0:00:02 > 0:00:10This programme contains some strong language
0:00:26 > 0:00:30In the days before everyone took photos with their phones,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33it was common to say to an ambitious amateur snapper,
0:00:33 > 0:00:35"Who do you think you are, David Bailey?"
0:00:35 > 0:00:38From the 1960s onwards, the name of the east Londoner
0:00:38 > 0:00:42became synonymous with celebrity and fashion photography.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Such was his personal fame that he was the model
0:00:45 > 0:00:47for the glamorous camera swinger
0:00:47 > 0:00:52in Michelangelo Antonioni's 1966 film, Blow-Up.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Popstars, actors,
0:00:54 > 0:00:56gangsters and models
0:00:56 > 0:01:01were all caught in David Bailey's irreverently-posed black and white portraits,
0:01:01 > 0:01:04which challenged the formality of most previous images
0:01:04 > 0:01:06of the fashionable and famous.
0:01:06 > 0:01:11Bailey's work over five decades has now earned him a 2014 retrospective
0:01:11 > 0:01:13at the National Portrait Gallery in London.
0:01:15 > 0:01:20Because of the National Portrait Gallery exhibition, you're invited to look back at your work.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Do you look back with pride
0:01:22 > 0:01:27or are there things that you're disappointed by looking back?
0:01:28 > 0:01:31I don't really get disappointed because it's the past
0:01:31 > 0:01:35and the past doesn't exist any more so it doesn't really bother me much.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38Looking back, I hate nostalgia so...
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Not in everything. I like Cole Porter.
0:01:40 > 0:01:45But looking back on things, no, I don't really care.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48And, basically, what I do in the photography area
0:01:48 > 0:01:54doesn't really change because I've taken the same picture since I was probably 16.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57But looking back at your own work, do you feel,
0:01:57 > 0:01:59wow, what a career?
0:01:59 > 0:02:02No, I think, shit, what a lot of work.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05I'm glad I don't have to do it again!
0:02:05 > 0:02:08Next time I'll come back as something else, as a gardener maybe,
0:02:08 > 0:02:10an ornithologist, haha!
0:02:10 > 0:02:14And people often say that doctors make bad patients.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18So for you as a photographer, being filmed or photographed yourself,
0:02:18 > 0:02:22- are you uneasy with that? - No. It depends.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25I mean, I avoid photographers like the plague
0:02:25 > 0:02:28because they take too long and I'm nearly 76,
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I haven't got a lot of time left so I want to make the most of what I've got,
0:02:31 > 0:02:34not muck around with somebody taking hundreds of pictures.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37There are some amazing self-portraits of you.
0:02:37 > 0:02:38I don't know if they're amazing.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41- I've got a good face to work on, haven't I?- That's what I mean, yeah.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43I'm joking!
0:02:43 > 0:02:47- No, they're like King Lear, some of those ones.- Oh, I like you!
0:02:47 > 0:02:51King Lear, maybe! I'm not sure!
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Better than Macbeth, I guess.
0:02:54 > 0:02:59But speed, speed's important to you in working?
0:02:59 > 0:03:03No, no, it's people not getting bored.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06I mean, taking a picture is a bit like having sex.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10If it takes more than 20 minutes, someone's going to get bored
0:03:10 > 0:03:13and nine times out of ten, it'll be the woman too!
0:03:13 > 0:03:16When you came in, you had a camera around your neck,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18which I can't see now but you're probably sitting on it, are you?
0:03:18 > 0:03:21- Yeah.- Do you always carry one?
0:03:21 > 0:03:23Yeah.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27Yeah, it's like, I suppose if you haven't got,
0:03:27 > 0:03:30like I bet you always take your glasses everywhere you go?
0:03:30 > 0:03:32- I do.- So I...- And a pen.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36I always want a camera everywhere I go. I don't want to miss anything.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39Maybe once a year, you get something.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42But it's worth it just for that once a year.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45And how often would you spring into action, not very often?
0:03:45 > 0:03:48If someone rushed in here now and shot you in the head, I'd take a picture.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Good. That's reassuring to know.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55Actually, these days, almost everyone has a phone
0:03:55 > 0:03:57which has a camera on it.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00- Yeah, it's great, isn't it? - But... Is it?
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Millions of photographs being taken all the time, millions of people
0:04:03 > 0:04:06that think they're photographers, has that devalued the profession?
0:04:06 > 0:04:08No, the opposite.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11The same thing happened with Box Brownies in 1895
0:04:11 > 0:04:13when they came out, 1899 or whenever it was.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16They said this would be the end of art photography
0:04:16 > 0:04:18because everyone could take a picture. Nothing changed.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22It still went on, these stupid arguments.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25So no, I think it's great.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29It's better for me, because they can't do what I do.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32That's what I mean, so you draw a clear distinction
0:04:32 > 0:04:35- between professionals and amateurs? - Of course. Yeah, yeah.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37I always say they can take one great picture in their life.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42I've managed to do two so I've always got the edge!
0:04:42 > 0:04:46You know, if I get five great pictures a year, I'm really excited.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50- So how much does the equipment matter?- It doesn't matter at all.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52People say, "What's the best camera?"
0:04:52 > 0:04:54I say, "The one in my pocket or the one round my neck".
0:04:54 > 0:04:58It's not the camera that takes a picture, it's the person.
0:04:58 > 0:04:59It doesn't really matter.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01It's best to have that because it's more convenient.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Especially if you're in Nagaland
0:05:04 > 0:05:07or some of the mad places we sometimes end up in,
0:05:07 > 0:05:11or Sudan or somewhere, or Afghanistan,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14you don't want something you're going to have to muck around with,
0:05:14 > 0:05:16you need something strong.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18So professional cameras have their virtue.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21It's a bit like, you wouldn't take a Ferrari to the desert, would you?
0:05:21 > 0:05:24You'd take a Land Rover Defender or something.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26So it's choosing the right job.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28But if you always want to have a camera with you,
0:05:28 > 0:05:29the phone's a very good idea.
0:05:35 > 0:05:36Good girl, good girl.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39That's lovely. Hang about, this is marvellous. Good.
0:05:39 > 0:05:40Open your mouth slightly.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42'The winsome David Bailey,
0:05:42 > 0:05:45'who created the famous model, Jean Shrimpton,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48'and married the famous mother, Catherine Deneuve,
0:05:48 > 0:05:50'shows how to bring out the best in a woman
0:05:50 > 0:05:53'with a combination of charm and authority.'
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Good, lean forward slightly.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58Did you set out to become famous? Was it important to you?
0:05:58 > 0:06:00I don't know about fame.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02It's sort of...
0:06:02 > 0:06:07I mean, I've sort of been famous since I was about 24.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12It's a strange thing that Mick, Jean,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15Donovan, Duffy, Michael Caine, Terry Stamp,
0:06:15 > 0:06:17me, we all knew each other
0:06:17 > 0:06:20before any of us had really done anything, really.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22We just kind of...
0:06:22 > 0:06:26Mick was a bit more posh than we were and so was Jean,
0:06:26 > 0:06:28in a way, because their parents, well, Mick's,
0:06:28 > 0:06:30I think his father was a gymnast
0:06:30 > 0:06:35and Jean's was a nouveau riche kind of builder in Buckinghamshire
0:06:35 > 0:06:38or somewhere. Anyway, it was funny how that group of people
0:06:38 > 0:06:42all went on to do something. It was kind of completely fortuitous
0:06:42 > 0:06:44that they all happened to know each other.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47I mean, they're all basically from London.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51You know all that nonsense about the Beatles inventing swinging London?
0:06:51 > 0:06:54It was well on its way before I'd even done that trip to New York
0:06:54 > 0:06:57with Jean that helped change fashion.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59I mean, I didn't know I was doing that at the time,
0:06:59 > 0:07:04I just what it was a nice way to take pictures. And that's all a nonsense.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07The Beatles didn't make the swinging '60s,
0:07:07 > 0:07:09the swinging '60s made the Beatles.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12So all of you, you've been famous for, yeah, 50, 60 years?
0:07:12 > 0:07:13Yeah, God, yeah.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18And at the time before, when you knew each other at the start,
0:07:18 > 0:07:21were you ambitious, all of you?
0:07:21 > 0:07:25I was ambitious at doing what I was doing.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28And Mick was ambitious about Bo Diddley.
0:07:28 > 0:07:29That's why I liked the Stones,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32because they came out of the blues and the jazz,
0:07:32 > 0:07:34and when I was 15, or 14 even,
0:07:34 > 0:07:37I bought a trumpet because I wanted to play the trumpet like Chet Baker.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41In fact, that's one of the reasons I started taking pictures.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44I thought I'd take a picture of me looking like Chet Baker, haha!
0:07:46 > 0:07:49The 1960s, was it an extra ordinary period
0:07:49 > 0:07:52or is it overrated by people that weren't there?
0:07:52 > 0:07:58It was great for a couple of, maybe five or 1,000 people in London,
0:07:58 > 0:08:01but as somebody said, it wasn't great if you were a coal miner in Yorkshire
0:08:01 > 0:08:04or whatever somewhere else,
0:08:04 > 0:08:07or a shipbuilder in, where is it,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10with all the bridges, Newcastle or somewhere.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14So yeah, it was great because it was the first time, in a way,
0:08:14 > 0:08:19you know, you had like Turner and Hogarth got through the class barrier
0:08:19 > 0:08:24but it was the first time that kind of the working class had a voice,
0:08:24 > 0:08:25a creative voice.
0:08:29 > 0:08:33Yes, very tasty. Yes, I like it. Yes, yes!
0:08:36 > 0:08:39Go on, yes! Yes! Yes!
0:08:40 > 0:08:43When you saw Antonioni's Blow-Up in the '60s, did you,
0:08:43 > 0:08:45because it's always said to have been based on you
0:08:45 > 0:08:49- and they came to see you...- Bits of it were because of Francis Wyndham.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52He was drinking, as journalists do,
0:08:52 > 0:08:54and he said,
0:08:54 > 0:08:56"Bailey, I've got a confession."
0:08:56 > 0:08:58I said, "I'm sure you've got a lot, Francis."
0:08:58 > 0:09:02He says, "No, no, I wrote the 200-page synopsis for Antonioni."
0:09:02 > 0:09:04I said, "Oh...
0:09:04 > 0:09:06"That explains a lot,
0:09:06 > 0:09:10"because how did they know I paid £8 for a propeller?"
0:09:10 > 0:09:12And he knew because we were working together,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15we were doing David Bailey's Box Of Pin-ups.
0:09:15 > 0:09:16And he said, "Are you angry?"
0:09:16 > 0:09:19I said, "No, you're a journalist, what can I expect?
0:09:19 > 0:09:22- "I mean, a boy's got to eat!" - Let's go to your childhood.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27What's the earliest family photograph of you that exists?
0:09:27 > 0:09:30Oh, when I was a thing, you know.
0:09:30 > 0:09:31I don't know.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35- I don't know, a baby.- A toddler.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38- Standing?- Tinted. No, sitting.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40It's quite a nice picture.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43And your mum had taken you off to a studio to be photographed, presumably?
0:09:43 > 0:09:46You know, it's always the women that want to get you out of the mess
0:09:46 > 0:09:50and we lived in a two-up two-down,
0:09:50 > 0:09:53or 2.5 up and 2.5 down.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55And my mother's sister and her husband and kids
0:09:55 > 0:09:57lived upstairs and we lived downstairs.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59This is in East Ham after we were bombed,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02because where we were living got bombed. The house next door got bombed
0:10:02 > 0:10:04but we were all right because we were in the shelter
0:10:04 > 0:10:06at the bottom of the backyard. But the, uh...
0:10:09 > 0:10:13So my mother wanted to...be better.
0:10:13 > 0:10:18I mean, my dad used cockney slang and he had a great big razor scar.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22And my mother wanted things to be better.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25My mother looked like a very strong, kind of beautiful in a way,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28she looked like a gypsy. And they were always well-dressed.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31because people would say, "I thought you were poor." We weren't that poor.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35You know, I had cardboard in the holes in my shoes and things like that, but...
0:10:35 > 0:10:38If you trod on a pebble or a bit of glass, it was awful!
0:10:38 > 0:10:42The soundtrack to my childhood was broken glass, really,
0:10:42 > 0:10:44because of playing on bomb sites.
0:10:44 > 0:10:48If I hear broken glass now, I think of the war.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51Everything was, "Crack, crack!"
0:10:51 > 0:10:54And it was great fun breaking the windows on building sites.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58Despite the cardboard in the shoes and everything else, you went to a private school.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01If you call it a private school. It was, uh...
0:11:02 > 0:11:04Probably worse than the school I already went to.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07I think it was £7 a term. And, uh...
0:11:10 > 0:11:14The richest people that went there owned tobacconist shops,
0:11:14 > 0:11:18so you work it out for yourself. It was like, my mum...
0:11:18 > 0:11:21- Trying to better herself.- And, you know, because I was dyslexic
0:11:21 > 0:11:24and they didn't know what dyslexic was, I didn't truly know what it was
0:11:24 > 0:11:27until I was about 25. I used to get caned for it as well, by the way.
0:11:27 > 0:11:28For dyslexia?
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Well, they didn't call it dyslexia.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32They just called you stupid, did they?
0:11:32 > 0:11:34Stupid and arrogant.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37Because they thought I could really do it but I didn't want to do it.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40You were born in '38. Once you started to be aware of what was going on,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43it was the Second World War. That just seemed normal, did it?
0:11:43 > 0:11:45At what point did you become aware
0:11:45 > 0:11:47that this huge emergency was going on?
0:11:47 > 0:11:49I never thought it was. It was just normal.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I mean, it wasn't scary or anything. Uh...
0:11:54 > 0:11:56It just was. I remember, you know,
0:11:56 > 0:12:00they used to put brown tape on the windows
0:12:00 > 0:12:04and I remember being alone with my sister
0:12:04 > 0:12:06and all the windows came crashing in
0:12:06 > 0:12:10and I remember dragging her under the table
0:12:10 > 0:12:13because they always said, get under a table or under a doorway, you know?
0:12:13 > 0:12:17And that was the first time I was a hero, haha!
0:12:17 > 0:12:19Probably the last time I was a hero!
0:12:21 > 0:12:23And I got so much praise. I thought, "Oh!"
0:12:23 > 0:12:26And your childhood, you were being bombed quite a lot.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28People would say that was traumatic for children.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30Not for a kid, no, it's all nonsense, isn't it?
0:12:30 > 0:12:32It's just a bit of fun, really.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36- I used to like playing on the bomb sites.- Were you ever frightened?- No!
0:12:36 > 0:12:38Course not, no. What's there to be frightened of?
0:12:38 > 0:12:42- I mean, it's sort of...- Well, there were people trying to kill you.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45I didn't like Hitler. I was more annoyed with Hitler
0:12:45 > 0:12:48because he killed Bambi and Mickey Mouse, you know?
0:12:48 > 0:12:49He bombed the cinema?
0:12:49 > 0:12:51He bombed the cinema at Upton Park,
0:12:51 > 0:12:55which was one of those Egyptian Art Deco affairs.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58You know, at six, you think, God, I can't see Bambi any more,
0:12:58 > 0:13:02cos I associated Bambi and Mickey Mouse with that one cinema.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04I suppose that's where I saw it. We went to the cinema a lot
0:13:04 > 0:13:07cos it was cheaper than putting a shilling in the gas.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11- So you saw many more films than most children would?- Probably, yeah.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14And on Saturday mornings after the war, you'd...
0:13:14 > 0:13:16# Come along one Saturday morning
0:13:16 > 0:13:19# Greeting everybody with a smile. #
0:13:19 > 0:13:22I was quite odd for the East End, in a way,
0:13:22 > 0:13:25because I vaguely stopped eating meat when I was about 12 or 13.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28I remember arguing with my mum, saying, "By the end of the century,
0:13:28 > 0:13:30"half the population of the world won't eat meat."
0:13:30 > 0:13:34But anyway... And I used to do things that were,
0:13:34 > 0:13:35I don't know where it came from.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37Maybe my mother in a funny sort of way.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Definitely not my father because I never saw him.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42So what made you a vegetarian, do you think?
0:13:42 > 0:13:46I think not having meat as a kid,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48you know, as a small kid during the war,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51and then they suddenly put this meat in front of you and you think,
0:13:51 > 0:13:54I'm not sure I want to eat this kind of flesh.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57And because of the dyslexia, you weren't reading,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00that was your entertainment, that was your education, really, cinema?
0:14:00 > 0:14:05Completely. Hollywood cinema, not as art critics talk about, the New Wave.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08And did you think of Hollywood as glamour, glamorous?
0:14:08 > 0:14:12Yeah, I thought of people like Fred Astaire, who was a hero.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14John Huston was a sort of hero.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19People like James Dean and, you know, James Dean read Dostoevsky,
0:14:19 > 0:14:21so I thought, I'd better try and read that.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24And my Jewish mate called me a punk for not reading enough.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27He said, "You punk, you'll never be smart unless you read."
0:14:27 > 0:14:31So now I can read because I see the words.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34I can't spell them but I can see them. I can tell you what they mean.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36And then if you said, "Now write them down", I can't.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39So it's kind of like almost wordblind, in a way.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42And when you were going to the cinema, your eye for a face,
0:14:42 > 0:14:45did you have that very early on?
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Would you think about people's faces, how they looked?
0:14:47 > 0:14:50No, the first time I thought about the way people looked was my mother.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Because once a year we used to go up west, as it was called,
0:14:53 > 0:14:57and she used to go to Selfridge's. She couldn't afford the clothes.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00I mean, her favourite song was,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03# She may be weary girls they do get weary
0:15:03 > 0:15:05# Wearing the same shabby dress...
0:15:05 > 0:15:09# But when she's weary try a little tenderness... #
0:15:09 > 0:15:10And, oh! Bing Crosby.
0:15:10 > 0:15:11I mean, I love Bing Crosby.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14But anyway, I remember her going to Selfridges
0:15:14 > 0:15:16and it must've been around about '49
0:15:16 > 0:15:19because New Look had got to Selfridges at that time
0:15:19 > 0:15:22cos Dior did it in '48, I think.
0:15:22 > 0:15:28And I remember twisting round with this skirt, like a derbish,
0:15:28 > 0:15:31- what are they called? - A whirling dervish.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34Yes, and I thought, "My God, that's so beautiful.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36And that was the first...
0:15:36 > 0:15:40Woman I thought was beautiful, was my mother spinning around like that.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43My first visual image is the sides of buildings bombed away,
0:15:43 > 0:15:47because you used to have the wallpaper left and the doors left,
0:15:47 > 0:15:51and sometimes a cooker left, sometimes even a bed, left, in fact.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53My uncle,
0:15:53 > 0:15:57he slept through it. He woke up and looked round and there was no floor!
0:15:57 > 0:15:59He was sitting on the...
0:15:59 > 0:16:05So, that kind of collage is my earliest visual thing,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08that might have influenced my art, or whatever you want to call,
0:16:08 > 0:16:11whatever bollocks you want to call it.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15But then, also, the first beautiful woman you saw was your mother.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19- Have you ever been to a shrink? They'd make a lot of that.- No.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22If I went to a shrink, he'd have to go to a shrink himself!
0:16:24 > 0:16:27As you say, anyone can take photographs now,
0:16:27 > 0:16:31but when you were growing up, it was, it was a complicated business.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Cameras were bulky, developing was messy and complicated.
0:16:34 > 0:16:39When did you first have the opportunity to take photographs?
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Well, my mother's Box Brownie.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43When I was about 13.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46She used to give me her cooking things.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49And down the coal cellar, I used to, I didn't have a spiral,
0:16:49 > 0:16:51but I used to do that with the film.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55I used to love, nothing to do with anything,
0:16:55 > 0:16:59other than the magic of being able to do that in the dark,
0:16:59 > 0:17:01and you put the light on, and there was an image.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04And that's really what interested me.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07And it wasn't until much later, when I started seeing the jazz covers
0:17:07 > 0:17:10by William Claxton, and then later, I saw a Cartier-Bresson picture,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13I thought, "Oh, shit, there's more to this photography than I thought."
0:17:13 > 0:17:17So what kind of things did you take pictures of when you started?
0:17:17 > 0:17:18I was trying to photograph birds,
0:17:18 > 0:17:21because I thought it would be great to be an ornithologist.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24It would tell me about Latin.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28And I couldn't understand why the birds were always this big in my picture,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31because I didn't know there was such a thing as a telephoto lens!
0:17:33 > 0:17:35Also, they move a lot, don't they?
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Well, yeah, I used to set up a brick and oh! In the back yard.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41What, so to try to attract them to come and sit?
0:17:41 > 0:17:42Yeah, well, the seed,
0:17:42 > 0:17:46and then take the picture when they went on a brick.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48Right!
0:17:48 > 0:17:52You left school in 1953. You went to newspapers and Fleet Street.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55And in those days, journalists worked on typewriters
0:17:55 > 0:17:59and they produced copy, which was run around the building,
0:17:59 > 0:18:01and that's what you did, you were a copy boy.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04Yes, copy boy, gofer, kind of thing. Same thing.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06I'm minded to call it gopher.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11- Yeah.- The thing you see in films and documentaries where they shout
0:18:11 > 0:18:14"copy" and you race across - it was like that, was it?
0:18:14 > 0:18:16I remember them shouting a lot.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19Not particularly knowing what they were shouting about.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22The worst was running down to King's Cross from Fleet Street
0:18:22 > 0:18:25with the blocks for the advertising.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28So those were the printing blocks which would go to the train,
0:18:28 > 0:18:30- would they, to go to the printers?- Yeah.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Did you find that glamorous, newspapers?
0:18:33 > 0:18:35No, I thought it was more interesting.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37Because before that, I'd had lots of jobs.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41In fact, I was a bad debt collector when I was 17. That wasn't funny.
0:18:41 > 0:18:43I was really too young. I was only 17.
0:18:43 > 0:18:48You were supposed to be 21 to collect bad debts in those days.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52But my boss was called Mickey Fox, from Mile End. And...
0:18:52 > 0:18:55That was kind of fun, in a way.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57Was it scary, though?
0:18:57 > 0:19:00You'd get... It wasn't scary to get a black eye in those days.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03You know, you got thumped. That was it.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05And, er...
0:19:05 > 0:19:10There was more offers of sex than black eyes, I must say.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13What, sex, rather than, in exchange for the debt?
0:19:13 > 0:19:16Yeah, they'd say, "I can't pay you this week, but..." Yeah.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19And I used to put in the tosheroon, as we'd call it,
0:19:19 > 0:19:21two and six myself sometimes!
0:19:22 > 0:19:26It wasn't a compliment! It wasn't something you'd want.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28So, what, did you ever accept these?
0:19:28 > 0:19:29No!
0:19:29 > 0:19:31HE GIGGLES
0:19:31 > 0:19:34They seemed like old women to me. They were probably 22.
0:19:34 > 0:19:39Right, yeah, yeah. So you would pay the debt for them rather than have sex with them.
0:19:39 > 0:19:40A couple of times, yeah.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43- Two and six was called a tosheroon. - Right.
0:19:43 > 0:19:47It was never more than two bob a week or two and six a week.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51And then, I forget what they were called, the people,
0:19:51 > 0:19:55WE didn't even like them, people that dumped things in people's houses
0:19:55 > 0:19:58and say, we'll pick them up next week.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00And, by that time, they always dumped sheets and stockings
0:20:00 > 0:20:03because they were the two things women can't resist opening.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06So, once they open them, they would be put on the book.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08They were the HP firms?
0:20:08 > 0:20:10Yeah, yeah. Great Universal Stores.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14It was called the never-never, because you never, never owned it.
0:20:14 > 0:20:15And, er...
0:20:16 > 0:20:19But that, it was all signs on the doors, you know?
0:20:19 > 0:20:21If it said "DS",
0:20:21 > 0:20:24it meant "don't serve" because it meant they never paid.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26I forget most of them.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28Used to put milk bottles up against the door
0:20:28 > 0:20:30to see if they were in or not.
0:20:30 > 0:20:31Oh, what, so if you put that there,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33and if they came to collect the milk?
0:20:33 > 0:20:36- No, no, because they'd knock the milk bottles over and break them.- I see.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38I used to get beat up, and there was gangs,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42and the Barking boys and the Canning Town boys,
0:20:42 > 0:20:46and later, the Krays, they were more Whitechapel way.
0:20:46 > 0:20:48But, er, the gangs were accepted, you know?
0:20:48 > 0:20:51And if you got beat up, I got really beat up.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54There was this wonderful girl called Eileen Murnham.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57She looked like Snow White. She had blue eyes and black hair.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59Kind of rare.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03And I was sort of mad about her, and so was Terry Stamp.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07Although Stamp and I didn't know each other, we knew each other by sight.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09He was what they called "a face".
0:21:10 > 0:21:13And there was... HE COUGHS
0:21:13 > 0:21:16Sorry, and going down into Bethnal Street Station, Bethnal Green,
0:21:16 > 0:21:21I think it was Bethnal Green, no, it was Stepney Green Station.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25And he had a suede jacket on. This must have been '56 or something.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28And I thought, "Shit, that guy's cool!"
0:21:28 > 0:21:30So what did "a face" mean?
0:21:30 > 0:21:34It meant someone who was, who had a presence around town, you know?
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Round the East End. So he was a face.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41- Were you a face?- I guess so. I didn't think I was at the time.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45But, anyway, the outcome was, I danced with this girl.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47It turns out she was going out with the second in command
0:21:47 > 0:21:49of the Barking boys.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51So three of them did me up.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54And once you've been beaten up and you don't snitch on them,
0:21:54 > 0:21:57you're protected by them.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59After that, I was protected by them,
0:21:59 > 0:22:00because you sort of come on the firm, then.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03As they said, probably the worst words they ever said to me
0:22:03 > 0:22:07was from Reg, "Dave, mate, Dave, you're on the Firm now, mate."
0:22:10 > 0:22:13Oh, Christ!
0:22:13 > 0:22:14Just want to do pictures!
0:22:14 > 0:22:16And, er... So that was that.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19And Eileen Murnham, she emigrated to Canada.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21And married a bank clerk.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24So she could have had me or Stamp, Terry Stamp!
0:22:24 > 0:22:26I think probably she did the right thing!
0:22:26 > 0:22:27And you're part of that generation
0:22:27 > 0:22:32- that got called up for National Service.- Yeah, just missed it.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35I tried to get out. I tried to pretend I was gay
0:22:35 > 0:22:38and all the usual sort of tricks.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42They said, "What sport do you like?" "Oh, ping-pong!" It didn't work!
0:22:42 > 0:22:45So what, you went in front of this committee, did you?
0:22:45 > 0:22:50Yeah, in Wanstead. In Wanstead. I remember having to go away to Wanstead and being asked.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54And somebody told me if you, not walnuts,
0:22:54 > 0:22:56there's a nut that, you scrape it and put it in things,
0:22:56 > 0:23:00really hard nut, they said, if you take that for three days,
0:23:00 > 0:23:04it will make your heart go quick. So I took that for three days.
0:23:04 > 0:23:05Stayed up for three nights,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07and went and passed A1!
0:23:07 > 0:23:09LAUGHTER
0:23:09 > 0:23:12- So, you had to go, and then you ended up in?- Oh, I had a great time.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15I mean, you make the most of situations, don't you?
0:23:15 > 0:23:17I've always taken that existential view that,
0:23:17 > 0:23:20if something goes wrong, use it.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23It's not existential, it's really Zen in a way.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26So, you twist it around, and I had it solved.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28I was in Singapore and Malaya.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31In fact, in Singapore, I had my own hut.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33I had six guys working for me.
0:23:33 > 0:23:37I mean you can't, they were called coolies in those days, but six.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41And my own three-tonne lorry and I wangled a job called AOG clerk.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43Which means Aircraft On the Ground.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45So you had top priority, because to get your plane landed,
0:23:45 > 0:23:49I had to go and make sure that it was serviced properly.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53No qualifications at all, just a bit of bluff and talk.
0:23:53 > 0:23:58And then I realised, if I was on the jungle rescue team, I'd even do less.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02Less station duties! You know, station duty was boring
0:24:02 > 0:24:07because you had to polish your shoes, and wear a proper uniform, you know.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10And, er, I had a great time.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13And then I got the best looking WAAF-er in the Far East,
0:24:13 > 0:24:15so I really had it organised.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18And, on National Service, photography, you did some there.
0:24:18 > 0:24:22Oh, yeah. You know, but they wanted me to sign on for five years.
0:24:22 > 0:24:23No, thank you.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26So I didn't.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29But there was lots of photography groups, people taking pictures,
0:24:29 > 0:24:31and I took lots of pictures in Singapore.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35I've still got my Chinese pawn ticket, where I used to pawn it
0:24:35 > 0:24:39every two weeks, my cameras, to pay for the film to get processed.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41You know, out of my 24 shillings a week.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44And then you came back to London,
0:24:44 > 0:24:46and that's when your academic record, with the dyslexia,
0:24:46 > 0:24:49let you down, and you couldn't go to photography.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52Yes, no, I thought, it wasn't my suggestion.
0:24:52 > 0:24:53Because I didn't know there was,
0:24:53 > 0:24:56I didn't think too much about art schools, or...
0:24:56 > 0:24:57You know, something you did.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59And the Army said, "You should go to
0:24:59 > 0:25:03"the London School of Printing and Graphic Arts."
0:25:03 > 0:25:06So, I went up to see them and they said "No", because...
0:25:06 > 0:25:09they've claimed in the past, that I was there, but I didn't.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12I'd burn the place down, if I had my way!
0:25:12 > 0:25:15They said, you couldn't, you couldn't
0:25:15 > 0:25:18because you didn't have GCE's or something,
0:25:18 > 0:25:21I don't know what GCE's were, in English and mathematics,
0:25:21 > 0:25:25what that has got to do with taking pictures, is beyond my imagination.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27And photographers had lots of assistants
0:25:27 > 0:25:30- and that's how you got into it, that was the apprenticeship?- Yeah, yeah.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33John French.
0:25:33 > 0:25:34Nice man.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37But to be the main guy, were you thinking, I want to get to being...
0:25:37 > 0:25:41No. It seemed something beyond imagination.
0:25:41 > 0:25:46Even John French, who was a really nice gay guy,
0:25:46 > 0:25:48but he was hardly a great photographer,
0:25:48 > 0:25:51he was kind of a people's photographer.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55He never went to Vogue
0:25:55 > 0:25:59or Vogue Heaven, wherever they all go!
0:25:59 > 0:26:01I'm sure he's at the Daily Express Heaven!
0:26:01 > 0:26:03He was kind of a Daily Express...
0:26:03 > 0:26:05Lots of photographers, just because they're in the '60s,
0:26:05 > 0:26:07people think they were great, they weren't.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09They were kind of glorified press photographers.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11And we talked about it mainly being instinct
0:26:11 > 0:26:14and not being able to be trained, really,
0:26:14 > 0:26:16but as an assistant, did you learn things?
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Not from him! I had to unlearn things!
0:26:19 > 0:26:21I mean, technically, yes.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25You know, about processing, but not the way he took pictures.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28I had to try and get rid of it, because he was so staid
0:26:28 > 0:26:31and he never touched the camera, he used to look in the camera
0:26:31 > 0:26:33and when he said, "Still", you pressed the tip.
0:26:33 > 0:26:35And, in the end,
0:26:35 > 0:26:38you think, "That's good," and press it before him and he'd get very angry
0:26:38 > 0:26:41and sometimes I used to look at the clothes and think, "Oh!"
0:26:41 > 0:26:44It was mostly black-and-white, in those days, if it was colour,
0:26:44 > 0:26:49it was always on 10x8 cameras, and I used to think, "Oh,
0:26:49 > 0:26:52"they're white, he'll want a grey background."
0:26:52 > 0:26:54So, I'd put up a grey background. Then he'd say,
0:26:54 > 0:26:56"Who put the grey background up?"
0:26:56 > 0:26:59"I thought you'd want it..." "No.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01"Change it to black."
0:27:01 > 0:27:04He was only changing it, because I'd set it up before he did!
0:27:04 > 0:27:06And then I had notches on the tripod,
0:27:06 > 0:27:09so I knew what height for different things he wanted.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12So, they were always very formal posed portraits?
0:27:12 > 0:27:15Yeah, he always had a cigarette, he looked like Fred Astaire.
0:27:15 > 0:27:16Very elegant man.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19Quite a good painter, much better painter than a photographer.
0:27:19 > 0:27:21And, er,
0:27:21 > 0:27:24he smoked very much like that.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27He never lost his cool.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29I remember, in the darkroom,
0:27:29 > 0:27:33there was a curtain and I was loading up all the day shoot,
0:27:33 > 0:27:37and there was 18 of them sitting and I thought, "Shit! I can see them."
0:27:37 > 0:27:41"Oh, the curtain's not quite closed..."
0:27:41 > 0:27:44I pulled it across and, of course, there's a bloody light switch there.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47They were all there!
0:27:47 > 0:27:49I thought, "Oh, fuck me, I have lost the job!"
0:27:49 > 0:27:51So, I went to see him,
0:27:51 > 0:27:53I said, "Mr French,
0:27:53 > 0:27:55"something terrible has happened." He said, "What?"
0:27:55 > 0:27:58He said, "Oh, dear,
0:28:01 > 0:28:04"David, I'm shocked."
0:28:04 > 0:28:07He said, "Let's go and have a look." I showed him it and he said, "Well,
0:28:07 > 0:28:09"I can see why it happened, this isn't your fault,
0:28:09 > 0:28:11"this is whoever built the darkroom."
0:28:11 > 0:28:13I mean, because I pulled the curtain back over,
0:28:13 > 0:28:16I thought it was letting light in.
0:28:16 > 0:28:17So, I kept the job.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21What is it for you that a photograph should ideally do?
0:28:21 > 0:28:23If I like the way it is,
0:28:23 > 0:28:25it's not a question of what other people think,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29I couldn't care less what you think or what the editor of Vogue thinks,
0:28:29 > 0:28:30if she didn't like it, don't use it.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33And, er,
0:28:33 > 0:28:35I just think, I don't know.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38I am not interested in composition, all that silly nonsense.
0:28:38 > 0:28:41All that crap they teach you.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43It's the emotion in the picture that counts,
0:28:43 > 0:28:45it's trying to find something in somebody...
0:28:45 > 0:28:47People say...
0:28:47 > 0:28:49"Is he interesting?", EVERYONE is interesting.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52There was a film called The Naked City,
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Weegee, based on an Ouija board, called The Naked City
0:28:55 > 0:28:57and the voiceover said,
0:28:57 > 0:28:59"Everyone's got a story."
0:28:59 > 0:29:01I thought, "Shit! This guy's got it right!"
0:29:01 > 0:29:03So, whenever I do somebody,
0:29:03 > 0:29:08whether it's a builder, or a nuclear scientist or a poet,
0:29:08 > 0:29:12or...whoever, everyone has got a story,
0:29:12 > 0:29:15even the most boring people, or you think they're boring,
0:29:15 > 0:29:18have got a story, so I always try and look for the story in them.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20And there was a phrase you used once,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23which was about evaluating the character of the person
0:29:23 > 0:29:26you were photographing and that...
0:29:26 > 0:29:29It's a silent interview in a way,
0:29:29 > 0:29:31you're supposed to get something of them...
0:29:31 > 0:29:32Well, you do, you know,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35like you're sitting there with your toes pointing inwards,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38which I find quite strange, it's a bit like The Longest Day,
0:29:38 > 0:29:40when Richard Burton was smoking a fag
0:29:40 > 0:29:43and the American comes in and says, "Look at that German!"
0:29:43 > 0:29:44And the man says, "Yeah",
0:29:44 > 0:29:48"He's got his boots on the wrong foot!"
0:29:48 > 0:29:50You'd wouldn't have to tell me that,
0:29:50 > 0:29:52I would notice that immediately. I noticed you sit
0:29:52 > 0:29:55with your toes pointing inwards, which not many people do.
0:29:55 > 0:29:56It's because I got very long legs.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00I do not why you do it, I'm not a doctor, I just notice things.
0:30:00 > 0:30:03- No, it's true it's because of having long legs.- Is it, yeah?
0:30:03 > 0:30:08And I'm trying not to bump knees with you.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11In the portrait photographs, the image you end up with...
0:30:11 > 0:30:15So, for example, Andy Warhol leaning towards the camera,
0:30:15 > 0:30:18Michael Caine, cigarette in his mouth,
0:30:18 > 0:30:22John Lennon with his arms draped over Paul McCartney's shoulders,
0:30:22 > 0:30:25Jack Nicholson laughing in that amazing way into our faces.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29Would you go in with an idea of what you wanted to do?
0:30:29 > 0:30:32No, never. Never. I don't want to know.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35If I know what I'm going to do, then I'll get someone else to do it.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37There's no point.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41I mean, what I do is against a white piece of paper, mostly.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43I can do your other shit if you want and...
0:30:45 > 0:30:48So, I depend on the person to take the picture, in a way.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51I sort of charm you, be rude to you,
0:30:51 > 0:30:53seduce you,
0:30:53 > 0:30:56fall in love with you. I always...
0:30:56 > 0:31:00For that, whatever it is, 20 minutes, or half hour,
0:31:00 > 0:31:02depending how much fun you're having,
0:31:02 > 0:31:07it's not like going to the dentist, it's sort of...
0:31:08 > 0:31:12- And do you direct the sitter a lot? - Yeah.
0:31:12 > 0:31:13With dialogue.
0:31:13 > 0:31:17- I don't say, "Put your elbow there." - No, no.- I let them do that.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20And we're talking a long time ago, but that Lennon and McCartney image
0:31:20 > 0:31:24which is so often shown, still, do you remember what you did?
0:31:24 > 0:31:28Did they just start...playing around or what?
0:31:28 > 0:31:32I don't remember, really. I got on really well with John.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35I had more in common with John than Paul, really.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39Paul's a nicer guy, but I prefer arseholes
0:31:39 > 0:31:42and John was a bit like me, he was a bit of an arsehole.
0:31:44 > 0:31:46So, that image of Jack Nicholson,
0:31:46 > 0:31:49the way he's laughing which is something,
0:31:49 > 0:31:51that's how we think of him, that's something about him.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53- That's just an instinct? - Yeah, you can feel it.
0:31:53 > 0:31:57When I saw Easy Rider, I saw Jack like that, I turned to...
0:31:57 > 0:31:59I forget who I was with. I think...
0:31:59 > 0:32:02Catherine Deneuve, I think. I don't remember.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04I remember saying, "Shit. Jack's a star."
0:32:04 > 0:32:06That was the moment he became a star, when he went...
0:32:06 > 0:32:10HE SQUEAKS Easy Rider, terrible movie.
0:32:10 > 0:32:14But that moment Jack did that is that moment he became a star.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16Did you get on with Andy Warhol?
0:32:16 > 0:32:18Yeah. I mean...
0:32:18 > 0:32:21one of my achievements in life is getting Andy to talk
0:32:21 > 0:32:24in that documentary. Getting him to say hello,
0:32:24 > 0:32:27you'd feel like you'd achieved something.
0:32:27 > 0:32:29So, this is true, he was silent most of the time?
0:32:29 > 0:32:32He chatted to me a lot though.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35He used to say extraordinary things like...
0:32:35 > 0:32:40Kind of childish, in a way, but interesting, almost surreal,
0:32:40 > 0:32:42in the real sense of surreal,
0:32:42 > 0:32:44not in the fucking newsreader's idea of surreal.
0:32:44 > 0:32:48He used to say things like... I remember we were driving along once,
0:32:48 > 0:32:51going up to Baby Jane's house, Baby Jane Holzer,
0:32:51 > 0:32:54and I'm driving and he said...
0:32:54 > 0:32:57"Hey, do you ever wonder what happened to the people
0:32:57 > 0:32:59"that make buttons?"
0:32:59 > 0:33:01I thought, "Shit. That's a good one, Andy."
0:33:01 > 0:33:04THEY LAUGH
0:33:04 > 0:33:07I said, "Not really." But I liked the way he was thinking
0:33:07 > 0:33:10cos it made you think, "Yeah, what did happen to all those people
0:33:10 > 0:33:12"that made buttons?" What he was saying really is
0:33:12 > 0:33:15- everybody's interesting, in a way.- Matters.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17Everyone has a story, as you say.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19And you say everyone has a story, but have you ever had someone
0:33:19 > 0:33:23in front of you where you thought, "I can't do anything with this face?"
0:33:24 > 0:33:26No, sometimes the face is enough.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29The famous Indian director, what's he called?
0:33:29 > 0:33:32- Shakespeare Wallah and all those films.- Ivory.- No, Satyajit Ray.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35- Oh, Satyajit Ray, yeah.- No, Ivory, he was a producer, wasn't he?- Yeah.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38No, Satyajit Ray, really interesting man.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41He had a face like an Egyptian Mummy, a bit like Miles Davis.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44It looked like it was made of leather.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48I think I was using 5x4. I quite like plate cameras
0:33:48 > 0:33:51cos I can touch you when I'm taking the picture,
0:33:51 > 0:33:54whereas if you're looking down at my bald head, you think,
0:33:54 > 0:33:56fucking Friar Tuck's taking your picture.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59Whereas, that, I can talk to you and touch you.
0:33:59 > 0:34:01I couldn't get anything,
0:34:01 > 0:34:03so I went like that.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05I got the picture.
0:34:06 > 0:34:11I mean, it was kind of a rude thing to do to someone who's
0:34:11 > 0:34:13bordering on genius, I guess.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16It's sort of worth it.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18As you know, the Kray brothers,
0:34:18 > 0:34:20there was a certain amount of controversy,
0:34:20 > 0:34:23including from your fellow film-maker Lord Snowdon.
0:34:23 > 0:34:26Did you ever have qualms about...?
0:34:26 > 0:34:30- As you say, you'd been around them growing up.- No. No, why?
0:34:30 > 0:34:33Because they killed people.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36So do politicians. So did Churchill.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39So did Roosevelt. So did Stalin. So did Mao.
0:34:39 > 0:34:43I mean, all people that are really famous are all arseholes
0:34:43 > 0:34:48through history. There's not many Gandhis out there.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50Everyone who's famous...
0:34:50 > 0:34:52You know, if you were a Martian and you came to earth, you'd think,
0:34:52 > 0:34:56"These are very strange people cos half of them are killing
0:34:56 > 0:35:00"each other and the other half are watching football on television."
0:35:00 > 0:35:02You can see how confusing it would be.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06No. No, I think...
0:35:06 > 0:35:09I hate journalists or...
0:35:09 > 0:35:12Yes, if you're passionate about something, I can understand it.
0:35:12 > 0:35:17But I try to be observant, rather than emotional.
0:35:17 > 0:35:21- So, you're not morally judging the people?- No, no. I can't.
0:35:21 > 0:35:22Why would I?
0:35:22 > 0:35:27I tried to photograph Gaddafi for Harper's Bazaar
0:35:27 > 0:35:29and Graydon was all for it and he said,
0:35:29 > 0:35:32"It's good cos you're not Jewish, so you'll be all right there."
0:35:32 > 0:35:36Most of the photographers are Jewish like that in that area.
0:35:36 > 0:35:40Then he said, "Oh, no, I don't think so. It's a bit dangerous."
0:35:40 > 0:35:43Anyway, little things like that.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46But I wouldn't judge him.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48I mean, he's obviously a scumbag.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51But Reg and Ron were scumbags but...
0:35:53 > 0:35:57..they were a bit like the Cossacks. Have you read Tolstoy's Cossacks?
0:35:57 > 0:36:00They kind of keep themselves apart. They kind of...
0:36:00 > 0:36:02They wouldn't deal with prostitution or drugs
0:36:02 > 0:36:06cos they thought it was immoral. It's all right to chop off someone's head.
0:36:06 > 0:36:10It's a bit like being an insurance company, in a way.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13At least they're more honest than most insurance companies
0:36:13 > 0:36:15cos you knew where you stood with them.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17You didn't have to read the small print.
0:36:19 > 0:36:23- Were you ever frightened of the Krays?- No, not really. No.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25They came from my background.
0:36:25 > 0:36:28You know, probably, you were just as scared of the police
0:36:28 > 0:36:32as you were the gangsters. Gangsters were a normal part of life.
0:36:32 > 0:36:37When I used to go up to my dad's club in Hackney,
0:36:37 > 0:36:42on Fridays, I used to see him with these two guys talking in corners.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45One day, I said, "Who are those guys?" He said, "They're CID.
0:36:45 > 0:36:47"I'm paying them off."
0:36:47 > 0:36:52Cos it was either pay the gangs or pay the police. It was normal.
0:36:52 > 0:36:56Nobody judged anybody. That's the way it was.
0:37:01 > 0:37:06With photographing women, was it relevant
0:37:06 > 0:37:09- whether or not you found them attractive?- Oh, yeah, I think so.
0:37:09 > 0:37:10It helps.
0:37:12 > 0:37:16Yeah, that was early on, you know, up until I was about...
0:37:16 > 0:37:20Men started to appear much more in my pictures in the late '60s,
0:37:20 > 0:37:23but, obviously, working for Conde Naste, for Vogue -
0:37:23 > 0:37:28for American Vogue as well, not just English Vogue, or British Vogue...
0:37:28 > 0:37:31I say English Vogue cos it annoys them. And...
0:37:32 > 0:37:35Yeah, so it was mostly women.
0:37:35 > 0:37:37And then... Cos I didn't start...
0:37:37 > 0:37:41My early pictures were portraits for the Daily Express.
0:37:41 > 0:37:42That's where they saw my pictures.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45And there was a picture editor called Harold Kebald,
0:37:45 > 0:37:50who was a very nice man. He used to give me half a page...
0:37:50 > 0:37:52Well, it was a big paper in those days.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56He used to give me a half page on Thursdays.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58And on Mondays, it used to announce,
0:37:58 > 0:38:00"David Bailey's exciting new picture."
0:38:00 > 0:38:03And I hadn't even taken it, and that gave me a few sleepless nights.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05I was only 20 or something. I thought, "Ooh!"
0:38:07 > 0:38:09It says "great picture," and I haven't taken it!
0:38:09 > 0:38:12- Were they portraits? - Yeah, portraits, and things.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15Then I did a picture of a girl talking to a squirrel
0:38:15 > 0:38:19on the floor, you know. It's now become a sort of...
0:38:20 > 0:38:23..one of those iconic pictures, which... It's a bit silly.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27A girl on her knees talking to a stuffed squirrel with a few
0:38:27 > 0:38:30autumn leaves. But it somehow caught everyone's imagination.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32Then, my mate Donovan phoned me up.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34He said, "Oi, Dave,
0:38:34 > 0:38:38"was that an accident, or did you do it on purpose?"
0:38:38 > 0:38:41I said, "No, of course I did it on purpose!"
0:38:41 > 0:38:43He said, "You've just changed photography."
0:38:43 > 0:38:47Which was great, coming from Donovan, cos he was a big critic as well.
0:38:49 > 0:38:53# I'm a steam roller, baby
0:38:54 > 0:38:57# I'm going to roll all over you... #
0:38:57 > 0:39:00And then another way in which you changed photography was
0:39:00 > 0:39:03- when you went with Shrimpton to New York.- Oh, that was something else.
0:39:03 > 0:39:07Cos now there was cameras that they didn't want me to use, Vogue.
0:39:09 > 0:39:10They used to cheat.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13They used to blower the contacts up on an enlarger
0:39:13 > 0:39:15so that they thought I was using a bigger camera.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18But by the time they'd published them, I could get away with it.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21I used to try to explain, it's not a loss of quality,
0:39:21 > 0:39:22it's a change of quality.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25You always find a word to get around things.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28And, no, I wanted the girls to be more free.
0:39:28 > 0:39:29I mean, they wanted me to do...
0:39:31 > 0:39:34I mean, she was a nightmare, the woman.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37She wanted me to do girls leaning against lions
0:39:37 > 0:39:41outside the New York library. And I said, we've got better...
0:39:41 > 0:39:44old doo-dahs... Not very good either,
0:39:44 > 0:39:47but we've got Landseer's lions in Trafalgar Square.
0:39:47 > 0:39:49And that was a struggle
0:39:49 > 0:39:52cos they didn't want the kind of New York I wanted. I wanted Harlem.
0:39:52 > 0:39:55In fact, I did lots of pictures down in Harlem on that shoot,
0:39:55 > 0:39:58and people were shocked that I went down there alone.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01But I think if you just go to places
0:40:01 > 0:40:05and don't think it's going to be awful...it's OK.
0:40:06 > 0:40:07And, in those days,
0:40:07 > 0:40:12did male photographers hope or expect to sleep with the models?
0:40:14 > 0:40:15I don't think they expected to.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20- But it was a perk.- Most of them were gay anyway, in those days,
0:40:20 > 0:40:23most of the fashion photographers. So, they were fairly safe.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25You were more in danger than the models!
0:40:27 > 0:40:28Even an assistant.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31But, no, I think that's all a myth.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33I mean, if you're an airline pilot,
0:40:33 > 0:40:36you're probably going to sleep with a few air hostesses.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39And if you're a doctor, I bet you're going to sleep with some nurses.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42And if you're a film director, you're going to sleep with
0:40:42 > 0:40:45the script girl, or, you know, so it's normal, I mean,
0:40:45 > 0:40:48it's who you're in...who you're with, it just happens to be
0:40:48 > 0:40:50models who are more beautiful than most people.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53I don't know how much feminist writing you read,
0:40:53 > 0:40:54but they talk about the male gaze
0:40:54 > 0:40:57and the objectification of women in fashion photography.
0:40:57 > 0:41:00Oh, yeah, I got slagged off by all those people in the '70s.
0:41:00 > 0:41:02- Those silly women.- Did you...
0:41:02 > 0:41:04They weren't feminists Fay Weldon's a feminist,
0:41:04 > 0:41:07and she's a good mate, and she wrote one of my books.
0:41:07 > 0:41:08I thought she should do the book on my wife
0:41:08 > 0:41:11cos she's a feminist, and I thought that'd take the sting
0:41:11 > 0:41:13out of all the feminists that then attacked me.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15And they even attacked on that.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18They said, "How can you call a book The Lady Is A Tramp?"
0:41:18 > 0:41:22I think it's Rodgers and Hart who wrote the music, didn't they?
0:41:22 > 0:41:24If they took the trouble to read the words of The Lady Is A Tramp,
0:41:24 > 0:41:27they'd realise it's probably the biggest compliment you could
0:41:27 > 0:41:31pay a woman. So, do a bit of research before you judge it.
0:41:31 > 0:41:35And, then, I did another book of, kind of, exotic nudes,
0:41:35 > 0:41:38and Germaine Greer said, "Oh, it's bondage."
0:41:38 > 0:41:41I mean, it shows her intellect's a bit limited cos it wasn't.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45It was based on a Mexican, Bravo, photographer,
0:41:45 > 0:41:49who I think's probably one of the most important surrealists
0:41:49 > 0:41:53that ever lived, much more important than Dali, or somebody like that,
0:41:53 > 0:41:55who did, sort of, Disney surrealism.
0:41:55 > 0:41:57But Bravo is interesting,
0:41:57 > 0:42:01and the book was based on a Bravo picture that he did in 1935, I think.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04Weren't you ever affected by, particularly with the nudes,
0:42:04 > 0:42:08- the suggestion you were exploiting women?- Of course!
0:42:08 > 0:42:10Yeah, like, Titian did.
0:42:11 > 0:42:14I didn't mind exploiting nudes like Titian did.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19- But you had the power, though, didn't you?- So did Titian!
0:42:19 > 0:42:23Yes, but it doesn't necessarily excuse it.
0:42:23 > 0:42:25It's an unequal relationship, isn't it?
0:42:25 > 0:42:27No, it's not! They can say no!
0:42:27 > 0:42:30And if they say, "I don't like that picture," I wouldn't use it.
0:42:30 > 0:42:32I'd say, "Oh, you don't like it? Oh."
0:42:32 > 0:42:34Usually they don't like it not cos...
0:42:34 > 0:42:37And I'll tell you something about women often in that age,
0:42:37 > 0:42:38I think it's a bit silly,
0:42:38 > 0:42:41at a certain age still doing nudes, it's becomes a bit silly.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44But, for young people, it's normal. And...
0:42:46 > 0:42:48It depends on how good their body was.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51If they had a good body and felt confidence, they'd do nudes.
0:42:51 > 0:42:52It's nothing to do with morality.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55It was to do with, "How am I going to look in this?"
0:42:55 > 0:42:57And lots of them now I meet them and they say,
0:42:57 > 0:43:01"Thanks for taking those nudes because I wish I still looked like that."
0:43:02 > 0:43:08The photographs you took of your wife naked, also giving birth...
0:43:08 > 0:43:11- All my wives.- Well, yeah.
0:43:11 > 0:43:16But was that difficult to negotiate, or were they always up for that?
0:43:16 > 0:43:19- They were up for it.- Did you have to persuade them, though?- No!
0:43:19 > 0:43:21No. No.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23In no way.
0:43:23 > 0:43:25If you knew all my wives,
0:43:25 > 0:43:28you'd realise how strong... And my girlfriends, as well,
0:43:28 > 0:43:30they're all very strong,
0:43:30 > 0:43:32they've all got a tremendous sense of humour.
0:43:33 > 0:43:37And most men wouldn't want to be with them cos they're too independent.
0:43:37 > 0:43:40- But I love that. - You've been married four times.
0:43:40 > 0:43:44- Do you regard the first three as failures or successes?- No!
0:43:44 > 0:43:48They were all great. All.... No, no. I mean, I loved...
0:43:48 > 0:43:52Some, I wasn't married to, like Penelope, I was with for eight years.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55She's great. I mean, I love her, I loved her then, and I love her now.
0:43:55 > 0:43:57And Deneuve, I sort of loved her.
0:43:57 > 0:44:01There's some people you can love but can't live with. It's normal.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03Just because you love somebody,
0:44:03 > 0:44:06doesn't mean to say you'd live with them. And...
0:44:08 > 0:44:11So, I'm lucky. I was lucky to find Catherine, my current wife because
0:44:11 > 0:44:14she's probably the best thing that ever happened to me. I'd probably be
0:44:14 > 0:44:17dead without her cos I don't really take care of myself much.
0:44:17 > 0:44:21Did you try to end them well, the earlier relationships?
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Well, we're mates. All my best mates are my ex-wives.
0:44:24 > 0:44:28I never see the first one. That was a kid marriage, really.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31It was, kind of, for her to get out of where she was,
0:44:31 > 0:44:35and me to get out of the East End, in a way. But the...
0:44:36 > 0:44:40No, we're all friends. In fact, Catherine was funny.
0:44:40 > 0:44:42I didn't know we'd divorced even.
0:44:42 > 0:44:47I was in Paris doing a shoot, and she phoned me and she said, "Bailey,
0:44:47 > 0:44:51"we got divorced today." "Oh, did we?" She said, "Isn't it great?"
0:44:51 > 0:44:52I said, "Yeah, if you like."
0:44:52 > 0:44:56She said, "It's great cos we can be lovers now."
0:44:56 > 0:45:00It's... Most journalists would say that in recent years, celebrities
0:45:00 > 0:45:02and especially film stars, they've become much more
0:45:02 > 0:45:06protective of their images, layers of management, PRs.
0:45:06 > 0:45:10So, for example, by the time you take Johnny Depp, 1995,
0:45:10 > 0:45:13I think it was, that photograph, did you become aware of that?
0:45:13 > 0:45:15Did it become harder to photograph stars?
0:45:15 > 0:45:17No, he's great, Johnny Depp.
0:45:17 > 0:45:21I mean, in fact, I did him first in the dumpster, the skip,
0:45:21 > 0:45:23outside the studio.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25I watched him cos I got a little balcony, and I heard someone
0:45:25 > 0:45:28coming down the road and I thought, "First of all, it's a good sign,
0:45:28 > 0:45:33"he's by himself, he's not with ten lawyers, ten agents, and ten PRs."
0:45:33 > 0:45:39Cos then it's difficult. Then I probably won't do it. And...
0:45:40 > 0:45:44I open the door to him. He said, "I'm Johnny." I said, "I know, you look like a piece of shit.
0:45:44 > 0:45:45"Jump in the skip."
0:45:45 > 0:45:48And from that moment on, I had an affinity with him.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51You mention people turning up with ten lawyers and all that.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54I mean, has it become harder to photograph?
0:45:54 > 0:45:57No, cos I wouldn't stand for it. I'm sure it has...
0:45:57 > 0:46:00You have to push your weight around a bit.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03But you have to have some weight before you start pushing them around.
0:46:03 > 0:46:06And I just say, "I won't do it. Go away."
0:46:06 > 0:46:09I won't do somebody who wants approval or...
0:46:09 > 0:46:12I wonder about that - you would never allow image approval?
0:46:12 > 0:46:14No. Don't do it.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17I mean, I've turned down people cos they want the negatives
0:46:17 > 0:46:22- and things like that.- Go on, tell us. Who?- No, it doesn't matter.
0:46:22 > 0:46:24It's really interesting, go on.
0:46:26 > 0:46:29I think lots of those sports people want to own the image
0:46:29 > 0:46:32- and things like that. - Beckham types?- Yeah.
0:46:32 > 0:46:34- Have you ever photographed Beckham? - No.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40- I think he's great, by the way. - That's an amazing face, isn't it?
0:46:40 > 0:46:43Well, it's a good-looking face. I'm not sure it's an amazing face.
0:46:43 > 0:46:47More Greek than Roman. But, yeah, it's all right. It's all right.
0:46:47 > 0:46:51Celebrity is something that has also spread because of talent show,
0:46:51 > 0:46:52TV, the internet.
0:46:52 > 0:46:55There are many, many more celebrities than there used to be.
0:46:55 > 0:46:57Some of them don't last very long.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00Is the idea devalued now, of celebrity?
0:47:02 > 0:47:06I think it always was, in a way. It just gets more publicity now.
0:47:06 > 0:47:11It's a kind of... It's got its negative and positive, in a way.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14Somebody who's... I don't know.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17I mean, Marshall McLuhan more than Andy Warhol summed it up all.
0:47:17 > 0:47:19If you read Marshall McLuhan,
0:47:19 > 0:47:23you can see where Andy got some of his ideas from. And...
0:47:25 > 0:47:30In a way, would you rather be 15 minutes of fame, or no fame at all?
0:47:30 > 0:47:34So, it's debatable, isn't it? It doesn't interest me one bit.
0:47:34 > 0:47:36Although, in a way,
0:47:36 > 0:47:40my box of pinups was sort of partly responsible for that.
0:47:40 > 0:47:42But I did the people cos they were talented,
0:47:42 > 0:47:44not because they were celebrities.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47And I think there's always been that mixture of celebrities
0:47:47 > 0:47:51and talent, and, you know, hangers on.
0:47:52 > 0:47:57And if people want to watch some silly people wearing silly clothes,
0:47:57 > 0:47:59playing silly football, they can.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02But talent show TV really is saying, isn't it, you can
0:48:02 > 0:48:05have it for 15 minutes, and that's it, really.
0:48:05 > 0:48:07I'm not even sure it's 15 minutes any more.
0:48:07 > 0:48:09You'd be lucky if you got 15 seconds.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12But it gives everybody...
0:48:12 > 0:48:14I'm not against it, you know.
0:48:15 > 0:48:17Years ago...
0:48:17 > 0:48:19Not years ago, about five or six years ago, Anna Wintour phoned me
0:48:19 > 0:48:22and said, "Bailey, can you make Jordan look like a lady?"
0:48:24 > 0:48:27And I said, "Well, I don't know who Jordan is."
0:48:27 > 0:48:31- You thought it was a country! - I thought it was a river.
0:48:33 > 0:48:35And I said to the boys in the studio,
0:48:35 > 0:48:39"Who's Jordan?" They said, "Let's do her!" So we did her.
0:48:39 > 0:48:41And, actually, made her look like a lady.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43And, on one side of it, you think, "Ooh..."
0:48:43 > 0:48:46And then you think, "Why not? What's her alternative?"
0:48:46 > 0:48:49It's a bit like coming from the East End, you know, people say,
0:48:49 > 0:48:52he's a gangster, he's a car thief, he's this, he's dysfunctional,
0:48:52 > 0:48:54he stands on corners with hoodies,
0:48:54 > 0:48:58and all the normal things that people did in the East End.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00There wasn't too much choice.
0:49:00 > 0:49:03So, you got to look at Jordan and say, "What was her choice?"
0:49:03 > 0:49:07If you were in her position, would you choose to, I don't know,
0:49:07 > 0:49:08to melt into...
0:49:08 > 0:49:12Or to malt into pink? I mean, I don't know.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14So, when Anna Wintour said, "Make her look like a lady,"
0:49:14 > 0:49:17- she meant posh her up, did she? - Well, I never thought.
0:49:17 > 0:49:21I just knew what she meant. It kind of makes sense, doesn't it?
0:49:21 > 0:49:24And, actually, we did. We got her into...
0:49:24 > 0:49:28I thought we'd have problems with those...
0:49:28 > 0:49:29big breasts and...
0:49:30 > 0:49:34You know, cos couture clothes are very, very small.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36But she got into everything. She looked great.
0:49:36 > 0:49:38And I thought it was kind of...
0:49:39 > 0:49:42In a way, she wasn't sweet, but I felt...
0:49:42 > 0:49:45She said, "It's great to be able to wear these dresses
0:49:45 > 0:49:51"because couture houses won't lend me clothes." I thought, "Oh, dear."
0:49:51 > 0:49:53That's sad, you know.
0:49:53 > 0:49:56But you've got to look at it from their side as well.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59Post-production work, how much is acceptable?
0:49:59 > 0:50:03And what used to be called touching up and is now Photoshopping.
0:50:03 > 0:50:05Do you have a policy on that?
0:50:05 > 0:50:08Well, I don't like Raphael's paintings that much.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11But he used Photoshop more than anyone in history!
0:50:11 > 0:50:13HE LAUGHS
0:50:13 > 0:50:16It depends who I'm doing it for, what the job is.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19But, men, I hardly ever retouch.
0:50:22 > 0:50:25It depends on the job. People go on about it, it's normal.
0:50:25 > 0:50:27It's been normal since the Renaissance.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31So, even, in a way, you could say the Greeks. Cos they idealised...
0:50:31 > 0:50:34I mean, you can tell the difference immediately between a Roman
0:50:34 > 0:50:38sculpture and a Greek sculpture cos the Greeks idealised everything.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40They were, like, advertising in a way,
0:50:40 > 0:50:42cos it was always aspirational,
0:50:42 > 0:50:46whereas the Romans, I always thought the Romans were the first portrait...
0:50:46 > 0:50:50You know, those bronzes, they're the first portraits ever taken,
0:50:50 > 0:50:51in a funny sort of way.
0:50:51 > 0:50:55When someone new comes on the scene, Barack Obama, Adele, Lewis Hamilton,
0:50:55 > 0:50:58do you ever think, I want to photograph that person?
0:50:58 > 0:51:00No. Not really, no.
0:51:00 > 0:51:03Obama, I'd like to photograph him from when he started
0:51:03 > 0:51:05to the way he looks now.
0:51:05 > 0:51:07Now he's beginning to look like a very thin Mickey Mouse.
0:51:07 > 0:51:11He's sort of... His shirt's down here, his jacket's too big.
0:51:11 > 0:51:13- And who'd want that job? - What about politicians?
0:51:13 > 0:51:15You said all politicians are arseholes.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17Have you been approached by them?
0:51:17 > 0:51:19No, no, there's some good ones.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22- I like George what's-his-name, the one in number 11.- Osborne?
0:51:22 > 0:51:25Yeah, I like him. He's got a sense of humour.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27I mean, Boris has got a sense of humour,
0:51:27 > 0:51:30but I'm not sure he should be a politician.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33- Boris Johnson! Have you shot him? - Yeah, I've shot them all.
0:51:33 > 0:51:34I've shot them all.
0:51:34 > 0:51:37And I like Boris cos you can't help liking him,
0:51:37 > 0:51:40but I really like George cos I think there are a few things...
0:51:40 > 0:51:43I've done him a few times, and the few things he said
0:51:43 > 0:51:44made so much sense.
0:51:44 > 0:51:47As we've seen in this interview, you laugh a lot, you talk
0:51:47 > 0:51:50about making the best of situations, have you ever been depressed?
0:51:54 > 0:51:58Not really, no. I've got nothing to be depressed about.
0:51:58 > 0:52:02I mean, I'm quite lucky. I've got the most beautiful wife, who I adore.
0:52:02 > 0:52:04Kids that I now quite like.
0:52:04 > 0:52:07I taught them all chess, and they can all beat me now.
0:52:07 > 0:52:10That's interesting. "Now I quite like." So, you didn't like them
0:52:10 > 0:52:13- when they were younger?- Well, I had nothing to talk to them about.
0:52:13 > 0:52:15You know, I can't talk to somebody about football, or....
0:52:15 > 0:52:18Bzz-zz games.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21But once I could play chess with them and...
0:52:21 > 0:52:25It's the nearest I am ever going to get to sport!
0:52:25 > 0:52:28It's awful they can beat me now. And I'm not very good at concentrating.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30You've probably noticed cos I forget what we're talking about.
0:52:30 > 0:52:34If I'm watching a movie on television and a commercial comes on, I go
0:52:34 > 0:52:37off somewhere else and then I wonder what I was watching on television!
0:52:37 > 0:52:42- Do you still have ambitions?- To stay alive as long as possible
0:52:42 > 0:52:45so I can finish all the stuff I want to do.
0:52:45 > 0:52:48And, so, what are the things you want to do?
0:52:48 > 0:52:51Well, there's a load of books I'm churning.
0:52:51 > 0:52:52I wouldn't mind making...
0:52:52 > 0:52:55I used to make lots of movies, and documentaries, and stuff.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57I wouldn't mind... I might...
0:52:58 > 0:53:01..chat up Harvey Weinstein to try and do a film of my childhood,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03that would be interesting.
0:53:03 > 0:53:06But whether I've got the energy at my age, cos it's tiring.
0:53:06 > 0:53:09It's the most tiring thing in the world, directing a film.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13- So, it would be...- And sculptures, I like doing sculptures.
0:53:13 > 0:53:16I'm not through with painting yet, you know.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20You spend so long looking at faces,
0:53:20 > 0:53:23are you particularly aware of ageing?
0:53:23 > 0:53:25Have you looked at your own face very closely?
0:53:25 > 0:53:29Unfortunately, I look at my own face every morning when I clean my teeth.
0:53:29 > 0:53:31It's not a very pleasant sight.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37Ageing, yeah, ageing's... I don't mind dying.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39It's just ageing slows you down.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42I didn't really feel tired till I was 73.
0:53:42 > 0:53:45When I was 73, I thought, "Why am I tired?"
0:53:45 > 0:53:49I thought, "I know why I'm tired. I don't smoke, don't drink.
0:53:51 > 0:53:57"I do everything else. Don't eat that much." It's just... It's...
0:54:01 > 0:54:03It's annoying, more than anything. Annoying.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06Because roundabout four o'clock... I never eat during the day
0:54:06 > 0:54:09cos once you eat, it makes you sleepy, so I never eat.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12When I used to shoot commercials, I never had lunch cos,
0:54:12 > 0:54:15you know, you shoot a commercial, break at one,
0:54:15 > 0:54:17you don't really start turning over till four.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21Did you never drink, or did you give up?
0:54:21 > 0:54:23No, I gave up cos I realised I couldn't work at the pace
0:54:23 > 0:54:26I was working, especially commercials, you know,
0:54:26 > 0:54:28being there six in the mornings.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31I've probably made about 1,500 commercials in my life.
0:54:31 > 0:54:35So, you know, it's a different way of thinking to what
0:54:35 > 0:54:38I do in photography, or what I do in painting.
0:54:38 > 0:54:41Painting and photography's closer than making commercials.
0:54:41 > 0:54:43Making commercials is really...
0:54:45 > 0:54:46..extreme common sense.
0:54:46 > 0:54:49Like everything in life, probably, is common sense.
0:54:49 > 0:54:51The National Portrait Gallery,
0:54:51 > 0:54:55- it's a big deal having an exhibition of that kind.- For them?
0:54:55 > 0:54:58- Well, and for you, then. - Not so much!- Really?
0:54:58 > 0:55:01- Sandy, I try and wind him up... - Sandy Nairne.- For about five years, he's asked me to have a show.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04I've said, "No, I don't want a show in that backroom."
0:55:04 > 0:55:06You're sort of marginalised in photography.
0:55:06 > 0:55:10And, finally, he said, "All right, you can have the whole ground floor, like Freud."
0:55:10 > 0:55:13The key to it was Freud.
0:55:13 > 0:55:17Lucien Freud, so you're being put on the same footing as Lucien Freud?
0:55:18 > 0:55:22Probably by some people, yeah. Not by a lot of other people.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25- No, but give me...- It doesn't matter, really, does it?- No.
0:55:25 > 0:55:28Nobody knows anyway. Nobody knows what you do.
0:55:28 > 0:55:30There was a French poet,
0:55:30 > 0:55:33and very few people understand my type of photography anyway.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36They have to accept it because I'm everywhere.
0:55:36 > 0:55:39But it's not that they understand what I do.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42They know I do something, but they don't understand what it is.
0:55:42 > 0:55:43The average person wouldn't know
0:55:43 > 0:55:46the difference between my pictures and a passport picture.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49But then they wouldn't know the difference between a Picasso and...
0:55:51 > 0:55:55..probably a very good child's drawing. So, people don't understand.
0:55:55 > 0:55:58People say, everyone can take a picture now.
0:55:58 > 0:56:02Everyone can paint now cos I've never met a parent who didn't
0:56:02 > 0:56:04say their children couldn't paint like Picasso!
0:56:06 > 0:56:07In their dreams!
0:56:08 > 0:56:11The National Portrait Gallery exhibition, it puts you
0:56:11 > 0:56:14- into history. Do you think about that?- I've done one before.
0:56:14 > 0:56:18I've only been asked twice by the art establishment in this country...
0:56:18 > 0:56:21I've had more shows in America and France
0:56:21 > 0:56:22and Germany than I have here.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25But the...the only other show I've ever done
0:56:25 > 0:56:27was National Portrait Gallery.
0:56:27 > 0:56:31I did it with David Hockney and Gerald Scarfe in 1970, or '71,
0:56:31 > 0:56:35or something. So, there's that gap, cos I've never been in the Tate,
0:56:35 > 0:56:37or any of those places.
0:56:37 > 0:56:41But do you think about history, the fact that in 34 years' time,
0:56:41 > 0:56:44the biography of Jack Nicholson is published, it'll probably have your pictures in.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47Probably, yeah, at I'll be dead, so I won't care.
0:56:47 > 0:56:50Do you like the idea, though, that the pictures will carry on?
0:56:50 > 0:56:53No, I don't care. I don't care.
0:56:53 > 0:56:55Funny, going back to where we started with everyone
0:56:55 > 0:56:57being a photographer these days,
0:56:57 > 0:57:00has your kind of photography had its best days?
0:57:01 > 0:57:02No, cos there'll be something else.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05I mean, it's not your kind of photography, it's just...
0:57:05 > 0:57:08It's got nothing to do with photography, really.
0:57:08 > 0:57:12It's like saying is a stiff paintbrush finished?
0:57:12 > 0:57:15You know, it's just a different tool for producing your emotions
0:57:15 > 0:57:18or your idea of the way the world works.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20I mean, you wouldn't have had the Impressionists
0:57:20 > 0:57:23if you hadn't had got a stiff paint brush instead of a soft paintbrush.
0:57:23 > 0:57:28And, I mean, Leonardo, I think he only did one painting on canvas.
0:57:28 > 0:57:29Most of it was on wood.
0:57:29 > 0:57:33I mean, there's only about 12 of them anyway. So, things change.
0:57:33 > 0:57:36Leonardo wrote an open letter to the poets
0:57:36 > 0:57:38cos they said what he did was mechanical.
0:57:38 > 0:57:42They said you have to use a paintbrush, pigments...
0:57:42 > 0:57:44and wooden frames.
0:57:44 > 0:57:48And they said the only true art is poetry
0:57:48 > 0:57:50cos you don't need any tools to do it.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53And he wrote an open letter to them saying that painting was art
0:57:53 > 0:57:55and that they were wrong.
0:57:55 > 0:57:58Well, you could say the same thing about photography.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01Normally at the end when I say thank you to the guest, I use both names.
0:58:01 > 0:58:04But do I call you Bailey or David Bailey?
0:58:04 > 0:58:06Call me shithead, if you like, I don't mind.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08It won't change my life one iota.
0:58:08 > 0:58:10HE LAUGHS
0:58:10 > 0:58:12You can call me Bailey.
0:58:12 > 0:58:16- What do I call you, sir? - You can call me Mark.
0:58:16 > 0:58:20- Bailey, thank you very much.- Thank you very much, Mark. Is that it?
0:58:20 > 0:58:23- That was great.- Good, you were nice. I like you.- Good. Thank you.
0:58:23 > 0:58:25I thought you were going to be a bit of an arsehole.