0:00:02 > 0:00:07Every year, over 12,000 people pass away without leaving a will, and seemingly with no next of kin.
0:00:07 > 0:00:11But, often, there is a distant relative who stands to inherit,
0:00:11 > 0:00:13and that's where the Heir Hunters come in.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33On today's programme, the Heir Hunters are left
0:00:33 > 0:00:37scratching their heads when they struggle to solve a mystery
0:00:37 > 0:00:41where a woman has passed away leaving tens of thousands of pounds.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43I'm going grey on this case today.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47An estranged family come to terms with their mother's secret past,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50and discover relatives they never knew existed.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54It's unbelievable that somebody can completely guillotine a relative
0:00:54 > 0:00:57and have absolutely nothing to do with her.
0:00:57 > 0:01:01And we'll have details of some of the hundreds of unclaimed estates.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03Could you be in line for a windfall?
0:01:05 > 0:01:09In the UK, about two-thirds of people do not have a will,
0:01:09 > 0:01:13and therefore leave no record of their last wishes.
0:01:13 > 0:01:19If they die and leave an estate and an obvious relative cannot be found,
0:01:19 > 0:01:22then the money automatically defaults to the Government,
0:01:22 > 0:01:24who last year made £18 million in unclaimed estates.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29There are over 12,000 cases of unclaimed estates
0:01:29 > 0:01:32in the UK every year, and over 30 companies
0:01:32 > 0:01:35make it their business to track down the rightful heirs,
0:01:35 > 0:01:38and put them in touch with the fortune they never knew existed.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41With so much money at stake, and working for a commission,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44it's a lucrative business and, therefore,
0:01:44 > 0:01:46competition can be fierce.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49It's not going to beat me, I refuse to let it beat me.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Fraser & Fraser have been heir hunting for almost a century,
0:01:53 > 0:01:57and have handled over £100 million worth of inheritance
0:01:57 > 0:02:01in the last 10 years alone. The team leave no stone unturned
0:02:01 > 0:02:05in their search for the heirs to unclaimed fortunes.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14It's 7.00am on Thursday morning, and one of the busiest times of the week.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18Every Thursday, the Treasury release the Bona Vacantia,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21a list of the UK's unclaimed estates.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24In the highly competitive probate research business,
0:02:24 > 0:02:29it's a race against time to work out which estates are valuable and worth further research.
0:02:29 > 0:02:34The team at Fraser & Fraser have directed their attention towards one case in particular.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Company boss, Neil Fraser, is assessing its value.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40This is the case of Emms,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44Beatrice May Emms, maiden name, Mansell.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49In this case we've identified an address, which was a nursing home.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51I then had another look at that list again,
0:02:51 > 0:02:55identified an older address where she appeared to have moved out,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58and it would appear that she does still own the property.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00Its not a hugely valuable property in Birmingham,
0:03:00 > 0:03:04a building site one side of the road, probably in the £80-90,000 mark.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09This estimated value makes the case still worth investigating,
0:03:09 > 0:03:14so Alan, one of the team's senior researchers, gets straight to work.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18The team have very little information to go on,
0:03:18 > 0:03:25so they use census, birth, death and marriage certificates to build a family tree for the deceased.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27Going back generations and generations,
0:03:27 > 0:03:31the team hope to uncover potential heirs to an estate.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38Beatrice May Emms passed away in Birmingham in July, 2009.
0:03:38 > 0:03:43She left a house which is estimated to be around £80,000, which means
0:03:43 > 0:03:47it could be a relatively lucrative case for the Heir Hunters.
0:03:47 > 0:03:52Beatrice married Bertie Emms in 1944, and they had a son, David.
0:03:52 > 0:03:56Sadly, Beatrice was widowed in 1977.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01David continued to live with his mother, until he too passed away in 2001.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05Beatrice worked in the local shop, and could often be seen out
0:04:05 > 0:04:08with her beloved corgis and Basset hounds.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12When Beatrice's health took a turn for the worst, she was admitted to
0:04:12 > 0:04:16a nursing home, where she spent the last eight years of her life.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27Senior manager, David Pacifico, thinks he might have enough research
0:04:27 > 0:04:30to start putting together an extensive family tree.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36It looks like the deceased may have been one of about eight children,
0:04:36 > 0:04:39and it's all local. If we're correct about this,
0:04:39 > 0:04:42we've got potentially the deceased's birth in Wednesbury,
0:04:42 > 0:04:46which is the West Midlands, and her mother's maiden name being Webb.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50So we've done a search for Mansell to Web, and we've found
0:04:50 > 0:04:54seven or eight other possible siblings to the deceased.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59We've now come up with a current address of one of the siblings,
0:04:59 > 0:05:03so we could have at least one brother being alive.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08I want to go and phone it through.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11But, before Dave can pick up the phone, Alan has an update for him.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15He's found another marriage of a Beatrice May Emms, which would
0:05:15 > 0:05:18give them a much earlier date of birth than they previously thought.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20Percy SC Emms...
0:05:20 > 0:05:22In 1944. Oh, this is wrong.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25I think this is wrong.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29Yeah, but if she marries in '44, we've got the wrong birth.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Not too easy, to say the least.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35The trouble was there were two Emms married two Mansells.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38We got the wrong Emms to Mansell,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41which means we got the wrong birth of the deceased.
0:05:41 > 0:05:46So we now think we've got the right deceased's marriage, therefore
0:05:46 > 0:05:50she's much older than we thought, so she was born around 1919.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55So we're now checking on her parentage and brothers and sisters.
0:05:55 > 0:06:01Sadly, Dave has been barking up the wrong tree, and all of his hard work so far is now destined for the bin.
0:06:01 > 0:06:02Time to start again.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07Right, these are the names. Beatrice May Mansell,
0:06:07 > 0:06:11we think was born September 1919, in Dudley.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14The deceased had a son called David.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17He died in 2001.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21After a couple of false starts they seem to be back on the right track.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25We've got two possible marriages for the deceased's son.
0:06:25 > 0:06:26Paul is doing an inquiry,
0:06:26 > 0:06:29and I want to brief him up-to-date on this so far.
0:06:31 > 0:06:35It's time to call upon the expertise of the travelling heir hunters.
0:06:35 > 0:06:40Throughout the UK, Frasers have a team of researchers on standby
0:06:40 > 0:06:42who are able to hit the road at a moment's notice.
0:06:42 > 0:06:47Their job is to track down vital clues and information on the case,
0:06:47 > 0:06:49and, eventually, sign up the rightful heirs.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51They have to work fast,
0:06:51 > 0:06:53as a rival heir hunting company is never far behind.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55Pleased to meet you.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58Paul Matthews is based in the Midlands,
0:06:58 > 0:07:02so he's the first port of call for Dave who needs to firm up
0:07:02 > 0:07:05his speculations on the Beatrice May Emms case.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07'We've got some information,'
0:07:07 > 0:07:11- it looks like everything seems to be coming out of Dudley.- Oh, right.
0:07:11 > 0:07:16Dave needs Paul to use his local contacts and put in a call to Dudley register office
0:07:16 > 0:07:19to find out the details on Beatrice's death certificate.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22Although they will need the physical certificate later,
0:07:22 > 0:07:26the information conveyed over the phone gives them a head start.
0:07:26 > 0:07:33- And the informant?- 'The informant was her niece, Linda Mary Power.'
0:07:33 > 0:07:36That's probably a niece on the late husband's side, I would think.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Otherwise, she'd be entitled, wouldn't she?
0:07:39 > 0:07:42OK, that's great. Thank you very much for your help.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46Paul immediately relays this update back to Dave.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48'Good morning, Fraser & Fraser.'
0:07:48 > 0:07:52- Paul Matthews after Dave P, please. - 'Thank you.'
0:07:52 > 0:07:55- 'Hello, Paul.'- Hello, Dave. Right, got your pen poised?
0:07:55 > 0:07:58It's not the outcome Dave expected.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01She was born 22/2/1923.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04- '1923?'- Yeah.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07Right, the date of birth of the deceased
0:08:07 > 0:08:11is not one that we had before. She was born in 1923,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14so we've got to start all over again now.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17It's 9:30am, and they're back to square one.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22Before you know for certain when she's born, there could be several
0:08:22 > 0:08:25potential births for the deceased, which we had in this case.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29Now we've got the death certificate, it shows the date and place of birth,
0:08:29 > 0:08:32which we've looked up and now confirmed it's correct.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36So the question now is to confirm her parents
0:08:36 > 0:08:40and confirm whether or not they had any other children and so forth.
0:08:42 > 0:08:49It has been a frustrating morning, but at least now the team can work from a definite date of birth.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51Meanwhile, Paul heads to Beatrice's street.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55The neighbours might be able to shed some light on this case.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58Sorry to bother you, I'm making some inquiries about the old lady
0:08:58 > 0:09:02who used to live next door, Beatrice. Anybody round here who she
0:09:02 > 0:09:06used to know well and might be able to help us? Any friends or family?
0:09:08 > 0:09:11I've made some inquiries at the neighbours' houses.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14The house itself is obviously not occupied.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17I found out it is actually owned by the lady.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21The neighbour seems to think there's family out at Stetchworth,
0:09:21 > 0:09:24a lady called Linda. So at least we've put a value on it,
0:09:24 > 0:09:27we know there's a property which is probably worth over £100,000,
0:09:27 > 0:09:30so it's an estate which we will look at. OK.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34The informant on the death is Linda Powers.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38She's Beatrice's niece, but by marriage, and, therefore,
0:09:38 > 0:09:41not entitled to the estate. They knew one another well,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44especially in the latter part of Beatrice's life.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I've known her since I was a child. I used to go up and have
0:09:47 > 0:09:51cups of tea with her, visit her in the shop where she used to work,
0:09:51 > 0:09:53so we've always been in Betty's life.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59We had her down here for meals, tea, Christmas,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02when she was eventually on her own.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06She's just always been there in my life.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16I've just pulled up outside Birmingham registry office.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Paul's arrived at the Birmingham register office.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22It's already 10.00am, so he has no time to waste.
0:10:22 > 0:10:28I'm going to get a move on, anyway, because I want to get in there. OK, Dave, cheers, bye.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31Any delays give the competition an advantage.
0:10:33 > 0:10:34Thank you.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Paul is collecting the birth and marriage certificates of Beatrice.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42This is what we've been waiting for. Paul Matthews after Dave P, please.
0:10:42 > 0:10:4722nd February, 1923, Beatrice May...
0:10:48 > 0:10:50father Bert James Mansell.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55The mum was Kathleen May Mansell, formerly Pearce.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57Beatrice's parents were
0:10:57 > 0:11:01Albert's James Mansell, and Kathleen May Pearce.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05Their only daughter, Beatrice, married Bertie Emms,
0:11:05 > 0:11:07and they had one son, David.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09Knowing that Beatrice was an only child and
0:11:09 > 0:11:14David had no children of his own, the team must now look for cousins.
0:11:21 > 0:11:26Back at the office, another researcher, Gareth, is brought in to assist Dave.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29He gets to work on the information that Paul has just called in.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33They've just got the names of the parents of the deceased,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36which are Bert James and Kathleen May,
0:11:36 > 0:11:40so I'm seeing if I can find a death for them
0:11:40 > 0:11:42so we can establish when they were born.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45Because it looks like the deceased was an only child,
0:11:45 > 0:11:47in which case we need to go back to cousins.
0:11:47 > 0:11:51But, so far, I haven't found anything yet.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59While Gareth tries one approach, Dave thinks he's found a lead on
0:11:59 > 0:12:02the marriage certificate of Beatrice's parents.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05One of the interesting things on the marriage is the witness,
0:12:05 > 0:12:08which we're looking at. Two witnesses called Grigg,
0:12:08 > 0:12:12Richard G Grigg, and a Florence H Grigg.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Possibly could it be a married aunt?
0:12:15 > 0:12:20It's Florence H Pearce. The sister of the mother,
0:12:20 > 0:12:24who was Florence H Pearce, marries a Richard G Grigg.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28I often find that witnesses, very often, are relatives,
0:12:28 > 0:12:32and I thought, I'm hoping, it might be a married sister, and it is.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34We now need to know if she's got any children.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38Gareth's already on to it.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41We've done an initial search from that, and it doesn't
0:12:41 > 0:12:45look like they have any kids, certainly not in England and Wales.
0:12:45 > 0:12:50If it's just the two of them, Florence and Kathleen,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53it's going to be a dead side of the tree.
0:12:53 > 0:12:59William Walter Pearce married Rose Grimes and they had two daughters,
0:12:59 > 0:13:00Kathleen and Florence.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Florence married Richard Grigg, but they had no children.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Beatrice was the daughter of Kathleen,
0:13:07 > 0:13:10and after marrying Bertie, they had one son, David.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14Although he married Barbara Kelly, they had no children.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16This means there are no living relatives
0:13:16 > 0:13:18on the maternal side of the tree.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21If there are any living heirs, they're on her father's side.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24At the moment we're having difficulty trying to identify
0:13:24 > 0:13:28the birth of the father and any census on that side.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32According to his marriage he's supposed to be born around 1896,
0:13:32 > 0:13:36and the Berts or the Alberts that we've found don't match the year
0:13:36 > 0:13:38when he's supposed to to be born,
0:13:38 > 0:13:40unless he lied about his age on his marriage.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43It's not coming out as quickly as I would have hoped.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Later on Heir Hunters, the mystery deepens.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51This is unbelievable, how on earth did she register
0:13:51 > 0:13:55her mother's death as the widow of Edward Mansell?
0:13:55 > 0:13:56You tell me!
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Heir hunters can be found all over the UK,
0:14:05 > 0:14:09and the search for a rightful beneficiary can take them anywhere.
0:14:09 > 0:14:14Celtic Research is run by Peter and Hector Birchwood from their offices in Wales and London,
0:14:14 > 0:14:17and their regional case managers work from home.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20Phil is an associate genealogist,
0:14:20 > 0:14:24and has been working from the peace and quiet of his garden in Wales
0:14:24 > 0:14:25for the last few years.
0:14:25 > 0:14:31Celtic Research is renowned for solving unsolvable cases.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34We don't give up on cases because of the interest, the intrigue,
0:14:34 > 0:14:36the buzz of investigation.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40I don't ever think that a case is unsolved or unsolvable.
0:14:40 > 0:14:45Phil is used to painstaking research, but few cases have tried his patience
0:14:45 > 0:14:50and dedication quite as much as that of Nancy Elizabeth Garner.
0:14:50 > 0:14:55It has been a 16-year search to find the rightful heirs.
0:14:55 > 0:15:00Nancy Elizabeth Garner died in 1991 in Northamptonshire, aged 80,
0:15:00 > 0:15:02without leaving a will.
0:15:02 > 0:15:08She left behind an estate worth in excess of £50,000.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Nancy married William in 1941.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14They had no children, and she outlived her husband.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17She was well-known in her local community of Budbrooke,
0:15:17 > 0:15:21and was looked upon as a friendly eccentric.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24She just arrived here and, at the house there,
0:15:24 > 0:15:29which I used to deliver the mail to. She just arrived and that was it.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34I don't know where she came from or any of the background.
0:15:34 > 0:15:35We assumed that she was Welsh,
0:15:35 > 0:15:37because she always retained an accent.
0:15:37 > 0:15:41She also went around on a little motorbike,
0:15:41 > 0:15:46which was something, for her, really. Very surprising.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49But, she was very friendly, always.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52You didn't see her with anyone else.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54She was always scuttling about on her own.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58She was just there, you know? Mrs G.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04In the beginning, we get the date of death on each case and, as normal,
0:16:04 > 0:16:06we order the death certificate.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10From the death certificate on the Nancy Garner case,
0:16:10 > 0:16:14we were given a date of birth and her maiden name was Davies.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18Unfortunately, after exhausting all inquiries on every record
0:16:18 > 0:16:20we could find, she didn't exist.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24After such an early setback,
0:16:24 > 0:16:28it looked as though this would be an impossible case to solve.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32That's until a change in law 10 years later.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35The introduction of the Freedom of Information Act
0:16:35 > 0:16:38offered Celtic Research a breakthrough in 2007.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41We wrote and asked, through the Freedom of Information Act,
0:16:41 > 0:16:44for more information on Nancy Elizabeth Davies,
0:16:44 > 0:16:47and we got a letter back that showed us that she was actually
0:16:47 > 0:16:50born two years earlier in a workhouse, illegitimately,
0:16:50 > 0:16:52and we worked from there.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57With this new information and a different date of birth,
0:16:57 > 0:17:01Phil was able to piece together Nancy's story much more easily.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04He soon discovered that Elizabeth Anne Davies
0:17:04 > 0:17:07gave birth to her daughter, Nancy,
0:17:07 > 0:17:10illegitimately in Pontardawe Workhouse on the 3rd March, 1911.
0:17:11 > 0:17:16To find out more, Phil had to travel to the Swansea archives,
0:17:16 > 0:17:19where he was granted special permission to search the records
0:17:19 > 0:17:23for more clues and to verify what he had been told.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27This is the register that confirmed
0:17:27 > 0:17:30that we're on the right track in this case.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34It mentions that a single woman named Elizabeth Anne Davies
0:17:34 > 0:17:37was delivered of a female child.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41Which then confirmed that the birth that we had,
0:17:41 > 0:17:443rd March, 1911, was correct.
0:17:44 > 0:17:46We had found the child.
0:17:51 > 0:17:55In the early part of the century, the workhouse was where people
0:17:55 > 0:17:58went when they were unable to support themselves financially.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02By the 1830s, the bill for dole, out-relief,
0:18:02 > 0:18:07across the country reached epic proportions. The Government decided
0:18:07 > 0:18:11that something had to be done. The workhouse had been around for
0:18:11 > 0:18:15a while and it was decided that it would become the only option if
0:18:15 > 0:18:19you were destitute, and out-relief, dole, was going to be abolished.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21By the early 1900s, in one sense,
0:18:21 > 0:18:25the physical conditions in the workhouse had actually improved
0:18:25 > 0:18:31quite a bit from Oliver Twist and gruel and that picture.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34But the thing that hadn't changed is this really great shame
0:18:34 > 0:18:36that was attached to the workhouse.
0:18:36 > 0:18:41You really had to be desperate to consider going into one.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44Maybe the fact that she was illegitimate, the workhouse
0:18:44 > 0:18:49was the most appropriate place to go and less publicised.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55Records show Nancy's mother returned to the workhouse a second time,
0:18:55 > 0:18:59to give birth to another daughter, Frances.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07From Phil's research, it seems that the sisters lived in the workhouse
0:19:07 > 0:19:10until their mid-teens, until Nancy was offered a way out.
0:19:10 > 0:19:16This is the entry where we found on October 15th, 1926,
0:19:16 > 0:19:22that she'd been taken to Northampton Hospital by the matron.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25There is no mention of her being ill,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28so we'd take it that she was taken there for service.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34Moving on from 1926, when I looked further,
0:19:34 > 0:19:40we find that Frances May Davies was taken to Northampton Hospital
0:19:40 > 0:19:45by the matron for service. So she'd gone to join her sister.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49Being taken into service meant that the girls left the workhouse
0:19:49 > 0:19:51for good and began working as domestic maids.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55We took a chance and looked for marriages in Northampton
0:19:55 > 0:19:57and we found the rest of the story.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00At the register office in Northampton,
0:20:00 > 0:20:02Phil uncovered the sisters' marriages.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06Nancy's to William Garner and Frances' to Albert Ellis,
0:20:06 > 0:20:09and then a second marriage to Csezlaw Gralak.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13But did Frances' two marriages produce any children?
0:20:13 > 0:20:17If they did, they would be heirs to Nancy's estate.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20It's a matter of trying the easiest route first,
0:20:20 > 0:20:22which was the Gralak.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24Even though Gralak, being an unusual name,
0:20:24 > 0:20:28there were a few of them, and I couldn't really pin down
0:20:28 > 0:20:34exactly who was who, but I did find, searching on the internet,
0:20:34 > 0:20:39this person called John Gralak. I gave him a ring, and he happened
0:20:39 > 0:20:42to be the right person, he was the son. I was over the moon.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46All the hard work had now panned out, we had actually solved the case.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52VIOLIN PLAYS
0:20:53 > 0:20:55John Gralak is 52 years old
0:20:55 > 0:20:58and a professional musician, living in Manchester.
0:20:58 > 0:21:03Phil from Celtic Research contacted me, and said he'd been looking for me
0:21:03 > 0:21:07for nearly 10 years, which was a big shock.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11And said that I'd possibly got an auntie,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14which I obviously never knew anything about.
0:21:14 > 0:21:20This auntie was my mother's sister, and in all my upbringing,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23she was never, ever mentioned, and I never knew she existed at all,
0:21:23 > 0:21:25so, big shock.
0:21:25 > 0:21:30Phil's revelations about Frances and his aunt Nancy's upbringing echoed John's own childhood,
0:21:30 > 0:21:33and his difficult relationship with his mother.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35It was very strict, and everybody knew what
0:21:35 > 0:21:39they were supposed to be doing, where they were supposed to be.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42Like many of her generation,
0:21:42 > 0:21:45the strict institutionalised experience in the workhouse
0:21:45 > 0:21:48made it difficult for Frances to later form emotional bonds
0:21:48 > 0:21:50with her own children.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54I cut myself off totally and I lived on my own, basically,
0:21:54 > 0:21:56in a room, when I was young.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00I used to go downstairs and get my meals, then I used to go upstairs.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06Basically, I was on my own, most of my childhood.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Although John grew up without siblings,
0:22:09 > 0:22:12he had vague memories of having a half-brother and sister.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17When Phil investigated this, he discovered David and Christine,
0:22:17 > 0:22:20Frances' children from her first marriage, to Albert Ellis,
0:22:20 > 0:22:24although Frances was just as secretive with her other children
0:22:24 > 0:22:26as she was with John,
0:22:26 > 0:22:31and never revealed to Christine or David that she had a sister, Nancy.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34My mother never mentioned Nancy at all.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36I didn't even know I had any aunties.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39I am shocked, I still can't get my head round it.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42It's really knocked me back,
0:22:42 > 0:22:44because I would like to have met her.
0:22:46 > 0:22:51To know I've got another part of the family, it would have been nice.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55It's unbelievable, that somebody can go through their life
0:22:55 > 0:22:59and completely guillotine a relative and have absolutely
0:22:59 > 0:23:03nothing to do with her whatsoever. It's astonishing, really.
0:23:03 > 0:23:09It seems that Christine's relationship with her mother was as difficult as John's.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11When I was quite young my mother and dad divorced.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13I don't know how old I was.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15She left me and my brother, David, with my dad.
0:23:15 > 0:23:19Every now and again we used to go and stop with my mother.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22My dad brought me up until I was 16, and David was 17 or 18,
0:23:22 > 0:23:26and then I just left there and went over to live with my mother.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29She did have a loving personality about her,
0:23:29 > 0:23:34but she was very, very strict. When she used to go out shopping,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37she used to leave me to do the housework.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41If she left my young brother, John, with me, she used to come back
0:23:41 > 0:23:45and ask him if I'd had my radio on. If I did, she used to turn
0:23:45 > 0:23:48the house upside down and make me clean it again.
0:23:51 > 0:23:56I did leave home a couple of times, when I lived with a friend.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59Left for about a week at a time, tQhen went back.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01But she was really, really strict.
0:24:01 > 0:24:06I was really nervous, living with her.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08But while her time in the workhouse
0:24:08 > 0:24:11had a strong influence on her in later life, amazingly,
0:24:11 > 0:24:15Frances never told her children that this was where she had grown up.
0:24:15 > 0:24:20I didn't realise my mother was actually brought up in the workhouse.
0:24:22 > 0:24:27All I remember is the fact that I knew she was orphaned from birth,
0:24:27 > 0:24:32and that she was in domestic service later on in life,
0:24:32 > 0:24:35and that's really all I remember.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38It could be that's why she was so strict,
0:24:38 > 0:24:42because of the life she had when she was younger.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46Coming up, John visits a workhouse
0:24:46 > 0:24:49to help him understand his mother's secret past.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53My mother was tough and I think she had to be, to survive.
0:24:53 > 0:24:55I look at it in a very different light now.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05For every case that is cracked, there are still many thousands which remain a mystery.
0:25:05 > 0:25:12These cases sit on the Treasury's unsolved list, and can remain there for up to 30 years.
0:25:12 > 0:25:18The estates can range wildly in value from £5,000, to many millions,
0:25:18 > 0:25:22with the rightful heirs completely unaware of the windfall they could claim.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29Today, we've got two cases Heir Hunters have so far
0:25:29 > 0:25:31failed to solve. Could you have the answer?
0:25:31 > 0:25:33Could you be in line to inherit?
0:25:35 > 0:25:39Robert Wardle, from Chertsey in Surrey, passed away in May 2006.
0:25:39 > 0:25:44To this day, nobody has come forward to claim his estate.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47Does this name means something to you?
0:25:47 > 0:25:50Can you offer a clue that might solve the case?
0:25:52 > 0:25:57Jean Nanette McKenzie, from Rochester, died in Kent in July 2006,
0:25:57 > 0:26:00leaving no will, and seemingly with no next of kin.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03Could she be a distant relative?
0:26:03 > 0:26:05Might you stand to inherit her estate?
0:26:15 > 0:26:20It's 11.40am, and it's back to the drawing board at Fraser and Fraser.
0:26:20 > 0:26:26The search for heirs to Beatrice May Emms' £80,000 estate is not going to plan.
0:26:27 > 0:26:34Paul is in the Birmingham register office, collecting the death certificate of Beatrice's mother,
0:26:34 > 0:26:37but rather than offer clues, it only seems to confuse matters.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40It's a little bit out on age, but our only a couple of years.
0:26:40 > 0:26:42I thought initially it was wrong,
0:26:42 > 0:26:45especially when I saw it said the widow of Edward Mansell.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48We are looking for Kathleen May Pearce,
0:26:48 > 0:26:51who is married to an Albert James.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57But the things that proves it is the right person is
0:26:57 > 0:27:02our informant is our deceased, Beatrice Emms, of the same address,
0:27:02 > 0:27:05so yeah, it is the right death.
0:27:06 > 0:27:10So, a bit of a question now about Mr Mansell's actual name.
0:27:14 > 0:27:17The team thought Beatrice's father was Albert Mansell,
0:27:17 > 0:27:19but Paul has found an Edward Mansell
0:27:19 > 0:27:22named on Beatrice's mother's death certificate.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25They must be the same man, Beatrice's father,
0:27:25 > 0:27:29but he has used two different forenames over his lifetime, Albert and Edward.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Paul wastes no time in calling through to Dave
0:27:33 > 0:27:35and updating him on the discovery.
0:27:35 > 0:27:40'David Pacifico, I have Paul Matthews for you on 619.'
0:27:40 > 0:27:45- Hello, Paul.- Kathleen May Mansell, widow of Edward Mansell.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48Widow of Edward? Why Edward?
0:27:48 > 0:27:52- It is right, don't panic. - I'm going grey on this case today.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55And the informant is B M Emms.
0:27:55 > 0:27:59This is unbelievable. How on earth did she register her mother's death
0:27:59 > 0:28:01as the widow of Edward Mansell?
0:28:01 > 0:28:02You tell me!
0:28:02 > 0:28:07But the key question is whether Albert and Edward are the same person.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10This is a testing situation, and until they get the answer,
0:28:10 > 0:28:13they cannot complete a family tree on the father's side.
0:28:13 > 0:28:17A lot of hard work, so it's frustrating, not getting anywhere.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21Thing is, if we're struggling and it's hard to work up,
0:28:21 > 0:28:23it's going to be the same for our rival companies.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27Even though we're getting nowhere fast at the moment,
0:28:27 > 0:28:29we're plugging away at it, but our competitors
0:28:29 > 0:28:32will also be having the same problems, hopefully.
0:28:32 > 0:28:35It's not going to beat me. I refuse to let it beat me.
0:28:35 > 0:28:39Despite inconsistent names for Beatrice's father on certificates,
0:28:39 > 0:28:43all other names and dates are consistent, so the team now
0:28:43 > 0:28:47work off the assumption that Bert, Albert and Edward are, in fact,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50the same person. They desperately need a date of birth
0:28:50 > 0:28:53for Beatrice's father, to secure the family tree.
0:28:53 > 0:28:57So far, they've been unable to locate an appropriate date of birth
0:28:57 > 0:29:02for an Albert or Edward Mansell, but finally, Gareth has an explanation.
0:29:02 > 0:29:04Thanks, bye.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Right. That was Gareth,
0:29:07 > 0:29:14telling me he's found a birth entry of an Edward James Mansill,
0:29:14 > 0:29:20M-A-N-S-I-L-L, in March quarter 1896 in Birmingham,
0:29:20 > 0:29:24which could be the father's birth and therefore, Edward.
0:29:24 > 0:29:28So at one time he call himself Bert, another time Edward.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30Now it makes more sense.
0:29:32 > 0:29:33Hello.
0:29:33 > 0:29:37- 'Hello, Paul. We may have resolved the birth of the father.'- Oh, right.
0:29:37 > 0:29:41'I've been given details of an Edward James Mansill,
0:29:41 > 0:29:46'M-A-N-S-I-L-L, this is where the Edward comes in.'
0:29:46 > 0:29:50Oh, right. Yeah, I've got the actual entry,
0:29:50 > 0:29:55he's down as Edward J Mansill.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00After hours of painstaking research,
0:30:00 > 0:30:04the team's confusion over the father's name had hung upon
0:30:04 > 0:30:09a spelling mistake on the surname Mansell, made decades ago.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12I was tearing my hair out two hours ago.
0:30:12 > 0:30:16So much confusion and names changing and all sorts.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19Thanks to some good research work, we've been able to
0:30:19 > 0:30:22hopefully identify the family now.
0:30:22 > 0:30:24With the mystery of Beatrice's father solved,
0:30:24 > 0:30:28Dave and Gareth can confidently start the family tree, again.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32What does it say on 1911, how many children?
0:30:32 > 0:30:36The 1911 census reveals Edward, also known as Albert,
0:30:36 > 0:30:39had a brother, Leonard, and a sister, Doris.
0:30:39 > 0:30:43Now the team need to see if there were any more siblings
0:30:43 > 0:30:47born after 1911. If any of these siblings went on to have children,
0:30:47 > 0:30:49they could be potential heirs.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53I found what could be another aunt of the deceased,
0:30:53 > 0:30:57a Winifred J Mansell. I want to get Paul to check that out.
0:30:57 > 0:31:02Meanwhile, we're working on children of an uncle Leonard Mansell.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05The team discover three siblings for Edward.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09Leonard, Doris and Winifred. Doris died in her early 20s,
0:31:09 > 0:31:12but Leonard married Elsie Wedgbury
0:31:12 > 0:31:15and Winifred married Alfred Greenock.
0:31:15 > 0:31:19Since Leonard and Winifred are now deceased, any subsequent children
0:31:19 > 0:31:23they might have would be in line to inherit part of Beatrice's estate.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26Good detective work has led Gareth to a potential heir
0:31:26 > 0:31:29living in the Midlands.
0:31:29 > 0:31:30Hopefully we've got Audrey now.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33She's going to be first cousin of the deceased,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36and we're going to give her to David, hopefully he'll phone her.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43She's in Solihull. Well, hopefully in Solihull, if it's right.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46Right. Just going back on this.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49'Audrey Dory may still be alive, living in Solihull.'
0:31:49 > 0:31:51Oh, right, hang on a second.
0:31:51 > 0:31:54She's getting on a bit. She was born in '26.
0:31:54 > 0:31:55She's Audrey Dory?
0:31:55 > 0:31:58This is coming straight from the horse's mouth.
0:31:58 > 0:32:00'If that's right, she's a first cousin,'
0:32:00 > 0:32:02hopefully it will be the answer
0:32:02 > 0:32:05to a few questions here. Thanks, Paul. Bye.
0:32:06 > 0:32:10With this revelation, Paul is straight off to pay Audrey a visit.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13The team are hoping she will be able to confirm their findings.
0:32:13 > 0:32:19If so, she would be entitled to inherit a share of Beatrice's £80,000 estate.
0:32:19 > 0:32:25Paul hopes to sign her up immediately, before any rival companies also track her down.
0:32:25 > 0:32:28Tell me what has brought all this to light.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31Because somebody's passed away, they haven't made a will,
0:32:31 > 0:32:35left a sum of money which is either going to go to the Government...
0:32:35 > 0:32:37Or to the family. Yeah. I'm with you.
0:32:37 > 0:32:43Which is why, now, we are trying to find out what you know about
0:32:43 > 0:32:45your dad's brothers and sisters.
0:32:45 > 0:32:49It's not normally this up in the air, whereby we don't know.
0:32:49 > 0:32:54I know my dad's sister, her name was Winifred.
0:32:57 > 0:33:01- There was a Doris who passed away as a young lady.- Yes.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05- We think there was an Edward or an Albert.- There was a Bert.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08I remember Bert, Uncle Bert, I can remember him.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11- Was Bert married? - Yes, he was married.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14Did he have children?
0:33:14 > 0:33:17Oh, dear me. No, I couldn't tell you.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19You're going back such a long time.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21- I know.- It's amazing, isn't it?
0:33:21 > 0:33:23The older you get, the less you catch up there.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25Tell us about it, I can't remember now.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29But Audrey's memory is still strong.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31She had a sister, Joan, and a brother, John.
0:33:31 > 0:33:36Joan married Henry and they had one child, who would be an heir.
0:33:36 > 0:33:37John married Barbara
0:33:37 > 0:33:41and they too had one child, who also stands to inherit.
0:33:41 > 0:33:45Winifred had children also, who could be heirs.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48As well as confirming the team's research on the family,
0:33:48 > 0:33:52she can recall an uncle Stanley. He married Beryl,
0:33:52 > 0:33:56but did he have children, and could there be more heirs to chase?
0:33:56 > 0:34:01Frasers are very keen to sign them up as soon as possible.
0:34:01 > 0:34:06Isn't it amazing, the way you can go so far back and find out?
0:34:06 > 0:34:09There's no hiding place, is there?
0:34:09 > 0:34:11Well, no.
0:34:11 > 0:34:14I hope it all works out OK, cos you might get a few bob out of this.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16Oh, well, that'd be interesting.
0:34:19 > 0:34:24The team have managed to contact Audrey's cousin Margaret, another potential heir.
0:34:24 > 0:34:30As the day is drawing to a close, they have arranged to meet her the next morning.
0:34:30 > 0:34:3316. 14.
0:34:33 > 0:34:38As she's based near Bradford, local travelling heir hunter Dave Mansell
0:34:38 > 0:34:41is able to pay her visit, and potentially sign her up.
0:34:41 > 0:34:45I'm going to just go through your family in order,
0:34:45 > 0:34:49so that we tie you to the deceased. What is your full name?
0:34:49 > 0:34:51Margaret Valerie Griffith.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54Your mum's siblings, your aunts and uncles.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56I want you to tell me about them now.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59There was Bert and Leonard who, I think,
0:34:59 > 0:35:02were in their twenties when my mother was born.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06So my mother was brought up with her nephews and nieces.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09We've got the right one. It was Edward James Mansell,
0:35:09 > 0:35:13otherwise Albert James Mansell, otherwise Bert James Mansell.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16THEY LAUGH
0:35:16 > 0:35:22It's coming out. But we never knew anything about him or his family.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25Well, maybe, that's why if he's changed his name.
0:35:25 > 0:35:26But there was my Uncle Len
0:35:26 > 0:35:29and my Auntie Elsie that we used to visit...
0:35:29 > 0:35:31So no details about him?
0:35:31 > 0:35:36None whatsoever. My mother never talked about him. Which is odd.
0:35:38 > 0:35:39Well, there'll be a reason.
0:35:39 > 0:35:41- Yes.- There always is.- Oh, yes. Yes.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45- What about Doris?- Doris died, I think, when she was a child.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47Well, she was 24.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50Well, there you go, you see.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54Margaret has been able to complete the tree.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56She has confirmed the team's findings
0:35:56 > 0:36:00but also been able to account for Stanley's children
0:36:00 > 0:36:03who will also be heirs to Beatrice's estate.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06- Lovely to have met you. - Thank you for coming.- Pleasure.
0:36:06 > 0:36:07- It's been interesting.- Bye.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10It's been a worthwhile visit for Dave.
0:36:10 > 0:36:15The company will help Margaret submit her claim to part of Beatrice's estate.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20It's something that you don't expect especially when it's
0:36:20 > 0:36:24so close in the family. Although my mother always said
0:36:24 > 0:36:27there was somebody in the cupboard somewhere.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30The research was a proper piece of detective work
0:36:30 > 0:36:33and it's good when that comes together.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36We're the first people to contact all the beneficiaries
0:36:36 > 0:36:39and from there we've got all the agreements in.
0:36:39 > 0:36:42I think there's eight beneficiaries in total
0:36:42 > 0:36:44and they're split between the three stems.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46So I'm pretty pleased with the outcome.
0:36:53 > 0:36:57Earlier, we were looking into the case of Nancy Elizabeth Garner.
0:36:57 > 0:37:00Phil, at Celtic Research, revealed to Nancy's niece and nephews
0:37:00 > 0:37:05that their mother and aunt were brought up in a Welsh workhouse.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08Maybe that was why she was so strict.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11Because of the life she had when she were younger.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21To help him empathise better with his mother's upbringing,
0:37:21 > 0:37:26John has come to the Rochdale Workhouse to meet historian, Peter Higginbotham.
0:37:26 > 0:37:28- Hello, John.- Hello, Peter.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31- It's a grim old place we've found ourselves today.- We certainly have.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35It's the Rochdale Workhouse and I think it's on the way
0:37:35 > 0:37:38to being closed down but it's really a grim building.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42I can't imagine what it would have been like here 100 years ago.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44It's really quite depressing, I think.
0:37:44 > 0:37:46Why were the workhouses here, then?
0:37:46 > 0:37:49- And why were people put into the workhouses?- A very good question.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53The first thing to say is that people weren't put into workhouses.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57It's probably true to say people resorted to the workhouse
0:37:57 > 0:37:58when they had no other option.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01There was no National Health Service.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04The only option you had if you needed medical care
0:38:04 > 0:38:07was the workhouse infirmary. And a particular group of people
0:38:07 > 0:38:11who came to use the workhouse infirmary were pregnant women.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13Poor pregnant women.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19My mother was born in the workhouse and spent...
0:38:19 > 0:38:21What sort of life would she have had?
0:38:21 > 0:38:25If you were born in the workhouse, then I guess we would probably say
0:38:25 > 0:38:29you became institutionalised from quite an early age.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33For children, there was at least three hours of school a day
0:38:33 > 0:38:36that was required by the regulations.
0:38:36 > 0:38:40Most workhouses also gave what was called industrial training.
0:38:40 > 0:38:47Things like agricultural work, shoe-making, carpentry, plumbing.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49My mother went into domestics,
0:38:49 > 0:38:54- scrubbing floors and obviously was...- If you were a girl,
0:38:54 > 0:38:57a teenage girl in the workhouse, that would be the most likely
0:38:57 > 0:38:59- place that you would end up.- Right.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02We've dug up some pictures of the Pontardawe Workhouse.
0:39:02 > 0:39:06As you can see, it's on a rather smaller scale than this place.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Where would my mother have been in this building?
0:39:09 > 0:39:12There would have been a women's half and a men's half.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15I'm not sure which one was which in Pontardawe.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18The way you can always tell is where the laundry was
0:39:18 > 0:39:21so if you pin down the laundry, that was the women's side.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25The women did the laundry work. There would have been a subsection
0:39:25 > 0:39:29for elderly women and a subsection for able-bodied women.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32It's a very institutional sort of style.
0:39:32 > 0:39:38As you can see, these dividing walls cutting up the grounds.
0:39:42 > 0:39:44Real segregation, wasn't it?
0:39:44 > 0:39:48Yes. Workhouses were machines for segregating people.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51That's the main essence of a workhouse design.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53Compartmentalise people.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57Emotionally, how do you think people were affected by being
0:39:57 > 0:40:00in the workhouse because my own feeling is that, I don't know,
0:40:00 > 0:40:04I think my mother was probably emotionally... crippled.
0:40:04 > 0:40:09I don't think, on the whole, there was much affection shown
0:40:09 > 0:40:12for children in the workhouse. Even the quite caring staff.
0:40:12 > 0:40:16It was probably seen as unfair,
0:40:16 > 0:40:21actually, for teachers and for the matron to have favourites.
0:40:21 > 0:40:26If you broke the rules, you would have a spell on bread and water
0:40:26 > 0:40:30or in a cell, a refractory cell, it was called, for 24 hours.
0:40:30 > 0:40:34So you probably want to keep on the straight and narrow on the whole
0:40:34 > 0:40:35unless you were a bit of a rebel.
0:40:35 > 0:40:41Certainly, emotionally, I think people lacked affection which
0:40:41 > 0:40:45I think we'd all say these days was the key thing in making people
0:40:45 > 0:40:48emotionally mature and developed.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51It's interesting, at the very end of her life, she was going blind
0:40:51 > 0:40:55and we tried to get her into a home and she fought tooth and nail
0:40:55 > 0:40:58that she would not be removed and it's just dawned on me,
0:40:58 > 0:41:01there was no way she was going back into an institution.
0:41:01 > 0:41:06- Yes.- She ended up dying in the house.
0:41:11 > 0:41:16It's an awful lot to take in and digest and it just goes to show
0:41:16 > 0:41:21that the backgrounds that our parents have shape us
0:41:21 > 0:41:23as the people that we are.
0:41:23 > 0:41:30And my mother was... was tough.
0:41:30 > 0:41:33And I think she had to be to survive what she survived.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37And I'll look at it in a very different light now.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41I think there was quite a... taint is probably a word
0:41:41 > 0:41:45that is sometimes used about having been in the workhouse.
0:41:45 > 0:41:46You really came from the gutter.
0:41:46 > 0:41:50I think that was the view a lot of people would have had.
0:41:50 > 0:41:53So having been in the workhouse carried a stigma, really,
0:41:53 > 0:41:56that for many people would last for the rest of their lives
0:41:56 > 0:41:59and would not be mentioned to anybody.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04Certainly not family members. And it was really a burden
0:42:04 > 0:42:07for people to carry that for the rest of their lives.
0:42:07 > 0:42:13The emotional barriers felt between Frances and her family still remain today.
0:42:13 > 0:42:17But there is hope that things will finally change.
0:42:18 > 0:42:24I think considering what my mother probably had been through
0:42:24 > 0:42:31is an awful lot to take on-board and will be very painful, I think.
0:42:35 > 0:42:37I'm leaving it open-ended.
0:42:37 > 0:42:41I'm going to reflect on everything and see where that takes me.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45You know, if he wanted to come over here and see me or meet me somewhere,
0:42:45 > 0:42:47I would like to see him again.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49He is my brother.
0:42:55 > 0:43:01If you would like advice about building your family tree or making a will, go to bbc.co.uk.
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