0:00:02 > 0:00:0512 students, made up of Christians, Muslims and
0:00:05 > 0:00:09non-believers, go on a journey to explore some big questions of faith.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12In a series of five short films, they ask:
0:00:12 > 0:00:14Can God heal today?
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Come. You need healing tonight.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18Why do innocent children suffer?
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Is marriage outdated?
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Where does religion stand when it comes to homosexuality?
0:00:24 > 0:00:26And what happens when we die?
0:00:37 > 0:00:40You may have heard someone exclaim that something was
0:00:40 > 0:00:42a revelation to them, meaning they found out something
0:00:42 > 0:00:46surprising or they've had a sudden moment of clarity.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49But in religion, revelation refers to the way God speaks to
0:00:49 > 0:00:52mankind and reveals the truth of that religion to them.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55Some also believe that God can directly connect with us
0:00:55 > 0:00:57to guide us or even heal us.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01So how does God reveal himself to us?
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Well, sacred texts, such as the Bible and Koran
0:01:06 > 0:01:08are all thought to be revelations from God.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14Muslims believe that the Koran was verbally revealed from God to
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21For Christians, Jesus is God revealed in human form.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23But can we experience God today,
0:01:23 > 0:01:27or are such experiences all in the mind?
0:01:27 > 0:01:30We've gathered together a group of young people with different
0:01:30 > 0:01:34beliefs to go on a journey to find out more about revelation
0:01:34 > 0:01:37and what it means to Christians, Muslims and non-believers.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44I'm Morgan. I'm a first-year student at the University of Leeds.
0:01:44 > 0:01:45I grew up in a Christian family.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49When I was around 16, I started to question religion a lot.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52There were just too many things that didn't add up and that made me
0:01:52 > 0:01:54lose my faith.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56I call myself a utilitarian, which means that
0:01:56 > 0:02:00I believe everybody has the right to do what makes them happy.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05I'm Rachel and I'm a student at Lancaster University.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08These earrings are probably more of a fashion statement than
0:02:08 > 0:02:10a religious statement.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13I believe in God but that doesn't stop me from making my own decisions.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17I get upset when people don't respect each other's views.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19I do feel that there's a place for God in my life
0:02:19 > 0:02:22because I like to feel loved and supported.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24My name is Fayaz.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27I am 18 years old and I'm from Batley, West Yorkshire.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I'm a Muslim. I pray five times a day.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35I try to do everything according to how our Prophet did.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39The Koran is the most important revelation to me but, as a Muslim,
0:02:39 > 0:02:43it is very important for me to see what other faiths say as well.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Morgan, Rachel and Fayaz are getting a first-hand experience
0:02:50 > 0:02:52of what revelation means.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55They're visiting the New Life Christian Centre.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59It's a Pentecostal church where people come to ask God to heal them.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01I've never ever been to a church before,
0:03:01 > 0:03:03so I don't know what I'm expecting.
0:03:03 > 0:03:08I think it's going to be quite in my face, quite loud,
0:03:08 > 0:03:10quite happy-clappy.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12I'm expecting a lot of music.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15There's always a lot of music, from my experience.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21Leading the worship is Pastor Jarrod Cooper.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23It's the kind of place where
0:03:23 > 0:03:25there's an expectation that it isn't
0:03:25 > 0:03:28just the offering of a religion to God
0:03:28 > 0:03:31but rather, God's here. We can interact with him in some way.
0:03:31 > 0:03:36There's also a passionate belief that God is alive and well
0:03:36 > 0:03:39and therefore answers prayer and heals people,
0:03:39 > 0:03:41and might even speak to people today.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45Right, everybody, come on, let's worship and pray.
0:03:45 > 0:03:46Many of the worshippers have
0:03:46 > 0:03:50travelled from across the region to experience God's healing power.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52In Jesus' name, we rebuke this back pain.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55I command it to be removed now, in Jesus' name.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02Look at me. Move now. Has it gone?
0:04:04 > 0:04:07Just be totally honest with me, has it gone or is it the same?
0:04:07 > 0:04:11A little bit better? A little bit worse? A little bit better. Let's pray again.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13Where are you in pain, Naomi?
0:04:13 > 0:04:15Intermittently, all over.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19OK, all right. So let the spirit of God come on you.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22I command that to stop in Jesus' name.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24Let the spirit of God come on you.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26Let the spirit of God...
0:04:26 > 0:04:29Let the spirit of God come on you. In Jesus' name...
0:04:31 > 0:04:34A few years ago, Sandra came to pray for healing,
0:04:34 > 0:04:37after having a fall at work which left her barely able to walk.
0:04:39 > 0:04:44They discovered that in the fall I had broken and dislocated
0:04:44 > 0:04:47the coccyx and caused some crush injury to the
0:04:47 > 0:04:51base of the spine and had dislocated my sacroiliac joint.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55So this was the reason that I was in so much distress.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58Sandra had an operation which enabled her to walk,
0:04:58 > 0:05:00but she was still in chronic pain.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Raise your life up to Him tonight.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06Even as we start this night of prayer...
0:05:06 > 0:05:09And then, one Sunday, she came to a healing service.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13So I went forward for prayer and, as Jarrod laid hands on me,
0:05:13 > 0:05:18I went over in the spirit and I was aware of this heat
0:05:18 > 0:05:21and power in my body, and just that the power of God was actually
0:05:21 > 0:05:23being revealed there and then.
0:05:23 > 0:05:24And when I got up,
0:05:24 > 0:05:27I kind of moved and I thought, "I can't feel any pain.
0:05:27 > 0:05:29"I feel no pain at all."
0:05:29 > 0:05:35And I can genuinely say that since then it's remained pain free.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37What would you say to somebody who said it was entirely all
0:05:37 > 0:05:39the doctors' help that you got
0:05:39 > 0:05:42and all the medicine that you received, as opposed to God's work?
0:05:43 > 0:05:47I'd have to say that doesn't make sense, because I think this
0:05:47 > 0:05:54sudden transformation that I had from being in so much pain still -
0:05:54 > 0:05:59it wasn't, to me, explicable or explainable by normal means.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04In Jesus' name right now, I command that pain to leave,
0:06:04 > 0:06:06leave in the name of Jesus.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08So I agree with you, it's surreal.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11And I would be cynical if I didn't know these people before
0:06:11 > 0:06:12and afterwards.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15But I'm looking at someone who was in a wheelchair and now walking.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18And you kind of just go, "Well, there is a God."
0:06:18 > 0:06:21Can anybody heal somebody, or is it just like the select few?
0:06:21 > 0:06:24The basic belief is that anybody can pray for anybody.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29Someone who doesn't even know God but says, "Jesus, will you heal me?"
0:06:29 > 0:06:32God's God - he's not just listening to Christians,
0:06:32 > 0:06:34he listening to anyone who calls out to him.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Why do you think some people come here to be healed,
0:06:37 > 0:06:39but then they don't receive the healing?
0:06:39 > 0:06:41My first question when I meet God face-to-face
0:06:41 > 0:06:45when I die will be, "Why that one?
0:06:45 > 0:06:46"Why not that one?"
0:06:46 > 0:06:50And that's one of the big, mysterious and difficult questions.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52I want you to come and join me here at the front
0:06:52 > 0:06:53if you need healing and you...
0:06:53 > 0:06:56Janice suffered a brain tumour in 2000.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00She's often in pain and has difficulty walking but so far,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03her prayers haven't been answered.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Do you think it's made you lose your faith at all, or doubt God at times?
0:07:06 > 0:07:10No, it's never made me doubt God at all.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13But sometimes, I suppose,
0:07:13 > 0:07:18I lose confidence that the healing will actually come about.
0:07:18 > 0:07:20But not my faith in God itself.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25I believe that life is a test,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29so do you think that the condition that you have is a test from God?
0:07:29 > 0:07:35I think it may well be and it may be a test of my faith in him.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39It may be a test of how much I'm willing to persevere, how much
0:07:39 > 0:07:45I'm willing to just keep believing and pressing on and keep asking.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47- Yeah.- Remember, the Christian worldview is this -
0:07:47 > 0:07:51for a Christian to be healed is fabulous.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55But even when a Christian dies, they go to heaven, so we still say,
0:07:55 > 0:07:58in one sense, even though we're missing them, it's still fabulous.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00So we would say they are healed.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04I think whether you believe in God or you don't believe in God,
0:08:04 > 0:08:08it's hard to deny there's definitely something in the atmosphere.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Yes. The whole experience is really affecting them. Did you believe what was going on?
0:08:11 > 0:08:14- No, no! I did not believe it at all. - No.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Well, that's what Morgan, Rachel and Fayaz made of it.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22But what do the rest of our group think?
0:08:22 > 0:08:26That was a very powerful experience there but Fayaz,
0:08:26 > 0:08:27you weren't convinced, were you?
0:08:27 > 0:08:29No, I wasn't convinced at all.
0:08:29 > 0:08:33The Pastor - he was kind of associating himself
0:08:33 > 0:08:37and kind of playing alongside God.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40Only Allah is the one that gives sickness
0:08:40 > 0:08:44and only Allah is the one that can cure the sickness.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47The whole service, to me, was just completely ridiculous.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49Sarah, what do you think about it?
0:08:49 > 0:08:51Do you the woman's been healed?
0:08:51 > 0:08:54I do think that the woman was healed.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56There are loads of stories in the Bible
0:08:56 > 0:08:59about tonnes of people that Jesus healed when he was on Earth
0:08:59 > 0:09:01and I think he can still do that today.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05And I think he can do it through people, through the power of prayer.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07What do you think actually happened?
0:09:07 > 0:09:09I do think she was healed.
0:09:09 > 0:09:16I don't necessarily think that it was God that did it because,
0:09:16 > 0:09:18obviously, I don't believe in God.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21But you know, maybe it could be something to do with the mind.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23Very strange things can happen.
0:09:23 > 0:09:28You can't always find an explanation for them there and then.
0:09:28 > 0:09:34If I was in pain for so long and then this happened to me, then
0:09:34 > 0:09:41I'd sort of think, well, what's more likely - that the laws of physics
0:09:41 > 0:09:47and nature have been suspended in my favour or it's a coincidence?
0:09:47 > 0:09:50I think it's completely possible for God to do miracles
0:09:50 > 0:09:53and to heal people, but I think the problem with these kinds of services
0:09:53 > 0:09:56is that they're very, kind of, emotionally fuelled.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58And when that, kind of, euphoria,
0:09:58 > 0:10:00kind of, takes over people,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04it's more of a show rather then glorifying God.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06I could get sort of an overwhelming feeling inside of me,
0:10:06 > 0:10:11you know, with like, lights and, you know, the music or something...
0:10:11 > 0:10:13If I went to see David Bowie or something, I'd just be like...
0:10:13 > 0:10:17Ooh! You know, I think I'd be having like a religious experience.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21I'm not going to a concert with you!
0:10:21 > 0:10:24So for Christians, what is revelation?
0:10:24 > 0:10:25I think it could be split into two.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28So maybe general revelation and special revelation.
0:10:28 > 0:10:32So I'd say general revelation is the creation all around us.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35That's something everybody can see. You know creation is beautiful.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37That's one way of God revealing himself.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42And then special revelation would be things like the Bible,
0:10:42 > 0:10:43miracles, healing.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47And then, finally, Jesus Christ as like the final, perfect,
0:10:47 > 0:10:50full revelation of God in human form
0:10:50 > 0:10:52and that's how we know his characteristics.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55In Islam, we believe that God does not physically reveal himself
0:10:55 > 0:10:56to mankind.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59We believe that the Koran is a form of revelation.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02When we read the Koran there is a direct contact
0:11:02 > 0:11:04between a human with God.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08There's a big difference between revelation and inspiration.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10In Islam, revelation is only of one type,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13where God reveals himself through an angel to a Prophet.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17And inspiration is something completely different,
0:11:17 > 0:11:20where, you know, you may feel something or you may have a dream.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24Revelation is always infallible, whereas inspiration may be fallible.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26I feel like God communicates with me.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29Why do you think that people, such as myself, who...
0:11:29 > 0:11:32I mean, I'm not... I'm not crazy.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35I mean, why do you think it's such a real thing to me?
0:11:35 > 0:11:40But is it any more real than a person
0:11:40 > 0:11:43hearing voices? That's real to them as well.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47Rachel, do you think God can reveal himself in human minds?
0:11:47 > 0:11:51Erm, I don't think I would necessarily hear him speak to me.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54But I think if I was making a big decision,
0:11:54 > 0:11:57I would feel a sway towards a certain way.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01Then how do you know if it's God speaking or what you want for yourself?
0:12:01 > 0:12:05Well, because I feel that God would tell me
0:12:05 > 0:12:07what is the best route to take.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10I don't think I would know myself what the best route to take.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13Interesting comments there. So, does God heal?
0:12:13 > 0:12:17Would you call it inspiration or revelation? What do you think?
0:12:27 > 0:12:30One of the most common questions people struggle with
0:12:30 > 0:12:34when studying religion is, if there is a God and he's a kind,
0:12:34 > 0:12:38benevolent God, then why does he allow innocent people to suffer?
0:12:38 > 0:12:40It's a difficult concept for us to come to terms with,
0:12:40 > 0:12:43especially when we see children suffering.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48When natural disasters such as earthquakes,
0:12:48 > 0:12:53floods and typhoons hit a country, they kill thousands.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56Those who are left often find themselves homeless,
0:12:56 > 0:12:57having lost everything.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02The pain and suffering they cause lead many people to ask,
0:13:02 > 0:13:04"Where is God in all this?"
0:13:04 > 0:13:08Everything is destroyed!
0:13:08 > 0:13:11For an atheist, it's simple.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13Suffering is something that just happens.
0:13:14 > 0:13:19But how do people of faith reconcile a benevolent creator with tragic events?
0:13:21 > 0:13:23We've gathered a group of young people together.
0:13:23 > 0:13:28Some are Muslim, some are Christian and some have no faith at all.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31We sent three of them off to find out more about how we cope
0:13:31 > 0:13:32with pain and suffering.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38I'm Andrew. I'm a third year medical student at Leeds University.
0:13:38 > 0:13:40The more I learn about the human body,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43the more I feel that there just has to be a God behind it.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48As humans, we think we have the right to understand everything.
0:13:48 > 0:13:53But, as a Christian, I think sometimes we have to just stand back and trust that it's in God's hands.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57Hi, I'm Jade. I'm 23 and I'm studying philosophy, ethics
0:13:57 > 0:13:59and religion at Leeds University.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04I don't believe in God. I think it's really important for everybody to understand
0:14:04 > 0:14:07different religions, so we can all get along.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09However, I don't think I need religion to teach me
0:14:09 > 0:14:11how to be a good person.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15If there was a God, I don't believe that he would let certain types
0:14:15 > 0:14:18of suffering happen, especially the suffering of children.
0:14:18 > 0:14:19My name is Fayaz.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23I am 18 years old and I'm from Batley, West Yorkshire.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27I'm a Muslim. I pray five times a day.
0:14:27 > 0:14:32I try to do everything according to how our Prophet did.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35My little brother, his name's Ayub, and he has Down's syndrome
0:14:35 > 0:14:40and he just absolutely loves the Koran.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43And ever since he's been born, he's been a blessing.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46Aw, ye-e-es!
0:14:47 > 0:14:52Jade, Andrew and Fayaz have come to Kinross in Scotland to visit
0:14:52 > 0:14:55a children's hospice called Rachel House.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58It's probably the first time I've been around such ill children.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02It's going to be difficult maybe not to cry.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04Yeah, I think it will be quite difficult
0:15:04 > 0:15:08and there will be challenging questions to ask ourselves.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Once inside, they couldn't be more wrong.
0:15:10 > 0:15:15Oooh! And we do lots of things like that, lots of movement.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17The Clowndoctors have arrived,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20prescribing a dose of laughter for everyone.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23Doctor D!
0:15:23 > 0:15:25I'm sorry, Doctor Spritely, I'm sorry!
0:15:25 > 0:15:27She really enjoys playing.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30Oh, she does. She wakes up smiling every day and she's just a happy little girl,
0:15:30 > 0:15:32despite everything.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Rachel House is a place where children who need constant
0:15:37 > 0:15:39medical care can come for a break.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44We try to give them as much happiness as possible
0:15:44 > 0:15:48and to make their life as full as possible,
0:15:48 > 0:15:52so that they reach as much as they can of their potential.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54Are you going to say hello?
0:15:56 > 0:15:59The Reverend Marion Keston is the chaplain here and,
0:15:59 > 0:16:03although the hospice isn't affiliated to any particular faith,
0:16:03 > 0:16:05she is often the person parents turn to
0:16:05 > 0:16:09if they have to face the end of their child's life.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13"How dare I believe in God?" some of them will say.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17"How can God allow this to happen in the world?"
0:16:17 > 0:16:20Why do you think that God allows suffering in the world?
0:16:22 > 0:16:25I do believe that suffering is part of living
0:16:25 > 0:16:30and I don't think we can live without having suffering.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Suffering helps us to grow and to develop.
0:16:33 > 0:16:34I think it keeps us
0:16:34 > 0:16:42aware of the reality of the love that's around us.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46So I don't think God ever wants us to suffer.
0:16:46 > 0:16:51For me, I find it so challenging to think, why should a child suffer?
0:16:51 > 0:16:57A child, probably in a way, suffers less than an adult.
0:16:57 > 0:17:04If you have that love from home, then I think a child accepts
0:17:04 > 0:17:07and lives as much as they can.
0:17:09 > 0:17:14The multi-sensory room is somewhere everyone wants to play in.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18We have different equipment within the room that stimulates the senses.
0:17:19 > 0:17:20How old's Sophie?
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Sophie's just had her first birthday.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26- Are you ticklish? - Yeah, she's got tickly knees.
0:17:29 > 0:17:30Hi. I'm Caroline.
0:17:30 > 0:17:32- Hi.- I'm Jade.
0:17:32 > 0:17:36Caroline usually visits the hospice with her young daughter.
0:17:36 > 0:17:40Unfortunately, Isla needs hospital treatment today.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42She has Edward's syndrome,
0:17:42 > 0:17:46a chromosomal condition which means she has complex medical needs.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49It affects her cognitive development,
0:17:49 > 0:17:55it affects her physical development but she's a cheeky wee thing, so...
0:17:56 > 0:18:02So has the situation with Isla shaken your Christian faith at all?
0:18:02 > 0:18:06Not really, no. I don't think it's a bad thing.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09I don't think I'm being punished by God.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13On the contrary, I think I'm actually blessed by God.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15Do you make the best of what you've been presented with?
0:18:15 > 0:18:19Or do you sit about and mope and say, "Why me? Why me?"
0:18:19 > 0:18:22So, no, my faith wasn't really shaken at all.
0:18:22 > 0:18:26It's probably been strengthened because I'm relying on it a little bit more.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30Do you think having Isla is a test from God?
0:18:30 > 0:18:32I think I got what I asked for.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36You know, I asked to be a mum and I got to be a mum.
0:18:37 > 0:18:39Maybe he is testing me.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43Maybe he's seeing what I can deal with.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46- Hi, Craig.- Hi.- Hi, Craig.- Hi, Craig.
0:18:46 > 0:18:47Hello, Craig.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49So in the midst of all the difficulty
0:18:49 > 0:18:52and challenges that a lot of these families face,
0:18:52 > 0:18:55do you see the good that God works in their lives?
0:18:55 > 0:18:59Yes, I think it pours from them!
0:18:59 > 0:19:04I think there's almost a sense that they realise that life is
0:19:04 > 0:19:09important and I think they live their lives then more to the full
0:19:09 > 0:19:11than many people.
0:19:12 > 0:19:17So what sort of effect do you think Isla has on other people around her?
0:19:17 > 0:19:19I think she does bring people together,
0:19:19 > 0:19:25but she also does bring out something special in people as well.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30Our children are just so blessed and they give us blessing.
0:19:30 > 0:19:35In many ways, our life is graced by these children.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39So can good come out of suffering,
0:19:39 > 0:19:42or is it incompatible with a loving God?
0:19:42 > 0:19:45Our group have plenty to say on the subject.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48We're going to start off by going to Fayaz.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50What did you think about your experience?
0:19:50 > 0:19:54It just completely moved me and, at a personal level,
0:19:54 > 0:19:57I have a little brother who has Down's syndrome.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01So we, as individuals, perceive that as a child that is suffering.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04But when you see the child, he's happy and it makes us
0:20:04 > 0:20:07realise what life is about.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09Jade, was there anything that surprised you?
0:20:09 > 0:20:13I thought it would be quite depressing,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16quite emotional.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20But it was actually like a really uplifting experience for me.
0:20:20 > 0:20:26A question that I didn't really feel was answered was why do we need,
0:20:26 > 0:20:32you know, earthquakes and mass terrible disasters and, like,
0:20:32 > 0:20:33innocent people suffering?
0:20:33 > 0:20:36As a Christian, when natural disasters do happen we have to
0:20:36 > 0:20:41also acknowledge the fact that we're all going to die by some means.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45So the important thing for Christians is not so much focusing
0:20:45 > 0:20:49on how we come to an end but how we live our lives up to that point.
0:20:49 > 0:20:50The Koran teaches us, you know,
0:20:50 > 0:20:54God has created life and death as a test for us.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56Even if you feel pain that's equivalent to the
0:20:56 > 0:20:59prick of a thorn, you're losing sins for that.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02So if you think about it like that, the more you are suffering,
0:21:02 > 0:21:04the more sins you are losing
0:21:04 > 0:21:07and the greater your reward is going to be in the hereafter.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11I can sense why the atheists believe why suffering is bad,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14but that's primarily because they don't believe in the afterlife.
0:21:14 > 0:21:19There's a pretty good example of it during the Second World War.
0:21:19 > 0:21:24There was found, carved into the wall of a concentration
0:21:24 > 0:21:27camp by a Jewish inmate:
0:21:27 > 0:21:31"If God does exist, then he's going to have to beg for my forgiveness."
0:21:31 > 0:21:35That kind of sums it up, because that's an incredible amount of suffering.
0:21:35 > 0:21:39Why would people so easily forgive him if he even did exist?
0:21:39 > 0:21:41The Bible talks a lot about
0:21:41 > 0:21:43how suffering teaches us things.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46It teaches us endurance and perseverance
0:21:46 > 0:21:49and there's scriptures about how sometimes we go through things
0:21:49 > 0:21:53so that we're able to overcome them and comfort other people who are going through the same things.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55Yeah, it strengthens us. It builds our character.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57It builds perseverance.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01What do you thing about that, Harry?
0:22:01 > 0:22:04I can't grasp why a God who is all-loving and loves all his creations
0:22:04 > 0:22:09would want to impose suffering on anybody.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13God doesn't inflict all of the suffering that people go through.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Some suffering is man-made through the decisions that we make.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19And because God loves us, he gives us the free choice to make those
0:22:19 > 0:22:23decisions and we have to deal with the consequences of those decisions.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26At the start of creation, Adam and Eve were given free will
0:22:26 > 0:22:30and this all comes into the Fall, of bringing evil into humanity.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33That's why we're all born with Original Sin.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37It's not anything that WE'VE done, it's a consequence of what Adam
0:22:37 > 0:22:40did at the very start of creation and that's through free will.
0:22:40 > 0:22:46The whole idea of Original Sin is just... I find it disgusting.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50It's the idea that you are born sick
0:22:50 > 0:22:56and then commanded to be well again through no fault of your own.
0:22:56 > 0:22:57Well, in Islam, we don't believe
0:22:57 > 0:22:59that anybody's born with Original Sin -
0:22:59 > 0:23:01everybody's born with a fresh, new start.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05There's no sins. It's throughout life, throughout the course of life,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07that sins come about.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Does anyone have any personal experiences where suffering
0:23:09 > 0:23:15has either brought them closer to God or drawn them away from God?
0:23:15 > 0:23:16My mum was quite ill when I was younger.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19I can remember asking, like, "You know, you're a good person, Mum.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24"Why would God let this happen to you if he was real?"
0:23:24 > 0:23:28I think this is when I, sort of, became an atheist.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31I've grown-up with a very ill mother
0:23:31 > 0:23:34and I've seen her go through a lot and that's not only been
0:23:34 > 0:23:37a test for her but for me and my dad, personally.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41I can honestly say that there have been times where I do think,
0:23:41 > 0:23:43like, "Why me?" or "Why all these tests?"
0:23:43 > 0:23:46But, at the end of the day, it makes me closer to God.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48We've had some fantastic comments here and thank you
0:23:48 > 0:23:51all very much for sharing your personal experiences as well.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03There's one thing that most religions agree on
0:24:03 > 0:24:07and that's marriage between a man and a woman is a good thing -
0:24:07 > 0:24:09it's an ideal to be encouraged.
0:24:10 > 0:24:15These days you can marry almost anywhere, even underwater.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19There are over 250,000 weddings every year in the UK.
0:24:19 > 0:24:20For non-believers,
0:24:20 > 0:24:24it's a celebration of two people getting legally hitched.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27But for people of faith, God remains an important element
0:24:27 > 0:24:30when it comes to tying the knot.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34We've gathered 12 young people from different faith backgrounds
0:24:34 > 0:24:36and we've sent three of them to a Pakistani Muslim
0:24:36 > 0:24:39wedding to find out what marriage means in Islam.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43My name is Ammar. I've just turned 18.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47I'm currently studying my A-levels. I really love family life.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50My mum and dad had an arranged marriage
0:24:50 > 0:24:53and they really love each other and are very happy together.
0:24:53 > 0:24:54I hope to get married.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57Whether I meet that person by myself or they're introduced to me
0:24:57 > 0:24:59by parents is not an issue for me.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05I'm Morgan. I'm a first-year student at the University of Leeds.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07I grew up in a Christian family.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10When I was around 16, I started to question religion a lot.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14There were just too many things that didn't add up and that made me lose my faith.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18I call myself a utilitarian, which means that
0:25:18 > 0:25:21I believe everybody has the right to do what makes them happy.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25I'm Stuart. I'm 19.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29I'm studying religious studies at Lancaster University.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32In the future, I hope to train for the Catholic priesthood.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35It will be a fantastic opportunity to serve people.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38Although I won't be able to get married as a priest,
0:25:38 > 0:25:41my family will be the wider Catholic community.
0:25:44 > 0:25:48It's the morning of the wedding and Ammar, Morgan and Stuart have
0:25:48 > 0:25:51come to the bride's family home in Manchester, where proceedings begin.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55- That looks like number 29. I think this is the right house. - Yeah.- Yeah.- Yeah?
0:25:55 > 0:25:57What do you guys know about a Muslim wedding?
0:25:57 > 0:25:58I don't really know that much.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Absolutely nothing.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04I've never been to a Muslim wedding, so we'll see what happens.
0:26:04 > 0:26:08Here, the bride will sign the marriage contract called the "nikah".
0:26:08 > 0:26:11The bride and groom, Mahvish and Anwar,
0:26:11 > 0:26:13have opted for a traditional ceremony where they sign
0:26:13 > 0:26:18the nikah separately, so neither the groom nor his family are here.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21This is to make sure the bride feels no pressure
0:26:21 > 0:26:23and enters the marriage freely.
0:26:24 > 0:26:29The holy man, known as the imam, conducts the signing.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32He makes certain Mahvish understands what she's agreeing to
0:26:32 > 0:26:36and is happy to marry Anwar.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40HE SPEAKS HIS OWN LANGUAGE
0:26:43 > 0:26:45Once she's signed the contract,
0:26:45 > 0:26:47there are prayers to ask for Allah's blessing.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57Whilst the bride stays at home, the men head off to the mosque,
0:26:57 > 0:26:59where the groom is waiting.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03- Morgan, you need to go in that way, because that's the ladies' entrance. - Oh, so I've got to go that way, then?
0:27:03 > 0:27:06- Yeah, yeah. - I'll see you later, I guess.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08Morgan heads upstairs to the ladies' section.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13Women and men don't pray together in the mosque,
0:27:13 > 0:27:16because it's thought it would be distracting for the men.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18So Morgan watches from above.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22You've got, literally, a big wall between you and the actual ceremony.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25Yet the men were at the women's signing
0:27:25 > 0:27:27but the women aren't literally at the men's signing.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29We're kind of just watching from afar.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34Mahvish's imam is acting on her behalf.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37He gives permission for the marriage to proceed.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Then it's the groom's turn.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44Once he signs, the couple are officially married, according to Islam.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48I found it a little bit sexist, cos I did think, you know, if that was
0:27:48 > 0:27:52my brother, my son, or a male in my family, I'd want to be part of it.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56But yet to be in a separate room, it made me feel very different.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58The reason for that is because it was in a mosque
0:27:58 > 0:28:00and in a mosque you do need to be separate.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03I mean, I've been to other weddings where the bride has been asked
0:28:03 > 0:28:07and then the groom has been asked and then they're together when they were asked.
0:28:07 > 0:28:09So it's all about, you know, personal preference.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11It's the way the family want it done.
0:28:11 > 0:28:13It's the way the bride and groom want it done.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15How the imam was praying, what was,
0:28:15 > 0:28:17sort of, in the context of the prayers?
0:28:17 > 0:28:20He was just stressing how important marriage is
0:28:20 > 0:28:23and he was just talking about how, you know,
0:28:23 > 0:28:26the best person is the one who treats his wife the best.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29I think the beauty of it is, when someone's getting married in Islam,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32it's as if the whole community all share in that happiness
0:28:32 > 0:28:36and feel as though it was their own son or daughter getting married.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41At the wedding party, 500 guests have come to celebrate.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45But the bride and groom haven't met yet as husband and wife.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47The couple arrive separately.
0:28:49 > 0:28:53The drums herald the arrival of the groom,
0:28:53 > 0:28:57before he takes his place to anxiously await his bride.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Mahvish arrives and is whisked away to prepare for her big entrance.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07You look really nice.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09Oh, thank you. Today's not just a party.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11It's got a greater significance.
0:29:11 > 0:29:16Obviously, I'm completing half of my iman, my faith.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20Islam promotes getting married, so it is a very special day for me.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23The brothers of the bride
0:29:23 > 0:29:26and groom explain more about the significance of marriage in Islam.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30It's the way of our Prophet, peace be upon him, and also it's
0:29:30 > 0:29:34to pass on your family, so your family lineage continues.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37And it brings families together, so it unites people.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40So do you have to get married in Islam?
0:29:40 > 0:29:44It's stressed upon and it's encouraged and it's the way of our Prophet, peace be upon him.
0:29:44 > 0:29:46But if you're saying, "Do you have to do this before you die?"
0:29:46 > 0:29:50No, you don't have to do it before you die.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53Mahvish and Anwar have now been married for four hours,
0:29:53 > 0:29:55but still haven't met.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57And now they must wait whilst the imam reminds
0:29:57 > 0:30:01the guests about the relationship between a husband and wife.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05And the three beautiful ingredients Allah mentions, that he
0:30:05 > 0:30:12would like to see - tranquillity, love and mercy.
0:30:12 > 0:30:14So when you go back there this evening, would that be
0:30:14 > 0:30:18- the first time you've seen your husband since you've gotten married? - Yeah, that's right.
0:30:18 > 0:30:21- How do you think that will feel? Cos I know it's...- Nervous!- ..it's going to be different.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24- You've just got married... - Yeah, it will be different, yeah!
0:30:24 > 0:30:27Coming together as man and wife in front of everybody on that stage.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29I think it's a very special moment.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35At last, the big moment arrives.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38Mahvish and Anwar are together as husband and wife.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Their two families are now united and the couple look forward
0:30:43 > 0:30:46to spending the rest of their lives together.
0:30:49 > 0:30:53There may be many different ways to get hitched in Britain today.
0:30:53 > 0:30:57But will believing in God make a difference to a marriage? What do our group think?
0:30:57 > 0:30:59Well, that looked like a fantastic wedding.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02Ammar, is that a typical Pakistani Muslim wedding?
0:31:02 > 0:31:03Yeah, I would say it is.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06I mean, obviously, there were elements of culture in there.
0:31:06 > 0:31:07Obviously, the religious event is
0:31:07 > 0:31:09when you're actually signing the nikah.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13So, yeah, I would say that's a typical Asian-Pakistani wedding.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15Now, Imani, for some people who are watching,
0:31:15 > 0:31:18they might find it a little bit strange about the segregation.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20Would you have a segregated wedding when you get married?
0:31:20 > 0:31:23- Hmm? I've never really thought about it but...- Are you sure?
0:31:24 > 0:31:29Well, I've planned the whole wedding! Just don't have the guy.
0:31:29 > 0:31:34Erm, I think the nikah I would have separate but at my own house.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37I think the guy should be sat in a different room and I'll be sat
0:31:37 > 0:31:40in a different room and then we'll come together for the actual party.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43Stuart, what does marriage mean to the Catholic Church?
0:31:43 > 0:31:44Marriage is a sacrament,
0:31:44 > 0:31:47so a sacrament is an outward sign of an inward grace.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51It's the joining together of man and wife as one.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55So, as a Christian, it's really important that you have to get married in a church?
0:31:55 > 0:31:59Yeah, the church is the holy place and any sacrament in the church
0:31:59 > 0:32:02is performed in the church and nowhere else.
0:32:02 > 0:32:06And is that the same for Islam?
0:32:06 > 0:32:07Er, marriage can take place anywhere.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10This roots from the idea that God is all-seeing.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13He's present in every place that you go.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16But what is wrong with just living together?
0:32:16 > 0:32:18I think, obviously, you should be careful
0:32:18 > 0:32:21of how many partners you have and I don't think
0:32:21 > 0:32:26you should take those relationships too lightly before you're married.
0:32:26 > 0:32:30But I don't think it's wrong to go out with a couple of different
0:32:30 > 0:32:34people and, you know, try before you buy, erm...
0:32:34 > 0:32:37- Andrew, you're a good-looking lad... - Oh, thanks!
0:32:37 > 0:32:41- I'm always here to compliment. Do you think it will just be... - You, too!
0:32:41 > 0:32:44Do you think it will be just you and one woman?
0:32:44 > 0:32:47Personally, I'm looking forward to just committing to that one person.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50I don't really feel a need to, kind of, have multiple partners.
0:32:50 > 0:32:55I think that it loses its...the genuineness
0:32:55 > 0:32:58and the uniqueness of the relationship.
0:32:58 > 0:33:03So Christians and Muslims believe that God gives sex as a wedding present, in a way?
0:33:03 > 0:33:05Yeah, it's like a gift that God has given
0:33:05 > 0:33:08and he's specifically designed it for marriage.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10So in Genesis he talks about how two become one.
0:33:10 > 0:33:14So, as well as having spiritual meaning, it makes sense in the physical.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17Like you don't want to be sleeping around cos there's
0:33:17 > 0:33:19the risk of STDs and having children all over the shop.
0:33:19 > 0:33:23It makes sense for sex to be within marriage and it's sacred and it's a gift.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26When it's outside of marriage, it can lose its beauty and its value.
0:33:26 > 0:33:32I don't necessarily think it's...important to be married,
0:33:32 > 0:33:36erm, but for me it's about the values, like faithfulness
0:33:36 > 0:33:37and being supportive.
0:33:37 > 0:33:40People who... I think people take it too lightly these days.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44But isn't that what marriage does? It makes you take those vows seriously.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47The danger when you're not under the institution of marriage is
0:33:47 > 0:33:50that you leave that person and you go
0:33:50 > 0:33:52and start a relationship with someone else.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55And, for a Christian, doing that is like splitting your spirit
0:33:55 > 0:33:58between two or three, four, whatever, amount of people.
0:33:58 > 0:34:03You know, sometimes relationships don't work.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07From the Muslim point of view, what do you think about divorce?
0:34:07 > 0:34:09These days people don't work hard
0:34:09 > 0:34:12enough on the relationship that they want to develop.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15If one thing goes wrong, they tend to think divorce is the easy
0:34:15 > 0:34:18route out because they can't deal with a certain situation.
0:34:18 > 0:34:20The Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wasallam,
0:34:20 > 0:34:25said the lawful act that Allah hates the most is divorce.
0:34:25 > 0:34:28So that just signifies the importance of marriage,
0:34:28 > 0:34:30but in Islam divorce is permissible.
0:34:30 > 0:34:36I think this whole idea of frowning on divorce from any faith
0:34:36 > 0:34:40perspective can be really dangerous.
0:34:41 > 0:34:45There's so many men and women that are trapped in, erm,
0:34:45 > 0:34:50horrible...horrible marriages that are scared to get divorces
0:34:50 > 0:34:54and they'll keep on going through marital abuse
0:34:54 > 0:34:58and things like this, because they're so scared from...culturally
0:34:58 > 0:35:03and a faith-based perspective - erm, what people will think of them,
0:35:03 > 0:35:05what God's going to think of them.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,
0:35:08 > 0:35:10was actually married to a woman who was divorced.
0:35:10 > 0:35:14I think that was quite relevant at a time when they used to think that
0:35:14 > 0:35:18women who are divorced shouldn't be respected like other women are.
0:35:18 > 0:35:23I think the Prophet, as a sign of respect, actually married a divorced woman.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26Thank you all very much for your comments.
0:35:26 > 0:35:27So what do you think?
0:35:27 > 0:35:29Will one lover last you a lifetime,
0:35:29 > 0:35:33or will your partnership be made stronger with or without God?
0:35:43 > 0:35:47One subject that's guaranteed to cause controversy amongst people
0:35:47 > 0:35:52of faith is sexual relationships and, particularly, homosexuality.
0:35:52 > 0:35:55Many Christians and Muslims take parts of the Bible and Koran
0:35:55 > 0:36:01as evidence that sex between two men or two women goes against God's law.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03Others take a more liberal reading of these texts but,
0:36:03 > 0:36:06for generations, it's been a testy topic.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11For decades, people have campaigned for gay rights.
0:36:11 > 0:36:15Before 1967, homosexuality was a crime.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19Almost half a century later,
0:36:19 > 0:36:22Parliament passed a law to allow gay people to marry.
0:36:24 > 0:36:25However, the Church of England
0:36:25 > 0:36:30and Church of Wales are exempt from performing same-sex marriages.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33Even though the law recognises the rights of homosexuals,
0:36:33 > 0:36:38some religions still struggle to accept same-sex relationships.
0:36:38 > 0:36:40We've gathered 12 students together with different
0:36:40 > 0:36:44perspectives on the subject and sent three of them to find out more.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48I'm Imani. I'm 20 and I'm studying pharmacy.
0:36:50 > 0:36:53This is my parents' shop. The shop is named after me.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55In Arabic "imani" means faith.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58Islam was something that was instilled in me
0:36:58 > 0:37:03from a very young age but it's also something that I feel within myself.
0:37:03 > 0:37:04In Islam, it is wrong to be homosexual,
0:37:04 > 0:37:07but I, personally, am not homophobic.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10I'm Stuart. I'm 19.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14I'm studying religious studies at Lancaster University.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17In the future, I hope to train for the Catholic priesthood.
0:37:17 > 0:37:20It will be a fantastic opportunity to serve people.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23As a priest, I'll have to live a celibate life.
0:37:23 > 0:37:25It is a sacrifice
0:37:25 > 0:37:28but something that I'm prepared to do for the service of God.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35My name's Harry. I'm 19 years old and I'm studying theology
0:37:35 > 0:37:38and religious studies at the University of Leeds.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40I love making music and writing songs
0:37:40 > 0:37:42and doing gigs in my spare time.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47I'd describe myself as an agnostic but I do think there is some
0:37:47 > 0:37:49sort of spiritual thing, I'm just not really sure what that is.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53I would say that the rules and regulations of some religions
0:37:53 > 0:37:55is what makes them not very accessible to me.
0:38:02 > 0:38:05Imani, Harry and Stuart have come to London, where the
0:38:05 > 0:38:08Metropolitan Community Church meets every Sunday.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12They hold services especially for people who are lesbian, gay,
0:38:12 > 0:38:17bisexual and transgender, or LGBT, for short.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22They're here to take part in a religious service with a difference.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24This is the first time I've been to a church.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27I don't know what to expect but I think it will be quite interesting.
0:38:27 > 0:38:31Yeah, and being part of the gay community, this is something that I've never been to before.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33As a Catholic, this is going be something completely
0:38:33 > 0:38:35different to what I'm used to as well.
0:38:35 > 0:38:37- Shall we go inside?- Yes.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45The denomination was set up in America about 40 years ago
0:38:45 > 0:38:48to provide a place of worship for anyone who feels
0:38:48 > 0:38:50excluded from their own churches.
0:38:52 > 0:38:53Good evening, everybody,
0:38:53 > 0:38:57and welcome to Metropolitan Community Church of North London.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01It's wonderful to see all your beautiful faces here tonight.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05The Reverend Sharon Ferguson has led the congregation since 2008.
0:39:07 > 0:39:11My belief is that there is nothing in the Bible that says
0:39:11 > 0:39:15that it is wrong for two people of the same gender to love one another.
0:39:15 > 0:39:16In my heart of hearts,
0:39:16 > 0:39:19I believe that God made each
0:39:19 > 0:39:22and every one of us and we're all beloved children of God
0:39:22 > 0:39:25and that God is...is bigger than...than all of this.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28And God is not hung up about sexuality.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31And in the same way as God made more than two types of tree,
0:39:31 > 0:39:34I believe God made more than two types of sexuality as well.
0:39:34 > 0:39:36God is very creative.
0:39:36 > 0:39:41The church is a safe haven for some members of the congregation.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43Marie and Mable had to flee Uganda
0:39:43 > 0:39:46because they were persecuted for being gay.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50Hear, O God, when I cry aloud. Be gracious to me...
0:39:50 > 0:39:55There, homosexuality is illegal and can mean life imprisonment.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58While I was in school I was dating my girlfriend.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02They found us, so I was expelled and I was taken to prison.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05I faced a lot of torture while I was in prison
0:40:05 > 0:40:07and I managed to get out of there.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09My life in Uganda was typically finished.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11You cannot get a job anywhere.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15Even when you go to the clinics and you're a lesbian, oh boy, you can't get treatment.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17And if you're caught being gay, you don't have a
0:40:17 > 0:40:19chance to be taken to the police station.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22Normal people, the public, are going to deal with you.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24- They either burn you with tyres... - Yes.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28Or they're going to pour hot water on you, anything.
0:40:28 > 0:40:29The public can use sticks.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32By the time the police come, you're dead.
0:40:33 > 0:40:38In Uganda, the aggressive homophobia even extended into the churches.
0:40:38 > 0:40:39Pleased to meet you.
0:40:40 > 0:40:45When you go to churches and they're telling you, "You're being gay.
0:40:45 > 0:40:49"You're trying to be a devil and your destiny is in hell."
0:40:49 > 0:40:50Well, I stopped going to church.
0:40:50 > 0:40:54And then when I got here, somebody told me about the LGBT church.
0:40:55 > 0:40:57I thought it was a joke.
0:40:57 > 0:41:00They told me, no matter who you are, God still loves you.
0:41:00 > 0:41:05This is what I'm trying to do - is reconcile who am I with religion.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07LGBT church has helped me.
0:41:07 > 0:41:12God wants you to be yourself and be yourself in a Christ-like,
0:41:12 > 0:41:14loving, God-honouring way.
0:41:16 > 0:41:20If you are gay, God asked you to be a gay person who is faithful
0:41:20 > 0:41:23and honest and trustworthy in your relationships
0:41:23 > 0:41:27and have relationships that reflect God's love.
0:41:27 > 0:41:33Not every church thinks the same and some consider homosexuality a sin.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37The Catholic Church has teachings known as catechisms.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40The catechism says that homosexuals should be treated with respect,
0:41:40 > 0:41:43compassion and dignity, and all unjust
0:41:43 > 0:41:47discrimination in their regard should be avoided, and that gay,
0:41:47 > 0:41:50lesbian and transgendered people are called to remain celibate.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54Do you think that's a fair position to stand at?
0:41:54 > 0:41:57Not the current Pope, but the Pope beforehand,
0:41:57 > 0:42:00actually said that we were all morally disordered.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03How accepted and respected would you feel
0:42:03 > 0:42:06if you were told that you are disordered?
0:42:07 > 0:42:12That doesn't smack to me very much of acceptance and love and respect.
0:42:12 > 0:42:14The Catholic Church is saying,
0:42:14 > 0:42:17"If you're not heterosexual, then you've got to be celibate."
0:42:17 > 0:42:20Human beings are not made to be celibate
0:42:20 > 0:42:25and therefore to impose celibacy onto people against their will,
0:42:25 > 0:42:29again, I don't believe is a loving thing to do.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32In Islam, we believe that God created man
0:42:32 > 0:42:34and woman in order to procreate.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38That's not possible if a man and a man are together, or a woman
0:42:38 > 0:42:39and a woman are together.
0:42:39 > 0:42:43Do you not think that goes against the laws of nature?
0:42:43 > 0:42:46My understanding is that God didn't actually create human beings to procreate.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49God created human beings to love.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52So I feel it's trying to force something on God that
0:42:52 > 0:42:55actually isn't there.
0:43:05 > 0:43:09So is homosexuality just two people who love each other, or is it
0:43:09 > 0:43:11a sin against God?
0:43:11 > 0:43:13Harry, Stuart and Imani are back
0:43:13 > 0:43:15from the Metropolitan Community Church in London.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17And I'm immediately going to go to you, Stuart,
0:43:17 > 0:43:21because you felt quite uncomfortable in that service, didn't you?
0:43:21 > 0:43:25Yeah, it was something that is completely different to what
0:43:25 > 0:43:26I'm used to, being a Catholic.
0:43:26 > 0:43:31What was being said was what suited, not what should be heard or
0:43:31 > 0:43:34what God wants but what the people there wanted to hear.
0:43:34 > 0:43:38And, Harry, is it good that there's a special congregation for gay and lesbian people?
0:43:38 > 0:43:41It seemed to provide them with some form of safe haven really
0:43:41 > 0:43:43where they could practise their faith
0:43:43 > 0:43:46in a situation where they were comfortable with it.
0:43:46 > 0:43:48So I think, yeah, it is a good thing for them.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51We saw two Ugandan lesbians fleeing from their country
0:43:51 > 0:43:55because of the persecution of their sexuality. What did you think of that?
0:43:55 > 0:43:59I thought the fact that they were being persecuted, in this day
0:43:59 > 0:44:01and age, is quite barbaric,
0:44:01 > 0:44:05because I think it's a personal choice that you make.
0:44:05 > 0:44:10I mean, I, personally, don't believe that it's right to be that
0:44:10 > 0:44:14way inclined, to be gay or lesbian, transgender or bisexual.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16So it's OK to be gay, but you can't practise it?
0:44:16 > 0:44:22Islam accepts that people can be gay but only if you act upon
0:44:22 > 0:44:26those desires and that feeling, does it become a sin.
0:44:26 > 0:44:30I think if a person is attracted to someone of the same sex,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33that is a test from God for that person.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36They're getting rewarded for that, for holding back their desire,
0:44:36 > 0:44:38because they love God.
0:44:38 > 0:44:42Very much similar to what Imani said,
0:44:42 > 0:44:46the Church doesn't teach that homosexuality in itself is wrong.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50It's acting upon the homosexual desires that are wrong.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Rachel, do you believe homosexuality is a sin?
0:44:53 > 0:44:55Erm, no. I don't think I do.
0:44:55 > 0:44:58I think they should be able to love who they want to love.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01Homosexuality is wrong and it is a sin.
0:45:01 > 0:45:06It is according to the Bible. I mean, that's what St Paul teaches us in his Epistles.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09But just saying that homosexuality is wrong doesn't mean I should
0:45:09 > 0:45:13discriminate or segregate people who are practising homosexuality.
0:45:13 > 0:45:16I sin, I just sin in other ways.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19There's a book of Leviticus in the Old Testament
0:45:19 > 0:45:22that prohibits homosexuality.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24By the way, it says it's an abomination
0:45:24 > 0:45:27and should be punished by stoning to death.
0:45:27 > 0:45:31It also says that eating shellfish is an abomination
0:45:31 > 0:45:33and should be punished in the same way.
0:45:33 > 0:45:37I just want to ask this question, would God or Allah create people
0:45:37 > 0:45:41who were gay if he didn't think that was the right way to live?
0:45:42 > 0:45:45I don't think God creates anyone homosexual or not.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48I think it's kind of a build-up of environmental factors or
0:45:48 > 0:45:49the way they were brought up.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53People have all manners of sexual perversions.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56- They can either act on that or not. - I don't believe that it is a choice.
0:45:56 > 0:45:58I believe that you're born...that's the way that you're born.
0:45:58 > 0:46:04And I completely understand that quite a lot of you won't mean to cause, like, to cause upset,
0:46:04 > 0:46:07but to hear words like perversion mixed in with that is
0:46:07 > 0:46:10something that is so dangerous on vulnerable young people.
0:46:10 > 0:46:14Quite a lot of religions preach love and peace.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16To me, that's just another contradiction.
0:46:16 > 0:46:18Has anyone here, in their own experience
0:46:18 > 0:46:22and personal experience, being around gays and lesbians,
0:46:22 > 0:46:24changed their own personal, moral views?
0:46:24 > 0:46:26Before starting college,
0:46:26 > 0:46:30I didn't really interact with people who were gay.
0:46:30 > 0:46:32But once I started college, you know,
0:46:32 > 0:46:35they are quite a few people who are gay.
0:46:35 > 0:46:37And, you know, just talking with them,
0:46:37 > 0:46:39they're just normal human beings.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42You treat them with respect, you treat them with dignity,
0:46:42 > 0:46:43as you would any other human being.
0:46:43 > 0:46:47What my main thought about it is, is that it's too big an issue.
0:46:47 > 0:46:51I think we've escalated it into something huge that it doesn't need to be.
0:46:51 > 0:46:54I think it's like it comes in the same category as things
0:46:54 > 0:46:57like sex before marriage and sexual immorality, just in general.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59I don't think homosexuality should be isolated.
0:46:59 > 0:47:01Thank you all for your comments.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04So if God loves everyone, why do religions seem
0:47:04 > 0:47:06so anti-gay sometimes?
0:47:06 > 0:47:08Should they change? What's your view?
0:47:22 > 0:47:24Everybody knows we're all going to die,
0:47:24 > 0:47:28but what happens after death is a subject of great debate.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31Most religious people believe in an afterlife.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34For them, it's a real comfort to know that one day they'll be
0:47:34 > 0:47:36reunited with their loved ones.
0:47:37 > 0:47:41Christians believe that to get to heaven you need to accept
0:47:41 > 0:47:43Jesus as your saviour.
0:47:43 > 0:47:47For Muslims, too, faith is important but whether you go to
0:47:47 > 0:47:52paradise or hell also depends on how Allah judges you've lived your life.
0:47:53 > 0:47:58Most non-believers are sure that when we die, that's it, the end.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03We've gathered a group of young people together
0:48:03 > 0:48:06and sent three of them off to find out how people who don't
0:48:06 > 0:48:09believe in an afterlife deal with death.
0:48:11 > 0:48:16I'm Amina. I'm 18 years old and I'm looking to do law at university.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20I've always loved being a Muslim, but it only became
0:48:20 > 0:48:23part of my identity when I was about 15 years of age.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27My certainty that there is a life after death gives me hope.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30Islam is not simply about belief. It's a complete way of life.
0:48:32 > 0:48:33I'm David.
0:48:33 > 0:48:38I'm 19 and I study physics with astrophysics at the University of Leeds.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42I consider myself to be an anti-theist,
0:48:42 > 0:48:46which means I think that all religions are man-made.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49I think it's really important to search for the truth.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51Religion was our first attempt at explaining the universe,
0:48:51 > 0:48:55but now science offers much better explanations.
0:48:55 > 0:48:57As long as people are scared of death,
0:48:57 > 0:49:00they're going to want to believe in an afterlife.
0:49:02 > 0:49:05I'm Sarah. I'm 21 and I'm studying French
0:49:05 > 0:49:08and international relations at the University of Warwick.
0:49:08 > 0:49:12I made a personal commitment to being a Christian when I was 14.
0:49:12 > 0:49:16I believe there is an afterlife. I believe in heaven and hell.
0:49:16 > 0:49:18It brings me joy and hope to know that
0:49:18 > 0:49:21I can look forward to an eternity with God.
0:49:25 > 0:49:30Amina, Sarah and David have come to Golders Green crematorium in London
0:49:30 > 0:49:35to attend the non-religious funeral of a man called Bryan Butler.
0:49:35 > 0:49:39A ceremony without God is a thought-provoking prospect.
0:49:39 > 0:49:42Today will be a really good experience for me, cos I've actually never been to a funeral.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45Yeah, it will be interesting to see, cos the funeral I've been
0:49:45 > 0:49:47to before was sort of God-centred.
0:49:47 > 0:49:51Well, in Islam, we believe that the human body is a gift from God
0:49:51 > 0:49:54and, just like it was received from God, it should be returned the way it was.
0:49:54 > 0:49:56So, basically, we bury the body when it's dead.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59In Christian tradition, you can either have a burial or
0:49:59 > 0:50:03a cremation but I guess the main focus is what happens after you die.
0:50:06 > 0:50:09Bryan's family wanted his last journey to be special.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14He was an aviation enthusiast,
0:50:14 > 0:50:18so his custom coffin flies in to the sound of Lancaster bombers.
0:50:22 > 0:50:26The funeral is conducted by Jill Satin, a humanist celebrant.
0:50:27 > 0:50:29Bryan was an atheist
0:50:29 > 0:50:34and it was his wish that his funeral be a humanist celebration of life
0:50:34 > 0:50:38to reflect Bryan's bond with a human community of which he was a part.
0:50:38 > 0:50:42As humanists, we believe we need to make the most of the one life
0:50:42 > 0:50:46we have. We are all members of one human community
0:50:46 > 0:50:49and a full life is built on caring for ourselves,
0:50:49 > 0:50:53for each other and for the world in which we live.
0:50:53 > 0:50:56It is through our relationships and our personal achievements
0:50:56 > 0:50:59that something of us lives on after our death.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04Could you roughly explain what is meant by humanism?
0:51:04 > 0:51:07As humanists we believe that we have one life.
0:51:07 > 0:51:12It's our responsibility to live in society and caring for people
0:51:12 > 0:51:15in our world in a compassionate way, but also being
0:51:15 > 0:51:19responsible for our own actions first and then those of others.
0:51:19 > 0:51:23Most humanists are atheist and they don't believe in an afterlife.
0:51:23 > 0:51:27Today, we will hear some of the stories of his family's life
0:51:27 > 0:51:32memories from Bryan and his full and rewarding, exciting life.
0:51:32 > 0:51:36My friend Bryan Butler was a cracker of a human being.
0:51:36 > 0:51:41For make no mistake, Bryan was a man of deep passion.
0:51:41 > 0:51:43Bryan had some wonderful Australian adventures with David
0:51:43 > 0:51:46when he came to visit us in Sydney.
0:51:46 > 0:51:48Most of these involved the two of them getting lost
0:51:48 > 0:51:51in some God-forsaken part of the outback of New South Wales.
0:51:51 > 0:51:54No-one was going to tell Bryan Butler why he loved,
0:51:54 > 0:51:58where he loved or what he loved.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01Working-class heroes... Sorry.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10As the ceremony ends, Bryan's coffin goes off to be cremated.
0:52:16 > 0:52:19I thought it was a really beautiful ceremony but, obviously,
0:52:19 > 0:52:22even though I really appreciated the sentiment and the emotion
0:52:22 > 0:52:25and, kind of, learning about the life he lived,
0:52:25 > 0:52:28it was...it was sort of weird having that without God
0:52:28 > 0:52:31and without there, sort of, being a hope for the afterlife.
0:52:31 > 0:52:36Cos I guess I believe that there is no kind of meaning without God in this life.
0:52:37 > 0:52:41After the ceremony, our three meet Bryan's daughter and her partner.
0:52:42 > 0:52:45The ceremony was actually quite amazing.
0:52:45 > 0:52:47It was really emotional and touching.
0:52:47 > 0:52:52Erm, is there a specific reason to why you chose a humanist funeral?
0:52:52 > 0:52:56My father wasn't a religious man at all. He was an atheist.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59He was interested in religious philosophy but he was not
0:52:59 > 0:53:03a believer in God or the afterlife, so there was no question.
0:53:03 > 0:53:08It would not have been right to have had a religiously based ceremony for him.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11I don't want to say that one sort of funeral is better than another
0:53:11 > 0:53:14but, for us, it was really about him
0:53:14 > 0:53:19and I think we feel very comfortable about that.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22So as a Christian, obviously, I believe in the afterlife
0:53:22 > 0:53:24and it's something I feel quite certain of.
0:53:24 > 0:53:26What would you say is
0:53:26 > 0:53:30the reason behind your certainty that there isn't an afterlife?
0:53:30 > 0:53:35Lack of evidence. I envy you your certainty.
0:53:35 > 0:53:39And I respect that, too, but I don't share it at the moment.
0:53:43 > 0:53:47So is there an afterlife or are religious people deluded?
0:53:47 > 0:53:50Our students have lots of opinions.
0:53:50 > 0:53:52David, what did you think about the ceremony?
0:53:52 > 0:53:54The ceremony was really nice, yeah.
0:53:54 > 0:53:55If there's no religion in a funeral,
0:53:55 > 0:53:59then it's entirely about the deceased and you really felt
0:53:59 > 0:54:03like you got to get a bit of a feel for what Bryan was like as a person.
0:54:03 > 0:54:07Yeah. I wanted to just start off by asking what you think happens after death.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10Sarah, do you want to start?
0:54:10 > 0:54:12Yeah, so as a Christian, my belief is that
0:54:12 > 0:54:15when you die there is an afterlife and there is an eternity
0:54:15 > 0:54:19and if you believe in Jesus, that eternity will be spent with God.
0:54:19 > 0:54:22And there are scriptures about it in the New Testament,
0:54:22 > 0:54:25where Jesus tells us that he's preparing rooms for us.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27Sow it's kind of a hope that we have while we're living in this
0:54:27 > 0:54:30Earth that there is something to come, something that's even
0:54:30 > 0:54:33better, where they'll be no pain or suffering, or sorrow.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35And what about you, Amina? What do Muslims believe?
0:54:35 > 0:54:40Erm, in the Koran it mentions that after we die it is
0:54:40 > 0:54:44both a physical and a spiritual resurrection.
0:54:44 > 0:54:49Two angels, they're named Munkar and Nakir, will come to the dead
0:54:49 > 0:54:51and they will ask them three questions.
0:54:51 > 0:54:53The first will be, "Who is your Lord?"
0:54:53 > 0:54:57The second will be, "What is your religion?" and "Who is your Prophet?"
0:54:57 > 0:55:00And if the questions are answered according to the
0:55:00 > 0:55:03teachings of the Koran and the Hadiths,
0:55:03 > 0:55:06then the person will be guaranteed a place in heaven.
0:55:06 > 0:55:08Those who disbelieved in the creator,
0:55:08 > 0:55:11or disbelieved in his creation, are guaranteed a place in hell.
0:55:11 > 0:55:14OK. Do you ever doubt this?
0:55:14 > 0:55:17- No.- You believe in it 100%? - Yes, 100%.
0:55:17 > 0:55:20So where's he going to go? Where's Bryan going?
0:55:21 > 0:55:24Well, I can't say. I'm not God.
0:55:24 > 0:55:27Only God can judge, so I can't judge where Bryan's going.
0:55:27 > 0:55:32God is all just. He will judge everyone equally, so we'll see on the Day of Judgment.
0:55:32 > 0:55:38There's no reason or evidence to believe in an afterlife and,
0:55:38 > 0:55:44erm, in my honest opinion, it, sort of...it says a bit about, er,
0:55:44 > 0:55:49this God if he only lets people who believe in him come to heaven.
0:55:49 > 0:55:51I want to go to Rachel.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54Has anything surprised you from what you've heard?
0:55:54 > 0:55:59Erm, well, for me personally, I don't believe in a hell,
0:55:59 > 0:56:01so listening to the other Christians and Muslims
0:56:01 > 0:56:04speaking about an all-loving God sending
0:56:04 > 0:56:09somebody to hell is a concept that I wouldn't hold, because I think
0:56:09 > 0:56:13that whatever your background is, whatever religion you are or not,
0:56:13 > 0:56:17I think that everyone will go to a heaven but it will just
0:56:17 > 0:56:22be a different experience for you, depending on what beliefs you hold.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25So, Andrew, how do you imagine heaven?
0:56:25 > 0:56:29I think, for me, heaven is endless joy, endless peace.
0:56:29 > 0:56:35Heaven is a choice and if you decide on Earth not to follow
0:56:35 > 0:56:40God, then God's not going to force you to spend eternity with him.
0:56:40 > 0:56:44Obviously, as Christians, we believe in heaven and hell.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47But I think hell is more a place for those who haven't accepted
0:56:47 > 0:56:48God in their lives.
0:56:48 > 0:56:50I think the whole idea that if you believe in him,
0:56:50 > 0:56:53you'll go to heaven and if you don't believe in him,
0:56:53 > 0:56:56you'll go to hell, rather than it being about being a good
0:56:56 > 0:57:02moral person or a bad moral person - it makes God sound a bit...
0:57:02 > 0:57:05- A bit like a dictator? - Totalitarian, yeah.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08You know, as a Muslim, obviously, belief in God
0:57:08 > 0:57:11and faith comes first but, after that, it's all
0:57:11 > 0:57:13about your treatment of other people
0:57:13 > 0:57:15and how you treat other people.
0:57:15 > 0:57:17And I think that's... After faith,
0:57:17 > 0:57:19of course, faith needs to come first but after, I think
0:57:19 > 0:57:23what will get a person to paradise is his treatment of others.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27Harry, not believing in an afterlife, does that make you more fearful?
0:57:27 > 0:57:30The thought that there is no afterlife can be quite
0:57:30 > 0:57:31a depressing, sad thought,
0:57:31 > 0:57:36but then I also think it's important to take into account that it can
0:57:36 > 0:57:39also be quite a frightening thought if you are religious as well.
0:57:39 > 0:57:42Erm, you've got quite a tortuous idea of hell,
0:57:42 > 0:57:44which can be frightening for some,
0:57:44 > 0:57:47especially if that's being taught to young children.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50So is it that fear, that scary thing you're talking about,
0:57:50 > 0:57:55that sort of makes you do good deeds, to make him happy?
0:57:55 > 0:57:59It's not something like, "Oh, because I'm scared of God,"
0:57:59 > 0:58:02or "Because I'm scared of Allah, that's why I do things."
0:58:02 > 0:58:04That is completely wrong.
0:58:04 > 0:58:07We Muslims, as individuals, as a collective individual,
0:58:07 > 0:58:11we should do stuff out of our good character and good nature.
0:58:11 > 0:58:14For me, as a Muslim, I believe that this life
0:58:14 > 0:58:16is a preparation for the next.
0:58:16 > 0:58:19And whether you believe or not in God or an afterlife,
0:58:19 > 0:58:22that's regardless of who you are as a person.
0:58:22 > 0:58:25It's your good deeds and your bad deeds that count.
0:58:25 > 0:58:27It's who you are in this life.
0:58:27 > 0:58:31Obviously, as a Catholic, I believe that before we go into heaven
0:58:31 > 0:58:33we do go to purgatory first,
0:58:33 > 0:58:38where God judges us on our good deeds and our bad deeds.
0:58:38 > 0:58:42And it's a place of purification and from there we go on to heaven.
0:58:42 > 0:58:45Thank you all for your comments. They've been really, really interesting
0:58:45 > 0:58:48and let's hope we all don't face death too soon.
0:58:48 > 0:58:52So when you die, will you be at the pearly gates,
0:58:52 > 0:58:53or will you simply be left in a coffin?