0:00:02 > 0:00:09This programme contains very strong language.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29They started in very different places.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33Gilbert Proesch growing up in Italy, George Passmore in Plymouth.
0:00:33 > 0:00:39But after meeting in London in 1967, they became personally and professionally inseparable,
0:00:39 > 0:00:42their surnames forgotten, as Gilbert and George.
0:00:42 > 0:00:47Artistically recognised with the Turner Prize in 1986, they also have
0:00:47 > 0:00:52unusual public recognition, through art that frequently uses their own images,
0:00:52 > 0:00:56as living, singing sculptures, or in pictures, meticulously suited or naked.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00But because their work features words - and turds,
0:01:00 > 0:01:04among other bodily substances - that some consider taboo,
0:01:04 > 0:01:09they have also, by their opponents, been called names other than Gilbert and George.
0:01:09 > 0:01:16Their latest show, The Urethra Postcard Art, featuring sex cards from phoneboxes,
0:01:16 > 0:01:22shaped in a twist on genital geometry, will continue the reactions of both fans and detractors.
0:01:22 > 0:01:28Is it an equal partnership always, or is one of you the dominant figure?
0:01:28 > 0:01:31We would say it's very equal in a modern way.
0:01:31 > 0:01:36- Yes.- I think I would say we are both able to do different things
0:01:36 > 0:01:38in an extraordinary way.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40And together, we make a whole.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43I think one is more able towards that
0:01:43 > 0:01:46and the other towards the other, but together, we create a total idea.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49As we always say, it's two people but one artist.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52That's the key to it, the secret, really.
0:01:52 > 0:01:58Have you ever had serious arguments, first of all professionally, in the case of the art?
0:01:58 > 0:02:03Because as you know, many, many people who write together or who perform together,
0:02:03 > 0:02:07they end up not speaking. But have you ever had a serious disagreement?
0:02:07 > 0:02:11We say that we don't argue, and we wouldn't tell you if we did!
0:02:11 > 0:02:19But we don't argue. No, we're very conscious of the pain and hostility and fighting in the world.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23We think that is... every day, we think of that, that human suffering is so great,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26that why should we become part of that?
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Why should we fight or argue?
0:02:28 > 0:02:33Alone, we would be lost. So we don't want to destroy that.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37Being one removes self doubt in both of our cases, which is very powerful.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Extremely powerful. It's a great strength, being two.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43That's why most of the world is divided into twos.
0:02:43 > 0:02:49- It's perfectly normal. - And not only that, it created for us a world that we don't need anybody.
0:02:49 > 0:02:56We don't need friends, we don't need cities, we don't need to go anywhere to be happier.
0:02:56 > 0:03:01But together, alone, we are able to think in a very interesting way.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04We think we're enormously privileged that we can go to our studio
0:03:04 > 0:03:08in the morning, and say exactly what we want in our pictures.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11Nobody can interfere. We don't have to ask anybody or refer to anybody.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15That's an extraordinary privilege, very few people have that freedom.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20And the other privilege is to be able to take those pictures out, into the world,
0:03:20 > 0:03:23to thousands of people in London, or in Madrid or New York.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25It's extraordinary.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29We're very proud of having made a path that's able do that.
0:03:29 > 0:03:34The parallels that people have often used, one is a comedy double act,
0:03:34 > 0:03:38which is obvious, going back to The Singing Sculptures, you can see why.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40Another one is a marriage, a married couple.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43We just think Gilbert and George the artist, really.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45It's much clearer then.
0:03:45 > 0:03:50Expressing our new feelings on the walls, to create a new sculpture.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54Who cares about marriages or whatever? Nothing.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58Being normal and being weird at the same time, that's what we always want.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00Never just the one.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03How is the tea, Gilbert?
0:04:03 > 0:04:05It's very nice.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07Would you like some cake?
0:04:07 > 0:04:09Thank you. Yes.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13- Would you like some cheese?- Yes.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16I would like very much a piece of Leicester.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Here you are.
0:04:18 > 0:04:19Thank you, George.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24How do you feel, Gilbert?
0:04:24 > 0:04:26I feel relaxed.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28After the long walk.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30How do you feel?
0:04:30 > 0:04:32I feel fine, thank you.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35Rather brainy and relaxed.
0:04:35 > 0:04:40You may not want to answer - it has been said that you are married, which would be possible, but are you?
0:04:40 > 0:04:43We did have a civil partnership recently, yes,
0:04:43 > 0:04:49but for more practical purposes rather than as an imitation straight marriage, yes.
0:04:49 > 0:04:54- Practical purposes, presumably, financial and practical and so on. - Yes.- When I look at you now,
0:04:54 > 0:04:59today, for this interview, you have suits of similar design, but different colours,
0:04:59 > 0:05:07ties of similar design, but different colours, similar shoes, is all of that carefully planned in advance?
0:05:07 > 0:05:10We just want to devote ourselves to art.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13We're all dragged at increasing speed towards the grave.
0:05:13 > 0:05:19Any picture we don't make will be not made by somebody else, so we don't need to go shopping.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21We don't have to cook.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25Everything's based on having a very similar life, including the tailoring.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28We don't have to change style every three years, like the boys in the city.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31We don't have to have pegged trousers and big shoulders.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35It's always the same style and very simple.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38The shirts we buy every three years, they're always white.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41Ties, we only wear the ones that we're given as presents.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44It's a very, very simple life, devoted to art.
0:05:44 > 0:05:51But it started out as Sunday best. When we used to go to see galleries,
0:05:51 > 0:05:53to try to promote ourself at the beginning,
0:05:53 > 0:05:58we had what you call the Sunday best and we kept to that, and it became
0:05:58 > 0:06:03like the uniform for a monk, or the uniform of all the politicians.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07They all have, in some way, the same kind of suit on.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11OK, not all the artists have a suit on, but more and more artists have suits now.
0:06:11 > 0:06:15We always said that it's like if you go for a job interview,
0:06:15 > 0:06:20or if you go to a funeral, you put on a suit, and we come from that sort of background.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24We even said early on that we wanted to be the artist that the mother wouldn't be ashamed of.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27Didn't work out exactly like that, but...
0:06:27 > 0:06:33Well, we'll talk about that later, about some of the content which would actually worry some mothers.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36- They're versions in pairs, though? - Yes, they are versions in pairs.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39Yes. It's a myth created by the media that we have identical suits.
0:06:39 > 0:06:45If we had identical suits, one of us would be very ill-fitting, wouldn't they?
0:06:45 > 0:06:48- Quite true.- It is a kind of uniform. It is. Yes.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52"The responsibility suits of our art," I think we wrote in 1969.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56Does that ever become a burden that you can't nip out for a pint of milk
0:06:56 > 0:06:59wearing tracksuit trousers and a sweatshirt?
0:06:59 > 0:07:01Why should we do that? That would be...
0:07:01 > 0:07:05- Mad.- Mad. It's very good. It's very simple and very anonymous.
0:07:05 > 0:07:09You can travel anywhere in the world, Australia, Johannesburg, New York.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13Everyone wears suits. It's completely normal. Every Prime Minister in the world.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16We never want to change that. It's fantastic.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18You're never searched at airports.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22You can always get a table in a restaurant. It's extraordinary.
0:07:22 > 0:07:29It never becomes a burden, that 40 years ago, in effect, you set the rules in the laws of sculptures?
0:07:29 > 0:07:33No, works so well. Even a young lady friend of ours took her mother
0:07:33 > 0:07:37to the Tate Modern exhibition with the hope of disturbing or upsetting or...
0:07:37 > 0:07:41and on leaving the exhibition, the mother said, "I'm not quite sure
0:07:41 > 0:07:46"of all of their pictures, dear, but they do dress so nicely." So you see, we got away with it.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50Getting away with it, that's very important.
