0:00:25 > 0:00:28I was born in Zwickau, which is in Eastern Germany.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30There's quite a big mountain range which separates
0:00:30 > 0:00:32Germany from the Czech Republic,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36and these are called the Erzgebirge, the Copper Mountains.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38My father took us all over
0:00:38 > 0:00:42the mountains, leaving everything behind, and went to Prague.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46Hitler marched into Prague in March 1939.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48My father realised he's on a wanted list.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51So he left my mother and went to Poland.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56It was extremely difficult for my mother to be left alone with
0:00:56 > 0:00:58two small children.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00Street by street, Jews were cleared
0:01:00 > 0:01:04and, any moment, it was probably our turn.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08My mother, she must have had a will of iron and great courage.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12She went from one embassy to another, queued up all night.
0:01:12 > 0:01:18And if she ever got to the desk, they said to her, "We will take you,
0:01:18 > 0:01:20"but we can't take your two children."
0:01:20 > 0:01:24And my mother wouldn't separate us. So she hung on to us.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28The only thing she could think of was to hope somebody would
0:01:28 > 0:01:30take her and the children.
0:01:30 > 0:01:35She was rejected by everyone. But then, the miracle happened.
0:01:36 > 0:01:41A knock on the door meant death, because it meant deportation.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45But for us, a knock on the door was the beginning of a new life
0:01:45 > 0:01:49because we opened the door to a woman from the British Embassy
0:01:49 > 0:01:52who had braved the curfew.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55She brought the entry visa to Britain,
0:01:55 > 0:02:00train tickets to get through Germany, through Holland
0:02:00 > 0:02:02and a ferry to Ramsgate.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04BUT she did not have an exit visa.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08You were supposed to have an exit visa to cross borders.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10And she said, "You'll just have to say you're going to see
0:02:10 > 0:02:12"family in Holland
0:02:12 > 0:02:15"and take nothing with you that could possibly show anyone
0:02:15 > 0:02:17"that you're going for more than a day."
0:02:17 > 0:02:20We made it through Czechoslovakia without any problem,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23and we got on the train in Germany.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27Sat down, thinking, "Good, we've got a carriage to ourselves,"
0:02:27 > 0:02:32when an SS Officer came and sat next to her.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34He was trying to chat her up.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37And he realised what was going on and he couldn't help us.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41But the fact that he sat there, now that might have been her salvation.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48Off we went to the hook of Holland and got on a ferry to Ramsgate.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52On the ferry, I kept saying, "When are we going to be in England?"
0:02:52 > 0:02:53My mother got really fed up of me,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57she said, "When it starts raining, you'll know you're in England."
0:02:57 > 0:02:59So...!
0:02:59 > 0:03:03As I was on the train, it began raining.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07And I must have been the only person there who was just totally
0:03:07 > 0:03:10thrilled, because I knew I was in England.
0:03:11 > 0:03:18The next morning was Sunday, September 3rd 1939.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22As we arrived to Liverpool Street Station, I put my foot
0:03:22 > 0:03:26on the platform, suddenly, everything went quiet
0:03:26 > 0:03:30and there was a huge announcement on the loudspeaker
0:03:30 > 0:03:33and everybody stood, perfectly still.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37The announcement was Chamberlain, saying...
0:03:37 > 0:03:42"I am speaking to you from the Cabinet Room at 10 Downing Street.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48"This morning, the British Ambassador in Berlin
0:03:48 > 0:03:51"handed the German Government a final note
0:03:53 > 0:03:58"stating that unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock,
0:03:58 > 0:04:00"that they were prepared at once
0:04:00 > 0:04:03"to withdraw their troops from Poland,
0:04:03 > 0:04:06"a state of war would exist between us.
0:04:08 > 0:04:13"I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received,
0:04:14 > 0:04:20"and that, consequently, this country is at war with Germany."
0:04:21 > 0:04:25That was 11 o'clock, 3rd September 1939,
0:04:25 > 0:04:29as my foot hit the platform.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31And that was the beginning of the Second World War.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43The liberation of Belsen had been put on general
0:05:43 > 0:05:46release in every cinema and people were asked to go and see that.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48And of course, I went.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51There was no question of me being too young to see that sort of thing.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55And I was totally and absolutely horrified,
0:05:55 > 0:05:57as everyone was watching it.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01And I just felt terribly emotionally disturbed
0:06:01 > 0:06:05and the feeling was overwhelming.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09I just couldn't believe that these sort of things had happened
0:06:09 > 0:06:13and that my family had disappeared in that terrible way.
0:06:15 > 0:06:21I have never got over what I have learned about the Holocaust,
0:06:21 > 0:06:23and what I've read.
0:06:23 > 0:06:24I mean, if you look around this house,
0:06:24 > 0:06:27you'll see I've got a huge section in the next room
0:06:27 > 0:06:30of Holocaust literature, people who have written about the Holocaust.
0:06:30 > 0:06:38And everything I do, I believe, has an element that relates to it.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42Not voluntarily, it's something I can't help myself.
0:06:42 > 0:06:47For example, if I'm peeling potatoes, as I throw the potato peel
0:06:47 > 0:06:50away, I think about the girls in Auschwitz who
0:06:50 > 0:06:54looked for a bit of potato peel because they were starving.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57Another thing that's been left with me
0:06:57 > 0:07:00and my children and grandchildren always laugh about it -
0:07:00 > 0:07:02I'm terrified of being without food.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06In my car I always have something to eat.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10Now, I don't eat a great deal myself, but I always have water
0:07:10 > 0:07:12and I always have something to eat.
0:07:12 > 0:07:17And that is definitely a throwback to the fear of hunger.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21However much you can learn about history,
0:07:21 > 0:07:24and of course it is important to learn and to think you're not going
0:07:24 > 0:07:29to make the same mistakes again, the fact is we do, as human beings,
0:07:29 > 0:07:34as parents we make mistakes that we promise ourselves we will never do.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37I think human beings can't help it,
0:07:37 > 0:07:41the frailty of the human being is such that we do repeat mistakes.
0:07:41 > 0:07:47But I think, whatever people say about young people today,
0:07:47 > 0:07:50I think they are more tolerant.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54So maybe there is hope. I think humanity is getting better.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Hopefully I'm right.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30In 1938, when I was eight years old,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34there occurred what has become known as the Polenaktion.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39Early in the morning, we were all sleeping in our beds.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42The Nazis entered our flat.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44We were going to be taken away.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47We were put on board a train.
0:08:47 > 0:08:53We came to realise that we were all polish Jews.
0:08:53 > 0:08:58We were luckier than some, we had been taken as an entire family.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02Some of the people who had been separated, they didn't know
0:09:02 > 0:09:05whether they would ever see one another ever again.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09To make matters worse, there were people of all ages -
0:09:09 > 0:09:12babies, there were very old people,
0:09:12 > 0:09:17people who were ill, some had been taken out of hospital beds.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22Travelled for the rest of the day and after it got dark...
0:09:24 > 0:09:27..the train stopped and we were told to get off.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Outside the station, there were two rows of SS men.
0:09:33 > 0:09:34We were marched off.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38And the rumour went round that we were being taken to some
0:09:38 > 0:09:41remote place where we would all be shot.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45I did see people collapse through exhaustion,
0:09:45 > 0:09:50and I was left in no doubt about the brutality of these SS men.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54We marched for some hours.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57And then we were stopped at a railway line,
0:09:57 > 0:10:01and we were told that the SS men were not coming any further.
0:10:02 > 0:10:07It seems likely that this was, in fact, the Polish frontier.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11The SS Men wouldn't want to cross that at this particular stage,
0:10:11 > 0:10:14that could provoke an international incident.
0:10:16 > 0:10:20We were told that we would have to go on marching between the rails,
0:10:20 > 0:10:23because on either side there were ditches,
0:10:23 > 0:10:27and anybody who fell risked injury, not only from the fall,
0:10:27 > 0:10:29but also being trampled.
0:10:30 > 0:10:35Eventually, soldiers and police came and took us prisoner.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40What the Poles were trying to do was to force us back into Germany.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43The German authorities were ready for that
0:10:43 > 0:10:46and attempts to send us back failed.
0:10:46 > 0:10:51We managed to get to Krakow, where we had some relations,
0:10:51 > 0:10:53and we arrived on their doorstep.
0:10:54 > 0:10:59Round about the time that we went to Poland, Britain allowed children
0:10:59 > 0:11:04to be brought over, in what came to be known as the Kindertransport.
0:11:04 > 0:11:10I was very lucky to be one of the few to be rescued from Poland.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14I would have died with all the rest of my family if I hadn't been.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18I went to foster parents in Coventry.
0:11:20 > 0:11:25In the autumn of 1940, the so-called Blitz began.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29Coventry was one of the most severely bombed cities.
0:11:29 > 0:11:34We had 17 raids when a few bombs were dropped on the city.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38And then one night, we had a very big raid.
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Now, Home Office advice was that if you hadn't got an air-raid
0:11:42 > 0:11:46shelter, the safest part of the house was under the stairs.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50Under our stairs we had a small pantry.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53So we all crowded into that, foster parents,
0:11:53 > 0:11:56my sister and I and the dog.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00He was very vicious, he bit quite a few people.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03We tried to keep our distance but whenever a bomb came very near,
0:12:03 > 0:12:05the dog growled.
0:12:05 > 0:12:10And we were really afraid, all of us.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13We heard a very loud hissing sound
0:12:13 > 0:12:15and it was obvious the bomb was coming near.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18It landed just a few doors down.
0:12:19 > 0:12:24The next morning, when we emerged, the house had lost its doors
0:12:24 > 0:12:28and its windows and part of the roof.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32It's amazing that there were many small air raids,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35and generally speaking, people took them in their stride.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38But during these big air raids,
0:12:38 > 0:12:43I certainly felt very much afraid, and I don't think many people,
0:12:43 > 0:12:46if they are truthful, could say otherwise.
0:13:39 > 0:13:45Germany was a very, very advanced country.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48It's produced some of the world's finest musicians,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51some of the world's finest writers.
0:13:51 > 0:13:59It had made advances in human civilisation, in all its spheres,
0:13:59 > 0:14:04and so it is utterly amazing that a country which was
0:14:04 > 0:14:10so advanced should suddenly descend to barbarities, which really
0:14:10 > 0:14:17bear comparison with what was happening in the Middle Ages.
0:14:17 > 0:14:22There are some people who think, quite wrongly, that the
0:14:22 > 0:14:26study of history is a waste of time, that one should study things
0:14:26 > 0:14:30more to do with the present age, rather than study a bygone age.
0:14:30 > 0:14:36I don't agree with that at all, because first of all,
0:14:36 > 0:14:42the only way we can understand the present is by finding out how
0:14:42 > 0:14:45it came into being, as a result of the past.
0:14:45 > 0:14:50But, at least as importantly, perhaps even more so,
0:14:50 > 0:14:55is those who don't study history are destined to repeat it.
0:14:55 > 0:15:01And things which can happen once, can happen a second time.
0:15:01 > 0:15:07One must study the conditions which led up to them,
0:15:07 > 0:15:14and try to avoid the repetition of these dreadful things.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48Back in my school days, about 1938,
0:15:48 > 0:15:53I have a wonderful photograph, a class photograph of all of us here.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56It's something which is a great pleasure to look at,
0:15:56 > 0:15:58but also extremely sad.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02Because, unfortunately, the Germans killed many, many children.
0:16:02 > 0:16:04One and a half million innocent children were
0:16:04 > 0:16:07killed during the Holocaust.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11Why should innocent people, just because they were Jewish,
0:16:11 > 0:16:13be killed for no reason at all?
0:16:13 > 0:16:18And I look at these faces, I don't know who survived and who didn't.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20I only know that I survived.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24We had this radio in our dining room,
0:16:24 > 0:16:26and Father was often listening,
0:16:26 > 0:16:30but when he had the news on, you could hear this shouting,
0:16:30 > 0:16:34and that of course was the typical Hitler speech-making.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37Everybody was aware of this knock at the door
0:16:37 > 0:16:39and it always came during the night,
0:16:39 > 0:16:42when they came to take away people, either to take them
0:16:42 > 0:16:45to prison or to beat them up or whatever,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48and that fear was there all the time I was at home.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52You feel insecure, you don't feel at ease.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56You can't relax and you know that something is wrong.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59Germans didn't come into Czechoslovakia
0:16:59 > 0:17:03until 15th March 1939.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07And I realised that my parents were wanting to get the children
0:17:07 > 0:17:10away to safety.
0:17:10 > 0:17:15And my turn came, I left home on 28th March 1939.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19The only thing I really remember is getting into a taxi.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24I remember my mother and my father and my brother standing near me.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28But I cannot remember saying goodbye to them, I can't remember
0:17:28 > 0:17:31whether I hugged them, kissed them, whether I cried.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34I have absolutely no recollection whatsoever.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38We were travelling by train, through to London.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41But I ended up in Wallsend on Tyne,
0:17:41 > 0:17:45where a very kind family had offered to give me a home.
0:17:46 > 0:17:51I start getting homesick and I start feeling very, very poorly.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54Because A, I was missing my parents,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57B, I didn't speak one word of English.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59The food was totally different.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03I'd never eaten toast, porridge, kippers, marmalade,
0:18:03 > 0:18:05all these normal English things.
0:18:05 > 0:18:10And I just basically cried for as long as I stayed with them.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14From the age of nine, in those four years, in those war years,
0:18:14 > 0:18:17I lived with so many different people.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19I mean, I would think I must have been at least
0:18:19 > 0:18:22through 15 to 20 different places.
0:18:25 > 0:18:31I never saw my parents after 28th March 1939.
0:18:32 > 0:18:40Father, he was transported on 19th April 1942,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43and he was already dead by 8th May.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47My mother is a different story altogether.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52The last proper evidence I have that she was alive
0:18:52 > 0:18:56was when she was transported to a small concentration
0:18:56 > 0:18:59transportation camp near Bratislava, called Sered'.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04And I've been working for years and years to try and trace her.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08And I am almost at the end of the trail.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10I received some evidence
0:19:10 > 0:19:13from a testimony given by somebody in 1962,
0:19:13 > 0:19:18who could have been on the same transport that my mother
0:19:18 > 0:19:21was taken on and on a death march
0:19:21 > 0:19:24on which she would have been shot and killed.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30The impact on me is something which has never left me.
0:19:30 > 0:19:35Every single day I rue the destruction of my family.
0:19:35 > 0:19:40To me, family is the most important building brick for human beings
0:19:40 > 0:19:42and that's why I find it so hard today.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39Well, the Nazi occupation as such is difficult to define,
0:20:39 > 0:20:43because the Nazis only actually came in to Czechoslovakia
0:20:43 > 0:20:45two weeks before I left.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49Although from '33 onwards, we were aware of it in the family.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51Me, as a small child, I wasn't.
0:20:51 > 0:20:56I think the biggest impact on me is the fact that I've learned to
0:20:56 > 0:20:59stand on my own two feet and fight my own battles.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05I have not reached what I had set out to do,
0:21:05 > 0:21:09but looking backwards now, it doesn't really make any odds.
0:21:09 > 0:21:10I've been basically lucky.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13I had a decent husband, and I've got a family.
0:21:13 > 0:21:18Although, there's nobody here. And what can you expect?
0:21:18 > 0:21:20I consider,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23although many human beings like to think they're superior to animals,
0:21:23 > 0:21:27we are only an animal. We are basically robots.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29We can't control anything.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31We've just got to cope with what we've got.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33What's happiness, can you define it?
0:21:36 > 0:21:40I've not been... I haven't been happy in one sense.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43I've had moments when I have enjoyed life.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46If you're on your own you don't want to sit in your own four walls.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48What do you do? Nobody wants you.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50So you do voluntary work.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53And I'm a thorn in the side of most folks when I do voluntary work
0:21:53 > 0:21:56because I speak up for the people who have problems.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01I'm sure it has quite a lot to do with my history
0:22:01 > 0:22:05because I've no graves to go to, where are my parents,
0:22:05 > 0:22:09one God knows where, one in the ashes up in Auschwitz.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11Therefore, I also don't have a religious belief.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14I mean, one of the things which often comes into my mind -
0:22:14 > 0:22:16you know if we have a terrible accident,
0:22:16 > 0:22:18everybody prays for these people.
0:22:18 > 0:22:22How many millions and millions and millions of prayers have been
0:22:22 > 0:22:25said since religion and superstition came in?
0:22:25 > 0:22:26And we're no better.
0:22:28 > 0:22:33I think people are not aware of other people's experiences
0:22:33 > 0:22:36and how it can be hurtful or how it can be good.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40The other story which I could tell you is, the kindness of strangers.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42The number of people who have helped me,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45until I was able to stand on my own feet,
0:22:45 > 0:22:46is amazing.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18I do remember the day the Nazis came to power.
0:23:18 > 0:23:23I was almost 13. I remember looking down from our window.
0:23:23 > 0:23:28The Nazis always celebrated their successes by torchlight processions.
0:23:28 > 0:23:34And the Nazis marched past and sang songs, bloodthirsty songs.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38The Nuremberg Laws which came in, in the autumn of 35,
0:23:38 > 0:23:40legalised anti-Jewish measures.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44We were no longer allowed to go to cinemas and theatres
0:23:44 > 0:23:47and be members of clubs.
0:23:47 > 0:23:52As a child, of any age, to be excluded from your peers is a blow.
0:23:52 > 0:23:57You feel inferior and you question your existence.
0:23:57 > 0:24:02There were three Jewish boys, including me, left in the class.
0:24:02 > 0:24:04The main Hitler Youth leader came and said,
0:24:04 > 0:24:08"It's time you left the school, we don't want you here."
0:24:08 > 0:24:09I left school at 16.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12If it hadn't been for the Nazis, I probably would have gone to
0:24:12 > 0:24:15university, but we could no longer do that,
0:24:15 > 0:24:18because universities were no longer accepting Jews.
0:24:18 > 0:24:24At the age of 18 I went to Hamburg, to college, to learn English.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27In the evenings we got together and we heard the news -
0:24:27 > 0:24:30we knew something was going to happen.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34In Nuremberg, my parents were arrested, kept standing
0:24:34 > 0:24:38in the square in the centre of the town for about two hours.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40Were abused, spat upon.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42The Synagogue was set on fire.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46The women, the older people and the children were sent home.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49When my mother got home, about 4 o'clock in the morning,
0:24:49 > 0:24:51she rang where I was staying.
0:24:51 > 0:24:53She said, "Father's gone away."
0:24:53 > 0:24:57Which was code for, he's been arrested. "Get dressed.
0:24:57 > 0:24:58"Go for a walk."
0:25:01 > 0:25:04So, that's what I did. I sat on park benches.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07Then I went round the department stores.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10I tried to make myself small, not to stand out.
0:25:12 > 0:25:16I could see the smoke from the burning synagogues everywhere.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18I could also see groups of Jewish people
0:25:18 > 0:25:20being frogmarched through the streets.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24Windows were smashed.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28The Germans invented the term Kristallnacht,
0:25:28 > 0:25:30because of all the broken glass.
0:25:32 > 0:25:34Eventually I went home.
0:25:34 > 0:25:38The Landlady said, "The Gestapo has been for you."
0:25:38 > 0:25:40It's a good job that I did leave the digs,
0:25:40 > 0:25:44otherwise I would have been sent to a concentration camp.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46Father was arrested
0:25:46 > 0:25:49and then sent to Dachau concentration camp near Munich.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51He was there for five or six weeks.
0:25:51 > 0:25:56Most of the people were released just before Christmas '38.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59And then he came home and he was a really changed man.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05It was then quite obvious that there was no future for us
0:26:05 > 0:26:06in Germany.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11There was nowhere to go. No country wanted us.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15Frank, my brother, was in Leeds. He tried to very hard to get me
0:26:15 > 0:26:18a trainee post and finally succeeded.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20And I came to Leeds.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24We managed to get visas for our parents and they came.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27Thank God, because four days later, war broke out.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Well, the day war broke out,
0:26:30 > 0:26:33a policeman came, asking us to come down
0:26:33 > 0:26:35to report to police headquarters.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38We were registered as enemy aliens.
0:26:38 > 0:26:40Cameras and binoculars were impounded,
0:26:40 > 0:26:42which were considered spying equipment.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47Churchill was by then just become Prime Minister.
0:26:47 > 0:26:50And his civil servants famously asked him,
0:26:50 > 0:26:52"What shall we do with these enemy aliens?"
0:26:52 > 0:26:56And Churchill's words were, "Collar the lot."
0:26:56 > 0:26:59So we were interned, father, brother and me.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01Well, all of us felt a bit sore,
0:27:01 > 0:27:06because we were more opposed to the Nazis than the British natives were.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09We were kicked out there because we were Jewish.
0:27:09 > 0:27:11And we were interned here because we were German.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13We wanted to fight the Nazis
0:27:13 > 0:27:15and instead we were kept behind barbed wire.
0:28:15 > 0:28:19Survival is instinct, it's natural. Everybody has that.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24You try desperately to get out of Germany,
0:28:24 > 0:28:28which we eventually succeeded in.
0:28:28 > 0:28:35And, well, you know you are a survivor because you're there.
0:28:36 > 0:28:41Well, obviously my contemporaries who committed these
0:28:41 > 0:28:45atrocities are dreadful.
0:28:45 > 0:28:53But I'm concerned that I sometimes think what I would have been
0:28:53 > 0:28:54if I hadn't been Jewish.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Would I have been a Nazi? And I probably would.
0:28:59 > 0:29:04You know, it's very difficult for a 12, 13, 14-year-old to resist
0:29:04 > 0:29:08the temptations that the Nazis offered for kids of that age.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12Uniforms, campfires, learning to shoot rifles.
0:29:12 > 0:29:16Things like that that they did in the Hitler Youth.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20And it's very, very difficult for a kid of that age to resist
0:29:20 > 0:29:25that temptation and not be part of the crowd.
0:29:25 > 0:29:31It's a warning, I suppose, to people to be vigilant, not be bystanders.
0:29:31 > 0:29:37But to speak out if they encounter bad things or evil things.
0:29:40 > 0:29:46This is exactly what happened, Germans stood by and did nothing,
0:29:46 > 0:29:51and then sometimes were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler.
0:29:52 > 0:29:57So, that is the warning, you keep constant vigilance.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30I was 14. In the wagon was only a very small window.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32It was hot.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35We were so cramped, we couldn't even sit down.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39Some people had some water, and some people didn't.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41After two days and one night,
0:30:41 > 0:30:46through the wagon I could see SS men with dogs, barbed wire,
0:30:46 > 0:30:48electric fences.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51We'd arrived in Birkenau, Auschwitz.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56And they said, "Men on one side,
0:30:56 > 0:30:58"women children on the other side".
0:30:58 > 0:31:01And we made two long queues.
0:31:02 > 0:31:06Mengele happened to be on the selection platform.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09He pointed the finger to the left or to the right.
0:31:09 > 0:31:14I'd noticed a lot of people who were chosen to go to the right
0:31:14 > 0:31:15were fitter men.
0:31:15 > 0:31:20To the left, children went, mothers with children, elderly men.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23I knew that's not a good point.
0:31:23 > 0:31:28You know, if they don't need you, they kill you and that's it.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32Then suddenly, they tried to take a child away from her mother,
0:31:32 > 0:31:36and she started screaming and the SS men run towards her.
0:31:36 > 0:31:41As they run there, I decided to go over to the right.
0:31:41 > 0:31:43I was very lucky.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46All the people which went to the left-hand side
0:31:46 > 0:31:47went to the gas chambers.
0:31:47 > 0:31:52And they gassed them and then burned their bodies.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55We walked into a place called the sauna,
0:31:55 > 0:31:59a brick-built building in Birkenau,
0:31:59 > 0:32:02and were told to leave all our clothing on the floor.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08I had six photographs of my family.
0:32:08 > 0:32:12And that's the last time I had a photograph of my family.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15I had my hair shaved off
0:32:15 > 0:32:19and from there we went in to the next room and we had our uniforms.
0:32:19 > 0:32:21Striped suits.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24It was big on me, so I put it up.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27They didn't give us any bath or shower.
0:32:28 > 0:32:32They soon started getting problems with lice.
0:32:32 > 0:32:36Lice walked round all over us. Itchy, very itchy.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39They live on your skin.
0:32:39 > 0:32:41We were a thousand men in a barrack.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45Three bunks high, ten people on a bunk.
0:32:45 > 0:32:47We slept on the boards.
0:32:47 > 0:32:51There was no straw, there was no covers.
0:32:51 > 0:32:55People snored, people moaned, people died next to you.
0:32:56 > 0:32:585:30 in the morning, they woke us up
0:32:58 > 0:33:01and they allowed us to go to the washroom.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04In the washroom there was about five buckets of water.
0:33:04 > 0:33:09And you just dipped your hands, washed your eyes and that was it.
0:33:11 > 0:33:16I was just skin and bones, because they didn't feed us.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18They gave us a small piece of bread in the morning,
0:33:18 > 0:33:21with some black coffee made of burnt wheat.
0:33:21 > 0:33:25And lunchtime we got some watery soup with a few leaves
0:33:25 > 0:33:27swimming round and that's it.
0:33:27 > 0:33:31Live on that for months and years, going on,
0:33:31 > 0:33:33you're just like a skeleton.
0:33:33 > 0:33:38Your mind can't think properly, your body is weak,
0:33:38 > 0:33:40you're starving all the time.
0:33:41 > 0:33:45You think about food all the time. You can't help but think about it.
0:33:48 > 0:33:53In Auschwitz I've been tattooed, I've got a number B7608,
0:33:53 > 0:33:55on my left hand.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58It's still there now. And I just can't take it off.
0:33:59 > 0:34:01I've lost 81 from my family.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06I've only found my sister, two years after the war.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10How could I say how it changed me?
0:34:10 > 0:34:14I'll never forget what I went through.
0:34:15 > 0:34:18I suffered so much.
0:34:18 > 0:34:22It was the most horrific thing any human being should ever see.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25The world should never see that again.
0:35:17 > 0:35:21I will never forgive the older generation of Germans, never.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24I've nothing to those born after the war.
0:35:24 > 0:35:29But I will never, never forgive the Germans, what they did to me
0:35:29 > 0:35:31and to other people.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33Never.
0:35:33 > 0:35:37Historically, if you talk about it to people,
0:35:37 > 0:35:43to groups and so on, people learn and if anything like that
0:35:43 > 0:35:48could come up again, they would stand up against it and so on.
0:35:48 > 0:35:52So that's why, basically, I talk about it all the time.
0:35:52 > 0:35:58I know myself that I've done quite a bit educating people
0:35:58 > 0:36:02and so on and young people, I've educated them.
0:36:02 > 0:36:06I told them the history and so on, what I went through.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09And the suffering I did go through.
0:36:09 > 0:36:12And I never want to see that happen to them.
0:36:13 > 0:36:19I'm a very strong-minded person in myself.
0:36:19 > 0:36:25And if I want to do something, I usually do it.
0:36:25 > 0:36:31And I try everything I can to achieve certain things.
0:36:31 > 0:36:35Now, I'm... I'm relaxed.
0:36:35 > 0:36:37I'm...
0:36:38 > 0:36:41I'm actually retired.
0:36:41 > 0:36:46But I still carry on teaching young people, which is very,
0:36:46 > 0:36:48very important to me.
0:36:48 > 0:36:54I'll do it until the day somebody calls me to the other side.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25Ooh, my Paris was gorgeous.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27I lived in the 20th arrondissement.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32I loved Paris, being a little girl there was fun.
0:37:32 > 0:37:36We used to walk along the Seine and over the bridges.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39My mum used to buy me lovely ice cream.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42And she used to put me on a carousel ride
0:37:42 > 0:37:45and the marionettes in the park!
0:37:45 > 0:37:47There was music always playing.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50And it was a lovely life. It was a cultured life.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56I remember going to a pre-school. I loved going there.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58But I didn't go there for very long.
0:37:58 > 0:38:02Slowly, slowly, my life changed.
0:38:02 > 0:38:05The first thing we couldn't do, we couldn't go out.
0:38:05 > 0:38:09You started to hear noises that you hadn't heard before.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12It was really scary sometimes.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15As I understand it now, we were occupied.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17And all the shouting
0:38:17 > 0:38:20and the carrying on you could hear outside was soldiers.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26The day it happened, it was August and it was hot.
0:38:26 > 0:38:29And I was with my father at the window.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31And suddenly he said, "They're here."
0:38:33 > 0:38:38And we went into the bedroom and my mum pushed me under the bed.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41You could hear all these boots on the stairs.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44And they banged on the... "Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang."
0:38:44 > 0:38:47And we didn't answer the door. We stayed in the bedroom
0:38:47 > 0:38:50And then they took an axe and they came in.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53Told us, "Raus! Out!"
0:38:53 > 0:38:56And they told my parents, "Pack a bag."
0:38:56 > 0:38:59During all the commotion, Madame Collomb came in,
0:38:59 > 0:39:00she was our next door neighbour.
0:39:00 > 0:39:04And she said, "What's my child doing in this apartment?"
0:39:04 > 0:39:07She took me by the hand, took me away.
0:39:07 > 0:39:09Had they realised what she was doing,
0:39:09 > 0:39:12we'd have all been shot on the spot. And she got away with it.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15She took me to her apartment and put me
0:39:15 > 0:39:19underneath her dining table, with a big chenille tablecloth over it.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22Made me a little bed, and I lived there for two or three weeks.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25And it was dark, and it was solitary and it was lonely
0:39:25 > 0:39:26and I had nightmares there.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31I never saw my parents again after that.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34And I was a lost, totally lost child.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39After that, Madame Collomb took me out at night.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42And furtively we had to go to catch a train.
0:39:42 > 0:39:46The first hiding place she took me to was Mondoubleau,
0:39:46 > 0:39:48which is south-west of Paris.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51I couldn't go to school, I couldn't go out on the street,
0:39:51 > 0:39:53because there were German soldiers everywhere.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57They hid me in a sort of a strange outhouse.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00Stayed there two years in hiding.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04Then I was taken to the Auvergne, to a farm in the middle of nowhere.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10There was no light, no water. You have to be self-sufficient.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12You grow up overnight.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18I slept occasionally inside the house, but then other times
0:40:18 > 0:40:22I went and slept with the goat, because she'd had some kids.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24They were warm and they were friendly
0:40:24 > 0:40:26and snuffle against your cheek.
0:40:28 > 0:40:32During the day, I had to go out and work like a man.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36It's hard, in the winter when it's frozen.
0:40:36 > 0:40:40My hands were blue and they were cracked and bleeding and sore and
0:40:40 > 0:40:44my feet were in the same condition, because I didn't have shoes.
0:40:44 > 0:40:47I used to sit down and cry sometimes.
0:40:47 > 0:40:50But it didn't do any good, so I stopped that.
0:40:50 > 0:40:51Nobody heard.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Nobody ever said, "Oh, I'll explain what happened to you.
0:40:56 > 0:41:00"I will explain what war means. I will explain what happened
0:41:00 > 0:41:03"to your parents, that you are never going to see them again.
0:41:03 > 0:41:05"I will explain that you are never going back
0:41:05 > 0:41:07"to your house in Paris, forget it, it's gone."
0:41:12 > 0:41:16The war finished in '45, and I was still in the Auvergne for two years.
0:41:16 > 0:41:19We didn't know, we hadn't been told.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22I didn't know the war was over, because we didn't have newspapers,
0:41:22 > 0:41:25we didn't have a radio, we didn't have electricity.
0:41:25 > 0:41:26Nobody knew.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11My war really started when I came to Britain.
0:42:11 > 0:42:14I couldn't speak the language. I didn't know who I was.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17I was traumatised. Couldn't talk. Didn't want to talk.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20They thought I was dumb. I didn't speak.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23When I was growing up, I was about 17,
0:42:23 > 0:42:26I was going to go and join the army and I was going to go over
0:42:26 > 0:42:28and kill them all.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31That was my anger. I hated them.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34I couldn't bear to hear the German accent.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37And it made me very...
0:42:39 > 0:42:41..cautious...
0:42:41 > 0:42:45and never wanting to go anywhere near those countries
0:42:45 > 0:42:50or associate with anything that had to do with Germany for a long time.
0:42:50 > 0:42:53I believe that because they're going to keep
0:42:53 > 0:42:57the Holocaust Memorial Day in perpetuity, I hope,
0:42:57 > 0:43:02and that there are certain places like Yad Vashem and Beth Shalom
0:43:02 > 0:43:06who have a memorial to the Shoah, which is the Holocaust.
0:43:06 > 0:43:11I do believe that it should be at least remembered.
0:43:11 > 0:43:12Yes, I do, I do.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15I think it should be taught, you know, in perpetuity.
0:43:15 > 0:43:19Because, even if it is not the Holocaust, the other story -
0:43:19 > 0:43:27Rwanda, Syria, Yugoslavia - should be told.
0:43:27 > 0:43:31They should be kept alive in the memory of people.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34They shouldn't be allowed to be forgotten
0:43:34 > 0:43:37because that way, things will...
0:43:37 > 0:43:41Because we're human, we will forget.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44I look at my sons, I look at my grandchildren,
0:43:44 > 0:43:47I look at my great grandson, and he's a fabulous little boy,
0:43:47 > 0:43:52and I'm just very happy about what I have achieved.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55And every day I say, "Thank you," about 10,000 times a day,
0:43:55 > 0:43:56"Thank you!"