:00:00. > :00:00.Bells told to mark the exact moment. He is often ranked amongst the
:00:00. > :00:12.nation's most revered leaders. Now it is time for the Bottom Line.
:00:13. > :00:16.For many of us, the closest we get to personal creative expression is
:00:17. > :00:21.in the way we choose to decorate our homes. We wanted to be as individual
:00:22. > :00:25.as possible, but we also want to follow the latest fashion. The
:00:26. > :00:31.business of helping us to that is the topic of our discussion today,
:00:32. > :00:37.design and decoration. It is all ended fickle consumers. Each week,
:00:38. > :00:41.influential business leaders gather in London for the BBC Radio 4
:00:42. > :00:43.programme the bottomline. You can see it as well as hear it. `` the
:00:44. > :01:01.Bottom Line. I have three people with the steeped
:01:02. > :01:08.in the well`designed. Kelly Hoppen, founder of Kelly Hoppen Interiors.
:01:09. > :01:12.The president of Graham and Brown, and Lois Jacobs, the global chief
:01:13. > :01:21.executive of which, a design agency. We'll take a few moment is to meet
:01:22. > :01:26.all of you. Kelly, tellers about your company. What is it consist of?
:01:27. > :01:30.The company I started at 16 was the interior design company, which is
:01:31. > :01:36.the mother of the business, where we run anything from 50 to 60 projects
:01:37. > :01:43.at one time. Then we have the publishing side, liberal outlooks
:01:44. > :01:48.every two years. We choose 12 projects from a rather well. We have
:01:49. > :01:53.a school, we have product design because we have products and shops
:01:54. > :01:57.franchise to run the world. It is anything to do with design. Give us
:01:58. > :02:09.the story of how it started. You hinted at 16. At 16, I was offered
:02:10. > :02:14.to do up a kitchen for stepfather's friend. Then I had a friend who was
:02:15. > :02:19.having a relationship with a famous racing driver. At 17 had my own home
:02:20. > :02:26.because my father had been killed in a inherited money. I bought myself a
:02:27. > :02:30.home. That is where my style began. He saw it and said he would like me
:02:31. > :02:37.to do his home. The racing driver that is. It was the first proper job
:02:38. > :02:41.in central London. From that, I got more Grand Prix racing drivers and
:02:42. > :02:44.built the business on that. The passion and love of design was
:02:45. > :02:51.really there from the very early age. The interior design business,
:02:52. > :02:58.and that the super rich. It is hundreds of thousands, your
:02:59. > :03:05.clients. The millions. I have filtered down, so we sell on. We
:03:06. > :03:09.will be a little sell directly to people. I think that you have to
:03:10. > :03:14.build a brand at the high end is to be a water filter down. And it is
:03:15. > :03:18.very successful, because it become the authority of what you do in your
:03:19. > :03:21.brand and what you sell. You can defuse your style and sell it to the
:03:22. > :03:27.masses, which is what I have always wanted to do. Sitting next to you is
:03:28. > :03:37.Andrew Graham, you designed for them. I do. Tellers were typical
:03:38. > :03:43.designed for him would be. I went in and said, this is what I want to do.
:03:44. > :03:47.They have a whole team who sit there are drawing and do things. I say, I
:03:48. > :04:01.do not like that, but I like this, and they created. I will talk to and
:04:02. > :04:07.`` in a moment. They design of? I give them designs and the mood
:04:08. > :04:11.board. E to explain it. I was looking at Chinese screens is an
:04:12. > :04:15.idea for a texture. I would then put a board together of all of this, and
:04:16. > :04:20.the to them, they want to make the moral light is that people can paint
:04:21. > :04:27.a colour onto this, so it was almost like a raised texture. I would say,
:04:28. > :04:33.can you physically do this? So it is a collage of ideas? From then I
:04:34. > :04:38.would sketch and handed over to the team. They then bring it to me and I
:04:39. > :04:46.say, I want this smaller, eager, wider, do not like it, throw it
:04:47. > :04:50.away. He recovers I want `` here are the colours they want. A guided, and
:04:51. > :04:55.I do not know how to physically make a wallpaper. You also designer
:04:56. > :05:01.wallpapers. The advantage to your getting Kelly Hoppen... Design is
:05:02. > :05:08.about collaboration. You learn from each other. For them to be able to
:05:09. > :05:15.work with designers like Kelly is a real experience for our brand and
:05:16. > :05:23.people. To tell you about Graham and Brown. Enough Kelly Hoppen. Graham
:05:24. > :05:30.and Brown is 67 years old, it is two families. We are third generation.
:05:31. > :05:37.It was founded by my grandfather, Harold, and his best friend Henry
:05:38. > :05:41.Brown. We are now a global decoration brand. We sell our
:05:42. > :05:48.products to 75 countries around the world. Our third guest is Lois
:05:49. > :05:53.Jacobs of Fitch, no relation to Abercrombie and Fitch, or to the
:05:54. > :05:58.global ratings agency. It is a design agency. It helps other
:05:59. > :06:05.companies improve design. It is not just interior design. We are about
:06:06. > :06:09.branding and retail design. Were our interior designers come into is
:06:10. > :06:14.designing stalls were different clients. Sue have had it a lot of
:06:15. > :06:20.clients, he had helped them in China. While Kelly's brands defuse,
:06:21. > :06:26.we tend to start that middle mass market and penetrate it. That is
:06:27. > :06:32.what we focus on. We spend a lot of time looking at trends in the market
:06:33. > :06:35.or throughout the world. About 10% of our people spend their time
:06:36. > :06:42.observing what is happening through the world and how people shop. A
:06:43. > :06:49.great job. It is. We have heard some things that will pick up on. We will
:06:50. > :06:53.look at the peculiarities of consumer taste. They want to be
:06:54. > :07:00.different, but they also want to be the same. I wonder how you cope with
:07:01. > :07:07.consumers. You think people want to be different? I think people copy
:07:08. > :07:12.looks and brands in interior design 100%. In a way, that is upsetting to
:07:13. > :07:16.me. I am always trying to get people to be more individual. The amount of
:07:17. > :07:21.times people will say, I want this look, the whole thing. But we do is
:07:22. > :07:27.create these looks, photograph them, to make life easier for people.
:07:28. > :07:32.Reassurance is important when you are dressing yourself all your
:07:33. > :07:39.walls, Jules want to play a role in individualised and that. If you put
:07:40. > :07:43.a look together, think about how you put it together. You can still
:07:44. > :07:48.choose elements of Outlook. That is the personalisation. You have the
:07:49. > :07:52.reassurance that the look goes together. People want that
:07:53. > :07:58.reassurance. We are seeing democratisation of design, it will
:07:59. > :08:02.to the mood boards that you create, individuals now create their own
:08:03. > :08:08.mood boards. They used Instagram and all of these kind of social media
:08:09. > :08:13.tools. I think there is that balance. They want to feel that they
:08:14. > :08:17.have had some influence and that it is their scheme, with the
:08:18. > :08:21.reassurance that the brand gives them. What we are finding is that
:08:22. > :08:30.brands are creating ways to allow people to do that. The model that we
:08:31. > :08:34.created in China is a multistage process. The first thing is that
:08:35. > :08:40.customer draws from lots of sources on the website. They then go to the
:08:41. > :08:45.store and they are given a coach to help them with all the source
:08:46. > :08:51.material that they have drawn on. In China, it is particularly important.
:08:52. > :08:56.What people in China need that? In China, the result a DIY market like
:08:57. > :09:00.there is in the UK. They have got the mercy of lots of independent
:09:01. > :09:06.contractors who might rip them off, might copy substandard products.
:09:07. > :09:14.They go for the complete reassurance of the whole offer. You have some
:09:15. > :09:21.interesting projects in India with Asian paints. Asian paints is the
:09:22. > :09:25.largest paint manufacturer in India and that part of the world. The
:09:26. > :09:31.amazing thing you find in India, which is a country and the people so
:09:32. > :09:36.well known for their love of colour, they are absolutely terrified of
:09:37. > :09:40.using a colour in their homes. It is only relatively recently that this
:09:41. > :09:42.increase in the affluent middle`class has had the luxury of
:09:43. > :09:51.thinking about colour in their homes. Our client was very future
:09:52. > :09:57.minded and took two stalls on the main shopping streets in Mumbai and
:09:58. > :10:00.Delhi, where you can buy anything. You can not buy any painted all,
:10:01. > :10:08.because they sell through dealers. You go in the store and haven't a
:10:09. > :10:12.digital card is eager to the store. You look at different paint
:10:13. > :10:16.techniques, you see them in action, you bring photographs of your home
:10:17. > :10:20.and you can have an augmented reality look at what different paint
:10:21. > :10:23.finishes would look like. They are the team at biggest stores where you
:10:24. > :10:29.cannot buy anything. The deal is adjacent to our happy. I think this
:10:30. > :10:36.is brilliant. Online is so incredible now. The fact that retail
:10:37. > :10:42.on the ground is now going all out to try and get people back into
:10:43. > :10:47.stores, it is this fantastic thing, it is driving. I never thought that
:10:48. > :10:51.would happen. It is such an exciting time to be in retail. These are
:10:52. > :10:55.specific trends, but sometimes they turn against you. Andrew, your
:10:56. > :11:03.business had a bad time in the 1990s. Tell us what went wrong
:11:04. > :11:09.there. The paper became terribly unfashionable. That was in the
:11:10. > :11:15.1990s. What we were doing as an industry, we were by no means the
:11:16. > :11:19.market leading to be that we were, we were trying to interpret paint
:11:20. > :11:26.effects with wallpaper. If you consider that as a concept is crazy.
:11:27. > :11:32.Paint effects, like as lunge painting? It is probably the biggest
:11:33. > :11:38.shift we have made in our company's history. The camera with the phrase
:11:39. > :11:42.that the definition of madness is doing the same thing time and time
:11:43. > :11:46.again, and we liberated our team to start to give out things
:11:47. > :11:50.differently. It was a seachange from the top of the organisation. That
:11:51. > :11:55.brought it into collaboration with interesting designers. The company
:11:56. > :12:02.almost fell. The industry almost failed. It was a great example of
:12:03. > :12:07.hubris. In the 1980s it was one of the most vibrant industries in the
:12:08. > :12:14.UK. Then it almost died. What we have done as an industry, is
:12:15. > :12:18.revitalising to such an extent that wallpaper is a trend right across
:12:19. > :12:26.the globe. Have you prepared for the next time? Wallpaper will go out
:12:27. > :12:32.again. We are constantly paranoid. You have two different things. The
:12:33. > :12:41.important question here is where ideas come from. Andrew, apart from
:12:42. > :12:48.Kelly Hoppen, where it design originate from? That is a difficult
:12:49. > :12:54.question. You have to have an attitude. We encourage our people to
:12:55. > :12:58.travel, we encourage them to collaborate and we do not want them
:12:59. > :13:04.spending time in the design studio. We want them out there visiting
:13:05. > :13:10.places. The skill though, is collecting all that and bring it
:13:11. > :13:16.together `` bringing it all together in a concept. We do that every
:13:17. > :13:22.season. We have a team of people that work on what are the trends
:13:23. > :13:26.that the consumer want. It is not difficult to get the trend, what is
:13:27. > :13:32.difficult is to get the trend at the right time or in the right place. It
:13:33. > :13:38.is quite an interesting one. The thing you said is absolutely right.
:13:39. > :13:43.It is the timing. There are trend leaders who the press will go to to
:13:44. > :13:48.say, in your opinion, where do you think trends will go in the next
:13:49. > :13:53.year? Is that you? I do that for most of the press. I have to get my
:13:54. > :14:01.trend reports of January. We do that as well. Everybody does it. So you
:14:02. > :14:06.are setting the trend is and we are not really a part of it? We're not
:14:07. > :14:11.sitting them, we are reserving them Adam Hansen. There is a chicken and
:14:12. > :14:32.egg here. Is it consumer tastes that is determining the trend? Is a lot
:14:33. > :14:36.of nonsense that? I'm actually very against trends and I always say
:14:37. > :14:45.that. I'm against that because in a way, it's not real. This is where I
:14:46. > :14:49.was going. I'm saying I'm against trends and everyone knows that but I
:14:50. > :14:57.will write them. For example, in the recession, I looked at what we were
:14:58. > :15:03.doing, what were people doing more? They were spending more time at
:15:04. > :15:07.home. What can you do in the home that isn't going to cost an awful
:15:08. > :15:13.lot? How can we nurture that feeling? The economy and what's
:15:14. > :15:17.going on in the world plays a part in my trend reports rather than
:15:18. > :15:24.saying it's fluffy, it's pink, it's white. The warmth and comfort and
:15:25. > :15:27.security in the home that you are talking about, you can see that
:15:28. > :15:32.reflect did in stores and workplaces, where people create
:15:33. > :15:42.environments where people can feel comes the ball. `` comfortable. It's
:15:43. > :15:45.all part of that same trend. We have talked a lot about consumer tastes
:15:46. > :15:50.and design and the process of generating it. But let's not forget,
:15:51. > :15:57.we are talking about a business as well. The role of a brand name in
:15:58. > :16:02.this area must be very important. I am looking at you to some extent,
:16:03. > :16:06.Kelly Hoppen. You are a brand in your own right. There's a company,
:16:07. > :16:13.an organisation, with your name on it. How much of it is you or your
:16:14. > :16:19.name being used? I'm picturing you being in a studio with a lot of
:16:20. > :16:24.other people but not Kelly Hoppen actually doing most of the work? I'm
:16:25. > :16:28.in my studio every day at nine o'clock. Up until one year ago, I
:16:29. > :16:36.designed every project to leave my studio in 38 years. I love it. But
:16:37. > :16:39.you have lots of other people. I have one of the designer who has
:16:40. > :16:43.been training under me for four years. She does a lot of work but
:16:44. > :16:52.nothing goes out without me checking it. What I have underneath me are 40
:16:53. > :16:57.technical people and we do our visuals. For every job, they might
:16:58. > :17:00.be 30. Computerised visuals. Up until one year ago, I would give the
:17:01. > :17:08.position for every visual. I now have a team that can do that. But
:17:09. > :17:14.the top level things that you do... And I meet every client and install
:17:15. > :17:18.every job person in. But the brand is important, isn't it? Intellectual
:17:19. > :17:22.property is also important. This is a business where... How easy is it
:17:23. > :17:29.to protect your intellectual property? Lowers, you have designed
:17:30. > :17:37.stores. You are all copying each other, presumably. Again, it's about
:17:38. > :17:42.inspiration. For Fitch, it's very hard to copy it. You don't have the
:17:43. > :17:44.same space. You can look at the certain finishes that we've used or
:17:45. > :17:48.the design of the customer journey that we have created through the
:17:49. > :17:53.store, but that's much harder to copy than a product that's more
:17:54. > :18:01.specific. Andrew, do your wallpapers get copied? Yes. Not so much in
:18:02. > :18:06.Western Europe or North America. 30 years ago, they did. There is
:18:07. > :18:12.respect for differentiation of design but we do get copied in Asia,
:18:13. > :18:15.unfortunately. You have to take a long`term view. I'm sure in ten
:18:16. > :18:22.years, copying will be less prevalent in China. Culturally, it's
:18:23. > :18:27.still there. But it does reinforce your brand potential because if they
:18:28. > :18:36.are copying you, you still have desirability. Kelly, you have stores
:18:37. > :18:39.in China. Yes. But we are copied all the time but I'm slightly to blame
:18:40. > :18:48.because I have books where I tell people how to do it. Equally, when I
:18:49. > :18:55.was doing a book signing in Beijing, I looked at the text and I thought
:18:56. > :19:02.that it didn't seem right... And I looked at the book and it turned out
:19:03. > :19:05.they all copies. So we wrote a note on Twitter and said if anyone ever
:19:06. > :19:10.brings me a book that is not real, I won't sign it. But furniture,
:19:11. > :19:15.everything is copied. If it happens in this country, however, you have
:19:16. > :19:21.more of a chance of doing some. Companies like us, we pitch for
:19:22. > :19:26.business. And we pitch against local design studios as well. That's an
:19:27. > :19:28.issue. You might not win the pitch but then suddenly you will see a
:19:29. > :19:34.store that looks remarkably like yours. We tried very hard not to
:19:35. > :19:41.pitch creatively but on our track record. But sometimes, you do
:19:42. > :19:45.get... Give away the product. Because there is still this demand
:19:46. > :19:54.for designers, particularly from the UK, in emerging economies. This is a
:19:55. > :20:00.good point. How far are these "Western" concepts and designs
:20:01. > :20:07.export of all to emerging markets? `` able to be exported to emerging
:20:08. > :20:14.markets? Is huge. Half of our work is in Asia. In Hong Kong, go into
:20:15. > :20:19.any one of those stores, they only want British, Italian, French,
:20:20. > :20:25.German, Belgian brand names. They won't buy anything that is Chinese.
:20:26. > :20:31.It has to be made outside of Asia. Made, not just designed? Yes. We
:20:32. > :20:36.were making some of our furniture out of China. We are now making it
:20:37. > :20:42.out of Britain and selling twice as much, exporting it back to China.
:20:43. > :20:46.And they are looking for that made in Britain quality. You manufacture
:20:47. > :20:49.your wallpaper in Lancashire. You don't have to do it there but it's
:20:50. > :20:58.particularly interesting when it's manufactured as well is designed...
:20:59. > :21:01.It's very Artisan. Even though our product is well invested and
:21:02. > :21:05.state`of`the`art, the mixture of colour and the interpretation of
:21:06. > :21:09.designed to production is where the skill is. And we have people in this
:21:10. > :21:15.business who have been doing it for all their lives. There is an Artisan
:21:16. > :21:21.element to it. And that just cannot be copied. And it's just so nice...
:21:22. > :21:26.It's back to Kelly Hoppen 's point that there is a cachet in it being
:21:27. > :21:30.made in China. Where will design go over the next 20 or 30 years? When
:21:31. > :21:37.things become more global or converged around the world? Or, as
:21:38. > :21:41.everybody gets better after... If the European model becomes less
:21:42. > :21:43.prevalent in some ways, if it becomes more localised or
:21:44. > :21:48.diffused... I wonder which way it will go. I think that European
:21:49. > :21:51.designs will always stand out and be different and it's why we have done
:21:52. > :21:55.well as designers in America and China and in the Middle East. We
:21:56. > :21:59.have something that's different and we have lots of heritage. And I
:22:00. > :22:06.think that we will always hold onto that. I'm not certain. I think we
:22:07. > :22:09.are there for a while yet but I'm completely inspired by some of the
:22:10. > :22:18.designs I have seen coming out of the newer market, more so than in
:22:19. > :22:22.the US and things like that. I'm just saying that in Europe, I think
:22:23. > :22:25.that we will always have something that's different. When we see
:22:26. > :22:30.emerging markets with new designers, you think... I think Asia in the
:22:31. > :22:36.last two years has been at the forefront. And there will be another
:22:37. > :22:38.market. Turkey was another. But that's what's great about design.
:22:39. > :22:43.It's constantly evolving and getting better. Somebody younger and better
:22:44. > :22:48.will always come out from the left wing somewhere, keeping you on your
:22:49. > :22:54.toes. Cast your own businesses ahead 20 years. Where do you see them
:22:55. > :22:59.going? Kelly, what about you? I don't know. I will be on a yacht
:23:00. > :23:03.somewhere. I still like doing it and people still want their homes
:23:04. > :23:08.designed and there is always a new product or something new... I like
:23:09. > :23:15.challenges. 20 years? I don't know how old I will be then. I will still
:23:16. > :23:18.be irritating you. I don't think we will be as western centric as we
:23:19. > :23:24.are. In most of our studios, we have people from the West. We will have
:23:25. > :23:29.that sort of change in the next five years, let alone 20. Andrew, your
:23:30. > :23:34.business is interesting because you are third`generation. Still the two
:23:35. > :23:42.families of the founders, Henry and Harold. Fourth`generation? I don't
:23:43. > :23:45.know, to be honest. There are seven directors on our board and four of
:23:46. > :23:49.them are not in the family. We would not have survived all grown if we
:23:50. > :23:54.did not have those external forces. But I think we will be more
:23:55. > :24:01.international. 30% of our sales are outside of the UK and in 20 years
:24:02. > :24:06.time, I would estimate about 80%. Manufacturing in Blackburn?
:24:07. > :24:12.Certainly we will be based in Blackburn, yes. Well, I am afraid we
:24:13. > :24:19.have to do with the blinds on this conversation. My guests were Kelly
:24:20. > :24:23.Hoppen of Kelly Hoppen Interiors, Andrew Brown of Graham and Brown and
:24:24. > :24:33.Lois Jacobs from the design agency, Fitch. The downloads from this
:24:34. > :24:38.programme are available. Details are on our website and you can always
:24:39. > :24:39.listen to it on BBC Radio 4. We also like to get your e`mail messages.
:24:40. > :24:54.Just send us a line. If you have just come in after a
:24:55. > :25:01.night out, you don't need me to tell you that it's quite cold out there.
:25:02. > :25:05.Some fog to watch out for as well. If you are about to head out, that's
:25:06. > :25:06.something to bear in mind. These