0:07:50 > 0:07:56We never wanted to be the scruffy artist, anyway. The so-called conventional artist.
0:07:56 > 0:08:03Do people generally know which one is which, or are you addressed randomly as Gilbert, George?
0:08:03 > 0:08:06I think amongst our friends and colleagues, they will know, yes.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09But we don't care about that so much.
0:08:09 > 0:08:14It's very funny, because a lot of people believe that Gilbert is a more English name than George,
0:08:14 > 0:08:18and that's why when we go to Germany and other places, they always think
0:08:18 > 0:08:21George must be the German or the Italian one.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24It's extraordinary. It's a sort of tribal thing. They say,
0:08:24 > 0:08:27"It's a vonderful exhibition, and we're especially proud of you, Georg!"
0:08:27 > 0:08:31Extraordinary. And I say, "Sank you so much."
0:08:31 > 0:08:33It's very good.
0:08:34 > 0:08:40This is another of the legends, that you go to the same place each day to eat, but is that literally true?
0:08:40 > 0:08:45Yes. We go to the same restaurant every evening, when we're not entertaining,
0:08:45 > 0:08:50and we have the same meal, month in, month out, until we decide to change it.
0:08:50 > 0:08:55Then we'll change it and that will be the same meal every evening until we change our minds again.
0:08:55 > 0:09:02We don't like the idea of reading menus or thinking about food, it seems rather a waste of brain to us.
0:09:02 > 0:09:08So the whole life from the suits, to the restaurant, it's all about leaving time for the work?
0:09:08 > 0:09:10To free up the brain.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14To use the brain in a special way. Not to be cluttered.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17To be free people that can think whatever they want.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22We trained ourselves to clear the head, the most extraordinary thing that you can have -
0:09:22 > 0:09:27it feels like a big desert in front, panning out like that, which we can do something with.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30What's your favourite TV programme?
0:09:30 > 0:09:32Songs of Praise.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36Why did you choose to live as artists?
0:09:36 > 0:09:40It was not our choice, we are driven to be artists.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42What's your biggest hope?
0:09:42 > 0:09:45We hope for better recognition.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48What's your biggest fear?
0:09:48 > 0:09:50We fear everything.
0:09:50 > 0:09:51All the time.
0:09:51 > 0:09:56Much of the work - and we're going to talk about this more - has been regarded as shocking
0:09:56 > 0:10:03by some people in terms of the words used, the materials used, has that ever been your intention?
0:10:04 > 0:10:09We always talk about de-shocking, really. We prefer to think of it in those terms.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12We're not the artists who make people run screaming
0:10:12 > 0:10:16from the museum or gallery, or have the police involved.
0:10:16 > 0:10:21- We're very subversive, really. Not so controversial in that way. - Why do you use the term de-shocking?
0:10:21 > 0:10:23Tell me more about what you meant by that.
0:10:23 > 0:10:29When a person says, "You shouldn't have made that picture, Shitted, it shouldn't have been exhibited,"
0:10:29 > 0:10:33we say, "That's your view, but you're too late, because we're talking about it."
0:10:33 > 0:10:37It's as simple as that. People in general are not shocked,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40only the media say that people are shocked.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43They have this patronising idea of the ordinary person.
0:10:43 > 0:10:48Ordinary people are very, very complex and elaborate and sophisticated.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52It's newspapers more, I think, not ordinary people.
0:10:52 > 0:10:57Never had a taxi driver or waiter say, your pictures are shocking or provocative. Never.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59They love them. "Good on you guys," they say.
0:10:59 > 0:11:04I think shocking would be more like killing somebody, or hurting somebody.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06The news, television news, that's shocking.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08Hurting people. I think that's shocking.
0:11:08 > 0:11:13You also play with expectation, because some people, and indeed, some journalists,
0:11:13 > 0:11:18seeing the word "urethra" in the title of this exhibition, they have a very different idea of
0:11:18 > 0:11:22what they might see from, in fact, what they do see.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26I suppose, to some extent, the urethra is de-shocked in these,
0:11:26 > 0:11:31because if your urethra really looked like that, you should see a doctor quite urgently!
0:11:31 > 0:11:36We like the word "urethra", because people don't use the common term for it.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38We wouldn't even use it on television probably.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41- It would allow the bleeper immediately.- Yes.
0:11:41 > 0:11:46And have you been to a urethra exhibition before? Certainly not. So it's very good to have one.
0:11:46 > 0:11:52Even after all, it is the beginning of life. That's where we come from, roughly.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55The sperm. By the urethra. We are fascinated by all this,
0:11:55 > 0:11:59what you call opening up new ways of thinking, you know.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03Everybody's excited in some way, even when they are shocked in some way,
0:12:03 > 0:12:09but for us, it is stimulating. Even like the telephone box leaflets.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Everybody who goes into a telephone box tries to look at it only from
0:12:12 > 0:12:16one eye, and pretend the other eye is looking somewhere else.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19And now, they can come in and look at it, straight out.
0:12:19 > 0:12:24You're talking about those little - which you have used in some of these - those little postcards
0:12:24 > 0:12:30- advertising the services of often young men and women. Often not so young.- Yes.
0:12:30 > 0:12:35We were fascinated. They're part of London life. Paris, New York, they don't have them.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39Rome, they don't have them. It's another first for Britain. It's extraordinary.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43It is, in the end, a huge social document that we collected all of these cards.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47They don't exist anymore, the ones in this show. They're all different now.
0:12:47 > 0:12:53They're more boring now, so they are really from the golden age of telephone box cards, you could say.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56So the cards in these, they are real cards?
0:12:56 > 0:13:00They're all real cards, stuck down. Yes, that's very important.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Were you tempted to ring any of the numbers and see who was on the end?
0:13:04 > 0:13:06They're doing it for us. A lot of people.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08Are they? I thought they might be.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12Yes, it was very funny, because actually, we did another group of pictures
0:13:12 > 0:13:19called the New Horny Pictures, and some of the, what you call, the gentlemen who are advertising,
0:13:19 > 0:13:22they thanked us for being in the artwork.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26- Becoming immortal, they felt. - Do you read reviews,
0:13:26 > 0:13:30and if so, to what extent do you take notice of them?
0:13:30 > 0:13:34My motto is, I don't want to know.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36That's what I say to myself.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38Day and night.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42- And George is... in the end, I will see them as well. - I tell him the good bits.
0:13:42 > 0:13:49But because we realise, it took a long time to realise, we wouldn't change our way of making art.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51It's either good or bad.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53We wouldn't.
0:13:53 > 0:14:01So, I mean, they are very useful to get people into the gallery, that's what we like to do,
0:14:01 > 0:14:06but more and more, we are doing the campaign outside the reviews ourselves.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11Because a lot of art critics are prejudiced. They go with idea, they know exactly what they see.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14They don't even have to come to see the show. They know it.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18They are prejudiced towards certain kind of ideas.
0:14:18 > 0:14:24I want to talk now about the one area of your life which was separate, which is childhood.
0:14:24 > 0:14:30If we start with you first, Gilbert, what are your earliest memories of your Italian childhood?
0:14:30 > 0:14:32I remember quite a lot.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Yes, I must admit that.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37It's a fantastic village, where I come from.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41It's a little village of 900 people in the Dolomites.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43Beautiful mountains, extraordinary.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47Was there any interest or sense of art in your family?
0:14:47 > 0:14:53Very much so. It's very exciting, because my father was a shoemaker.
0:14:53 > 0:14:58I had an uncle who had some kind of bone cancer.
0:14:58 > 0:15:03He was in many different hospitals, like in Venice and elsewhere.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06He always used to paint.
0:15:06 > 0:15:12In fact, he actually went to an art school when he was very young already, and that's it.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14That's what I wanted to do.
