0:00:02 > 0:00:06Ian Paisley's been a public figure for over 60 years.
0:00:06 > 0:00:09For most of that time, he was an outsider,
0:00:09 > 0:00:11denouncing his many opponents.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18But all that changed in 2007,
0:00:18 > 0:00:21when he became First Minister of Northern Ireland.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Why did the man who promised to smash Sinn Fein
0:00:24 > 0:00:27go into government with his former enemies?
0:00:27 > 0:00:29And what price did he ultimately pay?
0:00:31 > 0:00:33For the first time,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Ian Paisley reveals the dramatic circumstances
0:00:36 > 0:00:38in which he ceased to be First Minister,
0:00:38 > 0:00:40leader of the Democratic Unionist Party,
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church,
0:00:43 > 0:00:45and minister of Martyrs Memorial Church.
0:00:47 > 0:00:51There was a beast here who was prepared to go forward
0:00:51 > 0:00:55in...to the destruction of the party.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57Did they want Martin McGuinness and him
0:00:57 > 0:01:00to come on fighting one another and shouting at one another?
0:01:00 > 0:01:05And I think instead of castigating them, they should've been commended.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09If they wanted to put me on trial, why did they not put me on trial?
0:01:09 > 0:01:12Why did they not bring charges?
0:01:12 > 0:01:16They assassinated him by their words and by their deeds.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18I think they treated him shamefully.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21If I had have said I would resign immediately,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23they would've broken up the Church that night,
0:01:23 > 0:01:26and they would've announced to the world
0:01:26 > 0:01:30that the Paisley leadership was finished
0:01:30 > 0:01:35and the Free Presbyterian Church was under new management.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52Ian Paisley's wife Eileen has been a major influence
0:01:52 > 0:01:54throughout his turbulent career.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00- In 1950, you meet Eileen Cassells. - Yes.
0:02:00 > 0:02:01Tell me about this lady,
0:02:01 > 0:02:03what was so special about Eileen Cassells,
0:02:03 > 0:02:07- who became your wife? - She was a bully!
0:02:07 > 0:02:08HE LAUGHS
0:02:08 > 0:02:11She just bullied me,
0:02:11 > 0:02:15and I just had to collapse, and I...
0:02:15 > 0:02:18had to pull down any opposition and say, "yes".
0:02:21 > 0:02:25Give me your earliest recollection, the very first time
0:02:25 > 0:02:29you clapped your eye on the young Paisley, how did he strike you?
0:02:29 > 0:02:31He had always a twinkle
0:02:31 > 0:02:34and a brightness about him. And...
0:02:34 > 0:02:37- Was he a bit of a flirt? - No, no, no, he wasn't a flirt.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42Oh, no, but he was just a bright...
0:02:42 > 0:02:45He had a bright personality and he was very personable.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47What about his preaching, was that
0:02:47 > 0:02:49important to you as a young woman?
0:02:49 > 0:02:52Yes, yes, my parents were on holidays and my brother said to me,
0:02:52 > 0:02:54"What about going down to hear Ian Paisley?"
0:02:54 > 0:02:57And I said, "Well, OK, I'll come with you."
0:02:57 > 0:03:03So that was the first time I heard Ian preach, and it was amazing.
0:03:03 > 0:03:08I fell for her immediately and scraped my knees.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10I went down with a plump!
0:03:11 > 0:03:17Of course, she has been my right-hand person all the days of my life.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31- NEWS REPORTER:- Three o'clock this afternoon in Room 21
0:03:31 > 0:03:34at Parliament Buildings, Stormont...
0:03:34 > 0:03:37Ian Paisley aggressively resisted the David Trimble-led
0:03:37 > 0:03:40power-sharing administration established in 1999.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46However, the DUP leader kept the door open to power
0:03:46 > 0:03:51by nominating Nigel Dodds and Peter Robinson as ministers.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54But the party chose to boycott all meetings of the Executive,
0:03:54 > 0:03:57refusing to cooperate with Sinn Fein.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02The fledgling administration staggered from crisis to crisis,
0:04:02 > 0:04:04with the question of IRA guns
0:04:04 > 0:04:07hobbling the Ulster Unionist First Minister at every turn.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13The IRA's delay in decommissioning
0:04:13 > 0:04:14its weapons not only eroded
0:04:14 > 0:04:18David Trimble's authority in his own party, but rendered him
0:04:18 > 0:04:23an easy target for Ian Paisley, who repeatedly held them up to ridicule.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25- TRIMBLE: Stop running! - You're yesterday's man, David.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29- Stop running.- You're finished. - Stop running.- You're a failure.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31DAVID TRIMBLE LAUGHS
0:04:31 > 0:04:34SEVERAL VOICES: # Cheerio, cheerio, cheerio!
0:04:34 > 0:04:39# Cheerio, cheerio, cheerio-oh! #
0:04:39 > 0:04:43Why were you so against David Trimble as First Minister now
0:04:43 > 0:04:45and his administration at Parliament Buildings,
0:04:45 > 0:04:50an administration which involved members of the Republican movement?
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Well, I think you should ask the members of his own party
0:04:53 > 0:04:56- why they were against him. - But what was troubling you?
0:04:56 > 0:05:02Yes, what was troubling me was that his slate was not clean.
0:05:02 > 0:05:04- On what issue?- On all the issues.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06- What were the issues concerning you?- He was a weakling.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10- What were the issues? - Well, the issues were the fact that
0:05:10 > 0:05:15known members of the IRA,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18who were also sitting in the House,
0:05:18 > 0:05:23could take part and could be even appointed to office.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25But what was wrong with that? They were elected.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27You were a democrat, what was wrong with that?
0:05:27 > 0:05:33Well, I am totally opposed to gunmen, who had not given up their weaponry,
0:05:33 > 0:05:39to be able to sit in the Cabinet and to rule the country.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41It's... It's madness.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Soon, David Trimble's Ulster Unionist Party
0:05:47 > 0:05:49was losing ground to the DUP.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51Firstly in Westminster elections, then, more importantly,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54in Northern Ireland Assembly elections.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59In 2003, the DUP emerged as the biggest party.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07Support for Sinn Fein also increased at the expense of the SDLP,
0:06:07 > 0:06:10with Gerry Adams and his colleagues
0:06:10 > 0:06:12becoming the leading nationalist party.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16Sinn Fein concluded David Trimble was now a lame-duck leader,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19and was entertaining the previously unthinkable -
0:06:19 > 0:06:21a deal with Ian Paisley.
0:06:22 > 0:06:30# His truth at all times firmly stood... #
0:06:30 > 0:06:34The penny was beginning to drop in London and Dublin.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36Ian Paisley could no longer be ignored.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40'The result of those elections'
0:06:40 > 0:06:45put us into a place where both Sinn Fein and the unions
0:06:45 > 0:06:47had to face up to it.
0:06:47 > 0:06:54I mean, there was no turning back. And if we had turned back...
0:06:56 > 0:06:59..God help this country and what it would have come to.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04Unknown to the outside world,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07a new reality was dawning in the Paisley household.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10Sinn Fein, electorally, was not going away.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17Eileen Paisley's views would heavily influence her husband
0:07:17 > 0:07:19over the coming years.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24Were you in any sense trying to persuade your husband
0:07:24 > 0:07:29to try and find a reach and accommodation with Republicans
0:07:29 > 0:07:32to make sure that we didn't have the ongoing 30 years,
0:07:32 > 0:07:34another 30 years of violence?
0:07:34 > 0:07:36Yes, we discussed it.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39We discussed it, we prayed about it, we talked round it and through it
0:07:39 > 0:07:44and in and out about how we could lose friends, and probably would.
0:07:44 > 0:07:50But we thought that the country has come through such a terrible time
0:07:50 > 0:07:54and people from right across the board have been hurt
0:07:54 > 0:08:00and damaged beyond all description and we can't continue that,
0:08:00 > 0:08:03and unless an accommodation had been reached,
0:08:03 > 0:08:05it would have been another 30 or 40 years,
0:08:05 > 0:08:07and maybe it would've been worse.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09The whole country would've been on fire.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13London and Dublin stepped up their courtship
0:08:13 > 0:08:16of the Democratic Unionist Party.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19This ultimately led to all-party intergovernmental talks
0:08:19 > 0:08:22at Leeds Castle in the autumn of 2004.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26This was an attempt to stabilise the ongoing pattern
0:08:26 > 0:08:31of stop-start devolution, with IRA guns topping the agenda.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37It was Tony Blair's first real opportunity
0:08:37 > 0:08:39to gauge Ian Paisley's willingness
0:08:39 > 0:08:42to contemplate government with the Republicans.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46The Prime Minister's Protestant roots in Donegal
0:08:46 > 0:08:49helped cement a friendship.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52Their interest in religion was a common bond.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56We CAN resolve the issue of paramilitary activity
0:08:56 > 0:08:58and an end to all violence...
0:08:58 > 0:09:01How much time did you devote to talking religion with
0:09:01 > 0:09:07- Tony Blair at Leeds Castle?- Oh, a good deal of time.- Why was that?
0:09:07 > 0:09:13Well, it was matters that were brought up and matters about his...
0:09:13 > 0:09:17his grandfather being an Orangeman
0:09:17 > 0:09:22and his grandmother
0:09:22 > 0:09:28was a very, very, strong supporter of mine.
0:09:28 > 0:09:29Was she a Paisleyite?
0:09:29 > 0:09:35She was, she said to him, "You don't do anything on Ian Paisley
0:09:35 > 0:09:39"because it'll be very unlucky for you if you do."
0:09:39 > 0:09:47Now, did Mr Blair tell you a story about his granny's comments to him
0:09:47 > 0:09:50- as she was ailing and advancing in years...- Yes.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52..about getting married to a Catholic,
0:09:52 > 0:09:55- and the danger of getting married to a Catholic?- Yes.- What did he say?
0:09:55 > 0:10:02He said that she said, "Son, you must never marry a Roman Catholic.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06"And you must never join the Roman Catholic Church."
0:10:06 > 0:10:08And, of course, he dutifully disobeyed her
0:10:08 > 0:10:12- and married Cherie, a Catholic. - That's right, yes.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14Can you just tell me about the day that he told you
0:10:14 > 0:10:17he was going to become a Catholic?
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Well, I used to meet him in this private room,
0:10:21 > 0:10:24not so much in his office, and, er, he says,
0:10:24 > 0:10:29"Look, I'm going downstairs now." And he says,
0:10:29 > 0:10:33"I'll let you out the back door and you can get away quick."
0:10:33 > 0:10:35And I said, "That's all right."
0:10:35 > 0:10:37And as we were walking down the stairs,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40he stopped, and he looked back at me.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46And he says, "Ian, there's something I need to tell you.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48"When the hands of that clock..." -
0:10:48 > 0:10:51and he pointed to a big clock that was on the wall -
0:10:51 > 0:10:55"..when they come to eight o'clock,
0:10:55 > 0:10:58"I will be a Roman Catholic."
0:10:59 > 0:11:04And he said, "I didn't want you to leave without telling you,
0:11:04 > 0:11:06"I'd rather tell you myself."
0:11:07 > 0:11:10And I said, "You're a fool."
0:11:12 > 0:11:14And I walked home.
0:11:14 > 0:11:19If one of your family members had come home one day with a Catholic,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22- how would you have felt? - I'd have bought...
0:11:22 > 0:11:25I would have bought a long cane
0:11:25 > 0:11:29and given him a few strokes with it! HE LAUGHS
0:11:29 > 0:11:31No, I would have said,
0:11:31 > 0:11:37"Let us sit down and let us ask God his opinion on this."
0:11:37 > 0:11:40And I would have said...
0:11:40 > 0:11:46"Although you'll hurt me doing what you're doing, you're my child,
0:11:46 > 0:11:49"and my love is greater than my hurt."
0:11:49 > 0:11:53And they could come in and out of this house as they would.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57They would not have been put out by me or my wife either.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02We wouldn't have liked it, but we'd have lumped it, we would lump it.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10Ian Paisley struck an optimistic note
0:12:10 > 0:12:12at the end of the Leeds Castle talks.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16Decommissioning of all IRA weapons
0:12:16 > 0:12:20and dismantling of the structures of terrorism
0:12:20 > 0:12:25is the ultimate outcome of this process.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28But this optimism was short-lived.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30During the all-party talks,
0:12:30 > 0:12:33he demanded to have his own witness present
0:12:33 > 0:12:35to oversee IRA decommissioning.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39He also insisted on photographic evidence
0:12:39 > 0:12:41to prove that the guns had been destroyed.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48But a speech delivered by the DUP leader
0:12:48 > 0:12:50in his home town of Ballymena that autumn
0:12:50 > 0:12:52rang alarm bells in Dublin and London,
0:12:52 > 0:12:54when he spelled out that the IRA
0:12:54 > 0:12:57would have to wear sackcloth and ashes.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00In other words, publicly repent.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03The IRA needs to be humiliated.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07And they need to wear their sackcloth and ashes
0:13:07 > 0:13:09not in a back room, but openly.
0:13:11 > 0:13:16If you were so optimistic leaving Leeds Castle that potentially,
0:13:16 > 0:13:21there could be peace, why then, come September-November,
0:13:21 > 0:13:25did you introduce this whole idea of the IRA
0:13:25 > 0:13:28having to wear sackcloth and ashes?
0:13:28 > 0:13:33They had to repent and they had to ask forgiveness of the people
0:13:33 > 0:13:38for the awful state that they had brought Northern Ireland into.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43It is quite in keeping with what a gospel preacher would say,
0:13:43 > 0:13:45that if you're going to repent,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48you need to do it in sackcloth and ashes.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50It's a scriptural statement.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55Two events threatened to derail the peace process.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00In December 2004, the IRA robbed the Northern Bank of £26 million.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04Then less than a month later, Republicans murdered
0:14:04 > 0:14:08Robert McCartney, a Catholic, outside a Belfast pub.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10But Ian Paisley was not deterred.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16The IRA finally addressed the guns issue in September of that year.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20This was confirmed by General John de Chastelain,
0:14:20 > 0:14:23of the International Decommissioning Body.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26We are satisfied that the arms decommission
0:14:26 > 0:14:30represent the totality of the IRA's arsenal.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34Inexplicably, Ian Paisley ceased demanding photographic evidence
0:14:34 > 0:14:36that the weapons had been destroyed.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40The two churchmen who had witnessed the process -
0:14:40 > 0:14:42a Methodist minister, Harold Good,
0:14:42 > 0:14:43and a Catholic priest,
0:14:43 > 0:14:46Father Alec Reid of Clonard monastery -
0:14:46 > 0:14:50went to see the DUP leader at his office at Parliament Buildings.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55Father Reid gave Ian Paisley the comfort he sought.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00He was very, very open with me
0:15:00 > 0:15:05and, of course, I had known of him as, er,
0:15:05 > 0:15:09I went up to the Roman Catholic church
0:15:09 > 0:15:14that he belonged to and had debates, you know, there,
0:15:14 > 0:15:19when they had their special times to meet Protestants.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22He was very open, very open,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25and he, er...
0:15:25 > 0:15:28I said, "Well, if you are saying to me
0:15:28 > 0:15:34"that you're guaranteeing this, then I can at least say I accept that
0:15:34 > 0:15:37"and I will take it as you have said to me.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40"And, of course, that helps the situation."
0:15:40 > 0:15:43Washington's interest in Northern Ireland was now being stepped up,
0:15:43 > 0:15:47with President George Bush regularly in touch with
0:15:47 > 0:15:49Ian Paisley and other party leaders.
0:15:49 > 0:15:50You get a deal done, in other words,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53you close the agreement that they've been working on for quite a while.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58Even with the IRA's guns off the table,
0:15:58 > 0:16:00Ian Paisley was still adamant that
0:16:00 > 0:16:03he could not go into government with Sinn Fein
0:16:03 > 0:16:04unless Republicans backed the rule of law
0:16:04 > 0:16:07and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13All roads were now leading to St Andrews in Scotland
0:16:13 > 0:16:16for hothouse talks involving the British and Irish governments
0:16:16 > 0:16:20and the political parties, to resolve the outstanding issues.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26As these talks ended, the DUP leader said,
0:16:26 > 0:16:28"I trust that we will see in the coming days
0:16:28 > 0:16:32"the vast majority of people taking the road of democracy."
0:16:36 > 0:16:39As Sinn Fein had promised Ian Paisley,
0:16:39 > 0:16:41they held a special conference in the New Year
0:16:41 > 0:16:45to vote on support for the police.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48He was now preparing himself to go into government
0:16:48 > 0:16:51with his arch enemies of more than 30 years.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54There was no more talk of smashing Sinn Fein.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00You went into administration power sharing with Sinn Fein,
0:17:00 > 0:17:04former arch enemies, deemed by your party to be murderers.
0:17:04 > 0:17:09Well, this was what we had to look at and accept
0:17:09 > 0:17:15if we were going to have any say at all in the rule of our country,
0:17:15 > 0:17:19and, er, if you can't get everything, you can get something.
0:17:19 > 0:17:24And the something that we got was at least a step in the right direction.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29'It was at this point in our conversation that Ian Paisley
0:17:29 > 0:17:31'declared that he wanted to read a statement.'
0:17:32 > 0:17:34PAISLEY CLEARS THROAT
0:17:34 > 0:17:35"Over and over again...
0:17:36 > 0:17:39"..coming up in this interview and other interviews,
0:17:39 > 0:17:43"we have the words, "the deal".
0:17:43 > 0:17:46"And I think that...
0:17:46 > 0:17:50"having listened to the various definitions
0:17:50 > 0:17:53"made of the deal by others, it's time that
0:17:53 > 0:18:01"I had the opportunity just to say exactly what this deal was about.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04"They did deal with their weapons,
0:18:04 > 0:18:10"and they did accept the principle of consent.
0:18:11 > 0:18:17"I needed Republicans to accept the PSNI
0:18:17 > 0:18:21"and the rule of law in Northern Ireland.
0:18:21 > 0:18:25"I was told this never could happen.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30"And my response was, unless it did,
0:18:30 > 0:18:34"we would never be able to move forward.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38"It did happen.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41"I had to put my best foot forward.
0:18:41 > 0:18:48"I had to put a smile on my face and do what I was elected to do.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51"Give leadership."
0:18:53 > 0:18:56Many people out there say that you were looking after your legacy,
0:18:56 > 0:18:59that your legacy was a big issue, and that, ultimately,
0:18:59 > 0:19:02decided for you that you wanted to be First Minister
0:19:02 > 0:19:05and to become First Minister, you had to bite the bullet
0:19:05 > 0:19:07and go into government with Sinn Fein. True or false?
0:19:07 > 0:19:10- Was it your legacy? - Oh, no, not at all.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12I'd, erm...
0:19:12 > 0:19:18My work was as a Christian minister and that has always come first.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23'I had to take a step,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26'a step that I had'
0:19:26 > 0:19:28a lot of heart searching on,
0:19:28 > 0:19:33a step that brought me a lot of pain,
0:19:33 > 0:19:35a step that had to put me
0:19:35 > 0:19:38out of the class of a coward,
0:19:38 > 0:19:40into the class of a man
0:19:40 > 0:19:42that was prepared to sell
0:19:42 > 0:19:44himself and his reputation
0:19:44 > 0:19:46for the sake of his country.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51What did you actually mean when you said you had to sell yourself,
0:19:51 > 0:19:53you had to do that deal?
0:19:53 > 0:19:57Well, I had to sell myself to a lot of criticism of people
0:19:57 > 0:20:00who didn't know what was really happening,
0:20:00 > 0:20:06and it meant I was blamed for being a Lundy and all sorts of things.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09But, er, when I look back, you know,
0:20:09 > 0:20:14he that laughs last laughs the longest.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18It was a very, very big step to take,
0:20:18 > 0:20:22and it seemed to some people who couldn't understand,
0:20:22 > 0:20:25it just seemed to them
0:20:25 > 0:20:28that he was going back on everything that he had said.
0:20:28 > 0:20:33But the situation was different, the situation had changed.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37Sinn Fein had given up their arms and their Semtex,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39and they, erm...
0:20:39 > 0:20:42whenever Ian asked them,
0:20:42 > 0:20:45after some difficulties, of course,
0:20:45 > 0:20:49they did sign up to the three principles that he asked of them
0:20:49 > 0:20:53and demanded of them. Otherwise, it wouldn't have happened.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59The Paisley family privately acknowledge
0:20:59 > 0:21:02that they always expected they would pay a price
0:21:02 > 0:21:04for doing a deal with Sinn Fein.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08The first casualty was Ian Paisley's lifelong friendship
0:21:08 > 0:21:11with the eminent QC Desmond Boal.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15A founding member of the Democratic Unionist Party
0:21:15 > 0:21:17and close confidante of the leader,
0:21:17 > 0:21:22he had been part of the lives of the Paisley family for over 40 years.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27The bell went and I answered...
0:21:27 > 0:21:29The bell at the gate went and I answered it,
0:21:29 > 0:21:33and I went and waited at the door for him coming,
0:21:33 > 0:21:36and he came up with books that Ian had given him
0:21:36 > 0:21:39and he said to me, "This isn't a friendly visit."
0:21:40 > 0:21:43He said, "I just can't believe he has done what he has done,"
0:21:43 > 0:21:46and he says, "I don't want anything more to do with you."
0:21:46 > 0:21:49So I says, "Well...
0:21:49 > 0:21:52"Desmond," I said, "I'm very sorry it has to come to that."
0:21:52 > 0:21:55But I says, "Ian had to do...
0:21:55 > 0:21:57"He was... What could he do?
0:21:57 > 0:22:01"Would you have him be responsible for another 30 or 40 years
0:22:01 > 0:22:05"of warfare and devastation and killing and murdering,
0:22:05 > 0:22:07"or do what he did?"
0:22:07 > 0:22:11And he didn't... I don't think he answered me, he just walked away.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13How big a blow was that to Mr Paisley?
0:22:13 > 0:22:14His lifelong friend, his confidante,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17his legal advisor in so many circumstances.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20It was a very big blow to him. A very big blow.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22And we do miss him and we miss his...
0:22:22 > 0:22:24He was a great character and it was great fun,
0:22:24 > 0:22:27a lovely person to come in and have as a friend,
0:22:27 > 0:22:30and we had a very close friendship.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37Storm clouds were gathering
0:22:37 > 0:22:40inside Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45The idea of its moderator,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48a post held by Ian Paisley for more than half a century,
0:22:48 > 0:22:51going into a power-sharing executive with Sinn Fein,
0:22:51 > 0:22:53was repugnant to some.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57Well, I wonder why people hate me, cos I'm such a nice man...
0:22:57 > 0:23:00His intention to continue as the leader of the church
0:23:00 > 0:23:03while serving as First Minister, alongside Martin McGuinness,
0:23:03 > 0:23:08a former IRA commander, was now the subject of heated debate
0:23:08 > 0:23:11at presbytery meetings in the spring of 2007.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18Were you aware that storms might be about to break
0:23:18 > 0:23:20in your church at that point in time?
0:23:20 > 0:23:22There's nothing easy in politics,
0:23:22 > 0:23:26and there's nothing easy in the politics of Northern Ireland.
0:23:26 > 0:23:31I mean, you've got to take it. And I believe, here and there,
0:23:31 > 0:23:33we have good fruit coming from that.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36What do you say to the people who accused you,
0:23:36 > 0:23:38by going into an administration,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41a power-sharing administration with Republicans,
0:23:41 > 0:23:47that at the end of the day, you chose politics and power over God?
0:23:47 > 0:23:51I, er, don't accept that at all.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54And, er...
0:23:54 > 0:24:00I regret that they have not the ear of God on this matter.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03I don't see them crowding into their prayer meetings,
0:24:03 > 0:24:08I don't see them taking the matter in prayer,
0:24:08 > 0:24:14but they can pour all their fury on me.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17And I am broad enough in the shoulders,
0:24:17 > 0:24:20and my stomach is strong enough,
0:24:20 > 0:24:23to take all of the condemnations they want.
0:24:23 > 0:24:30And part of it, of course, is sour, sour grapes.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34Leading the charge at Free Presbyterian meetings
0:24:34 > 0:24:37against its moderator's move into government with Sinn Fein
0:24:37 > 0:24:39was the Reverend Ivan Foster.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43He had been at Ian Paisley's side
0:24:43 > 0:24:47throughout the years of religious and political protest.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50Within weeks of St Andrews,
0:24:50 > 0:24:53Mr Foster led a church delegation to Stormont
0:24:53 > 0:24:56to confront Ian Paisley about his twin roles
0:24:56 > 0:24:58as First Minister and Moderator.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01He was now regularly challenging his leader,
0:25:01 > 0:25:05using his website to warn against any compromise.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08One so highly esteemed
0:25:08 > 0:25:11and loved as Ian Paisley
0:25:11 > 0:25:17in political coalition with Martin McGuinness...
0:25:17 > 0:25:22I would say is probably heartbreaking to most,
0:25:22 > 0:25:24if not every Free Presbyterian.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Mr Paisley, three weeks after St Andrews,
0:25:30 > 0:25:34an unofficial delegation from the Free Presbyterian Church
0:25:34 > 0:25:38- turned up on your doorstep at Parliament Buildings.- Yes.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40What did Ivan Foster and his colleagues
0:25:40 > 0:25:42actually say to you at that meeting?
0:25:42 > 0:25:49Well, they talked about the moderatorship of the church
0:25:49 > 0:25:53and, er, they wanted to say to me,
0:25:53 > 0:26:00"You can't be Moderator of the Church and be the leader in this movement."
0:26:00 > 0:26:05And, of course, they had no right to say that to anybody.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07This is a free country
0:26:07 > 0:26:12and people have a right to go the way they should go.
0:26:15 > 0:26:20The campaign of opposition to Ian Paisley's dual role came to a head
0:26:20 > 0:26:23in September 2007 at the annual general meeting
0:26:23 > 0:26:27of the church's presbytery in Martyr's Memorial.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34It was at that meeting each year that the moderator was elected.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40For 50 years, Ian Paisley's leadership had gone unchallenged.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Even though he'd met with some hostility
0:26:45 > 0:26:47at a number of presbytery meetings,
0:26:47 > 0:26:49his family did not believe that his moderatorship
0:26:49 > 0:26:51was under any serious threat.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58The conflict among Free Presbyterians
0:26:58 > 0:27:01would effectively split the Church that night.
0:27:09 > 0:27:11Were you encouraging him to stand his ground
0:27:11 > 0:27:15and to hold onto his position as Moderator?
0:27:15 > 0:27:16Yes, I did, of course,
0:27:16 > 0:27:19because there was no reason why he should stand down.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23He was doing a good job and had done all his life,
0:27:23 > 0:27:27and, er, there was nothing to stop him continuing with that
0:27:27 > 0:27:31and, er, continuing with his position as First Minister.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34But the poison had been led and spread,
0:27:34 > 0:27:38and I think that was the damage that had been done.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43Your son Kyle, who's a member of the presbytery
0:27:43 > 0:27:48and a Free Presbyterian Church minister, told me that you said
0:27:48 > 0:27:51that night before going to the presbytery meeting
0:27:51 > 0:27:56in the Martyr's Memorial, "I never thought in all my life
0:27:56 > 0:27:58"I would be attending a meeting of this kind."
0:27:58 > 0:28:01- Yes.- What did you mean by that?
0:28:01 > 0:28:05Well, I mean, it was completely out of order to discuss
0:28:05 > 0:28:11the moderatorship in the way it was discussed, and without giving
0:28:11 > 0:28:17every member of the presbytery an opportunity to be there.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19You offered to resign, Mr Paisley,
0:28:19 > 0:28:22as Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church
0:28:22 > 0:28:26during that meeting. Why did you offer to resign?
0:28:26 > 0:28:34Because I wasn't... I was not going to, er, in any way, er,
0:28:34 > 0:28:37destroy the testimony of the Church.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40I wasn't going to stand in the way of people,
0:28:40 > 0:28:43but if I hadn't a solid foundation,
0:28:43 > 0:28:48the work of the Lord was going to be hindered.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50And I was not a hinderer.
0:28:50 > 0:28:54And I wanted to show people...
0:28:54 > 0:28:59it's not the office that the man holds that's important,
0:28:59 > 0:29:03it is the spirit in which he holds it.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06Kyle also said of the whole church experience,
0:29:06 > 0:29:10as he watched and observed what had happened, he said,
0:29:10 > 0:29:13"It was like a knife going through you.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16"The family just felt as if we had all been stabbed.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20"They seemed to have done it with such consummate ease.
0:29:20 > 0:29:25"We were definitely let down and betrayed." The words of your son.
0:29:25 > 0:29:30- Yes.- Is that an accurate assessment? - Yes, it is an accurate assessment.
0:29:30 > 0:29:35Why should people that the Free Presbyterian Church took
0:29:35 > 0:29:38and trained and built churches for,
0:29:38 > 0:29:43why should they be turned on by those people? Because those people
0:29:43 > 0:29:49had only one thing to serve, and that was their own ego.
0:29:49 > 0:29:52Why did you not resign immediately, though?
0:29:52 > 0:29:54Why did you say that you would go in January?
0:29:54 > 0:29:58Because if I had said I would resign immediately,
0:29:58 > 0:30:01they would have broken up the Church that night.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05And they would have put in their own band of leaders
0:30:05 > 0:30:08and would have announced to the world
0:30:08 > 0:30:11that the Paisley leadership was finished
0:30:11 > 0:30:17and the Free Presbyterian Church was under new management.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21Was it a case, then, of your not wanting to be seen
0:30:21 > 0:30:23to have been drummed out as Moderator by the Church,
0:30:23 > 0:30:26that you wanted to pick your own time when you would go?
0:30:26 > 0:30:31But I wasn't drummed out. I won the vote.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36The vote, I won the vote. I could have...
0:30:36 > 0:30:40I could have stood up at that meeting and said, "Now you've got the vote,
0:30:40 > 0:30:44"you fellas will have to come into line or you'll have to go,"
0:30:44 > 0:30:48but I didn't do that because that's not the way you do the work of God.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52And if that means that I should be kicked in the gutter,
0:30:52 > 0:30:53then kick me in the gutter.
0:30:53 > 0:30:58If that means that I should be chased out of the Church,
0:30:58 > 0:31:03and that I should be rejected as a reject, well, I have to bear that.
0:31:03 > 0:31:05That's part of the cross.
0:31:05 > 0:31:10On that particular night in the Martyrs Memorial Church grounds,
0:31:10 > 0:31:14inside and outside, grown men ended up crying.
0:31:14 > 0:31:16Talk to me about the atmosphere
0:31:16 > 0:31:19in the aftermath of the Presbytery meeting that night.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22Well, people were very, very upset.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25The hardened ones, as I call them, among them,
0:31:25 > 0:31:27the ones who would have been anti-agreement
0:31:27 > 0:31:31and anti...coming to any peace...
0:31:31 > 0:31:33they just went out
0:31:33 > 0:31:37and some of them, most of them didn't stay for supper.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41And the other ones who did stay,
0:31:41 > 0:31:44I don't know how many of those men shook hands with me,
0:31:44 > 0:31:49and many of them hugged me. And the tears were running down their faces,
0:31:49 > 0:31:51and that touched me deeply
0:31:51 > 0:31:55that there were people who felt very strongly, you know,
0:31:55 > 0:31:57that it had been unjust,
0:31:57 > 0:32:03the judgements of Ivan and the people who supported him was unjust.
0:32:03 > 0:32:08Mr Paisley, your son Kyle, speaking of that night and what happened,
0:32:08 > 0:32:11spoke the following words.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14"Some of what was said was pure sectarianism,
0:32:14 > 0:32:19"and some Protestants only wanted a military defeat of Republicans."
0:32:19 > 0:32:21Do you accept that as to be accurate?
0:32:21 > 0:32:25Yes. I mean, there are people
0:32:25 > 0:32:29and all they wanted was the defeat of the IRA and that was it,
0:32:29 > 0:32:34and the Protestants who were killing and bombing as well,
0:32:34 > 0:32:36they are forgotten about.
0:32:36 > 0:32:40I mean, let's be absolutely honest,
0:32:40 > 0:32:47what should happen is law that every person is subjected to.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50Our hearts were all broken for Ian,
0:32:50 > 0:32:56the children and...myself as well.
0:32:56 > 0:33:01I felt he had been deeply wounded in the house of his friends,
0:33:01 > 0:33:06and I just felt that it was really iniquitous of them
0:33:06 > 0:33:09and a really dreadful, hurtful,
0:33:09 > 0:33:13nasty, ungodly, un-Christian thing to do.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17You did say, "We were not defeated by our enemies,
0:33:17 > 0:33:21"but betrayed by our friends."
0:33:21 > 0:33:24Is that how you felt against the backdrop of what happened
0:33:24 > 0:33:27- to your husband in the church? - Yes.- In his own church?
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Yes, that puts it into exact...
0:33:29 > 0:33:31In one sentence, that sums it up.
0:33:36 > 0:33:40With Ian Paisley and the DUP now in government with Sinn Fein,
0:33:40 > 0:33:42some party members were far from happy.
0:33:45 > 0:33:49The leadership in the spring of that year faced considerable opposition
0:33:49 > 0:33:51and heckling at party meetings.
0:33:51 > 0:33:57Significantly, no annual conference was held in 2007.
0:33:57 > 0:34:01Ian Paisley was now into his 80s and Peter Robinson,
0:34:01 > 0:34:05his right-hand man and heir apparent for over 30 years,
0:34:05 > 0:34:07was not getting any younger either.
0:34:07 > 0:34:13The Paisley family was aware of the prevailing winds within the DUP.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16By now, the so-called men in grey suits,
0:34:16 > 0:34:20senior figures in the upper echelons of the DUP,
0:34:20 > 0:34:24were huddling in corners inside and outside Parliament Buildings
0:34:24 > 0:34:29with a single goal - arranging Ian Paisley's departure.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33Did it occur to you as a family,
0:34:33 > 0:34:36now that the Church had more or less killed off your husband,
0:34:36 > 0:34:42that potentially, a political heave might be in the offing
0:34:42 > 0:34:43along the same lines?
0:34:43 > 0:34:49I detected a nasty spirit arising from some of the other MPs
0:34:49 > 0:34:53and in the way they spoke to Ian. I was very annoyed one day
0:34:53 > 0:34:56with the way some of them spoke to him and addressed him.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59Whenever they said something to him about what was going on
0:34:59 > 0:35:03and he said, "Well, that's what should be done,"
0:35:03 > 0:35:05and they said, "Ach, Doc!"
0:35:05 > 0:35:08You know, just sort of, "Don't be so stupid." You know?
0:35:08 > 0:35:13That sort of set the alarm bells ringing in my head
0:35:13 > 0:35:16that there was an undergoing current,
0:35:16 > 0:35:19that balls were being made and somebody,
0:35:19 > 0:35:21these men were doing the firing of them.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25Despite being forced to relinquish
0:35:25 > 0:35:28his moderatorship of the Free Presbyterian Church,
0:35:28 > 0:35:32Ian Paisley appeared to be relishing his role as First Minister
0:35:32 > 0:35:34at home and abroad.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38He was regularly seen in public and private
0:35:38 > 0:35:40laughing and enjoying the company
0:35:40 > 0:35:43of the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness.
0:35:44 > 0:35:48Nothing could have prepared him, however, for what was to come next.
0:35:49 > 0:35:53Ian Paisley told me his special adviser, Timothy Johnston,
0:35:53 > 0:35:57had handed him a document, which has remained secret until now.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01It was labelled "Strictly Private And Confidential".
0:36:02 > 0:36:06This document, with Timothy Johnston's name attached to it,
0:36:06 > 0:36:08contained seven questions
0:36:08 > 0:36:11which had apparently been put to DUP Assembly members,
0:36:11 > 0:36:14complete with detailed responses.
0:36:17 > 0:36:21Five of the questions within this so-called attitude survey
0:36:21 > 0:36:24addressed Ian Paisley's continued leadership.
0:36:30 > 0:36:34I have a copy of Timothy Johnston's survey here in my hand.
0:36:34 > 0:36:38Among the key findings of the survey, there was talk of
0:36:38 > 0:36:41your not being across details
0:36:41 > 0:36:44and not being capable of doing the job,
0:36:44 > 0:36:46your judgement being questionable,
0:36:46 > 0:36:49for example, your association with Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51The survey speaks of
0:36:51 > 0:36:54your poor performance at First Minister's Question Time.
0:36:54 > 0:36:58The survey also challenges your ability to think on your feet
0:36:58 > 0:37:03and talks of "Chuckle Brothers" behaviour with Martin McGuinness.
0:37:03 > 0:37:07Wasn't that a pretty vicious assault on you as a person
0:37:07 > 0:37:11and on your leadership of the party and as First Minister?
0:37:12 > 0:37:16If they wanted to put me on trial, why did they not put me on trial?
0:37:16 > 0:37:18Why did they not bring charges?
0:37:18 > 0:37:24You'd think if it was so bad that these people were so worried,
0:37:24 > 0:37:29they would have taken the opportunity to get a meeting together
0:37:29 > 0:37:35that would have had the power to say to me, "Get out, or stay in."
0:37:35 > 0:37:38And, of course, that never was done.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42Five of the seven questions asked in the Timothy Johnston survey
0:37:42 > 0:37:43relate directly to your leadership.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47- Yes.- Question three of the survey reads as follows...
0:37:47 > 0:37:51"How well do you think Dr Paisley has been performing over the last year?"
0:37:51 > 0:37:53Question four reads,
0:37:53 > 0:37:58"What are the issues that concern you most about Dr Paisley's performance?"
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Mr Paisley, did you ask Timothy Johnston for an analysis of
0:38:01 > 0:38:05- your leadership when you asked him to complete a document for you?- No.
0:38:05 > 0:38:07So are you saying, Mr Paisley,
0:38:07 > 0:38:12that you did not ask Timothy Johnston to conduct any survey
0:38:12 > 0:38:16about your stepping down as First Minister or as party leader?
0:38:16 > 0:38:23No. I asked him to give me a general view of the party,
0:38:23 > 0:38:25and its thinking at that present time.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28Timothy Johnston says
0:38:28 > 0:38:32the survey was carried out at Ian Paisley's specific request
0:38:32 > 0:38:34and he rejects any suggestion that it had been framed
0:38:34 > 0:38:37with the intention of bringing about
0:38:37 > 0:38:39his party leader's removal.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43Mr Paisley, the survey also showed that 83% of the MLAs
0:38:43 > 0:38:49believed that you ought to retire as leader and First Minister in 2008.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51And some even feared that you must...
0:38:51 > 0:38:54"go soon or the party will disintegrate"
0:38:54 > 0:38:57and the party situation "will not be retrievable".
0:38:57 > 0:39:01- Was there any validity attaching to that statement?- None whatsoever.
0:39:01 > 0:39:03So what was it all about?
0:39:03 > 0:39:05Getting rid of Ian Paisley.
0:39:05 > 0:39:07In whose interest?
0:39:07 > 0:39:11The interests of the people who took over.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14Peter Robinson, would he have been among them, do you think?
0:39:14 > 0:39:19Oh, yes, he would have been. I mean, politics is politics.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23You have to face up to the fact that
0:39:23 > 0:39:27there are a lot of people in politics for their own ends.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30At another point, the survey findings say,
0:39:30 > 0:39:32"There can be no sense of Dr Paisley
0:39:32 > 0:39:35"being stabbed in the back or pushed."
0:39:35 > 0:39:38Wasn't the DUP effectively, though,
0:39:38 > 0:39:40stabbing you in the back,
0:39:40 > 0:39:43at the same time as trying to give the impression that
0:39:43 > 0:39:45you were leaving as party leader,
0:39:45 > 0:39:48stepping down as party leader and First Minister of your own volition
0:39:48 > 0:39:51whereas, in fact, they were pushing you out the door?
0:39:51 > 0:39:53All I can say is, it seems that
0:39:53 > 0:39:59they have sort of wanted to keep very quiet about it.
0:39:59 > 0:40:03Mr Paisley, in stating in that survey
0:40:03 > 0:40:08that the DUP must not do a "Free Church act",
0:40:08 > 0:40:13concluding that the party would be destroyed if you were pushed out,
0:40:13 > 0:40:18wasn't the author of that statement effectively saying that
0:40:18 > 0:40:24the Free Presbyterian Church clumsily killed you off
0:40:24 > 0:40:28and that the party must not be found correspondingly guilty,
0:40:28 > 0:40:32carelessly killing you off because of the fall-out,
0:40:32 > 0:40:36that it might damage the party and damage individuals in the party?
0:40:36 > 0:40:38Wasn't that really what that was about?
0:40:38 > 0:40:42Well, it could have been, but I didn't...
0:40:42 > 0:40:49I didn't walk about as if I was condemned and ready for the rope.
0:40:49 > 0:40:53I was in charge of the party
0:40:53 > 0:40:56as long as I wanted to be in charge of the party,
0:40:56 > 0:41:02and it is strange to record that
0:41:02 > 0:41:06nobody came forward and said, "We're going to put Ian Paisley out."
0:41:06 > 0:41:11Anything they did in getting me out was done behind backs.
0:41:11 > 0:41:15When you read what they wrote about your son, Ian,
0:41:15 > 0:41:20they spoke of damaging stories in the press, "nothing is being done,"
0:41:20 > 0:41:25and Ian Paisley Jr being above discipline in the party.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28It speaks of your son causing massive sleaze and scandal
0:41:28 > 0:41:30and causing harm to the party.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32The survey also says that
0:41:32 > 0:41:38a successful budget got lost in the story about planning and sleaze.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41We're talking about blood on blood now, Mr Paisley.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44How hurtful were those remarks?
0:41:44 > 0:41:46They were disgraceful.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49They were absolutely disgraceful.
0:41:49 > 0:41:55And they were disgraceful because the man that they put in my position
0:41:55 > 0:42:01couldn't keep his own seat in Westminster,
0:42:01 > 0:42:07and my son, who followed me, had a marvellous victory.
0:42:07 > 0:42:13And for once, we're seeing the true nature of the beast,
0:42:13 > 0:42:19that there was a beast here who was prepared to go forward
0:42:19 > 0:42:23to the destruction of the party,
0:42:23 > 0:42:28because losing seats in Northern Ireland is a very serious thing,
0:42:28 > 0:42:36and for East Belfast not to be a Unionist seat in the House of Commons
0:42:36 > 0:42:41is a terrible, a terrible blow.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46Ian's name was cleared by the authorities in Stormont.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49Everything that was said against him was proved to be false,
0:42:49 > 0:42:52and there was no sleaze, he never brought any sleaze,
0:42:52 > 0:42:55his wife didn't do anything wrong, he didn't do anything wrong,
0:42:55 > 0:42:59there was nothing morally wrong with his character or his life,
0:42:59 > 0:43:03and we know eventually where the sleaze did come from.
0:43:03 > 0:43:05From where did it come, do you think?
0:43:05 > 0:43:09It came in the home of the man who's now leader himself, Peter Robinson.
0:43:09 > 0:43:13It came from his family, and not from the Paisley family.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16Mr Paisley, the survey also says that Ian Jr set policy
0:43:16 > 0:43:18and was not capable of anything other than
0:43:18 > 0:43:20bringing scandal on the party.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23It added that Ian Jr helped to destroy you.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26Did Ian Jr help to destroy you?
0:43:26 > 0:43:28That's nonsense.
0:43:28 > 0:43:30It shows the hatred that they had for him.
0:43:30 > 0:43:36Tell me this - why do you think that this document, this survey,
0:43:36 > 0:43:41accused your son of causing massive sleaze and scandal?
0:43:41 > 0:43:44Why would they do that?
0:43:44 > 0:43:46Because they're afraid of him.
0:43:46 > 0:43:52That's why, they're afraid that he... the people like him.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54It's a terrible thing
0:43:54 > 0:43:59that they are prepared to put even seats into jeopardy
0:43:59 > 0:44:02for their own ends, and...
0:44:04 > 0:44:06..there is no doubt about it,
0:44:06 > 0:44:12that they got their first terrible and rude awakening
0:44:12 > 0:44:17when Peter Robinson was defeated.
0:44:17 > 0:44:22I mean, that was a tremendous setback.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26Mr Paisley, just how hurtful was it to you as an individual
0:44:26 > 0:44:30who had founded the party, who had developed the party,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33who had developed so many people within the party,
0:44:33 > 0:44:35to suddenly be confronted with this document,
0:44:35 > 0:44:39with this survey, making all these allegations against you personally
0:44:39 > 0:44:43about your incompetence, about your bad judgement?
0:44:43 > 0:44:45How hurt were you internally?
0:44:45 > 0:44:47Oh, I...
0:44:47 > 0:44:53Every man that has done a work has always been criticised
0:44:53 > 0:44:56and, er, as the Scriptures tell us,
0:44:56 > 0:45:04friends, people, so-called friends are probably secret enemies.
0:45:04 > 0:45:06When your husband came home that night
0:45:06 > 0:45:10and he threw the document down, as I understand it,
0:45:10 > 0:45:12what did you make of that survey?
0:45:12 > 0:45:15What were your first impressions of that document?
0:45:15 > 0:45:18I was furious, to put it mildly.
0:45:18 > 0:45:22I felt like taking it and ramming it down Timothy Johnston's throat.
0:45:24 > 0:45:28There was this reference to "Chuckle Brothers" behaviour and photographs
0:45:28 > 0:45:31and laughing with Martin McGuinness as a major concern.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34This was one of the big preoccupations.
0:45:34 > 0:45:38Did they want Martin McGuinness and him to come on fighting one another
0:45:38 > 0:45:40and shouting at one another?
0:45:40 > 0:45:42Whenever everybody was delighted,
0:45:42 > 0:45:46everybody in Northern Ireland was delighted
0:45:46 > 0:45:51at the friendship that had developed between the two men
0:45:51 > 0:45:56and that they were each doing their bit to bring prosperity back,
0:45:56 > 0:45:58and I think instead of castigating them,
0:45:58 > 0:46:00they should have been commended.
0:46:02 > 0:46:06Do you feel, Mrs Paisley, that an impatience had grown up
0:46:06 > 0:46:08inside the Democratic Unionist Party?
0:46:08 > 0:46:12That there was a feeling that the time had come
0:46:12 > 0:46:16for Peter Robinson to get his hands on the reins of power?
0:46:16 > 0:46:21He wanted that for a long time. And, in fact, I remember
0:46:21 > 0:46:25when we were coming up to the signing of the Agreement,
0:46:25 > 0:46:27that they thought Ian should have stood down then
0:46:27 > 0:46:29and handed the whole thing over to him,
0:46:29 > 0:46:35but Ian had done all the hard work and had made all the contacts,
0:46:35 > 0:46:37and I think he was only...
0:46:39 > 0:46:44..receiving the just rewards for all he had done and all his work,
0:46:44 > 0:46:48and seeing the country back on the road to prosperity again.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53Exactly one week later, in February 2008,
0:46:53 > 0:46:56after receiving the confidential document
0:46:56 > 0:46:58targeting Ian Paisley's leadership,
0:46:58 > 0:47:01the next act in the drama would be played out.
0:47:04 > 0:47:07You were in your room in Stormont Castle,
0:47:07 > 0:47:10in the First Minister's office, getting ready,
0:47:10 > 0:47:15preparing for a trip to Dublin for a meeting the next morning.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18- Do you recall that moment? - Yes, yes, I do.
0:47:18 > 0:47:22- Was Peter Robinson in the room when you came out?- He was.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24- Was Nigel Dodds there?- He was.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27- Was Maurice Morrow there?- Yes.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30Do you recall, was Timothy Johnston, your special adviser, there?
0:47:30 > 0:47:33- Yes.- What happened?
0:47:33 > 0:47:40Nigel Dodds said to me, "We want you to be gone by Friday."
0:47:40 > 0:47:44I just more or less smirked, and...
0:47:44 > 0:47:46But Peter said, "Oh, no, no, no."
0:47:46 > 0:47:50He says, "You need to stay in for another couple of months."
0:47:50 > 0:47:53Mr Paisley, when Nigel Dodds said to you,
0:47:53 > 0:47:55"We want you gone by Friday,"
0:47:55 > 0:47:59did you genuinely believe at that point in time
0:47:59 > 0:48:02that he meant that you should quit, retire,
0:48:02 > 0:48:06- step down as First Minister and party leader by Friday?- Yes.
0:48:06 > 0:48:09When you left that meeting, Mr Paisley, did you feel that
0:48:09 > 0:48:12you were dead in the water as First Minister and party leader?
0:48:12 > 0:48:15Did you think your tenure of office was finished?
0:48:15 > 0:48:18No, I didn't think it at all.
0:48:18 > 0:48:21I think that according to them, they wanted it,
0:48:21 > 0:48:23but I sort of laughed at...
0:48:23 > 0:48:28one wanted two months to prepare the way for himself!
0:48:28 > 0:48:31And the other one, I don't know what he wanted.
0:48:31 > 0:48:36We put Ian Paisley's account to Peter Robinson, Nigel Dodds,
0:48:36 > 0:48:38Maurice Morrow and Timothy Johnston.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40In their response, they said that
0:48:40 > 0:48:43no such meeting took place as described.
0:48:43 > 0:48:47They added, "This is corroborated by indisputable evidence,"
0:48:47 > 0:48:50and said the timing of Dr Paisley's departure had been
0:48:50 > 0:48:52"entirely a matter for him".
0:48:54 > 0:48:57Well, he came in and he leaned over the chair
0:48:57 > 0:49:01and he said, "The mighty Dodds wants me to go by the end of this week."
0:49:01 > 0:49:03How shocked were you?
0:49:03 > 0:49:07I said, "He's a cheeky sod to ask you to do any such thing."
0:49:07 > 0:49:10And I said, "What authority is he?"
0:49:10 > 0:49:12And...
0:49:12 > 0:49:14I was angry and I was shocked,
0:49:14 > 0:49:18because I thought of how he had been treated by Ian in Europe.
0:49:18 > 0:49:21Ian had given him this post to encourage him,
0:49:21 > 0:49:26and then this is the thanks he gets at the end of the day.
0:49:26 > 0:49:28How would you characterise
0:49:28 > 0:49:31what Peter Robinson and the leadership did to your husband?
0:49:31 > 0:49:34Well, I think they assassinated him
0:49:34 > 0:49:39by their words and by their deeds
0:49:39 > 0:49:41and by the way they treated him,
0:49:41 > 0:49:44and I think they treated him shamefully.
0:49:46 > 0:49:50Ian Paisley announced his resignation as First Minister
0:49:50 > 0:49:54in March 2008. Peter Robinson and his senior colleagues point to
0:49:54 > 0:49:59the very different version of events given by Ian Paisley that day.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01Originally, when you took office,
0:50:01 > 0:50:04you said you intended to see out a full four-year term.
0:50:04 > 0:50:06What made you change your mind?
0:50:06 > 0:50:08Was it pressure from others in your party who were unhappy
0:50:08 > 0:50:11- about the direction of your leadership?- No. It wasn't.
0:50:11 > 0:50:16I don't think I can be pressured. I'm too old in the hide for that.
0:50:16 > 0:50:22I have been up and down and up and down for many long years
0:50:22 > 0:50:24before you were out of nappies,
0:50:24 > 0:50:29and I can say to you that Ian Paisley is not easy to be pushed around.
0:50:29 > 0:50:31I have always tried to...
0:50:31 > 0:50:34Ian Paisley's former colleagues argue that the passage of time
0:50:34 > 0:50:36has now diminished his recollection.
0:50:37 > 0:50:41Why did you not reveal that Nigel Dodds,
0:50:41 > 0:50:44at a meeting involving Peter Robinson and Maurice Morrow,
0:50:44 > 0:50:48had told you that he wanted you out by Friday?
0:50:48 > 0:50:53Well, I felt that was business, private business of the people
0:50:53 > 0:50:56who were members of the party and not for me to tell them anything.
0:50:56 > 0:51:01Are you saying, Mr Paisley, even though the gun was put to your head,
0:51:01 > 0:51:04that they forced you out, that you decided not to fight them
0:51:04 > 0:51:06because you didn't want to split the party?
0:51:06 > 0:51:10Yes, I wanted the best for the party.
0:51:10 > 0:51:14And also, I...
0:51:14 > 0:51:20I wasn't a young man, and...
0:51:20 > 0:51:26I was quite happy, at the end of the day, to say,
0:51:26 > 0:51:29"Well, I have fought a good fight, finished the course
0:51:29 > 0:51:31"and kept the faith."
0:51:31 > 0:51:36They did a dirty trick on him, dirty deeds on him,
0:51:36 > 0:51:42and in the end, he was really left with no option but to stand down.
0:51:42 > 0:51:45When you look back now,
0:51:45 > 0:51:51these years after your departure and your stepping down,
0:51:51 > 0:51:54do you have any feelings about
0:51:54 > 0:51:57the people who showed you the door, effectively?
0:51:57 > 0:52:00No! I've no feelings, I'm a very happy man.
0:52:00 > 0:52:04My wife still lives with me and loves me.
0:52:04 > 0:52:07If Peter Robinson walked in here today, sir,
0:52:07 > 0:52:10- how would you get on with Peter Robinson today?- Well,
0:52:10 > 0:52:17it would be very interesting to see what he had to say at this moment.
0:52:17 > 0:52:19I would listen with great attention.
0:52:19 > 0:52:23He was your great lieutenant, the great strategist, we were told.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26He travelled the journey, the road with you.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29Could you have the same rapport, the same relationship with him today
0:52:29 > 0:52:33- that you had all those years ago? - No, I don't think so.
0:52:33 > 0:52:37I don't think so. His ways are not my ways, and...
0:52:38 > 0:52:43..he has to, he has to answer for how he works.
0:52:47 > 0:52:51If losing the moderatorship of his church,
0:52:51 > 0:52:52losing the leadership of his party
0:52:52 > 0:52:56and losing the highest political office was not enough,
0:52:56 > 0:52:58Ian Paisley could still take comfort
0:52:58 > 0:53:01in the sanctuary of his beloved Martyrs Memorial,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03where he continued to preach.
0:53:07 > 0:53:09But come the autumn of 2011,
0:53:09 > 0:53:14arrangements were being put in place to remove him from his pulpit too.
0:53:16 > 0:53:20The coup de grace came in the form of a letter from the kirk session,
0:53:20 > 0:53:24signed by all seven elders of the Martyrs Memorial Church.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28The message was unambiguous.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30They wanted Ian Paisley out.
0:53:33 > 0:53:37As a family, on receipt of a correspondence
0:53:37 > 0:53:40from the elders of the Martyrs Memorial,
0:53:40 > 0:53:45how did you feel when that correspondence reached you?
0:53:45 > 0:53:46Absolutely shattered.
0:53:46 > 0:53:51We just could not believe that Ian, after 65 years' ministry
0:53:51 > 0:53:56in the same church, continuous ministry for all those years
0:53:56 > 0:53:58and leading the church and building it,
0:53:58 > 0:54:01that these men take this attitude
0:54:01 > 0:54:03and all of a sudden want to boot him out.
0:54:03 > 0:54:07We just could not fathom it, and we couldn't understand why.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10In fact, one of them said he was destroying the church,
0:54:10 > 0:54:13he was wrecking the church, that was his terms.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16Mr Paisley, how shocked were you
0:54:16 > 0:54:18when you received the letter
0:54:18 > 0:54:23from the kirk of your church, signed by the senior figures in the church?
0:54:23 > 0:54:26How hurtful was it for the family?
0:54:26 > 0:54:28Well, it was hurtful that
0:54:28 > 0:54:32that was the way they thought they would treat us,
0:54:32 > 0:54:34and they did that.
0:54:34 > 0:54:39And they will have to answer to the people
0:54:39 > 0:54:45and they will also have to answer to God, at the end of the day.
0:54:45 > 0:54:46It was a very difficult...
0:54:46 > 0:54:47It was very difficult...
0:54:47 > 0:54:49It was a heartbreaking time
0:54:49 > 0:54:52and, in fact, the morning that he made the announcement
0:54:52 > 0:54:59that he was retiring at the end of the year, his opening words were,
0:54:59 > 0:55:03"I did not think I would be making this announcement here this morning."
0:55:03 > 0:55:07And people immediately caught onto that, that it wasn't his way.
0:55:07 > 0:55:11There was just a stunned silence right across the church,
0:55:11 > 0:55:16and afterwards, people were coming out openly weeping
0:55:16 > 0:55:21and they said to me, "We didn't... We didn't expect that this morning."
0:55:21 > 0:55:25And then some people said, "Well, there must have something happened
0:55:25 > 0:55:28"because that's not the way he would do things,
0:55:28 > 0:55:31"he has never done anything like that before."
0:55:31 > 0:55:36And they just realised in themselves that there was something,
0:55:36 > 0:55:39some skulduggery going on somewhere.
0:55:39 > 0:55:44And I didn't want to say anything and we all just kept quiet about it,
0:55:44 > 0:55:48but since then, there's been a lot of...
0:55:50 > 0:55:55..talk and stories being circulated which are without foundation,
0:55:55 > 0:56:00and that's why I feel that we need to put the matter straight.
0:56:00 > 0:56:05Is it a fact that no member of your family ever enters Martyrs Memorial,
0:56:05 > 0:56:07including your husband?
0:56:07 > 0:56:12That's right. It was almost like a death, you know. It was almost,
0:56:12 > 0:56:16you had that feeling that this person has gone,
0:56:16 > 0:56:20everything has gone and it will never be the same again,
0:56:20 > 0:56:22it can't ever be the same again.
0:56:22 > 0:56:27Just how emotional, how difficult was it going back for your farewell,
0:56:27 > 0:56:31given that the umbilical cord had been broken somewhat?
0:56:31 > 0:56:37Oh, it... The Lord gave me help, and I was among my friends.
0:56:37 > 0:56:41Those people that had come to hear me preach were my friends,
0:56:41 > 0:56:45they were my friends, some of them for over 50 years,
0:56:45 > 0:56:47and, I mean, I was at home.
0:56:47 > 0:56:51Why, though, would you not go and worship each Sunday morning
0:56:51 > 0:56:53in your former church?
0:56:53 > 0:56:56Why would members of your family no longer go there and worship?
0:56:56 > 0:57:02Well, I think that they are better not going to worship there
0:57:02 > 0:57:06because they would not be happy,
0:57:06 > 0:57:12and you don't go to a church to sit on nails.
0:57:12 > 0:57:18You go to a church to sit in a place where there is rest and peace.
0:57:18 > 0:57:22I know he was heartbroken and I believe, I'm going to say this,
0:57:22 > 0:57:25I believe that it was the heartbreak
0:57:25 > 0:57:28that made him ill, took a toll on his health.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32Less than two weeks later,
0:57:32 > 0:57:36the Paisley family was facing another reality,
0:57:36 > 0:57:40the prospect that Ian Paisley's life was nearing an end.
0:57:41 > 0:57:45He had been admitted to hospital and was on a life-support machine.
0:57:46 > 0:57:50Is it a fact that you reached a point where you actually
0:57:50 > 0:57:53started discussing his funeral?
0:57:53 > 0:57:54Yes, yes, we did.
0:57:54 > 0:57:58We had to do that and have discussions,
0:57:58 > 0:58:00and I said, "Look, we have to think about it.
0:58:00 > 0:58:04"We're not rushing into anything, and we might not need it
0:58:04 > 0:58:08"and I hope we don't, but we have got to face facts."
0:58:08 > 0:58:13And for four days, he was just hovering between life and death,
0:58:13 > 0:58:17the first four days in intensive care, and he was in there,
0:58:17 > 0:58:21he got out of it on the ninth day, but...
0:58:22 > 0:58:24..those were four very...
0:58:25 > 0:58:29..heavy and oppressing days for us.
0:58:33 > 0:58:37Against the odds, Ian Paisley pulled through,
0:58:37 > 0:58:41forcing his obituarists to rewrite their scripts.
0:58:45 > 0:58:50Enoch Powell, who in many ways didn't achieve his full potential
0:58:50 > 0:58:53and lost many, many battles,
0:58:53 > 0:58:55said that all political lives,
0:58:55 > 0:59:00unless they are cut off in midstream at a happy juncture, end in failure
0:59:00 > 0:59:05because that is the nature of politics and of human affairs.
0:59:05 > 0:59:08- You built a mighty church.- Yes.
0:59:08 > 0:59:10You built a mighty party.
0:59:10 > 0:59:14Do you feel what your church did to you
0:59:14 > 0:59:17and the senior figures in your church
0:59:17 > 0:59:21and what those in your party did to you, ultimately,
0:59:21 > 0:59:25pushing you out the door, seizing power for themselves,
0:59:25 > 0:59:29resulted in your having failed, in some respect?
0:59:29 > 0:59:32No, I haven't failed at all.
0:59:32 > 0:59:37And I have no major regrets.
0:59:37 > 0:59:42I'm not infallible. I never claimed to be the Pope.
0:59:42 > 0:59:46I just was just Ian Paisley, an Ulsterman,
0:59:46 > 0:59:51and I look back, I have regrets.
0:59:51 > 0:59:59I have regrets that we are not yet out of the difficulties
0:59:59 > 1:00:01that we have been in,
1:00:01 > 1:00:07but I have also a rejoicing in my heart that I kept the faith.