0:00:24 > 0:00:28Mark Knopfler was once an English lecturer and a journalist.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31And he has left to his successors in those professions
0:00:31 > 0:00:33a perfect definition of what irony means -
0:00:33 > 0:00:36starting a band called Dire Straits
0:00:36 > 0:00:40that became one of the most profitable acts in musical history.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43The group, whose hits included Sultans Of Swing,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Money For Nothing and Romeo And Juliet,
0:00:46 > 0:00:50originally comprised Knopfler as guitarist and singer/songwriter,
0:00:50 > 0:00:55Pick Withers, John Illsley and David Knopfler, Mark's brother.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59He left the group before the super-selling Brothers In Arms in 1985
0:00:59 > 0:01:03helped to launch the then revolutionary listening method of CDs.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07The remaining band dissolved in 1995
0:01:07 > 0:01:10and Mark Knopfler's solo work has included numerous albums,
0:01:10 > 0:01:14several movie soundtracks, from Local Hero to Wag The Dog,
0:01:14 > 0:01:18and working as a producer and tour support act with Bob Dylan.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26In one of your most popular songs, Money For Nothing, an ordinary guy in a store, he sees a rock star
0:01:26 > 0:01:29on TV and he expresses contempt for him.
0:01:29 > 0:01:34Have you ever at any point thought of yourself as a rock star?
0:01:34 > 0:01:37Well, that's...that's one of things to...
0:01:37 > 0:01:40Certainly one of the more unhealthy aspects
0:01:40 > 0:01:42of the thing.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44To...
0:01:44 > 0:01:47Obviously, it's what you want when you're a youngster, you know.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50You're thinking in terms of trying to get there.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52You spend a lot of time getting there
0:01:52 > 0:01:57and then you have to make a judgment as you...as you grow up.
0:01:57 > 0:01:58And, um...
0:01:59 > 0:02:01Yes, I think...
0:02:01 > 0:02:03I think of...
0:02:03 > 0:02:06I had a great time with the band, and that's what we...
0:02:06 > 0:02:10That's what we were aiming for, I suppose.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15And...I would recommend success to anybody.
0:02:15 > 0:02:20I mean, I think it's fine. It's given me this studio, for instance,
0:02:20 > 0:02:22which is just my big paint box, and I love it.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24I love the place.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28So, for many, many reasons, it's been...it's been fine.
0:02:28 > 0:02:33And it's enabled me also to be able to have freedom in the way that I work now.
0:02:33 > 0:02:38Although it's always fascinated me, that song, because it's almost as if...
0:02:38 > 0:02:40I know it's based on something you actually saw,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44but it's almost as if this guy is standing outside and he's commenting
0:02:44 > 0:02:47on you, in a way, and then you later use that
0:02:47 > 0:02:48with heavy irony.
0:02:48 > 0:02:53I see Money For Nothing as the title for the Best Of collection.
0:02:53 > 0:02:59And there was a kind of slight unease about the whole business to me, in that.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01I mean, you've never... We've seen people taken over by it.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04You've always seemed to have that slight scepticism about it.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10Well, yes. I mean, obviously, it's ripe for fun,
0:03:10 > 0:03:11for having fun with.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14The whole thing is ludicrous, in many ways.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18But the guy himself was a meat-head.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22You know? And he was just doing some deliveries to the shop.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25# Look at them yo-yos That's the way you do it
0:03:26 > 0:03:29# You play the guitar on the MTV
0:03:30 > 0:03:33# That ain't working That's the way you do it... #
0:03:33 > 0:03:35He didn't even know I was there,
0:03:35 > 0:03:39and I found myself spying on him behind a row of microwaves.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41Because what he was saying was so classic.
0:03:41 > 0:03:47And I don't think, if I'd been seen to be...gazing incredulously at him,
0:03:47 > 0:03:51then some floor manager would have come up and said, you know...
0:03:51 > 0:03:52"Back out to the truck!"
0:03:55 > 0:03:56But...
0:03:56 > 0:04:02But actually, I had to go and ask for some paper and a pen,
0:04:02 > 0:04:06and I sat down on the kitchen display unit in the front window and started writing it all down.
0:04:07 > 0:04:08Some of those lines...
0:04:09 > 0:04:10Oh...
0:04:12 > 0:04:15And that's like a situation song,
0:04:15 > 0:04:20where conditions all seem to be converging to create the song,
0:04:20 > 0:04:22just like Sultans Of Swing was,
0:04:22 > 0:04:26or when you're in a place and there are a number of things going on
0:04:26 > 0:04:28and, um...
0:04:30 > 0:04:31..and...
0:04:31 > 0:04:35somehow it flags up for you. It resonates with you, in a way.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38And off you go.
0:04:38 > 0:04:44But both those songs - Money For Nothing and Sultans Of Swing - they have real speech in them,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47which is your reporter side. We'll talk about this later,
0:04:47 > 0:04:49but you were a newspaper reporter.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52But the guy in the store - you took it down in shorthand,
0:04:52 > 0:04:55which journalists don't have any more, but your generation still do.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00Well, shorthand was something I learned on a journalism course
0:05:00 > 0:05:03and I found that when I got to the Evening Post in Leeds,
0:05:03 > 0:05:06who offered me a job when I was a teenager,
0:05:06 > 0:05:08that they...
0:05:08 > 0:05:14They sent me down to the court, to the town hall in Leeds.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16I did a lot of court reporting there,
0:05:16 > 0:05:19and that was a big life lesson.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21But court reporting is pretty serious, isn't it,
0:05:21 > 0:05:24because if you get one word wrong from the evidence,
0:05:24 > 0:05:26you are technically in contempt of court.
0:05:26 > 0:05:27I suppose...
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Well, I must have been in contempt plenty of times!
0:05:30 > 0:05:31Um...
0:05:31 > 0:05:34But it was...it was a, um...
0:05:34 > 0:05:36It was a...
0:05:36 > 0:05:39It was an interesting time.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43The news editor used to call me up. They used to call out into the newsroom,
0:05:43 > 0:05:45"Mark Knopfler, come over!"
0:05:45 > 0:05:49And you'd go up there and he'd say, "There's been a bloody accident.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55"Go bloody down there, get a bloody taxi. Get the bloody name, get the bloody age, get the bloody address,
0:05:55 > 0:05:56"get your bloody hair cut."
0:06:00 > 0:06:03So, your shorthand... When you were in that store... So, the famous line,
0:06:03 > 0:06:08"Look at that yo-yo - that's the way to do it, he plays the guitar on the MTV" -
0:06:08 > 0:06:12they're pretty much verbatim, those bits of speech, are they?
0:06:13 > 0:06:14Well...
0:06:14 > 0:06:17In fact, he said the best stuff.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19I wrote the worst stuff.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23You know, "You play the guitar on the MTV" - I mean, I wrote that.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28But he said things like, "Maybe get a blister on your little finger"!
0:06:31 > 0:06:34And "What's that - Hawaiian noises?"
0:06:34 > 0:06:36# What's that? Hawaiian noises
0:06:37 > 0:06:39# You're banging on the bongos like a chimpanzee
0:06:39 > 0:06:41# That ain't working
0:06:42 > 0:06:43# That's the way you do it
0:06:43 > 0:06:47# Get your money for nothing Get your chicks for free
0:06:48 > 0:06:50# We gotta install microwave ovens
0:06:51 > 0:06:53# Custom kitchen deliveries... #
0:06:53 > 0:06:55He was very entertaining.
0:06:55 > 0:07:00But I'm not so sure whether I actually write those kind of smarty-pants songs any more.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05As I got older, I think I was much more tending towards preferring
0:07:05 > 0:07:07a song like You Are My Sunshine,
0:07:07 > 0:07:12which is very, for want of a better word, straightforward.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14All those... Right through -
0:07:14 > 0:07:18we're going to talk about your whole career... But right through the career,
0:07:18 > 0:07:22story songs, I mean little short stories, incidents...
0:07:22 > 0:07:26There's a lot of narrative in your songs right across your career.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Yeah, I've probably done far too much of that.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31I...I think, um...
0:07:32 > 0:07:37It can be a kind of a bonsai thing, where you're taking a...
0:07:37 > 0:07:40For instance, in a song like Sailing To Philadelphia,
0:07:40 > 0:07:43for instance, where I'm thinking of miniaturising...
0:07:44 > 0:07:47..something that's a massive book.
0:07:47 > 0:07:52I mean, the book is as big as a radiator. It's got hundreds and hundreds of pages.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55I just happened to be reading it
0:07:55 > 0:08:00and got interested in the two guys, the two characters
0:08:00 > 0:08:02and...
0:08:02 > 0:08:05Here's another thing about convergence,
0:08:05 > 0:08:07where what Mason and Dixon did
0:08:07 > 0:08:12was they sailed to Philadelphia by boat, obviously, from the west coast of England,
0:08:12 > 0:08:15to do a job, actually. Just a...
0:08:15 > 0:08:19It was just a dispute between two families,
0:08:19 > 0:08:22essentially two states, about a border.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24And...
0:08:24 > 0:08:30Of course, the Mason-Dixon Line then symbolised a great deal more than that
0:08:30 > 0:08:37later on, but I was sailing into Philadelphia through the clouds on a plane.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41# I am Jeremiah Dixon
0:08:41 > 0:08:44# I am a Geordie boy
0:08:45 > 0:08:49# A glass of wine with you, sir And the ladies I'll enjoy... #
0:08:49 > 0:08:53And thinking about... It's only really been a very short time
0:08:53 > 0:08:56since Mason and Dixon sailed up into here
0:08:56 > 0:08:59and look what's happened in this time.
0:08:59 > 0:09:05Um, but when you reduce a story like that to three verses or something,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08you really are chopping away at it.
0:09:08 > 0:09:13So probably that's one of the interesting things to me about songwriting
0:09:13 > 0:09:16and going back to looking at it again,
0:09:16 > 0:09:20so at any given time now, I'll be doing that with about 50 songs.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23And the question that is always asked about songs,
0:09:23 > 0:09:28even when different people writing the words and the music,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31is the order - which comes first?
0:09:31 > 0:09:33For you, it can be either, presumably?
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Yeah, it can be.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39But I find myself looking at the lyrics, probably...
0:09:39 > 0:09:43and wanting them to...to...
0:09:43 > 0:09:48wanting them to be able to stand up on their own, in many ways.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50I think that's probably shifted a little bit.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Sometimes there is a simultaneous thing.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55And...
0:09:55 > 0:10:00And with some forms and some, say, blues or things like that,
0:10:00 > 0:10:02it can be much more immediate
0:10:02 > 0:10:06and, you know, the musical thing and the lyrical thing will happen
0:10:06 > 0:10:08much more together, very often.
0:10:08 > 0:10:13And that then makes you realise that there is no formula per se,
0:10:13 > 0:10:16and if there was a formula, I promise you I'd tell you what it is.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19For both kinds of songs.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23And do you ever have a lyric awaiting a tune or a tune awaiting a lyric?
0:10:23 > 0:10:25Oh, yeah.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28That, again, can be part of the problem.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30For instance, I remember when
0:10:30 > 0:10:34I was touring at the time with the band
0:10:34 > 0:10:38in the early days, when John Lennon was murdered,
0:10:38 > 0:10:43and I was being pestered by this, um...
0:10:43 > 0:10:46very odd German guy in a raincoat,
0:10:46 > 0:10:48specs and briefcase,
0:10:48 > 0:10:49and...
0:10:49 > 0:10:53A very, very, very strange man who would be at the airport when you'd arrive,
0:10:53 > 0:10:55he'd be at you hotel when you got there.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59You'd get to the place where you were playing, and he was there.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01When you went in and when you went out.
0:11:01 > 0:11:02And, um...
0:11:02 > 0:11:04his name was Rudiger.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08And I wrote a song called Rudiger at the time.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11And, in fact, I never changed the words,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14but the music just didn't want to materialise.
0:11:14 > 0:11:20And I think I waited about 13 years with that lyric before...
0:11:20 > 0:11:22And I'd actually left...
0:11:22 > 0:11:26I'd started going solo in about '95,
0:11:26 > 0:11:28and I think it just came together then, really.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32I was trying to move forward a bit musically.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35So who was Rudiger? Did you ever...?
0:11:35 > 0:11:37He was this German man.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41But what was his role? Why was he always at hotels and airports?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44- I'm sorry. He was an autograph... - Oh, I see.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Yeah, he was an autograph hound.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49Has he ever responded to the song?
0:11:49 > 0:11:51I met him subsequently
0:11:51 > 0:11:56and I said, "Well, what do you think now, Rudiger? You know there's been this song about you."
0:11:56 > 0:11:58He said, "Ah, no, you are the star."
0:11:58 > 0:12:01Yeah, but he's a very odd man.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05So that's another of those given songs -
0:12:05 > 0:12:09things that happen around you that can turn into a song?
0:12:09 > 0:12:14Yeah, it can. It can be something that you say. It can be something that you read.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16It can be a fragment.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18And sometimes I think,
0:12:18 > 0:12:22I actually think now, that you don't really know why,
0:12:22 > 0:12:25what it is that has led you there.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28You're feeling your way sometimes.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31And you only find out afterwards.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34I always wonder about this with people who have written a lot of songs.
0:12:34 > 0:12:39Your, um...predictive powers as to what the response will be.
0:12:39 > 0:12:44I mean, the ones that go huge, have you generally - you wouldn't have known the exact response -
0:12:44 > 0:12:47but have you generally thought, "I've got one here"?
0:12:50 > 0:12:51No.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54I'm not so conscious of that at all.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57I think you're just making another record.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02And all I want to do is try to write a good song and try to make a good record.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04That's all that I want to do.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06That is literally all that I really want to do.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10At any time, if you ask me, "What are you trying to do?"
0:13:10 > 0:13:12"What do you think you're doing?" in other words!
0:13:12 > 0:13:14"What are you doing?!"
0:13:14 > 0:13:17I'm trying to write a good song and trying to make a good record.
0:13:17 > 0:13:18That's it.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21And going in to fail.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23You know, you go into your...
0:13:23 > 0:13:26I go to write a...
0:13:26 > 0:13:28I open the laptop, you know,
0:13:28 > 0:13:30in a way, to fail. I'm used to it.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32What...what...
0:13:32 > 0:13:37what happens is...I don't panic about that.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39I just let it be.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42And come back to it and have another look.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45I'm not madly disciplined that way.
0:13:45 > 0:13:50Love Over Gold is unusual in having only five tracks.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53That was the album of the epic song, wasn't it,
0:13:53 > 0:13:58because they range in length from six and a half to 14 minutes on Telegraph Road.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02Was that...? I mean, that was a conscious decision to go...?
0:14:02 > 0:14:06No. I remember once saying to an engineer in New York...
0:14:06 > 0:14:10I said, "Tell me, why are my songs so long?"
0:14:10 > 0:14:13He must have been eating a sandwich at the time,
0:14:13 > 0:14:16and he looked at me and he said, "You got a lot to say."
0:14:16 > 0:14:17Er...
0:14:18 > 0:14:22We'll talk more about CDs and Brothers In Arms and so on,
0:14:22 > 0:14:26but famously, it was a key CD, Brothers In Arms,
0:14:26 > 0:14:30in the technological revolution of that time.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33There have been so many since - downloads, and, um...
0:14:33 > 0:14:40the reluctance of a generation of music lovers to actually pay for the material.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44Are you glad that you started when you did,
0:14:44 > 0:14:46rather than, say, now?
0:14:47 > 0:14:52I think it's always been hard to be an actor or to be a writer
0:14:52 > 0:14:55or to, you know, get going in music...
0:14:57 > 0:14:59And I don't think that'll ever change.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02It's always going to be an overcrowded area.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05But there's one thing that I do know about all this.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08It's that everybody gets their shot.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16If you've got the motor to get your songs going somehow...
0:15:16 > 0:15:19That's all I wanted. It was looking for a little platform
0:15:19 > 0:15:21just to get the songs going.
0:15:24 > 0:15:25And, if you can't get a gig,
0:15:25 > 0:15:27then you kind of organise your own.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31And you just start from home.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33And if people want to see you...
0:15:33 > 0:15:36If people want to watch it and be part of it,
0:15:36 > 0:15:38then the little queue starts to grow,
0:15:38 > 0:15:42grows down the stairs, then into the street and down the road and round the corner.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46And things just pick up and carry on.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48And...
0:15:48 > 0:15:50it's like a snowball.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54And if you've got that, whatever that is...
0:15:54 > 0:15:58It's got nothing to do with good looks.
0:15:58 > 0:15:59It has to do with something else.
0:16:02 > 0:16:07That's how it did start, whereas now, notoriously, people can go on the X Factor or a similar show
0:16:07 > 0:16:10and they can be Number One by Christmas,
0:16:10 > 0:16:13within a few weeks.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16Now, musicians of your generation differ on this.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20Some get fantastically angry about things such as the X Factor,
0:16:20 > 0:16:24and others are just mildly amused and watch with their children.
0:16:24 > 0:16:25Where are you on that spectrum?
0:16:28 > 0:16:30I disappear when that stuff's around.
0:16:30 > 0:16:31You know? I just...
0:16:31 > 0:16:33go in the other room.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Er...the kids watch it sometimes.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38But, um...
0:16:39 > 0:16:42There's always been...
0:16:42 > 0:16:46To me, there's always been bubblegum. There was...
0:16:48 > 0:16:50..in decades gone by.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53There was always that aspect of entertainment.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56And so I'm never too bothered by it.
0:16:56 > 0:17:01But what I am bothered about by those shows
0:17:01 > 0:17:06is that it seems to be conveying that it's great to be famous.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09You could be talking to some kids, and they say,
0:17:09 > 0:17:13"It must be great to be famous". And I say, "Would you like to be famous?" And they say,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16"Oh, yeah, it must be dead cool for be famous!" And you say, "What for?"
0:17:16 > 0:17:19"Famous for what?"
0:17:19 > 0:17:21And they don't quite know.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25What that's perpetuating is a situation that's completely the wrong way round.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Fame is actually a by-product.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33If you can think of anything good about it, I'd like you to tell me what it is.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37But rather than finding what you love and trying to be good at it,
0:17:37 > 0:17:41there just seems to be this instant fix.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45And I think that's a disaster.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49And I think that those shows are...
0:17:49 > 0:17:54Quite apart from all the other issues of manipulating poor people
0:17:54 > 0:17:57and doing all the things that, um...
0:17:57 > 0:18:00rubbish television does, you know?
0:18:00 > 0:18:03It's not so much different if all the tears
0:18:03 > 0:18:09and all the taking people who are quite clearly not terribly good at what they're doing
0:18:09 > 0:18:13and making them fail in front of... Taking people almost there and...
0:18:13 > 0:18:16And all this so-called "good television"
0:18:16 > 0:18:20I think is just really, really detrimental.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23And sometimes - you say it's bubblegum music and TV, and it is -
0:18:23 > 0:18:28but sometimes they're using the songs of great songwriters. I mean, Leonard Cohen.
0:18:28 > 0:18:29Yeah. It's funny, actually,
0:18:29 > 0:18:32because...
0:18:32 > 0:18:37Yeah, I saw a lad...happened to be, just because the kids were watching.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41- You see, you do watch it secretly, don't you?- No, I was actually going by!
0:18:41 > 0:18:44And I was, "That's a Bob Dylan song. That's one of Bob's songs."
0:18:44 > 0:18:45It was a lad singing.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49And I just wondered how many people in the studio audience,
0:18:49 > 0:18:55or even the people working on the show, actually knew...it was a Bob song.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57And...
0:18:57 > 0:19:00Because that's where we've arrived at now.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03Have you had yours done on those shows?
0:19:03 > 0:19:09I never let them use them. Whenever they want to do something, I've just never let them use it.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14This is another interesting area about songwriters - how much control you have,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17because you don't have total control.
0:19:17 > 0:19:22I mean, various things happen. There are adverts, aren't there, and the so-called "songtages" -
0:19:22 > 0:19:24where at the end of Casualty, or...Holby City,
0:19:24 > 0:19:29the characters all walk around slowly to a song in the background.
0:19:29 > 0:19:31And then there are the talent shows.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35But you don't have total control over what they do with your songs, do you?
0:19:35 > 0:19:37No, not always.
0:19:37 > 0:19:38No, you can't...
0:19:38 > 0:19:42If a Lithuanian band wants to record one of your songs
0:19:42 > 0:19:46and they've rewritten the lyrics but they're about something else,
0:19:46 > 0:19:49again, that's not something that I'm very keen on.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51- Has that happened?- Oh, yeah.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53Well, not Lithuanian!
0:19:53 > 0:19:55I don't know why I said it!
0:19:57 > 0:20:00But, um...you can't stop people playing your stuff,
0:20:00 > 0:20:02and you can't stop... That's fine.
0:20:02 > 0:20:08You have to make decisions... I have to make decisions every day about...or every other day...about
0:20:08 > 0:20:13whether you give sync licences for people to use your stuff for other purposes.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17And I think it has changed somewhat over the years,
0:20:17 > 0:20:21where now, because the world has become so much more corporate,
0:20:21 > 0:20:24and because, um...
0:20:24 > 0:20:28people are looking for ways to exist now,
0:20:28 > 0:20:30just to get out on the airwaves.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34I think people now are much more liable -
0:20:34 > 0:20:40creative people, writers - are much more liable to accept that kind of exposure now.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43Do you have rules about commercials?
0:20:43 > 0:20:46We used to have. We used to have things about alcohol,
0:20:46 > 0:20:49we used to have things about tobacco.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51I can't remember what else.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55# Privateering
0:20:57 > 0:20:59# Privateering
0:20:59 > 0:21:01# We will go... #
0:21:01 > 0:21:07If a beer company or somebody wanted to use a song, I'd probably think about it for at least ten seconds
0:21:07 > 0:21:09before accepting.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12To just get the stuff out there?
0:21:12 > 0:21:15Just to get the stuff out there, yeah.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18And also, something like that, for instance,
0:21:18 > 0:21:21I'm not saying I WOULD do it,
0:21:21 > 0:21:26but something like that, if you want to think about it in solid terms,
0:21:26 > 0:21:30that would pay for your trucking on a whole tour,
0:21:30 > 0:21:35or it could certainly pay for your ground transport.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38It could certainly pay for your band,
0:21:38 > 0:21:40or a good bit of your band,
0:21:40 > 0:21:45or what your band would cost you for that three months of touring or whatever it would be.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48So that would be a heck of thing.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51That would be big sync these days.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54For somebody who was touring
0:21:54 > 0:21:57and looking at the enormous costs of touring,
0:21:57 > 0:22:02I think these days you'd probably find somebody accepting something like that.
0:22:02 > 0:22:07Because you simply can't make the kind of money out of recordings that you did in your day, for example.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09No, you simply can't.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12And...it's the same as my studio.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15My studio's obviously going to lose a lot of money
0:22:15 > 0:22:17by being such a great studio.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21So the only way that it can exist is
0:22:21 > 0:22:24by being supported somehow.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Sailing To Philadelphia we mentioned earlier.
0:22:28 > 0:22:32I've always been very interested in this song. It's clearly biographical.
0:22:32 > 0:22:33I think it's also autobiographical,
0:22:33 > 0:22:37Because - I was amazed to discover this, I only knew it from your song -
0:22:37 > 0:22:40Jeremiah Dixon, one of the architects of the Mason-Dixon Line,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43solving that Pennsylvania dispute,
0:22:43 > 0:22:49was a Geordie, who, um... And that clearly, that's a personal identification, isn't it?
0:22:49 > 0:22:51As we can hear in your...
0:22:51 > 0:22:54Yeah, I liked that I could relate to him.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57The other guy - I heard James Taylor's voice.
0:22:57 > 0:23:02I thought he was perfect. As soon as he started singing that character, there he was.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06# But I had other dreams instead
0:23:07 > 0:23:10# This baker's boy from the West Country
0:23:12 > 0:23:14# Would join the Royal Society
0:23:18 > 0:23:22# We are sailing to Philadelphia... #
0:23:24 > 0:23:26Again, a very good example of the story song.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30It is like the short story. It has different voices
0:23:30 > 0:23:31and all the rest of it.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34Yes. Yeah.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38It's one of those character songs.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Character songs, and a place.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43It's again, looking out of the plane,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46reading, having the book...
0:23:46 > 0:23:48So there's a...
0:23:48 > 0:23:50Things converge...and there it is.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27You're technically Scottish. You could have played football for Scotland,
0:24:27 > 0:24:29though it's probably too late now.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31But in every other way, it's the northeast, isn't it?
0:24:31 > 0:24:33It's the northeast, yeah.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35My dad was working in Glasgow,
0:24:35 > 0:24:38so I lived the first eight years up there.
0:24:38 > 0:24:43And, um...and I'm glad that it was, in many ways,
0:24:43 > 0:24:47because I probably heard quite a lot of Scottish music.
0:24:47 > 0:24:51But then you would in the northeast anyway, because
0:24:51 > 0:24:56my mum's family are all Geordies, and her brothers were big into things Scottish then,
0:24:56 > 0:25:01and they wore kilts, and joined the Army and played the bagpipes,
0:25:01 > 0:25:02and all of those things.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06So there was a big Scottish influence in the northeast of England, anyway,
0:25:06 > 0:25:10and there's always been a big tie-up between the Geordies and the Scots.
0:25:10 > 0:25:17There are a lot of Scots came down to Tyneside for the manufacturing and all the rest of it.
0:25:17 > 0:25:19So there was a lot of movement of labour around.
0:25:19 > 0:25:25And the whole Geordie culture and language, which is immortalised in your song Why Aye Man,
0:25:25 > 0:25:29but that whole... My grandparents were from the northeast,
0:25:29 > 0:25:33and it's an extraordinary language. I remember when I was first taken there and heard it.
0:25:33 > 0:25:38But that's partly what Why Aye Man is about. But it is fantastically distinctive, isn't it?
0:25:38 > 0:25:40It is.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43And it beats me why people can't understand it!
0:25:45 > 0:25:48People gaze at them... Incomprehension.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50And, actually, whenever I go up there,
0:25:50 > 0:25:52I actually became more...
0:25:52 > 0:25:57In five minutes, I think I become slightly more Geordie than I was when I...
0:25:57 > 0:26:00You know, an hour before that.
0:26:00 > 0:26:06So has your...? As you travelled south, your accent, um, changed, did it?
0:26:06 > 0:26:09If we'd met you when you were a schoolboy,
0:26:09 > 0:26:12- you would have been significantly more Geordie?- Probably.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17Just as we are, when I was a little boy in Glasgow,
0:26:17 > 0:26:19I was broad Scots, yeah.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22So...so that, er...
0:26:22 > 0:26:24That's the way we are!
0:26:24 > 0:26:30Your rather was an architect. He was a political exile and emigre,
0:26:30 > 0:26:35but at what point, growing up, did you understand his history and what had happened?
0:26:35 > 0:26:37Oh, well, from very, very early on.
0:26:37 > 0:26:43I think it's great to have somebody in your family who has another perspective.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45And, um...
0:26:45 > 0:26:52but then, as you go through life, you realise that everybody has other perspectives.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55It's only very few people live in complete complacency
0:26:55 > 0:26:57and don't question anything.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00Because you're either too fat or you're too small
0:27:00 > 0:27:04or you're too thin...and you go to school and you get bullied for something or other.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07Um...and you'll...
0:27:07 > 0:27:11you could have a speech defect, or...
0:27:11 > 0:27:12Who knows what it is?
0:27:12 > 0:27:15And it's all good, because it's all sensitising,
0:27:15 > 0:27:19or it's all good for creative people.
0:27:19 > 0:27:20I think.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25Because it makes you observe instead of just accept.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28I think it gives you another...
0:27:29 > 0:27:30..another eye, somehow.
0:27:31 > 0:27:35And presumably, among the Charltons, the Robsons, those kind of names,
0:27:35 > 0:27:38your name stood out on school registers, did it?
0:27:38 > 0:27:39It absolutely would do.
0:27:39 > 0:27:46And it's funny being down in London now and looking at the names at our daughters' schools,
0:27:46 > 0:27:50and it's just like the United Nations.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54And really exotic.
0:27:54 > 0:27:59And, in fact, my name looks positively anonymous
0:27:59 > 0:28:02in there, really. One of the more quiet ones, you know?
0:28:02 > 0:28:06There's lot of names with really enormous flourishes
0:28:06 > 0:28:08on these school lists down here.
0:28:08 > 0:28:10But growing up in Newcastle,
0:28:10 > 0:28:15it was...it was a talking point, presumably, your name, was it?
0:28:15 > 0:28:17Oh, I don't think so, really.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21Not too much. I think there were a couple of kids with foreign names at school -
0:28:21 > 0:28:23Polish names, and so on and so forth.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27The Scots and the Geordies are a really friendly people.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30And you only notice that when...
0:28:30 > 0:28:33- You come south?- You come south.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35Or the southwest
0:28:35 > 0:28:41and out there you realise that people are more self-contained.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44And, you know...
0:28:44 > 0:28:47there will be various theories about all this.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50There are nice people everywhere, of course.
0:28:50 > 0:28:52We all know this.
0:28:52 > 0:28:57There's one thing that I think that my mum certainly
0:28:57 > 0:29:00mentions every time I go to see her -
0:29:00 > 0:29:06that she...because she came south when my sister starting having a family,
0:29:06 > 0:29:11she would miss the, what she said, the canniness of the people in the north.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15That's a great northeast word, canny, isn't it?
0:29:15 > 0:29:20Which is a great tribute, a great compliment, to be canny.
0:29:21 > 0:29:22Yeah. "He's a canny lad."
0:29:26 > 0:29:29On your vast global world tours,
0:29:29 > 0:29:31you're played Hungary, presumably, have you?
0:29:32 > 0:29:34Yes.
0:29:34 > 0:29:36That's right.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40And my dad was expelled from Hungary, actually, for political reasons.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43It must have been bizarre.
0:29:43 > 0:29:47Because of your family background, when you played Hungary as a musician,
0:29:47 > 0:29:52presumably it felt like there was some kind of emotional aspect to that?
0:29:52 > 0:29:54Not really.
0:29:54 > 0:29:58No, it didn't affect me in any way, shape or form.
0:29:58 > 0:30:02It struck me as being quite amusing, in a way,
0:30:02 > 0:30:05- that, you know...- They kicked your dad out.- Kicked my dad out.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07And, um...
0:30:09 > 0:30:10And, um...
0:30:10 > 0:30:12making some sandwiches for me, yeah.
0:30:12 > 0:30:16Did he talk a lot about what happened?
0:30:16 > 0:30:17No.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19No. He just got on with his work.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21He didn't really talk about it very much,
0:30:21 > 0:30:25but he did... He was a...
0:30:25 > 0:30:28Back then, he was a...
0:30:28 > 0:30:32a young firebrand, a communist.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35But of course, millions of people were.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38You know, they sort of saw communism as being...
0:30:38 > 0:30:45And being a Marxist was maybe to see the only solution to the problems of the world.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47That this was going to be the big...
0:30:48 > 0:30:51This was going to save the world from all the horrors of war
0:30:51 > 0:30:54and all the other injustices that were going on.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58And, of course, as soon as he realised what Stalin was up to,
0:30:58 > 0:31:01he and hundreds of thousands of others
0:31:01 > 0:31:04just handed their cards in, and he was done with it.
0:31:04 > 0:31:08Um... Once he saw what the truth was
0:31:08 > 0:31:11about how this...the revolution was...
0:31:11 > 0:31:16How it was playing out, you know, with Stalin and the rest.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18So, you know,
0:31:18 > 0:31:21he had no illusions about it after that.
0:31:21 > 0:31:27Is the Jewish part of your identity through him, is that significant to you?
0:31:27 > 0:31:28No.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31I don't know anything about it.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34Because he was pretty much a Marxist atheist,
0:31:34 > 0:31:38he never bothered, and he married out of his...out of the religion.
0:31:38 > 0:31:43And so I never...I never really knew anything about it.
0:31:43 > 0:31:48The first time I actually went into a synagogue was for my accountant's son's bar mitzvah.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Um...
0:31:50 > 0:31:54and then the second time was for his daughter's wedding.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58So I've never... It's not something I'm familiar with.
0:31:58 > 0:32:02And you didn't feel a great sense of homecoming on either of those occasions when you went?
0:32:02 > 0:32:04No, not at all.
0:32:06 > 0:32:11The '50s... Lots of books now about the '50s, and it's presented as this appalling, drab decade
0:32:11 > 0:32:15in which Britain was recovering from the wounds of the Second World War
0:32:15 > 0:32:19and it was all kind of horrible and dull. And it was your childhood.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23Were you conscious at the time of how depressing it was supposed to be?
0:32:23 > 0:32:27I was. I do remember the '50s as being a rather odd period,
0:32:27 > 0:32:30because it was rather...it was...
0:32:30 > 0:32:34I mean, the girls would wear twin sets and pearls - they'd dress like their mothers.
0:32:34 > 0:32:36And a lot of the boys did too,
0:32:36 > 0:32:37but I just kind of missed...
0:32:37 > 0:32:39What, dressed like their mothers?!
0:32:39 > 0:32:41And, er...
0:32:42 > 0:32:44And...
0:32:44 > 0:32:47But thankfully, I was too young for the...
0:32:47 > 0:32:50I'm glad, in a way, that I missed all the trad jazz.
0:32:50 > 0:32:54Thankfully, I hit rock and roll just at the right time.
0:32:54 > 0:32:58The first guitar that I pointed to and said that I wanted was a white plastic one
0:32:58 > 0:33:00with a picture of Elvis in the head of it.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03It was probably more of a toy than a proper guitar.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05So, um...
0:33:05 > 0:33:07I never got that.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10And the guitar, it's been such a huge part of your life -
0:33:10 > 0:33:12that first guitar.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16Where did that instinct come from to want a guitar?
0:33:18 > 0:33:22Yeah, I think that's where it begins.
0:33:22 > 0:33:23It's a really instinctive thing...
0:33:23 > 0:33:26"This is for me."
0:33:26 > 0:33:28And, er...
0:33:28 > 0:33:31- But you'd heard... It was from hearing guitar...- Yeah.
0:33:31 > 0:33:36It was probably from hearing it, hearing the freedom of that music.
0:33:36 > 0:33:41And it would probably be on songs like Freight Train and things like that,
0:33:41 > 0:33:43where it was...
0:33:43 > 0:33:46And I didn't know what the names of these things were.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48I think they called it skiffle originally,
0:33:48 > 0:33:52in England, but they didn't call it that in the States.
0:33:52 > 0:33:53So...
0:33:53 > 0:33:58er...and so, really, country and western kind of songs
0:33:58 > 0:34:01and...
0:34:01 > 0:34:04and blues. A mixture of blues and country.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12# One evening as the sun went down
0:34:12 > 0:34:15# And the jungle fire was burning
0:34:15 > 0:34:18# Down a track came a hobo hiking
0:34:18 > 0:34:20# And he said Boys, I'm not turning... #
0:34:20 > 0:34:22But I didn't know what those words were.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24I mean, I would be a tiny little thing.
0:34:24 > 0:34:27Even crawling around on the floor,
0:34:27 > 0:34:31listening to Listen With Mother on the radio every day,
0:34:31 > 0:34:35you'd hear songs like, um...
0:34:35 > 0:34:37Big Rock Candy Mountain.
0:34:37 > 0:34:39I mean, I still know all the words.
0:34:39 > 0:34:42# On the birds and the bees And the cigarette trees
0:34:42 > 0:34:44# The lemonade springs Where the bluebird sings
0:34:44 > 0:34:47# In the Big Rock Candy Mountains... #
0:34:48 > 0:34:52And I really remember really liking it, but I didn't know what a hobo...
0:34:52 > 0:34:54I mean, I didn't know it was a hobo song.
0:34:54 > 0:35:00And I didn't care. I think when you're young like that, you don't care whether a song's happy or sad.
0:35:00 > 0:35:01You just like it.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04Or the sound of guitars on.
0:35:04 > 0:35:08And pointing to that first guitar ultimately led
0:35:08 > 0:35:15to being selected as the 27th greatest guitar player of all time in one poll.
0:35:15 > 0:35:19But did you...? I mean, clearly you are a natural guitarist,
0:35:19 > 0:35:22but did you take to it immediately when you started playing?
0:35:23 > 0:35:25No. I think it's quite hard.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28You've got to make your fingers go into places they don't want to go.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30I think you've really got to want to do it.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34It's a hard instrument to learn. I've taught people to play,
0:35:34 > 0:35:36quite a lot of people.
0:35:36 > 0:35:37But it's...it's...
0:35:37 > 0:35:39it's really...it's not easy,
0:35:39 > 0:35:43and I don't find it's terribly easy NOW, necessarily, to move forward.
0:35:43 > 0:35:48You're still making your fingers go places where they don't want to go.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51If you want to move forward,
0:35:51 > 0:35:56being a songwriter doesn't move me forward very much
0:35:56 > 0:35:58on the instrument.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01If I'd had to live by the instrument,
0:36:01 > 0:36:04I would have made sure I'd gone a lot further.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08If you want to... I mean, I think the band...
0:36:08 > 0:36:13are very understanding and quite forgiving of me as a musician, really,
0:36:13 > 0:36:15because that's what they do,
0:36:15 > 0:36:17that's their instrument.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19That's what they do.
0:36:19 > 0:36:21And of course, they do it so well, but...
0:36:21 > 0:36:24They probably let me off quite lightly.
0:36:24 > 0:36:28"Oh, well, he's a songwriter. He can make a mistake."
0:36:33 > 0:36:35..Eventually leading to an eight-liner.
0:36:35 > 0:36:36I suppose so.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39I did make an effort to try and improve...
0:36:42 > 0:36:45..once I realised I was getting into this thing seriously.
0:36:45 > 0:36:50I was in this world, and I didn't really know what I was doing.
0:36:50 > 0:36:56I'd got the songs going, but I didn't really feel as though I was any kind of a player
0:36:56 > 0:36:58or knew, really, what it was about.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01I was just this little Brit strummer, really,
0:37:01 > 0:37:03who was writing songs,
0:37:03 > 0:37:06but I didn't really feel as though I'd got very far.
0:37:06 > 0:37:13And so I did make a concerted effort to try to figure out a bit more about it all.
0:37:13 > 0:37:18And I think now I might occasionally get onto that...
0:37:18 > 0:37:21music thing, but it's a...
0:37:21 > 0:37:24But the songwriting keeps interfering with that.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26The songwriting is what I'm really about,
0:37:26 > 0:37:29and so I'll come back...
0:37:29 > 0:37:33So that might involve quite a lot of simple playing, if you know what I mean.
0:37:33 > 0:37:37You know, it's going back to that.
0:37:37 > 0:37:38So, er...
0:37:38 > 0:37:43So, essentially, the folk and the blues influences in my background
0:37:43 > 0:37:46always keep coming back.
0:37:46 > 0:37:47And probably prevent me from...
0:37:47 > 0:37:50you know, from getting too technical.
0:37:50 > 0:37:54And the fact that you play with your weaker hand,
0:37:54 > 0:37:57was that always the case, from when you first started?
0:37:57 > 0:38:00Well, I'm left-handed, and I've got to play right-handed.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03Oh, so you play with your...? So it is your weaker hand.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05- Yeah.- It's your non-writing hand.
0:38:05 > 0:38:07So, er...
0:38:07 > 0:38:08so, er...
0:38:08 > 0:38:11But that actually started... I was playing with a tennis racquet,
0:38:11 > 0:38:14cos I didn't have a guitar, of course, for a long time.
0:38:14 > 0:38:18And Ruth, my older sister, said... I was playing this way, and she said...
0:38:18 > 0:38:22"You turn the tennis racquet round and you play it that way."
0:38:22 > 0:38:24And then,
0:38:24 > 0:38:27they tried to teach me violin at school
0:38:27 > 0:38:28and, er...
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Very unsuccessfully, I should add!
0:38:30 > 0:38:36I could get notes out of it, but, again, you have to learn to play the violin that way.
0:38:36 > 0:38:40So it was natural for me then to pick the guitar up,
0:38:40 > 0:38:43after that, this way.
0:38:43 > 0:38:47And it's actually...it has its advantages, in a way.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51- Which are?- Well, there was a strong left hand on the neck.
0:38:54 > 0:38:59Being around a lot of folk musicians and stuff like that, I learned how to finger-pick.
0:38:59 > 0:39:04That opened up a whole lot of extra stuff, because you're kind of orchestrating.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08Once you start to do that, you're learning.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12It's taking you to different places that a little piece of plastic wouldn't.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15# A love-struck Romeo
0:39:16 > 0:39:18# Got his serenade
0:39:18 > 0:39:21# Laying everybody low
0:39:22 > 0:39:24# With a love song that he made
0:39:25 > 0:39:26# Finds a street light
0:39:26 > 0:39:29# He steps out of the shade He says
0:39:31 > 0:39:33# You and me, babe
0:39:33 > 0:39:34# How about it?
0:39:37 > 0:39:39# Juliet says Goodness me, it's Romeo
0:39:39 > 0:39:41# You nearly gave me a heart attack
0:39:43 > 0:39:45# He's underneath the window She's singing
0:39:45 > 0:39:47# Hey, la, my boyfriend's back
0:39:48 > 0:39:50# You shouldn't come around here
0:39:50 > 0:39:52# Singing up at people like that
0:39:54 > 0:39:57# Anyway, what you gonna do about it?
0:39:59 > 0:40:00# Juliet
0:40:01 > 0:40:03# The dice was loaded from the start
0:40:03 > 0:40:05# And I bet
0:40:07 > 0:40:09# And you exploded in my heart
0:40:09 > 0:40:11# And I forget
0:40:11 > 0:40:13# I forget
0:40:14 > 0:40:15# The movie song
0:40:16 > 0:40:18# And when are you gonna realise
0:40:18 > 0:40:20# It was just that the time was wrong
0:40:20 > 0:40:23# Juliet... #
0:40:23 > 0:40:26But that little piece of plastic, by the way,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30which I then started to neglect after a while,
0:40:30 > 0:40:34is actually one of the best things about the guitar, you know.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37It's the biggest amplifier for the guitar.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39It sends the cleanest signal.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41So, um...
0:40:41 > 0:40:43I still like to play with a pick every now and again.
0:40:43 > 0:40:47I try not to forget. I played that way for years
0:40:47 > 0:40:49and it's really important to be able to do that.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52And it's a lot faster, as well, than all these fingers.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56The pick...it's actually Mr Lightning as well as Mr Loud.
0:40:56 > 0:41:00Although some people are snobbish about it, aren't they?
0:41:00 > 0:41:06I mean, for years, people would say with pride that you were a finger-picking guitarist,
0:41:06 > 0:41:09but, in fact, it's a snobbery that people have.
0:41:09 > 0:41:10Well...yeah.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14Finger-picking starts in quite a simple way.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17It's one step at a time.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19And, um...
0:41:19 > 0:41:22I only moved...
0:41:22 > 0:41:25I'm only...I'm pretty far down the food chain
0:41:25 > 0:41:28as far as all that goes, I should think.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31I mean, I think, when I got playing with Chet Atkins,
0:41:31 > 0:41:32I think he just took pity on me,
0:41:32 > 0:41:34because I was a finger-picker.
0:41:34 > 0:41:38I think he was sort of inclined towards finger-pickers...
0:41:39 > 0:41:41..as opposed to much else.
0:41:41 > 0:41:46But he'd taken all that to a whole different level.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21So, after graduation, you went to London.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24But was that pursuing the rock dream?
0:42:24 > 0:42:25Was that the idea?
0:42:27 > 0:42:32Yes. I mean, the day that I finished university,
0:42:32 > 0:42:35I...I...I...
0:42:35 > 0:42:37I got a Melody Maker and...
0:42:37 > 0:42:42found the biggest ad for a guitar player
0:42:42 > 0:42:44and left and went for London.
0:42:44 > 0:42:46I think that day or the day after.
0:42:47 > 0:42:53And I just found the biggest ad for a guitar player that was in the paper
0:42:53 > 0:42:56and I just went. And I actually happened to pass that audition.
0:42:57 > 0:43:01There was this trail of guitar players coming from the station to the pub!
0:43:01 > 0:43:04And I passed some of them on the way back.
0:43:05 > 0:43:06But...
0:43:06 > 0:43:09So I was hired by this band called Brewer's Droop
0:43:09 > 0:43:13and promised £25 a week, which never really materialised, actually.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17And they were on their last legs at the time.
0:43:17 > 0:43:19So that only lasted two months.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23And then I was back up north, working on a farm and...
0:43:23 > 0:43:27You know, back to trying to figure out a way to survive.
0:43:27 > 0:43:32And then back in the south, you were a college lecturer then?
0:43:32 > 0:43:35Getting the college job saved me.
0:43:35 > 0:43:39Because a friend's mother rang up and said,
0:43:39 > 0:43:43"There's a vacancy in the English department down here.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46"Would you like to come and try for it?"
0:43:46 > 0:43:48I came down and tried for that and got that.
0:43:48 > 0:43:50And, actually, that was fantastic for me.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54It was on the outskirts of London, in Essex.
0:43:54 > 0:43:56It was on the Central Line.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58So I used to, um...
0:43:58 > 0:44:00I used to...
0:44:01 > 0:44:05I actually earned more money in teaching than I'd ever earned in my life.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09And it enabled me to get a motorcycle
0:44:09 > 0:44:13and it enabled then to...then I bought my dad's old car,
0:44:13 > 0:44:16so I could carry guitars in it.
0:44:18 > 0:44:24And start, really start really thinking in terms of trying to put together a little band
0:44:24 > 0:44:25that could play the songs.
0:44:25 > 0:44:27Because the songs...
0:44:27 > 0:44:30I started three years of teaching and during that time,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33I started to put the songs together.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36I went to America. I could afford to go on a Greyhound bus round...
0:44:36 > 0:44:40I got a Greyhound bus ticket in '76
0:44:40 > 0:44:42and I went around America on my own.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45And...
0:44:45 > 0:44:46um...
0:44:46 > 0:44:49and was writing
0:44:49 > 0:44:53and starting to put together the first sets of songs.
0:44:54 > 0:44:56And so, it enabled me to do that.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58And that's how teaching saved my life.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00It absolutely did.
0:45:00 > 0:45:04And subsequently, did any of the students you taught, did they say,
0:45:04 > 0:45:07- "Hang on a minute, you were that guy who...?"- Yes!
0:45:07 > 0:45:10Yeah, every now and again.
0:45:10 > 0:45:12But thankfully, they passed their exams,
0:45:12 > 0:45:13so...
0:45:13 > 0:45:17they can't reproach me too badly, I hope.
0:45:17 > 0:45:21Um...but I was teaching everybody
0:45:21 > 0:45:23and, er...
0:45:23 > 0:45:27I used to have shoulder-length hair and a blue velvet suit
0:45:27 > 0:45:30and, um, red basketball boots.
0:45:30 > 0:45:33And that's what I used to teach in quite often.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36That's how I started doing... It was all first names.
0:45:36 > 0:45:38And I had a great time.
0:45:40 > 0:45:41And, er...
0:45:41 > 0:45:43um...
0:45:43 > 0:45:47And it was great just to be able to get a place
0:45:47 > 0:45:49and be able to turn around.
0:45:49 > 0:45:56And that's what actually really was the foundation of being able to
0:45:56 > 0:46:00get the beginnings of a band going,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03to start to write the songs.
0:46:03 > 0:46:07And bands always have a creation story, which are often disputed among the members.
0:46:07 > 0:46:11But the creation story of Dire Straits - whose idea was it?
0:46:12 > 0:46:16Well, I wanted to have a platform,
0:46:16 > 0:46:20a little vehicle, if you like, that I could use... There - I've said "vehicle"!
0:46:20 > 0:46:23..for...for the songs.
0:46:23 > 0:46:30And I was playing with my brother, who was...who had a flat in Deptford.
0:46:30 > 0:46:36And his flatmate, John Illsley, was playing bass
0:46:36 > 0:46:38in another group.
0:46:38 > 0:46:42And I'd go down, and had started playing these songs.
0:46:57 > 0:47:01I just thought, "Well, this is great. John's a really nice guy."
0:47:01 > 0:47:05So there's me and David, and then there's John -
0:47:05 > 0:47:06we just need a drummer.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10We didn't really have any money,
0:47:10 > 0:47:14because all the money... I was buying my first Fender Stratocaster
0:47:14 > 0:47:18and was buying... We were buying gear.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22And John, in fact, had £200
0:47:22 > 0:47:26or £250 left. That's all he had,
0:47:26 > 0:47:30in a savings account that his mother had given him or something
0:47:30 > 0:47:34and that went to pay for the demos
0:47:34 > 0:47:38that we recorded at Pathway Studios up in North London.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Before we worry about that bit, can we go right back to the start?
0:47:41 > 0:47:43Yeah, OK.
0:47:45 > 0:47:47Starts with the chorus, does it?
0:47:47 > 0:47:49It starts with that chorus thing?
0:47:49 > 0:47:50Yeah.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59HE WHISTLES
0:48:12 > 0:48:13Keep going.
0:48:16 > 0:48:18# Action, action
0:48:18 > 0:48:20# Making movies... #
0:48:20 > 0:48:21Take one!
0:48:21 > 0:48:26We know from the Gallagher brothers and Everly Brothers that siblings in a band can be difficult
0:48:26 > 0:48:29and you have that experience with David.
0:48:29 > 0:48:32In retrospect, is it not a good idea for brothers to be in a...?
0:48:32 > 0:48:34Oh, it's a perfectly good idea.
0:48:34 > 0:48:35You know, as long as it works.
0:48:35 > 0:48:38I just...
0:48:38 > 0:48:39I was just...
0:48:39 > 0:48:43I was in a hurry, and I knew what I wanted.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46And I was...
0:48:47 > 0:48:50For instance, you know, now, I mean, I...
0:48:50 > 0:48:53Working with the musicians that I'm working with,
0:48:53 > 0:48:57they're not... It's not...
0:48:57 > 0:49:02You don't get a situation where I'd tell anybody what to do.
0:49:03 > 0:49:07Just like a good director wouldn't tell a good actor what to do.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10"I want you to sit down there and put your elbow on the window sill."
0:49:10 > 0:49:11You wouldn't do that.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13Some of them do, apparently.
0:49:13 > 0:49:18But in those days, you would. You were in charge of Dire Straits.
0:49:18 > 0:49:21I think I...yes, I probably was, to a certain extent.
0:49:21 > 0:49:27Not so much with Pick, because Pick had done some recording and probably knew a lot more about it than I did.
0:49:29 > 0:49:30But, um...
0:49:30 > 0:49:32Er, yeah.
0:49:32 > 0:49:37So I think that was going to be a little bit tricky,
0:49:37 > 0:49:41because I think David was still learning, you know,
0:49:41 > 0:49:45a lot of those... His guitar playing was...
0:49:46 > 0:49:51I mean, I don't know how far really advanced we were,
0:49:51 > 0:49:53short of major chords and a few licks.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57We'll just do it, the three of us, then you come in.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59I'll show you what I mean.
0:50:19 > 0:50:20Was it painful?
0:50:22 > 0:50:25Well, I think with any situation with a band,
0:50:25 > 0:50:30it actually doesn't make any difference particularly if it's a sibling thing,
0:50:30 > 0:50:34because my experience with...
0:50:34 > 0:50:37It came as a real shock to me with this band Brewer's Droop,
0:50:37 > 0:50:39when I first joined from university.
0:50:39 > 0:50:41I thought that...I thought...
0:50:43 > 0:50:47When I was a kid, I thought that everybody had to really love each other in these bands.
0:50:47 > 0:50:50And I realised that they all hated each other, and it was a real shock to me.
0:50:52 > 0:50:57Often in these cases, the songwriter...there's a division between the songwriter and the band
0:50:57 > 0:51:02and other members of it, partly because songwriters in most cases made more money.
0:51:02 > 0:51:05Was that an issue in Dire Straits?
0:51:06 > 0:51:10No. The financial thing was never... That wasn't it.
0:51:10 > 0:51:14We didn't have any money, because they didn't give us any money for 18 months.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17We were always Number One all around the world,
0:51:17 > 0:51:21but the way that the accounting goes, when you sign up, you know,
0:51:21 > 0:51:26you have to renegotiate all of that.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29So I think our accounting was 18 months.
0:51:29 > 0:51:35I think 18 months later we started to get some money coming back.
0:51:36 > 0:51:40So it wasn't... We didn't have any money, anyway.
0:51:40 > 0:51:41That's how that works!
0:51:43 > 0:51:48And I started to realise actually even then that's how...
0:51:48 > 0:51:53People in the performing arts generally don't have as much money as people think they do.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00# Are a home now for me
0:52:04 > 0:52:07# But my home is the lowlands... #
0:52:10 > 0:52:14You went from playing in pubs to these huge industrial stadium tours.
0:52:14 > 0:52:16That was one of the shocks of Dire Straits.
0:52:16 > 0:52:18It went huge very quickly.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21It was a shock to the system, presumably, for you?
0:52:22 > 0:52:27It's really tough, doing a lot of that stuff. You've really got to want to be there.
0:52:27 > 0:52:31And particularly for the times when you're not well,
0:52:31 > 0:52:35and particularly for times when you really are under pressure.
0:52:35 > 0:52:39Then the desire has really got to be there.
0:52:39 > 0:52:44Just like the desire has to really be there to want to learn to play the damn thing.
0:52:45 > 0:52:49To learn to play that well - doesn't matter what it is.
0:52:50 > 0:52:53Whether it's a violin or anything. You've really got to want to do it.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55# ..brothers in arms... #
0:53:11 > 0:53:15Some people just don't have enough motor, you know?
0:53:15 > 0:53:19They just don't have the will that's required.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22But some people famously give up performing because they're...
0:53:22 > 0:53:25The power of the crowd can be a scary thing.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28But you've never had stage fright in that way?
0:53:29 > 0:53:31You want to have a little bit of adrenaline.
0:53:31 > 0:53:35A little bit, when you're up and doing that.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38But you don't want to have so much that you're just incapacitated.
0:53:38 > 0:53:41I think, um...
0:53:42 > 0:53:45People who...people who can't hack it,
0:53:45 > 0:53:49just can't cope with it, then you'd be best go off and find something else to do.
0:53:49 > 0:53:54You seem from the outside to be a natural collaborator,
0:53:54 > 0:53:58because you've produced other people, including Bob Dylan. You've supported him,
0:53:58 > 0:54:00recorded with Emmylou Harris...
0:54:00 > 0:54:03# This is us down at the Mardi Gras
0:54:03 > 0:54:07# This is us in your daddy's car
0:54:07 > 0:54:09# You and the missing link
0:54:09 > 0:54:12# I'd had a little too much to drink... #
0:54:14 > 0:54:17With Emmylou it was lovely,
0:54:17 > 0:54:22because I was thinking of songs that were a male-female shape,
0:54:22 > 0:54:26so that was all great.
0:54:26 > 0:54:31Except that I would have loved with Emmy to have been able to have had a proper swing at it.
0:54:31 > 0:54:35Instead of recording little dribs and drabs here and there, just a few little sessions,
0:54:35 > 0:54:40we didn't really get a proper extended period in the studio.
0:54:40 > 0:54:47But I think probably in the end, all these things, it keeps life interesting.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49It certainly did all that.
0:54:49 > 0:54:51Doing all the Dylan stuff and everything.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54But I think I'm probably best, you know,
0:54:54 > 0:55:00best just hanging around the house writing my own ditties and going out and recording them.
0:55:02 > 0:55:05# Could never tell the story
0:55:07 > 0:55:10# Spinning unheard
0:55:12 > 0:55:16# In the dark of the sky
0:55:18 > 0:55:21# But I love you
0:55:24 > 0:55:27# And this is our glory
0:55:29 > 0:55:31# If this is goodbye
0:55:34 > 0:55:37# If this is goodbye
0:55:40 > 0:55:42# If this is goodbye
0:55:45 > 0:55:48# If this is goodbye... #
0:55:49 > 0:55:54Finally, you work very hard still, supporting Bob Dylan recently on that tour.
0:55:54 > 0:55:58There were 20 songs on your most recent solo album.
0:55:58 > 0:56:04I assume financially you don't have to do it, so what is it that keeps you working?
0:56:04 > 0:56:06What do you think it is?
0:56:07 > 0:56:11I think you're driven to do it, aren't you? I mean, it's what you do. It's inside your head.
0:56:13 > 0:56:14Yeah. I think it has to be.
0:56:14 > 0:56:20And in your heart. It has to be... You have to have the desire to show up and do it.
0:56:20 > 0:56:22Inspiration is always wonderful,
0:56:22 > 0:56:24but it's not all that.
0:56:24 > 0:56:26A lot of the time, you're just working to finish it,
0:56:26 > 0:56:32or you're working to get it somehow into a shape that you can do something with it.
0:56:32 > 0:56:36But all I want to do is try to write a good one.
0:56:36 > 0:56:41And hopefully then to actually translate that on to a record, get that on to a record.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44To write a good song and try to make a good record.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47That's it. It doesn't get any more complicated than that.
0:56:49 > 0:56:51Mark Knopfler, thank you.
0:56:51 > 0:56:52Welcome.
0:57:00 > 0:57:03Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd