:00:09. > :00:10.Ian Richard Kyle Paisley had the most extraordinary career in
:00:11. > :00:30.Northern Ireland politics. From militant preacher and street
:00:31. > :00:38.protester... To occupying the highest political office in the
:00:39. > :00:42.land. Never, never, never! From raucous outsider to genial partner
:00:43. > :00:49.in government. His was a life lived in the public eye. I have known the
:00:50. > :00:55.Paisleys for over three decades. Lasted, Ian Paisley agreed to talk
:00:56. > :00:59.to me at length about his role in Northern Ireland's tempestuous and
:01:00. > :01:02.more tranquil years. These conversations reveal dramatic and
:01:03. > :01:10.dark secrets of the Democratic Unionist Party. The Scriptures tell
:01:11. > :01:14.us that so-called friends are probably secret enemies. They will
:01:15. > :01:20.force 's obituary writers to reassess his place in history. It
:01:21. > :01:25.was wrong. It wasn't one man, one vote. That's no way to run a
:01:26. > :01:30.country. These programmes will challenge many of his actions over
:01:31. > :01:34.the years. Is that acceptable? Is it good enough to talk about
:01:35. > :01:45.difficulties? It's all right for you to sit there and say that. These
:01:46. > :01:49.were serious days. They will unmask the hidden world of the Free
:01:50. > :01:54.Presbyterian Church and disclose how Ian Paisley's tenure as moderator
:01:55. > :01:58.ended. If that means I should be kicked in the gutter, kick me in the
:01:59. > :02:04.gutter. If that means I should be chased out of the church, and that I
:02:05. > :02:11.should be rejected as a reject, I have to bear that. That is part of
:02:12. > :02:16.the cross. The programmes will explain why, after years dedicated
:02:17. > :02:21.to smashing Sinn Fein, Ian Paisley ultimately did a deal with
:02:22. > :02:25.Republicans. If we had turned back, God help us, we don't know what we
:02:26. > :02:41.would have come to. How do you define yourself? Are you
:02:42. > :02:46.British, are you an Ulsterman, are you Irish, or are you a combination
:02:47. > :02:50.of all of these? I describe myself as a child of God first of all. I
:02:51. > :02:56.think that many of these things overlap in Amman's life. I know
:02:57. > :03:01.quite a number of Roman Catholic people who are very strongly
:03:02. > :03:07.unionist. I know other Protestant people who perhaps would say we
:03:08. > :03:13.should leave Britain and have a united Ireland. I think that there
:03:14. > :03:22.have been changes because of the make up of people. I'm not asking
:03:23. > :03:27.about other people but I'm asking about you, Ian Paisley. How would
:03:28. > :03:33.you define yourself? I don't need to define myself. I am already known.
:03:34. > :03:38.People have put a label on me, it could be a false label. Would you
:03:39. > :03:45.ever consider yourself in any sense Irish? I am not ashamed to be called
:03:46. > :03:49.an Irishman. I was down recently in Dublin and was entertained by the
:03:50. > :03:56.president. And taken in and treated like a buddy. There was a time where
:03:57. > :04:02.that would have been described as taking the soup. But if the soup was
:04:03. > :04:09.good why not take it? As a Ballymena man, if you get it for nothing, that
:04:10. > :04:15.is a bonus! Ian Paisley was born in 1926 in uncertain times, just five
:04:16. > :04:19.years after island was partitioned and governments established in
:04:20. > :04:25.Belfast and Dublin. His father, James, a Baptist minister in Armagh
:04:26. > :04:30.City, had been a member of Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteer Force is
:04:31. > :04:35.opposed to independence for Ireland. The political environment in the
:04:36. > :04:42.early 1920s was still volatile, as Ian Paisley's father was to find
:04:43. > :04:52.out. He was very jolly. Very happy man. And he had a little Austin 6
:04:53. > :05:01.car, which was quite a car. And he went around the country, visiting
:05:02. > :05:07.and preaching. After my birth, he was out visiting one night, and he
:05:08. > :05:14.ran into 50 men, all armed on the roadside. And they pulled him out of
:05:15. > :05:18.this thing and put him against the wall and they were going to shoot
:05:19. > :05:25.him. They were gunman who wanted a united Ireland, and they thought
:05:26. > :05:31.that my father was a danger to that. What they have known him? Yes, my
:05:32. > :05:36.father was very well-known. And then a man came in and he shouted and he
:05:37. > :05:41.said, "how do you touch this man? His wife has just had their second
:05:42. > :05:50.child and it would be very unlucky to us if we did this." So, they had
:05:51. > :05:54.a conference and they decided to let him go if you would never mention
:05:55. > :05:59.what he had seen. So the reason he got away was me because I had been
:06:00. > :06:05.born. So, you are the little miracle that arrived and saved his life?
:06:06. > :06:09.That's right, that's right, amazing! At the age of two, Ian Paisley's
:06:10. > :06:12.family moved from Armagh to Ballymena where his father was
:06:13. > :06:19.appointed minister to kill Street Baptist Church. -- Hill Street
:06:20. > :06:25.Baptist Church. It was his Scottish born mother Isabella who was
:06:26. > :06:29.responsible for his evangelical conversion. I was converted at a
:06:30. > :06:34.meeting that my mother was conducting among children. She was
:06:35. > :06:39.speaking on the good Shepherd giving his good life for the sheep. And I
:06:40. > :06:43.was touched greatly at that time, although I was only six years of
:06:44. > :06:49.age. At the end of the meeting, I said to my mother, "I would like to
:06:50. > :06:55.be -- I would not like to be a lost sheep, I'd rather be a saved lamb. "
:06:56. > :06:59., she said, " let's go to the church." So we went down, and it was
:07:00. > :07:06.at that seat that my mother got to meet Neal and appointed me to
:07:07. > :07:14.Christ. Did you go on holidays? Which always went on holidays. Where
:07:15. > :07:21.did you go? The place we went to was Killowen, outside Warrenpoint. Did
:07:22. > :07:26.you ever journey southwards? Did you ever go down to Carlingford? Oh,
:07:27. > :07:30.yes, I would have been to Carlingford. Did you naturally come
:07:31. > :07:36.into contact with the local Catholics there? I did, though aye.
:07:37. > :07:46.Did you mingle, easily? Yes, we prayed together, -- we played
:07:47. > :07:50.together. On the 12th of July, we went to Warrenpoint, and then we all
:07:51. > :08:01.went in August day to them to their place. So, did you march with the
:08:02. > :08:08.Hibernian is for the craic? No, they never let me in! After leaving the
:08:09. > :08:13.school at 16, Ian Paisley went to work on the farm family friend,
:08:14. > :08:24.George Watson in County Tyrone. I learned to plough, I learned to sew.
:08:25. > :08:28.The Bible entered my mind very much when I was there and I remember one
:08:29. > :08:33.day out in the field I stopped the powering. I got down on my knees and
:08:34. > :08:39.I told the Lord that I was willing to go where he wanted me to go, to
:08:40. > :08:44.say what he wanted me to say. And that to be a preacher of the gospel.
:08:45. > :08:50.And I then said to the man I was living with, I said, " next Sunday,
:08:51. > :08:58.I want to say a word at the church. " Which I did. I thought I could
:08:59. > :09:06.give a long sermon. It lasted for three minutes! So, it was a
:09:07. > :09:15.disaster. It was a humbling, a very humbling thing for me. Ian Paisley
:09:16. > :09:20.then moved to a school events -- to a school of evangelism in Wales to
:09:21. > :09:24.study theology. He quickly started to make a name for himself as a
:09:25. > :09:31.preacher before returning to Belfast to complete his studies. His first
:09:32. > :09:36.ministry was at Ravenhill Evangelical Mission Church in east
:09:37. > :09:38.Belfast. There he started organising revival missions and was soon
:09:39. > :09:46.attracting large crowds wherever he went.
:09:47. > :09:54.How did you end up being invited to preach in Crossgar? While, the
:09:55. > :09:59.committee of the Crossgar Mission Hall went to Ballymena during the
:10:00. > :10:07.great meeting... Missions I had there. And they were absolutely
:10:08. > :10:13.thrilled. And they then met me and said, "could you not come and do the
:10:14. > :10:18.same in Crossgar? " though this invitation came from a small Mission
:10:19. > :10:23.Hall, it was to have far reaching consequences for the local
:10:24. > :10:28.Presbyterian Church. The Mission Hall was too small. So they decided
:10:29. > :10:34.to ask the church for the use of the church hall. But then the kirk
:10:35. > :10:39.session of the church, which is the ruling body, decided they were going
:10:40. > :10:42.to have this mission and then, suddenly, the presbytery stepped in
:10:43. > :10:48.above their heads and closed the door of the church. I mean, it was
:10:49. > :10:57.something that should not have been done. This, in turn, led to a split
:10:58. > :11:02.from which emerged Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church.
:11:03. > :11:08.Congregations sprang up across Northern Ireland throughout the
:11:09. > :11:15.1950s. These new churches were started by people attracted to Ian
:11:16. > :11:21.Paisley's fundamentalist message. At a great cost, over 400 years ago,
:11:22. > :11:26.the martyrs and reformers and confesses broke the shackles of
:11:27. > :11:33.popish superstition and witchcraft and recovered the gospel in what is
:11:34. > :11:39.known in history as the great Reformation. I am a Reformation
:11:40. > :11:45.Protestant. Nobody escaped Yorath. Nobody. In 1959, you spoke of the
:11:46. > :11:50.Queen Mother and Princess Margaret in the following words when they had
:11:51. > :11:53.an audience with the Pope. You accuse them of committing spiritual
:11:54. > :11:59.fornication and adultery with the Antichrist. Wasn't that
:12:00. > :12:02.extraordinary? Oh, no, that was the language of
:12:03. > :12:06.Luther, that was the language of Calvin, that was the language of
:12:07. > :12:08.Protestantism. And I have no apology to make for my, for being a
:12:09. > :12:16.Protestant. Ian Paisley's attacks on the
:12:17. > :12:31.Catholic Church were becoming ever more confrontational.
:12:32. > :12:35.Denounced interim as adults Paisley, he was the focal point of the
:12:36. > :12:43.demonstration. In 1962 he even took his protest
:12:44. > :12:46.against Catholicism to the Vatican. I mean, they were trying to sell the
:12:47. > :12:49.thing that the Reformation was a mistake, that there's no Reformation
:12:50. > :12:52.Protestants now, there's no men that believe the Bible, the Bible, only
:12:53. > :13:03.the religion of Protestants, and they were very active and the time
:13:04. > :13:11.had come for a stand to be taken. Come 1963, Pope John XXIII dies.
:13:12. > :13:15.Yes. You are reported as having said,
:13:16. > :13:17."The Rom?ish man of sin is now in hell."
:13:18. > :13:19.Uh?huh. How could you stand over that
:13:20. > :13:21.remark? Well, I don't know whether I said
:13:22. > :13:27.that or not. Do you think I'm making that up?
:13:28. > :13:29.No, no, I think that people make up things and put them into my mouth
:13:30. > :13:33.and say them. Would that be your sentiment though,
:13:34. > :13:37.would that be the way you would think at that point in time about
:13:38. > :13:41.the death of the Pope, "the Rome-ish man of sin is in hell". Is that how
:13:42. > :13:43.you would have thought at that stage?
:13:44. > :13:52.No, I think that anybody who is not saved by the grace of God will be
:13:53. > :13:55.lost in hell forever. The spirit of Edward Carson, the
:13:56. > :13:58.father figure of unionism, ran in the veins of Ian Paisley in his
:13:59. > :14:06.opposition to Dublin's involvement in the affairs of Northern Ireland.
:14:07. > :14:09.As the Ulster and the loyalists shall walk...
:14:10. > :14:14.More and more he was identifying with individuals in the tradition of
:14:15. > :14:26.Carson. Foremost among these was a former policeman. District Inspector
:14:27. > :14:29.John William Nixon. Why was DI Nixon, a former police officer, a
:14:30. > :14:32.dissident Unionist in many ways? Yes. An MP. Why was Nixon so
:14:33. > :14:36.important in your life? Well, he was important in my life
:14:37. > :14:58.because he was the impersonation of the battle and what it really was
:14:59. > :15:02.about in Northern Ireland. And of course that was the... A stand taken
:15:03. > :15:05.against those that would take away our flag, would take away our
:15:06. > :15:08.position in the Union. But how prudent was it for you as an
:15:09. > :15:11.emerging young politician, clergyman, to be identified with a
:15:12. > :15:15.man against whom the allegations had been made that he had been involved
:15:16. > :15:18.in murder? And secondly, was it wise for somebody like you to be
:15:19. > :15:21.identified with him? Well, I liked the man that was
:15:22. > :15:27.prepared to stand up for what he believed in and I... Everything is
:15:28. > :15:30.said, was said about you in those days if you interfered with the
:15:31. > :15:34.Official Unionist people they felt that they would just snub you out,
:15:35. > :15:47.but some people were not going to be snubbed out.