0:15:14 > 0:15:21I must have been six or seven years old when I became interested.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25George, you, presumably, growing up in Plymouth, a famous naval town,
0:15:25 > 0:15:30there was a much stronger sense of the post-war period?
0:15:30 > 0:15:38We were actually bombed out of Plymouth in '42, so we ended up in Totnes, an old borough.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45I think I had quite a privileged childhood, considering the times, really.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48It was just my mother and my brother,
0:15:48 > 0:15:54and we were never allowed to play with the other children, which was very good.
0:15:54 > 0:15:59We never became the local rough idiots. It was a very good idea.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02Was that because she thought they were rough, your mother?
0:16:02 > 0:16:07I think she wanted better things for her children, and she was quite right.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11Did you feel the lack of a father? There must have come an age when you were aware of that?
0:16:11 > 0:16:17No. Nothing was ever mentioned in the family about father or Dad or anything.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19It felt very normal, really.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22You must have been curious about him at some point?
0:16:22 > 0:16:26I was curious, and when I was 21, I went to see him, yes,
0:16:26 > 0:16:28for the first and last time.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30It wasn't necessary to go back again.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34I had to find him in a pub in the village,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37and the barman pointed him out to me.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40I went up and said, "Do you think we could go to the other bar?"
0:16:40 > 0:16:44He said, "There's no need to do that, what's your business?"
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I said, "Could we go to the other bar?" probably 17 times.
0:16:47 > 0:16:52I said, "My name's George and I think I'm your son." He said, "Good God, let's go to the other bar!"
0:16:52 > 0:16:55It was very amusing.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59Was there any sense of art in your family?
0:16:59 > 0:17:01No, I think not, probably.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03No, absolutely not.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07I was interested in art from being a child, and as a teenager,
0:17:07 > 0:17:13I bought a second hand book of Van Gogh's letters.
0:17:13 > 0:17:18That convinced me entirely, because I realised that it was somebody who hadn't done the right thing,
0:17:18 > 0:17:21hadn't had the right training, mixed in the wrong circles,
0:17:21 > 0:17:26behaved very badly, but still succeeded totally in being able to speak from the grave forever.
0:17:26 > 0:17:32That impressed me completely. I'm still impressed by Van Gogh.
0:17:32 > 0:17:36Did you know relatively early on what your sexuality was?
0:17:36 > 0:17:41We don't think of it in that way. We try to be post-gay, in a way.
0:17:41 > 0:17:46To say that everyone is sexual in some way, everyone is capable of everything.
0:17:46 > 0:17:51We prefer the idea of nil, the non-divisional way of thinking about sex.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54That everything is fine.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58They used to do it, even. All the Romans, they did everything.
0:17:58 > 0:18:03You didn't have to be one way only. Sex is sex.
0:18:05 > 0:18:10We don't like to be part of shows towards a certain kind of sex.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15Not at all. We accept sex, that's about it.
0:18:15 > 0:18:22But we don't want to be divided into certain sections.
0:18:22 > 0:18:23I think it is very bad, even.
0:18:23 > 0:18:29Because anybody is able to do whatever they want, no?
0:18:29 > 0:18:30Different ways of sexuality.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33We don't know what everybody does behind their bedroom doors.
0:18:33 > 0:18:38When you're listed, as you have been, in those lists
0:18:38 > 0:18:41of the 100 most influential gay people in Britain...
0:18:41 > 0:18:45Oh, that's perfectly all right, of course.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50- So, although that is a division, that doesn't irritate you?- We wouldn't be irritated by that. Not at all.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52There is nothing we can do about it!
0:18:54 > 0:18:58The moment when you met - ideally, as on the TV show Mr and Mrs,
0:18:58 > 0:19:01we would send one of you into a soundproof booth,
0:19:01 > 0:19:08to check that you have similar memories, but this first meeting, 25th September 19...
0:19:08 > 0:19:11- Good heavens, you have the date! - 1967.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14Are your memories, in fact, the same of it?
0:19:14 > 0:19:19I always say something that came over us, like an atmosphere or a cloud.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23It wasn't something we decided or went for.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28I think we were almost artists before we realised.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31People were commenting on it.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35The most common comment at that time was, "How interesting, but of course, it can't last."
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Because twos didn't last at that time.
0:19:39 > 0:19:43For me, it was simple. I went to St Martin's School of Art. I couldn't speak English.
0:19:43 > 0:19:48I wanted to be there, because when I was in my last year in Munich,
0:19:48 > 0:19:50I thought I had to be somewhere else
0:19:50 > 0:19:54where it is happening. And London was it.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57I became very fascinated by St Martin's School of Art.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00I managed to squeeze in, in some way.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06I remember walking up there and George took an interest.
0:20:06 > 0:20:11That was it. I don't ask him any questions, he took an interest in me.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15We went out and we created a world for ourselves.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18He showed me London, he showed me the East End of London.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22At that moment, we really became two persons together,
0:20:22 > 0:20:26without actually making a big decision.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29We weren't like the other students, that's for sure.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33They were all intent on becoming artists and working out how to become an artist.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36We felt we were artists anyway.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40The G&G world started
0:20:40 > 0:20:47when we were stranded outside St Martin's School of Art, when we left.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51The moment that you leave school, you are alone for the first time,
0:20:51 > 0:20:55because they don't want to know you any more. The teachers think, that's it.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59They turned against us, in fact, they turned against us.
0:20:59 > 0:21:05- In what way?- Even the head of sculpture, the very famous Frank Martin, turned against us.
0:21:05 > 0:21:10He felt that we were betraying the cause of sculpture, probably.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13We were very unsure of the attitude of the college.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16We asked a friend to write a letter,
0:21:16 > 0:21:21saying she was interested in doing some project, would they recommend us?
0:21:21 > 0:21:26Back came a letter from the college, "Under no circumstances have anything to do with these people!"
0:21:28 > 0:21:32Even then, we felt very proud. We thought we must be doing right.
0:21:32 > 0:21:39It was very exciting, because then we had this idea for the Singing Sculpture,
0:21:39 > 0:21:43and we thought, OK, we have to go back to St Martin School of Art,
0:21:43 > 0:21:47the Royal College of Art, the Camberwell School of Art, the Slade School of Art,
0:21:47 > 0:21:52and we did amazing publicity for it. Everybody was there.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54# Underneath the arches
0:21:54 > 0:21:57# We dream our dreams away... #
0:21:57 > 0:22:00Anyway, Frank Martin left immediately.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03He stormed out in the middle of it.
0:22:03 > 0:22:09500 students saw this man enraged, stomping out. So they knew it was a marvellous sculpture.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11If they weren't sure, that told them.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14It was very good, because they rejected us,
0:22:14 > 0:22:19then we knew we had to do it on our own.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21# Heralding the dawn
0:22:21 > 0:22:23# Sleeping when it's raining... #
0:22:23 > 0:22:28What led directly to the idea of the Singing Sculptures?
0:22:28 > 0:22:34We didn't do just the singing... we did every day, something different.
0:22:34 > 0:22:39We did a Walking Sculpture, Singing Sculpture, the Eating Sculpture, Magazine Sculpture,
0:22:39 > 0:22:44the Postal Sculpture, every day, creating a G&G world,
0:22:44 > 0:22:51without having to be in a gallery. So the world... all the world...
0:22:51 > 0:22:56- What did they say in the text? - All of the world was an art gallery. - All the world an art gallery.
0:22:56 > 0:23:03That is what we did. We were able to speak to artistic people, in some way,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06with the Postal Sculptures we did in '69,
0:23:06 > 0:23:11sending out to collectors and stuff like that. And even, in 1970,
0:23:11 > 0:23:18'71 or '72, we did a Magazine Sculpture for the Sunday Times.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24We realised we couldn't be in a gallery, but we still wanted to be artists.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28We were able to create a total new world. It was very exciting.
