0:00:00 > 0:00:00- *
0:00:00 > 0:00:03- It's a Sunday morning in Felinheli.
0:00:04 > 0:00:06- We're going to chapel.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10- I'm Gwion Hallam.
0:00:10 > 0:00:15- In my work, I travel with a film - crew, usually behind the camera.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17- This is heavy, Rhys.
0:00:17 > 0:00:21- As I ask whether Welsh people - still believe in God...
0:00:21 > 0:00:23- ..I'll also question my own faith.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26- The fact is, - I'm not a believer any more.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28- VAN TOOTS HORN
0:00:29 > 0:00:32- They're friendly in Felinheli.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35- As a family, - we've lived here for many years.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38- This is Bethania chapel - in Felinheli.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42- As a young man, I was an evangelist. - I preached on a Sunday.
0:00:42 > 0:00:47- Like so many Welsh people, - I rarely go to chapel nowadays.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50- There are children here.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53- Sunday School meets upstairs.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56- Are you OK? Can I come in?
0:00:57 > 0:00:59- Can someone like me come in?
0:01:03 > 0:01:05- As I walked in to Bethania...
0:01:05 > 0:01:09- ..I realized how much - my circumstances had changed...
0:01:10 > 0:01:12- ..since my first visit.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14- I preached here as a young man.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18- At the time, I preached - in chapels in North Wales.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23- I don't come often now, - although I live in the village.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25- That's sad and quite strange.
0:01:29 > 0:01:34- I'm here to witness - a Christian ceremony...
0:01:34 > 0:01:37- ..that still draws people to chapel.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39- I'm happy to be with you...
0:01:40 > 0:01:43- ..to baptize two children.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46- You're smiling at me, son!
0:01:47 > 0:01:50- The atmosphere - is relaxed and light-hearted.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54- The happy parents vow to raise - their children in the faith.
0:01:54 > 0:01:58- Tell him the Christian story, - about Christ's love...
0:01:59 > 0:02:02- ..the love he gave to us.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06- Are you coming to me?
0:02:15 > 0:02:18- I accept you - to the Christian church.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21- As a sign of that, - I baptize you with water.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28- In the name of Father, and of - the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36- It was a privilege - to be here with the families...
0:02:37 > 0:02:39- ..to celebrate with them...
0:02:39 > 0:02:43- ..and present the children to God - at their baptism.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49- It's difficult to know why - we didn't baptize our four children.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52- Why didn't Eleri and I baptize them?
0:02:55 > 0:02:59- Is it because - my faith was once so strong?
0:02:59 > 0:03:02- From believing - so uncompromisingly...
0:03:02 > 0:03:07- ..do I feel detached - from the culture and tradition?
0:03:08 > 0:03:12- More than anything, - this morning has proved...
0:03:12 > 0:03:17- ..that the Christian traditions - and customs are thriving.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22- It's another question to ask, - does Wales still believe?
0:03:22 > 0:03:26- Are traditions and customs enough?
0:03:28 > 0:03:30- Subtitles
0:03:34 > 0:03:38- It's a Monday morning. - The film crew is picking me up.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40- But there's a problem.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42- Sorry. Come in.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46- I'd forgotten schools - have an In-Practice Training day.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51- Come in out of the rain. Eleri is - in school, but the children are not.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55- It could be interesting. - Are you going to behave, please?
0:03:56 > 0:03:59- Twm has a camera. Two cameras today!
0:04:00 > 0:04:04- I'd planned to see Felinheli - chapels today.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08- That chapel has gone, - so has the one on the cover.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11- There is only one chapel here.
0:04:11 > 0:04:16- Moi and Twm don't want - to be dragged round old chapels.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19- I need a Plan B. Alright, Twm?
0:04:19 > 0:04:21- And stop.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23- Is it any good?
0:04:23 > 0:04:25- Do you want to see?
0:04:26 > 0:04:28- Let's watch it back.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32- Owain, do you want to come - to Hwylfan this afternoon?
0:04:33 > 0:04:34- OK.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36- Moi was planning our day for us.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39- The baptism was still on my mind.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42- I'm justifying to Rhys, - the cameraman...
0:04:43 > 0:04:46- ..why we didn't - baptize the children.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48- As an atheist, it isn't an issue.
0:04:48 > 0:04:49- As an atheist, it isn't an issue.- - No.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53- They go to Sunday School.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55- Eleri agrees.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59- We don't go to chapel, - and I don't believe as I used to...
0:05:00 > 0:05:03- ..so we feel - we can't baptize them now.
0:05:04 > 0:05:09- You might have lost your faith, - but you've held on to your Bibles.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13- Yes. Don't we all?
0:05:13 > 0:05:14- Yes. Don't we all?- - No!
0:05:14 > 0:05:16- You must have a Bible, Rhys!
0:05:16 > 0:05:17- You must have a Bible, Rhys!- - I don't.
0:05:18 > 0:05:19- Maybe.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25- This is Christ Church in Caernarfon.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29- It's had quite a conversion - since it closed.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33- Don't think the children - never attend a chapel or church.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37- You're meeting Owain.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42- Wait, Moi. Remember the rules.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46- Remember the Hwylfan - Ten Commandments?
0:05:47 > 0:05:51- It was packed. The former church - is a saviour to parents like me.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54- Have you taken off your shoes?!
0:05:54 > 0:05:55- I'll be in there soon.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57- I'll be in there soon.- - I'll take them off here.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00- Not every parent acts like a child.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09- They love running round...
0:06:09 > 0:06:13- ..and letting off steam.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17- It's a welcome break for parents.
0:06:17 > 0:06:22- The conversation turned - to children and baptizing.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25- It remains - a subject for discussion...
0:06:25 > 0:06:28- ..as Nia Parry - and Bethan Roberts prove.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33- The word 'baptize' - is a no-go in our house.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38- It's one of those subjects - where I shut down.
0:06:38 > 0:06:43- I don't want to discuss it - until they're about fifteen!
0:06:43 > 0:06:49- We baptized Hedd - when he was about eighteen months.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54- It took place in Aled's parents' - chapel in West Wales.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59- They go to chapel, his mother - was in charge of Sunday School.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01- Southwalians!
0:07:01 > 0:07:02- Southwalians!- - Cultured!
0:07:03 > 0:07:05- We baptized Hedd...
0:07:06 > 0:07:08- ..to appease his grandparents.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11- You're being honest in saying that.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13- It's true. I was baptized.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17- I like the idea of godparents, - somehow.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19- It's an additional support.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23- I'm a godparent - to my cousin's children.
0:07:24 > 0:07:29- If something happened to her, - there's something formal in place.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33- They don't have to be baptized - to have godparents.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37- We don't have godparents - and my daughters were baptized.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41- It was clearly important.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45- It was a natural step.
0:07:46 > 0:07:52- There was no pressure - from our parents.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56- Elfyn and I - just did what felt right.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01- We were brought up to go to Sunday - School, we were both received.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04- We had a chapel wedding.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09- Baptizing - was the natural step for us.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11- Like many parents...
0:08:11 > 0:08:16- ..Bethan and her husband didn't - question baptizing their children.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19- Parents feel it's valuable...
0:08:20 > 0:08:23- ..to protect our traditions - and customs.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30- Protecting the children - comes naturally to me.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33- It's their wellbeing - that's important.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36- Am I being selfish - in not baptizing them?
0:08:36 > 0:08:41- Am I more worried about my own - hang-ups than my children's futures?
0:08:41 > 0:08:44- Am I depriving them - of a Welsh tradition...
0:08:44 > 0:08:48- ..of being a part of a rich culture?
0:08:54 > 0:08:58- The next mother I met had plenty - of reasons not to go to chapel.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02- Oasis. - And for Twm Brain Licker.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06- I knew Beca Brown was an atheist.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10- For some reason, - she has started to attend chapel.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12- While we were in Hwylfan...
0:09:13 > 0:09:15- ..I asked her about it.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17- You haven't baptized the children.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20- You haven't baptized the children.- - It never crossed my mind.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23- We didn't as a family. - I wasn't baptized.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28- My parents were probably baptized. - They are atheists.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30- We weren't chapelgoers.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33- Chapel didn't feature - in your childhood?
0:09:33 > 0:09:34- No.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38- But Tomi, my son...
0:09:38 > 0:09:42- ..has hinted - he'd like to be baptized.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45- That came as a shock.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48- Why does he want to be baptized?
0:09:48 > 0:09:50- He feels left out.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53- He said, "Why wasn't I baptized?"
0:09:53 > 0:09:57- I didn't know what to say.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00- You've started going to chapel.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02- You've started going to chapel.- - We do go, sometimes.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04- Tomi came home and said...
0:10:05 > 0:10:09- "..Everyone goes to Sunday School - but me. I want to go."
0:10:09 > 0:10:14- I said, "OK, if you want to go - to Sunday School, I'll come too.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16- "I can see what's going on."
0:10:16 > 0:10:18- They enjoyed it.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22- They expected it to be - more religious than it was.
0:10:23 > 0:10:28- Sunday School is fun, they - play games. It's Lite-Religion.
0:10:28 > 0:10:32- What's Lite-Religion? - Like Sprite Lite?!
0:10:33 > 0:10:36- They don't push religion - on children.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40- They're so pleased - the children are there...
0:10:40 > 0:10:42- ..they're careful not to overdo it.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47- They don't want to - scare them off with faith!
0:10:47 > 0:10:49- What a cynical thing to say!
0:10:49 > 0:10:50- What a cynical thing to say!- - I know.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55- Being cynical, do Lite-Religion - parents baptize children...
0:10:56 > 0:10:57- ..because it's a tradition?
0:10:57 > 0:10:59- ..because it's a tradition?- - I wouldn't judge that.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05- Once you start to judge people - for what religion means to them...
0:11:06 > 0:11:08- ..you are on shaky ground.
0:11:08 > 0:11:13- Everyone has to take from - religion what they need and want.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17- I'm an atheist, but I go to chapel.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19- I get something out of it.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23- But what do you get? - Perhaps it's hard to define.
0:11:23 > 0:11:24- Yes.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28- It's good to have - an hour in the morning...
0:11:28 > 0:11:31- ..to gather my thoughts.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35- I'm meeting the older generation - from the village.
0:11:35 > 0:11:40- The children and I have got to know - the older generation.
0:11:40 > 0:11:45- Now, we see them in Londis and say, - "Hello, how are you?"
0:11:45 > 0:11:48- I like the atmosphere there.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51- I like certain preachers - and some of the sermons.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55- Sometimes, I leave in a foul mood...
0:11:56 > 0:11:57- VOICE OVER TANNOY
0:11:57 > 0:11:59- There's a sermon here now!
0:12:00 > 0:12:03- Moi Llwyd Hallam, - get down from there!
0:12:03 > 0:12:05- It's nothing to do with us.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09- If they go to chapel, - it can't have been them!
0:12:10 > 0:12:12- Perhaps Beca is right.
0:12:12 > 0:12:17- Who am I to question her decision - as an atheist, to go to chapel?
0:12:18 > 0:12:21- But Welsh chapels and churches - are closing.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24- It's fair to ask...
0:12:25 > 0:12:29- ..is going for social reasons - or in the name of tradition...
0:12:29 > 0:12:31- ..enough to stop that?
0:12:33 > 0:12:33- .
0:12:37 > 0:12:37- Subtitles
0:12:37 > 0:12:39- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:12:41 > 0:12:46- I'm on the road again, looking - for people who still believe in God.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49- Where are we going?
0:12:49 > 0:12:54- To South Wales where Christians - live! There are some up here too.
0:12:54 > 0:12:59- We're going to Swansea to meet - Rev Derek Rees, a Baptist minister.
0:12:59 > 0:13:05- This afternoon, after school, - there's a children's club in chapel.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08- Is that why you brought your guitar?
0:13:08 > 0:13:12- Yes! Is the guitar in the back?
0:13:12 > 0:13:14- It's Sion's guitar. Thanks, Sion.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19- If it's anything like the - children's club in Llansannan...
0:13:19 > 0:13:23- ..when I was - a Presbyterian youth worker...
0:13:23 > 0:13:26- ..I'll have to entertain - the children.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30- They probably like singing.
0:13:30 > 0:13:35- Do you remember the old classics, - like Kum Ba Yah?
0:13:36 > 0:13:39- My God Is So Big. - Three chords and the truth.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43- Three chords and the truth!
0:13:44 > 0:13:48- # My God is so big, - so strong, so mighty
0:13:49 > 0:13:51- # There's nothing - that He cannot do #
0:13:51 > 0:13:53- What were the actions?
0:13:53 > 0:13:56- # My God is so big, - so strong, so mighty #
0:13:57 > 0:14:02- After leaving college, my first job - was as a Christian youth worker.
0:14:03 > 0:14:08- In Llansannan, Bro Aled, - I ran weekly children's clubs...
0:14:08 > 0:14:10- ..to spread the word.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13- Mrs Lewis isn't here this week.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17- We won't be singing.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21- We're going to learn - a new song with Gwion.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26- He isn't playing the piano.
0:14:26 > 0:14:31- I can't play the guitar, - but I'll give it a go.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36- Before we sing, let's pray.
0:14:37 > 0:14:42- One, two, three.
0:14:45 > 0:14:50- Oh, Lord. We give thanks for - being in the club with our friends.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53- Thanks to everyone - who is helping us.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57- We're having fun as we learn.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01- Let us enjoy learning a new song.
0:15:04 > 0:15:05- Amen.
0:15:05 > 0:15:06- Amen.- - Amen!
0:15:06 > 0:15:09- Everyone stay where you are.
0:15:10 > 0:15:15- I'm a little bit rusty.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18- I haven't done this in years.
0:15:18 > 0:15:19- What do you normally sing?
0:15:19 > 0:15:22- What do you normally sing?- - Hei Mistar Urdd.
0:15:24 > 0:15:30- # In your red, white and green, - we always have fun in your company
0:15:30 > 0:15:35- # Hey, Mr Urdd, - let's go out for a walk
0:15:35 > 0:15:40- # Let's sing a song - for the children of Wales
0:15:41 > 0:15:45- # I saw you for the first time - in the camp by the sea #
0:15:47 > 0:15:50- That was good!
0:15:50 > 0:15:53- What's your name?
0:15:53 > 0:15:54- Charlie.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58- Charlie.- - Only Charlie knows the verse!
0:15:58 > 0:16:00- Right, My God Is So Big.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05- # My God is so big, - so strong, so mighty
0:16:05 > 0:16:09- # There's nothing - that He cannot do
0:16:09 > 0:16:13- # My God is so big, - so strong, so mighty
0:16:14 > 0:16:17- # There's nothing - that He cannot do #
0:16:18 > 0:16:22- Since Derek Rees started - this work here five years ago...
0:16:22 > 0:16:26- ..many youngsters - have become Christians.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28- Some help him with the club.
0:16:29 > 0:16:30- # So strong, so mighty
0:16:31 > 0:16:34- # There's nothing - that He cannot do #
0:16:35 > 0:16:37- Thanks.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40- It takes me back.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45- I feel a bit guilty, - singing as I did so many years ago.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49- Children are lovely. - They forgive anything.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52- What about you?
0:16:53 > 0:16:55- Elephant.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58- After the singing, more fun.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02- My eagle impersonation skills - were on trial.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05- A bird, OK.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07- A bird, OK.- - What bird, though?
0:17:07 > 0:17:08- Eagle!
0:17:08 > 0:17:09- Eagle!- - Yes!
0:17:10 > 0:17:12- OK, Chloe?
0:17:13 > 0:17:17- Then we turned - to something more serious.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23- They prayed for the world's poor...
0:17:23 > 0:17:26- ..and gave thanks - for the things they enjoyed.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33- While they prayed, I searched - for the true purpose of the club.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38- There's a baptismal pool - under here somewhere.
0:17:39 > 0:17:45- Tomos and Gareth, two of the young - people who are helping tonight...
0:17:45 > 0:17:47- ..were baptized here.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50- I want to know more about it.
0:17:50 > 0:17:56- I pretended to be an eagle in there. - I sang with the children.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00- I don't feel uncomfortable - about that.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04- On the one hand, it's so innocent.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08- But there's something - deep and profound...
0:18:08 > 0:18:11- ..happening to these young people.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15- That's part of my experience - in the past.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21- I was young - when I became a Christian.
0:18:22 > 0:18:26- I was baptized when I was eighteen.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29- I had a baptism by immersion.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35- Sorry, boys. What lovely children.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41- I didn't realize - you had a baptism by immersion.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44- Yes, like the young people there.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49- There was no baptismal pool in - our chapel. We weren't Baptists.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53- We used a milk tank.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56- It went round the chapels...
0:18:56 > 0:19:00- ..for young people like me - who wanted to be baptized.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05- I don't remember much about it. - I had friends and family there.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09- It was a celebration - of this new life.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11- We were submerged and resurfaced...
0:19:12 > 0:19:15- ..symbolizing - the old person going down...
0:19:15 > 0:19:17- ..and being reborn in Christ.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20- A new life, - a religious conversion.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23- That's why - I can't baptize the children.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28- Having declared my faith publicly...
0:19:28 > 0:19:32- ..I can't baptize - in the name of tradition alone.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35- That would be hypocrisy.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53- She knows we're coming.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00- In Cardiff, there's a special event - in the orthodox synagogue.
0:20:00 > 0:20:05- The Chief Rabbi of Britain is - travelling from London to be there.
0:20:05 > 0:20:11- I've arranged to call on - a Jewish lady who lives in the city.
0:20:11 > 0:20:16- Tracy Israel has agreed to discuss - the importance of Judaism to her.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23- Hello, how are you? Tracy? - It's Gwion.
0:20:25 > 0:20:26- How are you?
0:20:27 > 0:20:28- We're on our way.
0:20:29 > 0:20:34- Sorry we're a little late. Will we - be there in twenty minutes, Rhys?
0:20:34 > 0:20:36- Yes.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41- We haven't eaten, but we'll be fine.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44- Really.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47- We'll see you shortly.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52- Bye. Thanks. Looking forward - to meeting you. Ta-ra.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00- The bell works.
0:21:04 > 0:21:04- Tracy.
0:21:04 > 0:21:06- Tracy.- - Hello, Gwion. Welcome.
0:21:07 > 0:21:08- Sorry we're late.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10- Sorry we're late.- - Don't worry. Come in.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16- Let's go through to the kitchen. - You said you were hungry.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19- Food would be lovely.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22- I have toasties on the go.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25- It's an obvious question...
0:21:26 > 0:21:28- ..but as a Jewish family...
0:21:28 > 0:21:31- ..there are things you don't eat.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34- Yes. This isn't a kosher house.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37- What I mean by that is...
0:21:37 > 0:21:43- ..we don't have separate kitchens - for meat and milk.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48- We don't have two ovens - and two sinks.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52- We don't eat pork.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55- There's never pork in the house...
0:21:56 > 0:22:00- ..not only in the house, - but when we eat out, too.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02- We never eat pork.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08- There are certain fish - that are not kosher.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11- Swordfish isn't kosher.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15- We don't eat much swordfish - in Felinheli, either!
0:22:15 > 0:22:20- You were brought up going to chapel - in Pontyates.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23- Congregationalists in Noddfa, - Pontyates.
0:22:24 > 0:22:24- I went to Sunday School.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27- I went to Sunday School.- - It was a similar childhood to mine.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29- We were Methodists.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34- The denominations - weren't important to us then.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38- When and why - did you convert to Judaism?
0:22:38 > 0:22:40- To be honest...
0:22:40 > 0:22:45- ..I didn't have - much experience of Judaism or Jews.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48- When I lived in London...
0:22:49 > 0:22:53- ..I worked there - for thirteen years...
0:22:54 > 0:22:56- ..I met Gary Israel.
0:22:57 > 0:23:02- I remember thinking, - that's an odd name.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06- I realized he was a Jew.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10- I have to say...
0:23:10 > 0:23:12- ..at that time...
0:23:13 > 0:23:17- ..religion - wasn't very important to Gary.
0:23:17 > 0:23:22- When we decided to marry...
0:23:23 > 0:23:31- ..I began to think about children.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34- I wanted to give something - to that child.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37- That's what Jack has had.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41- He has had the experience...
0:23:41 > 0:23:45- ..of being raised - in a Jewish family.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49- Gary was shocked - when I expressed an interest...
0:23:50 > 0:23:54- ..in going to the synagogue - to see what it was like.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56- I have to be honest...
0:23:56 > 0:24:00- ..I felt at home - from the moment I entered.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03- What's the importance - of your faith to you?
0:24:03 > 0:24:07- A subject this series - hopes to explore...
0:24:07 > 0:24:11- ..is the relationship - between culture and faith.
0:24:11 > 0:24:17- Do the traditions, food and customs - sustain your faith?
0:24:18 > 0:24:23- That provides a framework. - I like to work within a framework.
0:24:23 > 0:24:28- I feel safe, - knowing there are dos and don'ts.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30- I like to go to the synagogue...
0:24:31 > 0:24:35- ..going through the prayer - and knowing what comes next...
0:24:35 > 0:24:39- ..what parts we sing, - what parts we recite...
0:24:39 > 0:24:42- ..in Hebrew or English.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45- I like that feeling.
0:24:45 > 0:24:51- I don't believe in the man - sitting on a cloud, to be honest.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54- Do you believe in God?
0:24:54 > 0:24:59- Yes. I believe in God. I can't put - my finger on what I believe God is.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03- God is there.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07- Am I being too black and white?
0:25:07 > 0:25:11- When I was a young man...
0:25:11 > 0:25:17- ..the word, the truth was absolute.
0:25:20 > 0:25:25- Are you looking - for some sort of revelation?
0:25:25 > 0:25:27- Do you want proof?
0:25:30 > 0:25:33- I'm not looking for proof.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36- I think that's what faith is.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38- I'll put these in the toastie.
0:25:38 > 0:25:43- It's a miracle you've done - that while we've been talking!
0:25:43 > 0:25:45- It was my job to make the tea!
0:25:46 > 0:25:48- Come on, Gwion!
0:25:50 > 0:25:53- It's obvious Tracy - is a person of faith.
0:25:53 > 0:25:58- The religious traditions, - the extras I'm critical of...
0:25:58 > 0:26:01- ..don't weaken her faith.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04- Rather, they sustain her.
0:26:05 > 0:26:05- .
0:26:10 > 0:26:10- Subtitles
0:26:10 > 0:26:12- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:26:16 > 0:26:20- I'm going to the induction service - of the new Rabbi in Cardiff.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23- I've called to see Tracy Israel.
0:26:23 > 0:26:28- She wanted to show me - her son's Bar Mitzvah box.
0:26:28 > 0:26:33- It's a record of the ceremony when - he was accepted into the faith...
0:26:33 > 0:26:35- ..at the age of thirteen.
0:26:35 > 0:26:39- This is very traditional.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42- We create a box as a keepsake.
0:26:43 > 0:26:47- Let me show you what's inside.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53- Of course, there are photographs.
0:26:53 > 0:26:58- This is the evening party - in the Museum.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01- The Museum in Cardiff?
0:27:01 > 0:27:02- The Museum in Cardiff?- - Yes.
0:27:03 > 0:27:07- Was the purple cap specially - for the Bar Mitzvah?
0:27:07 > 0:27:11- No, the theme was Camelot.
0:27:11 > 0:27:14- The parties tend to have a theme.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20- Jack enjoys History.
0:27:22 > 0:27:26- He wanted an Arthurian theme.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28- We chose this colour.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31- This is the kippah.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36- It was handed - to every man and boy...
0:27:36 > 0:27:39- ..who came to the party at night.
0:27:40 > 0:27:44- It says, "To celebrate - the Bar Mitzvah of Jack Rhys."
0:27:44 > 0:27:49- Kippahs come in every colour...
0:27:50 > 0:27:54- ..and all sorts of patterns.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59- I'll show you one I have.
0:28:01 > 0:28:05- We're in Cardiff.
0:28:06 > 0:28:10- This one has - the CCFC bluebirds emblem.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13- I was born in Swansea.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15- My family are Swansea fans.
0:28:15 > 0:28:20- This subject is more complex - than Judaism and Christianity!
0:28:20 > 0:28:25- If you go tonight - to the orthodox synagogue...
0:28:25 > 0:28:30- ..you have to wear a kippah.
0:28:30 > 0:28:32- The three of us?
0:28:33 > 0:28:38- Yes. You're in God's house.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40- It's traditional.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45- What bothers me is, - if I have to wear one...
0:28:45 > 0:28:48- ..what will it get attached to?
0:28:48 > 0:28:50- Have a go!
0:28:50 > 0:28:53- The newer ones are more stiff.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55- It just sits on my head?
0:28:55 > 0:29:00- I don't know whether you've noticed, - but I can't tie it to anything.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02- Try it on.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06- Rest it on the top of your head.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11- It stays on, - even if you're bald like me?
0:29:12 > 0:29:17- You can get a Velcro strip...
0:29:18 > 0:29:21- ..that goes inside the kippah...
0:29:21 > 0:29:24- ..to keep the kippah in place.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27- I'll put this back.
0:29:27 > 0:29:31- We'll be given different ones - on our way in tonight.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35- That's how superficial I can be!
0:29:36 > 0:29:38- I worry about the externals.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47- Tonight in the synagogue...
0:29:48 > 0:29:52- ..I hope to see how healthy Judaism - is in Wales.
0:29:52 > 0:29:56- People like Tracy - clearly follow the faith.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00- But what about the wider community?
0:30:01 > 0:30:03- Compared to chapels...
0:30:03 > 0:30:07- ..how are our country's synagogues - faring?
0:30:15 > 0:30:16- Good evening.
0:30:16 > 0:30:17- Good evening to you.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19- Good evening to you.- - Thanks for the welcome.
0:30:20 > 0:30:25- It was obvious - that it was a very special occasion.
0:30:37 > 0:30:39- They have come from far and wide...
0:30:40 > 0:30:44- ..to witness the induction of - the orthodox synagogue's new rabbi.
0:30:49 > 0:30:53- Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis - has come from London.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02- This is the place to be...
0:31:03 > 0:31:07- ..to experience - Jewish customs and traditions.
0:31:07 > 0:31:10- PRAYER
0:31:11 > 0:31:16- We stood to pray and turned to face - Israel and Jerusalem.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19- Some wore the tallit...
0:31:19 > 0:31:24- ..the prayer shawl that reminds - them of God's instructions.
0:31:35 > 0:31:36- The curtains opened.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40- Torah scrolls - were collected from the ark.
0:31:45 > 0:31:50- The scrolls are a powerful symbol - of the Torah's importance.
0:31:50 > 0:31:54- This is the word of God, - the foundation of the Jewish faith.
0:31:54 > 0:31:56- ARAMAIC READING
0:31:59 > 0:32:02- Rabbi Rose stepped forward - to be appointed.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11- He read a prayer in Aramaic.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16- The rest of the service and songs - was in Hebrew.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22- HEBREW HYMN
0:33:21 > 0:33:24- That was fascinating...
0:33:26 > 0:33:29- ..the singing - and emphasis on community.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33- They all know one another.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37- The women wore hats.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42- It's like going back 40 years - to a packed Welsh chapel.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45- But it's totally different, too.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48- Like in chapel...
0:33:48 > 0:33:52- ..no important gathering - is complete without a cuppa.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58- That's where I met Zowie Tudur.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02- She's a Welsh Jewess - who was brought up in the synagogue.
0:34:04 > 0:34:06- I didn't expect such a big event.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09- This doesn't happen every Sabbath.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12- This is a special event - for the Cardiff community.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15- We have a new, young Rabbi, - who's very active...
0:34:15 > 0:34:18- ..who wants more participants...
0:34:18 > 0:34:21- ..and encouraging members - to come regularly.
0:34:21 > 0:34:25- For the Chief Rabbi to be here - for his induction is great.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27- On a regular basis...
0:34:27 > 0:34:32- ..the community is, - unfortunately, a dying community.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35- It's not as it was, - 20 or 30 years ago.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39- Why is that? We're on - a journey with this programme.
0:34:39 > 0:34:44- We started with chapels, - coming from that background myself.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48- That's the same story. - There are exceptions, possibly.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51- For Cardiff, I don't believe - it's a religious issue.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55- The Jewish community - isn't here any more.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58- They've migrated out - to the bigger communities...
0:34:58 > 0:35:01- ..London, Manchester and Leeds.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05- For my generation, - there were opportunities outside.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08- They wanted - Jewish Sunday School and schools...
0:35:08 > 0:35:12- ..kosher butchers - and the Jewish way of life...
0:35:12 > 0:35:16- ..which unfortunately, - as each family left Cardiff...
0:35:16 > 0:35:18- ..so that community decreased.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21- That's the interesting question.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24- The Jewish way of life, - the Welsh way of life...
0:35:24 > 0:35:27- ..is it about culture, - or is it about faith?
0:35:28 > 0:35:32- From my experience, - it's very much a blend of the two.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36- The religion is very important - to me, but the culture is too.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39- The reality is, - I'm traditionally orthodox...
0:35:40 > 0:35:42- ..as opposed to practising orthodox.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45- I don't know - if you should put that on camera!
0:35:46 > 0:35:49- It's much more - about upholding the traditions...
0:35:49 > 0:35:53- ..my family and the heritage, - and honouring the legacy...
0:35:53 > 0:35:58- ..and what I can do with my - children is pass the traditions on.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01- They then have the choice.
0:36:01 > 0:36:05- That's the hope - of many Welsh chapelgoers, too.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08- Upholding traditions - for the children...
0:36:08 > 0:36:12- ..in the hope they'll do the same.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15- It doesn't seem to be working here, - either.
0:36:15 > 0:36:21- The synagogue members are getting - older and fewer, like Welsh chapels.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27- It's late. - Sorry you had to wait for me.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30- The people were so welcoming.
0:36:30 > 0:36:35- I feel almost ashamed that I have - never been in a synagogue before.
0:36:35 > 0:36:40- That says a lot about the sort - of Christianity I once believed in.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45- I don't want to be - judgmental about my past.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49- I'm sure there are Jews here - who haven't been in a chapel.
0:36:49 > 0:36:54- There's something odd that religions - can be so alike, so warm...
0:36:54 > 0:36:59- ..and almost belonging to the same - culture, but very different, too.
0:36:59 > 0:37:02- I'm not suggesting they're the same.
0:37:02 > 0:37:06- It's odd that I have to be 41 - before coming to a synagogue.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10- I heard a lot of Welsh there.
0:37:11 > 0:37:16- This is something I should have - done a long time ago.
0:37:18 > 0:37:23- It was an honour to be there - on such a special day.
0:37:24 > 0:37:24- .
0:37:28 > 0:37:28- Subtitles
0:37:28 > 0:37:30- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:37:32 > 0:37:36- It's Sunday. We're on the way - to the Gomer crew's service.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41- It's Rev Derek Rees's - small, enthusiastic congregation.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45- We're still discussing - the synagogue. You enjoyed it, Rhys.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48- You came out in the kippah.
0:37:48 > 0:37:50- I wanted to take it home.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54- I did enjoy it. - I thought it was great.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58- It was familiar, similar to chapel.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02- It faces a similar fate to chapels.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07- The congregations are dwindling.
0:38:07 > 0:38:11- It would have been much emptier - on a typical Sabbath.
0:38:11 > 0:38:16- We saw the culture, - ceremony and religious externals.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18- It's usually quite empty.
0:38:18 > 0:38:23- It will be very different today - with Derek Rees back in Swansea.
0:38:23 > 0:38:29- This is their Sunday service. - They don't even have a chapel now.
0:38:30 > 0:38:31- No frills.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34- No frills religion, yes.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40- It's years since I've been - to Ty Tawe.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43- I couldn't even find it!
0:38:43 > 0:38:46- Ty Tawe is a centre - for Welsh speakers.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51- On Sunday, it's the meeting point - of the Gomer crowd.
0:38:51 > 0:38:56- How are you, Derek? - Thanks for the welcome.
0:38:56 > 0:39:00- Derek Rees - came to Swansea five years ago.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03- He was the Baptist minister - of two chapels...
0:39:03 > 0:39:09- ..Waunarlwydd, where the children's - club takes place and Gomer chapel.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12- Gomer chapel - was sold a fortnight ago.
0:39:13 > 0:39:16- They moved round the corner - to Ty Tawe.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18- How many of you are there?
0:39:18 > 0:39:20- How many of you are there?- - This is it.
0:39:21 > 0:39:21- This is the church.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25- This is the church.- - There are a couple who are not here.
0:39:25 > 0:39:29- You started five years ago - in Gomer chapel.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33- Yes, two minutes away. - It was just me on the first Sunday.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35- Preaching to yourself?!
0:39:36 > 0:39:39- No, I didn't preach to myself!
0:39:40 > 0:39:42- How many came on the second Sunday?
0:39:42 > 0:39:44- How many came on the second Sunday?- - Three.
0:39:45 > 0:39:47- That was an improvement.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50- Then slowly, the numbers increased.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54- Most remember their first visit.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58- Some people have come and gone.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00- We're 30 to 40 by now...
0:40:00 > 0:40:04- ..including everyone - who has been involved with Gomer.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07- Gomer was a traditional chapel.
0:40:07 > 0:40:11- There were pews, the deacons' seat - and the pulpit.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15- We took out the pulpit and deacons' - seat. It's just a stage now.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18- That's gone now.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20- We sit round a table.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22- Was it too big?
0:40:22 > 0:40:25- It was an unsuitable building, - really.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28- It was too big - for a small gathering.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33- The same can be said - of many buildings in Wales.
0:40:34 > 0:40:39- It was time to start. We reached - for a chair and sat in a circle.
0:40:39 > 0:40:43- No pulpit, no organ. - There won't be any singing.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48- Good afternoon. - I hope you're alright.
0:40:48 > 0:40:53- I think Tomos - will begin with a psalm.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56- I wanted to see the chapel itself.
0:40:57 > 0:41:00- I left the service - and headed towards Gomer.
0:41:01 > 0:41:04- I'd expected a more - traditional chapel.
0:41:04 > 0:41:08- The plaque explains - it's a fairly new chapel.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10- In 1941, like most of Swansea...
0:41:11 > 0:41:13- ..the old chapel was destroyed.
0:41:13 > 0:41:17- Chapel stones - were used in the foundations.
0:41:17 > 0:41:21- It's quite ironic, considering - the congregation has left.
0:41:22 > 0:41:26- The original building - was important to the Baptists.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28- The stones, the history.
0:41:29 > 0:41:34- But to Derek, it's people, - not stones, that are important.
0:41:34 > 0:41:38- It's the experience - as opposed to the culture.
0:41:40 > 0:41:45- There are people who have been - attending chapel for 80 years.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49- People get overly attached - to their buildings.
0:41:50 > 0:41:55- These days, entering a chapel - can be quite intimidating...
0:41:55 > 0:41:58- ..especially - if you're not used to it.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02- The tradition can help, sometimes.
0:42:02 > 0:42:06- Most of the time, - it's just in the way.
0:42:07 > 0:42:09- We create traditions.
0:42:09 > 0:42:12- We've been here a fortnight.
0:42:12 > 0:42:17- As we meet here on a regular basis, - we'll create new traditions.
0:42:17 > 0:42:21- I've sat in the same seat - for a fortnight!
0:42:21 > 0:42:23- Slippery slope!
0:42:23 > 0:42:27- I have to sit - in a different seat next week.
0:42:27 > 0:42:29- When I first went to Gomer...
0:42:29 > 0:42:33- ..I felt uncomfortable - going to chapel.
0:42:33 > 0:42:37- Mam and Dad said, "You have - to go once, and we'll be happy."
0:42:37 > 0:42:40- I didn't have to go every week.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43- They wanted you to go - because they believed.
0:42:43 > 0:42:48- My grandfather encouraged my parents - to talk to me.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52- I hated Christianity. - I came as an unbeliever.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55- I didn't want to go to Gomer.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58- I finally agreed to go one Sunday.
0:42:59 > 0:43:04- I was nervous when I met Derek. - I didn't know anything about him.
0:43:07 > 0:43:11- I remember feeling at home in Gomer.
0:43:13 > 0:43:17- Then Derek said, "Come to - a study meeting. We'll have pizza."
0:43:17 > 0:43:22- I was a first year student. - I thought I'd go for the pizza!
0:43:22 > 0:43:24- It's more than pizza.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29- They met me halfway, - but they didn't compromise, either.
0:43:29 > 0:43:30- That's what counts.
0:43:31 > 0:43:35- What about the people who say - they will never be sure?
0:43:36 > 0:43:38- Is there a chapel for them?
0:43:39 > 0:43:41- Can chapels stay open for...
0:43:41 > 0:43:43- Can chapels stay open for...- - Cultural reasons?
0:43:43 > 0:43:45- Yes.
0:43:45 > 0:43:50- If people are only attending - chapel for cultural reasons...
0:43:52 > 0:43:55- ..they will stop coming altogether.
0:43:56 > 0:44:01- They must feel they're coming - to meet fellow Christians...
0:44:02 > 0:44:04- ..who believe in the same things.
0:44:05 > 0:44:07- We're all different...
0:44:08 > 0:44:11- ..but we have a shared belief.
0:44:12 > 0:44:14- We are all rooted in Jesus Christ.
0:44:15 > 0:44:17- Chapel isn't a club.
0:44:17 > 0:44:22- There are chapels that are - just about surviving on culture...
0:44:22 > 0:44:25- ..and tradition.
0:44:25 > 0:44:29- Welsh speakers - don't turn to chapels for culture.
0:44:30 > 0:44:34- That can't be the answer - for keeping an institution going.
0:44:34 > 0:44:38- There are not many people over 65, - or rather, under 65...
0:44:38 > 0:44:42- ..there are plenty - of over 65s in chapels!
0:44:42 > 0:44:47- It's not the tradition or - the culture that will keep it going.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50- It will be the word of God.
0:44:51 > 0:44:56- Before we left, Derek and the boys - wanted to show me a video.
0:44:56 > 0:44:59- Gareth and Tomos - were baptized recently...
0:44:59 > 0:45:01- ..when they became Christians.
0:45:02 > 0:45:04- It's Gareth's baptism - on the video...
0:45:05 > 0:45:10- ..in the baptismal pool I looked for - in the children's club.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13- You baptized Tomos and Gareth.
0:45:13 > 0:45:15- Yes. We saw Gareth.
0:45:16 > 0:45:18- Rhodri was in the water too.
0:45:18 > 0:45:21- It must have been - an emotional experience.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23- It was quite special.
0:45:24 > 0:45:29- After the baptism, my father said - a prayer for me. It was special.
0:45:31 > 0:45:35- We are reborn. My Granddad - prayed for me when I was baptized.
0:45:36 > 0:45:39- He said, - "I was there when Tomos was born.
0:45:39 > 0:45:43- "I'm glad to see him - being born again."
0:45:43 > 0:45:47- It's a symbol of the change, - of leaving the old person behind.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50- Yes, immersed in water.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53- Resurrection in Christ.
0:45:59 > 0:46:00- Hallelujah.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04- Y Felinheli and the Menai.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08- It's hard to argue - with experience...
0:46:08 > 0:46:12- ..to disagree when someone - says their life has changed forever.
0:46:13 > 0:46:17- I thought - I'd had the same experience.
0:46:17 > 0:46:20- The conversion - changed me completely.
0:46:21 > 0:46:27- I can't return to chapel - for cultural reasons alone.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30- More than anything...
0:46:30 > 0:46:34- ..what I've learnt is - that culture isn't enough.
0:46:35 > 0:46:39- It won't keep the chapels open, - and the chapel isn't a club.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43- I agree.
0:46:43 > 0:46:48- As an atheist, I think it's a shame - the chapels are closing.
0:46:49 > 0:46:53- What will keep them open - are the people who truly believe.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59- I don't believe as I once did...
0:46:59 > 0:47:02- ..nor in the way Derek Rees - and the crew believe.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05- I still think...
0:47:05 > 0:47:10- ..it's the people who really believe - that will keep the chapels going.
0:47:10 > 0:47:15- That's the type of Christianity - that will last.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20- It'll last longer - than it did for you.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25- Yes. Thanks.
0:47:28 > 0:47:32- The hardest question for me is, - why didn't it last?
0:47:33 > 0:47:37- I became a new person, - and was reborn in Christ.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39- What happened to that bloke?
0:47:40 > 0:47:42- Why did I lose my faith?
0:48:03 > 0:48:05- S4C Subtitles by Gwead
0:48:05 > 0:48:05- .