:15:48. > :15:51.From now on Ian Paisley was regularly involved in one street
:15:52. > :16:00.protest or another against any expression of Irish nationalism. The
:16:01. > :16:05.tricolour was regularly flown in places like west Belfast. Ian
:16:06. > :16:09.Paisley protested against the presence of a green white and gold
:16:10. > :16:12.flag in the window of the Divis Street headquarters of the
:16:13. > :16:20.Republican Party and demanded that it be taken down. Rioting broke out
:16:21. > :16:27.and lasted for two nights when the Government capitulated and ordered
:16:28. > :16:30.the police to remove the flag. You knew the geography of the city
:16:31. > :16:33.better than anybody else? Yes.
:16:34. > :16:37.You walked the streets, you knew the people. Was it prudent of you to go
:16:38. > :16:43.into Divis Street in 1964 to remove a flag, from the Republican office
:16:44. > :16:49.there. Surely that was a pretty provocative thing to do?
:16:50. > :16:53.No, well I didn't remove anything. But you led the protest which urged
:16:54. > :16:55.that the flag be removed. Yes, yes.
:16:56. > :16:58.You can't exonerate yourself from it?
:16:59. > :17:03.Well, that was my attitude and I believe I was right in what I did.
:17:04. > :17:07.Despite the fact that you triggered a riot two nights in a row and that
:17:08. > :17:11.people got injured, was that prudent...
:17:12. > :17:18.I never. The riot was rioting, the people who rioted are the people
:17:19. > :17:21.will have to pay for that, not me. Ian Paisley's line of attack was now
:17:22. > :17:22.two-fold: the defense of Protestantism and bolting the door
:17:23. > :17:29.on Dublin. An invitation to Stormont in 1967 by
:17:30. > :17:32.Northern Ireland's Prime Minister Terence O'Neill to his Irish
:17:33. > :17:33.counterpart, Taoiseach Jack Lynch, provided another opportunity for Ian
:17:34. > :17:51.Paisley to protest. Was it not the convention of the
:17:52. > :17:53.time that neighbour, neighbourly prime ministers would be invited
:17:54. > :17:56.from country to country? No, no.
:17:57. > :18:00.Was that not... Was that not normal? There was a time, know perfectly
:18:01. > :18:03.well, there was a time that no Unionist would have been invited to
:18:04. > :18:05.Dublin and no "Shinners" or others would have been invited from Dublin
:18:06. > :18:16.to here. In opposing what Ian Paisley saw as
:18:17. > :18:18.the Protestant churches embrace of ecumenism, the mainstream
:18:19. > :18:20.Presbyterian's annual general Assembly at Church House became a
:18:21. > :18:29.regular target. In 1966 Ian Paisley led a march to
:18:30. > :18:32.the Assembly through the predominantly nationalist area of
:18:33. > :18:38.Cromac Street with almost predictable consequences.
:18:39. > :18:43.Why, Mr Paisley, did you feel compelled to protest against the
:18:44. > :18:47.meeting of the General Assembly in 1966?
:18:48. > :18:52.Because I always had a protest. Well, I always had a protest...
:18:53. > :18:55.Why? Because that was part of our
:18:56. > :18:59.exposure of what was happening in the Assembly.
:19:00. > :19:01.What was worrying you about their behaviour at that point in time
:19:02. > :19:04.though? Well, there was certainly a very
:19:05. > :19:12.strong ecumenical movement abroad in the Church in those days.
:19:13. > :19:14.But did you not know that there was always the potential, the danger for
:19:15. > :19:18.trouble... No, I never...
:19:19. > :19:21.When you engaged in these street protests?
:19:22. > :19:25.If you're trying to justify today what was done at Cromac Street, you
:19:26. > :19:27.need to go and talk to the people who were responsible for that, not
:19:28. > :19:33.to me. Also in 1966 Ian Paisley launched
:19:34. > :19:43.his own newspaper, the Protestant Telegraph, to spread his political
:19:44. > :19:52.and religious message. His firebrand oratory in attacking the Catholic
:19:53. > :19:57.Church was uncompromising. We are going to keep the
:19:58. > :20:02.thoroughfares open for our Protestant heritage.
:20:03. > :20:04.Mr Paisley, you are reported after a rally in 1968 as saying the
:20:05. > :20:07.following: "Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with
:20:08. > :20:10.petrol bombs. Catholic churches were attacked and burned because there
:20:11. > :20:15.were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners."
:20:16. > :20:20.Uh?huh. Did you say that? Did you believe that?
:20:21. > :20:24.I don't know. I have no memory of saying that, but it was true that
:20:25. > :20:28.there were guns in the churches, and it was true that there was men in
:20:29. > :20:33.the Roman Catholic churches who used the churches as a safe place to
:20:34. > :20:35.hide. But were you directly implicating
:20:36. > :20:40.priests in concealing guns in churches and giving cover to IRA men
:20:41. > :20:46.in churches? Well, I said what I said. I have
:20:47. > :20:48.nothing to add to it. You also said that the massive
:20:49. > :20:51.discrimination in employment and allocation of public housing for
:20:52. > :20:54.Catholics existed because 'they breed like rabbits and multiply like
:20:55. > :20:59.vermin'; would you stand over that today?
:21:00. > :21:03.Well, I have no record of that on what I said.
:21:04. > :21:06.Do you think you might have said it? No, I don't think I would have said
:21:07. > :21:10.it. I don't. You were reported as having said it?
:21:11. > :21:12.Aye, well, I mean they would have reported anything.
:21:13. > :21:13.Addressing a crowd in Loughgall in County Armagh...
:21:14. > :21:17.Yes. You are reported as having said the
:21:18. > :21:21.following, "I am anti?Roman Catholic but God being my judge I love the
:21:22. > :21:31.poor dupes who are ground down under that system."
:21:32. > :21:36.Yes, so I do. I love them and I want to bring them to a place of freedom
:21:37. > :21:38.in the Gospel, the same way as I love the Protestants.
:21:39. > :21:43.And you're not walking away from that statement?
:21:44. > :21:47.Well, if I said it I would, I have no apology to make for saying it,
:21:48. > :21:51.but I don't know where you get these quotes from, some of them are...
:21:52. > :21:53.You are well reported, sir. Well reported, aye, and over
:21:54. > :21:57.reported. "The Provisional IRA is the military
:21:58. > :21:59.wing of the Roman Catholic Church", you said at one stage?
:22:00. > :22:04.Yes. Did you genuinely believe that?
:22:05. > :22:08.Well, it was, it's true. It stands true in history, they have been the
:22:09. > :22:14.people at the Church of Rome used to forward their interests, yes.
:22:15. > :22:16.I want to give you another little colourful quote.
:22:17. > :22:20.Yes, yes. "The dog will return to its vomit,
:22:21. > :22:24.the washed sow will return to its wallowing in the mire, but by God's
:22:25. > :22:31.grace we will never return to Popery again. No Pope here". 1982.
:22:32. > :22:35.That's right. Yes, that's... Wasn't that very colourful?
:22:36. > :22:40.Yes, very colourful, very right. You do, you don't expect me to go to
:22:41. > :22:45.Rome, do you? Are you trying to convert me?
:22:46. > :22:52.In the mid 1960s a student led protest began in Northern Ireland
:22:53. > :22:55.with Queen's University as its hub. This campaign was influenced by the
:22:56. > :23:01.civil rights movement in America, which was demanding equal rights for
:23:02. > :23:04.black people. Here the demands were for equal voting rights for
:23:05. > :23:11.Catholics, equal job opportunities and the fair allocation of housing.
:23:12. > :23:16.This civil rights movement was Ian Paisley's next target. A
:23:17. > :23:19.counter-demonstration organized by Ian Paisley against a civil rights
:23:20. > :23:33.march, in Armagh City in November 1968 resulted in serious rioting.
:23:34. > :23:35.Everything has been done by the police to hinder the rightful
:23:36. > :23:48.Assembly of Protestants. Less than two weeks later, amidst a
:23:49. > :23:51.worsening situation, the modernising Prime Minister Terence O' Neill went
:23:52. > :23:55.on television and pledged change and reform but did not concede one man
:23:56. > :24:08.one vote, a fundamental demand for of the civil rights movement.
:24:09. > :24:14.Ulster stands at the crossroads. I believe you will know me well enough
:24:15. > :24:21.now to appreciate that I am not a man given to extravagant language
:24:22. > :24:27.but bully boy tactics we saw in Armagh are no answer to these grave
:24:28. > :24:30.problems. What they incur for as the contempt of Britain and the world.
:24:31. > :24:33.To this day Unionist politicians rarely admit to discrimination
:24:34. > :24:36.against Catholics or that the regime of the time rigged and gerrymandered
:24:37. > :24:44.electoral boundaries to its advantage.
:24:45. > :24:46.Places like Derry and Fermanagh, where there were Nationalist
:24:47. > :24:49.majorities, the Council was still controlled by Unionists numerically.
:24:50. > :24:56.Was that fair? No, it wasn't fair. A fair
:24:57. > :25:03.Government is that every man has the same power to vote for what he
:25:04. > :25:07.wants. In Dungannon in 1963 there were over
:25:08. > :25:11.300 families on the waiting list for a house and no Catholic had been
:25:12. > :25:14.allocated a permanent house for 34 years. How acceptable was that?
:25:15. > :25:18.That wasn't acceptable at all, so it wasn't.
:25:19. > :25:24.Was that British justice? No, it wasn't justice at all. Then
:25:25. > :25:28.those that put their hands to that were, have to carry some of the
:25:29. > :25:33.blunt and blame for what has happened in our country.
:25:34. > :25:39.What do you mean by that? Well, simply what I mean. I mean
:25:40. > :25:43.that if you vote down democracy you're responsible for bringing in
:25:44. > :25:44.anarchy and they brought in anarchy and they set family against family
:25:45. > :26:00.and friend against friend. In Derry's Guild Hall in 1967
:26:01. > :26:02.Unionists held 60% of the seats. Yet Unionism had only 32% of the
:26:03. > :26:05.vote. Yes.
:26:06. > :26:10.Did you think that was fair? No. There should be, but that's the
:26:11. > :26:16.way it was. The whole system was wrong, it wasn't one man, one vote.
:26:17. > :26:19.I mean, that's no way to run any country, there should be absolute
:26:20. > :26:25.freedom and there should be absolute liberty.
:26:26. > :26:29.What might be baffling and puzzling, Mr Paisley, to many people listening
:26:30. > :26:33.to what you have just said, is why you were so determined to oppose the
:26:34. > :26:36.demand for one man, one vote as advocated by people like John Hume
:26:37. > :26:41.and Austin Currie at that point in time?
:26:42. > :26:46.Because the Civil Rights Movement was a movement that actually was a
:26:47. > :26:50.united Ireland movement. How can you say that?
:26:51. > :26:53.Well, that's what they were doing. They were associating themselves
:26:54. > :26:59.with a battle that the ordinary decent, law-abiding Protestant could
:27:00. > :27:04.not associate themselves with. How can you say that? Weren't John
:27:05. > :27:07.Hume and Austin Currie, and people like them, simply asking for British
:27:08. > :27:10.civil rights, the rights to vote? Yes.
:27:11. > :27:14.What was wrong with that? Those were British rights. How can you say that
:27:15. > :27:16.they were associating with the united Ireland or the united
:27:17. > :27:19.Irelanders if they were simply asking for British civil rights, the
:27:20. > :27:22.right to vote? Because the Civil Rights Movement
:27:23. > :27:25.was tied up with threats and was tied up with other things, it wasn't
:27:26. > :27:29.only in that. Did you see it as a front for a
:27:30. > :27:33.united Ireland then? Yes, it was part of the, part of the
:27:34. > :27:36.overall cauldron that was burning and was being heated by various sort
:27:37. > :27:48.of sections of the community to get their own way. The frequency of
:27:49. > :27:54.civil rights marchers in various towns and cities throughout Northern
:27:55. > :27:58.Ireland in pursuit of reform culminated in the battle of the
:27:59. > :28:04.Bogside in Derry City in August 1969. Faced with a beleaguered Royal
:28:05. > :28:08.Ulster Constabulary, the British government sent troops onto the
:28:09. > :28:19.streets for only the second time since the inception of the state.
:28:20. > :28:26.Ian Paisley was relentless in his verbal attacks on Terence O'Neill,
:28:27. > :28:33.portraying him as feeble. His support was growing in a restless
:28:34. > :28:37.unionist community. His popularity was further enhanced in the wake of
:28:38. > :28:46.two spells in jail arising from his street agitation. In 1969, Terence
:28:47. > :28:50.O'Neill resigned as Prime Minister. The following year, Ian Paisley
:28:51. > :28:54.replaced him as the Stormont MP for Bannside and, months later, he won
:28:55. > :29:05.the Westminster seat for North Antrim. Ian Richard Kyle Paisley,
:29:06. > :29:08.7981. In 1971, Ian Paisley formed his own political party, the
:29:09. > :29:12.Democratic Unionist Party, along with Desmond Boal, a barrister and
:29:13. > :29:17.Unionist MP, who had been one of Terence O'Neill's harshest critics.
:29:18. > :29:24.This was the start of a very long friendship. These were turbulent
:29:25. > :29:31.days in Northern Ireland. Bloody Sunday was a watershed. What was
:29:32. > :29:36.your reaction when you heard about 13 people having been shot dead on
:29:37. > :29:44.the streets of Derry on 30 of January 1972? Oh, I was very angry
:29:45. > :29:47.that that is what it had come to. I felt it was a very dangerous thing.
:29:48. > :29:59.And then an attempt to cover it for what it was not. I mean, the enquiry
:30:00. > :30:04.afterwards proved that some of these people, they had neither weapons nor
:30:05. > :30:10.were they using weapons, they were just making a protest within the
:30:11. > :30:14.law. Were you a bit embarrassed, though, when David Cameron
:30:15. > :30:17.ultimately 35 years later apologised and said in Parliament that the
:30:18. > :30:23.killings were unjustified and wrong? I wasn't embarrassed. I was
:30:24. > :30:28.glad to hear him for the first time as a British leader telling the
:30:29. > :30:37.truth about it. Saying what really did happen. Worried by the
:30:38. > :30:41.escalating violence and exasperated by the pace of political reform,
:30:42. > :30:44.London suspended the Northern Ireland government and took control
:30:45. > :30:52.of security, introducing direct rule for the first time. A conference of
:30:53. > :30:57.the British and Irish governments and local parties, but not the DUP,
:30:58. > :31:03.met at Sunningdale in England to work out how political power could
:31:04. > :31:07.be restored. Agreement was reached to set up a power-sharing executive
:31:08. > :31:13.giving nationalists cabinet positions for the first time. This
:31:14. > :31:17.accord also aimed at giving the Irish government and ongoing input
:31:18. > :31:23.in the affairs of Northern Ireland. The creation of this new
:31:24. > :31:25.administration in 1974, headed by the Ulster Unionist Party leader
:31:26. > :31:37.Brian Faulkner, triggered another crisis. What was so wrong with the
:31:38. > :31:40.idea of the SDLP and the Alliance Party, and members and
:31:41. > :31:44.representatives of the Catholic nationalist community being in
:31:45. > :31:48.government, being part of an administration, really Northern
:31:49. > :31:53.Ireland? Well, the people of Northern Ireland made that choice,
:31:54. > :31:58.that would be fine with me, but they didn't make that choice. This was
:31:59. > :32:02.something being forced on us. What do you say to your critics and the
:32:03. > :32:07.critics of that time who would argue that the opposition to a Council of
:32:08. > :32:11.Ireland, to any involvement of Dublin in the affairs of Northern
:32:12. > :32:16.Ireland, was a smoke screen to stop Catholics having any power in the
:32:17. > :32:22.government of Northern Ireland? I don't accept that at all in the
:32:23. > :32:25.sense that you are saying they are saying it. They wanted to destroy
:32:26. > :32:33.Northern Ireland and the people in Westminster were in it up over their
:32:34. > :32:41.heads. They wanted rid of us, too, so they did.
:32:42. > :32:53.Ian Paisley's tone was growing increasingly belligerent.
:32:54. > :32:58.A loose coalition of dissident Unionist politicians, Protestant
:32:59. > :33:05.workers and loyalist paramilitary 's, including the militant Ulster
:33:06. > :33:08.Defence Association, came together, intent on destroying the new
:33:09. > :33:14.power-sharing administration. Their action became known as the Ulster
:33:15. > :33:22.Workers' Council Strike. Ian Paisley played a central role.
:33:23. > :33:28.How did you feel, though, about sitting down with Andy teary, the
:33:29. > :33:35.leader of the Ulster Defence Association, given that his people
:33:36. > :33:38.were on the streets, involved in wholesale intimidation, forcing
:33:39. > :33:41.people to close down their businesses, stopping people from
:33:42. > :33:48.going to work, and going about their daily duties as a citizen, as a
:33:49. > :33:56.Democrat? I was sitting at a table, not to talk to people like that. And
:33:57. > :34:03.the situation was just simply this - we had to get this thing finished
:34:04. > :34:14.with, and I certainly believed that there was a merit... There was a
:34:15. > :34:18.merit in having a Council strike. And did you not feel this was a
:34:19. > :34:22.violation of make a violation of democracy from your perspective if
:34:23. > :34:26.people were taking the law into their own hands, or you essentially
:34:27. > :34:32.challenging the very essence of rule of law? I was not. I use saying that
:34:33. > :34:35.the people who asked on the street, call blocking roads, who were
:34:36. > :34:41.seizing cars, are you saying they were OK? You're putting out a broad
:34:42. > :34:48.thing and just think everybody that took part in this was a lawless
:34:49. > :34:54.person, and were prepared to break the law. That is not so. And they
:34:55. > :34:59.didn't break the law. The country went on, the country went on. It's
:35:00. > :35:09.businesses went on. It's tomography went on. -- its democracy went on.
:35:10. > :35:13.But it was not business as usual. 60% of businesses ended up paralysed
:35:14. > :35:21.with the power station workers bringing life close to a standstill.
:35:22. > :35:25.Worse was to follow. Loyalist Parliamentary is now switched their
:35:26. > :35:35.focus to the Republic of Ireland, killing 33 people into Mac attacks.
:35:36. > :35:42.-- in two attacks. On May 17, 1974, bombs went off in Dublin and
:35:43. > :35:50.Monaghan. Just how much of a shock was that to your system? Well, I was
:35:51. > :35:58.shocked. Very much shocked that there was anyone going to be heard
:35:59. > :36:07.in that way. But, I mean, who brought that on themselves was the
:36:08. > :36:12.people that... That own political leaders and they had endorsed in
:36:13. > :36:17.what their attitude to Northern Ireland. And, at that time, the
:36:18. > :36:24.attitude of the southern government in Northern Ireland was ridiculous,
:36:25. > :36:28.so it was. Are you saying the bombing of Dublin and Monaghan was
:36:29. > :36:31.justified because of the political action of the Irish government
:36:32. > :36:36.supporting a Council of Ireland? I don't believe in killing and never
:36:37. > :36:40.have. That me ask you, when those bombings took place in Dublin,
:36:41. > :36:45.blamed on the Ulster Volunteer Force, did you think about walking
:36:46. > :36:52.away from the strike? I had nothing to do with that. I had nothing to do
:36:53. > :36:58.with that and I'd announced the people who had done it. What more
:36:59. > :37:01.could I do? Surely you connected those bombs that exploded in Dublin
:37:02. > :37:06.with what was going on in the streets of Northern Ireland? Did you
:37:07. > :37:15.consider walking away from the strike in the interest of maybe
:37:16. > :37:22.stopping other killings? I took my stand. I denounced what was wrong. I
:37:23. > :37:28.could not say to the people, "just to sit down and let them put a rope
:37:29. > :37:33.around your neck." 11 days later, the Faulkner led
:37:34. > :37:37.power-sharing executive collapsed. Ian Paisley and the Ulster Workers'
:37:38. > :37:42.Council had achieved their goal. If you are not prepared to govern
:37:43. > :37:49.Northern Ireland, like any other part of the United Kingdom, then let
:37:50. > :37:57.the Ulster people do their job for themselves!
:37:58. > :38:02.The IRA, meanwhile, stepped up its campaign at home and in Britain.
:38:03. > :38:04.With direct rule restored, Northern Ireland lurched from crisis to
:38:05. > :38:08.crisis and from atrocity to atrocity, with the rival
:38:09. > :38:15.paramilitary organisations bombing and shooting. In London, Ian Paisley
:38:16. > :38:21.was increasingly seen as part of the problem. There are those who would
:38:22. > :38:25.have charged if you kept stirring the pot. Jim Callaghan accused you
:38:26. > :38:31.of using the language of forecast in a biblical mould. Edward Heath
:38:32. > :38:34.called you a demagogue and a wrecker. Roy Mason remembered you a
:38:35. > :38:37.demagogue and a wrecker. Roy Mason remembered US and overshoot bully
:38:38. > :38:44.and a poisonous beget. What do you say to those allegations? I just
:38:45. > :38:48.laughed at them. They did a lot for Northern Ireland, so they did, they
:38:49. > :38:53.did a lot for Northern Ireland. And when I read that stuff now, and you
:38:54. > :39:03.read it to me, I really have a chuckle because I certainly didn't
:39:04. > :39:08.think I was doing so well. Ian Paisley led a second strike in 1977
:39:09. > :39:13.demanding tougher action against the IRA and a return to Unionist
:39:14. > :39:17.majority rule at Stormont. Use of the great decisions were
:39:18. > :39:22.taken by elected leaders but to, yet, there were hundreds of UDA men
:39:23. > :39:26.on the street who weren't elected by anyone. They were affiliated with
:39:27. > :39:32.people who are killing, with people who were lying in jail convicted of
:39:33. > :39:35.murder. Where did that sit with you as a Democrat? Or you
:39:36. > :39:40.uncomfortable? Did it ever occur to you that you wished you haven't been
:39:41. > :39:45.affiliated with those people? The people we were working with, the
:39:46. > :39:51.majority of them were men with clean hands and right spirits. And, of
:39:52. > :39:58.course, in any situation like this, you would have a degree of
:39:59. > :40:02.difficulty. And we had our difficulties but I think that we
:40:03. > :40:08.came out of them well. Is that acceptable? Is it good enough? It's
:40:09. > :40:12.all right for you to sit there and me to sit here in comfort at this
:40:13. > :40:22.time and said that these were serious days. We have the Kingsmill
:40:23. > :40:28.massacre. We have all of these things coming in. Surely, the time
:40:29. > :40:35.had come when people had to take the risk of their own lives. So, all I
:40:36. > :40:39.am saying, I take my hat off to the people of Northern Ireland who
:40:40. > :40:51.stood, and stood well, in a very ethical situation. -- in a very
:40:52. > :40:55.difficult time. This time, the strike did not attract support.
:40:56. > :41:02.Despite a pledge to quit public life if it failed, the DUP leader
:41:03. > :41:08.continued his agitation. The arrival of a new Conservative government in
:41:09. > :41:14.May 1979, headed by Margaret Thatcher and encouraged Unionists to
:41:15. > :41:20.expect a tough IRA stance. Where there is discord, may we bring
:41:21. > :41:25.harmony. If there is -- may where there is doubt, may we bring faith.
:41:26. > :41:32.Where there is despair, may we bring hope. Only two months earlier, a
:41:33. > :41:35.close adviser and hardline Northern Ireland's spokesman Airey Neave had
:41:36. > :41:40.been murdered by Republicans. Had you believe she would be a good
:41:41. > :41:44.friend to Northern Ireland? Yes, I thought she would be a good friend
:41:45. > :41:48.to Northern Ireland but I was sadly disappointed.
:41:49. > :41:53.On a single day in the first months of misses that Chuck's premiership,
:41:54. > :41:57.the IRA killed the Queen's Club is in old Mountbatten and some members
:41:58. > :42:00.of his family at Michael Moore in the Republic and 18 soldiers at
:42:01. > :42:11.narrow water near Warrenpoint, County Down. But this mounting
:42:12. > :42:15.violence failed to call Anglo-Irish relations. In 1980, the Prime
:42:16. > :42:20.Minister flew into Dublin to be embraced by the controversial
:42:21. > :42:23.T-shirt Charles J Haughey. Out of that historic meeting urged an
:42:24. > :42:29.agreement to conduct joint studies on areas of common interest. This
:42:30. > :42:35.became known as the totality of relationships, a development which
:42:36. > :42:39.was anathema to Ian Paisley. How much of a betrayal did you feel that
:42:40. > :42:41.was by Mrs Thatcher when she went to Dublin, embraced Charles J Haughey
:42:42. > :42:50.and engaged in this arrangement, this agreement?
:42:51. > :42:54.I think that it really stirred people that here we have the Prime
:42:55. > :43:02.Minister going in and having this sort of "love-in" with the South. I
:43:03. > :43:06.don't think that she should have been negotiating with Dublin at all
:43:07. > :43:09.on the future of this part of the United Kingdom.
:43:10. > :43:15.This hardened the DUP leader's resolve. He embarked on a series of
:43:16. > :43:18.actions in the style of his role model Edward Carson, the Unionist
:43:19. > :43:23.leader who had led the resistance to Irish Independence at the start of
:43:24. > :43:26.the 20th century. The first of these was a rally of 500 men, the
:43:27. > :43:32.so-called Paisley's Army, at night on a county Antrim hillside. They
:43:33. > :43:42.didn't carry guns but waved firearm certificates to demonstrate their
:43:43. > :43:47.access to weapons. This is only a small token of many
:43:48. > :43:54.thousands of men who have pledged to me and I am pledged to them to stand
:43:55. > :44:01.together at this time of grave trouble in Northern Ireland.
:44:02. > :44:05.What message were you hoping to send out to the outer world given the
:44:06. > :44:10.presence of those men brandishing those gun licences?
:44:11. > :44:19.In that Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right and there will be no
:44:20. > :44:23.surrender. Who came up with that idea to form
:44:24. > :44:29.'Paisley's Army' on the side of that mountain? Whose idea was that?
:44:30. > :44:32.It was my idea. It was a warning to Mrs Thatcher and to the powers that
:44:33. > :44:35.be in Westminster and it was a warning also to the Nationalist
:44:36. > :44:39.people of Northern Ireland and the whole of Ireland that there were
:44:40. > :44:42.people who would not be run and bargained over and their future
:44:43. > :44:56.bargained over by Mrs Thatcher or anyone else.
:44:57. > :45:00.Throughout 1981 Northern Ireland woke up to reports of huge Carson
:45:01. > :45:09.Trail Rallies and quasi-paramilitary gatherings of the self-styled Third
:45:10. > :45:16.Force. Ian Paisley was mobilising to thwart the IRA.
:45:17. > :45:21.As this was happening Republicans in the Maze jail embarked on a series
:45:22. > :45:29.of hunger strikes, demanding to be treated as political prisoners. The
:45:30. > :45:31.death of Bobby Sands, followed by nine others, led to an upsurge in
:45:32. > :45:49.electoral support for Sinn Fein. If an IRA man comes to a Protestant
:45:50. > :45:56.home and my men are there, they will kill that IRA man.
:45:57. > :46:02.What if they are in conflict with the British security forces? If they
:46:03. > :46:05.are coming to join up with the IRA to kill Protestants, we will be in
:46:06. > :46:07.conflict with them. How dangerous a statement was that
:46:08. > :46:10.coming from you? It wasn't dangerous.
:46:11. > :46:15.As a political leader? It was a statement that needed to be
:46:16. > :46:19.made. I mean, this was a matter of life or death.
:46:20. > :46:21.Despite Ian Paisley's protests, Dublin's growing involvement in the
:46:22. > :46:29.affairs of Northern Ireland continued. It culminated in the then
:46:30. > :46:32.Taoiseach Dr Garret FitzGerald and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
:46:33. > :46:38.signing the Anglo Irish Agreement at Hillsborough Castle in 1985. This
:46:39. > :46:45.gave Dublin a consultative role in political and security matters in
:46:46. > :46:48.Northern Ireland. But did Mrs Thatcher betray you,
:46:49. > :46:51.though, when she afforded Dublin a foothold in the affairs of Northern
:46:52. > :46:58.Ireland through the Anglo Irish Agreement signed in November 1985?
:46:59. > :47:01.Do you think she betrayed you? Yes, oh, it was a surrender
:47:02. > :47:14.document. And even very mild Unionists would admit that. I mean,
:47:15. > :47:18.it did unite the Unionist people. I mean, for the first time I could sit
:47:19. > :47:26.in company with Ulster Unionists who saw the same way as I was seeing.
:47:27. > :47:29.In the aftermath of the signing of the Anglo Irish Agreement, the DUP
:47:30. > :47:37.leader raged against the Thatcher Government. The Iron Lady was now
:47:38. > :47:39.public enemy number one. Ian Paisley and a broad section of Unionism held
:47:40. > :48:00.a mass rally at Belfast City Hall. Write to the terrorist 's return to
:48:01. > :48:08.full century? To the Irish Republic. And then Mrs Thatcher
:48:09. > :48:19.tells us that that Republic must have say in our province. We say
:48:20. > :48:22.never! Never! Never! Was that a spur of the moment
:48:23. > :48:28.remark, that, "Never, never, never" remark you made?
:48:29. > :48:32.It was a spur of the moment because in situations like that I allow my
:48:33. > :48:37.heart to guide me and the fact that you are bringing this today shows it
:48:38. > :48:41.rung a bell. You further added, "This is a war
:48:42. > :48:45.and that no one mince words about it. People have already been hurt,
:48:46. > :48:48.people will be hurt and sacrifices will have to be made. We're going to
:48:49. > :48:52.marshal and organise and mobilize the forces of those who are opposed
:48:53. > :48:55.to this Anglo Irish Agreement, the Government will have to learn that
:48:56. > :48:59.they cannot force down the throats of the Protestant people this
:49:00. > :49:03.abominable Agreement." Wasn't that a challenge to the State?
:49:04. > :49:06.Yes, it was a challenge and we won - we have won.
:49:07. > :49:10.But wasn't that very incendiary language to be using, sir?
:49:11. > :49:13.Oh, but it needed to be, this was no joke.
:49:14. > :49:21.This wasn't a display of men who just wanted to clear their throats.
:49:22. > :49:28.Every man that went out was prepared to give their life.
:49:29. > :49:31.While Ian Paisley was in America in August the following year - he
:49:32. > :49:40.learned that his Democratic Unionist Party deputy Peter Robinson was
:49:41. > :49:42.grabbing the headlines. He had marched with several hundred
:49:43. > :49:45.supporters across the border into the village of Clontibret in County
:49:46. > :49:50.Monaghan in the early hours of the morning. Peter Robinson wanted to
:49:51. > :49:55.demonstrate the alleged absence of border security. The episode was to
:49:56. > :50:05.create tensions between the DUP leader and his deputy.
:50:06. > :50:10.Will continue to protest against the lack of security...
:50:11. > :50:14.A member of your family said to me that you considered Peter Robinson a
:50:15. > :50:17.silly ass for doing what he did. Did you think he was a silly ass to do
:50:18. > :50:21.what he did? Well, I don't think that I used that
:50:22. > :50:25.expression, but it should not have been done.
:50:26. > :50:29.There was a feeling within your family, some members of your family,
:50:30. > :50:32.that he might have been making a bid for the leadership at that point in
:50:33. > :50:36.time? Everybody has a right to decide for
:50:37. > :50:42.themselves what their answer to that is. I think he thought that was
:50:43. > :50:46.going to be a tremendous uprising as a result of all that and that didn't
:50:47. > :50:50.happen. Did you suspect that Peter Robinson
:50:51. > :50:54.might shift or move to the Ulster Unionist Party at that point in time
:50:55. > :50:55.when he stepped down as your deputy leader?
:50:56. > :51:07.No, because the Ulster Unionists didn't like him, so they didn't.
:51:08. > :51:12.Peter Robinson disputes that account of the origins of the protest,
:51:13. > :51:19.saying that Ian Paisley had agreed to go. He ended up paying a fine of
:51:20. > :51:23.17,500 Punt. How damaging was that to your party at that point in time,
:51:24. > :51:26.the fact that people in the street in his own community referred to him
:51:27. > :51:35.as Peter the Punt? Well, I mean that's... That's the
:51:36. > :51:39.thing that he has to bear. I mean, he did it and he must take account
:51:40. > :51:43.for it and it's so unimportant, you know, in the light of what was
:51:44. > :51:47.happening, it was only like a fella scratching a match and the match
:51:48. > :52:01.burns out and that's when he throws it away.
:52:02. > :52:05.Neither the Anglo Irish Agreement nor the loyalist protests succeeded
:52:06. > :52:12.in curbing IRA violence in Northern Ireland or Britain. The bombing of a
:52:13. > :52:19.Remembrance Day Service in Enniskillen was the most notorious
:52:20. > :52:22.of many atrocities in this period. Nevertheless, the Government was
:52:23. > :52:29.prepared to embark on secret talks with the IRA. But this did not stop
:52:30. > :52:34.the IRA taking its campaign to the heart of Government. The Cabinet
:52:35. > :52:40.itself had a narrow escape when Downing Street was attacked with
:52:41. > :52:45.mortar bombs. I think it was a cracker for the IRA
:52:46. > :52:53.they were, they did well out of it, so they did, that they could go
:52:54. > :52:57.right in and do that. I thought it should have put more of a strength
:52:58. > :53:02.into the muscle of the Cabinet to go out and deal with IRA the way they
:53:03. > :53:05.should have been dealt with. But the British Government
:53:06. > :53:09.steadfastly kept the lines of communication open to the Republican
:53:10. > :53:17.leadership. Eventually this led to the IRA cease-fire in the summer of
:53:18. > :53:20.1994. Jim Molyneaux, the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party at that
:53:21. > :53:24.point in time, said of the IRA cease-fire, "It was the worst thing
:53:25. > :53:28.that ever happened to us." Did you share that view at that time?
:53:29. > :53:31.Yes, certainly. Why did no Unionists see any merit
:53:32. > :53:40.in that IRA cease-fire announcement at that time?
:53:41. > :53:43.Well, I think that the people had been so let down that they had no
:53:44. > :53:47.trust in the British Government getting us a proper road to getting
:53:48. > :53:50.out of the killings and getting out of the agitations made to try and
:53:51. > :54:04.destroy what our forefathers had fought for and died for.
:54:05. > :54:09.Meanwhile a road map to peace had been identified and Ian Paisley
:54:10. > :54:17.would be asked to swallow even tougher medicine. With the
:54:18. > :54:20.full-blown intervention of London, Dublin and Washington in the affairs
:54:21. > :54:23.of Northern Ireland, protracted talks chaired by US Senator George
:54:24. > :54:36.Mitchell resulted in the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.
:54:37. > :54:42.I am pleased to announce that the two governments in the political
:54:43. > :54:47.parties in Northern Ireland have reached agreement.
:54:48. > :54:51.Ian Paisley's great political rival, David Trimble the leader of the
:54:52. > :54:53.Ulster Unionist Party - agreed a deal giving Republicans seats in
:54:54. > :54:55.Government and guaranteeing that all Paramilitary prisoners would be set
:54:56. > :55:04.free within two years. As the final touches were being put
:55:05. > :55:08.to the Agreement, Ian Paisley and members of his Party brought their
:55:09. > :55:18.opposition to the heart of the talks at Stormont.
:55:19. > :55:34.Let me say to you tonight... Let me say... Let me... I wish you would
:55:35. > :55:40.walk out. Yes, 71.12%.
:55:41. > :55:43.The people of Ireland, north and south ratified the outcome of the
:55:44. > :55:48.Good Friday Agreement in a referendum just over a month later.
:55:49. > :56:05.Ian Paisley was once more on the outside.
:56:06. > :56:14.# Cheerio, cheerio, cheerio.# At that moment in time, sir, how did
:56:15. > :56:17.you feel as an outsider? Did you feel?
:56:18. > :56:19.No. Disturbed?
:56:20. > :56:22.No. Isolated, alone?
:56:23. > :56:24.No, because the Official Unionists were divided on the issue, very much
:56:25. > :56:28.divided. What was wrong with that deal, why
:56:29. > :56:30.did you not accept such a deal? Because you don't sign a deal that's
:56:31. > :56:42.going to, in the end, destroy you. Of the Good Friday Agreement you
:56:43. > :56:45.said, "It was the greatest betrayal ever foisted by a Unionist leader on
:56:46. > :56:51.the Unionist people." That's right, so it was. Is that how you saw it?
:56:52. > :56:55.So it was, it was a selling-out of all that we stood for and all that
:56:56. > :56:59.our fathers died for and the people I was speaking for were the people
:57:00. > :57:09.who gave their lives in two World Wars to keep us in a place of
:57:10. > :57:13.freedom. And this thing goes into the very
:57:14. > :57:22.core of the Ulsterman and the Ulster Unionist and I don't think it's
:57:23. > :57:25.understood. Ulster Unionists can fight things among themselves and be
:57:26. > :57:29.very cruel in themselves, but there is a place where we all join
:57:30. > :57:33.together and where blood is mixed with blood and bones are mixed with
:57:34. > :57:54.bones; we say, "So far, but no farther".
:57:55. > :58:01.What was it all about? Getting rid of Ian Paisley. In whose
:58:02. > :58:09.interest is? The people who got... Took over.
:58:10. > :58:14.They did a dirty tricks on him, dirty deeds on him. In the end, he
:58:15. > :58:18.was left with no option but to stand down.
:58:19. > :58:24.We are talking about road on road. How hurtful were those rocks?
:58:25. > :58:31.They were absolutely disgraceful and they were disgraceful because the
:58:32. > :58:37.man that they put in my position could keep his own seat.
:58:38. > :58:43.They assassinated him by their words and deeds. I think they heeded him
:58:44. > :58:46.shamefully. These people had only one thing to
:58:47. > :58:50.serve and that was their own ego.