0:00:23 > 0:00:27Zoe Wanamaker is strongly associated with two high profile families.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29The first is the Wanamakers.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Her father, Sam, an ex-patriot American in Britain,
0:00:32 > 0:00:35campaigned and fundraised for decades to build a recreation
0:00:35 > 0:00:39of Shakespeare's Globe Theatre in London.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42The other is the Harpers, including matriarch and dentist's wife Susan,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44who Zoe Wanamaker played for a decade
0:00:44 > 0:00:49opposite Robert Lindsay in the top-rating BBC One sitcom.
0:00:49 > 0:00:50Between those clans she became a familiar
0:00:50 > 0:00:54and award-winning stage actress in classical and modern roles.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Inheriting a famous showbiz name,
0:00:56 > 0:00:59she's made it even more celebrated in her own right.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01Both your parents were actors
0:01:01 > 0:01:03and you followed them into the profession.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Have you ever regretted it or wished you'd done something else instead?
0:01:06 > 0:01:08No.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13I wish I'd had...
0:01:15 > 0:01:18..more time for my education.
0:01:18 > 0:01:19That's all.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20I think that's the only thing.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23I wish I'd been able to go to university
0:01:23 > 0:01:26and actually spend some time doing that.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30Expanding my brain a little bit more in an academic way.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32And looking at your list of credits,
0:01:32 > 0:01:36there's a pretty decent job on stage or screen for pretty much
0:01:36 > 0:01:40every year I can find since you started in the 1970s.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Is that the case or have there been spells of unemployment and despair?
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Yes is the quick answer.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47Yes, there have been.
0:01:49 > 0:01:55I remember times when I had to count the pennies to find out
0:01:55 > 0:01:56if I could buy a loaf of bread
0:01:56 > 0:01:59or if I could get a pack of fags or something like that,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03but, yes, I think there's an innate fear of not working.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07And also, I love working. I love it.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10A lot of actors don't work, as we know.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12Because of the way it works, having to go for auditions
0:02:12 > 0:02:15and the possibility of rejection and then reviews
0:02:15 > 0:02:18and whether things run or not, or work as films,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21insecurity is inevitable, is it?
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Yes, absolutely.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28I'm afraid it's a shadow that's there with you all the time.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36It goes with the territory, I think,
0:02:36 > 0:02:39which is a shame cos it can cripple you.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41That's the only problem.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44And is acting completely natural to you now,
0:02:44 > 0:02:46or are there nerves and uncertainty?
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Yes, there are nerves and uncertainty.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52It's not natural.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54It's instinctive.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00But there are times when it becomes, as an actor,
0:03:00 > 0:03:04for me, personally, anyway, there are times when my instinct stops,
0:03:04 > 0:03:08and that's when I get stuck.
0:03:08 > 0:03:13Then it's finding your way out of that, that is always the struggle
0:03:13 > 0:03:17and is always the crisis point in any rehearsal period it seems to me.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20Has it gone beyond that? Have you found yourself in a role
0:03:20 > 0:03:24where you have ended up thinking, "I just can't play this?"
0:03:24 > 0:03:30Yes, and I think that's when I stopped reading reviews.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35And I did go to the director and I said, after a week,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38"I don't think I'm right for this."
0:03:38 > 0:03:40Which part?
0:03:42 > 0:03:45Let me finish the story and then I'll tell you.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48It was the only time that I felt American and Jewish.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51It's never happened to me before
0:03:51 > 0:03:55and I was surrounded by very English actors
0:03:55 > 0:03:58and I felt that I was completely wrong for it.
0:04:01 > 0:04:06Then I read a review after we opened and this one critic said that
0:04:06 > 0:04:11I was completely wrong and it crippled me for the rest of the run.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14Completely crippled me, destroyed me.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16So I thought, "That's it, I'm never going to read a review again."
0:04:16 > 0:04:19There's no point if that's what's going to happen to you,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22that you actually can not function after that.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24And it was The Importance Of Being Earnest at the National
0:04:24 > 0:04:26with Judi playing my mother...
0:04:26 > 0:04:29- Judi Dench?- Yes, sorry, Judi Dench.
0:04:30 > 0:04:35..which was our second outing as mother and daughter.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39That was an example of being crippled by something.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42I think I had another image in my head of what it should be,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44not what it was.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46So, in that case, did you say to Judi Dench,
0:04:46 > 0:04:48"Look, I'm struggling here."
0:04:48 > 0:04:50- Yes.- And what did she say?
0:04:50 > 0:04:54I can't remember. Probably something very encouraging.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58But this is the problem.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01If a film hasn't worked, people don't like it, you're away from it,
0:05:01 > 0:05:05but on stage, if you don't feel it's working
0:05:05 > 0:05:08or if the audiences aren't coming or the reviews have been bad,
0:05:08 > 0:05:10you just have to carry on.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Yes, you do. You have to go on.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15You have to keep on believing in that path that you've taken
0:05:15 > 0:05:20and the reason that you committed yourself to that piece of work
0:05:20 > 0:05:21and also to that character.
0:05:21 > 0:05:27And you have to do it justice and you have to believe in it somehow.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30That's why I don't read reviews. There's no point.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32It just is damaging.
0:05:32 > 0:05:37I can't take criticism until the play is done,
0:05:37 > 0:05:40the character's put to bed, character's put to sleep,
0:05:40 > 0:05:43and then maybe I'll look at a review
0:05:43 > 0:05:48and think that was justified or not.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51Another question of etiquette over reactions to roles is
0:05:51 > 0:05:53you're married to an actor, Gawn Grainger,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55so when you go and see each other,
0:05:55 > 0:05:58are there rules about how honest you are?
0:05:58 > 0:06:02I think one has to be very delicate about...
0:06:02 > 0:06:04This doesn't just apply to my husband.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07It applies to everybody, I think.
0:06:07 > 0:06:13You can't destroy somebody's confidence like that.
0:06:13 > 0:06:14Ever.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18Do you carry in your head a list of the ones that worked
0:06:18 > 0:06:20and the ones that didn't?
0:06:20 > 0:06:26No, I don't carry it with me. Once I've finished a character it's gone.
0:06:26 > 0:06:32But I do have happy, good memories of things that I feel I was,
0:06:32 > 0:06:36on the whole, pleased with myself with.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38In your episode of Who Do You Think You Are,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40you described yourself as an immigrant
0:06:40 > 0:06:43because you moved to the UK from America at the age of two.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47Was that jokey or is that, in fact, how you think of yourself?
0:06:47 > 0:06:49No, I don't think so.
0:06:49 > 0:06:55I think the older I've become, the more I see around me
0:06:55 > 0:06:57that most of us are immigrants in some way or other,
0:06:57 > 0:07:02and it was just very visceral, that experience, I have to say,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05and it's a privilege, that programme, in a way,
0:07:05 > 0:07:08because the research is done for you.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11Because you're father was a more public figure,
0:07:11 > 0:07:13you tend to be associated with him.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16Yours are the names that are connected when people talk about you
0:07:16 > 0:07:21so were you, in fact, closer to your father than to your mother?
0:07:21 > 0:07:24No, I wouldn't say. I think it was equal.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28I think I was quite frightened of my father.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32I loved him and hated him at the same time and I was quite nervous of him.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35My mother was adorable and sweet
0:07:35 > 0:07:39and funny
0:07:39 > 0:07:41and vulnerable
0:07:41 > 0:07:43and shy.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45All those things.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49She brought us up really because Dad started going...
0:07:49 > 0:07:52After his passport was given back to him,
0:07:52 > 0:07:55he started going back to work in America a lot.
0:07:55 > 0:08:00So Mum was there looking after the three of us.
0:08:00 > 0:08:02So it was hard. It was harder for her.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05The question of the passport.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07In your Who Do You Think You Are,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10it was set up as a mystery at the beginning
0:08:10 > 0:08:12that your Dad, Sam Wanamaker,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16suddenly left the US in 1951, come here.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20But I felt that I actually knew that there had been a lot of discussion
0:08:20 > 0:08:22in his obituaries and even in interviews he gave
0:08:22 > 0:08:25about him being a victim of McCarthyism.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Having to leave America and coming here.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32Did you, in fact, know as little as you appeared to know
0:08:32 > 0:08:35in the TV documentary?
0:08:35 > 0:08:41Yes, I did know as little as that because...
0:08:44 > 0:08:47It was never really mentioned when we were growing up.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49The only time it was mentioned...
0:08:49 > 0:08:55I do remember only a few times in my memory, which is not good,
0:08:55 > 0:08:58that when the offices were broken into in the States,
0:08:58 > 0:09:00Daddy was sent his file,
0:09:00 > 0:09:04so I remember that very well because it was Sunday lunch time
0:09:04 > 0:09:08and we all had a look at it and it was this thin.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10So this was Senator McCarthy's investigation, yeah.
0:09:10 > 0:09:15My god. 'A reliable informant, 1947' it goes back.
0:09:15 > 0:09:20'Confidential informant advised that she, an actress,
0:09:20 > 0:09:24'had been active in the theatre during that time in New York.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27'She'd been told the Wanamakers, Charlotte and Sam,
0:09:27 > 0:09:30had been members of the Communist Party for a number of years.'
0:09:30 > 0:09:37It just looks like they were people they were working with
0:09:37 > 0:09:38were informants.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42And then the next time we spoke about it, which I think I said,
0:09:42 > 0:09:44was when I was doing The Crucible at the National, and it was
0:09:44 > 0:09:51the first time I can remember Daddy really talking about what happened.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55Because, for people who don't know,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58Arthur Miller's The Crucible was inspired by McCarthyism
0:09:58 > 0:10:02- and the pursuit of alleged Communists in America.- Yes.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05- So it was therefore a very direct... - The witch hunt.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11The only reason why we came to England was because of Daddy knowing
0:10:11 > 0:10:14that he was going to be subpoenaed to go before the committee.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16He must have been tipped off.
0:10:16 > 0:10:22I also didn't know to the extent he was a member of the Communist Party.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25Now that was really interesting watching that programme that,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28to adapt that terrible McCarthy phrase, growing up with him,
0:10:28 > 0:10:31you had no sense he was or ever had been a Communist?
0:10:31 > 0:10:35I don't think I was that politically aware, to be honest. Or interested.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39That's my...
0:10:41 > 0:10:45It may be a failing, but I just wasn't that...
0:10:45 > 0:10:48It didn't matter to me.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51I didn't know that he'd been followed. I didn't know that.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54All I knew was what my mother told me, which I think
0:10:54 > 0:11:00I talked about, that she was constantly, when living in New York,
0:11:00 > 0:11:01worried about the phone being tapped,
0:11:01 > 0:11:04about the knock at the door, who it was going to be,
0:11:04 > 0:11:10about certain friends, so coming to England was a big thing for them.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13And that detail you say of your Dad getting his passport back and being
0:11:13 > 0:11:17able to go and work there, do you remember that happening at the time?
0:11:17 > 0:11:20All I remember is that he took my big sister...
0:11:22 > 0:11:25..on a weekend trip, I think, to Holland or somewhere.
0:11:26 > 0:11:31Copenhagen or something, because he had his passport.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33He just wanted to see if it worked.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37But you didn't know the details of why he'd lost his passport?
0:11:38 > 0:11:40No, I didn't know the details.
0:11:40 > 0:11:44I just knew that he was very outspoken and he was very left wing
0:11:44 > 0:11:46and he was part of the Hollywood Ten.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49He'd met the Hollywood Ten in Washington.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I knew those sort of stories
0:11:52 > 0:11:56and that a lot of my parents' friends in this country
0:11:56 > 0:12:01were American immigrants running away.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03So what was your relationship with America then,
0:12:03 > 0:12:05when you were growing up?
0:12:05 > 0:12:09- Did you ever go there? - Yes, I went there.
0:12:09 > 0:12:14Then, telephone calls were quite expensive and my grandparents...
0:12:16 > 0:12:18You know, the telephone calls were usually on a Sunday.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22My mother always used to say, "It's my nickel" or "It's their nickel.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25"You can't talk for too long."
0:12:25 > 0:12:31So I did go back, I think, the first time I went there was
0:12:31 > 0:12:35when I was 17 or 18 to New York.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39I went to New York and then I went to Chicago to see my aunt
0:12:39 > 0:12:45and then I went to California where my grandparents had retired to.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48I suddenly felt very English because we had mini skirts here,
0:12:48 > 0:12:53we had bubble haircuts and we had the Rolling Stones and the Beatles.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57So suddenly, for me to be English, was much more cool
0:12:57 > 0:12:59than it was to be American.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02It was the sixties, you know.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Your father became very celebrated in this country and remained so
0:13:06 > 0:13:09for the recreation of Shakespeare's Globe beside the Thames.
0:13:09 > 0:13:13Was Shakespeare a big deal growing up?
0:13:13 > 0:13:15- For me?- Yeah.
0:13:15 > 0:13:16No.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19In fact, when I left drama school,
0:13:19 > 0:13:21that time is about the seventies,
0:13:21 > 0:13:23we're talking about the seventies.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27For me, the most important thing was new writing
0:13:27 > 0:13:32and that was very dominant with my generation of actors as well.
0:13:32 > 0:13:33My friends.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37So when I first went to Stratford I wanted to do new plays
0:13:37 > 0:13:41rather than do Shakespeare, but then I kind of...
0:13:41 > 0:13:45John Barton used to have sonnet classes on a Saturday morning
0:13:45 > 0:13:51and those were illuminating and extraordinary and I would have...
0:13:51 > 0:13:56If I got stuck, I would have to ask my friends
0:13:56 > 0:13:59about how does iambic pentameter work.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01I still to this day don't know.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04Well, I do, ish, but it's instinct.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06I mean, it's the wonderful thing about Shakespeare
0:14:06 > 0:14:09and that's what I loved about being there.
0:14:09 > 0:14:14It was like having a good education again
0:14:14 > 0:14:18and learning again about Shakespeare and why people loved it so much.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20But what became the Globe Project...
0:14:20 > 0:14:22What became the Globe Project?
0:14:22 > 0:14:26Yeah, was that there? Was that passion from early on?
0:14:26 > 0:14:31That was a passion from his, I think,
0:14:31 > 0:14:35from the 1960s, late sixties.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39It suddenly became a thing with him, but my career was just beginning
0:14:39 > 0:14:44and he's then started this whole passion for Shakespeare's Globe.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49It is Shakespeare's Globe to most of us when we go past it or we see it,
0:14:49 > 0:14:51but it's HIS Globe, is it, for you?
0:14:51 > 0:14:56Yeah, he'd hate me for saying that, but it's true.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00But he's dead! So he can't criticise me any more!
0:15:00 > 0:15:01THEY GIGGLE
0:15:01 > 0:15:06No, it's a fantastic thing and, in fact, what they've done is,
0:15:06 > 0:15:10they're building this indoor Jacobean theatre now
0:15:10 > 0:15:13and they're going to call it the Sam Wanamaker Theatre,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17which he would again have hated,
0:15:17 > 0:15:21because he didn't believe in naming buildings after people.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25You know, as long as he's in the ether and his name goes in the ether,
0:15:25 > 0:15:27I'm very happy. I think it's great.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30So growing up in school, you had an American passport,
0:15:30 > 0:15:32but I assume an English accent.
0:15:32 > 0:15:33Yeah. Yeah.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36But did you think of yourself as an American?
0:15:41 > 0:15:42No, not really.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Um...
0:15:46 > 0:15:48When Dad would go to the States,
0:15:48 > 0:15:52he would always come back with suitcases of clothes,
0:15:52 > 0:15:54as kind of apology for being away for so long,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57and there was always a fight between the three girls,
0:15:57 > 0:15:59you know, as to who would get...
0:15:59 > 0:16:02Cos Dad's taste was always a little bit...
0:16:02 > 0:16:03THEY GIGGLE
0:16:03 > 0:16:08And there was always a fight as to who got what.
0:16:08 > 0:16:12There was always colour involved,
0:16:12 > 0:16:17whereas, and still, the '50s and '60s, everybody started to wear black
0:16:17 > 0:16:21and everybody was being a Beatnik or white lipstick, I remember.
0:16:21 > 0:16:26White lipstick and black eyeliner and lots of blond streaked hair, I had.
0:16:26 > 0:16:27Dreadful, with peroxide.
0:16:27 > 0:16:33And so when he brought colour into the house, there was always that.
0:16:33 > 0:16:38The other time I felt American was when we'd go to English houses,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41and there was no central heating and it was freezing cold,
0:16:41 > 0:16:44and the showers would always pee at you
0:16:44 > 0:16:48rather than actually having a full-grown shower,
0:16:48 > 0:16:54and when I was on tour, putting money into the metres for the gas,
0:16:54 > 0:16:58and having Flannelette, you know - those sort of things were not...
0:17:00 > 0:17:02..not how I was brought up!
0:17:02 > 0:17:04THEY LAUGH
0:17:04 > 0:17:10Because my mother imported... stuff from the States.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12Sheets that would...were nice.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15- And the power shower is part of the American dream.- Yes.
0:17:15 > 0:17:20An actual shower that does you, rather than does bits of you.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22It's cold. It's horrid.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25That's when I felt American.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Also I felt American in as far as we watched Lucille Ball,
0:17:28 > 0:17:35we watched Bill Coe, we watched those sorts of things, which...
0:17:35 > 0:17:38which were part of my heritage.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40My children's books were -
0:17:40 > 0:17:43The Bobbsey Twins was something that I used to like.
0:17:43 > 0:17:48So I felt in that way American, very much a part of that culture.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50The humour, really.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54And schoolchildren are very, very alert to outsiders
0:17:54 > 0:17:57and people who aren't quite fitting in,
0:17:57 > 0:18:00but did you pass as a perfect English schoolgirl?
0:18:00 > 0:18:04Well, like all middle-class girls, you start having a cockney accent,
0:18:04 > 0:18:09and start trying to be street, so that's what I did,
0:18:09 > 0:18:11and so yeah,
0:18:11 > 0:18:13I tried to be cool.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16And you said earlier, The Importance Of Being Earnest,
0:18:16 > 0:18:19it was the only time you'd felt American and Jewish.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21- Yes.- The Jewish aspect of it.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24So, although your family were, they were not observant.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26We were Jewish, yes.
0:18:26 > 0:18:32Oh... There was a time when Dad got suddenly very worried
0:18:32 > 0:18:36that we weren't learning about our...our culture as Jews,
0:18:36 > 0:18:40so I went to the Saturday morning classes.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44I think cos he knew Hugh Gaitskell quite well,
0:18:44 > 0:18:49and so I think one of the Gaitskell girls were going there as well,
0:18:49 > 0:18:54so I went to Saturday morning classes for a few months.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57That was through the then-Labour leader,
0:18:57 > 0:18:59so that was through left-wing politics?
0:18:59 > 0:19:01Definitely. Definitely.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04So in your childhood, that sense of what it meant to have been blacklisted,
0:19:04 > 0:19:07to have been accused of being a communist in American show business
0:19:07 > 0:19:10and then left, you were aware of all that.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12It was openly talked about.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Yes, that was openly talked about.
0:19:14 > 0:19:19So when you said earlier, I seemed to have no knowledge,
0:19:19 > 0:19:25I think I had not gone into it deeply.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30I didn't, at that time, connect with -
0:19:30 > 0:19:34in my completely selfish way -
0:19:34 > 0:19:39had not connected with the pain and suffering and...and...
0:19:42 > 0:19:46..conflict that must have happened within these people,
0:19:46 > 0:19:47my parents included.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49I wondered about that.
0:19:49 > 0:19:54Were they visibly, noticeably angry about it or they kept it hidden?
0:19:54 > 0:19:57I don't think they kept it hidden at all.
0:19:58 > 0:20:04I bought Dad for Christmas Kazan's, Elia Kazan's biography,
0:20:04 > 0:20:07and he wasn't too pleased, he didn't think that was funny.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10- Because Kazan was on the other... - Because he named names.
0:20:10 > 0:20:11He named names. Yeah.
0:20:11 > 0:20:16And I think that he didn't find that interesting at all.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18He was clearly, as we see because the Globe is there,
0:20:18 > 0:20:20he was determined, your father.
0:20:20 > 0:20:26That's what was scary about him. He was a powerful force, I have to say.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31I think the three of us were all...
0:20:31 > 0:20:36We loved him and also hated him. Hated is too strong a word.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40Yes. Sometimes we would hate him. I know I did.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43Angry, just angry with him.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46Why? Why would he make you angry?
0:20:46 > 0:20:50You know, we only remember the good things. Isn't it funny?
0:20:50 > 0:20:53Erm...
0:20:53 > 0:20:58I think because he was...erm, always right.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00THEY LAUGH
0:21:00 > 0:21:04Erm, and also he was combative.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09And sometimes would be...
0:21:10 > 0:21:14Let me see, he wouldn't take any prisoners.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19If somebody crossed him, that was it.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23He could be very strong like that.
0:21:23 > 0:21:28He was a first-generation American and that says a lot,
0:21:28 > 0:21:32and particularly in this country, sometimes I would find it embarrassing.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35Fathers are very embarrassing sometimes as well.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40And he talked to people in the street and I thought that was embarrassing.
0:21:42 > 0:21:43You know, he was nice to people.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45I think I have more of my mother in me,
0:21:45 > 0:21:52which is slightly more shy and reserved and get self-conscious.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56But he was also a first-generation American who'd been kicked out of the country,
0:21:56 > 0:21:59which is pretty... You can see why... I think I can see why,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03psychologically, that is a pretty extraordinary thing, isn't it.
0:22:03 > 0:22:04Mmm.
0:22:04 > 0:22:08- So you have the immigrant pride and then you have the anger.- Yes.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11Yes. I think the anger.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15But he was also that kind of person, he never liked to sit still.
0:22:15 > 0:22:20He never liked to... If he wasn't working, he'd create work.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26I think that's how the Globe started to some extent,
0:22:26 > 0:22:31because he was taking his brother, who was a doctor, on a visit to London
0:22:31 > 0:22:36and they walked around Southwark and found everything in dereliction,
0:22:36 > 0:22:38and found this plaque.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40So then he got fired up about that.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43It's very him that he would have been that driven
0:22:43 > 0:22:45because a lot of people would've given up
0:22:45 > 0:22:48and a lot of people would never have achieved it, but he did both.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50Yeah. And also from a lot of people saying no.
0:22:52 > 0:22:57Southwark Council saying no. The people of Southwark saying no.
0:22:57 > 0:22:58Erm...
0:23:00 > 0:23:04I think they thought he was an American and therefore either
0:23:04 > 0:23:09they should be given the money or he should go back to his own country.
0:23:09 > 0:23:10LAUGHTER
0:23:10 > 0:23:12I don't know what.
0:23:12 > 0:23:18But to spend 27 years of his life on this mission, I would have given up.
0:23:20 > 0:23:21Just...
0:23:23 > 0:23:27And your parents sent you, at one point, to a Quaker school.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Was that for religious reasons or just because it was a good school?
0:23:30 > 0:23:32I think they felt that I was...
0:23:32 > 0:23:33SHE GIGGLES
0:23:33 > 0:23:37I wasn't doing well at my other school, I was distracted,
0:23:37 > 0:23:43and that I needed to go elsewhere and I should be sent away,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46and the Quaker boarding school was a lovely idea.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50Really fantastic. But it was too late. It was too late.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53But I did love going on the Sunday meetings,
0:23:53 > 0:23:55I really enjoyed that very much.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59I think it was so that I was away from London, away from distractions.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03I had a boyfriend at the time, and that was not right.
0:24:03 > 0:24:08Erm... Not "not right", it was just distracting.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10Were you a bad girl?
0:24:10 > 0:24:11I was a bad girl.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17I smoked cigarettes behind the bike sheds, literally.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20I mean, really.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23Also, unbeknownst to myself,...
0:24:24 > 0:24:32..I have dyslexia, so that made things a little more...tricky.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36Also, half my concentration was out the window, anyway.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39I was away with the fairies most of the time.
0:24:39 > 0:24:43But I was taken off maths because they said there's no point.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45There's just no point!
0:24:45 > 0:24:48But there it is, they were right.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50They just gave up.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52When was the dyslexia diagnosed?
0:24:52 > 0:24:54- Only a few years ago.- Right.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56I'd always...
0:24:58 > 0:25:01..used it as an excuse.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03So you had self-diagnosed yourself?
0:25:03 > 0:25:04Yeah.
0:25:04 > 0:25:09I had said, "I've got dyslexia", with my cockney, right-on accent.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13I've got dyslexia so I can't make no head nor tail of what this script is
0:25:13 > 0:25:20or I can't read, any excuse to not actually get to the point,
0:25:20 > 0:25:23which is what drove my father insane.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26Hence me being frightened of him!
0:25:26 > 0:25:30But I was diagnosed a few years ago,
0:25:30 > 0:25:36and it's a relief to know that I wasn't wrong.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38Now I wear it as a kind of...
0:25:38 > 0:25:43badge of honour really, cos I've managed to get this far with it,
0:25:43 > 0:25:48and I think it can be a very crippling thing.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51So all those years, before you were diagnosed,
0:25:51 > 0:25:53of reading scripts and learning lines,
0:25:53 > 0:25:57was it significantly more difficult than it should've been?
0:25:57 > 0:26:00Sometimes.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03Sometimes it was hard,
0:26:03 > 0:26:08but that's usually when a thing was... If it wasn't written well.
0:26:08 > 0:26:10Which is quite interesting.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14Shakespeare, I found very easy to learn because there is a rhythm.
0:26:14 > 0:26:21There is something in that writing which is easier, instinctively,
0:26:21 > 0:26:22to get under your belt.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31Poor, key-cold figure of a holy king.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36Pale ashes of the house of Lancaster.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Thou bloodless remnant of that royal blood.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Be it lawful that I invocate thy ghost
0:26:45 > 0:26:48to hear the lamentations of poor Anne.
0:26:48 > 0:26:52Wife to thy Edward, to thy slaughter'd son.
0:26:53 > 0:26:57Stabbed by the selfsame hand that made these wounds.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02And since you were diagnosed, have you done anything about it?
0:27:02 > 0:27:04No, I've been very lazy about it.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07I haven't had time, which is nice.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09It is, isn't it.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13Some acting parents urge their children to follow them and others
0:27:13 > 0:27:17urge them not to follow them so which side were your parents on?
0:27:17 > 0:27:18Completely against it.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23I was quite good at painting and drawing,
0:27:23 > 0:27:28and so of course my father said, "You should go to art school".
0:27:28 > 0:27:33I also had a great passion, when I was quite young, of costume.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36I thought costumes were quite interesting,
0:27:36 > 0:27:39and theatrical design I thought was interesting,
0:27:39 > 0:27:43so Dad sort of encouraged me in that direction
0:27:43 > 0:27:46and I went to Hornsey College of Art
0:27:46 > 0:27:49and did what was called a pre-diploma year at Hornsey,
0:27:49 > 0:27:52which I loved. I really loved it.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55But I knew that after about nine months of being there,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58I had to apply for a diploma,
0:27:58 > 0:28:03to get another three-year course and I was going to go into fine art
0:28:03 > 0:28:07and I just realised that I didn't like being on my own.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10It's a very solitary thing.
0:28:10 > 0:28:15And it sort of made up my mind, I wanted to go to drama school.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18And so at school when you weren't behind the bike sheds smoking,
0:28:18 > 0:28:20you did some drama.
0:28:20 > 0:28:22Yes, I did.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25The school that I went to had an open-air theatre
0:28:25 > 0:28:27and they would do plays in the summer there,
0:28:27 > 0:28:33and they would also do them in the gym hall, or whatever it was called,
0:28:33 > 0:28:36and I did the Admirable Crichton there,
0:28:36 > 0:28:39and I did As You Like It there.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42What did you play in As You Like It?
0:28:42 > 0:28:43SHE SCOFFS
0:28:43 > 0:28:44Rosalind?
0:28:44 > 0:28:45THEY LAUGH
0:28:47 > 0:28:49And did people immediately think you were good?
0:28:51 > 0:28:53I don't remember. I don't remember that bit.
0:28:53 > 0:28:57I think that's when my parents got worried, more than anything.
0:28:57 > 0:29:01That's when they got a bit nervous that I might be an actress.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05And they did try to talk you out of it, did they?
0:29:05 > 0:29:06Well...
0:29:08 > 0:29:09Yes, they did.
0:29:09 > 0:29:14In the sense, it's tough to be a woman in this business...
0:29:15 > 0:29:17Erm...
0:29:17 > 0:29:20if you don't fit a certain stereotype,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23what it was particularly in those days you had to be very pretty,
0:29:23 > 0:29:27you had to be very thin, or very, very, very good.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30And I don't think I was any of those things.
0:29:30 > 0:29:31My mother was also an actress,
0:29:31 > 0:29:35and also had known what a dispiriting thing it can be
0:29:35 > 0:29:39and as you started our interview with saying, it's very insecure,
0:29:39 > 0:29:40it would just...
0:29:40 > 0:29:43They knew that it would feed on my insecurities
0:29:43 > 0:29:46and that it wasn't going to be good for me.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49- And yet for some reason you were determined to do it.- Mmm.
0:29:49 > 0:29:52Is that because you thought you were good
0:29:52 > 0:29:54or you wanted to defy your parents?
0:29:55 > 0:29:57Erm...
0:29:57 > 0:30:01There must have been a bit of ego in there somewhere.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03I fell in love with the smell of it.
0:30:03 > 0:30:09I've also fell in love with the, not the academic side,
0:30:09 > 0:30:14but the discovery of a story, a play.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16The discovery of a character. The...
0:30:19 > 0:30:24The machinations, the ways of becoming somebody else.
0:30:24 > 0:30:28And that is a constant...
0:30:28 > 0:30:31A constant thing with me.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33But also if you were dyslexic,
0:30:33 > 0:30:37I've spoken to other dyslexic actors about this, that it freed you.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41It got you into stories in a way that you couldn't as a reader.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44I think that's right. I think it did.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47It's all so very...
0:30:48 > 0:30:51..romantic in a funny way. I think that's what first...
0:30:51 > 0:30:55My father always said, you're only in the theatre to dress up!
0:30:57 > 0:30:59Which was partly true.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02And that word that understandably annoys actors, "luvvie"
0:31:02 > 0:31:04that has come in in the last couple of decades,
0:31:04 > 0:31:09that idea of being very theatrical and calling everyone "darling".
0:31:09 > 0:31:10Are you that kind of actor?
0:31:12 > 0:31:14I don't know. You'd have to ask somebody else.
0:31:14 > 0:31:18I think this country has a kind of...
0:31:18 > 0:31:20There's a kind of anger
0:31:20 > 0:31:24that people can have a good time
0:31:24 > 0:31:27doing the thing that they love doing.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30When you go to America in particular,
0:31:30 > 0:31:32you go to France, Italy, Germany,
0:31:32 > 0:31:35there is a complete understanding that it is a craft,
0:31:35 > 0:31:41that it is a technique, that there is some kind of intelligence behind it.
0:31:41 > 0:31:43I think this country has a kind of weird...
0:31:45 > 0:31:49..view of the arts, in particular, and particularly actors.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52Once you decided you were going to go to drama school,
0:31:52 > 0:31:56did your parents give you tips of the "eat a banana during the interval
0:31:56 > 0:31:58"and don't deliver a line from behind a sofa" type?
0:31:58 > 0:32:00LAUGHTER
0:32:00 > 0:32:02No.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05My father was wonderful at notes.
0:32:05 > 0:32:10He would give me notes which were fantastic, and my mother too.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15My mother, Dad always said this, was probably a better actor than he was.
0:32:18 > 0:32:22But my father was fantastic at notes, really, really wonderful.
0:32:22 > 0:32:24Had you been the child of Richard Burton, say,
0:32:24 > 0:32:26there are lots of people called Burton,
0:32:26 > 0:32:28but Wanamaker is quite a distinctive name.
0:32:28 > 0:32:33Was it immediately recognised at drama school and casting directors and so on?
0:32:33 > 0:32:35Just before I left drama school,
0:32:35 > 0:32:37I thought maybe I should change my name.
0:32:39 > 0:32:41And I mentioned this to Dad and he said,
0:32:41 > 0:32:43"Why? Are you embarrassed about me?"
0:32:45 > 0:32:47And I thought that did it for me.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50The other thing is that I remember Vanessa Redgrave saying,
0:32:50 > 0:32:52if it can get my foot in the door...
0:32:54 > 0:32:57..then, you know, they don't have to hire me,
0:32:57 > 0:33:00so I thought, well, that's a good thing to remember.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04But it's a hard act when you know, in those days, people knew that
0:33:04 > 0:33:07Dad was the first method actor to come to this country,
0:33:07 > 0:33:12that there was a lot at stake to some extent and a lot of burden,
0:33:12 > 0:33:17which I'm sure every child of a famous parent has had to go through,
0:33:17 > 0:33:23that you have to somehow prove yourself even more
0:33:23 > 0:33:27that you're worthy of that name.
0:33:27 > 0:33:31Was there any ever bitchiness at drama school or in your early years
0:33:31 > 0:33:34in the business that there had been nepotism?
0:33:35 > 0:33:39No. Not that I can remember.
0:33:39 > 0:33:41There've been people, actors, coming up to me
0:33:41 > 0:33:45and poking me in the chest and saying, "your father!".
0:33:45 > 0:33:47There was a lot of that!
0:33:47 > 0:33:48LAUGHTER
0:33:52 > 0:33:56You went, quite early on, to the Royal Shakespeare Company for really quite a long time.
0:33:56 > 0:33:58It's uncommon now.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01People tend to do one or two productions.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04But the word is there in the title, Royal Shakespeare Company,
0:34:04 > 0:34:07but it really was, you signed up for a long time in those days.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10In those days you'd sign up for basically two years.
0:34:10 > 0:34:15My first job with the Royal Shakespeare Company was in 1976
0:34:15 > 0:34:17and then they asked me to go to Stratford,
0:34:17 > 0:34:20which I'd always wanted to do because it was a bit like Mecca.
0:34:20 > 0:34:25And I felt it was a place where I could study Shakespeare,
0:34:25 > 0:34:28I could study my craft,
0:34:28 > 0:34:33and so, in the end, I was with the Royal Shakespeare on and off for 12 years.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36And one of the breakthrough roles, significantly to me,
0:34:36 > 0:34:37was an American play -
0:34:37 > 0:34:41Once In A Lifetime by Moss Hart and George S Kaufman.
0:34:41 > 0:34:45It seems sensible casting to me, but were you conscious
0:34:45 > 0:34:49that you could bring out that side of your heritage?
0:34:49 > 0:34:52- I assume American accents are easier for you.- Yes.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55American accents are not difficult at all.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58I thank Barbara Streisand for that.
0:34:58 > 0:34:59In what way?
0:34:59 > 0:35:00Well...
0:35:02 > 0:35:05Funny Girl for me was sort of like,
0:35:05 > 0:35:10she was Jewish, she was American, she was funny,
0:35:10 > 0:35:13she was...sassy.
0:35:15 > 0:35:18And she wasn't "pretty".
0:35:18 > 0:35:19And so I related to that.
0:35:19 > 0:35:23Then along came Bette Midler, so I could relate to that.
0:35:23 > 0:35:28Women being slightly out of control and getting away with it.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30Which I loved.
0:35:30 > 0:35:36I think it was, instinctively, I felt with Once In A Lifetime
0:35:36 > 0:35:41that that character was somebody I knew very well.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45Was your father pleased that you were doing an American play
0:35:45 > 0:35:46or did it not register in that way?
0:35:46 > 0:35:49I never asked him.
0:35:49 > 0:35:53He did say once though my American accent was dreadful.
0:35:53 > 0:35:55LAUGHTER
0:35:55 > 0:35:56Yes.
0:35:56 > 0:36:01So I always have a coach now when I'm doing an American play.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03Although you have done a lot of them.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07Arthur Miller, All My Sons, Crucible, Tennessee Williams, Clifford Odets.
0:36:07 > 0:36:12Another important role early on, Piaf by the late Pam Gems sadly now.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15Jane Laportaire played the title role.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19You were in a supporting role, but a good one, a good part.
0:36:19 > 0:36:20Toine.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24Pam Gems based it on a book,
0:36:24 > 0:36:28I think that Piaf's half-sister wrote, that was a new play,
0:36:28 > 0:36:32and we improvised on the script a little bit,
0:36:32 > 0:36:37and we created I think a lovely piece of work, a really good piece of work.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40And although you were in the Royal Shakespeare Company,
0:36:40 > 0:36:43even at that stage you were beginning to be picked out as a star
0:36:43 > 0:36:46and an individual and the awards happened very quickly,
0:36:46 > 0:36:49because there was the Olivier Award for Once In A Lifetime, which is pretty impressive.
0:36:49 > 0:36:54You were a young actress. Did you think this is really taking off?
0:36:54 > 0:36:56No.
0:36:56 > 0:37:01I think, I think that season, it was '78, '79 season.
0:37:01 > 0:37:06It was the first time I didn't put my hands across my chest,
0:37:06 > 0:37:08or in my pockets or...
0:37:08 > 0:37:13So that something happened in my head
0:37:13 > 0:37:19which was more concentrated than I'd probably been.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21That took eight years out of drama school!
0:37:21 > 0:37:22LAUGHTER
0:37:26 > 0:37:30I then went back to New York and did Loot, which got...
0:37:30 > 0:37:32A Joe Orton play, another nomination.
0:37:32 > 0:37:37And then I did Awake And Sing!, which is Clifford Odets.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41And so, but always working with the most fantastic actors,
0:37:41 > 0:37:43I had the most wonderful time.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45Oh, and of course Electra.
0:37:45 > 0:37:46Yes.
0:37:46 > 0:37:49Electra, which was great to be on Broadway with.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53People queuing around the block - for Sophocles.
0:37:53 > 0:37:54That was so exciting.
0:37:54 > 0:37:57Shakespeare, as you say, you'd gone to the Royal Shakespeare Company
0:37:57 > 0:38:01to try to learn that, but then that began to take off.
0:38:01 > 0:38:06Twelfth Night, Othello - the big Shakespeare roles started to come.
0:38:06 > 0:38:11I was playing Emelia which was a lovely production by Trevor Nunn,
0:38:11 > 0:38:12with Ian McKellen and Willard White,
0:38:12 > 0:38:16Imogen Stubbs, Michael Grandage - I could go on.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18So that was great too.
0:38:18 > 0:38:22And by that stage, you were feeling at home in Shakespeare?
0:38:23 > 0:38:27Yes. I mean, when I get stuck with Shakespeare, I always ask.
0:38:28 > 0:38:29But to be honest, you know,
0:38:29 > 0:38:33the most difficult Shakespeares are not on the women's side.
0:38:33 > 0:38:39We go into the history plays really to get the trickiest bits of Shakespeare, I think.
0:38:39 > 0:38:42Ah! We've jumped forward now to one of my favourite of your productions
0:38:42 > 0:38:45which was just a few years ago, Much Ado About Nothing,
0:38:45 > 0:38:48with Simon Russell Beale at the National Theatre.
0:38:48 > 0:38:50A Nicholas Hytner production.
0:38:50 > 0:38:55In that, I think you have one of the hardest lines in all of Shakespeare,
0:38:55 > 0:38:58which is the scene where Benedict says,
0:38:58 > 0:39:02"I will do anything for you" in effect, and she says,
0:39:02 > 0:39:04- "Kill Claudio".- "Kill Claudio".
0:39:04 > 0:39:05Which is an astonishing line.
0:39:05 > 0:39:09So you're in a comedy and then it becomes a tragedy,
0:39:09 > 0:39:13or potentially one, but that must be one of the hardest lines there is.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17No. I don't think so.
0:39:19 > 0:39:24I think the hardest lines for Beatrice were cut, thank God!
0:39:24 > 0:39:26Which was at the beginning of the play,
0:39:26 > 0:39:32which are Elizabethan jokes, which, you know, you don't understand.
0:39:32 > 0:39:37It's about Cupids and poignards and God knows what else,
0:39:37 > 0:39:40and Nick Hytner was right saying, we won't even try these
0:39:40 > 0:39:44because it's in the first beat of the play,
0:39:44 > 0:39:46half the audience will be going,
0:39:46 > 0:39:51"Er, where's the dictionary? Erm, what does this mean?"
0:39:51 > 0:39:57And you stop an audience from enjoying and understanding or listening.
0:39:57 > 0:40:02So thank God those lines had gone, but "kill Claudio" is the most beautiful...
0:40:02 > 0:40:08That scene between Beatrice and Benedict is one of the most...
0:40:08 > 0:40:13wonderful love scenes I... It's just glorious.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18And we didn't have to rehearse very much because we both understood it,
0:40:18 > 0:40:21and it's the first time that they admit that they love each other,
0:40:21 > 0:40:25and at the same time she's asking him to kill this man,
0:40:25 > 0:40:28but I know where it comes from, you know where it comes from,
0:40:28 > 0:40:30because the story has gone before us
0:40:30 > 0:40:32and it either gets a laugh from the audience
0:40:32 > 0:40:37because it's quite funny - and it's also very shocking.
0:40:37 > 0:40:38And that's why...
0:40:38 > 0:40:42I saw it twice, that production, but you got a gasp, which I think...
0:40:42 > 0:40:43Is the best.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46I think if it doesn't work, you do get a laugh from the audience.
0:40:46 > 0:40:51- If it works properly, it's chilling, as it was in that production.- Yeah.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54I don't remember the reaction but sometimes if kids laughed,
0:40:54 > 0:40:58usually it's kids, but that's good.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01That's a kind of a gasp in a way.
0:41:01 > 0:41:02THEY CHUCKLE
0:41:02 > 0:41:04Beginnings in TV,
0:41:04 > 0:41:07which is how it works I suppose, you are just trying to get in to it,
0:41:07 > 0:41:10so Village Hall, Crown Court, those kind of things.
0:41:10 > 0:41:13It's just you go up for what there is, really,
0:41:13 > 0:41:15just try to get into it.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18My first one was called Sally For Keeps.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21You know, there was a religious slot
0:41:21 > 0:41:26and I worked with Barbara Leigh Hunt and I was very method at that time,
0:41:26 > 0:41:29in a way still am, but that was really method.
0:41:29 > 0:41:34Just explain. Method, which your father had been, is,
0:41:34 > 0:41:38and this is to parody it, but if you're playing a butcher,
0:41:38 > 0:41:41you go and try to be a butcher if you can.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44You try to get as close as you can to the reality of it.
0:41:44 > 0:41:47Yes. And it's also, erm...
0:41:47 > 0:41:52You have to be ready to say what you have to say,
0:41:52 > 0:41:56emotionally and imaginatively,
0:41:56 > 0:42:00so you have to be the character to some extent,
0:42:00 > 0:42:04and allow it to come
0:42:04 > 0:42:07from an emotional base and an intellectual base,
0:42:07 > 0:42:10so that the concentration, you have to really concentrate
0:42:10 > 0:42:13and transform yourself into that human being.
0:42:13 > 0:42:17It could be self-indulgent, but it can be brilliant.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19When you say even now, to some extent, you're method,
0:42:19 > 0:42:22but if you're playing Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing,
0:42:22 > 0:42:25then how can you apply the method to that?
0:42:25 > 0:42:29You could apply it in all sorts of ways.
0:42:29 > 0:42:35You can't become an unmarried woman on the shelf,
0:42:35 > 0:42:37because you weren't, for example?
0:42:37 > 0:42:42No, but I nearly was an unmarried woman on the shelf.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44Ah! So you can go back to what you...?
0:42:44 > 0:42:48You can relate to that, it's just finding the sense memory
0:42:48 > 0:42:52of what those experiences were or could be.
0:42:52 > 0:42:57It's a fascinating, and I think most actors do it instinctively.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02But there is a deeper way, the American method,
0:43:02 > 0:43:04now by Lee Strasberg,
0:43:04 > 0:43:08went, you know, as when I did My Week With Marilyn...
0:43:08 > 0:43:10This is an amazing production.
0:43:10 > 0:43:12In My Week With Marilyn, you play Paula Strasberg,
0:43:12 > 0:43:14Marilyn Monro's acting coach,
0:43:14 > 0:43:17wife of Lee Strasberg, the pioneer of method,
0:43:17 > 0:43:19which your father had been part of,
0:43:19 > 0:43:23so that was a direct connection to the theatre he came from.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26Absolutely.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29I couldn't find very much about Paula on the internet
0:43:29 > 0:43:31or indeed anywhere else.
0:43:31 > 0:43:37I only had one friend who was a publicist in New York who,
0:43:37 > 0:43:43when I mentioned it, he's 89, and he said, "Oh no, not that woman!"
0:43:43 > 0:43:46It was fascinating only because it was part of
0:43:46 > 0:43:50my parents before I was born stuff,
0:43:50 > 0:43:53so they were both there at Lee Strasberg's,
0:43:53 > 0:43:56at the beginning of the Lee Strasberg school,
0:43:56 > 0:44:01so that connection was wonderful in that way,
0:44:01 > 0:44:03so that I was back in that era.
0:44:03 > 0:44:04Paula?
0:44:04 > 0:44:06Christ!
0:44:06 > 0:44:08I don't get it.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11Such a strange man, I think she'd have already figured out
0:44:11 > 0:44:15- he only invited her here to sleep with her.- So, what is the...?
0:44:15 > 0:44:17The reason Marilyn can't remember the line
0:44:17 > 0:44:21is because she doesn't believe the situation her character is in.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Then she should pretend to believe it.
0:44:24 > 0:44:25Pretend?
0:44:25 > 0:44:28We're talking about the difference between the truth
0:44:28 > 0:44:31- and artificial crap. - We agree. Acting is about truth.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33If you can fake that, you'll have a jolly good career.
0:44:33 > 0:44:35Maybe we should try for another take.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37Marilyn needs time to give a great performance.
0:44:37 > 0:44:41Give her as long as it takes. Chaplin took eight months to make a movie.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43Eight months of this?
0:44:43 > 0:44:45I'd rather kill myself.
0:44:45 > 0:44:48We were talking about the development of a TV career.
0:44:48 > 0:44:49Love Hurts, 1992,
0:44:49 > 0:44:52Laurence Marks, Maurice Gran,
0:44:52 > 0:44:55which was your first co-starring
0:44:55 > 0:44:58- co-lead, I suppose, wasn't it, on TV?- Yes.
0:44:59 > 0:45:00Thank God.
0:45:09 > 0:45:12It won't turn off. The pop-up waste is stuck.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16The whole flat's a disaster. I bought it off a do-it-yourself
0:45:16 > 0:45:19with the mechanical aptitude of a subnormal prawn.
0:45:19 > 0:45:20We didn't install this, love.
0:45:21 > 0:45:22What do you mean?
0:45:22 > 0:45:26You said you bought this from us? But we don't stock this model.
0:45:26 > 0:45:28Tsk, tsk. You fibbed, didn't you?
0:45:28 > 0:45:29No, no!
0:45:29 > 0:45:33Yes. I was desperate. You were the only plumber who answered the phone.
0:45:33 > 0:45:35I've a reception in Mayfair in an hour! Please!
0:45:37 > 0:45:38All right.
0:45:38 > 0:45:41Go and get dressed, I'll sort it out.
0:45:41 > 0:45:44Adam Faith. Now, he's reputed to be a bit of a character,
0:45:44 > 0:45:47but what was he like to work with?
0:45:47 > 0:45:49Adam was extremely bright.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51Extremely bright.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53Absolutely charming.
0:45:53 > 0:45:57Erm, but his mind was
0:45:57 > 0:46:00all over, I mean, he...
0:46:00 > 0:46:03His hyperactive mind, all the time.
0:46:03 > 0:46:04He was...
0:46:04 > 0:46:06annoying and...
0:46:06 > 0:46:09a really good actor.
0:46:09 > 0:46:11He could be really good, if he concentrated
0:46:11 > 0:46:13and that was really good.
0:46:13 > 0:46:17- I'd also done a Paradise Postponed before that.- Ah, John Mortimer.
0:46:17 > 0:46:22With a John Mortimer script, which was also fascinating.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26That was a really good bit of filming as well. I really enjoyed that.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30Now, one of the roles for which you will always be remembered,
0:46:30 > 0:46:32My Family started in the year 2000.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35Susan Harper, dentist's wife,
0:46:35 > 0:46:38when you were first offered that, did you see the...
0:46:38 > 0:46:42You wouldn't have thought 11 years, but did you see potential?
0:46:42 > 0:46:45No.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49What I saw was actually quite a funny script, the first ones,
0:46:49 > 0:46:52because it was quite quirky, something I hadn't seen before.
0:46:52 > 0:46:57It was also written by Fred Barron initially, as an American.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59I was going to say, this is another weird connection
0:46:59 > 0:47:02because it was the first Anglo-American comedy, in effect,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05because they brought Fred Barron in from American TV
0:47:05 > 0:47:08to try to create a kind of American domestic drama
0:47:08 > 0:47:12so there you were, an Anglo-American actress in an Anglo-American sitcom.
0:47:12 > 0:47:17It was, the humour was a little bit more off-the-wall,
0:47:17 > 0:47:19which I enjoyed.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22You know, it was somebody who watched I Love Lucy
0:47:22 > 0:47:24and Mary Tyler Moore shows.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28To me, that was slightly more in my, in my direction.
0:47:28 > 0:47:32We didn't know from one series to another whether it would get,
0:47:32 > 0:47:34the BBC would pick it up or not.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37I was watching that first episode again and it is,
0:47:37 > 0:47:40it's very much in the American sitcom style.
0:47:40 > 0:47:42There's a scene where you and Robert Lindsay are in bed
0:47:42 > 0:47:45and you've been to another dentist.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48- Oh...- And they have a conversation about whether
0:47:48 > 0:47:51the technique and equipment of the other dentist were superior
0:47:51 > 0:47:53but it's obviously about two things.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56But that seemed to me, looking at it again,
0:47:56 > 0:47:58very, that's very kind of American sitcom.
0:47:58 > 0:48:00Yeah. Yeah.
0:48:00 > 0:48:03I like that. It's quick.
0:48:03 > 0:48:06It's quick, it's fast, it's...
0:48:06 > 0:48:10It was quite witty, because he had to stick his tongue down my throat
0:48:10 > 0:48:12to check on the fillings. Is that the one?
0:48:12 > 0:48:13Ha! I think that's great.
0:48:13 > 0:48:14'That's sexy!
0:48:14 > 0:48:17'It's sexy and odd, you know? It's good.'
0:48:17 > 0:48:19You know, I read somewhere
0:48:19 > 0:48:22that the older you get, the less sleep you need.
0:48:25 > 0:48:29Really? What are you supposed to do with all that extra time?
0:48:29 > 0:48:30I've got a few ideas.
0:48:32 > 0:48:34Well, I'm always open to ideas.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37That's not true, but I'm not going to argue.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55- Oh, my God.- What's wrong?
0:48:55 > 0:48:57That molar. Upper right five.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00- What about it?- The cracked filling, you've had it repaired.
0:49:04 > 0:49:07'11 years, though, that,'
0:49:07 > 0:49:08the risk is boredom, isn't it?
0:49:08 > 0:49:13Sitcoms...famously, the situation doesn't change very much.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16It's not the boredom, actually.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19It's usually, it's always to do with the writing.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22It's always to do with...
0:49:22 > 0:49:24the storylines and the writing.
0:49:25 > 0:49:29That's why I came into this world in the first place,
0:49:29 > 0:49:32the interest in new work and new writing,
0:49:32 > 0:49:35and the writing sometimes wasn't...
0:49:38 > 0:49:41..witty enough, it wasn't following
0:49:41 > 0:49:44that kind of humour that was...
0:49:44 > 0:49:48initially attracted it to me in the first place.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51And that's when it starts to become frustrating.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54But mathematically, over 11 years, there are only so many times
0:49:54 > 0:49:57he can think she's having an affair or she can think he is.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59- That's right.- That's the problem.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02- There aren't that many possible situations.- No. There's the...
0:50:02 > 0:50:06- What's the story? That there are only seven stories?- Yeah.
0:50:06 > 0:50:08Or something like that!
0:50:08 > 0:50:12This new level of public recognition, I assume this was when,
0:50:12 > 0:50:15like walking down the street, going to the supermarket,
0:50:15 > 0:50:17you realise you're in a TV hit.
0:50:17 > 0:50:19Oh, yes. That was Love Hurts.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21That was the first time it happened to me,
0:50:21 > 0:50:24quite dramatically, really.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27Somebody had a minor car accident.
0:50:27 > 0:50:30So it, you know, that's a shock.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33- What, they saw you and drove...? - Well, they did a double take
0:50:33 > 0:50:38and I think they bumped into another car. It wasn't a major thing, but...
0:50:38 > 0:50:40- I'd love to have seen the insurance form.- I know!
0:50:40 > 0:50:44He filled in, "I saw her from Love Hurts in the street..."
0:50:44 > 0:50:48I know. But that's when you realise the power of television.
0:50:48 > 0:50:50I mean, it was then, you know,
0:50:50 > 0:50:53how many millions of viewers and then it starts,
0:50:53 > 0:50:56now it's started to get smaller and smaller and smaller,
0:50:56 > 0:51:00so a good audience is now what? 4 million? 6 million?
0:51:00 > 0:51:03I don't know. It used to be 12, 18.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06When My Family came to an end,
0:51:06 > 0:51:08were you angry or did you just accept it?
0:51:10 > 0:51:11Well, no, I wasn't...
0:51:13 > 0:51:16To be honest, I was just angry as to how they handled it,
0:51:16 > 0:51:19that was all, really, more than anything.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22And, um, I don't mind.
0:51:22 > 0:51:2411 years is a good, long run
0:51:24 > 0:51:26and it was great fun when we were doing it,
0:51:26 > 0:51:28we worked together really well,
0:51:28 > 0:51:31we enjoyed it, we enjoyed each other's company...
0:51:31 > 0:51:34There was a hint that they thought,
0:51:34 > 0:51:37they pretty much said it had got tired and was too cosy, didn't they?
0:51:37 > 0:51:39No, all I got was that
0:51:39 > 0:51:44the BBC didn't want to have any more middle-class sitcoms,
0:51:44 > 0:51:48which was kind of shooting yourself in the foot, really,
0:51:48 > 0:51:50as a statement, because
0:51:50 > 0:51:54along comes Miranda Hart, who is the most wonderful...
0:51:54 > 0:51:56And she's not exactly working class.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58You also famously,
0:51:58 > 0:52:02you discovered that Mr Lindsay was getting paid more than you.
0:52:02 > 0:52:04Oh, wow. Yes, that was a long time back.
0:52:04 > 0:52:07I feel very strongly
0:52:07 > 0:52:09that women should be paid the same.
0:52:12 > 0:52:13And that's that.
0:52:13 > 0:52:16I mean, I've always felt there's an equality,
0:52:16 > 0:52:17there should be an equality.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20Woman's rights should be...
0:52:20 > 0:52:23So yes, I did find that out.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26I found that...demeaning.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28So when you go into, say, a West End play,
0:52:28 > 0:52:34do you insist that you are paid the same as a male co-star?
0:52:34 > 0:52:36It varies, depends on the play.
0:52:36 > 0:52:40It depends on the play and it depends on the production. It depends on...
0:52:40 > 0:52:43It always depends on who's more famous than the other.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46You know? And who's left and who's right of the poster.
0:52:46 > 0:52:49So in All My Sons, the Arthur Miller with David Suchet,
0:52:49 > 0:52:52was he officially more famous than you, or...
0:52:52 > 0:52:54Definitely.
0:52:54 > 0:52:56Well, Poirot is such a...
0:52:56 > 0:52:59Because in Poirot, he's Poirot and you are Ariadne Oliver.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02- Yes.- Although of all the roles to play in Poirot,
0:53:02 > 0:53:05apart from Poirot, which wasn't available to you,
0:53:05 > 0:53:08it's a fascinating one, that, isn't it? Because clearly
0:53:08 > 0:53:12it is a self-portrait by Agatha Christie of a crime writer,
0:53:12 > 0:53:16which is therefore one of her most interesting characters, I think.
0:53:19 > 0:53:21Oh! Sorry! Sorry!
0:53:21 > 0:53:24- Good gracious! It's you, Monsieur Poirot.- Madame Oliver!
0:53:24 > 0:53:27- What are you...? - I'm so sorry.- But what was it?
0:53:27 > 0:53:29An apple core. Won't do any harm.
0:53:29 > 0:53:32- What are you doing in the sticks? You don't live here, do you?- No.
0:53:32 > 0:53:36No, you live in that awful Modernist place in town.
0:53:36 > 0:53:37So it's a murder!
0:53:37 > 0:53:39Right.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41- Not my hostess, I hope. - Well, who is your hostess?
0:53:41 > 0:53:43She lives somewhere around here.
0:53:45 > 0:53:48A place called Laburnums. Any idea where it is?
0:53:50 > 0:53:52I love Ariadne Oliver.
0:53:52 > 0:53:57I think when I first was asked to do it,
0:53:57 > 0:54:01David gave me a book,
0:54:01 > 0:54:03to read about Agatha,
0:54:03 > 0:54:05and you can see why
0:54:05 > 0:54:09she created this character.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11It's really against herself. She's...
0:54:11 > 0:54:15talks too much, she makes assumptions,
0:54:15 > 0:54:18she's...eccentric,
0:54:18 > 0:54:20she changes her hair all the time,
0:54:20 > 0:54:24I mean, Agatha has written a most wonderful human being
0:54:24 > 0:54:27and such an antithesis to him.
0:54:27 > 0:54:28It's great.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31In theatre, you've achieved what I think all people want to do,
0:54:31 > 0:54:34which is to alternate classics and new plays.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36They've come along at various times.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38Terry Johnson's Dead Funny,
0:54:38 > 0:54:42- which was an extraordinary marital farce, very dark marital farce.- Hmm.
0:54:42 > 0:54:44But you did that, and then a few years later,
0:54:44 > 0:54:46you did Euripides' Electra.
0:54:46 > 0:54:48That's the ideal balance, I suppose, is it?
0:54:48 > 0:54:51To go between classics and new plays.
0:54:51 > 0:54:53It's fabulous.
0:54:53 > 0:54:55It's...
0:54:55 > 0:54:56That's why I want to be an actor.
0:54:56 > 0:55:01And with, obviously, it's a draining and emotional play, Electra.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04Are you one of those actresses who can switch it on and off?
0:55:04 > 0:55:05No.
0:55:07 > 0:55:10These women do stay with you,
0:55:10 > 0:55:11particularly Electra.
0:55:11 > 0:55:16I think she had to be put in a box at one point.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18Because you'd taken too much of it?
0:55:18 > 0:55:22Because I think, yes, they can be emotionally exhausting,
0:55:22 > 0:55:25and Electra being one of them,
0:55:25 > 0:55:27not surprisingly.
0:55:27 > 0:55:30No, I did have to find a way of actually
0:55:30 > 0:55:33not letting myself...
0:55:34 > 0:55:36..be with her all the time.
0:55:36 > 0:55:38It's funny how these things...
0:55:38 > 0:55:40It's all...a mystery.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44That's what interesting, maybe that's...
0:55:44 > 0:55:46Does this sound pretentious?
0:55:46 > 0:55:49- Try.- I don't know, it's just,
0:55:49 > 0:55:52sometimes it is a mystery to actors themselves
0:55:52 > 0:55:57what happens to them as people
0:55:57 > 0:56:00when they work on something.
0:56:00 > 0:56:02And maybe that's why...
0:56:02 > 0:56:05the English like to call them luvvies.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08But I don't care.
0:56:08 > 0:56:11I mean, I really don't mind, because that is part of its...
0:56:11 > 0:56:15that's part of its fascination, I think, theatre, really.
0:56:15 > 0:56:19It's a common complaint of actresses in the latter parts of their career
0:56:19 > 0:56:20that the roles are not there,
0:56:20 > 0:56:24partly because the classical roles,
0:56:24 > 0:56:27the senior classical roles are better for men than women,
0:56:27 > 0:56:28you have to accept it, don't you?
0:56:28 > 0:56:30Yeah.
0:56:30 > 0:56:33Yeah, you do. Which is sad.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35Um...
0:56:35 > 0:56:38It's a fact. You just have to face it
0:56:38 > 0:56:42and get people to write more
0:56:42 > 0:56:44for women of a certain age,
0:56:44 > 0:56:46over 40 would help.
0:56:48 > 0:56:51There are two things you said several times during this interview,
0:56:51 > 0:56:54that you're not very bright and not very attractive,
0:56:54 > 0:56:56but is that a shtick or is that,
0:56:56 > 0:56:58do you really feel insecure about those things?
0:57:00 > 0:57:03Well, that's probably a very bad habit.
0:57:03 > 0:57:04Erm...
0:57:06 > 0:57:08I think that's what I felt in my youth.
0:57:10 > 0:57:11A lot.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15I didn't feel that I fitted into a norm.
0:57:15 > 0:57:17And...
0:57:19 > 0:57:24You just, come on, you have to accept who you...what you look like.
0:57:24 > 0:57:27And I suppose I do, to some extent, now.
0:57:27 > 0:57:31And it works on screen, clearly, doesn't it? Your face.
0:57:31 > 0:57:32Yeah. I hope so.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35Well, it has by now, anyway.
0:57:35 > 0:57:39The traditional final question for actors, which we touched on already,
0:57:39 > 0:57:41are there specific roles you have in mind
0:57:41 > 0:57:43or will you just wait and see what comes along?
0:57:43 > 0:57:47No, I have no specific roles in mind,
0:57:47 > 0:57:48at all.
0:57:51 > 0:57:54That's the fun of it, I suppose.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57And you can, there's no retirement age either, but you would go on,
0:57:57 > 0:58:00if the roles come, you'll go on as long as you can?
0:58:00 > 0:58:03Yeah, gosh, yes!
0:58:03 > 0:58:07We like what we do, and it's not a hobby.
0:58:07 > 0:58:09It's, it's an ongoing...
0:58:12 > 0:58:15..discovery, I think, in a way,
0:58:15 > 0:58:18and also, I suppose,
0:58:18 > 0:58:21you want things that you haven't done before.
0:58:24 > 0:58:26Yeah.
0:58:26 > 0:58:29- Zoe Wanamaker, thank you.- Thank you.
0:58:52 > 0:58:55Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd