0:00:35 > 0:00:38If there is anyone out there
0:00:38 > 0:00:42who still doubts that America is a place
0:00:42 > 0:00:45where all things are possible...
0:00:45 > 0:00:51who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time...
0:00:51 > 0:00:55who still questions the power of our democracy...
0:00:55 > 0:00:58tonight is your answer.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05It's been a long time coming.
0:01:05 > 0:01:11But tonight, because of what we did on this day, in this election,
0:01:11 > 0:01:14at this defining moment,
0:01:14 > 0:01:17change has come to America.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30My name is James Cross.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33I am 17 years of age.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37I was brought up in Harlem,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40where things are not so cool.
0:01:40 > 0:01:47And everyday when I pass by the school, I look up at the flag,
0:01:47 > 0:01:52and I wonder, is there anything for me in that flag?
0:01:53 > 0:02:00I just hope that ten years from now, those people won't have to live like these people live in Harlem,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03that they have to go through the hell, the agony...
0:02:05 > 0:02:09There's just no type of life left.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11Take my family.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15My mother used to have a job cleaning this white lady's floor.
0:02:15 > 0:02:20She used to say, "Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am."
0:02:20 > 0:02:23And my father used to say, "Yes, sir."
0:02:23 > 0:02:28And I used to hate that man's guts for saying, "Yes, sir."
0:02:28 > 0:02:35I hated my father's guts until I realised that he had to say it if I was going to eat.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47What were you really prevented from doing as a child that a white child might have done?
0:02:47 > 0:02:51Well, in my days in Atlanta as a child,
0:02:51 > 0:02:55there was a pretty strict system of segregation.
0:02:55 > 0:03:00For instance, I could not use the swimming pool,
0:03:00 > 0:03:04so that for a long time I could not go swimming,
0:03:04 > 0:03:07until the YMCA was built, a negro YMCA,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10and they had a swimming pool there.
0:03:10 > 0:03:16But certainly a negro child in Atlanta could not go to any public park.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20I could not go to the so-called white schools.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22There were separate schools.
0:03:22 > 0:03:28And I attended a high school in Atlanta which was the only high school for negroes in the city.
0:03:28 > 0:03:36And this was a real problem, because in Atlanta there are more than 200,000 negroes.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41In many of the stores downtown, to take another example,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44I could not go to a lunch counter
0:03:44 > 0:03:50to buy a hamburger or a cup of coffee or something like that.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53I could not attend any of the theatres.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57There were one or two negro theatres.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59They were very small.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02But they did not get the main pictures.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06If they got them, they were two years late or three years late.
0:04:06 > 0:04:12By and large there was a very strict system of segregation,
0:04:12 > 0:04:18and there was nothing called racial integration at that time in Atlanta.
0:04:24 > 0:04:29I think if there was any one point or one event
0:04:29 > 0:04:32in the civil rights movement that started in the '50s, you can
0:04:32 > 0:04:39pinpoint it to the Montgomery bus boycott and Mrs Parks, who's here.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43It was symbolised by this court room and her conviction in it.
0:04:43 > 0:04:49Traditionally, white people have been able to manipulate us and get us to do whatever they wanted to do.
0:04:49 > 0:04:54But notwithstanding all of the pressure and arrests and harassment,
0:04:54 > 0:04:59black people stuck together for 14 months in the cradle of the confederacy.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03If we could do it here, they could do it anywhere around the world.
0:05:05 > 0:05:11I did this because I felt I was being violated as a human being.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14I'd had a hard day of work on the job.
0:05:14 > 0:05:22And I was physically tired, as well as just mentally vexed.
0:05:22 > 0:05:28Sick of this type of thing we had to endure as people because of our race.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30It did not seem right.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34It wasn't right, and I felt that I was being mistreated.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37We knew that she was going to be convicted.
0:05:37 > 0:05:44But what was more important than her case per se, whether she was convicted or not,
0:05:44 > 0:05:52was the fact that between the time she was arrested on Thursday, and the time of the trial on Monday,
0:05:52 > 0:05:57the black community had become so upset and disturbed
0:05:57 > 0:06:01over the bus situation and over Mrs Parks' arrest,
0:06:01 > 0:06:08until we had concluded that this simply was it, the straw that broke the camel's back.
0:06:08 > 0:06:14And that we were gonna stay off the buses until we could get some type of consideration.
0:06:21 > 0:06:27In 1896, the Supreme Court had ruled that blacks should be treated equally but separately.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30In 1954, the Supreme Court overturned that ruling.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32It said segregation was unconstitutional.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35The Supreme Court ruling might have been simple.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38Enforcing it against southern prejudice was not.
0:06:38 > 0:06:43Little Rock, Arkansas, 1957, Governor Faubus called out the National Guard
0:06:43 > 0:06:47to keep nine black students out of the all-white high school.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52Compelled to enforce the law, President Eisenhower flew in 1,000 combat troops.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Ernest Green, now a New York lawyer, was one of those black children.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58We went to school coming up the steps with a cordon of soldiers.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01There were helicopters flying all around.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04There were anti-tank personnel.
0:07:04 > 0:07:09There were machine guns set up around on the ground.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14And at that point, when we got up here, we finally knew
0:07:14 > 0:07:16that we had cracked Little Rock.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19We had finally gotten in the school.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24And the psychological importance was the first time that black people had
0:07:24 > 0:07:30seen the government using its full weight and force to enforce the '54 Supreme Court decision.
0:07:30 > 0:07:37And the fact that they would bring out 1,000 troops to protect nine kids was an incredible
0:07:37 > 0:07:41boost to blacks around this country.
0:07:47 > 0:07:53More than 1,000 people from the mainly Irish and Italian community of South Boston are demonstrating
0:07:53 > 0:08:01their refusal to submit to a federal judge, who has ruled that Boston schools must now be de-segregated.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05It's a decision which has brought the worst racial violence
0:08:05 > 0:08:08any North American city has suffered for the last eight years.
0:08:10 > 0:08:16The worst of the rioting in Boston centred around the bussing of black children from the ghetto of Roxbury,
0:08:16 > 0:08:21to two formerly white high schools, one in South Boston and the other in the suburb of Hyde Park.
0:08:21 > 0:08:27Mobs stoned cars and buses, and within a week at least 50 people
0:08:27 > 0:08:30had been arrested and many more injured.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33It's a disgrace. They should be in their own section.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36Everybody in their own districts to go to school.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38They're just taking the schools over.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Our kids haven't got a chance.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42But why haven't they got a chance?
0:08:42 > 0:08:45Because the parents don't fight hard enough.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47We don't have the backing.
0:08:47 > 0:08:51The coloured folks all have organisations that will back them.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54The whites just don't seem to get together and get things done.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58They just wanna start trouble. They think they own the place.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01I got news for 'em - they're gonna be dead if they try anything else.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05If they built new schools here, there wouldn't have to be no bussing.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09Just build some schools here. We don't wanna go out to the suburbs to go to school.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13We wanna go to school right here. These schools are inadequate, so we have to do this here.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17You know, there's the buses, we gotta do that. That's the whole thing.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22Well, they're taking our children out of an area where I know everybody. I've known the teachers.
0:09:22 > 0:09:24They have gone to school here.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28And they're putting them into an area where the schools
0:09:28 > 0:09:31are too far away from my home in the first place.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35And in the second place, two of the schools are in a dangerous area.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39Everybody in Boston, including the suburbs, are starting to rebel.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41They're rebelling against social workers,
0:09:41 > 0:09:45do-gooders, telling us how to live, what we must do with our children.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Nobody is going to tell me what to do with my children.
0:09:48 > 0:09:53They were given to me by God, and I'm gonna raise them in the way I was taught and the way I was brought up.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56And nobody is going to tell me what's good for my children.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59My wife and myself will tell our children what's good for them.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02We have to live with the titles of racists and bigots and what have you,
0:10:02 > 0:10:08because they're using these cliches as weapons against us. We're standing by our rights.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11We want neighbourhood schools, what this country was predicated on in the beginning.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15How much prejudice against black people do you think there is in South Boston?
0:10:15 > 0:10:18I think there's a lot of racism, but mainly because of fear.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23I mean, the whites are afraid of the blacks, the blacks are afraid of the whites.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25Two weeks ago, blacks went into South Boston High
0:10:25 > 0:10:28chanting, "We've got your school, we'll get your neighbourhood."
0:10:28 > 0:10:30That's bound to get a few people mad.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33So you've had incidents of stoning down there a couple of blocks.
0:10:33 > 0:10:38And you've had incidents at the school involving whites and blacks.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42The whole plan is really stupid anyway because it hasn't been planned out.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46I mean, if you're gonna have that, fine.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48But you're not having any education done.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51You have set up two standards - one for white, one for black.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55They're in the same building, but the whites and blacks want a different prom,
0:10:55 > 0:10:58they want a different school, That isn't integration.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02That's putting them in the same building and saying, "Learn something." But you can't.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05You have so many boycotting, and the others just don't wanna learn.
0:11:05 > 0:11:09Or they're sitting there or they're scared. How can you learn when you're shivering?
0:11:09 > 0:11:12They're only getting mad at the black people
0:11:12 > 0:11:15because they feel they're coming up there to get their education.
0:11:15 > 0:11:20They feel like the black person's getting smarter than the white person, and they wanna stop it.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23That's why they're going out in South Boston and stoning us
0:11:23 > 0:11:26out of their town, because they don't want us trying to get their education.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29They're finding out that we're getting smarter than they are,
0:11:29 > 0:11:32and they don't like it so they're gonna stone us out,
0:11:32 > 0:11:34back into the black community where we have nothing.
0:11:34 > 0:11:39They have all the things to make them smarter, and we have all the leftover things.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42And they want us out there with those leftover things,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46so we can remain our stupid niggerish selves, as they should call it.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49The real issue in this city is prejudice.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52It is racial prejudice.
0:11:52 > 0:11:58It is not opposition to forced bussing, as it is called.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00It is opposition to de-segregation.
0:12:00 > 0:12:07It is not that whites in Boston are against courts.
0:12:07 > 0:12:14It is that they are against courts that make decisions or hand down orders with which they disagree.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24You are to be ready to accept violence
0:12:24 > 0:12:31if this becomes a part of the retaliation of the opponent.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35But you never inflict violence upon another in the process.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38You are willing to accept blows without retaliating.
0:12:38 > 0:12:46When a non-violent movement starts, when the oppressed people rise up against their oppression,
0:12:46 > 0:12:52the initial reaction of the oppressor is to respond with anger.
0:12:52 > 0:12:59But I think if you persevere in the non-violent way, and you continue to make it
0:12:59 > 0:13:06clear that your aim is to change the situation, and to save not
0:13:06 > 0:13:09only the negro race, so to speak,
0:13:09 > 0:13:15but the whole social situation, this eventually arouses a conscience.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18I think the greatness of non-violence is that it
0:13:18 > 0:13:25has a way of disarming the opponent, it exposes his moral defences, it weakens his morale,
0:13:25 > 0:13:29and at the same time it works on his conscience in the process.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42You would take seats quietly at the lunch counter.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44You would not say anything to anybody.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48You sat there until you asked to be served.
0:13:48 > 0:13:54There was the waitress who was very panicky, walking up and down, and very confused about what to do,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57and very clear that she was not going to serve us.
0:13:57 > 0:14:02I'm sorry but our management does not allow us to serve niggers in here.
0:14:02 > 0:14:08Then there were these fellas with the duck tail haircuts and they were walking behind us.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12So they would make catcalls. They would say, "What are you doin' in here, jungle bunnies?"
0:14:12 > 0:14:15"Get outta here - you're not gonna get served in here!"
0:14:18 > 0:14:20And we sat at the counters.
0:14:20 > 0:14:28I was praying when this white lady came and put her cigarette out on my arm.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31So I calmed myself down.
0:14:31 > 0:14:36While I was calming down, she lit the rest of her matches and pulled my poncho out.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39She dropped the lit matches down my back.
0:14:44 > 0:14:49He was pulled off the seat at the lunch counter.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51And he was kicked and beaten on the floor.
0:14:51 > 0:14:58They decided they were going to make an example out of him because he was white.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07I was going to sit in the front of the bus with Paul Brookes.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11Paul sat by the window, I sat by the aisle.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15The rest of the blacks and one white girl,
0:15:15 > 0:15:20- were going to sit in the back. - We had placed 16 state trooper cars
0:15:20 > 0:15:24in front of those buses and 16 state trooper cars behind them.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29We also had an air reconnaissance flying over those buses
0:15:29 > 0:15:35just in case they put out some bridges or tried to sabotage those buses.
0:15:37 > 0:15:44All of a sudden, as we got to the city limits of Montgomery, Alabama, all of the protection faded away -
0:15:44 > 0:15:48no more state troopers, no more helicopters.
0:15:48 > 0:15:54They sat on the bus for a little while and I saw the mob begin to just build like a river.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58Just growing, growing, growing.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00You can see things in their hands.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04Hammers, chains...pipes.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07It was a frenzy. They just went wild.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10"Get the nigger lover." I mean, I was the only white guy there.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15They were screaming and hollering, and their faces were all frowned up.
0:16:15 > 0:16:20They grabbed Jim Zwerg and they took him and knocked him over the rail.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23They picked him up and knocked him over the rail again. They knocked his teeth out.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27I remember getting kicked in the spine and hearing my back crack.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29And the pain.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32I passed out again, and I woke up.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34I was again in a moving vehicle...
0:16:36 > 0:16:39..with some very southern-sounding whites,
0:16:39 > 0:16:41and I figured, I'm off to get lynched.
0:16:41 > 0:16:47We're dedicated to this. We'll take hitting, we'll take beating.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50We're willing to accept death.
0:16:52 > 0:16:54Segregation must be broken down.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06Tomorrow, if all goes well, the United States of America puts another man into space.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09Another major scientific achievement in a field that
0:17:09 > 0:17:14only nations of wealth and vast resources can command.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16America in space.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19And yet there are other sides to America,
0:17:19 > 0:17:24as difficult and frustrating in their way, perhaps, as any problems of the space age.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28For example, how do you make your white citizens
0:17:28 > 0:17:32and your coloured citizens understand and love each other?
0:17:32 > 0:17:37Today, federal troops are standing by in Alabama to take over this city
0:17:37 > 0:17:42of Birmingham if new violence should flare up between coloured and white Americans.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Panorama takes you now direct to Robin Day in Washington.
0:17:45 > 0:17:51A colonel and 15 men have already set up an advance federal headquarters
0:17:51 > 0:17:54in the city of Birmingham.
0:17:54 > 0:18:01But there's been no repetition of the OAS-style bombing which provoked the race riots on Saturday night,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04although there is other news this afternoon of mounting racial
0:18:04 > 0:18:08tension in the south, from Jackson, Mississippi and Nashville, Tennessee.
0:18:08 > 0:18:14But first, this report from Birmingham, beginning with film of the riots there on Saturday night.
0:18:17 > 0:18:22The rioting raged for more than three hours after bomb attacks on an integrated motel
0:18:22 > 0:18:25and the home of a negro leader, whose comment was,
0:18:25 > 0:18:29"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
0:18:29 > 0:18:35Some 50 people were injured, including a policeman and a white taxi driver who was stabbed.
0:18:35 > 0:18:41The bombings followed a Ku Klux Klan rally, but there's no evidence yet of any connection.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46It's reported that the situation became ugliest when Alabama state patrol men,
0:18:46 > 0:18:51armed with carbines and automatic shotguns moved, in to take over from the Birmingham city police.
0:18:51 > 0:18:57More than 2,000 negroes joined the rioting crowds, who attacked white police and firemen.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01Fires blazed up in six shops and an apartment house.
0:19:01 > 0:19:06The night sky of Alabama glowed red with the flames of racial strife.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09It was the ferocity of these riots which caused the President
0:19:09 > 0:19:13last night to order federal troops to the area.
0:19:13 > 0:19:19During last week's rioting, when police used fire hoses and dogs to quell mass negro demonstrations,
0:19:19 > 0:19:24the President said he could not legally intervene, though he called it an ugly situation.
0:19:24 > 0:19:29Children were used in the negro demonstrations. Over 2,000 negroes were jailed.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33At night, negroes crowded into churches to listen to their leaders,
0:19:33 > 0:19:37who were negotiating for the de-segregation pact, which may now be in jeopardy.
0:19:37 > 0:19:43This is St James' Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama.
0:19:43 > 0:19:48Tonight, it's the rallying centre of the Negro Equality Movement.
0:19:48 > 0:19:54This tiny church is packed with clapping, swinging negroes, waiting for their leaders
0:19:54 > 0:20:00to tell them the outcome of the negotiations, to tell them if their demands have been won.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03The tiny church is insufferably hot.
0:20:03 > 0:20:10I see the end, I'm not talking about pie-in-the-sky, by and by when you die.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14I'm talking about some pie in Birmingham.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17These are the American citizens on whom, says President Kennedy,
0:20:17 > 0:20:25very real abuses have been afflicted for too long, in the sunny, southern city of Birmingham, Alabama.
0:20:25 > 0:20:31I'm talking about pie for our children and our grandchildren,
0:20:31 > 0:20:35I'm talking about a little pie for Grandma and Grandaddy.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50The name of the local police commander,
0:20:50 > 0:20:56Public Safety Commissioner Eugene T Connor, is notorious among Birmingham negroes.
0:20:56 > 0:21:01Known as Bull Connor, he's been the virtual boss of Birmingham for 23 years.
0:21:01 > 0:21:08This full-blooded segregationist was persuaded to give his first TV interview of the crisis to Panorama.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11Commissioner Connor, what's your responsibility in this situation?
0:21:11 > 0:21:14- To enforce the law.- And...
0:21:14 > 0:21:16Fairly and squarely on all peoples.
0:21:16 > 0:21:24- Do you personally, Mr Connor, consider the demands of the negro leaders unreasonable?- I do.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29For instance, why? Say the one about lunch counters and so on?
0:21:29 > 0:21:31Why do you consider that unreasonable?
0:21:31 > 0:21:35That's up to the merchants. If the merchants wants them to eat at the lunch counters
0:21:35 > 0:21:38that's the merchants' business, that's not the law enforcement.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Mr Connor, President Kennedy said that the negroes in Alabama,
0:21:41 > 0:21:46in Birmingham, Alabama, have been subjected to very real abuses.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49He said that at his press conference the other day. What do you say about that?
0:21:49 > 0:21:51I didn't understand it that way.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54The President, the way I understood it, said that nobody's rights
0:21:54 > 0:21:57had been violated, nobody's civil rights had been violated here.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01There have been some criticisms, Mr Connor, of the use of
0:22:01 > 0:22:05water hoses and dogs in controlling the demonstrators.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08Would you care to explain why that was necessary in your view?
0:22:08 > 0:22:12Because it was violating the law and starting a riot. We don't want any riot.
0:22:12 > 0:22:19Do you think you can keep Birmingham in the present situation of segregation?
0:22:19 > 0:22:22As it is now?
0:22:22 > 0:22:25I may not be able to do it, but I'll die trying.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28I understand Bull Connor very well.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31He's a victim of a culture
0:22:31 > 0:22:38which has taught him, a victim of mores than folk ways, which taught him that
0:22:38 > 0:22:44segregation was the right way and he couldn't be a man unless he defended
0:22:44 > 0:22:47this system and I think this is a part of the love ethic,
0:22:47 > 0:22:52that you understand the surrounding and the environmental conditions
0:22:52 > 0:22:55that make people like they are,
0:22:55 > 0:22:59and the fact that you go out to change the system means
0:22:59 > 0:23:06that you're trying to bring about the kind of structural change in the architecture of a society which will
0:23:06 > 0:23:12cause the individual to change so that they'll mend their way.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Dr King, how big a victory is this for the American negro?
0:23:21 > 0:23:27Well, I think this is a very significant victory, not only for the American negro, but for the country.
0:23:27 > 0:23:34I have always felt that a victory in Birmingham would mean a great deal in breaking down the barriers
0:23:34 > 0:23:41of segregation all over the south because Birmingham has been the most thoroughly segregated city in
0:23:41 > 0:23:48the United States and I think it'll cause many to see now the futility of massive resistance to desegregation.
0:23:48 > 0:23:54The Attorney General of the United States, the President's brother, Mr Robert Kennedy, has criticised
0:23:54 > 0:23:59the use of school children in these mass demonstrations, which he said could be very dangerous.
0:23:59 > 0:24:05- What do you say to that? - I can only answer by saying that school children are the victims
0:24:05 > 0:24:13of segregation, discrimination and all of the injustices that go along with them as much as adults.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16Their personalities are often distorted by this unjust system.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21They develop feelings of inferiority and I think by their engaging
0:24:21 > 0:24:25in these protests, they have a creative channel
0:24:25 > 0:24:32through which they can let out their pent-up resentments and these latent, bitter feelings which may develop.
0:24:32 > 0:24:38Have you had enough help from the Attorney-General and the President in this crisis?
0:24:38 > 0:24:40Well, I think there's more that can be done.
0:24:40 > 0:24:46I think there are definite federal issues involved and the federal government
0:24:46 > 0:24:53has not made it clear to the south that it will not stand by and allow First Amendment privileges...
0:24:53 > 0:24:57Would you explain for a British audience what a First Amendment privilege is?
0:24:57 > 0:25:00Well, the First Amendment deals with certain basic
0:25:00 > 0:25:06freedoms such as freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of press and the right to protest for right.
0:25:06 > 0:25:10This is one of the sacred traditions of American democracy.
0:25:10 > 0:25:16I think that the failure on the part of the government to protect
0:25:16 > 0:25:19these rights is one of the great failures that we face.
0:25:19 > 0:25:23What do you think they should have done or should do in another similar case?
0:25:23 > 0:25:25Well, I think the federal government could come in
0:25:25 > 0:25:30through the Justice Department and file a suit in the federal court
0:25:30 > 0:25:34against the constant arrest of persons who are engaged
0:25:34 > 0:25:38in non-violent protest for their constitutional rights.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42I think also the President, with his great moral...
0:25:42 > 0:25:46I mean with his great influence and popularity, could use
0:25:46 > 0:25:52moral suasion and say to the nation that these things are wrong and something must be done about it and
0:25:52 > 0:25:59I think that he has some executive power which he could use to declare segregation itself unconstitutional.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10The Reverend Martin Luther King said to me in Alabama that the Justice Department,
0:26:10 > 0:26:14your department, should do more, it should have filed a suit to protect the privileges of
0:26:14 > 0:26:20the negroes, freedom of assembly and so forth, which may be infringed by state laws. What do you say to that?
0:26:20 > 0:26:22Well, Martin Luther King isn't a lawyer.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25We've done everything over the period of the last two-and-a-half years
0:26:25 > 0:26:28to bring all the rights that we can under the constitution,
0:26:28 > 0:26:32under the laws of the United States, we've made a major effort.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35We realise that this is the great problem in the United States
0:26:35 > 0:26:38and we want to move ahead in it but I'm sure in England
0:26:38 > 0:26:43and in countries of Europe you have rules and regulations about
0:26:43 > 0:26:49having a parade, about having a group meet in the middle of the streets. You have to get permission.
0:26:49 > 0:26:53Well, Martin Luther King and his followers felt they didn't want to get permission,
0:26:53 > 0:26:56they didn't want to get a permit to stage a parade with 1,000 people
0:26:56 > 0:26:59marching down the middle of Birmingham.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02The authorities said if he didn't get a parade then he was going to be arrested.
0:27:02 > 0:27:06You have the conflict between the First Amendment, the right to freedom of speech,
0:27:06 > 0:27:10right to freedom of assembly, versus the right of the local authorities
0:27:10 > 0:27:13to control their situation, the police powers.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16That comes in conflict so that's where the problem is.
0:27:16 > 0:27:23All of us have great sympathy for the effort that's being made to obtain all the rights for negroes and we're
0:27:23 > 0:27:29involved in that but this situation is more complicated than just coming up with a simple answer.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32Apart from the legal question, Martin Luther King asked
0:27:32 > 0:27:36for the President to use moral persuasion and to condemn segregation,
0:27:36 > 0:27:42and he says, to use his executive power to declare segregation unconstitutional. What about that?
0:27:42 > 0:27:46Well, of course he's made a number of statements condemning segregation.
0:27:46 > 0:27:50I suppose he can make one every week, but he's made it continuously.
0:27:50 > 0:27:55It's quite clear how he feels, it's quite clear how the administration feels, it's quite clear how I feel,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58the responsibility for enforcing these laws.
0:27:58 > 0:28:04You can't just pass an executive order ending what's happening in a drug store in Birmingham, Alabama.
0:28:04 > 0:28:06They have control of the situation in their own state.
0:28:06 > 0:28:10The federal government doesn't have any authority in this sphere,
0:28:10 > 0:28:14so we can't just pass an executive order and have it go automatically into effect.
0:28:20 > 0:28:26In Birmingham, when 250,000 black men refused to buy anything except food
0:28:26 > 0:28:29and medicine, they changed the nature of the economy.
0:28:29 > 0:28:34And people's hearts didn't change necessarily but they realised that
0:28:34 > 0:28:37if they wanted black men to spend their money again,
0:28:37 > 0:28:42they had to enter into a new relationship economically where instead of just taking money from
0:28:42 > 0:28:45the black community, they began to give jobs
0:28:45 > 0:28:48and treat people courteously and give them equal services.
0:29:02 > 0:29:06Every time you'd go down there, they would make you come back,
0:29:06 > 0:29:09come back next month, come back in two months' time,
0:29:09 > 0:29:11or you may have to come back next year
0:29:11 > 0:29:16and they intimidated us so much so and some people just wouldn't go back.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20The number one trick was to ask questions
0:29:20 > 0:29:22that no-one can answer,
0:29:22 > 0:29:26like how many bubbles in a bar of soap, right?
0:29:26 > 0:29:31They asked blacks that but they didn't ask whites that, so you asked impossible
0:29:31 > 0:29:38and stupid and inane questions of people you didn't want to vote, knowing that these had no answers.
0:29:40 > 0:29:41On this side, right here,
0:29:41 > 0:29:47you interpret, you tell what it means, you write your meaning, your understanding of it.
0:29:49 > 0:29:52' "Can you explain the constitution?'
0:29:52 > 0:29:54"Can you tell us what the constitution means,
0:29:54 > 0:29:56"every word of the constitution?"
0:29:56 > 0:29:58Well, we didn't know.
0:29:58 > 0:30:06It did not matter whether you had a PhD degree or no degree, they just would not register negroes.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22This courthouse is a serious place of business.
0:30:22 > 0:30:28You seem to think you've taken it to be a Disneyland or something on parade.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31Do you have business in the courthouse?
0:30:34 > 0:30:36We just want to pass by.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38Do you have any business in the courthouse?
0:30:38 > 0:30:41The only business we have was to come by
0:30:41 > 0:30:44to the Board of Registers to...register.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48The Board of Registrars is not in session this afternoon, as you were informed.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52You came down to make a mockery out of this courthouse. You're not going to pass.
0:31:03 > 0:31:05If we're wrong, why don't you arrest us?
0:31:05 > 0:31:10- Why don't you get out front of the camera and go on?- It's not a matter of being in front of the camera,
0:31:10 > 0:31:13it's a matter of facing your sherriff and facing your judge.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15We're willing to be beaten for democracy.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18The idea was to beat people down, beat them away.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20Destroy them physically.
0:31:20 > 0:31:26Destroy their right to even work in a town if they had the...
0:31:26 > 0:31:28the courage to even try to register to vote.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31And you misuse democracy in this street.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35You beat people bloody in order that they will not have the privilege to vote.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38- You don't have to beat us. - Get out of here!
0:31:42 > 0:31:47The act by Sheriff Clark was the normal act of the South.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50This is the kind of violation of the constitution,
0:31:50 > 0:31:55the violation of the court order, the violation of decent citizenship.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57You can turn your back on me
0:31:57 > 0:32:00but you cannot turn your back upon the idea of justice.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04You can turn your back now and you can keep the club in your hand
0:32:04 > 0:32:06but you can not beat down justice.
0:32:06 > 0:32:07And we will register to vote
0:32:07 > 0:32:11because as citizens of these United States, we have the right to do it.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15I'm looking down the line seeing all the people who have been in jail for felonies.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19Precisely right. And if they're not fit to vote, you'll be able to find that out,
0:32:19 > 0:32:22but you'll not know it until they're on the register.
0:32:22 > 0:32:27And many of those have a felony action because Sheriff Clark made them a felony action.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30Not because they were rightfully issued. All right, here I am.
0:32:30 > 0:32:36I'm standing here. I have a right, according to Judge Thomas's orders...
0:32:36 > 0:32:39I have a right, according to Judge Thomas's orders to be here.
0:32:39 > 0:32:41Come on, let us go.
0:32:47 > 0:32:48When do you want it?
0:32:48 > 0:32:50CROWD: Now!
0:32:50 > 0:32:52- When?- NOW!
0:32:52 > 0:32:56Now, I'm gonna ask you again. This time, we want to say it so loud we want Mr Wallis to hear.
0:32:56 > 0:32:58- What do you want?- Freedom!
0:32:58 > 0:33:01- What do you want?- Freedom! - When do you want it?- Now!
0:33:01 > 0:33:05In Alabama, a long jumpy week of raw nerves and tension drags on.
0:33:05 > 0:33:09It's the fiery youngsters who keep Selma's protests boiling.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11Jimmy Webb is 18.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14He came from Nashville, Tennessee, to join up here.
0:33:14 > 0:33:20He's typical of those not old enough to vote who handle a crowd and the politics of protest with easy skill.
0:33:20 > 0:33:25They bob up at intervals to arouse the flagging spirits and thaw the fear
0:33:25 > 0:33:31of those who will stand day and night out in the open under flimsy protection from the rain.
0:33:31 > 0:33:36A prominent shield for the younger and darker faces in the rear are growing numbers of clergy men
0:33:36 > 0:33:40who've come from all over the US in answer to Martin Luther King's appeal for help
0:33:40 > 0:33:41and have stayed on to see it through.
0:33:44 > 0:33:48Dr King, how significant has been the involvement of what appear
0:33:48 > 0:33:51to be large numbers of white people in what's been happening in Selma?
0:33:51 > 0:33:54Well, I think this is most significant.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57I think it is the largest number of white people
0:33:57 > 0:34:01that we've ever had in a local movement in the South.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03And this reveals that we are developing
0:34:03 > 0:34:07a real coalition of conscience on this issue.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10It reveals to me that we may be nearer the day
0:34:10 > 0:34:12of bringing about a truly integrated society.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15What effect do you think it's going to have
0:34:15 > 0:34:17on future plans for the civil rights movement?
0:34:17 > 0:34:20Well, I think it will be most helpful.
0:34:20 > 0:34:24I have always contended that if we are to make a significant thrust,
0:34:24 > 0:34:29it must be a bi-racial thrust and not merely a racial thrust.
0:34:29 > 0:34:34And I think, with the great involvement of white people
0:34:34 > 0:34:37in the movement that we are presently getting,
0:34:37 > 0:34:41we will be able to make strides and progress
0:34:41 > 0:34:45in areas where we haven't been able to make it before.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48I think this will have a tremendous impact on Congress.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51And I think it will have a tremendous impact
0:34:51 > 0:34:54in the sense of bringing other people into the movement
0:34:54 > 0:34:56who have been on the sidelines.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06The dilapidated shacks of the sharecroppers.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08Here is poverty and ignorance.
0:35:08 > 0:35:12Systematically, deliberately, since the turn of the century,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15the negro here has been denied the right to vote in any numbers.
0:35:15 > 0:35:20In Selma and its surrounding county, 300 negroes are registered to vote
0:35:20 > 0:35:23out of a total population of more than 40,000.
0:35:23 > 0:35:27Where violence is a recent past and a threatening present for rural Alabama,
0:35:27 > 0:35:32who are the people the demonstrators cry for and try to shake from their apathy?
0:35:32 > 0:35:37There are those like this young woman of 30 with 11 children and an out-of-work husband.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40She is not one of the leaders, but one of the led.
0:35:40 > 0:35:45Slower and less assured, but with a life that she's going to change.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48What have these civil rights demonstrations achieved
0:35:48 > 0:35:51for you in this house with 11 children?
0:35:51 > 0:35:53Well...it makes it possible
0:35:53 > 0:35:57for the average negro to become first-class citizens.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00If...we could ever get in the courthouse
0:36:00 > 0:36:02and be processed.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05If they could get in and be processed,
0:36:05 > 0:36:09maybe the voter registrar won't pass them, just like a few weeks ago.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13My husband, he was processed and they sent him a statement back
0:36:13 > 0:36:17saying he didn't pass because he made a false statement.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20But they didn't say what the false statement was.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23But after the demonstrations are over, after everybody goes,
0:36:23 > 0:36:26will life continue as it was? Or will it be better?
0:36:26 > 0:36:29I think it will be better for the negroes.
0:36:36 > 0:36:41I speak tonight for the dignity of man
0:36:41 > 0:36:43and the destiny of democracy.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46The constitution says
0:36:46 > 0:36:48that no person shall be kept from voting
0:36:48 > 0:36:50because of his race or his colour.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54We have all sworn an oath before God
0:36:54 > 0:36:59to support and to defend that constitution.
0:36:59 > 0:37:04We must now act in obedience to that oath.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07APPLAUSE
0:37:10 > 0:37:14Their cause must be our cause too.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18Because it's not just negroes,
0:37:18 > 0:37:22but really it's all of us
0:37:22 > 0:37:29who must overcome the crippling legacy of bigotry and injustice.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33And we shall overcome.
0:37:33 > 0:37:36APPLAUSE
0:37:36 > 0:37:43It was very rare for black people in those days to have the experience
0:37:43 > 0:37:49of having white people with enormous power...react...
0:37:49 > 0:37:55positively to their...perceptions, their insights, their instincts
0:37:55 > 0:37:57and to adopt their vision.
0:37:58 > 0:38:04He did and he also adopted the call of the movement, "We shall overcome".
0:38:04 > 0:38:06I almost went limp. I was weak.
0:38:06 > 0:38:10We had a lot of people in the streets down here at Brown Chapel.
0:38:10 > 0:38:13It was a pretty, sunshiney day.
0:38:13 > 0:38:18We heard him on the radio and when he said, "We shall overcome"
0:38:18 > 0:38:20it was like somebody just stuck a knife in your heart.
0:38:20 > 0:38:24All you fought for to oppose this thing...
0:38:24 > 0:38:27Cos you're up into a battle then and it's over with now.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30Our President's sold us out.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39Today, there are many rural towns in the Deep South
0:38:39 > 0:38:42with a black majority which is elected to the local courthouse.
0:38:42 > 0:38:46Black mayors, black sheriffs, black judges and black councillors.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48Only ten years ago, this would have been impossible,
0:38:48 > 0:38:54but here in Camden, the prosperous county seat of Wilcox County, it seems it still is impossible.
0:38:54 > 0:38:59Despite three quarters of the population being black, there are no black officials at all.
0:38:59 > 0:39:05Ten years after and only 50 miles away from Selma, here in Camden, blacks can vote.
0:39:05 > 0:39:10But as a local pastor, the Reverend Threadgill explains, they can but they don't.
0:39:10 > 0:39:15It's not difficult in a real physical sense now.
0:39:15 > 0:39:21But since it was for so long forbidden...
0:39:21 > 0:39:23some of the people still view it as a barrier
0:39:23 > 0:39:27because this is not what the great white fathers would allow
0:39:27 > 0:39:31even thought the federal government has ordered it
0:39:31 > 0:39:33and they've agreed to it, but you know.
0:39:33 > 0:39:37In order to be the kind of submissive child that you ought to be
0:39:37 > 0:39:41in order that things will go along well as they described...
0:39:43 > 0:39:46..you've got to not worry about registering to vote
0:39:46 > 0:39:51and if you do register, don't bother yourself about voting.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54And if you do vote, "Check with me before you vote."
0:39:54 > 0:39:55Don't you have a secret ballot?
0:39:55 > 0:39:58Doesn't that iron out all the problems?
0:39:58 > 0:40:04No. There is actually no secrecy in our balloting.
0:40:04 > 0:40:09We do not have the booth nor the voting machine.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12We have a paper ballot
0:40:12 > 0:40:17that's spread out on a table at the voting place.
0:40:17 > 0:40:21When you go in to cast your ballot... COCK CROWS
0:40:21 > 0:40:24..polling officials, referees and all...
0:40:26 > 0:40:28..one just might happen to be the merchant
0:40:28 > 0:40:30from whom you buy your groceries.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33One just might happen to be the banker
0:40:33 > 0:40:35from whom you borrow your money.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39One just MIGHT happen to be your landlord
0:40:39 > 0:40:43who owns the house where you live
0:40:43 > 0:40:46and the land that you till for a living.
0:40:46 > 0:40:48So then, the way you vote,
0:40:48 > 0:40:53he does not have to tell you to vote for his candidate.
0:40:53 > 0:40:57You just know that you had better vote for his candidate,
0:40:57 > 0:41:00not vote at all, or be prepared for the consequences.
0:41:08 > 0:41:09At the extremes of the negro revolt
0:41:09 > 0:41:12are the temples of the Black Muslims,
0:41:12 > 0:41:13and the followers of Elijah Muhammad,
0:41:13 > 0:41:17a movement that began in Detroit in the '30s.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20The mosque was a Jewish synagogue in the suburb
0:41:20 > 0:41:23but as the negro frontiers on the south side expanded,
0:41:23 > 0:41:26the white population moved out and it was abandoned.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29No white man is admitted and doors are closed to all but the faithful.
0:41:29 > 0:41:34Next door to the mosque is Elijah's University, headquarters of perhaps
0:41:34 > 0:41:36100,000 black Muslims in America,
0:41:36 > 0:41:40who believe that Martin Luther King's Christian Soldiers are dupes,
0:41:40 > 0:41:42led by a man who's at the forefront of a revolt
0:41:42 > 0:41:45and yet ties the hands of his people by non-violence.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49The Muslim propaganda is a mirror-image of white racism.
0:41:49 > 0:41:54If its radical solutions and strict moral codes keep active followers small in number,
0:41:54 > 0:41:57what the Muslims say and how they say it has captured the sympathy
0:41:57 > 0:42:00of large numbers of negroes in the north.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03Elijah Muhammad, the man from Georgia they call
0:42:03 > 0:42:06"the Messenger of God", gave this rare interview to Panorama.
0:42:06 > 0:42:12The poor so-called American negro has never been taught who he was.
0:42:12 > 0:42:19He came here and was put under slavery and there,
0:42:19 > 0:42:21his knowledge of self was buried.
0:42:21 > 0:42:27And he has been trying to act and imitate his master,
0:42:27 > 0:42:30not himself nor his kind.
0:42:30 > 0:42:35And he lost all knowledge of self and all love for self.
0:42:35 > 0:42:41He has not even had any love for self nor his kind.
0:42:41 > 0:42:43He was robbed of all of that.
0:42:43 > 0:42:49His love went for the white man and not for himself and his kind.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52And he became a hater of himself.
0:42:52 > 0:42:57We want to live on this Earth as a nation as you.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59We don't want to be you.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02We, the Muslim, we don't want to be you.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05If you want to be us, that's up to you.
0:43:05 > 0:43:08And it's up to us to let you in.
0:43:08 > 0:43:11But we think everything was all right
0:43:11 > 0:43:16when God placed us in our respective spheres.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19And ever sense of the white man come out of Europe
0:43:19 > 0:43:23and started mixing among the black man,
0:43:23 > 0:43:28brown, yellow and red races, he has had a hell of a mess out of it,
0:43:28 > 0:43:30to tell you the truth about it.
0:43:30 > 0:43:33He has mixed himself up so today
0:43:33 > 0:43:38that he has more trouble trying to unmix himself,
0:43:38 > 0:43:41if he would attempt it,
0:43:41 > 0:43:46than he had trying to get in among our people.
0:43:46 > 0:43:53Mr Muhammad, the negro in America does live in a multi-racial society,
0:43:53 > 0:43:55- and in teaching him... - He had no society at all.
0:43:55 > 0:43:57What sort of society are you saying?
0:43:57 > 0:44:00Multi-racial? Where did he ever have a society?
0:44:00 > 0:44:03But, in teaching them hatred of the past, do you feel perhaps
0:44:03 > 0:44:07you're teaching them hatred for the future when there is some hope.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09- Most people hope. - What sort of hatred?
0:44:09 > 0:44:13This is charged to us because we teach the truth
0:44:13 > 0:44:16and if the truth actually causes hatred,
0:44:16 > 0:44:19it is only among the guilty.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23Truth don't make hatred.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26Truth brings understanding.
0:44:26 > 0:44:31Truth brings true friendship. Truth brings true brotherly love.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33It don't bring hatred.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36Only to those who oppose the truth.
0:44:36 > 0:44:41The 600 children who go to Elijah's school will be taught to fight for a separate state,
0:44:41 > 0:44:45that the white man is incapable of dealing with them fairly.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55Let us agree that the blow must be struck
0:44:55 > 0:44:58and let us agree what type of blow must be struck
0:44:58 > 0:45:02and whom the blow should be struck
0:45:02 > 0:45:05and then those who don't go along with that strike,
0:45:05 > 0:45:07we can strike them first.
0:45:07 > 0:45:11Black people should realise that freedom is something they have
0:45:11 > 0:45:12when they're born.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15Anyone who stands in their way of freedom is their enemy.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18- Yes!- Anyone...
0:45:18 > 0:45:23who stands in the way of your and my freedom, our human dignity,
0:45:23 > 0:45:28is a cold-blooded, blue-eyed enemy.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30APPLAUSE
0:45:34 > 0:45:37We need an organisation that no one down town loves.
0:45:37 > 0:45:41- We need one that's ready and willing to take action.- Yeah!
0:45:41 > 0:45:42- Any kind of action.- Right!
0:45:42 > 0:45:47Not when the men down town sees fit but when we see fit.
0:45:47 > 0:45:49By any means necessary.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51APPLAUSE
0:45:54 > 0:45:57This will be an organisation that will give the black man
0:45:57 > 0:46:00in this country the right to defend himself.
0:46:00 > 0:46:06It will encourage him to defend himself and it will teach him how to defend himself,
0:46:06 > 0:46:08- by any means necessary. - APPLAUSE
0:46:12 > 0:46:16And we can never acquire human dignity until we eliminate
0:46:16 > 0:46:20that which stands in the way of us and our dignity.
0:46:20 > 0:46:24- The men that kidnapped us and brought us here.- Yeah!
0:46:24 > 0:46:26- Who made a slave out of us.- Yeah!
0:46:26 > 0:46:28Who hung us on trees.
0:46:28 > 0:46:33- Who raped our mothers. I don't have to tell you which man.- That's right!
0:46:33 > 0:46:38Because we intend to fire our people up so much until, if they can't have
0:46:38 > 0:46:42their equal share in the house, they will burn it down.
0:46:52 > 0:46:56One of the most powerful and in many ways the most perplexing movements
0:46:56 > 0:46:59in the United States of America is the Black Muslims.
0:46:59 > 0:47:04They're negro extremists and they're not only a political movement
0:47:04 > 0:47:07but they're also a religious movement and a way of life.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09Their followers, at least 200,000 of them,
0:47:09 > 0:47:12embrace the faith of Islam and its customs.
0:47:12 > 0:47:17They want nothing less than a separate Negro state within the United States.
0:47:17 > 0:47:19Like all revolutionary movements,
0:47:19 > 0:47:23they face a challenge because one of their most forceful leaders has now broken away,
0:47:23 > 0:47:26dissatisfied with the policy of the Black Muslims.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29And he's now the leader of his own independent group,
0:47:29 > 0:47:31the Muslim Mosque Inc.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34Can I first of all clear up your name, was it in fact Malcolm Little?
0:47:34 > 0:47:38I don't think it was in fact, if it was in fact I would let it remain.
0:47:38 > 0:47:42Little was the name of the man who formerly owned my grandfather,
0:47:42 > 0:47:44as a slave. So I gave it back.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48- So do people now address you as Mr X?- Mr X, Malcolm X.
0:47:48 > 0:47:52The black Muslim policy, as I was saying, was completely separatist.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55They wanted this separate state within the United States.
0:47:55 > 0:47:57Now as I understand it, you don't.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01The policy of your group is now that you don't want this separate State.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03How do you want... What do you want?
0:48:03 > 0:48:06Well, the... Number one, there are two groups of us now.
0:48:06 > 0:48:09There are those who broke away have formed into two groups.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12One OF which is religious and based upon the orthodox Islamic teaching
0:48:12 > 0:48:14and the other is non-religious.
0:48:14 > 0:48:18And the name of it is the Organisation of Afro-American Unity.
0:48:18 > 0:48:22We want to be recognised and respected as human beings.
0:48:22 > 0:48:27We have a motto which tells somewhat how we intend to bring it about.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30Our motto is, by any means necessary.
0:48:30 > 0:48:34By whatever means is necessary to bring about complete respect and
0:48:34 > 0:48:38recognition of the 22 million black people in America as human beings.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41That's what we're for and that's what we're dedicated to.
0:48:41 > 0:48:44By ANY means... By ANY means?
0:48:44 > 0:48:47- By any means.- A bloodbath?
0:48:47 > 0:48:51Well, I think that, as deplorable as the word bloodbath may sound,
0:48:51 > 0:48:53I think the condition that negroes in America
0:48:53 > 0:48:57have already experienced too long is just as deplorable.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00And if it takes something that deplorable to remove
0:49:00 > 0:49:04this other deplorable condition then I don't think that this...
0:49:04 > 0:49:06I think it's justified.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09But don't you think there's also justification in the case
0:49:09 > 0:49:13for the gradual white and negro coming together?
0:49:13 > 0:49:17This gradual integration policy because after all it's a change
0:49:17 > 0:49:20of heart and mind and everything else for both sides.
0:49:20 > 0:49:23In America I don't think there's any gradual coming together.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26There may be a gradual coming together at the top.
0:49:26 > 0:49:30A few hand-picked upper-crust bourgeois negroes are coming together
0:49:30 > 0:49:33with the so-called liberal element in the white community.
0:49:33 > 0:49:34But at the mass level
0:49:34 > 0:49:38I don't think there's any real honest sincere coming together.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40If anything, there's a widening of the gap.
0:49:40 > 0:49:43Now if there is this widening of the gap, then,
0:49:43 > 0:49:45when do you see this explosion taking place?
0:49:45 > 0:49:48Well, there doesn't necessarily have to be an explosion
0:49:48 > 0:49:53if the proper type of education is brought about
0:49:53 > 0:49:56to give the people a correct understanding of the causes
0:49:56 > 0:49:58of these conditions that exist
0:49:58 > 0:50:02and to try and educate them away from this animosity and hostility.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05- But education takes a long time. - Not as long as legislation.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08Education will do it much faster than legislation,
0:50:08 > 0:50:09you can't legislate goodwill.
0:50:09 > 0:50:15Now you said at the end of 1963 that 1964 will be a very explosive year.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17In many ways, Mr X, it has.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20Has it been as explosive as you would have hoped?
0:50:20 > 0:50:25That's not the question. Has it been as explosive as I would have thought?
0:50:25 > 0:50:28It wasn't as explosive as I would have thought.
0:50:28 > 0:50:30I think the miracle of 1964
0:50:30 > 0:50:35was the ability of the American negro to restrain himself
0:50:35 > 0:50:38against extreme unjust provocation and dilly-dallying
0:50:38 > 0:50:41on the part of the United States government
0:50:41 > 0:50:44- where his rights are concerned.- Will he restrain himself so in 1965?
0:50:44 > 0:50:49I very much doubt that he will restrain himself so very much longer.
0:50:55 > 0:50:59Harlem's famous bookstore is a rendezvous for agitators
0:50:59 > 0:51:01but it's not the place you'd find real conspirators.
0:51:01 > 0:51:05Such people do exist, young people in burning little minorities
0:51:05 > 0:51:09such as the one I contacted called the Revolutionary Action Movement.
0:51:09 > 0:51:12They preach and plan the use of violence.
0:51:12 > 0:51:16They refused to let us take their pictures, but they recorded bits of their manifesto.
0:51:16 > 0:51:21Our movement aims to give Afro-Americans a sense of purpose.
0:51:21 > 0:51:27We aim at a world revolution of black and coloured rising against former slave masters.
0:51:27 > 0:51:33It aims to free us from the universal slave master which is capitalist oppression.
0:51:33 > 0:51:39The world is divided into haves, who are white, and have-nots who are coloured and newly emerging.
0:51:39 > 0:51:43Our movement aims to give Afro-Americans a sense of pride and dignity.
0:51:43 > 0:51:48To give Afro-Americans a new image of manhood and womanhood.
0:51:48 > 0:51:54To free them from colonialist imperialist bondage by whatever steps are necessary everywhere.
0:51:54 > 0:51:59To train peoples in what real revolution mean and what it's going to take.
0:51:59 > 0:52:02We need a black people's police force to defend us.
0:52:02 > 0:52:06We are at war with white America and its racist government.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10Our struggle in the north is an economic struggle.
0:52:10 > 0:52:15But economics and racism in this country go hand in hand.
0:52:15 > 0:52:20We feel that the Afro-American is strategically placed
0:52:20 > 0:52:26to cause complete chaos in American society,
0:52:26 > 0:52:29and stop the machinery of government.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31The black man has no choice.
0:52:31 > 0:52:33He is backed up against the wall.
0:52:33 > 0:52:37He is like an animal who has been wounded.
0:52:37 > 0:52:41Who wants to stay alive.
0:52:41 > 0:52:47His only choice is now to fight back. This is coming very soon.
0:52:47 > 0:52:52This summer will probably be the last summer for non-violence.
0:52:52 > 0:52:57We consider ourselves a nation under colonial bondage.
0:52:57 > 0:53:02Our position is one of two nations inside of the United States.
0:53:02 > 0:53:08If violence is necessary for freedom of the black man in this country,
0:53:08 > 0:53:11then violence will become
0:53:11 > 0:53:15a part of the Afro-American's movement.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25We have to control if we want black power.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28We want black power. We want black power.
0:53:28 > 0:53:33We want black power! We want black power!
0:53:34 > 0:53:39How did black power evolve at that time in Greenwood, five years ago?
0:53:39 > 0:53:41Well, we had talked about it.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44We had discussed it and we decided, well, Greenwood would be the place.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47So I just made a speech building up to it.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49Building up, building up, building up.
0:53:49 > 0:53:51Showing that it wasn't a question of morality.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53It wasn't a question of being good or bad,
0:53:53 > 0:53:55it was simply a question of power.
0:53:55 > 0:54:00And that we black people had no power. We had to have some power.
0:54:00 > 0:54:05The only type of power we could have was black power. Black power.
0:54:05 > 0:54:10Why do you think these ordinary people, sharecroppers and the like,
0:54:10 > 0:54:15did respond so quickly to the suggestion of black power?
0:54:15 > 0:54:18We knew their problems, we lived with them, we slept on their floors,
0:54:18 > 0:54:21we picked cotton with them. Our job was to organise them.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24We knew that they knew that they were powerless.
0:54:24 > 0:54:27They just couldn't find a way to articulate it
0:54:27 > 0:54:29but we knew that they knew they were powerless.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32Thus we knew once they knew the question was power.
0:54:32 > 0:54:36Once they were able to see and understand the concept of power
0:54:36 > 0:54:40they would of course respond. And they did.
0:54:40 > 0:54:45They did immediately. Not only them, but people all over the world.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48Dr King 's feeling was that although he had no problem with
0:54:48 > 0:54:50the concept of black power,
0:54:50 > 0:54:53he just didn't think it was a tactically wise slogan.
0:54:53 > 0:54:54But it did catch on.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57But the fact that it did catch on in the way it did,
0:54:57 > 0:55:00you have to accept the press is the press.
0:55:00 > 0:55:05Wasn't it a mistake to retreat from it and allow Stokely Carmichael to come running through with it?
0:55:05 > 0:55:11I think his sense was that slogans basically are substanceless.
0:55:11 > 0:55:17And that the important thing is to develop real power.
0:55:17 > 0:55:21And he used the phrase that the Catholics in America had power
0:55:21 > 0:55:24but you never talked about Catholic power.
0:55:24 > 0:55:28The Jews in America had power but nobody ever said anything about Jewish power.
0:55:28 > 0:55:31In fact, people who were really attaining power
0:55:31 > 0:55:34were always very anxious to deny it.
0:55:34 > 0:55:37And it was only people who had no power
0:55:37 > 0:55:43that went around sloganising about power and I think he's saw that...
0:55:43 > 0:55:46I think he liked Stokely.
0:55:46 > 0:55:48And he really didn't want to oppose Stokely,
0:55:48 > 0:55:51he saw Stokely as a very promising young man.
0:55:51 > 0:55:53And he didn't want to oppose him personally.
0:55:53 > 0:55:58He was always anxious to see young leadership emerge and grow up.
0:55:58 > 0:56:03But black power since then has taken on overtones of violence
0:56:03 > 0:56:06in nearly all its varieties.
0:56:06 > 0:56:09Surely this, right from the beginning, was a fear
0:56:09 > 0:56:13that Dr King had and was one reason for him opposing it?
0:56:13 > 0:56:15Well, I guess so.
0:56:15 > 0:56:20But even then it was defensive violence.
0:56:20 > 0:56:26And I doubt, I really believe that the connotations of black power
0:56:26 > 0:56:30were supplied by the white community.
0:56:30 > 0:56:35And when white Americans heard blacks say "black power"
0:56:35 > 0:56:36and clench their fists,
0:56:36 > 0:56:42in their mind, blacks were now going to do to them all the evil things
0:56:42 > 0:56:45that whites had done to blacks during the last 200 years.
0:56:45 > 0:56:48Now, I don't think that was in the thinking
0:56:48 > 0:56:50of even the most militant black men.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53I think black power for them meant the right to determine
0:56:53 > 0:56:56their own destiny. It meant power over their own lives.
0:56:56 > 0:57:00It meant power to influence their community and to make changes
0:57:00 > 0:57:03in their nation which brought about
0:57:03 > 0:57:05a better economic and political life for them.
0:57:05 > 0:57:11And so, you really had two groups missing each other very literally.
0:57:17 > 0:57:21Lucy Davies, wife of a sharecropper earning £7 a week
0:57:21 > 0:57:25remembers that it was in Lance County that black power first began.
0:57:25 > 0:57:28Yes, it was. Because we had all-white power here
0:57:28 > 0:57:33and it weren't a radical a word as they used it but the white
0:57:33 > 0:57:37had all the power because they were in office and we had no black,
0:57:37 > 0:57:39therefore we had no black power.
0:57:39 > 0:57:41We had no one to represent us.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43We were just playing tax without representation.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46What have you achieved with this black power?
0:57:46 > 0:57:48We have achieved great,
0:57:48 > 0:57:53we have achieved around 2,500 registered voters.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56More, but I can say 2,500 to be exact.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58How many did you have before?
0:57:58 > 0:58:00Before Stokely came? Not a one.
0:58:00 > 0:58:04- So you moved from none to 2,500? - Right.
0:58:04 > 0:58:06And we move into various programmes.
0:58:06 > 0:58:09We learn a lot about law.
0:58:09 > 0:58:12We learn our rights. And we learn where to...
0:58:12 > 0:58:16What source to tackle to get our rights when we needed them.
0:58:16 > 0:58:22I can't express the words and the meanings that I was when I heard that he was coming.
0:58:22 > 0:58:25He taught us how to organise ourselves.
0:58:25 > 0:58:28He would walk from door to door and he would tell us people,
0:58:28 > 0:58:30"Get registered to vote.
0:58:30 > 0:58:33"That's one of the first steps towards progress.
0:58:33 > 0:58:36"When you register, when you vote, you have control.
0:58:36 > 0:58:38"You have power".
0:58:46 > 0:58:49Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd.
0:58:49 > 0:58:52E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk