0:00:23 > 0:00:26Many performers boast long careers,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29but Felicity Kendal first appeared on stage as a baby,
0:00:29 > 0:00:33in India, in a classical acting troupe run by her parents -
0:00:33 > 0:00:36the subject of the film that launched her professional career
0:00:36 > 0:00:38at the age of 18, Shakespeare Wallah.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42As a stage actress, she's continued to play Shakespeare,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44including Much Ado About Nothing,
0:00:44 > 0:00:46and new works such as Peter Shaffer's Amadeus,
0:00:46 > 0:00:48and eight plays by Sir Tom Stoppard,
0:00:48 > 0:00:51including The Real Thing and Arcadia.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55Her TV roles include Rosemary And Thyme and, most famously,
0:00:55 > 0:00:57The Good Life, in which her performance
0:00:57 > 0:01:00as a Surrey housewife green before her time
0:01:00 > 0:01:02helped to create a programme
0:01:02 > 0:01:05that audiences have been glad to see recycled for four decades.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Because of your family's theatrical background,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13it seems inevitable that you would have become an actress,
0:01:13 > 0:01:16but was it, or did you ever consider anything else?
0:01:16 > 0:01:19It was inevitable because I was trained to do nothing else.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21I had very little schooling.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26I mean, I had a lot of schooling, but it had no effect whatsoever
0:01:26 > 0:01:29because it was scattered over 13 or 14 convents in India,
0:01:29 > 0:01:33and I probably went for two or three terms a go,
0:01:33 > 0:01:35and then they moved onto the next one.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39So, I mean, it was very haphazard,
0:01:39 > 0:01:44and I was put to work when I was 12, probably a little bit before,
0:01:44 > 0:01:48but certainly by 12, I was working full-time.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50I wasn't going to school any more.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53So I wasn't qualified to do anything but acting.
0:01:53 > 0:01:54I had been trained.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57I also the imprint from my father,
0:01:57 > 0:02:02who said that the only thing in the world to do is to be an actor.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04Never own a house,
0:02:04 > 0:02:07have no possessions if you can possibly avoid them,
0:02:07 > 0:02:10play the best plays that were ever written.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14That was sort of imprinted from a... You know, not just on...
0:02:14 > 0:02:16I heard him say this, not just to me,
0:02:16 > 0:02:19but it was his sort of mantra - that's what you do.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Shakespeare, Milton and the Bible, the word - that's what's important.
0:02:23 > 0:02:29"You are born to be an actress. You're from two acting parents.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32"We're training you to do this." So that was already there.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Then I went through a period of thinking it would be awfully nice
0:02:35 > 0:02:39to be a secretary and have a short, tight skirt, read magazines and be like Doris Day or something.
0:02:39 > 0:02:45And then I eventually got to be a sort of older teenager
0:02:45 > 0:02:47and rebelled against this and thought,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50"No, I don't want to tour India for the rest of my life
0:02:50 > 0:02:53"playing Shakespeare - I've done this since I was a child.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55"I've had enough."
0:02:55 > 0:02:58At about that time, Ismail Merchant and James Ivory
0:02:58 > 0:03:01made their second film, which was Shakespeare Wallah,
0:03:01 > 0:03:04with my brother-in-law and my sister, and my father...
0:03:04 > 0:03:07And which is, in effect, the story of your family.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10Well, it's a sort of bastardised story
0:03:10 > 0:03:12because they actually had a great deal of fun,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15and the film is slightly nostalgic and beautiful,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18and it's about the end of the Raj in India.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20We were actually vagabonds.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24No way at the end of the Raj we were just having a riotous time,
0:03:24 > 0:03:27living the life of gypsies.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31So it wasn't actually the story, but there was a similarity.
0:03:33 > 0:03:34Good morning.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36Good morning.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38I hope you weren't too uncomfortable here.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40Oh, not at all, it was lovely.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42I think you're just being polite.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44I'm sure you're used to much better than this.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47Much nicer than I can offer you.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53Sometimes we go to sleep on station platforms.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55When you're tired, you don't mind.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58You don't hear the station bell going every time a train comes in
0:03:58 > 0:04:00and we don't have a bed.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02We just lie down on a stool,
0:04:02 > 0:04:05and cows and people and dogs walk all over us.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07Don't you believe me?
0:04:07 > 0:04:09'I got to the point - I then made the film,'
0:04:09 > 0:04:14and was now at point where I thought, "I must go and work in England.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18"I must get a job all by myself. I can't just stay here."
0:04:18 > 0:04:20I'd never thought of doing anything else -
0:04:20 > 0:04:23I was 17 - I thought I would be an actress, or an actor.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25And, luckily,
0:04:25 > 0:04:29the film went to the Berlin film Festival,
0:04:29 > 0:04:33and then onto the Academy in London.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37I came to England green, with a slight accent,
0:04:37 > 0:04:42and far too much jewellery and dark hair.
0:04:42 > 0:04:47And absolutely no qualifications, having not been to drama school.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50So, shock horror, "How can you possibly act?"
0:04:50 > 0:04:52And your father was horrified?
0:04:52 > 0:04:55He was more... He was beyond horrified.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58He was insulted, devastated, angry,
0:04:58 > 0:05:00heartbroken,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03shocked, and...
0:05:03 > 0:05:07It was the worst possible idea anybody could have, he thought,
0:05:07 > 0:05:09to go back to what he had left,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12which was degradation and the dole, you know,
0:05:12 > 0:05:14possibly.
0:05:14 > 0:05:19And, even worse, maybe doing terrible, terrible plays
0:05:19 > 0:05:23in the West End, really bad work, and being famous.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26That was also a terrible possibility for him.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29So it was a no-win situation.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Anyway, I arrived and stayed with my aunt
0:05:32 > 0:05:35in the house I was born in, actually.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40Thank goodness for her - she saved my life by giving me somewhere to live.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43Cos I had no money and no opportunities and no work.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47And I tried to get an agent, and I failed dismally.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50I couldn't get an audition, I couldn't get an agent,
0:05:50 > 0:05:52I couldn't get a toe in the door
0:05:52 > 0:05:56of this wonderful world that I am now part of.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00And I then thought, "Well, I have to do something else."
0:06:00 > 0:06:03But I didn't know what it could possibly be
0:06:03 > 0:06:07because I'm very bad at spelling and I have no qualifications,
0:06:07 > 0:06:10and even the jobs that I went for with the...
0:06:10 > 0:06:14You know, writing to the Bristol Old Vic, and the Old Vic,
0:06:14 > 0:06:18they said, "Send me your CV. Where did you go to drama school?"
0:06:18 > 0:06:20"Well, I didn't actually. I was brought up in India,
0:06:20 > 0:06:23"travelling with a theatre company playing Shakespeare.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27"I have done a lot of work, I have been on stage a lot..."
0:06:27 > 0:06:30"Well, if you have no qualifications, you can't get a job."
0:06:30 > 0:06:32So at the point of despair -
0:06:32 > 0:06:36and it was, after a year, pretty despairing -
0:06:36 > 0:06:39Ismail Merchant got me an agent
0:06:39 > 0:06:45because he was a wonderful man and people did what he told them,
0:06:45 > 0:06:46and he got me an agent.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50This question of luck, it amazes me in actors' lives, this,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52the way things turn on chance.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56In your case, The Good Life, which we'll talk in more detail about later,
0:06:56 > 0:07:00but which you recorded in this very studio on Sunday nights...
0:07:00 > 0:07:01- Ghosts.- Yeah.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03There is that bit of luck,
0:07:03 > 0:07:06being in the right place at the right time.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09The first bit of luck I had was with the BBC, actually.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13I couldn't get work for love or money,
0:07:13 > 0:07:17and my then agent had Sarah Miles,
0:07:17 > 0:07:19and she was going to do what was offered -
0:07:19 > 0:07:22a two-hander with John Gielgud.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25Those were in the good old black and white days.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28The thing was that I couldn't get a job,
0:07:28 > 0:07:30the agent said, "I tell you what.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34"There is this other person I've just taken on the books. Why don't you see her?"
0:07:34 > 0:07:37So, yes, I happened to be there and I got it.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42If Richard Briers hadn't come to see The Norman Conquest,
0:07:42 > 0:07:44we wouldn't have done The Good Life.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48- The play with John Gielgud - that was The Mayfly And The Frog.- Yes.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50He was very reluctant to have me,
0:07:50 > 0:07:52to start with - I had to go and audition...
0:07:52 > 0:07:55Well, not audition, but have lunch.
0:07:55 > 0:07:59It was, I think, only the second or third television play,
0:07:59 > 0:08:02but he'd always done something he'd done on stage first.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05It was the first time he was actually going to create a part,
0:08:05 > 0:08:09and he wanted to be surrounded by actors that he trusted and knew,
0:08:09 > 0:08:12not some young person from India who he had no idea
0:08:12 > 0:08:14if I'd ever been on a stage before.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17Anyway, I went and had lunch with him, and he was...
0:08:17 > 0:08:20I just fell in love with him. Charm beyond belief.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23And we did The Mayfly And The Frog.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25I was a little plump.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28The director said to me, "Well, you can have this part,
0:08:28 > 0:08:32"but you have to lose half a stone and go blonde."
0:08:32 > 0:08:34I was quite dark.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38So I lost half a stone and went blonde, and that's it!
0:08:38 > 0:08:41- The rest is history! - The rest is history.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43Don't worry, you're safe with me.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49What about my 25 bob?
0:08:49 > 0:08:51I never give money away under any circumstances.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54Now I'm going to show you my paintings.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57I've already seen your etchings.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00Don't be impertinent. I'm going to show you my paintings
0:09:00 > 0:09:03because they happen to be just on the way to the front door.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06When I interviewed David Dimbleby recently,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09who came from a different kind of showbiz dynasty,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12he said that in his later years he slightly regretted the inevitability of it -
0:09:12 > 0:09:15that he went into his father's profession.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19It's as if he never made any decisions about his own life.
0:09:19 > 0:09:20Have you ever felt that?
0:09:20 > 0:09:24Well, I think...there was a point...
0:09:24 > 0:09:27when I wished this hadn't been imposed on me
0:09:27 > 0:09:31because I couldn't do it, and I couldn't do anything else,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34and I was not qualified, and I was angry.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38And round about that time, and I was living with my aunt,
0:09:38 > 0:09:43I went to see Timon Of Athens with Paul Scofield...
0:09:43 > 0:09:45at Stratford.
0:09:45 > 0:09:50I saw a matinee, and then I went back to see the next matinee in the week
0:09:50 > 0:09:54because I couldn't believe the wonder
0:09:54 > 0:09:59of that performance, and the magic of the theatre.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01I had not...
0:10:01 > 0:10:07I'd been in plays all my life with my father's touring company,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10on desks and in little halls, and all over the place,
0:10:10 > 0:10:15and beautiful theatres sometimes, but I hadn't actually seen great acting.
0:10:15 > 0:10:20I would say with all honesty that was the week that I knew,
0:10:20 > 0:10:24"No, he's right. This is the world I want to belong to."
0:10:24 > 0:10:26I just want to be in that space
0:10:26 > 0:10:32with this kind of magical world
0:10:32 > 0:10:37where you can... For some reason that you can't explain,
0:10:37 > 0:10:41one person can control nearly a thousand people.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43Amazingly, only about 15 years later,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46you were actually acting with Paul Scofield in Amadeus and Othello
0:10:46 > 0:10:50- at the National Theatre. - I know, yes.- Spooky.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52It was a bit spooky. It was spooky.
0:10:52 > 0:10:57He was, again, an extraordinary, extraordinary actor to work with on the stage.
0:10:57 > 0:11:01He was so incredibly relaxed.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05We should talk more about your childhood in India.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07It seems... People have seen Shakespeare Wallah,
0:11:07 > 0:11:10people have read White Cargo, the memoir...
0:11:10 > 0:11:12It seems extraordinary and exotic,
0:11:12 > 0:11:15your childhood, but does it seem so to you, or is it just normal to you?
0:11:15 > 0:11:18It didn't seem exotic at the time.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I thought it was very normal, and I was a very...
0:11:21 > 0:11:24I think my reactions to it were like any child -
0:11:24 > 0:11:27sometimes it was fun and sometimes it was boring beyond belief
0:11:27 > 0:11:29to have to get up at 5am and get on a train.
0:11:29 > 0:11:34I've taken with me an amazing ability to travel - I love that.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38I find nothing easier than getting up in the morning and going somewhere else,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41with a lot of luggage or with no luggage.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45But I didn't realise how magical it was.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49I think it was a gift
0:11:49 > 0:11:53that was probably almost unique for a child
0:11:53 > 0:11:55for many reasons.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58One, because I was travelling all over India,
0:11:58 > 0:12:01to some of the most beautiful places in the world.
0:12:01 > 0:12:06In the evenings, I was listening to Shakespeare, sleeping in the wings.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10So I had this incredible education, if you like, of language.
0:12:10 > 0:12:15I was then surrounded by a group of completely potty,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18mismatched, in some ways,
0:12:18 > 0:12:24multicultural, politically incorrect people,
0:12:24 > 0:12:30who I was with 24/7, apart from the odd moment when I went to work.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33I also travelled with a menagerie of animals,
0:12:33 > 0:12:35because that's what I wanted, so they let me.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39A cat and dogs,
0:12:39 > 0:12:41and mice and birds.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43I mean, ridiculous!
0:12:43 > 0:12:47But it was free, absolutely free.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51Sometimes I'd be out in a field somewhere where they'd be working
0:12:51 > 0:12:54and I would be playing with the local goat.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57I remember doing things like climbing trees,
0:12:57 > 0:13:01eating fruit in the trees because I knew... A guava or something,
0:13:01 > 0:13:02because I knew what was there.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07So this extraordinary combination of being in touch with nature,
0:13:07 > 0:13:10being physically very comfortable as I was always warm,
0:13:10 > 0:13:16having very few restrictions, except for the fact that you had to do work.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20When I had to work, I had to work, so there were restrictions.
0:13:20 > 0:13:26But it was... And then suddenly going overnight on a bouncy bus
0:13:26 > 0:13:30all the way up to Simba with a lot of actors getting pissed and screaming and laughing
0:13:30 > 0:13:31and singing, and then arriving
0:13:31 > 0:13:35and having to do The Merchant Of Venice in the morning.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38It was unusual, and I think I was very, very privileged
0:13:38 > 0:13:42to have that childhood, though I didn't appreciate it at the time.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47You also saw two sides of India because you say in White Cargo,
0:13:47 > 0:13:48sometimes first class,
0:13:48 > 0:13:54sometimes third class on the train, depending on how the debts were.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58The difference between the weeks would be
0:13:58 > 0:14:02one week we'd be living with the Maharaja in a palace
0:14:02 > 0:14:07and hosted - we were being guests of,
0:14:07 > 0:14:11and the next week we'd be in some dark bungalow with cockroaches coming out
0:14:11 > 0:14:14and snakes running around in the loo,
0:14:14 > 0:14:18and we would have absolutely no money at all,
0:14:18 > 0:14:22or there would be suddenly a terrible scourge of influenza
0:14:22 > 0:14:26and all the cities and towns would close down, and the schools,
0:14:26 > 0:14:27and we'd have no money,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30so we'd be stuck in some ghastly little hotel.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33You cannot describe how ghastly it could be
0:14:33 > 0:14:35unless you've been through that.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39But it was... It was gypsy-like, I guess.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Kendal was a theatrical pseudonym. The family name was Bragg.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46- Now, a great Cumbrian name, carried on by Lord Melvyn Bragg... - Absolutely.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49- Yes.- You're not related?- Yes, we are!
0:14:49 > 0:14:52- You are?- Yes, he found out...
0:14:52 > 0:14:58It's quite far back, but certainly there is a connection somewhere.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02No, my father was born in Kendal
0:15:02 > 0:15:06and he was eventually a very young actor who became an actor-manager,
0:15:06 > 0:15:09and in those days you had to have a posh name
0:15:09 > 0:15:11and Bragg was not a posh name.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15There was a point... Even with Maggie Smith,
0:15:15 > 0:15:18she was brave at that period not to change her name,
0:15:18 > 0:15:22because Maggie and Smith, of course, now it's absolutely magical,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25but he thought that Bragg was not,
0:15:25 > 0:15:28so he thought, "I need a more romantic name
0:15:28 > 0:15:32"if I'm going to be an actor," and he changed his name to Kendal.
0:15:32 > 0:15:35And he'd taken a very bold decision. From the account in White Cargo,
0:15:35 > 0:15:39he seems to have been be a very bold and determined man. In the 1930s,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42in Britain, in the depression, as a young actor with your mother,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45he immediately wanted to set up a theatre company.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48That was always what he wanted to do.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51I think my parents met when they were both working in another company.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54They were very, very young and he fell in love with her.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57He said she came in in a white coat and a little beret
0:15:57 > 0:16:00and he fell in love with her on the spot and that was it.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04They were very young and they fell in love
0:16:04 > 0:16:07and then they thought they will start their own company.
0:16:07 > 0:16:12They toured Redditch and Bath and Hull and everywhere.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14And then I think he...
0:16:15 > 0:16:19The war eventually came out, and he was a conscientious objector.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23He didn't think he wanted to kill anyone or be killed, probably!
0:16:23 > 0:16:24More the latter.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28And that didn't go down very well so he thought, "All right,
0:16:28 > 0:16:32"I can't be a conscientious, they'll put me in jail, so let's join ENSA."
0:16:32 > 0:16:35So they went to India with ENSA during the war.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38Military entertainment. Every Night Something Awful...
0:16:38 > 0:16:41Every Night Something Awful, and I'm sure...
0:16:41 > 0:16:44THEY LAUGH They both fell in love with India
0:16:44 > 0:16:47and they played the containments and the Army barracks
0:16:47 > 0:16:51and some of the public beautiful theatres there.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54And so when they came back after the war,
0:16:54 > 0:16:57to the depression, if you like,
0:16:57 > 0:17:01and cold and gloomy and rationing, and he just thought,
0:17:01 > 0:17:05"I can't, we can't do this any more. We've got to go back."
0:17:05 > 0:17:10So he went. I was just born after the war and I was a little baby
0:17:10 > 0:17:12and he went back for three or four months
0:17:12 > 0:17:16and did a little bit of a tour and he had a lot of contacts.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19I don't know how, but he was that kind of a guy.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21He knew the maharaja, he knew this and he knew that.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25So he got a six months tour, thought, that was it, wonderful.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29Came back, had another look at England and thought,
0:17:29 > 0:17:33"Sod this for a game of dominos. I'm not living here," and went back again.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35And then I was, what? Four or five,
0:17:35 > 0:17:39and I never came back till I left home, as it were.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43From the account in White Cargo, your mother... You suggest quite clearly
0:17:43 > 0:17:48that she put your father and acting ahead of the children.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51She was a very strong woman.
0:17:51 > 0:17:56Didn't look...was pretty small, quite a delicate little creature,
0:17:56 > 0:17:59but she was really a little iron lady.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03And she had to make...
0:18:03 > 0:18:06I think she had to make a decision at one point
0:18:06 > 0:18:09when they left to go to India during the war -
0:18:09 > 0:18:12my sister was older - and she had to make a decision,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15she either went with my father and joined ENSA and spent...
0:18:15 > 0:18:19She didn't know then whether it would be three... They didn't know where they were going.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22They couldn't ring back and say, "By the way, I'm in Delhi."
0:18:22 > 0:18:25They literally went abroad and nobody heard what happened,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28because the secret war and all that.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32And she had to make a decision between leaving my sister,
0:18:32 > 0:18:36who was 12 and leaving my father.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38And she chose to go with him.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42So I guess Sophie's choice, in a way, but for her, not.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45And all her life she did have the...
0:18:45 > 0:18:52You absolutely knew that she was his sidekick,
0:18:52 > 0:18:57she was his partner. She was going to stand by him, whatever he did.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01There's a detail beloved of profile writers, and I can understand why,
0:19:01 > 0:19:04that you have almost literally spent your life on stage,
0:19:04 > 0:19:08because you did play a part even as a baby, they used you in a production.
0:19:08 > 0:19:13I think I was brought on when I was months old as the changeling boy in Midsummer Night's Dream,
0:19:13 > 0:19:17the traditional one - you just put it in a basket.
0:19:17 > 0:19:18And I had to be somewhere,
0:19:18 > 0:19:21my mother was feeding me. So that's what I played.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25You learned from Paul Scofield and others you acted with.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28Did you learn from your father as an actor?
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Did he formally instruct you in things?
0:19:31 > 0:19:35I think I learned some things from my father
0:19:35 > 0:19:37and I learned some things from my mother.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41I think the main thing that he had when I started
0:19:41 > 0:19:44was that the whole point is your sound,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47the sound you make is your instrument
0:19:47 > 0:19:50and that's how you will control your audience, how you will convey
0:19:50 > 0:19:55what you feel and my mother was very, very keen on elocution,
0:19:55 > 0:20:00so you don't slide down at the end of a line. "I'm coming to tea tomorrow."
0:20:00 > 0:20:02"I'm coming to tea tomorrow."
0:20:02 > 0:20:06Those sort of little... All little tips and things.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10Again, you don't start, if that's the wings -
0:20:10 > 0:20:14I mean, this is drama school stuff - but if the wings are there
0:20:14 > 0:20:17and you're going to come on, you don't start acting here.
0:20:17 > 0:20:23You start way behind so that by the time you're on, you're already way into it.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25It is too late to go on and start.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28Things like that that are just basic rules.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31And as we said, your training as an actor
0:20:31 > 0:20:34was being in your parent's company and in India and other places.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Have you ever fantasised about three years of RADA,
0:20:37 > 0:20:40four years in weekly rep, that it would've been better?
0:20:40 > 0:20:44Or are you satisfied that that was your education?
0:20:44 > 0:20:47I'm not sure I've thought about that very often,
0:20:47 > 0:20:49but thinking about it now,
0:20:49 > 0:20:54I wouldn't have changed the training I got as an apprentice.
0:20:54 > 0:20:59I think, in fact, I find it rather sad, the way it's so extreme now,
0:20:59 > 0:21:02the only way into the business is through school.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04And the apprenticeship,
0:21:04 > 0:21:08which used to be there even after drama school and the big companies
0:21:08 > 0:21:11where the young actors could go and watch Scofield
0:21:11 > 0:21:14and carry a tray and watch Vanessa Redgrave and Maggie Smith
0:21:14 > 0:21:19and Peggy Ashcroft and just be on stage with these greats,
0:21:19 > 0:21:21and you learn. I mean, you copied
0:21:21 > 0:21:24but there's nothing wrong with copying the greats.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27And that is not available, that apprenticeship.
0:21:27 > 0:21:33So my reaction is no, I was really lucky to have an apprenticeship
0:21:33 > 0:21:37of hours and years of learning how to put a wig on,
0:21:37 > 0:21:41learning how to make up, learning how to polish the props,
0:21:41 > 0:21:45learning how to... I was backstage doing stage management for ever
0:21:45 > 0:21:48when I was little, in-between going to school.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51After the success of Shakespeare Wallah, you come back to England.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54This is your portrait from White Cargo of yourself
0:21:54 > 0:21:58at that time when you came back to England. "I had come to India as a tiny child.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01"I could eat hot chillies, I spoke fluent Hindi,
0:22:01 > 0:22:04"but at 18 I had never been near a pair of stockings,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07"owned a coat or worn gloves.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10"My history lessons were of Nurjahan and the great Mogul Empire."
0:22:10 > 0:22:14- So you were, in effect, an Indian when you came back.- Oh, absolutely.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18Absolutely. I'd grown up speaking... I can speak, it's not perfect,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21but I have no accent, I have a very good accent,
0:22:21 > 0:22:24I don't have an English accent when I speak Hindi.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28And all the coats and the bits that you need,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31I couldn't cope with it.
0:22:31 > 0:22:32I just didn't understand it.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36I didn't understand the way you had to make an appointment to go and see somebody.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39And you didn't just turn up and they say, "Come and have lunch."
0:22:39 > 0:22:44That kind of Eastern hospitality that I had grown up with,
0:22:44 > 0:22:48I found sorely missing here, to be honest.
0:22:48 > 0:22:54I found it was quite a cold country to come to from India.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57Although the paradox of this is quite early on, the lazy description
0:22:57 > 0:23:00from theatre critics and journalists would be how English you were,
0:23:00 > 0:23:02the typically English actress.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04I know.
0:23:04 > 0:23:09Was there a kind of going into the phone box and transforming moment?
0:23:09 > 0:23:13My mother and my father spoke what they called the Queen's English.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16Though I had an accent with my friends and in India,
0:23:16 > 0:23:21my mother's English was very '40s, I guess.
0:23:21 > 0:23:25It was that kind of slightly plummy.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28And the big... It really took off in the mid-'70s,
0:23:28 > 0:23:32because of that double with Alan Ayckbourn's Norman Conquests
0:23:32 > 0:23:36and The Good Life. We talked about luck earlier, but that is simply,
0:23:36 > 0:23:38the fact you were offered those two things
0:23:38 > 0:23:41and the link between them, that one led to the other,
0:23:41 > 0:23:43I mean, it's a classic example of how that luck works.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46It worked, yes, it was luck.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49It was also... And Penny was in The Norman Conquests as well.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51- Penelope Keith, yes.- Penelope Keith.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55But I think it was one of those things that just happened.
0:23:55 > 0:24:01And Richard Briers came and then he came back with the director,
0:24:01 > 0:24:06and they said, "There's Penny, the next-door neighbour.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08"That's absolutely perfect."
0:24:08 > 0:24:12And I remember, Richard - Dickie, as I call him -
0:24:12 > 0:24:15coming into the dressing room after the show and saying,
0:24:15 > 0:24:18"It was very good and I have a script,
0:24:18 > 0:24:20"but it's not going to be very successful."
0:24:20 > 0:24:24He was, of course, you know, a huge star for the BBC then.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26I mean, huge, huge, huge.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28And I certainly wasn't and neither was Penny
0:24:28 > 0:24:31and Paul Eddington wasn't either.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34And it was all hanging on Dickie and he said,
0:24:34 > 0:24:39"I just want you to know I don't think it's going to be like my other series - long-running and wonderful.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42"Don't get your hopes up, because it's a quirky little idea
0:24:42 > 0:24:44"that a very few people might like,
0:24:44 > 0:24:47"but I like the scripts, I think it's funny
0:24:47 > 0:24:50"so I'm going to send you a script. Would you like to read it?"
0:24:50 > 0:24:52And that was how we started,
0:24:52 > 0:24:57not thinking - I mean, £100 or something, I got -
0:24:57 > 0:24:59not thinking in any way that it would go on.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03It was literally for the love of those seven scripts.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07And The Good Life, John Esmonde and Bob Larbey, when you read that first script,
0:25:07 > 0:25:10did you see her immediately, Barbara?
0:25:10 > 0:25:14No, what I saw was I wanted to work with Richard Briers.
0:25:14 > 0:25:15I mean, it was as simple as that.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18And I thought, "Right, I've seen a lot of the things he's done,"
0:25:18 > 0:25:22and I thought to be actually cast opposite him so I can work with him...
0:25:22 > 0:25:27It's always been something that's been really, really important to me - not so much the part,
0:25:27 > 0:25:31but the writing and who I'm working with.
0:25:31 > 0:25:36And all the way through my life, so far,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40things have worked out well for me when I've loved the script
0:25:40 > 0:25:42and I've worked well with the actors.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46And those are the choices that I've made and that was certainly the case.
0:25:46 > 0:25:50I thought it was a very good script, very funny, very witty,
0:25:50 > 0:25:54very economic, if you like, and I wanted to work with Richard Briers.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57It'll be just us.
0:25:57 > 0:25:58Doing it for us.
0:25:59 > 0:26:00What do you think?
0:26:00 > 0:26:01Hey?
0:26:02 > 0:26:04What do you think?!
0:26:06 > 0:26:07I need to think.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09- Garden?- Yes.- Right.
0:26:09 > 0:26:13'She was outrageously, sickeningly cute,'
0:26:13 > 0:26:19but that was a decision to do it like that as opposed to it being...
0:26:19 > 0:26:23a sort of realistic representation of how I was.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25I mean, it was actually acting.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28But hopefully it doesn't look like it,
0:26:28 > 0:26:30so then that's where people get confused.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33Whereas if you do that performance on the stage
0:26:33 > 0:26:36and then you go home and go to the pub, they don't think that was you on stage.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40They know you were acting, because there's a great big proscenium,
0:26:40 > 0:26:42or curtain, or division.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46But they hadn't realised when they cast you, you were perhaps one of the few actresses
0:26:46 > 0:26:50- in English Equity who had worked with goats in your childhood.- No.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53- That must have been quite useful. - That was very useful. And he hated them.
0:26:53 > 0:26:58Dickie, two or three things that he hates in his life
0:26:58 > 0:27:01and how he managed to put up with The Good Life, I don't know.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03It was his idea of hell.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06And mud? I mean, it's very funny.
0:27:06 > 0:27:12But we did laugh for years all together, it was an amazing, amazing group of people.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14But that's the interesting thing because on some series,
0:27:14 > 0:27:18particularly in America, there's a jockeying between the actors
0:27:18 > 0:27:20and they want more money than the other one.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23But it was genuinely tranquil, was it, on The Good Life?
0:27:23 > 0:27:27I think one thing that made it tranquil,
0:27:27 > 0:27:31we were all theatre actors and there is very much...
0:27:31 > 0:27:34there is a democracy in the theatre, there has to be,
0:27:34 > 0:27:37because you're reliant on somebody else.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40Richard Briers, he had trouble learning the lines, didn't he?
0:27:40 > 0:27:43- He did.- He used to have them written around the set.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47He used to have them written in little slips behind the teapot,
0:27:47 > 0:27:51or stuck onto a chicken or something.
0:27:51 > 0:27:56And... I mean, we did laugh all the time. It was too, too funny.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01I say this as a fact rather than a criticism, in sitcom acting,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03there isn't a lot of development, is there?
0:28:03 > 0:28:07It's clear watching those shows, you, Penelope Keith,
0:28:07 > 0:28:11- Paul Eddington, Richard Briers, you had those characters down. - Well, they did write for...
0:28:11 > 0:28:17I mean, Penny, actually, Penelope's character was not in the first, I think, one episode or so,
0:28:17 > 0:28:21she only spoke when she said, "Jerry," or something like that.
0:28:21 > 0:28:25And the second one, she did a little bit and they suddenly realised, "Gold dust here,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28"this is absolutely... It cannot be the Goods
0:28:28 > 0:28:31"and then the next-door people. It's got to be equal.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35"All four people are as wonderful as each other."
0:28:35 > 0:28:39So they did, you know, they did start writing for us.
0:28:39 > 0:28:44And then because they're writing for what you do, you do it more easily.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47There was... It's hard to believe, but there was a point, I think,
0:28:47 > 0:28:52when the two boys in one episode had to get very drunk
0:28:52 > 0:28:55on the wine that we'd made, or some kind of stuff,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58and that was written into the script
0:28:58 > 0:29:01and Penny and I said, "Excuse me, why don't we get pissed as well?"
0:29:01 > 0:29:05And, you know, we had to go to the top, top...
0:29:05 > 0:29:10Because they said, "No, we can't have two darlings,
0:29:10 > 0:29:15"young-ish darlings, on television getting drunk.
0:29:15 > 0:29:17"Can't say various words
0:29:17 > 0:29:22"and you can't have a woman who is supposed to be not, you know,
0:29:22 > 0:29:24"down and out, getting drunk."
0:29:24 > 0:29:27And we said, "But it's going to be fun and we've got to do it."
0:29:27 > 0:29:30So, God bless him,
0:29:30 > 0:29:33the director, John Howard Davies, said, "No, we're going to film it like this
0:29:33 > 0:29:35"and we can edit it out if you don't like it."
0:29:35 > 0:29:37And it was one of the funniest things.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40SLURRED: Gerry...
0:29:41 > 0:29:43..I'm a married woman.
0:29:45 > 0:29:46Well, so am I.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51I still fancy you.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53SHE GIGGLES
0:29:54 > 0:29:57Gerry, you mustn't stir things up.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59It's very flattering, but you mustn't say things like that.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02- Of course, one reads about it in the papers.- What?
0:30:03 > 0:30:05Wife swapping.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09- It does happen, you know. - SHE GIGGLES
0:30:09 > 0:30:14To give people a sense, who don't recall how big The Good Life was,
0:30:14 > 0:30:17on one occasion you had to leave studio six,
0:30:17 > 0:30:21which we're in now, and go to the biggest of the BBC studios.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24It seems astonishing now, but it's all recorded on film.
0:30:24 > 0:30:27The Queen attended a recording of it.
0:30:27 > 0:30:33Yes. There was... The BBC did a special thing where they said
0:30:33 > 0:30:36the Queen was going to attend, Her Majesty was going to attend
0:30:36 > 0:30:40with Prince Philip, was going to attend a live recording.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43And they chose - I'm not quite sure who chose -
0:30:43 > 0:30:45but they chose The Good Life
0:30:45 > 0:30:48as being the one they were going to come and see.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51- It's said that the Palace asked for The Good Life.- Well, I don't know.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54'Probably if it's said, then it may be true.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58'So we were told, "You're going to actually be in a bigger studio,"
0:30:58 > 0:31:02'and not only that, "You're going to have to perform for the Queen," which, of course, I quite liked,
0:31:02 > 0:31:06'because my father absolutely was in his element.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08'He thought it was wonderful.'
0:31:08 > 0:31:13And the little corridors and the whole entrance of the BBC,
0:31:13 > 0:31:18that week, all you could see were men in white overalls painting and polishing,
0:31:18 > 0:31:19there were red carpets laid,
0:31:19 > 0:31:25the studio had sort of leather seats and bunting, if you please!
0:31:25 > 0:31:26And flowers everywhere.
0:31:26 > 0:31:30We couldn't, we didn't know where we were. We'd never seen anything like it.
0:31:30 > 0:31:35And, of course, an invited audience that was going to be polite
0:31:35 > 0:31:37and if they weren't polite, they were terrified,
0:31:37 > 0:31:39because they could see, in the front row,
0:31:39 > 0:31:43Her Majesty there in full tiara and evening dress.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45I mean, the works.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48And we were there with our goats in our wellies.
0:31:48 > 0:31:53And it was a complete opposite of the audience that went, "Wow!"
0:31:53 > 0:31:58when he, Dickie forgot his lines or make silly, rude jokes
0:31:58 > 0:32:01about the other actor falling in the bucket.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04We couldn't do that because we were so afraid that we would say a rude swearword,
0:32:04 > 0:32:08or something would happen, so we were all slightly stilted.
0:32:08 > 0:32:12However, once it started, it was a great, great show.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15But it wasn't raucous in that way.
0:32:15 > 0:32:20But it was an extraordinary thing to have done those recordings
0:32:20 > 0:32:25in the studio with a wonderful, you know, anoraked audience in front of you,
0:32:25 > 0:32:28random people picking their noses and laughing
0:32:28 > 0:32:32and then, suddenly, all you can see are jewels and bunting. It was surreal.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35TV fame, it's an extraordinary thing.
0:32:35 > 0:32:39If you're in one of those really hit TV shows such as The Good Life,
0:32:39 > 0:32:44people will recognise you for ever, essentially, but that's something you had to adjust to,
0:32:44 > 0:32:48the level of public recognition after that.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51Yes, it came very quickly, quite early.
0:32:51 > 0:32:56I think in one sense, it wasn't too obtrusive
0:32:56 > 0:32:59because they loved the characters.
0:32:59 > 0:33:04So instead of being aggressive, or yeah, yeah, yeah,
0:33:04 > 0:33:10it was all the same, endlessly, remarks. "I thought you made your own soup.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13"I thought you grew your own cabbages.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16"Why are you buying a chicken?"
0:33:16 > 0:33:19It was always the same line and you just got used to it. It was banter.
0:33:19 > 0:33:26But that was quite, quite sudden that happened to me
0:33:26 > 0:33:28and you don't get that kind of recognition
0:33:28 > 0:33:31unless you're on television every week.
0:33:31 > 0:33:35And I think probably the thing that's unusual about The Good Life
0:33:35 > 0:33:38is that it's still being shown. So that continues.
0:33:38 > 0:33:43Mind you, somebody did asked me the other day, "Are you still working?" MARK LAUGHS
0:33:43 > 0:33:46Yes. SHE LAUGHS
0:33:46 > 0:33:51Have you ever become irritated by the durability of The Good Life?
0:33:51 > 0:33:56I think I went through a phase where I was, but it was about a week.
0:33:56 > 0:34:02And I'm not quite sure why, but it was like... Oh, I know what it was,
0:34:02 > 0:34:05I'd just done something which I was incredibly proud of,
0:34:05 > 0:34:11which was two plays in a row over two years and it was good work.
0:34:11 > 0:34:14And I did an interview and nobody wanted to know about it
0:34:14 > 0:34:17and all they wanted to talk about was The Good Life. I thought, "Come on,
0:34:17 > 0:34:20"get up to date, that was then and I'm not like that.
0:34:20 > 0:34:24"I'm not sweet and funny and milking goats any more."
0:34:24 > 0:34:28So, yes, it lasted a week and then after that it sort of turned,
0:34:28 > 0:34:32because I thought, "How extraordinary to have done some work
0:34:32 > 0:34:35"that people are still watching."
0:34:35 > 0:34:39And also when I flick it on sometimes,
0:34:39 > 0:34:43which I don't, I don't think I've ever watched an episode right through,
0:34:43 > 0:34:46but you're scrolling down, saying, "What fun can I have tonight?"
0:34:46 > 0:34:49And there it is, The Good Life and I thought, "I'll have a quick peek,"
0:34:49 > 0:34:53and I'm thinking it's going to be embarrassing, and it's extraordinary,
0:34:53 > 0:34:54the scripts are so good.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57And the other three... I mean, I hate myself, but I always did.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00And the other three are so...
0:35:00 > 0:35:03And it's very, very well done.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07So how nice is that, that it's still there?
0:35:07 > 0:35:09- So you do hate watching yourself? - Oh, I do.
0:35:09 > 0:35:13I don't watch, I probably should have, it's too late now.
0:35:13 > 0:35:14THEY LAUGH
0:35:14 > 0:35:15How are we doing?
0:35:15 > 0:35:19Well, sure we don't get much leisure time these days, but who needs it?
0:35:19 > 0:35:24I mean, take Margo and Jerry. Right now, they're probably lolling about in their Swedish armchairs,
0:35:24 > 0:35:28- sipping martinis, vegetating in front of their colour telly. - HE CHUCKLES
0:35:28 > 0:35:30I mean, who'd swap for that?
0:35:30 > 0:35:32I bloody would!
0:35:33 > 0:35:35Of the roles that followed The Good Life -
0:35:35 > 0:35:39we've talked about Amadeus and Othello at the National Theatre with Paul Scofield -
0:35:39 > 0:35:45- Clouds, Michael Frayn's play with Tom Courtenay in the West End...- Yes.
0:35:45 > 0:35:49..which was significant, because, directed by Michael Rudman, that's where you met him
0:35:49 > 0:35:53and then you've subsequently... You've effectively been married twice.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57- I'm now not married.- But... - I call him my boyfriend.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59SHE LAUGHS
0:35:59 > 0:36:02He's been your husband, followed by a gap and now your boyfriend.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05I can't remember how the offer came,
0:36:05 > 0:36:08but probably just through Michael Codron...
0:36:08 > 0:36:10- Who's a theatre producer. - Who's a theatre producer.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14And I love Michael Frayn's play, and this had been done in Hampstead,
0:36:14 > 0:36:16and they said Tom Courtenay. I thought, "Wow, what a combination."
0:36:16 > 0:36:20And then I met Michael Rudman and Tom Courtenay one evening
0:36:20 > 0:36:22and I didn't think much of Michael,
0:36:22 > 0:36:25because I thought he was rather American.
0:36:25 > 0:36:27I sort of slightly fell for him during that.
0:36:27 > 0:36:31But he wouldn't ask me out, which was rather cross-making,
0:36:31 > 0:36:34because I was in the play that he'd directed
0:36:34 > 0:36:36and he didn't think that was right. Anyway.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39But when it finished, we went out
0:36:39 > 0:36:43and that was...that was the next...
0:36:43 > 0:36:46terrible chapter in my life.
0:36:46 > 0:36:48- Terrible?- No, no, no.
0:36:48 > 0:36:50Most of the... I mean, in the end,
0:36:50 > 0:36:54most people meet their partner at work or at university.
0:36:54 > 0:36:58Those are the two places. But is it more likely in show business?
0:36:58 > 0:37:00I think it is.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03I mean, my first husband I met doing a two-hander
0:37:03 > 0:37:06and I think one of the things is you meet somebody
0:37:06 > 0:37:10and you have to become very intimate with them very, very quickly.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12So a lot of barriers go
0:37:12 > 0:37:15and if you do get on, you get on sort of double quick.
0:37:15 > 0:37:19It's like the glue sets faster.
0:37:19 > 0:37:22And some people have done it but it is quite unusual to divorce someone
0:37:22 > 0:37:24and end up with them again later.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Yes, I don't quite know what happened there.
0:37:27 > 0:37:29I think we divorced very badly,
0:37:29 > 0:37:33because it didn't take, so it didn't work.
0:37:33 > 0:37:36We actually went out to dinner the night we divorced. It was...
0:37:36 > 0:37:40something that maybe, you know, luck and whatever,
0:37:40 > 0:37:41maybe we need not have done that,
0:37:41 > 0:37:45but because those bonds were still there later on,
0:37:45 > 0:37:49they just... I just ended up back where I started, in this case.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52The playwright in whose plays you've most often appeared -
0:37:52 > 0:37:55apart from Shakespeare - Tom Stoppard, almost 20 years of work.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58On The Razzle, which was an adaptation, The Real Thing,
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Hapgood, the radio play, In The Native State,
0:38:01 > 0:38:05which then became the stage play Indian Ink, revival of Jumpers.
0:38:05 > 0:38:10During that long period, was he actually writing parts for you?
0:38:10 > 0:38:14No. Well, not at the beginning, no.
0:38:14 > 0:38:19And then Michael Codron again, my champion producer
0:38:19 > 0:38:24when I was much younger, did Tom's next play which was The Real Thing,
0:38:24 > 0:38:29which people think, or I've read, was something to do with me.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33It had absolutely nothing to do with me, he wrote it before I hardly knew him...
0:38:33 > 0:38:38- He's made that clear. It was a play about a playwright, who... - A playwright and an actress.
0:38:38 > 0:38:43It would be nice to think that's art mirroring reality,
0:38:43 > 0:38:47but it wasn't. Maybe reality mirroring art later.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49But certainly not, that was not the case.
0:38:49 > 0:38:55I think he then... I would say the play that he wrote for me was Indian Ink...
0:38:56 > 0:39:01..because that really was related to India. He grew up in India,
0:39:01 > 0:39:06it's to do with sisters, and that was definitely...
0:39:06 > 0:39:09It was actually, as you say, a radio play.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12- In The Native State. - In The Native State.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15And we did it with Peggy Ashcroft, it was amazing.
0:39:15 > 0:39:22And funny story about that. We did it and there's a scene, you know,
0:39:22 > 0:39:26when she takes off all her clothes because it's hot. And...
0:39:27 > 0:39:32There are two instances in accepting a play that I hadn't thought through.
0:39:32 > 0:39:37One was I'd done the radio play, so when it came to going to the Aldwych in the theatre,
0:39:37 > 0:39:40I thought, "I've done it, of course I want to do it,"
0:39:40 > 0:39:43and only after having the thing, I thought,
0:39:43 > 0:39:47"She takes her clothes off," which of course on radio is no problemo.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50It doesn't matter what you do on radio.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54You don't have to take them off, unless people think you do, you really don't.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58And that time, In The Native State, when you were doing that in radio,
0:39:58 > 0:40:00that was the time when the gossip columns were going mad.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03It is said there were tabloid reporters outside Broadcasting House
0:40:03 > 0:40:07- when you were recording that play because they were on the trail.- Yes.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09- That is true?- That was.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12- I was actually in Hidden Laughter, which was a Simon Gray play. - Simon Gray, yes.
0:40:12 > 0:40:16And that was a time when, yes, you had to...
0:40:16 > 0:40:21It was all that flashing stuff going on a lot.
0:40:21 > 0:40:26It was... I mean, I think anybody that's been through that...
0:40:26 > 0:40:30You know, I with everyone else reads the tabloids and reads the thing,
0:40:30 > 0:40:34and having a haircut and there I am saying, "Oh, look at that.
0:40:34 > 0:40:38"Can you believe what she's wearing?" and all that, it is natural.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42But it's pretty uncomfortable when you're going through it.
0:40:42 > 0:40:45But, as I say, you know, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47You can't...
0:40:47 > 0:40:53I haven't been burnt in the way that a lot of people in this business have.
0:40:53 > 0:40:55But also it's interesting,
0:40:55 > 0:40:59because at the time there's the whole enquiry into privacy and the press going on.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02You and Tom Stoppard tried to keep it as private as possible.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06Neither of you wanted to be in the papers with it,
0:41:06 > 0:41:08but, in the end, it's impossible, isn't it?
0:41:08 > 0:41:14I think any kind of friendship like that,
0:41:14 > 0:41:19I mean, the thing is that the combination of what people write
0:41:19 > 0:41:23and what is the truth - somewhere in the middle is actually the truth,
0:41:23 > 0:41:26and a lot of it is a waste of space trying to say, "Excuse me,
0:41:26 > 0:41:29"the real truth is this and this."
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Because people may not believe it,
0:41:31 > 0:41:34and, anyway, if something else is written, it's written.
0:41:34 > 0:41:40I mean, we were incredibly close friends for a very, very long time
0:41:40 > 0:41:44and I think it's because I divorced, that's when it all became...
0:41:44 > 0:41:48Which had actually got nothing to do with the friendship with Tom.
0:41:48 > 0:41:52And it is, you know, it is what it is.
0:41:52 > 0:41:55You can't go back and say, "Yes, it was exactly like that."
0:41:55 > 0:41:58It isn't something that I talk about a lot,
0:41:58 > 0:42:02basically because it's a period
0:42:02 > 0:42:06where there was a lot of unhappiness with a lot of people,
0:42:06 > 0:42:10for all sorts of natural reasons, which we were going through.
0:42:10 > 0:42:11I'd just had a little boy
0:42:11 > 0:42:16and I was being very unhappy about all sorts of things I had no reason to be unhappy about,
0:42:16 > 0:42:19so there was conflict at home which ended in a divorce.
0:42:19 > 0:42:23And I think the fact that he was there as a friend,
0:42:23 > 0:42:28then everyone jumped to conclusions very quickly. Um...
0:42:28 > 0:42:31and we continued being very close
0:42:31 > 0:42:38for quite a few years and he wrote... We worked very well together indeed.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42But neither of us are the kind of people who say,
0:42:42 > 0:42:45"Actually, this is actually how I feel and this is what happened."
0:42:45 > 0:42:50We tend to both be quite secretive about certain areas.
0:42:50 > 0:42:54- Would you work together again? - Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56You haven't for quite some time
0:42:56 > 0:42:58but that's because the roles weren't there.
0:42:58 > 0:43:03I think it isn't. I think it's because, you know,
0:43:03 > 0:43:07he wrote for different people at different times.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09I would be...
0:43:09 > 0:43:13I would be quite surprised if we didn't work together again.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16That would be a surprise to me.
0:43:16 > 0:43:211989, Best Actress Award from the Evening Standard. Now, your father would have approved of this,
0:43:21 > 0:43:24Much Ado About Nothing and Ivanov, Chekhov and Shakespeare double.
0:43:24 > 0:43:28That's the kind of thing he wanted you to do, isn't it?
0:43:28 > 0:43:34Absolutely. I mean, that to him was... That's exactly what he wanted.
0:43:34 > 0:43:38I remember I did something which got very good reviews
0:43:38 > 0:43:42and it was some series a very long time ago and he said,
0:43:42 > 0:43:44"This is not how you're going, is it?"
0:43:44 > 0:43:48And then I auditioned for a film, which was a Bond film,
0:43:48 > 0:43:51which I didn't get and he said, "Thank Christ for that."
0:43:51 > 0:43:56- Which Bond film?- I can't remember. It was quite a long time ago.
0:43:56 > 0:43:59It was for one of the dolly birds, which I was completely not right for.
0:43:59 > 0:44:05And he said, "That's fantastic!" I said, "Are you crazy?"
0:44:05 > 0:44:09But, yes. That was his idea -
0:44:09 > 0:44:11do Shakespeare and do it well.
0:44:11 > 0:44:14The problem The Good Life gave you was following it on TV,
0:44:14 > 0:44:17and there were various attempts. When you look at it now,
0:44:17 > 0:44:21- you worked through all the possible relationships a woman could have. - Yes.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23There were the two Carla Lane shows,
0:44:23 > 0:44:27there was Solo, in which a woman, her boyfriend cheats on her, she's on her own,
0:44:27 > 0:44:32there was The Mistress, in which she's having an adulterous relationship and then,
0:44:32 > 0:44:37which wasn't Carla Lane, it was Michael Aitkens, Honey For Tea, in which you were playing a widow.
0:44:37 > 0:44:41- Were you conscious you were going through the variations? - I think I was.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44I think, in a way, they were all too similar,
0:44:44 > 0:44:47even though they were different stories.
0:44:47 > 0:44:51I think, looking back on it, what was wrong
0:44:51 > 0:44:55was that I was very successful at being slightly kooky.
0:44:56 > 0:45:01But I think what happened was when a script was written for me,
0:45:01 > 0:45:07they still tried to use some of the same ingredients in it.
0:45:07 > 0:45:12And because I wasn't playing that part, it didn't quite work.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16And I think I would have been much cleverer to go for something
0:45:16 > 0:45:20a little bit... something more extremely different.
0:45:20 > 0:45:22And I think that was what was wrong.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24They were still quite cute little women,
0:45:24 > 0:45:25and as the years went on,
0:45:25 > 0:45:29people wanted something a little bit more challenging.
0:45:30 > 0:45:33Oh, you're back, are you?
0:45:33 > 0:45:37How do I feel? I feel fine, just fine.
0:45:37 > 0:45:41I attended to all my enemies. Gave up my job.
0:45:41 > 0:45:46Got three others, left them, and fell off my bike.
0:45:46 > 0:45:49I've completely confused my mother. She thinks I'm a lesbian.
0:45:49 > 0:45:50How do I feel?
0:45:50 > 0:45:53How do I feel?
0:45:53 > 0:45:55I feel frightened.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59It's also the bad side of TV fame, isn't it? I am told by the BBC
0:45:59 > 0:46:02that some of the audience reaction to The Mistress was,
0:46:02 > 0:46:05"Barbara Good is having an affair. We can't..."
0:46:05 > 0:46:08Oh, they didn't like that at all. They really didn't like that.
0:46:08 > 0:46:12In fact, I got quite a lot of rude letters, saying "How can you play this kind of woman?"
0:46:12 > 0:46:17as if I was letting Barbara Good down.
0:46:17 > 0:46:20But, as I say, even so, it was still quite funny and sweet,
0:46:20 > 0:46:26whereas if that character had been edgy and aggressive,
0:46:26 > 0:46:30it would have removed itself from Barbara so much they wouldn't have objected, if that makes sense.
0:46:30 > 0:46:33- I thought we'd take a weekend. - Don't say anything.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36Don't try and make up to me, don't say a thing.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39- When?- Soon.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42- Where?- Anywhere.
0:46:42 > 0:46:43- How?- Somehow.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49It's not my fault we're in this mess.
0:46:49 > 0:46:51You could have ignored me that first day.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53You gave me the come-on.
0:46:54 > 0:46:59Oh, yes, I go to bed with everybody who comes into the shop to buy flowers for his wife.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02The question of feminism, because when we look back,
0:47:02 > 0:47:06you were Rear of the Year at one point, at the peak of your...
0:47:06 > 0:47:08- More than once.- More than once.
0:47:08 > 0:47:10- How many years?- I think two.
0:47:10 > 0:47:14Did you ever have feminist qualms about that kind of stuff?
0:47:14 > 0:47:17The qualms I had were two things, one after another.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20They said "You've won this Rear of the Year."
0:47:20 > 0:47:24I thought, "Well, that's nice." "And you get 70 pairs of jeans."
0:47:24 > 0:47:27I thought, "I wear nothing but jeans, bring them on, send them round."
0:47:27 > 0:47:31"OK, we're sending them round tomorrow and we're sending a photographer with them.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35"So when you try all the jeans on, three pairs,
0:47:35 > 0:47:38"please have some photographs taken looking at your butt in these jeans."
0:47:38 > 0:47:42I said, "No, I'll get the award, but I'm not going to have my photograph taken looking at my butt,
0:47:42 > 0:47:44"but send the jeans, by all means."
0:47:44 > 0:47:47And I never got the jeans. So that was my take on that.
0:47:47 > 0:47:52In other words, no, you can't photograph my butt because you give me an award.
0:47:52 > 0:47:54It's an astonishingly sexist idea, isn't it?
0:47:54 > 0:47:58Yes, so that was my reaction to that.
0:47:58 > 0:48:03And I think also, thinking about it,
0:48:03 > 0:48:07even though I was playing fluffy Barbara,
0:48:07 > 0:48:10I've always done exactly as I wanted on my own terms,
0:48:10 > 0:48:15and I think that is what we are trying to fight for.
0:48:15 > 0:48:19Having said that, in our business it is a little more equal than in a lot of businesses.
0:48:19 > 0:48:24You do go in there as an actor on a par, maybe not the same money, but that comes later.
0:48:24 > 0:48:29But more equal than in your early days, because in the early days of your career
0:48:29 > 0:48:33there was blatant sexism and indeed sexual harassment, wasn't there, in showbiz?
0:48:33 > 0:48:38I think there was, and I think that's why I considered myself a feminist,
0:48:38 > 0:48:42and I never considered myself to be a little woman
0:48:42 > 0:48:46who wanted to please anyone unless it was on my own terms.
0:48:46 > 0:48:51When I went into the business, early on in the auditioning days,
0:48:51 > 0:48:55it was absolutely the norm to hear or experience
0:48:55 > 0:48:58that one was chased round the desk,
0:48:58 > 0:49:01and you would get the job if you went out to lunch,
0:49:01 > 0:49:03dinner and maybe a few more things.
0:49:03 > 0:49:06Certainly in films, certainly with agents.
0:49:06 > 0:49:10There was a couple of famous people who only took young girls on
0:49:10 > 0:49:14if they were very, very sweet to them.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16Things like that. And I have to say,
0:49:16 > 0:49:21that kind of thing I immediately just would have nothing to do with.
0:49:21 > 0:49:27Not out of an idea that... in a moral sense,
0:49:27 > 0:49:30just because... No! SHE LAUGHS
0:49:30 > 0:49:33Looking at the roles you played in theatre -
0:49:33 > 0:49:36new plays such as Humble Boy by Charlotte Jones,
0:49:36 > 0:49:39Vortex by Noel Coward, a revival -
0:49:39 > 0:49:41have you generally just waited to see what you were offered,
0:49:41 > 0:49:43or do you go out and seek roles?
0:49:43 > 0:49:49I usually wait and see, and I think the plays that excite me,
0:49:49 > 0:49:53like Humble Boy, it is writing, it's new writing,
0:49:53 > 0:49:56which is odd, because I was told, "Do the old stuff."
0:49:56 > 0:50:00I have been asked now and again if I can think of something to do
0:50:00 > 0:50:02and I really invariably can't.
0:50:02 > 0:50:06I can think of 100 wonderful parts to play, 100 wonderful plays to be in,
0:50:06 > 0:50:09but I've never got the courage ever to be one of those people to say,
0:50:09 > 0:50:12"Let's put this on, I'll be good in this, I'll make you money back."
0:50:12 > 0:50:17There are certain types of roles that have recurred.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20You've played a lot of drunks and a significant number of male roles,
0:50:20 > 0:50:23so you played the principle boy, as it were, in On The Razzle,
0:50:23 > 0:50:27and then Simon Gray, or one of the Simon Grays, in The Last Cigarette,
0:50:27 > 0:50:30his final play he wrote with Hugh Whitemore.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33So we can talk about why that is. Why so many drunks?
0:50:33 > 0:50:35You liked playing those?
0:50:35 > 0:50:37I don't know. I just...
0:50:37 > 0:50:41It isn't it's so many drunks, quite so many drunks.
0:50:41 > 0:50:45In Amy's View, I got her drunker than I think she should have been,
0:50:45 > 0:50:47because I like doing it.
0:50:47 > 0:50:51And I'm reasonably good at it.
0:50:51 > 0:50:56It's quite a challenge to be pissed but not completely drunk.
0:50:58 > 0:51:00And it's just something I enjoy doing.
0:51:00 > 0:51:04Also it means you can drink all the way through the evening,
0:51:04 > 0:51:07which is awfully nice on a hot summer's evening in the theatre,
0:51:07 > 0:51:12to know you can go and pour another gin and tonic that's water, and go like that.
0:51:12 > 0:51:16I don't know, it's very physically liberating as well, to be drunk,
0:51:16 > 0:51:20and maybe I just know what it feels like. SHE LAUGHS
0:51:20 > 0:51:22And playing the male roles -
0:51:22 > 0:51:26you've got an unusually deep voice for a woman.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28- Have I?- You've got that register.
0:51:28 > 0:51:32- I can go...- It goes deeper than most women.- Yes.
0:51:32 > 0:51:36Well, I grew up playing boys, didn't I? So I suppose it's also that.
0:51:36 > 0:51:41I'm very comfortable being a man, that's how I started,
0:51:41 > 0:51:46with Puck and all those Balthazars.
0:51:46 > 0:51:49Oh, my goodness, yes, exactly.
0:51:49 > 0:51:53When the reviews of Shakespeare Wallah came out, we might have thought
0:51:53 > 0:51:58that you would have a more significant cinematic career than you have.
0:51:58 > 0:52:00Have you regretted that?
0:52:00 > 0:52:02Yes, in that I'm greedy.
0:52:02 > 0:52:07If I have something I really do think I could have curbed by now...
0:52:07 > 0:52:12I always want more of everything that's going.
0:52:12 > 0:52:18And I suppose now I wish I'd had more of a career in films,
0:52:18 > 0:52:21but then I go back to what I said earlier on -
0:52:21 > 0:52:24it's that one thing leads to another,
0:52:24 > 0:52:30and I very definitely chose to always choose theatre or a play
0:52:30 > 0:52:35against something maybe more lucrative or further afield.
0:52:35 > 0:52:39I always chose not to go to Broadway, which...for all sorts of reasons,
0:52:39 > 0:52:41usually do with a child.
0:52:41 > 0:52:43One could say it was a mistake now,
0:52:43 > 0:52:50but it was my choice, and I had the time with the children.
0:52:50 > 0:52:56So I can't say now honestly I don't, but on the other hand,
0:52:56 > 0:53:01I wouldn't have had, which I have had, the line of new plays,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03one after another after another,
0:53:03 > 0:53:07with these wonderful, wonderful modern writers,
0:53:07 > 0:53:12which I think in itself cancels out any regret.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14Strictly Come Dancing -
0:53:14 > 0:53:17some people remain snobbish about these TV talent shows.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20Did you have any qualms about accepting?
0:53:20 > 0:53:24Well, I'm a bit of a groupie. I love that show, anyway.
0:53:24 > 0:53:29For me, I don't see that as a reality show in the same way,
0:53:29 > 0:53:33because the things that I think are slightly insulting
0:53:33 > 0:53:36is making a tit of yourself, you know, in public,
0:53:36 > 0:53:41or putting yourself up to be made to look an idiot or a fool.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44And that, I think, is degrading,
0:53:44 > 0:53:47and, you know, don't take the money, don't do it.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50So you're talking about things such as Celebrity Wife Swap, and...
0:53:50 > 0:53:53- Yes, things like that.- ..I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here.
0:53:53 > 0:53:58Where potentially you're going to fail looking like a complete prat.
0:53:58 > 0:54:03You know, the worst of your nature is going to be shown to a lot of people that don't know you,
0:54:03 > 0:54:08and your family may be very embarrassed, but that's the possibility.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12The thing about Strictly that's different is you're learning a craft,
0:54:12 > 0:54:17you're learning something with professional people,
0:54:17 > 0:54:21not just people filming you, but professional teachers.
0:54:21 > 0:54:25So that was something that I immediately wanted to do when they offered it.
0:54:25 > 0:54:29A lot of people said, "Are you insane?"
0:54:29 > 0:54:32I didn't regret a minute of it.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35I loved it.
0:54:35 > 0:54:37And you get so fit!
0:54:37 > 0:54:39BOTH LAUGH
0:54:44 > 0:54:47White Cargo, which you wrote while your father was dying,
0:54:47 > 0:54:49it only takes your life up to the late '70s.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52Will you ever write the other half of the memoir?
0:54:54 > 0:54:56SHE SIGHS
0:54:56 > 0:55:00Do you know, probably not. Because I don't think it's that interesting.
0:55:00 > 0:55:05It's boring to me to write it down, because I've done it already,
0:55:05 > 0:55:08so why do I want to write it down and bore everybody else?
0:55:08 > 0:55:12- But they want the relationships, don't they?- Yes, exactly.
0:55:12 > 0:55:16I always said no, because it's not interesting to me to write about relationships,
0:55:16 > 0:55:20because I'm interested in the one I'm in now.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23But then what happened was my father died,
0:55:23 > 0:55:27and various things to do with the history of India,
0:55:27 > 0:55:32and the extraordinary life that I lived as a young woman, young child
0:55:32 > 0:55:35learning to act on the stage, in Shakespeare in India...
0:55:35 > 0:55:38I thought what he did was interesting, and he was dying,
0:55:38 > 0:55:42so I wrote White Cargo for him.
0:55:42 > 0:55:47It was actually an autobiography but it was about his bringing me
0:55:47 > 0:55:51into the world of the theatre. It was not about my relationships.
0:55:51 > 0:55:56Very impertinent question, have you had or would you have cosmetic help?
0:55:56 > 0:55:59I think it's too late.
0:55:59 > 0:56:02I think if I was in films, I think there is absolutely no question.
0:56:02 > 0:56:06I don't think you have a choice. It's the same way as you do with teeth.
0:56:06 > 0:56:10You can't... I mean, you either do it or you stop working.
0:56:10 > 0:56:15But I think if you're an actress in the theatre,
0:56:15 > 0:56:18I think it's probably a mistake.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20So, no.
0:56:20 > 0:56:22- You never have and you never would? - No.
0:56:22 > 0:56:28No, I think because my career relies on me playing parts
0:56:28 > 0:56:31that I'm the right age for,
0:56:31 > 0:56:35so why would I try and have a bit of me that looked younger?
0:56:35 > 0:56:40Unless you could start at the bottom and lift, which you can, of course -
0:56:40 > 0:56:43but then you don't look like anybody - and lift everything up,
0:56:43 > 0:56:44it never would match.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47Few people like getting older, but you're in a profession
0:56:47 > 0:56:50where there is this very cruel gaze, particularly at women,
0:56:50 > 0:56:54looking for signs of ageing, counting wrinkles and so on.
0:56:54 > 0:57:00- Do you inevitably become neurotic about it as an actress? - I think you do.
0:57:00 > 0:57:01I think you do as a woman.
0:57:01 > 0:57:06I think the female thing is, "Oh, gosh, here we go,
0:57:06 > 0:57:10"this ten years, now I am here."
0:57:10 > 0:57:14But I think when I was 50,
0:57:14 > 0:57:16I was less happy to be 50.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21Now I'm...52... MARK LAUGHS
0:57:21 > 0:57:23..I'm very happy to be here,
0:57:23 > 0:57:29because I'm sort of, in a sense, I'm a very good version of it.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32Touch wood. Where's the wood? MARK LAUGHS
0:57:32 > 0:57:36I'm very fit for my age,
0:57:36 > 0:57:40and you do get very... you get quite brave about things.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43Things don't worry you in the same way.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46And I also, I think...
0:57:46 > 0:57:48Another thing about regretting being in films,
0:57:48 > 0:57:53I think if you're in films, it must be horrendous,
0:57:53 > 0:57:55because you really do have a sell-by date,
0:57:55 > 0:57:57and otherwise you are playing grannies,
0:57:57 > 0:58:01and only grannies, because of the number of lines you've got on your face.
0:58:01 > 0:58:06So that must be very hard to take, because you still want to work,
0:58:06 > 0:58:08and you can only work in a restricted way.
0:58:08 > 0:58:10But I think in the theatre that doesn't happen.
0:58:10 > 0:58:15So I think, you know, I flick on The Good Life
0:58:15 > 0:58:19and I think, "My goodness, that's a very a smooth little face."
0:58:19 > 0:58:21But then I also think "You haven't had the experience I've had,
0:58:21 > 0:58:24"and you haven't done all the wonderful things I've done,
0:58:24 > 0:58:27"and you're not as brave as I am now, so..."
0:58:27 > 0:58:31- Felicity Kendal, thank you very much.- Thank you.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd