0:00:25 > 0:00:29The life and career of Frank Skinner can be summarised in angles of the body.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32His twenties were the fall down years.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36An alcoholic who was, by his own confession, throwing his life away,
0:00:36 > 0:00:39he stopped drinking at the age of 30.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41This decision led to the stand up years,
0:00:41 > 0:00:44winning the Perrier Award for comedy at Edinburgh in 1991
0:00:44 > 0:00:47and, subsequently, a sit down career
0:00:47 > 0:00:50as, first, chat show host and then panel game chair.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53There's also been a fair amount of lying down.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58His autobiographical books describe hundreds of one-night stands in his single days,
0:00:58 > 0:01:02but also kneeling - he's a church going Roman Catholic.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10More than decade ago in a book, you described yourself as a nondescript bloke
0:01:10 > 0:01:13from a working class family in West Bromwich who got lucky.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Do you stick by that?
0:01:15 > 0:01:20Erm, I stick by the fact that I got lucky in order to get my foot in the door,
0:01:20 > 0:01:22but I have worked very hard to keep it there.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26For a long time, the biggest gap I'm aware of
0:01:26 > 0:01:30between your comedy persona and your real life,
0:01:30 > 0:01:35there were whole sides... people saw you as this football-supporting lad
0:01:35 > 0:01:40and yet you were, in reality, non-drinking, church-going, interested in culture.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42I don't think I did keep it out.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45I used to talk about it in interviews and then it never appeared
0:01:45 > 0:01:50so I think people liked the idea of a nice, neat edit
0:01:50 > 0:01:56of a...sort of, a working-class Jack the lad comedian,
0:01:56 > 0:02:00but I didn't really attempt to keep it quiet.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04In fact, I used to get resentful when it didn't make the interview
0:02:04 > 0:02:10because I used to think, in my chippy, working-class days, when I first left Birmingham,
0:02:10 > 0:02:13that people didn't like the university element
0:02:13 > 0:02:16because it didn't fit in with working-classness,
0:02:16 > 0:02:19which I was a bit resentful about, but I've mellowed on that one.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23And the question of luck, it also involves bad luck.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28Your loss of some of your millions, if not all of your millions, erm, at one point,
0:02:28 > 0:02:32in interviews I've seen, print interviews, you were quite calm about that
0:02:32 > 0:02:35but that must have been pretty devastating.
0:02:35 > 0:02:40I read in the paper that AIG was in trouble during that big crash thing
0:02:40 > 0:02:47and I knew that that's where, erm, my personal banker had advised me to put all my money.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50I thought, perhaps I'll phone him about this.
0:02:50 > 0:02:55No calls were being returned, no e-mails were being answered
0:02:55 > 0:03:00and, eventually, I got through and said, "I think I should take some of my money out of AIG."
0:03:00 > 0:03:03He said, "Yeah, a lot of people think that."
0:03:03 > 0:03:05I thought, "That's not very good."
0:03:05 > 0:03:09We had this very difficult meeting with him looking like a broken man,
0:03:09 > 0:03:12whereas that should have been my role.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15And him saying that the whole thing had been frozen
0:03:15 > 0:03:18and I might have lost my life savings or...
0:03:20 > 0:03:24..the good news is, I might just have lost 50% of it.
0:03:24 > 0:03:30- And we're talking millions here. - Erm...just about, yeah.
0:03:31 > 0:03:38Yeah. So it was, I mean, when I first heard about it, I thought all that work I did has gone.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42I'd had a meeting with him about a year before when he said,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45"If you never work again, you're financially secure",
0:03:45 > 0:03:49which was a brilliant, exciting, exhilarating thing to hear.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51So that had gone
0:03:51 > 0:03:54but I think that might have been a good thing.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57I think it reinvigorated me.
0:03:57 > 0:04:01Also, it was nice to hear my girlfriend say, "We can always move to a smaller place",
0:04:01 > 0:04:02rather than, "Goodbye."
0:04:02 > 0:04:09So, erm, I think everybody should lose an enormous amount of money at some time in their lives,
0:04:09 > 0:04:11just to...as a reality check.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15Some people in those circumstances, there are cases, they get suicidal,
0:04:15 > 0:04:19- they get despairing, but did you ever?- No.
0:04:19 > 0:04:25I just thought, I'll earn some more money and I used to have no money.
0:04:25 > 0:04:30I was...looking back now, I was surprised by how well I took it
0:04:30 > 0:04:33because if you'd asked me to speculate on how that would be,
0:04:33 > 0:04:38I'd have thought, it'll destroy me, but it was fine.
0:04:38 > 0:04:43Although, when I heard it had happened, I thought of something you'd written in the autobiography.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47You say, "I was a loser for the first 30 years of my life and I still think like a loser."
0:04:47 > 0:04:50But does that remain the case?
0:04:50 > 0:04:56I think I still have a slight hesitation when I walk into a smart restaurant.
0:04:56 > 0:05:01And if I'm with someone, I'll often let them go in first.
0:05:01 > 0:05:02Yeah, I just...
0:05:02 > 0:05:06I said also that I move like a loser.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09I think all that is inbuilt.
0:05:09 > 0:05:15I was used to being a ghost figure who got ignored a lot, I think,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18except when I was turning on the comedy with my mates.
0:05:18 > 0:05:25I struggled terribly to get girlfriends in my pre-celebrity days.
0:05:25 > 0:05:31And I was a nondescript bloke from the West Midlands and quite happy being so, really.
0:05:31 > 0:05:32But, erm...
0:05:35 > 0:05:40..I suppose...I don't know. I guess I'd had a long time being...
0:05:40 > 0:05:45just a man in the street, but I didn't think I was gonna go back to the man in the street.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48I was still working so I just thought I'd start again, basically.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52But that fear, there are people when we were growing up watching TV,
0:05:52 > 0:05:58huge TV stars who now can't get a role in panto at Christmas, it does happen.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Have you thought about that?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Erm, yeah, I've thought about it,
0:06:03 > 0:06:09but this year will be the 25th anniversary of my first gig
0:06:09 > 0:06:15and if someone had said to me, "You can have 25 years as a professional comic",
0:06:15 > 0:06:18I would have snatched their hand off, so I think I've done all right.
0:06:18 > 0:06:23I think I'm already well into stoppage time.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28I wondered, reading On The Road, your book about the stand up tour
0:06:28 > 0:06:32where, at a certain point, there's a different girl after every gig.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37Is it possible...do you believe in sex addiction? Is that possible.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40I don't believe in sex addiction. I think that's men with opportunities.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43I...no, erm...
0:06:43 > 0:06:48I think I was just making up for lost time, really.
0:06:48 > 0:06:53I suddenly, erm, my attractive light came on
0:06:53 > 0:06:58and I didn't have to work very hard to get female company.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02So, erm, I just, I got it and I went for it,
0:07:02 > 0:07:08which, I'd imagine, most average to ugly blokes do when they first find celebrity.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12Erm, I tried to be decent and honourable about it,
0:07:12 > 0:07:14and honest.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16I used to give this little speech about,
0:07:16 > 0:07:20"You do realise this is a one-night stand? This is not going anywhere."
0:07:20 > 0:07:25Which I figured was my little disclaimer at the beginning.
0:07:25 > 0:07:30But, erm, it was...it was part of the experience, I suppose.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34I thought it was, you know, as showbiz
0:07:34 > 0:07:38as going to premieres and being interviewed.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41And the ones you've written,
0:07:41 > 0:07:44the sexual encounters you've written about in that book.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48We can refer to some of them - Banana Girl, Lemon Curd Girl and the others -
0:07:48 > 0:07:51people will have to read the book to find out the full details,
0:07:51 > 0:07:56but have any of them ever contacted you subsequently and said, "I'm the one in that book"?
0:07:56 > 0:07:57Erm...
0:07:58 > 0:08:04..there's been...I was doing a book signing at Cheltenham Literature Festival
0:08:04 > 0:08:08and there was a queue of people, happily,
0:08:08 > 0:08:13and a woman said to me, "I don't know if you remember me. We had a one-night stand in 1997."
0:08:13 > 0:08:17I said, "Oh, of course(!) How are you?"
0:08:17 > 0:08:22People are very casual about it. She was with her partner as well at the time.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25- And did you have any memory of her? - No.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28No, no. But...
0:08:28 > 0:08:31she seemed very nice. I thought I'd done quite well for myself.
0:08:31 > 0:08:39But I used to also bump into people and say, "My mate had a one-night stand with you. God, what a laugh?"
0:08:39 > 0:08:44And I realised that I was using it as material.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48That wasn't my motivation but it often ended up in the act.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50It ended up in their act as well, really.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52When they were sitting with their friends,
0:08:52 > 0:08:56they'd have the 'My One-Night Stand with Frank Skinner' story.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01So I think part of the purpose of casual sex is anecdote production.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04In interviews of this kind we tend to talk about childhood quite a lot
0:09:04 > 0:09:08but it's difficult in your case because your autobiography,
0:09:08 > 0:09:13you kept saying, "I hate all that childhood stuff. I read them and I just say, hurry up and get famous."
0:09:13 > 0:09:17So you go for minimal childhood reflection.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22I think the cool and trendy way to write about childhood in recent years is,
0:09:22 > 0:09:26you really need a bit of abuse at home.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31You need some terrible childhood that you can cash in on the mis-lit front.
0:09:31 > 0:09:37Whereas my childhood was, erm, as far as I can remember, very happy
0:09:37 > 0:09:40and very funny.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43I remember laughing a lot and having a good time.
0:09:43 > 0:09:49So, erm...it feels commercially the wrong kind of childhood
0:09:49 > 0:09:51but it did all right.
0:09:51 > 0:09:56I'm always interested with people who've become famous under a pseudonym
0:09:56 > 0:09:58to what extent the original remains.
0:09:58 > 0:10:03So, Christopher Graham Collins, is he still there or are you entirely Frank Skinner now?
0:10:03 > 0:10:06I think of myself as Frank Skinner.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08When I was Christopher Graham Collins,
0:10:08 > 0:10:11at school I was known as Chris and at home I was known as Graham
0:10:11 > 0:10:15because there's a tradition in our family that kids were known by their second names,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18which I've never quite got to the bottom of.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21People would come to my house and say, "Is Chris in?",
0:10:21 > 0:10:24and my mum would say, "Yeah." "Graham!"
0:10:24 > 0:10:27So, the name thing, they were interchangeable.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30And I quite like... I chose Frank Skinner.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34It was a friend of my dad's and I just liked the name.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37I think there's something quite good about choosing your own name.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42I think it should be quite normal when you get into your teens to pick a new name.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45And the choice of the name, it is an amazing story.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49- You'd never met Frank Skinner. - No, I'd never met him.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53I knew him on a tiny piece of cardboard about that big.
0:10:53 > 0:10:58Erm, my dad had a tobacco tin, which I've still got,
0:10:58 > 0:11:02and he took it out and it had all the names of the people in his dominoes team.
0:11:02 > 0:11:09He used to...he captained the dominoes team for the George pub in Warley, the West Midlands,
0:11:09 > 0:11:11and he used to pick them.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14And, I don't know, it just had the right,
0:11:14 > 0:11:21that kind of...that pleasant feel of consonants on the lips.
0:11:21 > 0:11:26And I used to say to him, "Is Frank Skinner playing this week?"
0:11:26 > 0:11:32It was a...it became a little character in my universe, even though I never met him.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36So, when I joined the showbiz union, Equity,
0:11:36 > 0:11:41in those days, if there was already someone with your name, you had to come up with a new name.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43So that was my... actually, my second choice.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46My first choice was Wes Bromwich,
0:11:46 > 0:11:49which...things could have been very different.
0:11:50 > 0:11:55So on gas bills, passports, driving licences, you're Frank Skinner, are you?
0:11:55 > 0:11:59No, I'm...I'm usually Chris Collins.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02I've got credit cards in both names.
0:12:02 > 0:12:08It can be confusing on planes because often on planes people will recognise me
0:12:08 > 0:12:13and then look at the passport and it seems to be another name and they get suspicious.
0:12:13 > 0:12:18But you don't get that many celebrity terrorists. It's a minimalist group.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22Things that your dad gave you... particular inheritances -
0:12:22 > 0:12:26West Bromwich FC, performing, to some extent, and drinking.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28He did bits of all of those.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Yeah, my dad was, erm...
0:12:33 > 0:12:35..I suppose you'd call him a colourful character.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38He loved sport.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42I have very happy memories of sitting up with him in the early hours of the morning.
0:12:42 > 0:12:48When I was quite small he'd allow me to listen to Cassius Clay and then Muhammad Ali
0:12:48 > 0:12:50boxing on the radio.
0:12:50 > 0:12:55They used to have... the fights used to be live on the radio in those days.
0:12:55 > 0:13:00He'd come and knock on my bedroom door and say, "C'mon, let's go down", and we'd listen to the fights.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04And my dad threw every punch. He used to, he used to...
0:13:04 > 0:13:06You couldn't sit too close.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09But I remember that was fabulous.
0:13:09 > 0:13:13So in your break through stand up gig, 1992,
0:13:13 > 0:13:17you came out as a boxer. Was that connected with that?
0:13:17 > 0:13:23I think that was probably... there's a tragic thing that stand up comedians do, erm...
0:13:23 > 0:13:28we all like a bit of self dramatising and you'll often hear comedians
0:13:28 > 0:13:33comparing themselves to boxers or matadors or something like that.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37In fact, it's slightly less dangerous than that, generally speaking.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39But I think that was the analogy.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52So my dad gave me a love of sport.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54He sang all the time.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57He sang in the pub, he sang around the house.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59He used to have, erm...
0:14:00 > 0:14:07..my mum and dad, basically, their default form of communication was argument.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10That was how they really got on.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14And I think they were together for 50-odd years
0:14:14 > 0:14:20and seemed a very strong unit, but they did argue every day. A lot.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24But they had this terribly touching thing that they would say at the end of rows.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26First of all, he used to sing to her.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30They'd have a big row and he'd say, "Yes, but what about this...
0:14:30 > 0:14:33# If I had my life to live... #
0:14:33 > 0:14:38and he'd sing some old romantic song with her sitting like this.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42But he always used to say to my mum, post row,
0:14:42 > 0:14:47"There's one thing I want. If you die on the Monday, I want to die on the Tuesday."
0:14:47 > 0:14:51That was his post row catchphrase,
0:14:51 > 0:14:57which is quite a big grenade to throw into an argument.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00Arguments can dribble on for days
0:15:00 > 0:15:03and I wouldn't say my mum and dad ever came out of the argument,
0:15:03 > 0:15:08it ebbed and it flowed like a mighty ocean, their ongoing argument.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12And they'd bring in strands and themes as they went along.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14But, erm...
0:15:14 > 0:15:18I don't think there's many men who would throw in something
0:15:18 > 0:15:23that gives so much of themselves at the point of a row.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26Looking back, that was pretty remarkable, I think.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28The argument, that's quite interesting,
0:15:28 > 0:15:32because you've used that, or inherited it, because in a lot of the work,
0:15:32 > 0:15:38in the stand up, fantasy football, the columns, Frank Skinner's Opinionated,
0:15:38 > 0:15:42erm, you often sustain an argument. Often quite a provocative one.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Well, I wrote, erm,
0:15:45 > 0:15:52I wrote four fifteen-minute comedies for Radio 4 called Don't Start.
0:15:52 > 0:15:58All it is is me as one of a couple and every show is an argument.
0:15:58 > 0:16:03And that's partly, I think, because my dad argued with my mum a lot
0:16:03 > 0:16:05but, also,
0:16:05 > 0:16:09every relationship I've been in, there's been lots of arguments.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13Erm, me and my current girlfriend, we've been...
0:16:13 > 0:16:16Current is probably not the word I'm after.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19- Me and my girlfriend, Kath... - Your final girlfriend.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24Yes. The culmination of my girlfriends, Kath,
0:16:24 > 0:16:29me and my girlfriend have been together for eleven years with breaks
0:16:29 > 0:16:33and we used to argue every day.
0:16:33 > 0:16:38I mean big time, blazing, horrible rows.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40And, erm...
0:16:40 > 0:16:42she can't listen to this Radio 4 thing.
0:16:42 > 0:16:48She said, "I can hear that tone in your voice - that argument tone."
0:16:48 > 0:16:54But I suppose most of my work is autobiographical
0:16:54 > 0:16:56so I like to chuck it all in.
0:16:56 > 0:16:59I thought, I argue a lot so I might as well use that.
0:16:59 > 0:17:04'If you're saying, do we have an obligation to share the contents of our dreams?
0:17:04 > 0:17:07'I'd say, definitely not.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10'You're not seriously writing that down?
0:17:10 > 0:17:14- 'It's quite an insight, isn't it? - Into what?- Your disgusting dreams.
0:17:14 > 0:17:19- 'You're the one who said you were loathe to share your dream because it might cause friction between us.- Yes.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24'Well, I assumed, you know...
0:17:25 > 0:17:27- 'You thought I'd cheated on you? - Only in the dream.'
0:17:27 > 0:17:32A therapist would make a lot of this. Have you ever been in therapy?
0:17:32 > 0:17:36I did couple counselling with my girlfriend.
0:17:36 > 0:17:40- The current girlfriend? - Yes. My girlfriend.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43And...which I loved, actually.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47I'd never really done that kind of thing before.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51But, erm, it's actually quite interesting.
0:17:51 > 0:17:56It's like going into a really good seminar, but it's about you.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00So it's kind of got everything. But we have, erm...
0:18:01 > 0:18:07..our couple counsellor is a very intelligent German man,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10which is what I want from an analyst, you know what I mean?
0:18:10 > 0:18:13I want them to be German and intellectual.
0:18:13 > 0:18:18And he quotes lots of papers, psychological papers,
0:18:18 > 0:18:20and it's actually fascinating.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23But I also think it was brilliant.
0:18:23 > 0:18:29I think it really did turn our relationship around after years and years of fighting.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33We just came up with a few practical ways of defusing it.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36So I certainly wouldn't knock that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40I've always been worried about therapy
0:18:40 > 0:18:46because a friend of mine, Denis Leary, who is an American comic and actor,
0:18:46 > 0:18:49when he started doing movies, he went to LA
0:18:49 > 0:18:52and he was talking about how everyone had got a therapist.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55He said, "You must never have anything of that kind
0:18:55 > 0:19:01"because the thing about comedians is we're wired a certain odd way
0:19:01 > 0:19:05"and that makes us see the world differently from everyone else.
0:19:05 > 0:19:10"If you let someone in there and they correct your wiring, you'll never be funny again."
0:19:10 > 0:19:16But I do...it made me think, when I considered this advice,
0:19:16 > 0:19:22that if it was a standard choice between being...
0:19:22 > 0:19:25happy or funny,
0:19:25 > 0:19:27I'd probably choose funny.
0:19:27 > 0:19:32In that connection, you whizz through your twenties in your autobiography.
0:19:32 > 0:19:36They pass in a blur. But that's because they did...
0:19:36 > 0:19:37Exactly.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41..to a large extent. Drink, drink, dole, despair, basically.
0:19:41 > 0:19:46Yes. Well, erm...I don't know if I despaired much.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51I've always been very fortunate that I have a, kind of...
0:19:51 > 0:19:53a buoyancy about me.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55I never...
0:19:55 > 0:19:58I never stay down for very long.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02It is a cork-like buoyancy.
0:20:02 > 0:20:08But I did drink a lot and I drank for, I suppose it was 13 or 14,
0:20:08 > 0:20:12maybe 15 years, I drank a lot.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16- And by the end, you had a bottle of Pernod on the bedside table. - Yeah.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20I always say that I realised, this is true, that I had a drinking problem
0:20:20 > 0:20:27when I switched from sherry for breakfast to Pernod for breakfast.
0:20:27 > 0:20:33And it took me a while telling that to realise that sherry for breakfast
0:20:33 > 0:20:36could have been a hint as well.
0:20:36 > 0:20:42But that seemed fine. Pernod seemed like I was in trouble.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46But I used to drink in order to do things which is apparently one of the bad signs.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50Apparently, I was going to join the library once and I thought,
0:20:50 > 0:20:55I can't just walk into a library stone cold sober and say I want to join.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57I'll have to have a few drinks.
0:20:57 > 0:21:02So, I went and had about four or five pints before I could go and do it.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05That's not very good really.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09There have been hints during the lost decade about where you were going to end up
0:21:09 > 0:21:12because you went to a teacher's training college
0:21:12 > 0:21:17and then did an English degree and a bit of performing and writing there.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22When I was at Birmingham Polytechnic, I wrote a...
0:21:22 > 0:21:26There was a DH Lawrence week
0:21:26 > 0:21:30and I wrote a thing called Sadie Chatterley's Lodger.
0:21:30 > 0:21:36We'd been studying Lawrence and there was a lot of in jokes about Lawrence.
0:21:36 > 0:21:41I started off with the ukulele song, I couldn't even play ukulele then.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43I must have worked out three chords.
0:21:43 > 0:21:49And here's a song I love to hum about a lad from Nottinghom.
0:21:49 > 0:21:54A good boy only loves his mum David Herbert Lawrence.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58And, erm, it's funny how I can remember the words to it.
0:21:58 > 0:22:03It went on about nude men wrestling by the fire.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08Temperatures get higher and higher, It certainly made me perspire, David Herbert Lawrence.
0:22:08 > 0:22:14So, I wrote a whole play in which DH Lawrence
0:22:14 > 0:22:20was the lodger of a woman called Sadie Chatterley.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23It was pretty crass stuff.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27Approaching 30 is a key moment for you
0:22:27 > 0:22:33because you take up Catholicism and give up drinking.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37In a lot of people, drinking is linked to religion.
0:22:37 > 0:22:42Famously in the 12 steps programme, they are told,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45put your faith in a higher power and so on.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47Were they linked for you, those two things?
0:22:47 > 0:22:50There were a few things going on.
0:22:50 > 0:22:56When I became 30, or when I was about to become 30,
0:22:56 > 0:23:02I was unemployed, drinking a lot. One of my best friend's girlfriends said to me,
0:23:02 > 0:23:06what is it like to be 30 and on the scrapheap?
0:23:06 > 0:23:13I'd started going to church very much in a sit at the back, not really take part kind of way.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16I just had an urge to be there.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20I also I was thinking about doing comedy.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24So, all these things were coming around at the same time.
0:23:24 > 0:23:30I didn't think that I could get all these things done if I didn't stop drinking.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33But, I'd made a few attempts to stop
0:23:33 > 0:23:37and it never really happened so I'd kind of given up on it.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40In the end, like so many achievements in life,
0:23:40 > 0:23:42it just sort of happened accidentally.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46I got the flu, I couldn't keep anything down.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49I realised that I'd been ill for three days and I hadn't had a drink.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53I thought, I haven't gone three days without a drink for...
0:23:53 > 0:23:56I can't remember the last time. I wonder if I can do four?
0:23:56 > 0:23:59And, I'm still basically doing that.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03I've done 25 years, I wonder if I can do 26 years?
0:24:03 > 0:24:07It's all about that house of cards.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10The sobriety house of cards which is why I always think
0:24:10 > 0:24:16if I have a drink now, I can't have just one, I'll carry on drinking.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21I think the bravest passage in your autobiography, you admit,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25vision is not strictly the right word because you were asleep.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29- You had a dream of God. - Yeah.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31I don't know if there is anything in this
0:24:31 > 0:24:38but I had a dream that I was at the bottom of a quarry.
0:24:38 > 0:24:44A figure appeared and I was at a sense of searching for God.
0:24:44 > 0:24:48This is when I was thinking about going back to Catholicism.
0:24:48 > 0:24:54This figure looked like Abraham Lincoln but he had very bad teeth.
0:24:54 > 0:25:00He stood on the edge and he said, "I am already here."
0:25:00 > 0:25:05And, of course, that's almost certainly just a dream.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09But the "I'm already here" was quite a significant thing
0:25:09 > 0:25:14because I felt I was really trying to find some answers.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17I'd read all these books about Catholicism
0:25:17 > 0:25:22thinking I would be very happy to prove it one way or the other.
0:25:22 > 0:25:28Because, I left when I was 17 so that would've been 13 years without it.
0:25:28 > 0:25:32But I was really trying hard.
0:25:32 > 0:25:38This voice seemed to say, "You don't have to. I'm here."
0:25:38 > 0:25:41So, I kind of chilled about the whole thing
0:25:41 > 0:25:46and then I went and saw Father Stibbles at St Mary's.
0:25:46 > 0:25:52I remember, he said to me because I'd talked to him about all this, he said, "God, come back, come back."
0:25:52 > 0:25:57And I said, "Yeah but I'm not sure." He said, forget that, just come back.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00I started talking to him about my life
0:26:00 > 0:26:02and how I'd been living in the last 10 years or so.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05And he goes, "I absolve thee in the name of the father."
0:26:05 > 0:26:10And I thought, you have tricked me into a confession.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13But I thought, oh well, that's it, I am back now.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16So, the next morning the Feast of St Boniface,
0:26:16 > 0:26:20I went to church midweek and there were about five people there.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24I took communion and I was home.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27Your rise to being a stand-up comic
0:26:27 > 0:26:31happened pretty quickly eventually, the success.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34But it seems to be a self confident act.
0:26:34 > 0:26:38You booked a slot at the Edinburgh Festival before you actually had an act.
0:26:38 > 0:26:43Yeah, I booked an hour slot before I had been on stage at all.
0:26:43 > 0:26:48I tried to book an hour and a half and the guy said to me "Really, an hour is plenty."
0:26:48 > 0:26:53And I did toy with the idea that I wouldn't do any gigs before
0:26:53 > 0:26:58I'd just write some stuff and turn up and do it on the day.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01Was this self-confidence or delusion? I suppose they are the same thing.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03It was a mix of the two.
0:27:03 > 0:27:08I knew that when I was with my mates in the pub, I could get really big laughs.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13I could hold court for an hour easily.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17I mean really get people falling about laughing. I thought it would just be like that.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20But, of course, it isn't.
0:27:20 > 0:27:24It is a bit more difficult than that.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27I thought I would just be the way I was in the pub.
0:27:27 > 0:27:33And, I got up on the stage and I was incorrect.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36You reveal in your book a technical term in comedy,
0:27:36 > 0:27:41- "To die on your arse" is what happened at your first warm-up gig. - Yes.
0:27:41 > 0:27:46The first gig I did was awful and I thought it can't get any worse than this
0:27:46 > 0:27:48and then the second one did.
0:27:48 > 0:27:53The second one was New Year's Eve at the Birmingham Anglers Association Club.
0:27:53 > 0:27:59I started off getting booed off and then they discovered
0:27:59 > 0:28:04that little goodie bags included these tiny trumpets,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08so they started blowing those.
0:28:08 > 0:28:12I was still determined that this could still be turned around.
0:28:12 > 0:28:18I looked into the wings and there was the man who was operating then as my manager,
0:28:18 > 0:28:24the DJ and the owner of the club, all going...
0:28:24 > 0:28:31At the next one, I'll get them. But I never did crack it.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35You used in the book a couple of times, what is actually a very Catholic word, vocation.
0:28:35 > 0:28:39You say that when you got going as a stand up
0:28:39 > 0:28:45you felt you found your vocation. Do you think of it in that way?
0:28:45 > 0:28:52It was a massive turning point in my life becoming a comic.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54I can't tell you.
0:28:54 > 0:28:59I had just drifted along, I had no idea what I wanted to do really.
0:28:59 > 0:29:04I didn't feel I was naturally gifted at anything.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07And I started doing gigs
0:29:07 > 0:29:12when I started working and I started getting big laughs, God I loved it.
0:29:12 > 0:29:16I remember driving back from Birmingham,
0:29:16 > 0:29:19in the early hours after doing gigs in London
0:29:19 > 0:29:25and punching the ceiling in elation because I loved it.
0:29:27 > 0:29:31I wasn't thinking, I'm going to be on telly,
0:29:31 > 0:29:36I was just thinking that just being able to get up in a club
0:29:36 > 0:29:42and doing 20 minutes and leave the stage to massive applause.
0:29:42 > 0:29:48To love it and for people to love me and for me to love them,
0:29:48 > 0:29:50I am gushing a bit now.
0:29:50 > 0:29:58But it was a complete and utter turn in life and is still, you know.
0:29:58 > 0:30:02I look back on it now and I don't know what would've happened to me if I hadn't become a comic.
0:30:02 > 0:30:08She said to me, "You can take the piss out of me, Frank." "We've got a machine for that Mum."
0:30:08 > 0:30:14She said, "Never mind that, you can take the piss out of me but you'll find that as you get older,
0:30:14 > 0:30:19you can judge how good a film is by the amount of tissues you get through while you are watching it."
0:30:19 > 0:30:22LAUGHTER
0:30:24 > 0:30:27No need for a punchline there I don't think.
0:30:27 > 0:30:33There's also a particular recognition that there's a certain laugh you get
0:30:33 > 0:30:38when you say this happened to you, the comedian, and people respond to that.
0:30:38 > 0:30:44You do, because laughter becomes so important to you,
0:30:44 > 0:30:49you develop an ear for different kinds of laughs.
0:30:49 > 0:30:56When I started to make big, I'd say my signature laugh was, "Oh, ho, ho."
0:30:56 > 0:31:01When people can't quite believe you said that but it was funny.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04And then you get some laughs when you'd hear it go up and octave
0:31:04 > 0:31:10and you realise that was the one the women were finding funnier than the blokes.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14And then there's the ones that are often a bit footbally rude
0:31:14 > 0:31:17where you can hear a chorus of Sid James'.
0:31:17 > 0:31:25I even found that when I toured in Ireland, the difference between Belfast and Dublin.
0:31:25 > 0:31:27You could hear in Dublin -
0:31:27 > 0:31:29HIGH PITCH LAUGHTER
0:31:29 > 0:31:31And in Belfast -
0:31:31 > 0:31:34LOW PITCH LAUGHTER
0:31:34 > 0:31:36So, you do get to hear all that.
0:31:36 > 0:31:41But I had a keen sense of what I would call my volume.
0:31:41 > 0:31:47So, I know there's a line in my head and it needs to be that loud.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51If I do a joke, and it doesn't make that loud, I might do it again.
0:31:51 > 0:31:54But if it's not making that loud, it's got to go.
0:31:54 > 0:32:01And after you won the Perrier Award, that 1992 gig,
0:32:01 > 0:32:08lots of sex in the act, anal, oral, was that a policy decision?
0:32:08 > 0:32:12No, I suppose the truth is that I'd made people laugh
0:32:12 > 0:32:17talking about sex, at school, in the factory, in the pub.
0:32:17 > 0:32:22So, that was my first port of call. It wasn't a policy.
0:32:22 > 0:32:27There were other stuff as well, but whenever I did other stuff,
0:32:27 > 0:32:31it never got the big laughs that the sex stuff got.
0:32:31 > 0:32:35It's interesting as I've gone on as a comic,
0:32:35 > 0:32:41I don't do as much rude stuff as I used to.
0:32:41 > 0:32:47I can sense the audience pining for it.
0:32:47 > 0:32:53Your comedy changes like everything else in you changes.
0:32:53 > 0:32:58I think the stand up I want to be nowadays
0:32:58 > 0:33:03is not necessarily the stand-up that the audience want me to be.
0:33:03 > 0:33:07On that point, when I talk to comedians, they often talk about the line.
0:33:07 > 0:33:14They say "I won't do jokes about disability, I want to do jokes about women."
0:33:14 > 0:33:16Do you have a line?
0:33:16 > 0:33:23I have a line that I won't do a joke that I feel uncomfortable with.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27But I do resent the fact that people
0:33:27 > 0:33:31see the topic heading and think, this is going to be offensive.
0:33:31 > 0:33:35I think it's about the treatment not the topic.
0:33:35 > 0:33:41I do think it's important that you should be able to talk about difficult subjects.
0:33:41 > 0:33:48And what you say should matter, not what you're talking about.
0:33:48 > 0:33:54For example, I was in the Birmingham Oratory
0:33:54 > 0:33:59and the Birmingham Oratory is a very busy Catholic Church in Birmingham
0:33:59 > 0:34:06and there were two Down Syndrome men in the congregation.
0:34:06 > 0:34:11And at one point, one was coming back down the aisle
0:34:11 > 0:34:15and the other one was going up the aisle and they passed each other.
0:34:15 > 0:34:22And I felt really disappointed that there was no acknowledgement between them, no nod.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25It reminded me that I used to drive a Volkswagen beetle
0:34:25 > 0:34:30and if you passed another Volkswagen Beetle in the street you'd blast your horn and wave.
0:34:30 > 0:34:35That was what I was looking for. Some sort of, we know, don't we?
0:34:35 > 0:34:39I found that funny, looking back on it.
0:34:39 > 0:34:43I think a lot of people, as soon as you say the word Down's Syndrome...
0:34:43 > 0:34:48- Have you done that joke? - I have tried it on stage once.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51Once I said the Beetle thing,
0:34:51 > 0:34:56they relaxed a bit but they weren't sure.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59I think you have to go through that barrier.
0:34:59 > 0:35:03You have to reassure them that you are not going to say anything.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06They need to trust me that I'm not going to do
0:35:06 > 0:35:08an anti-Down syndrome joke,
0:35:08 > 0:35:10but I can talk about Down syndrome,
0:35:10 > 0:35:16I should be able to talk about paedophiles or terrorism.
0:35:16 > 0:35:21And as long as what I'm saying
0:35:21 > 0:35:25is not anti-people,
0:35:25 > 0:35:28or it's not supporting something bad,
0:35:28 > 0:35:33if we don't discuss those things that's a real worry, I think.
0:35:33 > 0:35:38Another thing which your position has changed through the career
0:35:38 > 0:35:41is swearing, at one point you foreswore swearing,
0:35:41 > 0:35:43if such a thing can be done.
0:35:44 > 0:35:50I was on tour and I was on about show 50,
0:35:50 > 0:35:55and by then you've learnt the set
0:35:55 > 0:35:57and the set has grown
0:35:57 > 0:36:00because what happens is you go on tour with a set
0:36:00 > 0:36:02and one night you'll improvise some stuff on it
0:36:02 > 0:36:05and you think, "Oh, I hadn't thought of that before",
0:36:05 > 0:36:07and so it organically grows
0:36:07 > 0:36:11but eventually, probably about gig 50,
0:36:11 > 0:36:17you feel, "I think I have shone my torch into every labyrinth
0:36:17 > 0:36:20"that this particular routine can go,
0:36:20 > 0:36:23"so now it's it is done, it is complete."
0:36:23 > 0:36:26And then it becomes an acting job,
0:36:26 > 0:36:30then it's like doing a play, and I'm not a trained actor
0:36:30 > 0:36:35and on nights like that sometimes you can start doing your material
0:36:35 > 0:36:39and you can feel it disappearing over the horizon,
0:36:39 > 0:36:42and there is a phenomena when you can hear a voice doing your material
0:36:42 > 0:36:45and you realise it's you, you've become separated.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48So you need to come up with things keeping it fresh
0:36:48 > 0:36:50and I just thought, what would happen
0:36:50 > 0:36:54if I took all the swearing out one night?
0:36:54 > 0:36:57So I did it as an experiment, just to freshen it up,
0:36:57 > 0:37:00and it was interesting because in a lot of the places,
0:37:00 > 0:37:03my delicate ear for the volume of a gag,
0:37:03 > 0:37:05it didn't make any difference,
0:37:05 > 0:37:07but there was a few places,
0:37:07 > 0:37:11there was about four or five places in the act where it did,
0:37:11 > 0:37:14the removing of the swear word definitely did.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17So I thought, "OK, well, the next night
0:37:17 > 0:37:20"I'll just put it back in those key places,
0:37:20 > 0:37:22"those four or five places, and leave the rest out."
0:37:22 > 0:37:24And what I found then
0:37:24 > 0:37:28was those gags had gone bigger than they were before
0:37:28 > 0:37:31because I hadn't given them any ramp of swearing,
0:37:31 > 0:37:35so suddenly out of nowhere there was a big swear word
0:37:35 > 0:37:39in exactly where the big swear word should be.
0:37:39 > 0:37:44And so I got myself five extra big laughs
0:37:44 > 0:37:46without losing anything from the rest of the set,
0:37:46 > 0:37:51so it was a purely technical exercise.
0:37:51 > 0:37:57But then, I was selling some product like a DVD or something
0:37:57 > 0:38:00and my manager said, "What you should do,
0:38:00 > 0:38:03"there's been a lot of stuff about swearing on telly,
0:38:03 > 0:38:05"you should tell that story."
0:38:05 > 0:38:07So I wrote it up for the Sunday Times,
0:38:07 > 0:38:09just really to publicise the thing,
0:38:09 > 0:38:13but then it was like I was on a moral crusade to stop swearing,
0:38:13 > 0:38:17and actually I love swearing, I think swearing is brilliant
0:38:17 > 0:38:22and it's completely returned in a casual way into my act.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27And I really didn't want to be, you know, I did a Panorama about it,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31and when you meet the people who are anti-swearing,
0:38:31 > 0:38:34you think, "Well, this is one club I do not want to be a member of!"
0:38:34 > 0:38:36Because I think swearing is brilliant,
0:38:36 > 0:38:38if it's good enough for Chaucer, etcetera.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41'And he's backed by some newspapers
0:38:41 > 0:38:44'who feel views which until recently seemed outdated
0:38:44 > 0:38:48'are actually held by a great many people.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51'These papers feel broadcasters are ignoring those views
0:38:51 > 0:38:54'and encouraging a decline in standards.'
0:38:54 > 0:38:58A lot of old mainstream comedians would have sat and told dirty jokes
0:38:58 > 0:39:00and sworn in the dressing room, but not on stage.
0:39:00 > 0:39:02Yes, but that's a decline...
0:39:02 > 0:39:04- Isn't it a move towards honesty? - Not at all.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08It's a decline of culture because it shows a lack of respect for others.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10Ten years of Fantasy Football from 1994,
0:39:10 > 0:39:13with David Baddiel, your double act,
0:39:13 > 0:39:15complicated things, double acts,
0:39:15 > 0:39:18they often end up only communicating through lawyers and so on,
0:39:18 > 0:39:22I never saw any obvious signs of tension, but were there?
0:39:23 > 0:39:26The only big row I only ever had with David Baddiel
0:39:26 > 0:39:30was about Trivial Pursuit, I remember,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33when it was about which Hollywood film
0:39:33 > 0:39:37had lost blah blah million pounds, and he said Anthony and Cleopatra,
0:39:37 > 0:39:40I said, "No, it's Cleopatra." And he said, "Well, it's the same thing."
0:39:40 > 0:39:43And I said, "Well, it's a pie question."
0:39:43 > 0:39:47And he actually, I mean, physically stormed out.
0:39:47 > 0:39:55But apart from that he is, David Baddiel is like a brother to me,
0:39:55 > 0:40:00you know, I love him and I think that was great
0:40:00 > 0:40:04that we worked together as well,
0:40:04 > 0:40:07so we shared lots of really special stuff.
0:40:07 > 0:40:13But when I first met David and moved in with him, and stuff,
0:40:13 > 0:40:15he was kind of a heroic figure
0:40:15 > 0:40:18and really a big influence on me, I think.
0:40:18 > 0:40:22When I think about that change of living in Birmingham
0:40:22 > 0:40:24and then living in London
0:40:24 > 0:40:31I think of David as representing that, a sort of a wider universe.
0:40:31 > 0:40:35He always used to go on about original thought,
0:40:35 > 0:40:39that was his big thing, you know, people just rattled off cliches,
0:40:39 > 0:40:41it's all about having original thinking
0:40:41 > 0:40:44and having new stuff to say, which I'd never really...
0:40:44 > 0:40:48I guess I kind of knew that somewhere but I'd never verbalised it.
0:40:48 > 0:40:53And there was lots of stuff like that which was completely eye-opening
0:40:53 > 0:40:55and life changing for me.
0:40:55 > 0:40:59And Fantasy Football, it was a fantasy for both of you.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02You were never a good footballer, I don't know if David was,
0:41:02 > 0:41:07and yet you ended up in the heart of the football establishment?
0:41:07 > 0:41:09Yeah, it really was,
0:41:09 > 0:41:13it was like the competition winners' approach to football
0:41:13 > 0:41:18because we, we used to sit at home on our sofa,
0:41:18 > 0:41:21we were living together at the time
0:41:21 > 0:41:24and we'd watch football on the telly and we'd make jokes about it,
0:41:24 > 0:41:29I mean, that was a large chunk of our home life.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32And then suddenly someone was paying us to do that on telly
0:41:32 > 0:41:35and really we only had to sharpen it up a bit,
0:41:35 > 0:41:38it was just like editing what happens at home.
0:41:38 > 0:41:43So, yeah, it was such a dream job, meeting footballers,
0:41:43 > 0:41:47who you used to watch when you were a kid
0:41:47 > 0:41:50and all that kind of stuff, it was top notch.
0:41:50 > 0:41:57Hello! Hello and welcome to Fantasy Football League.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00This week we recreate one of the Republic of Ireland's
0:42:00 > 0:42:01greatest World Cup moments.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04And we'll be saying a big hello to Ron Yeats.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06Hello, I'm Ron Yeats.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09ALL: Hello!
0:42:09 > 0:42:11Good old Ron!
0:42:11 > 0:42:14But first, a few things we noticed from watching football this week.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17Eric Cantona got a bit annoyed when he found a till receipt
0:42:17 > 0:42:19for Andy Cole's transfer.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23And the other thing which is actually quite spooky,
0:42:23 > 0:42:26that the first record you bought was Back Home
0:42:26 > 0:42:28which was the World Cup single
0:42:28 > 0:42:32and yours wasn't World Cup, it was the European Championship,
0:42:32 > 0:42:37but you actually got to do a number one single yourself, which is,
0:42:37 > 0:42:39I mean, beyond spooky, really?
0:42:39 > 0:42:44Yeah, well, people often, if you sort of get famous,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47and achieve something, people often do these,
0:42:47 > 0:42:50"Who would have thought that kid who blah blah...?"
0:42:50 > 0:42:53But that's probably the biggest "Who'd have thought?"
0:42:53 > 0:42:55Who'd have thought that kid who bought Back Home
0:42:55 > 0:42:59would then bring out an England World Cup single.
0:42:59 > 0:43:04Yeah, it was brilliant and that's the thing about when you're a comic
0:43:04 > 0:43:06and doing well as a comic,
0:43:06 > 0:43:10there are peripheries, things start coming up,
0:43:10 > 0:43:12and at the time that was still new,
0:43:12 > 0:43:14now I've tried to do less periphery
0:43:14 > 0:43:17and tried to concentrate on being a comic more,
0:43:17 > 0:43:19but then, that was such a treat, you know,
0:43:19 > 0:43:22coming to the England football song!
0:43:22 > 0:43:25And just, you know, me and Dave sitting
0:43:25 > 0:43:29writing the lyrics and all that, and being in the recording studio,
0:43:29 > 0:43:32being on Top Of The Pops
0:43:32 > 0:43:37all those, you know I suppose I've got a kind of a showbiz check list
0:43:37 > 0:43:39where you, you know, you do Test Match Special
0:43:39 > 0:43:41and you do Desert Island Discs
0:43:41 > 0:43:45and you do Panorama and Question Time
0:43:45 > 0:43:47and often I'll say, I'll often say yes to things
0:43:47 > 0:43:50because I think, "Oh, that'll be good on my checklist."
0:43:50 > 0:43:52This, for example.
0:43:52 > 0:43:57So doing the official England football song
0:43:57 > 0:43:59wouldn't have even made my checklist,
0:43:59 > 0:44:03it was so outrageous, and then,
0:44:03 > 0:44:04so we'd done the song,
0:44:04 > 0:44:07and it got to number one, which they often did.
0:44:07 > 0:44:11I remember I was in San Francisco the week it came out
0:44:11 > 0:44:14and I walked into my hotel room with my girlfriend at the time,
0:44:14 > 0:44:18there were flowers which I thought were from the hotel,
0:44:18 > 0:44:20but then I saw a card,
0:44:20 > 0:44:22this is very much my manager, it said,
0:44:22 > 0:44:25"Single straight in at number one,
0:44:25 > 0:44:30"56,000 units sold."
0:44:30 > 0:44:32The least romantic announcement ever.
0:44:32 > 0:44:35But that was it, it was number one.
0:44:35 > 0:44:39But when people say this thing "I bet you never dreamed..."
0:44:39 > 0:44:44I usually have dreamed, because I am quite a big time daydreamer
0:44:45 > 0:44:48and every project I get involved in
0:44:48 > 0:44:52I do dream of the awards and all that kind of stuff,
0:44:52 > 0:44:56I always imagine it's going to be an enormous smash,
0:44:56 > 0:44:59you know, like world shattering,
0:44:59 > 0:45:03consequently my life is a series of disappointment!
0:45:03 > 0:45:04Nevertheless.
0:45:04 > 0:45:09I did think it would get to number one and do well
0:45:09 > 0:45:11but I didn't think the fans would sing it
0:45:11 > 0:45:16because the fans never sing the official single,
0:45:16 > 0:45:17they just didn't do that.
0:45:17 > 0:45:21The fans never sang "Back Home", it just didn't happen.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25But we played Scotland in Euro '96
0:45:25 > 0:45:29and at the end of the game,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32the hand shaking and shirt swapping went on
0:45:32 > 0:45:35and the DJ at Wembley put on this song
0:45:35 > 0:45:37and I thought, "Oh, that's great."
0:45:37 > 0:45:40And the crowd just started absolutely singing along with it
0:45:40 > 0:45:43and after that, every game was the crowd singing it,
0:45:43 > 0:45:48it became a proper terrace chant, and I didn't see that coming.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50And as I discuss it now,
0:45:50 > 0:45:53I can feel a slight tingling around the face, it's brilliant.
0:45:53 > 0:45:57# Three lions on a shirt
0:45:57 > 0:45:59# Jules Rimet still gleaming
0:46:00 > 0:46:05# Thirty years of hurt
0:46:05 > 0:46:08# Never stopping dreaming... #
0:46:11 > 0:46:15'England have done it! In the last minute of extra time!'
0:46:15 > 0:46:19'What a save! Gordon Banks!'
0:46:19 > 0:46:25'Good old England! England have got it in the bag!'
0:46:25 > 0:46:29# I know that was then But it could be again... #
0:46:29 > 0:46:33You entered what was a fairly standard route which was,
0:46:33 > 0:46:37and still is, from comedian to chat show host,
0:46:37 > 0:46:40it was a television trend,
0:46:40 > 0:46:43were you happy as a talk show host?
0:46:44 > 0:46:49Sometimes it was, I mean, I did something like nine series
0:46:49 > 0:46:55of that chat show, and there were times when I thought it was great.
0:46:55 > 0:46:57There is a problem with a comedian,
0:46:57 > 0:47:00and I think no matter how good you are
0:47:00 > 0:47:04when you first sit down with that person from the TV company
0:47:04 > 0:47:09you're both thinking, "How do we put you on telly?
0:47:09 > 0:47:10"What's your vehicle?
0:47:10 > 0:47:15"What do we do with you to make you as funny on telly as you are live?"
0:47:15 > 0:47:18And it's something that people still struggle with,
0:47:18 > 0:47:20I see people, they're going to be on telly,
0:47:20 > 0:47:22and I say to someone, "Oh, I've seen this guy
0:47:22 > 0:47:24"he's really, really funny",
0:47:24 > 0:47:26and they just don't work,
0:47:26 > 0:47:29and I think it's why people have given in and said,
0:47:29 > 0:47:31"Well, let's just put stand-up on television
0:47:31 > 0:47:34"because it's so hard to think of the right vehicle."
0:47:36 > 0:47:40A chat show, as you say, is sort of an obvious thing,
0:47:40 > 0:47:45you know, in America, the chat show hosts are often comics.
0:47:45 > 0:47:49So I went through a bit of a curve with it,
0:47:49 > 0:47:53the first couple of series I did
0:47:53 > 0:47:57I really wanted to be the star of the show,
0:47:57 > 0:48:00that's what I thought, and I treated my guests
0:48:00 > 0:48:02like they were very elaborate hecklers,
0:48:02 > 0:48:09but I didn't really want to listen to them, I wanted to listen to me
0:48:09 > 0:48:12and I figured that's why people were tuning in.
0:48:12 > 0:48:15And then I realised that one needed a balance,
0:48:15 > 0:48:17that it was quite awkward
0:48:17 > 0:48:22to watch someone not getting a word in, in the course of an interview,
0:48:22 > 0:48:25and then I think I did start to get interested
0:48:25 > 0:48:28in the art of interviewing
0:48:28 > 0:48:32and sometimes that worked really well,
0:48:32 > 0:48:35but of course, as you know, sometimes you interview people
0:48:35 > 0:48:38that basically are rubbish, and then you have to start
0:48:38 > 0:48:41filling in the gaps that they leave.
0:48:41 > 0:48:44But I did... I started to care more about the balance
0:48:44 > 0:48:46and I don't know if that's good for a comic.
0:48:46 > 0:48:50I was talking to a comedian recently who'd been offered a chat show
0:48:50 > 0:48:52and I said you have to be careful
0:48:52 > 0:48:58because you do have to give some of yourself away,
0:48:58 > 0:49:00you do have to...
0:49:00 > 0:49:04There's this thing that I think John the Baptist says,
0:49:04 > 0:49:06"Now I will shrink as he grows."
0:49:06 > 0:49:08Speaking of Jesus.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10And you have to shrink to let your guests grow
0:49:10 > 0:49:14and that doesn't come very naturally for a comedian,
0:49:14 > 0:49:17I don't know even if it's good for a comedian.
0:49:17 > 0:49:19So I liked it,
0:49:19 > 0:49:24I liked it from about series three
0:49:24 > 0:49:27to about series seven
0:49:27 > 0:49:31and then I got a bit bored with it towards the end.
0:49:31 > 0:49:35I would love to give you a taste of me playing air guitar to Layla.
0:49:35 > 0:49:37- Is that all right?- Yeah!
0:49:37 > 0:49:39- I don't want you to be offended! - I'd love to see that.
0:49:39 > 0:49:41When I play a guitar, I'm really elaborate.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44Cos I do that thing, like, I do the volume and stuff.
0:49:46 > 0:49:50Occasionally, honestly, I'll hit the wah-wah!
0:49:50 > 0:49:53And little signals to the roadies. I'll say stuff, like...
0:49:54 > 0:49:56Anyway, let's hear it.
0:49:57 > 0:50:02MUSIC: "Layla" by Derek and the Dominoes.
0:50:06 > 0:50:10And there'd been a move from the BBC to ITV which led to you becoming
0:50:10 > 0:50:13the greediest man in Britain, you were known as...
0:50:13 > 0:50:15Well, the world, actually.
0:50:15 > 0:50:19The Greediest Person in the World was the official title in the Mirror.
0:50:19 > 0:50:27I was... I was at number one and Imelda Marcos was at number four,
0:50:27 > 0:50:29so it was... Yeah, all agendas were covered.
0:50:29 > 0:50:35The allegation was that your agents, Avalon, had asked for 20 million
0:50:35 > 0:50:37for you to stay at the BBC.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40Do you think that demand was actually made?
0:50:40 > 0:50:46Do you know something? I have never asked my manager directly
0:50:46 > 0:50:51whether he asked for 20 million quid or not.
0:50:51 > 0:50:53You must want to know, don't you?
0:50:53 > 0:50:58In a way, I don't. You know, I think managers are often doing
0:50:58 > 0:51:03the stuff I don't want to do. They do my dirty work, you know,
0:51:03 > 0:51:08and one uses them... There's a feeling that acts are exploited,
0:51:08 > 0:51:12but often, you have a manager so you can be a nice guy
0:51:12 > 0:51:15and they can do the stuff you don't want to do.
0:51:15 > 0:51:21I've said to him, "Look I don't... the money is your department."
0:51:21 > 0:51:26I, for example, I have...
0:51:26 > 0:51:32I've had a couple of shows on telly in recent times.
0:51:32 > 0:51:37I don't know what I'm paid for them, I never ask that question.
0:51:37 > 0:51:42I just assume he'll get me the best money he can get me.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46But it must go into your account, minus his 15% or whatever?
0:51:46 > 0:51:50Yeah, but it comes in a lump with other stuff. I don't sit and...
0:51:50 > 0:51:53I mean, one could argue, I suppose,
0:51:53 > 0:51:57that I am ripe for exploitation in that thing.
0:51:57 > 0:51:59But if you stop trusting your manager
0:51:59 > 0:52:03you have to get rid of him, I think, so at the moment I trust him.
0:52:03 > 0:52:07But I'm not... it's not why I'm doing it, that's his job.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09I'll make it as funny as I can make it
0:52:09 > 0:52:14and he can make it as rewarding, financially, as he can make it
0:52:14 > 0:52:16and that's a good combo.
0:52:16 > 0:52:19There's a strange phenomenon recently. A lot of people,
0:52:19 > 0:52:21knowing I was interviewing you, said the same thing -
0:52:21 > 0:52:24"Ooh, a few years ago I really hated him
0:52:24 > 0:52:27"and now I think he's great, I really like him."
0:52:27 > 0:52:32So something did happen, didn't it? There was a backlash and a recovery?
0:52:32 > 0:52:36Yeah I was... I was at a festival
0:52:36 > 0:52:39and we asked for questions from the audience and a woman said,
0:52:39 > 0:52:43"I used to hate you and now I love you, did you change or did I?"
0:52:46 > 0:52:49I don't know what happened. I... I...
0:52:49 > 0:52:53I wasn't aware of doing anything that differently.
0:52:53 > 0:52:58I just... I've always tried to be as much me as I can.
0:52:58 > 0:53:03Maybe the me has changed, and I've just got older and stuff like that.
0:53:03 > 0:53:06Maybe... I've...
0:53:06 > 0:53:09I don't like the idea that I've mellowed,
0:53:09 > 0:53:12because that almost sounds like a bad thing.
0:53:12 > 0:53:17I suppose what I think is that I was always the person they liked,
0:53:17 > 0:53:18they just didn't know it.
0:53:18 > 0:53:26I also think maybe I am less laddish. I just got...
0:53:26 > 0:53:31I think you always have to be looking for new things to be funny about,
0:53:31 > 0:53:35and I just thought, "What about this half of my brain?"
0:53:35 > 0:53:37"Why don't I just chuck everything
0:53:37 > 0:53:39"and not worry about whether people get it or not?"
0:53:39 > 0:53:42Google has been a great liberator for me,
0:53:42 > 0:53:45because now I can talk about stuff on the radio...
0:53:45 > 0:53:49like I did some... We were talking about curtseying,
0:53:49 > 0:53:52whether one curtseys in front of the Queen,
0:53:52 > 0:53:58and that took me eventually on to JM Coetzee, the South African novelist, and his wife...
0:53:58 > 0:54:02I recreated a big argument between him and his wife at home.
0:54:04 > 0:54:07And at the end of it I said, "If you know him, Google him."
0:54:07 > 0:54:13And I think that is... It's a nice bit of freedom now, for a comic,
0:54:13 > 0:54:17that they can go and find out what the hell I was talking about,
0:54:17 > 0:54:19and laugh retrospectively.
0:54:19 > 0:54:24A life changing event, becoming a father at the age of 55 or so.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28Do you have an image of the kind of dad you want to be?
0:54:28 > 0:54:29Erm...
0:54:32 > 0:54:37Yeah, I'd like to be the kind of dad you could talk to about anything.
0:54:37 > 0:54:42That's why I wouldn't mind him reading my books or watching my DVDs,
0:54:42 > 0:54:44because I don't know if I...
0:54:44 > 0:54:46As much as I love my parents,
0:54:46 > 0:54:50I don't know that I really let them into my life.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53I don't know that I ever really talked about girlfriends
0:54:53 > 0:54:56or what was going on like that, I kept that all quiet.
0:54:56 > 0:54:59I think it's a brilliant thing
0:54:59 > 0:55:01if your parent can be a bit like your mate as well.
0:55:01 > 0:55:06So yeah, I'd like to think that I can be like a mate.
0:55:06 > 0:55:10Obviously sometimes, you've got to lay the law down,
0:55:10 > 0:55:13but you also want to be able to be close and familiar...
0:55:13 > 0:55:17I guess player-manager, that's the role I'm after!
0:55:19 > 0:55:22And does that... The thought, 15 years on,
0:55:22 > 0:55:25when you're trying to instil discipline in your child,
0:55:25 > 0:55:28that they'll buy on Amazon - or whatever exists then -
0:55:28 > 0:55:33a 1p copy of your memoirs, and say, "Dad, you did all this stuff."
0:55:33 > 0:55:38Well, when I wrote the book, part of the reason - the autobiography -
0:55:38 > 0:55:41was I thought it would be nice for future generations
0:55:41 > 0:55:43to know what I was like.
0:55:43 > 0:55:45You actually say that in the book.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48You say, we'll save a lot of time if your kids ask, "What do you do?"
0:55:48 > 0:55:50And, erm...
0:55:51 > 0:55:55I've always endeavoured to be, erm...
0:55:55 > 0:55:59what Henry Fielding said of Tom Jones, a good natured man.
0:55:59 > 0:56:02Even the sleeping around and stuff.
0:56:02 > 0:56:07So, erm... I think if he is influenced by that,
0:56:07 > 0:56:10I... I don't think I'd be too... distressed.
0:56:10 > 0:56:13I don't know. I don't know what parenthood will be like.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15It might just be wholly terrifying.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17Finally, we talked about,
0:56:17 > 0:56:22people don't get to choose how their careers pan out in showbiz,
0:56:22 > 0:56:24but there's that Bruce Forsyth model
0:56:24 > 0:56:28where he's been... He's had ups and downs but there he is,
0:56:28 > 0:56:32still at the top in his early 80s. Is that what you would ideally like?
0:56:34 > 0:56:35Well, I...
0:56:36 > 0:56:42People used to say that it was a very tragic end for Tommy Cooper, for example.
0:56:42 > 0:56:46Because he died on TV... Well, live, as it were, on TV?
0:56:46 > 0:56:49Yeah, but he is getting laughs as he died
0:56:49 > 0:56:51because people thought he was messing about,
0:56:51 > 0:56:54so the last thing he heard was people laughing.
0:56:54 > 0:56:58I... That doesn't seem so bad to me.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02I don't have any intention, at the moment, of ever retiring.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05Or indeed dying on TV?
0:57:05 > 0:57:09Well, no, I've died on TV many times, you get over it!
0:57:09 > 0:57:13I mean I love watching... I can't imagine Strictly without Bruce,
0:57:13 > 0:57:16it's like a Grand Prix without an accident -
0:57:16 > 0:57:18there'd be no point in watching it.
0:57:18 > 0:57:22I want to do it forever, is the way I feel at the moment.
0:57:22 > 0:57:26it's a brilliant job and it's one of the few jobs
0:57:26 > 0:57:30where people don't mind you getting old in it.
0:57:30 > 0:57:37Musicians, as unjust as it may be - when you see the Rolling Stones
0:57:37 > 0:57:41you kind of think, "Do it at home, just do it at home, that's fine.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43"You don't have to come out and do it in public."
0:57:43 > 0:57:45I don't think people mind that.
0:57:45 > 0:57:48George Burns, Bob Hope, all those old British... Bruce Forsyth.
0:57:48 > 0:57:51People are OK with old comics,
0:57:51 > 0:57:56so I like the idea of being one of those really old guys doing it.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58That would be brilliant.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00Frank Skinner, thank you.
0:58:00 > 0:58:01Thank you.