0:00:41 > 0:00:44Sir Mortimer Wheeler endowed the huge Iron Age hill fort
0:00:44 > 0:00:46of Stanwick in northern Yorkshire in 1951
0:00:46 > 0:00:50as his contribution to the Festival of Britain.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53As it turned out, it was his last major excavation in Britain,
0:00:53 > 0:00:56but he brought to it the same originality that had marked
0:00:56 > 0:01:02all his digs, the same unerring gift for making the past come alive.
0:01:02 > 0:01:09They...the people we dug up were living at the beginning of the...
0:01:09 > 0:01:11what we call the Roman period,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15at, say...in the years immediately following the Roman invasion
0:01:15 > 0:01:17of this country in 43 AD.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21We know that for the pieces of pottery
0:01:21 > 0:01:25we began to find in our digging already, quite early on.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28We knew, also,
0:01:28 > 0:01:34that involved in this affair were the local natives -
0:01:34 > 0:01:36we call them Celts.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38But they were the local natives,
0:01:38 > 0:01:42to one of whom, to one of the chieftains amongst whom,
0:01:42 > 0:01:45this sword I've told you of must have belonged.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47But these were in fact the British?
0:01:47 > 0:01:52They were British. The Brigantes were the Yorkshiremen of the period,
0:01:52 > 0:01:53roughly speaking -
0:01:53 > 0:01:58the great tribe which stretched from sea to sea across what is
0:01:58 > 0:02:02now roughly Yorkshire and Lancashire,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05cutting the whole island into half.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08The Brigantes occupied that area,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11the area in the midst of which we were digging.
0:02:12 > 0:02:17It was a pastoral society.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21It lived not on corn but on beef
0:02:21 > 0:02:23and milk and things of that sort.
0:02:25 > 0:02:30Secondly, by way of contrast to this,
0:02:30 > 0:02:34the southern part of the island was agricultural.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38It had an agricultural south and a pastoral north.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41The island was divided roughly into two, and all this happened
0:02:41 > 0:02:44in the pastoral north amongst the Brigantes.
0:02:44 > 0:02:50The first thing they did on arriving here in 43 AD, the Romans,
0:02:50 > 0:02:56was to, er...develop, exploit the south, where the corn grew.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59You see, Roman soldiers in those days didn't eat much meat,
0:02:59 > 0:03:05they ate gruel and oats and barley and so on.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07They were vegetarians very largely,
0:03:07 > 0:03:12and they wanted to develop the vegetarian area of England at first.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16They did - places like Maiden Castle and so on.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Meanwhile, in order to keep the rest of the island quiet
0:03:19 > 0:03:22they came to some sort of an agreement with the Brigantes
0:03:22 > 0:03:27in the north whereby the Brigantes held their fire.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30I remember Tacitus said somewhere that the Romans
0:03:30 > 0:03:34thought that the men of Kent were the only civilised people
0:03:34 > 0:03:37that they knew - presumably because they ate porridge!
0:03:37 > 0:03:40Partly that and partly also, of course, they were nearer to the
0:03:40 > 0:03:45Roman world. They'd been in contact with the Roman world up to a point.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49They'd traded with Gaul, which was already Roman,
0:03:49 > 0:03:53and so they had a better opportunity of advancement
0:03:53 > 0:03:58than the people in the far north in the hills and moors of the north.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00The uncouth Yorkshiremen.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02The uncouth Yorkshiremen.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05I won't go further north than that at the moment.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09These Brigantes, were they the sort of equivalent of the kind
0:04:09 > 0:04:11of partisans that you've got in the Second World War?
0:04:11 > 0:04:14They were guerrillas who took to the mountains and carried
0:04:14 > 0:04:17on attacking the invaders from these mountain fastnesses?
0:04:17 > 0:04:20It's more this way, I think, Mag -
0:04:20 > 0:04:23that having made this compact with the Romans,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27they proceeded, at the first opportunity, to break it.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32When the Romans began to march across Wales with their eyes on Ireland -
0:04:32 > 0:04:35the Romans never got to Ireland, but they obviously intended
0:04:35 > 0:04:41to at one time, they were marching towards Anglesey and Ireland -
0:04:41 > 0:04:45and when they got far enough away from the main part of England,
0:04:45 > 0:04:47what is now England,
0:04:47 > 0:04:53the Brigantes, this northern tribe, rose behind them.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56They had to therefore turn round and go back,
0:04:56 > 0:04:59and bring them to heel again, bring them to heel,
0:04:59 > 0:05:04and this state of affairs of, er...
0:05:04 > 0:05:09come and go, as it were, continued for the next generation.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12The Brigantes had a royal house
0:05:12 > 0:05:16with a King Venutius and Queen Cartimandua.
0:05:16 > 0:05:22Queen Cartimandua had handed over Caratacus to the Romans
0:05:22 > 0:05:24when he took refuge with her.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27Is this the Caractacus of the pop song?
0:05:27 > 0:05:31It's Caract... Caractacus to the... so vulgar!
0:05:31 > 0:05:32MAGNUS LAUGHS
0:05:32 > 0:05:38But again, Caratacus...after all, if you can say Boudica,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41I can say Caratacus.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Now, they...
0:05:44 > 0:05:49She - Cartimandua, the Queen - became pro-Roman.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51She was a quisling.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55The King - this is around about the middle of the first century,
0:05:55 > 0:06:02the King was anti-Roman and with him went the major part of his tribe.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07His little original hill fort was enlarged,
0:06:07 > 0:06:12first of all by the addition of 130 acres of new ground
0:06:12 > 0:06:15which included a stream, now known as the Mary Wild Beck -
0:06:15 > 0:06:19I don't know who Mary Wild was, nobody could tell me -
0:06:19 > 0:06:24but a large part of her stream was included in the new defences,
0:06:24 > 0:06:28so that his allies, whom he began to call in to his aid,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31could bring their flocks and herds with them.
0:06:31 > 0:06:37And then later, round about, shall we say, oh, 69-70 AD,
0:06:37 > 0:06:41so we're getting on gradually into the century, Venutius
0:06:41 > 0:06:44further enlarged this great place
0:06:44 > 0:06:48by the addition of 400 acres more...600 acres more.
0:06:48 > 0:06:49Why?
0:06:49 > 0:06:52Because he was calling in more tribesmen.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54He called in the neighbouring tribes to his aid.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57They all flocked in to his colours, as it were,
0:06:57 > 0:07:00bringing their food with them, bringing their flocks and herds
0:07:00 > 0:07:06and their families with them - in that order, and they wanted space.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10They wanted more and more of this stream to water their flocks at and
0:07:10 > 0:07:12for their own purposes.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16And so the place grew to the enormous size that it is today.
0:07:17 > 0:07:24But we found in digging the...this final enlargement
0:07:24 > 0:07:27that the work had never been finished.
0:07:27 > 0:07:28It was stopped in the middle.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32The great entrance at the south which I thought might produce more
0:07:32 > 0:07:37swords and more relics was found never to have been used.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39The rocks were lying loose -
0:07:39 > 0:07:42the great rocks which they chiselled away
0:07:42 > 0:07:45in making their rock-cut ditch there
0:07:45 > 0:07:48were still lying loose where the builders had left them.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51So in fact, the Romans had cottoned on to what Venutius was doing
0:07:51 > 0:07:53and attacked before he'd time to get it all ready.
0:07:53 > 0:08:00Yes, but this time, the Romans had an advanced legion at York,
0:08:00 > 0:08:03their Ninth Legion, the famous Ninth Legion.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07The Ninth Legion always lost its battles except the last one.
0:08:07 > 0:08:12And the last one is the one I'm just coming to, when about 70 AD,
0:08:12 > 0:08:19just after 70, the Brigantes rose for the last time under their king.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22The Queen had fled to the Romans for safety.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26But the Brigantes rose under their king
0:08:26 > 0:08:30and you can almost hear the Ninth Legion tramping up the road,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34when you look at this unfinished entrance with the rocks still
0:08:34 > 0:08:37standing there as the builders had left them. It's very vivid.
0:08:37 > 0:08:38Very vivid indeed.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41Now there was another bit that you yourself added
0:08:41 > 0:08:42to the report of this excavation.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45I remember reading in one of the footnotes, and in that you
0:08:45 > 0:08:50describe a little bit what you thought about Queen Cartimandua.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54You said that you thought in fact that she was a southern princess,
0:08:54 > 0:08:59who had been living in a land of wine and honey,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02and then she'd been married off to some uncouth cattle rancher from
0:09:02 > 0:09:05the north, from Yorkshire, and that she resented this the whole time -
0:09:05 > 0:09:07they were a totally incompatible couple
0:09:07 > 0:09:10and that this, perhaps, is why they fell out.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13That's it, you've got it well.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17And she couldn't take these... these ranchers of the north.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19I think you're perfectly right.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23I was perfectly right, too, when I wrote that footnote, I think,
0:09:23 > 0:09:25that Cartimandua almost certainly was
0:09:25 > 0:09:29a member of Cymbeline's or Cunobelin's family,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32came from the neighbourhood of Colchester,
0:09:32 > 0:09:35the most civilised part of pre-Roman Britain,
0:09:35 > 0:09:40and that she became a quisling -
0:09:40 > 0:09:45for that reason that her sympathies were with her relations in the south
0:09:45 > 0:09:50and she couldn't stand this hairy, this hairy...
0:09:50 > 0:09:51Husband?
0:09:51 > 0:09:53Well, husband is... Yes, or...this hairy husband...
0:09:53 > 0:09:58This, what shall I say, pastoral...
0:09:58 > 0:10:02pastoral shep...this shepherd, this great shepherd
0:10:02 > 0:10:04in the north.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08He's more than a shepherd because we know that he had not only sheep
0:10:08 > 0:10:11and goats, but he had masses of cattle.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14We've found their remains, the remains of their dinners,
0:10:14 > 0:10:16and the dinners of his fellow tribesmen.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19We found them all there. We've got the whole evidence.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22Now you call her a quisling queen
0:10:22 > 0:10:26but presumably there wasn't the same kind of sense of nationalism
0:10:26 > 0:10:29during the Roman invasion that you had, for instance, in
0:10:29 > 0:10:32the Second World War, because after all, it wasn't a nation, it was just
0:10:32 > 0:10:36a series of scattered tribes that occupied large areas of England.
0:10:36 > 0:10:41I think it's perfectly clear from one's reading of what is
0:10:41 > 0:10:48left of Tacitus, that the anti-Roman feeling and the patriotic
0:10:48 > 0:10:53local, tribal anti-Roman feeling were very strongly marked.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56I've always been fascinated by the way in which
0:10:56 > 0:11:00during your excavations you've come across the spoor of
0:11:00 > 0:11:05great men of the past - men like Caesar, Vespasian and his attack
0:11:05 > 0:11:10on Maiden Castle, and in Pakistan, Alexander the Great at Charsadda.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13What do you feel about these people whom you're helping to dig up?
0:11:13 > 0:11:17Well, you can't dig for them unless you begin to know them.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19You can't follow them
0:11:19 > 0:11:22unless you have a sort of idea of what they're going after themselves.
0:11:22 > 0:11:27No, but the point is this - I have a bias.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29We all have a bias in one direction or another
0:11:29 > 0:11:33but my bias is in favour of the individual.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35I like to know the individual.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38There are those - and they're very good archaeologists -
0:11:38 > 0:11:43who are content to know all that there is to know about
0:11:43 > 0:11:45a collection of flint implements.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49Anonymous flint implements - very important.
0:11:49 > 0:11:55Gives you some idea of SOCIAL values at a certain period
0:11:55 > 0:11:58or at a conjectural period, if you like, sometimes.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02But I've always had -
0:12:02 > 0:12:05and this probably goes back to my classical beginnings,
0:12:05 > 0:12:09when, after all, you were dealing with individual writers, individual
0:12:09 > 0:12:12poets, Horace and Livy and Tacitus
0:12:12 > 0:12:16and so on - they were all individuals and as writers, they were
0:12:16 > 0:12:19individuals and they were themselves interested in individuals
0:12:19 > 0:12:23and that's probably why I have this little bias in myself for what
0:12:23 > 0:12:26is called history and protohistory.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32There's phases of man and man's story, man's history,
0:12:32 > 0:12:37when you can pick out here and there a few odd individuals who have
0:12:37 > 0:12:41contributed, more than others, perhaps, into progress,
0:12:41 > 0:12:44what we call progress, or what they may have called progress, and so on.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47Well, more recently, I've...
0:12:49 > 0:12:54you know, small way, been treading in the footsteps of Alexander
0:12:54 > 0:12:59at Charsadda in the north or north-west frontier.
0:12:59 > 0:13:04You go up to the north of his frontier today, you know, it's...
0:13:04 > 0:13:09there is in the atmosphere of the north-west frontier a certain
0:13:09 > 0:13:16sense of open air - things may happen, an army may go by...
0:13:18 > 0:13:22..almost invisibly, but you can sense it.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27You find the actual landscapes through which
0:13:27 > 0:13:34Alexander in his various moods galloped, was wounded,
0:13:34 > 0:13:40conquered and never quite failed - very nearly, once or twice,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43but never quite failed.
0:13:43 > 0:13:48He's a success story but a success which he deserves
0:13:48 > 0:13:53and to follow a man of that kind, of that calibre, through the landscape
0:13:53 > 0:13:55which we know he penetrated,
0:13:55 > 0:14:00to dig up an ancient city like Pushkalavati, Lotus City,
0:14:00 > 0:14:06which we know that he conquered himself with enormous force,
0:14:06 > 0:14:10where he himself went to receive the surrender of the inhabitants,
0:14:10 > 0:14:16and where he put his own garrison in and so on.
0:14:16 > 0:14:21A success story, but a success story on an immense field.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23So you don't get lost in the personality.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26The personality was always a figure in a wider landscape.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28That's me.
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