > :31:49.We have to take account of that. That is one of the facts of living
:31:49. > :31:53.life in Wales. Living in Wales feels different now than when I was
:31:53. > :31:57.a boy. We need to reflect that. The point is well made, that we were
:31:57. > :32:00.asked to produce the story of a nation. Therefore one has the
:32:00. > :32:04.privilege in certain senses things that relate to that frame in
:32:04. > :32:09.telling the story. Huw Edwards is not here, but I will channel him
:32:09. > :32:14.and a quote from the last programme. He said "we're an ancient people,
:32:14. > :32:22.more certain of our identity than at any point in the last 1,000
:32:22. > :32:27.years." It went partly to explain the mood, the uplifting mood of the
:32:27. > :32:32.series? Do we agree with him? a confusing situation. It is a more
:32:32. > :32:35.confusing situation than that. I am disappointed by the over
:32:35. > :32:39.simplification of the programme. The question of identity is an
:32:39. > :32:42.important one. It is important that we hold up a complicated notion of
:32:42. > :32:49.identity. By far the most exciting thing has been the Industrial
:32:49. > :32:53.Revolution. We were made by the revolution. The wealth it allowed.
:32:53. > :32:57.We had the tragedy of it in the 20th century. The last programme,
:32:57. > :33:02.which I thought was the best of the six, caught that brilliantly. What
:33:02. > :33:06.is the answer? Well, the answer must be the question of wealth
:33:06. > :33:12.creation. This is something which the programme does not look at all.
:33:12. > :33:15.There is little economic history in the programme. Why aren't we more
:33:15. > :33:19.entrepreneurial? Can we become more entrepreneurial?
:33:19. > :33:23.I think the emphasis should have been on identity in terms of skills
:33:23. > :33:26.and fulfilment rather than thinking that some kind of political
:33:26. > :33:31.devolution is going to be the one great answer to all of these
:33:31. > :33:36.questions. You are looking from the outside in a way, you are not Welsh.
:33:36. > :33:40.You are Scottish. Born in Belfast. Are we obsessing about this? Not at
:33:40. > :33:44.all. I think on the contrary, coming to terms with identity is
:33:44. > :33:49.crucial. If you don't then the problems can be much greater as
:33:49. > :33:53.well. One only has to look into England to see there is not a
:33:53. > :34:01.museum about English history. There was the series about the history of
:34:01. > :34:06.Britain, as defined as opposed to a history of England. There are grave
:34:06. > :34:10.risks. I heard about them needing them to look at what we need to be
:34:10. > :34:13.and issues of self-reliance as well. Part of this as well, and I think
:34:13. > :34:17.looking at Irish history, is generosity about engagement with
:34:17. > :34:21.the rest of the world. We are what we have come from. We also need to
:34:22. > :34:25.be what we can be in terms of relationships with others as well.
:34:25. > :34:29.The confidence which comes from both of those things is significant.
:34:29. > :34:34.I will pick up another confidence. The Story of Wales, up until now,
:34:34. > :34:40.where do you see it going from here? Does the series - what does
:34:41. > :34:46.it tell us about where we go from here? I think the fact that there
:34:46. > :34:49.were many women historians involved is encouraging. It may be more
:34:49. > :34:52.balanced if we tell ourselves in the future. It will be a story
:34:52. > :34:57.which reflects our position on the edge of Europe, but connected to
:34:58. > :35:00.Europe by many ties. So there will be a strong sense, I hope, of a
:35:00. > :35:03.Welshness, which is us and ourselves and close to our hearts
:35:04. > :35:09.but looking out wider than Wales itself. Over to Ireland and
:35:10. > :35:14.Scotland as well as England and into Europe. Where in fact issues
:35:14. > :35:17.of identity are regularly debated by historians, just as we debate
:35:18. > :35:23.them in Wales. There are small nations elsewhere. We can learn
:35:23. > :35:30.from each other. We should value our tradition, our multi-identities
:35:30. > :35:35.as much as we can for the future and take pride and in our own
:35:36. > :35:44.language and own places. One of the thrilling things was about focusing
:35:44. > :35:48.on the moments where Wales had connections, where Wales led the
:35:48. > :35:54.world. Where we connected that that much wider world and we led it in
:35:54. > :36:00.the battle for workers' rights, for education. Where do we go from
:36:00. > :36:05.here? When you look forward, what do you see? That is telling us that
:36:05. > :36:12.Wales can be ambition. -- ambitious. I think in the climate we find
:36:12. > :36:15.ourselves in there is a danger we try and play catch-up. I think
:36:15. > :36:21.there are times and there are places and there are moments where
:36:21. > :36:25.we can lead the way. We should seek those. Where do you see the...
:36:25. > :36:30.Another series in 20 years what will that tell us? I hope we don't
:36:30. > :36:34.have to wait 20 years. Let's hope in 20 years we will celebrate some
:36:34. > :36:42.kind of recovery and Wales having a global role. We should look
:36:42. > :36:46.outwards. The Wales I grew up in in the 40's and 50's we were as much
:36:46. > :36:50.American. The popular culture was American. I think the Welsh always
:36:50. > :36:54.had a fascination with America. A lot of Welsh energy has gone into
:36:54. > :36:59.America. That is something we need to develop. Do you look ahead with
:36:59. > :37:03.confidence? Yes. The sort of confidence we saw in this series?
:37:03. > :37:10.think Wales should have an international role. We should say
:37:10. > :37:14.to young people, take it on, in terms of literature, in terms of
:37:14. > :37:19.the creative arts. That does not have to be tied to a political
:37:19. > :37:22.solution in Cardiff Bay. We are too concerned with politics in Wales
:37:22. > :37:28.and so concerned with political institutions. You are talking to
:37:28. > :37:34.the wrong woman. Not sufficiently concerned. Cultural fulfilment is
:37:34. > :37:38.what we should look at. I promised not to give you 10 seconds, but I
:37:38. > :37:42.will. Where do we go from here? Things can be different from what
:37:42. > :37:52.they are in the present. If we can learn that lesson, we don't have to
:37:52. > :37:54.
:37:54. > :37:59.copy the past, we can invent our own inven -- inventions. Whatever
:37:59. > :38:03.you made of it got us wanting more. There has been passionate debate
:38:03. > :38:08.about it. There have been thousands of comments on social media over
:38:09. > :38:13.the past few weeks. The debate will now, I hope, carry online, on the
:38:13. > :38:17.Facebook page and on Twitter. If you want to enjoy The Story of
:38:17. > :38:23.Wales again, then you won't have long to wait. It will be shown on
:38:23. > :38:26.BBC Two across the UK soon. So that viewer who wrote in to say this
:38:26. > :38:31.should be shown on the English Channel, talk about identity, well