0:23:28 > 0:23:33It was the Living Sculpture that led to the Singing Sculpture going to Germany,
0:23:33 > 0:23:39which was an enormous success. It was the first great piece of chance luck that we had.
0:23:39 > 0:23:45There was a very famous international touring exhibition, called When Attitudes Become Form,
0:23:45 > 0:23:48or Live In Your Head, it was called, as well.
0:23:48 > 0:23:55Wherever it went in the world, a curator was asked to add artists from that city to the exhibition.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58It was coming to the ICA in London.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02We knew the selector and we knew we would be included.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06And to our shock and horror, he didn't invite us, we were amazed by that.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10We were some of the very few artists who could be included in that show.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14We were rather desperate. We were very downcast.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17We thought it was a missed opportunity.
0:24:17 > 0:24:23We thought that the only thing we could do about it was to be living sculptures, which we are already.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27We will take ourselves to the private view and be living sculptures.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30We went there, with our hands and heads covered
0:24:30 > 0:24:32with multi-coloured, metallised powders.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35And we stood stock-still in the middle of the opening.
0:24:35 > 0:24:37We stole the show entirely.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40At the end of the evening, a young man said,
0:24:40 > 0:24:44"I am Konrad Fischer, you will do something for me in Dusseldorf, huh?"
0:24:44 > 0:24:49The most famous art dealer of his age, and it was an invitation any artist would die for.
0:24:49 > 0:24:54We went to Dusseldorf and did the Singing Sculpture, to enormous success.
0:24:54 > 0:25:00It was very strange, it's a completely normal and democratic thing for the general public.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03You have sculptures in museums, on plinths.
0:25:03 > 0:25:09To see two men moving on a table is not unlike a sculpture.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11It's called a Living Sculpture, anyway.
0:25:11 > 0:25:16People of all backgrounds and age groups could stand and look at this sculpture for hours on end.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18It was an enormous success.
0:25:18 > 0:25:22# Underneath the arches
0:25:22 > 0:25:25# On cobblestones I lay
0:25:25 > 0:25:29# Every night you'll find me
0:25:29 > 0:25:32# Tired out and worn... #
0:25:40 > 0:25:46Three Dozen Streets, a work from 2003, is particularly significant, I think.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49Because it has the names of East London streets.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51That has become central to your work.
0:25:51 > 0:25:54What took you to East London in the first place?
0:25:54 > 0:25:56Was that just chance, luck again?
0:25:56 > 0:25:59Just the cheapest place to live.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02£12 a month for one floor of any building.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05And you could live, work or work or live, didn't matter.
0:26:05 > 0:26:10At that time, if you had a bedsit, you wouldn't be allowed to paint or sculpt in it.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13If you had a studio, you wouldn't be allowed to stay overnight.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16In these buildings, you could do both, very cheap.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20Based on accident, we like that, whatever happens happens,
0:26:20 > 0:26:23sometimes bad accidents turn out to be extraordinarily good ones.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27That's what we like very much.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30It became the centre of the universe, anyway.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34If you get on an aeroplane or a train, sit in a restaurant anywhere in the world,
0:26:34 > 0:26:40within three or four minutes, somebody says, "Brick Lane". It's quite extraordinary.
0:26:40 > 0:26:45I really believe that George is the only English person in Spitalfields!
0:26:47 > 0:26:54Were you regarded at that time as eccentric? Did you stand out there at all?
0:26:54 > 0:26:58We have always been the favourites of the Cockney people.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01They are very proud that somebody lives there.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04We are not born Cockneys.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08But we are settled in what they feel is the East End. They are very proud of us, in fact.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13Even the Bangladeshis are quite proud of us. We feel we are honorary Cockneys,
0:27:13 > 0:27:20honorary Bangladeshis, honorary Muslims, honorary Alevi Kurds now. We're close to the Alevi people.
0:27:20 > 0:27:24We don't believe that eccentric means homophobic in some way.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28No, I wondered about that, because you were two men living together.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30The odd couple and all of this.
0:27:30 > 0:27:35It is still going on, non-stop, this "eccentric". What do you mean?
0:27:36 > 0:27:40It can mean anything, it can mean the way you dress.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42We know roughly what it means, yes.
0:27:42 > 0:27:47Were you aware of homophobia at that stage in the East End?
0:27:47 > 0:27:52Of course. It is endemic to this day. Now it's only amongst the educated people, isn't it?
0:27:52 > 0:27:56Ordinary people are much more liberal now than ever before.
0:27:56 > 0:28:00Other artists, as they have become rich or famous, Antony Gormley,
0:28:00 > 0:28:03Damien Hirst, they have bought huge houses in the country.
0:28:03 > 0:28:08Have you ever been tempted to go?
0:28:08 > 0:28:11No. We have everything that we want.
0:28:11 > 0:28:13We are not that normal!
0:28:19 > 0:28:22But you have never left the area?
0:28:22 > 0:28:23No, we don't want anything.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27It's very simple. We bought a house in 1973
0:28:27 > 0:28:31that we did up ourselves, day and night, for five or six years.
0:28:31 > 0:28:36We restored it. We were the first ones to restore one of those houses in the East End of London.
0:28:36 > 0:28:44Normally, they were used as factories for Jewish immigrants, at that time.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48They were making buttons, making fur coats and they were tailors.
0:28:48 > 0:28:53We were the first ones to take it back to a private house, in some way.
0:28:53 > 0:28:59We never wanted other properties, or holiday homes, cars or yachts.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01We live very, very simply, extremely simple.
0:29:01 > 0:29:06What we like most is our 45 minutes - or George, two hours - walk in the evening.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08That's fantastic.
0:29:08 > 0:29:11I'd never want to go and see another city.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13Everything is in the brain.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17We don't need to see beautiful mountains, beautiful villages,
0:29:17 > 0:29:22we don't have to be inspired by the pyramids of Egypt.
0:29:22 > 0:29:25Because, for us, it's all in the brain, inside.
0:29:25 > 0:29:30# Bend it, bend it, just a little bit
0:29:30 > 0:29:35# And take it easy, show you're liking it
0:29:35 > 0:29:38# And lover, you know that we're gonna hit
0:29:38 > 0:29:42# The heights, cos I'm sure that we're made to fit
0:29:42 > 0:29:45# Together, just like pieces of a
0:29:45 > 0:29:49# Jigsaw puzzle, what's the hustle... #
0:29:49 > 0:29:52When we look back at your art now, it's clear in retrospect,
0:29:52 > 0:29:56at least to me, you were constantly questioning what could be called sculptures.
0:29:56 > 0:29:59So you bring in performance art, in some of those early works,
0:29:59 > 0:30:06you're using charcoal... other people would say were drawings, later on, paint comes in.
0:30:06 > 0:30:07Was that a conscious...?
0:30:07 > 0:30:11It's one of the things that annoyed the head of sculpture. Was that a
0:30:11 > 0:30:16conscious decision you were going to question what sculpture was?
0:30:16 > 0:30:19We called everything sculpture in the beginning just because we had been sculpture students.
0:30:19 > 0:30:23We abandoned that when we realised it wasn't so democratic, it was a
0:30:23 > 0:30:25little confusing for the vast general public.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27The art world liked that.
0:30:27 > 0:30:31We said charcoal on paper sculptures rather than drawings.
0:30:31 > 0:30:35All the paintings was a sculpture not six triptychs.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37But I think we were trying to find our form and
0:30:37 > 0:30:44we realised the negative image when you press the button on a camera is the most important thing.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46Because if a person goes to a museum
0:30:46 > 0:30:50and sees a marble naked figure and a bronze naked figure,
0:30:50 > 0:30:53and then an oil painting naked figure, they won't bat an eyelid.
0:30:53 > 0:30:58The tribal African naked sculptures, all fine until you see a full-sized
0:30:58 > 0:31:01naked figure taken with the camera and then you are in trouble.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05Because it means more, it's more truthful, more honest.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08So we were always working towards that, and all of the charcoal on
0:31:08 > 0:31:12paper sculpture done with a photograph and then copied, as other paintings.
0:31:12 > 0:31:17But we didn't know how technically to make a large, what became a photo piece,
0:31:17 > 0:31:19and now we call them pictures.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22We found a way with the negative
0:31:22 > 0:31:27I think that for us was more powerful than the photo piece.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30For us it became the best language to speak.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33Drawings means immediately art.
0:31:33 > 0:31:38Painting means old fashioned art.
0:31:38 > 0:31:44Even today, art still means oil painting and we tried to get away in speaking in
0:31:44 > 0:31:50the modern way. We are very proud we found our own way of speaking.
0:31:50 > 0:31:56There's a big exhibition at the moment in London at the Royal Academy of British sculpture.
0:31:56 > 0:32:00It struck me ideally you two should be standing in there singing.
0:32:00 > 0:32:07We thought they should give us at least the possibility to refuse.
0:32:07 > 0:32:12I'm interested in that. Did you feel you perhaps ought to have been in that exhibition?
0:32:12 > 0:32:15- I think they should have asked us. - They should have asked, yes.
0:32:15 > 0:32:21Because we broke the idea of the sculpture as an object in that way
0:32:21 > 0:32:23- that it could be anything.- Anything. It could be sound.
0:32:23 > 0:32:27We're very pleased we are not in because it's quite an
0:32:27 > 0:32:30horrific mess the exhibition, it seems.
0:32:30 > 0:32:34It would also be quite demanding for you to spend four months standing there?
0:32:34 > 0:32:39We would show a film of the singing sculpture or postal sculptures, or charcoal on paper sculptures.
0:32:39 > 0:32:44Even right up until the Dirty Words pictures there's still sculpture in the wording as it says on the piece.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47Even the paintings, with us in nature.
0:32:47 > 0:32:52- They are a massive amount - six big triptychs.- A sculpture.
0:32:52 > 0:32:56A sculpture. They are six metres each. We just sold it this year to a museum
0:32:56 > 0:33:02- that only shows sculpture - The Kroller-Muller.- It still works.
0:33:02 > 0:33:07People inevitably look for a division in the work which is how we think, of who did that and who did that?
0:33:07 > 0:33:11You most remind me of the Coen brothers, the film directors.
0:33:11 > 0:33:16They take the shared credit "produced and directed by Joel and Ethan".
0:33:16 > 0:33:22And when they're asked who made that shot and who did that and who produces and who directs,
0:33:22 > 0:33:26they say it is a pointless question.
0:33:26 > 0:33:28We don't even know.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32- How would you know?- For us it is very simple, because we take images.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35We both have cameras, nobody knows who took what.
0:33:35 > 0:33:42I tell Gilbert what I think and feel and Gilbert tells me what he thinks and feels, so it's one big...
0:33:42 > 0:33:44- Soup.- ..soup together.
0:33:44 > 0:33:48I mentioned the charcoal sculptures and in
0:33:48 > 0:33:55about the mid-70s there was a great explosion of colour, particularly red which in fact goes right
0:33:55 > 0:34:00- through your career. Again, was that a conscious decision?- Yes.
0:34:00 > 0:34:07It was an amazing discovery because we always say that unlike children or artists or amateur painters, we
0:34:07 > 0:34:12did not start with a box of colours or a box of crayons or coloured pencils.
0:34:12 > 0:34:16- We didn't have any colour, we had black and white.- Black and white.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19It took us four years to find red.
0:34:19 > 0:34:21Because it felt it was connected with anger, to do with love,
0:34:21 > 0:34:28to do with blood, to do with danger, to do with Communism, to do with fear, to do with sunset.
0:34:28 > 0:34:33And we felt we could use red in different ways to add to the black and white.
0:34:33 > 0:34:35And how long before we found yellow?
0:34:35 > 0:34:42I think in 1980 we had these are four or five different colours, blue, yellow and green.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45So very, very slow
0:34:45 > 0:34:46to find colour.
0:34:46 > 0:34:51In fact, because we always said our colours are based on meanings.
0:34:54 > 0:35:01Meanings for colour, like we always used to say the yellow had a sophistication and
0:35:01 > 0:35:06red is anger and blue is more, I don't know eternity.
0:35:07 > 0:35:09One can make difference moods with colours.
0:35:09 > 0:35:11Combined with the subject.
0:35:11 > 0:35:15Another element that is there from early on is the use of words,
0:35:15 > 0:35:22almost a graffiti-like element often the words used in graffiti like the words "fuck" or "cunt" in some cases.
0:35:22 > 0:35:28This is what led to the suggestion from some people that you work is shocking.
0:35:28 > 0:35:34You must have, you were aware those words were explosive?
0:35:34 > 0:35:38They are mostly ones which also appear in the Bible and the Oxford Dictionary by the way.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41I think we started with the magazine sculpture
0:35:41 > 0:35:42The Shit and The Cunt
0:35:42 > 0:35:45as a sort of pre-emptive strike.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47It didn't matter what they called
0:35:47 > 0:35:48us after that, we'd done it first.
0:35:48 > 0:35:52Then we wanted to use the... We felt that the
0:35:52 > 0:35:58city we were trying to show was a sort of rude word and an angry shout and things.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01So we went around and took "fuck", "shit", "lick", "dick".
0:36:01 > 0:36:03We thought it was an extraordinary discovery.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07They're still are amazing these pictures. Communism, Smash The Reds.
0:36:07 > 0:36:13It was a kind of abusiveness that we found on the walls that we felt was more real than a
0:36:13 > 0:36:16nice piece of writing.
0:36:16 > 0:36:22It became this more aggressive, more real and told an extraordinary story
0:36:22 > 0:36:27of 1977, 78 when we started to do the first graffiti one.
0:36:27 > 0:36:31It was real at that time, probably more real than all the newspapers.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34Simple version of aggression.
0:36:34 > 0:36:40And we always liked that, we always liked the writing behind the door.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43We are still keeping that up in some way.
0:36:43 > 0:36:47We always felt it must be very close to the active creativity, what
0:36:47 > 0:36:51drives a person to go out and write "fuck" on the wall?
0:36:51 > 0:36:54Not everyone does - very, very few people.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57The driving force that makes a person do that is very close to the
0:36:57 > 0:37:00force that would make somebody write a poem or paint a picture.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03We don't swear ourselves.
0:37:03 > 0:37:07Although one is seen as destructive and one as seen as creative generally?
0:37:07 > 0:37:12Yes, but we realised at that time that that was coming to an end, that kind of anger.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14And it did come to an end.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16No one writes that on the walls any more.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20Writing on walls or saying something on walls is a sophisticated, elaborate thing.
0:37:20 > 0:37:23Although there is a lot of anger still?
0:37:23 > 0:37:26Not in that way. Nobody writes "prick", "arse"
0:37:26 > 0:37:28on the wall anymore. It's all gone.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31You said you don't swear yourselves?
0:37:31 > 0:37:34- No.- Of course not. We're very normal.
0:37:36 > 0:37:43We mentioned several times the reaction, the shocked reaction of some newspapers and some people.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46Have you ever felt in retrospect you went too far?
0:37:46 > 0:37:49- Is there anything you ever regretted? - Not one second.- No.
0:37:49 > 0:37:55We know the line we want to go up to, whether we are showing in China or London or New York.
0:37:55 > 0:37:56We know exactly that line.
0:37:56 > 0:38:00We don't want to offend any single person in that way.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03We don't want to aggress the viewer.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07We don't want to say, "Look at this, you do agree with it, if not you're stupid".
0:38:07 > 0:38:10A lot of artists do that. We don't do that.
0:38:10 > 0:38:18Art has to be visually different. If not it's like everything else.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21- It has to be different.- We want to grab the person.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24We grab the attention of the person in front of it.
0:38:24 > 0:38:32Our motto is, when they see a show of ours, they have to be able to remember that show for ever
0:38:32 > 0:38:34or that picture for ever.
0:38:34 > 0:38:36That is why we simplify it...
0:38:37 > 0:38:41..like a stencil that speaks.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44When the word "Paki" appeared in one of the paintings,
0:38:44 > 0:38:47to me you weren't endorsing that word,
0:38:47 > 0:38:53it is a word that is used offensively and you were reflecting that.
0:38:53 > 0:38:58But that did concern some viewers of it?
0:38:58 > 0:39:01Yes, it's the same educated group who
0:39:01 > 0:39:05would be against us using the Union Jack or using an image of a soldier.
0:39:05 > 0:39:09There is nothing wrong with the word "Paki", it is the same as "Aussie" or "Brit".
0:39:09 > 0:39:13There is, if it's used derogatively.
0:39:13 > 0:39:18If you say "Paki bastard", yes then it's offensive. But if you say "Paki", it's not.
0:39:18 > 0:39:22But it's used to denigrate a particular...
0:39:22 > 0:39:27We don't agree it should be offensive. It is an abbreviation of a word isn't it?
0:39:27 > 0:39:29It came from Scotland.
0:39:29 > 0:39:34But it is a term with a negative racial history.
0:39:34 > 0:39:38- It became negative.- We think that's sad and we should like to rob that back, steal it back.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40You were reclaiming it?
0:39:40 > 0:39:43Absolutely, rather like when we did the picture Queer.
0:39:43 > 0:39:45A lot of gay people
0:39:45 > 0:39:47were up in arms about that.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50Two years later they were having "Queer" and "Fuck" on their T-shirts
0:39:50 > 0:39:51and dancing the night away.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54The word "queer" was then reclaimed I think.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57Yeah. There's nothing wrong inherently with the word "Paki".
0:39:57 > 0:39:58- Absolutely not.- It is not dero...
0:39:58 > 0:40:01It's just an abbreviation of a word.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05They made it into something that it actually was not.
0:40:05 > 0:40:09There were six Indo-Pak clubs for single men in our district at that time.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12They've gone now because their families came over.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15- But...- I think it can be an endowment as well.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18But by using that term in a painting,
0:40:18 > 0:40:24a picture, to some people it is endorsing it, saying this word is...
0:40:24 > 0:40:27For some people, yes. I agree with that.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30If it makes people think about racism, which it did, it's very good, I think.
0:40:30 > 0:40:34It brings things out from inside of people that they otherwise wouldn't think.
0:40:34 > 0:40:38They won't talk about racism or Pakistani people going to see
0:40:38 > 0:40:41all these silly abstract art exhibitions, will they?
0:40:41 > 0:40:43It's rather good.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46No, but some of your critics were accusing you of being racist.
0:40:46 > 0:40:47Yeah, but we don't believe in the critics.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49Did that make you uncomfortable?
0:40:49 > 0:40:52Yes, it did but we don't
0:40:52 > 0:40:54believe that we did something wrong.
0:40:54 > 0:40:59- Subsequently you never thought, "We need to be more careful"?- No.
0:40:59 > 0:41:01I wouldn't think that.
0:41:01 > 0:41:07I think we naturally have an idea of the line up to which we want to go.
0:41:07 > 0:41:14One of those lines for some people was the use of bodily substances of various kinds.
0:41:14 > 0:41:15Semen, blood, faeces,
0:41:15 > 0:41:18some more controversial than others.
0:41:18 > 0:41:23Were you aware of taking on a taboo when you did that?
0:41:23 > 0:41:26Yes, we were aware. It was even difficult for us.
0:41:26 > 0:41:32But at the same time, you can go into a library and find all this stuff in many, many books.
0:41:32 > 0:41:35I think we did an extraordinary experiment
0:41:35 > 0:41:41with that. We found out about even DNA before people commonly thought about that.
0:41:41 > 0:41:46They can take one little bit of fingernail and tell all about you and your family forever.
0:41:46 > 0:41:51I think the Shit, Blood, Piss and the Tears has something of that in it as well.
0:41:51 > 0:41:55Indeed all the substances you use have been used in forensic science.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59- Oh, yes.- Yes. - In order to identify people.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04Sometimes we feel we're scraping the streets of London with our fingernails, then seeing what's
0:42:04 > 0:42:06inside them in the studio, underneath.
0:42:06 > 0:42:11But we like very much that visual effect because they create an amazing visual effect.
0:42:11 > 0:42:12There were flowers in piss,
0:42:12 > 0:42:14there are daggers in sweat,
0:42:14 > 0:42:16we think it's very exciting.
0:42:18 > 0:42:24There's a quote from 1997 which touches on this I think. "We wanted to do art to
0:42:24 > 0:42:28"be embarrassed, art that embarrasses ourselves, I think we still do that.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31"We are very embarrassed sometimes of what we're doing,
0:42:31 > 0:42:34"and that's a good feeling. When it hurts, then it's true for us".
0:42:34 > 0:42:37We believe in that, yes.
0:42:37 > 0:42:38We still... Every show is that.
0:42:38 > 0:42:43As we make the pictures we always know we have a feeling of...
0:42:43 > 0:42:46That's what we call creativity, really.
0:42:46 > 0:42:50The only thing we can compare it with is when one's deeply attracted
0:42:50 > 0:42:55to a new person, that everything else is different, not just that person.
0:42:55 > 0:43:03The house and the garden, the air, the atmosphere, everything is exalted because of that feeling.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06When we're in the studio creating, it's like that. We're on another plane really.
0:43:06 > 0:43:13It is embarrassing. It is difficult. You would like to run away from it.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16- And it's exciting.- And it's exciting because it is that edge.
0:43:16 > 0:43:18It must be like being on the front.
0:43:18 > 0:43:23It is all exciting and nervous-making and at the same time...
0:43:23 > 0:43:27- It's a thrill.- ..That's the best thing you can do in art.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30If not, you just do boring art. It doesn't mean anything.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32We know about that.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35We have been anti-elitist from the day we left St Martin's.
0:43:35 > 0:43:37Whilst we were at St Martin's, we were already...
0:43:39 > 0:43:41We never wanted to do art for the few.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47We knew that if you took the sculptures that people were making at St Martin's outside
0:43:47 > 0:43:53onto the Charing Cross Road, they would lose all value immediately, no-one would notice them.
0:43:53 > 0:43:58We wanted to make an art that meant something to every single person, wherever they lived in the world.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01They'd look at that picture and it would speak to them in some way.
0:44:01 > 0:44:07Not just London, Paris, New York, three over-educated arty twits.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09Art for all. We always said art for all.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11But that question of being embarrassed, so in the
0:44:11 > 0:44:14pictures, for example, where you're
0:44:14 > 0:44:18both standing naked in various poses,
0:44:18 > 0:44:20did you ever formally discuss that?
0:44:20 > 0:44:22"We are going to use ourselves in this way."
0:44:22 > 0:44:26Yes, it came from using other people, probably.
0:44:26 > 0:44:30We had other people naked in the pictures and then the next stage is us.
0:44:30 > 0:44:33Was it, as they say in movies, a closed set?
0:44:33 > 0:44:35You were just naked with each other?
0:44:35 > 0:44:41Yeah, we take photographs of each other and together with a cable as well.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44A timing device.
0:44:44 > 0:44:48The only interesting thing is that it is known naked.
0:44:48 > 0:44:50Anonymous naked means nothing.
0:44:50 > 0:44:52All the magazines are full of that.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55It's only if they have a photograph of the Queen
0:44:55 > 0:44:58and the Duke of Edinburgh naked will the world beat a path to it.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01If not, it doesn't mean anything. They all run naked through the woods.
0:45:01 > 0:45:03Known naked is the key.
0:45:03 > 0:45:06All these artists who have thousands of people naked, means nothing.
0:45:06 > 0:45:10Do you ever think, what will people make of this lot?
0:45:10 > 0:45:16- We want to be loved, that's very important.- We all want to be loved!- That's very important.
0:45:16 > 0:45:21That's why we always have to do the next pictures. Maybe the next time they will love us, that's it.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25We know we have fans out there who will love the pictures,
0:45:25 > 0:45:28and we know that two or three people will be against them.
0:45:28 > 0:45:32It has to be pulled against but in general, we have to be
0:45:32 > 0:45:36able to do what we want and continue doing what we want
0:45:36 > 0:45:40because time changes everything that we realise.
0:45:40 > 0:45:44Time changes the artwork.
0:45:44 > 0:45:49The best example is the Dirty Words Pictures which we created in 1977.
0:45:49 > 0:45:55Most of our friends and supporters at that time thought that we'd gone over the top.
0:45:55 > 0:46:01Getting a bit silly, you know? You don't need to make pictures with "prick", "arse", "cunt", "dick" in.
0:46:01 > 0:46:03A bit too much, they felt.
0:46:03 > 0:46:0627 years later, we showed them all together for the first time in the
0:46:06 > 0:46:08Serpentine Gallery and some of those
0:46:08 > 0:46:09same people were around
0:46:09 > 0:46:11and came to the opening,
0:46:11 > 0:46:12admiring the pictures.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15We said, "Don't you remember in 1977 you said...?"
0:46:15 > 0:46:19"Oh, no, we've always loved them."
0:46:19 > 0:46:22The pictures had stayed the same, but the world had changed.
0:46:22 > 0:46:25The world accommodated the dirty words.
0:46:25 > 0:46:27The world is changing, very, very slow.
0:46:27 > 0:46:31We don't even realise how slow it changes. But it is changing.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33And we're all part of that. You're part of it as well.
0:46:33 > 0:46:37You talked about being on the outside of the art world
0:46:37 > 0:46:42but also politically, that's the case because you have spoken in the past
0:46:42 > 0:46:44of being, if not Thatcherite,
0:46:44 > 0:46:48then at least admirers of Margaret Thatcher, which was unusual.
0:46:48 > 0:46:51- We still are.- Of course. What do you think we are, weird?
0:46:51 > 0:46:54It was seen as weird in the liberal arts world.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56It's the most normal thing to vote, conservatism.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59More people voted Conservative than anybody else.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02I think more people voted Conservative in England than Labour.
0:47:02 > 0:47:05And it's very simple because...
0:47:05 > 0:47:08What do you call? Labour is part of collectivism.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11We are for the freedom of the individual.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14That everybody is different.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16That's what we believe.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19We are not all the same. That's it.
0:47:19 > 0:47:27- You were Thatcherite, are you Cameroons now? - Absolutely! Absolutely.
0:47:27 > 0:47:33But less and less. We actually don't need politics ourselves.
0:47:33 > 0:47:35I never voted in my entire life.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38- You've never voted? - Never voted, ever.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41You sound surprised!
0:47:41 > 0:47:45We don't need anything. It's extraordinary.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48We always think that art and culture is in advance of politics.
0:47:48 > 0:47:50Because people vote culturally.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53You will probably vote depending on what books your parents
0:47:53 > 0:47:57did or did not read, what music your mother did or did not listen to.
0:47:57 > 0:48:03So in fact we're there to lead the way, to form the kind of people that will make the right kind of vote.
0:48:03 > 0:48:06I think more and more we believe anyway the whole country
0:48:06 > 0:48:10should just be organised by a very good company, to sort it all out.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13Privatise Westminster. We always voted for that suggestion.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16To make it everybody without, what do you call...
0:48:16 > 0:48:20After all, it's only to sort out a way of living, you know?
0:48:20 > 0:48:25That everybody has a certain... That everybody can survive in some way.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28It's based on surviving, in some way.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30Do you vote, George?
0:48:30 > 0:48:32- Of course.- And always Tory?
0:48:32 > 0:48:34Yes, I'm loyal.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37Loyal, loyal to the party.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39We're just champagne Conservatives.
0:48:39 > 0:48:41MARK LAWSON LAUGHS
0:48:42 > 0:48:48Although there is a paradox, which you must have reflected on clearly, which is that many of the people who
0:48:48 > 0:48:51have opposed your art have been Conservatives?
0:48:51 > 0:48:54- Generally speaking, they're left wing.- That's interesting.
0:48:54 > 0:48:56The enemy, generally speaking.
0:48:56 > 0:49:00The most hostility came from the left, yeah.
0:49:00 > 0:49:05- 1980.- Ordinary conservative people are not against artists or anything like that.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07Because they don't know about art.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09Very few know about art.
0:49:09 > 0:49:13But if I organised a coach trip from the Tunbridge Wells Conservative
0:49:13 > 0:49:17Party Society to many of your shows over the years...
0:49:17 > 0:49:22- Fine group of people!- Yes, but there would be a substantial degree of shock from a number of those.
0:49:22 > 0:49:27- I don't care about that.- The Dirty Words Pictures, there would be...
0:49:27 > 0:49:30There is a moralistic side, you're quite right that it's on
0:49:30 > 0:49:35- the left, there is a moralistic streak on the right.- Yes. Yes.
0:49:36 > 0:49:41I mean, we don't ask exactly what everybody thinks.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44Why should we do that? That's like every writer now.
0:49:44 > 0:49:49You have to be true to yourself and do whatever you think is right for you.
0:49:49 > 0:49:51It was our late friend Daniel Farson, who tackled
0:49:51 > 0:49:55Mrs Thatcher, saying is it true that she had a strong dislike of contemporary art?
0:49:55 > 0:50:00She poked him in the chest and said, "With modern art, you have to look, look and look again."
0:50:00 > 0:50:03- That's not bad, is it? - Not bad at all.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07Have you been invited to Chequers by any of these Conservative prime ministers?
0:50:07 > 0:50:10- No.- We've never been. We have been invited once.
0:50:10 > 0:50:11- By Edward Heath.- Oh yes.
0:50:11 > 0:50:14- With Lord Salisbury.- For lunch.
0:50:14 > 0:50:18For lunch. We met him in China when we had a big show, in 93.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21That was very good. We said we wanted to...
0:50:21 > 0:50:24We wanted to penetrate the viewer.
0:50:24 > 0:50:28He said, "I've been trying to penetrate the British public for years!"
0:50:31 > 0:50:33He was familiar with your art?
0:50:33 > 0:50:36- I don't know about that, but he wanted to be supportive.- Yeah.
0:50:36 > 0:50:39We don't ask so many questions ourselves.
0:50:39 > 0:50:43- We are outsiders.- Do you still see yourselves as outsiders?
0:50:43 > 0:50:49You have had a huge retrospective at the Tate, bigger than any other living artist.
0:50:49 > 0:50:51You can't still be outsiders?
0:50:51 > 0:50:53We are.
0:50:53 > 0:50:55We were only insiders for three months.
0:50:55 > 0:50:59They never hanged a picture since.
0:50:59 > 0:51:03- Do they had anything in the permanent collection?- Not that we know of.- No.
0:51:03 > 0:51:08They have a very big collection of our art, 20 or 30 pieces.
0:51:08 > 0:51:09But not on display?
0:51:09 > 0:51:11No. We don't fit in.
0:51:11 > 0:51:15- Does that irritate you?- Yes. - It surprises visitors.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17People stop us on the street from France or Japan,
0:51:17 > 0:51:21they say they've just come from the Tate Modern and there's not a picture of yours there.
0:51:21 > 0:51:25Extraordinary. They expect to see one or more. We think it's wrong.
0:51:26 > 0:51:30- Have you objected to them, have you written?- No.
0:51:30 > 0:51:34- We never write.- They know that they should do that.- They know our views.
0:51:34 > 0:51:39You don't take much interest in the modern art world?
0:51:39 > 0:51:41Damien, Tracey, all of these people?
0:51:41 > 0:51:43We know them, they are around us.
0:51:43 > 0:51:45They are on our street.
0:51:45 > 0:51:47But we don't want to,
0:51:47 > 0:51:53what you call, pollute our brains with other people's art.
0:51:53 > 0:51:55But you know what Tracey Emin does, for example?
0:51:55 > 0:52:01We know what everybody does because of the post you get - 50 invitation cards with 50 images every day.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03- Unavoidable.- But we have a very good shredder!
0:52:06 > 0:52:12Do you take a close interest in how much the work sells for and who owns it?
0:52:12 > 0:52:18We always were the artists who didn't concentrate on upping the price all the time.
0:52:18 > 0:52:19We can't have silly prices.
0:52:19 > 0:52:23We try to keep it down in a way, wouldn't you say?
0:52:23 > 0:52:25Yes, but we have never been involved in...
0:52:25 > 0:52:30We never ask who bought it because many times it is very embarrassing
0:52:30 > 0:52:33and very disappointing, so we don't want to know.
0:52:33 > 0:52:38Because after all, modern art is for the rich.
0:52:38 > 0:52:44And museums, but they have to borrow the money or be given the money to buy them.
0:52:44 > 0:52:48Seeing an artwork of us is very difficult.
0:52:48 > 0:52:53Because a lot of museums think it is too extreme, a lot of private collectors...
0:52:53 > 0:52:55We always feel that 70, 85% of collectors
0:52:55 > 0:53:02would not touch us because they are disturbed, they say, by our art.
0:53:02 > 0:53:06It's a very limited amount of people who actually are our collectors.
0:53:06 > 0:53:09That's why we are fascinated by books - that we can
0:53:09 > 0:53:15subsidise and create books and everybody can buy books in a cheap way.
0:53:15 > 0:53:19A lot of people who stop us on the street love our art and we say, where did you see it?
0:53:19 > 0:53:22They say, in a catalogue in a friend's house.
0:53:22 > 0:53:28The most ordinary place. You can buy a catalogue, you can steal it, you can lend it, you can give it.
0:53:28 > 0:53:3024 hours, every day of the year.
0:53:30 > 0:53:32Extraordinary form, books and catalogues.
0:53:32 > 0:53:37Although art is very expensive and for the rich, the fact remains that there
0:53:37 > 0:53:41are tens of millions of postcards of art works by Van Gogh and so on.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44Exhibitions are largely free or inexpensive.
0:53:46 > 0:53:50We would never want to know what
0:53:50 > 0:53:52the price of our art is.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55We make our price of the new works.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58The rest we don't know. We don't care too much.
0:53:58 > 0:54:01- Because you can't control it later on?- No you cannot.- They are sold on?
0:54:01 > 0:54:04The secondary market is the secondary market.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06In the last 20 years or so, on that secondary market,
0:54:06 > 0:54:12- eye-watering sums, as you know, modern art has been going for. - Yeah. Horrific.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15Don't like it. I think it is much too much.
0:54:15 > 0:54:18It's...horrific.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21It is cheaper to buy something from 1650, it seems.
0:54:21 > 0:54:22Extraordinary.
0:54:22 > 0:54:29That is why we prefer big shows, instead of that.
0:54:29 > 0:54:34Have you ever considered the possibility of retirement, or will you simply carry on?
0:54:34 > 0:54:36Artists never retire.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38It's unthinkable.
0:54:38 > 0:54:43It's very good because we have made ourselves more active now, with new technology.
0:54:43 > 0:54:47Normally, we had to go up ladders, in the studio.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49We don't even have to do that now.
0:54:49 > 0:54:51In front of you, on the television,
0:54:51 > 0:54:56the screen, the computer, it is like an extension of our brain.
0:54:56 > 0:54:59You can do it directly into it.
0:54:59 > 0:55:03For us, it is a fantastic technology.
0:55:03 > 0:55:06You must have thought about this over the years.
0:55:06 > 0:55:10If one of you became incapacitated, or were unavailable...
0:55:10 > 0:55:11We are both incapacitated!
0:55:13 > 0:55:15If one of you was not able to keep going?
0:55:15 > 0:55:19We had that usual joke. Remember, George.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22- Which one?- The street.- Oh, that was just if you were no longer here.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25This is just if you become ill or something.
0:55:25 > 0:55:27We can do the one if one of you is no longer here.
0:55:27 > 0:55:31You must have talked about that as well. Would the other carry on?
0:55:31 > 0:55:33We can find a replacement.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35- Why not?- We already have one.
0:55:35 > 0:55:39Our assistant, he dresses up like us already.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42They always ask this question in Germany.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47It's a German question. What happens when one of you dies?
0:55:47 > 0:55:49And what do you say in Germany?
0:55:49 > 0:55:53We always say, "Do you mean if one of us falls under a bus?
0:55:53 > 0:55:57"Fear not, we always cross the road together!"
0:56:00 > 0:56:06Imagine 100 years on, a book called British Art Of The 20th And 21st Centuries.
0:56:06 > 0:56:11We turn to the entry on Gilbert and George. What would you like it to say?
0:56:11 > 0:56:13First, we would be on the cover.
0:56:13 > 0:56:18We are setting up our own foundation.
0:56:18 > 0:56:24All of what we have is going to be there, like a little nest left over
0:56:24 > 0:56:31with all our collections, all our books, we have thousands of books, all our designs and pictures.
0:56:31 > 0:56:35All our negatives.
0:56:35 > 0:56:39And a lot of pictures as well. Everything is going to be there for a while.
0:56:39 > 0:56:42At the moment we are trying to raise money to...
0:56:42 > 0:56:45Nothing happens until we are not here.
0:56:45 > 0:56:49But our legacy will be intact.
0:56:49 > 0:56:54Not in a big way. In a small way, in our houses, in Spitalfields.
0:56:54 > 0:56:56It would become a museum, you hope?
0:56:56 > 0:57:00- Yes.- A Gilbert and George centre, it's called.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02A little bit like the Soane's Museum or something.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05Do you care about what people think when you are gone?
0:57:07 > 0:57:09We are not in charge of that.
0:57:09 > 0:57:13We try not to have opinions about things we cannot affect.
0:57:13 > 0:57:15It is one of our main rules.
0:57:15 > 0:57:19Because in some way, we are control freaks.
0:57:19 > 0:57:23If not invitation cards, the publicity, the design of the exhibition,
0:57:23 > 0:57:25is all done by us in advance.
0:57:25 > 0:57:31But all art is an attempt at some kind of immortality, isn't it?
0:57:31 > 0:57:34- Oh yes.- We believe in that.
0:57:34 > 0:57:38We think it's extraordinary that you just say "Charles Dickens" -
0:57:38 > 0:57:42whether you have read a book or not, something fills your head.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44That is the man speaking from the grave.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46"William Blake".
0:57:46 > 0:57:48Another mood comes in.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50That's the power of culture.
0:57:50 > 0:57:56That is why people in cultivated countries tend not to kill each other.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58It's a civilised way of being.
0:57:58 > 0:58:03If you go to way country where there is no modern art gallery, no concert hall, no public library,
0:58:03 > 0:58:05you will almost certainly need to hire a bodyguard.
0:58:05 > 0:58:08You will see dead bodies on the way from the airport to the city.
0:58:08 > 0:58:11I think that was the last word.
0:58:11 > 0:58:13Gilbert and George, thank you very much.
0:58:13 > 0:58:15- Thank you.- Thank you.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:58:35 > 0:58:37E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk