:00:00. > :00:00.challenge. Clive will be here at ten o'clock with a full round-up of the
:00:00. > :00:07.day's news. It is time for a special programme from newspeak, My Lesbian
:00:08. > :00:09.Mums. This is the moment
:00:10. > :00:17.my mums made history, becoming the first lesbians
:00:18. > :00:18.to marry in Scotland. But it wasn't plain sailing for them
:00:19. > :00:21.to get down the aisle. Hi, my name's Jillian,
:00:22. > :00:24.and 20 years ago my mum I was only four at the time,
:00:25. > :00:30.so it really wasn't such a great deal for me,
:00:31. > :00:32.but I have learnt from my parents that it might have been a bit more
:00:33. > :00:36.difficult for some of my siblings. So I'm going to go on a journey
:00:37. > :00:39.and speak to my brother and two of my elder sisters to see what it's
:00:40. > :00:42.been like for them. I'd also quite like to find out
:00:43. > :00:46.what it's like nowadays and if it's easier for parents to come out
:00:47. > :00:48.to their children. My family is very open,
:00:49. > :00:50.but there are some things More mummies than
:00:51. > :00:53.an Egyptian pyramid. I know some found
:00:54. > :00:57.it hard, but how hard? Society had made me believe that
:00:58. > :01:00.that was such a bad thing. VOICEOVER: And see if our mums think
:01:01. > :01:06.they've changed anything. I remember my mum sat me
:01:07. > :01:09.and my brother down, and she asked People will say to us, "Oh,
:01:10. > :01:14.it's so easy for gay couples now compared to "what it used to be,
:01:15. > :01:17.you know, you're totally accepted." VOICEOVER: If, 20 years later,
:01:18. > :01:21.some parents still struggle coming I don't know any other gay couples
:01:22. > :01:26.that have a dad that You feel bad cos they were being
:01:27. > :01:34.bullied because of you, Yeah, or you could have my
:01:35. > :01:58.new drink - raw, organic, unfiltered cider vinegar,
:01:59. > :02:00.it's very good for you. VOICEOVER: And this is the house
:02:01. > :02:06.where our family grew up. My mum moved in here
:02:07. > :02:10.with Gerrie 17 years ago. With Gerrie came three
:02:11. > :02:16.big sisters for me. So, here we have some pictures of me
:02:17. > :02:29.and my brother, Jamie. My favourite one on this
:02:30. > :02:32.is the picture of us posing up here, because my mum always tried to make
:02:33. > :02:34.us be all happy He was the only boy
:02:35. > :02:39.in the house, apart from Rupert So, I think I'm going to start my
:02:40. > :02:44.journey off by speaking to him. I think it will be quite interesting
:02:45. > :02:47.to see what it's like from a male perspective in a house
:02:48. > :02:55.full of women. And I remember, I remember Gerrie
:02:56. > :03:00.coming over to the house quite a lot, and Elaine being there,
:03:01. > :03:02.playing football with her in the back garden a lot,
:03:03. > :03:06.but not really knowing what it was. And then it was when obviously
:03:07. > :03:08.Mum and Dad split up. "This
:03:09. > :03:16.is what's happening." I feel like you always find just,
:03:17. > :03:22.like, the funny side of things. You knew how to just make a joke
:03:23. > :03:26.of things and not get sad and angry. Always got to look on the bright
:03:27. > :03:29.side of life, as they say. Like, I remember, what was that
:03:30. > :03:32.card that you got Mum? Was it for her birthday
:03:33. > :03:34.or something? Terrible, terrible
:03:35. > :03:42.joke, when I look back at that. 14-year-old me found it hilarious,
:03:43. > :03:45.but 28-year-old me, not so much. Something I would tell all my
:03:46. > :03:48.friends about your yearbook is... More mummies than
:03:49. > :03:51.an Egyptian pyramid. See, it's just
:03:52. > :03:54.good to find a joke. I don't think I remember anybody
:03:55. > :04:00.staring at us I think we just, I mean, we were so oblivious to that
:04:01. > :04:03.sort of thing, because it Getting a free dinner,
:04:04. > :04:09.cannae beat it. I don't remember hearing any
:04:10. > :04:15.whispers or hearing any... There was no, like, all looking
:04:16. > :04:26.around, "Is anyone watching us?" "Let's go out for dinner, let's not
:04:27. > :04:32.care what other people think." I also really liked how Mum
:04:33. > :04:35.and Gerrie just held hands and... I feel like there's not
:04:36. > :04:42.enough people doing that. If you're expecting me
:04:43. > :04:46.to hold your hand right now you've No, but I
:04:47. > :04:52.know what you mean. I think I've started seeing
:04:53. > :04:54.more people who have come out or whatever,
:04:55. > :04:56.holding hands, and all Yeah, but back then it
:04:57. > :05:01.wasn't such a big thing. What would your response be
:05:02. > :05:04.to people who don't agree with the way that we have
:05:05. > :05:06.been brought up? Why take the time out
:05:07. > :05:08.to...sort of chastise Yeah.
:05:09. > :05:12.I know. I mean, we wouldn't do
:05:13. > :05:16.that to other people. No.
:05:17. > :05:17.Definitely not. And we've been very lucky
:05:18. > :05:20.in the sense that nobody Yeah.
:05:21. > :05:23.Definitely. Mmm.
:05:24. > :05:25.But, aye, it's just... There should be more love
:05:26. > :05:31.in the world, not any more hating. JAMIE LAUGHS
:05:32. > :05:32.Definitely. JILLIAN LAUGHS
:05:33. > :05:38.Good boy. VOICEOVER: I think Jamie found it
:05:39. > :05:40.easier because he had He was confident enough to say
:05:41. > :05:44.in his first introduction, There are four years
:05:45. > :05:49.between Jamie and me. Maybe being the youngest
:05:50. > :06:04.made it easier. Elaine's a really
:06:05. > :06:06.cool sister to have. She's a singer and
:06:07. > :06:08.writes her own music. But, being a few years older
:06:09. > :06:11.than Jamie, she might remember our two families coming
:06:12. > :06:16.together in more detail than we do. Do you remember your
:06:17. > :06:18.mum coming out to you? I was sitting in the living room
:06:19. > :06:23.and there was a card sitting on the couch from Susan to my mum,
:06:24. > :06:26.saying how much she loved her, Because...
:06:27. > :06:35.Complete news to me. Like, I would remember exactly
:06:36. > :06:38.what I was upset about, and it turned out I was,
:06:39. > :06:40.like, the last person And all her friends
:06:41. > :06:44.were actually girlfriends, so... I just remember that
:06:45. > :06:46.day finding out. I remember being in my school
:06:47. > :06:48.uniform, I remember How old were you?
:06:49. > :06:50.Erm... I think with you it was probably
:06:51. > :06:56.a friend thing until she was too scared to tell you.
:06:57. > :06:58.I was so young. I was just kind of like, "Meh, OK."
:06:59. > :07:02.I think that's the difference. If you're tiny, you can
:07:03. > :07:04.tell kids these things. We don't understand
:07:05. > :07:07.what the difference is. Yeah, they love each other,
:07:08. > :07:13.that's all we need to know. It's interesting to hear
:07:14. > :07:16.how different it is for That's just because the society
:07:17. > :07:19.made me believe that that was such a bad thing,
:07:20. > :07:22.and that's kind of the last thing I remember about it,
:07:23. > :07:27.about that discussion. Elaine was a bit upset
:07:28. > :07:33.when she realised, because she was a little
:07:34. > :07:35.bit older and... I think it was just
:07:36. > :07:38.sorting out in her head. I think she felt as though I should
:07:39. > :07:41.have told her earlier and... So, you can't always
:07:42. > :07:43.get the timing right. And I do regret that, that I hadn't
:07:44. > :07:48.told her sooner, more explicitly. we're fine with that now,
:07:49. > :07:51.but it has taken time to... How do you know when the time
:07:52. > :08:02.is right for each individual person? But Elaine had more to deal
:08:03. > :08:04.with than just her mum One of her sisters came out
:08:05. > :08:09.when she was a teenager. Marie wasn't able to take part
:08:10. > :08:12.in this documentary. I thought I knew about my sister
:08:13. > :08:15.being a lesbian before I found out about my mum,
:08:16. > :08:19.and I was totally fine with that. For some reason it was a bigger deal
:08:20. > :08:23.because it was my mum, Awful, it was just constantly,
:08:24. > :08:30.which I've been reminded of, just walking down the halls
:08:31. > :08:32.and people shouting, "Oh, I would just keep walking,
:08:33. > :08:37.and it was constant. And I don't think I told anyone
:08:38. > :08:41.about my mum and Susan, apart from my close friends,
:08:42. > :08:44.because I got so much abuse Yeah, no, why would you even put
:08:45. > :08:49.yourself through that? I didn't talk to anybody
:08:50. > :08:51.about anything. Do you think that's
:08:52. > :08:56.why you were so shy? Yeah, cos I just feel like I lost
:08:57. > :08:59.every bit of confidence. ELAINE LAUGHS
:09:00. > :09:20.SHE EXHALES THEY LAUGH
:09:21. > :09:32.Erm... Yeah, I think everything changes
:09:33. > :09:34.when you leave school. I didn't realise how hard
:09:35. > :09:40.it was for you, because, like, we were just at different points
:09:41. > :09:45.in our life back then. It's probably quite good,
:09:46. > :09:47.though, to show that that's how you actually felt,
:09:48. > :09:49.like, and it's not No, it wasn't all happy,
:09:50. > :09:53.but I just find I wish I could talk about things without crying,
:09:54. > :09:55.because then you can Literally just can't
:09:56. > :10:00.get it out otherwise. VOICEOVER: Elaine struggled
:10:01. > :10:02.a lot more than I did, and it's clear there's not one right
:10:03. > :10:05.way to tell your children. It must have been tough
:10:06. > :10:08.on our mums though. All five of us were at different
:10:09. > :10:12.stages of our lives. It was about each of them
:10:13. > :10:17.individually, and getting time with them and feeling
:10:18. > :10:20.that the timing was right. For me my fear was that, yeah,
:10:21. > :10:26.the children would be bullied. My two tell me that they didn't
:10:27. > :10:29.face anything like that. They really felt totally
:10:30. > :10:32.accepted and that our family Although Jillian recently told us
:10:33. > :10:39.that there were some remarks from schoolmates about having
:10:40. > :10:41.two lesbian mothers. That was news to me,
:10:42. > :10:45.so I think at the time she probably was protecting us to some extent,
:10:46. > :10:49.you know, that we didn't You know, although people
:10:50. > :10:52.will say to us, "Oh, it's so easy for gay couples now
:10:53. > :10:55.compared to what it used to be, "you know, you're totally
:10:56. > :10:58.accepted," we are not, Because there are still a lot
:10:59. > :11:04.of parts of society across the world that, I know it's illegal
:11:05. > :11:07.in different countries still, or even in this country, you know,
:11:08. > :11:11.if you belong to a particularly religious group, whatever
:11:12. > :11:15.background that might be, I'm not pointing the finger at one
:11:16. > :11:18.or another, that might say And, I mean, I've had some
:11:19. > :11:25.horrendous stuff on social media... From strangers, yeah,
:11:26. > :11:31.being called an abomination and other names like that
:11:32. > :11:34.and I think, "You don't know me, "you don't know us,"
:11:35. > :11:36.and I have a wonderful family, cos every single one of those kids
:11:37. > :11:40.are wonderful and are a bonus. They're a gift to society
:11:41. > :11:45.and to the world, every And one of them, my eldest sister
:11:46. > :11:54.Anne, is running a successful About to get a taxi to go see Anne,
:11:55. > :12:09.and I cannot wait to see her. BELLS CHIME
:12:10. > :12:16.Can't hear you! SHE SCREAMS
:12:17. > :12:27.SHE LAUGHS So, what do any sisters do
:12:28. > :12:32.when they've not seen I never lived with her,
:12:33. > :12:39.because she was at university We rarely talk about the time before
:12:40. > :12:43.we were just one family, but it's so hot, so time
:12:44. > :12:47.for some rooftop drinking. I see through them that absolutely
:12:48. > :12:51.anything is possible. I think it would be different if
:12:52. > :12:55.people were horrible to me or if... Yeah, if I was bullied because of it
:12:56. > :12:58.or I felt different, no, because I think I was,
:12:59. > :13:01.like, 17 or 18, I was at university. It was actually kind of cool
:13:02. > :13:08.to have lesbian parents. And it was like the whole
:13:09. > :13:11.time of Friends and Ross. And I was like, "Hey,
:13:12. > :13:17.my new mum's called Susan too! Yeah, I think
:13:18. > :13:20.for my mum as well, for having such young children,
:13:21. > :13:23.I think that would have been You don't know what fears
:13:24. > :13:29.are in your head and what Because you don't know
:13:30. > :13:34.legally if you can lose and...
:13:35. > :13:38.or "Can someone complain?" "What's the school
:13:39. > :13:40.system going to say?" As much as my grandparents knew,
:13:41. > :13:42.none of their friends knew, and they were so worried
:13:43. > :13:44.about what their friends' reaction was going to be,
:13:45. > :13:47.and I remember my mum sat me and my brother down and she asked
:13:48. > :13:50.if I was embarrassed by her. And I just, we were both just like,
:13:51. > :13:55."Don't be so stupid. I think there's still
:13:56. > :13:58.a lot to change. I think maybe in another 20 years it
:13:59. > :14:03.will be completely different again, but I think our mothers have helped
:14:04. > :14:06.pioneering the change Knowing that our parents have helped
:14:07. > :14:13.at least one person in this world You look at other people that marry,
:14:14. > :14:20.and all the younger women and all the gay guys
:14:21. > :14:22.that they marry, it's just, I think isn't anything, like,
:14:23. > :14:25.knowing you're not alone? Massive respect for them,
:14:26. > :14:30.like, to have done Yeah, cos they really
:14:31. > :14:37.were the first. There was no-one around
:14:38. > :14:41.them to support them. But then it's a kind of strength
:14:42. > :14:43.of the relationship, in that they managed it together,
:14:44. > :14:46.they did it together. A lot of people wouldn't have been
:14:47. > :14:50.able to survive that, I don't think. So far you know how Jamie,
:14:51. > :14:57.Elaine and Anne dealt with being I lived with Gerrie for three years
:14:58. > :15:06.before I realised what a lesbian was, and that not everybody
:15:07. > :15:15.lived like us. I was sitting on the settee watching
:15:16. > :15:18.EastEnders with Jillian, and we... The woman who, Pam St
:15:19. > :15:25.Clement, who was playing And I had honestly never used
:15:26. > :15:33.the word lesbian with Jillian ever, and we were sitting on the settee,
:15:34. > :15:39.she was in between Gerrie and I, and she turned to me and said,
:15:40. > :15:42."Mummy, sure Pat in EastEnders And she stood, all
:15:43. > :15:46.this gesticulating... So I launched into a great tale
:15:47. > :15:51.of how important it is to have people in your life that love
:15:52. > :15:53.you and to have loving As humanists they conduct
:15:54. > :15:58.nonreligious ceremonies. And sometimes they meet couples
:15:59. > :16:02.who face the same challenges SAT NAV: Take exit 22
:16:03. > :16:09.to merge onto M77... Speaking to my brother
:16:10. > :16:12.and my sisters has been really eye opening and insightful,
:16:13. > :16:13.understanding that it's been Me being the youngest
:16:14. > :16:19.I was obviously so oblivious to how everybody felt,
:16:20. > :16:21.and obviously some people dealt with it a lot harder than others
:16:22. > :16:25.did, and I guess I was very lucky in the sense that I didn't
:16:26. > :16:29.struggle with it at all. Gerrie, my stepmum,
:16:30. > :16:31.actually married a gay couple not that long ago,
:16:32. > :16:34.who, by the sounds of things, are struggling an awful
:16:35. > :16:38.lot more than we were, so we are currently on our way now
:16:39. > :16:42.to go and visit them and have a chat with them and see what life
:16:43. > :16:54.is like for them. LAUGHTER
:16:55. > :17:07.We obviously knew. Yeah, it was fine, I just went too
:17:08. > :17:14.far on, I didn't take VOICEOVER: The Office
:17:15. > :17:19.for National Statistics estimates there are 9,000 same-sex couples
:17:20. > :17:21.in the UK with children to look after, so Tyler
:17:22. > :17:23.and India aren't alone. At no point we've sat them
:17:24. > :17:27.down and said, you know, "This is because Daddy wants to be
:17:28. > :17:31.with a man and, you know, India was quite young
:17:32. > :17:40.when we first met. So, she's kind of not,
:17:41. > :17:48.doesn't really remember anything. Tyler was a little older,
:17:49. > :17:51.but I think much the same, so it's always just been,
:17:52. > :17:53.you know, that "Daddy's going to live with Conor,"
:17:54. > :17:56.and we don't really make a big thing We had a lot of questions from them,
:17:57. > :18:03.you know, and we still do, you know, every now and again,
:18:04. > :18:09.you know, they come and usually at bedtime, I'll get, "Daddy,
:18:10. > :18:11.why do you kiss Conor, cos boys aren't
:18:12. > :18:13.supposed to kiss boys?" And, you know, we get
:18:14. > :18:15.those kind of comments every now and again,
:18:16. > :18:17.or, "Daddy, why do you sleep So, there's been a few times
:18:18. > :18:21.recently where Tyler in particular will, you know,
:18:22. > :18:23.he'll cry and he'll say, Yeah, you know, cos a lot
:18:24. > :18:38.of the time I come down the stairs, you know, and I put the brave face
:18:39. > :18:42.on when I'm with Tyler, Yeah,
:18:43. > :18:46.it is, you know, like, And I say it in the best way that
:18:47. > :18:51.I possibly can, but... It's tough.
:18:52. > :18:54.It's really tough. It's hard.
:18:55. > :18:55.Really tough. What do you think it will be
:18:56. > :18:59.like in high school for them? It's probably one of my biggest
:19:00. > :19:02.worries for the kids, because I don't know any other gay
:19:03. > :19:05.couples that have a dad that I think back to what it
:19:06. > :19:12.was like for me growing up at high school and,
:19:13. > :19:15.you know, kind of, even being gay It will probably be difficult,
:19:16. > :19:19.because it's kids, isn't it? The worst thing I think would be
:19:20. > :19:22.if something was happening, we didn't know about it
:19:23. > :19:25.and you would feel kind of helpless then, or you'd feel bad cos
:19:26. > :19:28.they were being kind of bullied I think that's the hardest thing,
:19:29. > :19:34.the guilt, I guess, that you're kind of helpless and you feel that you're
:19:35. > :19:42.the cause of it as well. It sounds like they've had a really,
:19:43. > :19:55.really, really tough time, but I just think Adam's so brave
:19:56. > :19:58.to have done what he's done, and it sounds like their kids are
:19:59. > :20:01.going to come up absolutely fine. I know they were saying
:20:02. > :20:06.that they worry a bit about what their kids
:20:07. > :20:09.are going to be like in high school, From what I saw I just know
:20:10. > :20:13.that they are going to have the best life and they're going to grow
:20:14. > :20:15.up so well. I suppose with Adam and Conor,
:20:16. > :20:23.just like my mums, parents - lesbian, gay or straight -
:20:24. > :20:26.just want to do what's So, I feel like I've learnt
:20:27. > :20:33.so much from every single member of my family,
:20:34. > :20:36.not only myself, but all of my From looking at Elaine, like,
:20:37. > :20:39.she's obviously struggled so much and she's come out so much better
:20:40. > :20:42.from this, she's such My brother, I mean,
:20:43. > :20:44.he's just my brother, he's the most amazing person,
:20:45. > :20:47.he's just great. And my sister Anne, I feel
:20:48. > :20:50.like she's taken the amazing qualities of my mother's and just
:20:51. > :20:52.created this worldwide And for my parents, well,
:20:53. > :20:59.they just taught me to be who I am and grow up and be the person that
:21:00. > :21:03.I am today, and I think they've I've just loved every single
:21:04. > :21:06.minute of this project. I feel like it's been the most
:21:07. > :21:10.enlightening experience - joyful, emotional, laughter,
:21:11. > :21:16.all sorts of emotions, Elaine definitely has
:21:17. > :21:19.struggled through school I think she's actually quite
:21:20. > :21:22.emotionally traumatised I don't think that was necessarily
:21:23. > :21:29.about having two mums. No, she said that she never actually
:21:30. > :21:32.told anyone in school because of how people reacted
:21:33. > :21:39.to her sister coming out. Just clearly a very
:21:40. > :21:44.unhappy time for her. Obviously I'm understanding more
:21:45. > :21:48.about it now, but where she is now, she's amazing and she's
:21:49. > :21:52.so beautiful and creative. Our biggest fear was
:21:53. > :21:59.losing our children... But the general consensus
:22:00. > :22:10.from all the children is that Aw!
:22:11. > :22:12.Aw! THEY LAUGH
:22:13. > :22:13.That's lovely. It was the
:22:14. > :22:23.hardest thing I ever did, was to... you know, tell you that
:22:24. > :22:25.I wasn't going to be living with your dad any more,
:22:26. > :22:28.you know, it's very hard. Us coming out and being together
:22:29. > :22:30.is not the way the book was written on life,
:22:31. > :22:35.but it's our truth and that, as a parent, that was the only
:22:36. > :22:39.thing that we could do, and give that to all of you,
:22:40. > :22:44.so even if that was hard