Nelson Mandela: Lying in State

:00:34. > :00:58.Good morning. From Pretoria, the capital of South Africa. This is the

:00:59. > :01:02.centre of this great city, the head of Government, parliament meets down

:01:03. > :01:08.in Cape Town, but the place we are focussing on today are the majestic

:01:09. > :01:12.Union Buildings, which house the presidency and the executive branch

:01:13. > :01:16.of Government, built on the highest hill in the city, for the union of

:01:17. > :01:20.South Africa back in 1910. It is here that Nelson Mandela will lie in

:01:21. > :01:24.state for three days for the public to pay their respects. His body will

:01:25. > :01:29.be brought each day from the military hospital in Pretoria,

:01:30. > :01:33.through the streets, up through the hills to this amphitheatre, where

:01:34. > :01:37.nearly 20 years ago he took that oath as the first President of South

:01:38. > :01:44.Africa to be elected by universal vote. The election that marked the

:01:45. > :01:48.end of apartheid. The procedure today is very formal, unlike

:01:49. > :01:53.yesterday, we saw yesterday the great scenes in Johannesburg with

:01:54. > :01:58.all the heads of state coming and the speeches made about Nelson

:01:59. > :02:05.Mandela. Today is chance for the people of South Africa to pay their

:02:06. > :02:11.respect, rather like when Winston Churchill died, George VI died,

:02:12. > :02:15.people queued to go past the coffin. Here we will have the could have

:02:16. > :02:22.fine from the hospital through the streets, which they expect to be

:02:23. > :02:27.lined with people. An open coffin, because he's embalmed, first the

:02:28. > :02:33.members of the public will come, the Government will come and the public

:02:34. > :02:38.will be allowed to file fast. We're up at the Union Buildings.

:02:39. > :02:45.Thank you very much, as you said this is the highest point in

:02:46. > :02:49.Pretoria. As I look across the amphitheatre you can see much of the

:02:50. > :02:52.city laid out in front of us. Happily it is a rather better day

:02:53. > :02:57.than we had yesterday, and the people who will come across here,

:02:58. > :03:00.this amphitheatre, which will be renamed, it will be known as the

:03:01. > :03:06.Nelson Mandela amphitheatre, so the people will come across us, as we

:03:07. > :03:11.look out here. We're told they are going to try to get people through

:03:12. > :03:15.at a rate of 2,000 an hour. Clearly, as you say, there may be tens of

:03:16. > :03:21.thousands of people who will want to pay their respects to Nelson

:03:22. > :03:27.Mandela. The man who was, who took the oath of office, as you say, just

:03:28. > :03:30.here, nearly 20 years ago. Thank you George, we will be back

:03:31. > :03:38.there with you at the Union Buildings later on. I'm joined here

:03:39. > :03:44.by Dr Ramaphosa, a political fighter is the way to describe you, you set

:03:45. > :03:48.up a party this year against the ANC because you don't like the way that

:03:49. > :03:55.the great revolution achieved by Nelson Mandela has turned out. I

:03:56. > :04:02.wonder what your thought are today, you go back to the very heart of

:04:03. > :04:10.this struggle. You were the partner of Steve Bkeko, and you saw many

:04:11. > :04:15.friends killed in the era and as he was assassinated. When the coffin

:04:16. > :04:21.goes by will be you back there? My thoughts are likely to be back to

:04:22. > :04:29.the first day I saw Mr Mandela, which was July 31st 1988. But there

:04:30. > :04:37.would also be thoughts of gratitude. That such great man was able to help

:04:38. > :04:47.us conclude a struggle which had become a stalemate. My thoughts will

:04:48. > :04:54.also be about how do we take forward his legacy? How do we honour this

:04:55. > :05:01.great man in terms of making sure that we complete the long walk to

:05:02. > :05:06.freedom which has not yet been completed for 80% of South Africa's

:05:07. > :05:11.people. How did you yourself first become involved in the battle

:05:12. > :05:14.against apartheid, because some people took no part in that, just

:05:15. > :05:19.lived lives under apartheid. But there were others who decided they

:05:20. > :05:23.should stand up and fight, you were one of those. How did that come

:05:24. > :05:30.about? I was fortunate to be part of a community of students, only about

:05:31. > :05:41.15 of us, at Natale Medical School, which was only for black stew

:05:42. > :05:46.udents. It was called the Natale University Non-European section. We

:05:47. > :05:51.had happily called ourselves non-Europeans and non-whites until

:05:52. > :05:56.after many months of discussions, of reading up on Martin Luthur king,

:05:57. > :06:03.and the Black Power struggle in the UK, and rights in South Africa. We

:06:04. > :06:09.came to a slowly evolving conclusion. That the major problem,

:06:10. > :06:20.why apartheid was so powerful, conducted by a minority over a large

:06:21. > :06:29.majority was because they had imprisoned our minds. That started

:06:30. > :06:38.with identity. Imprisoned your minds not just the people? That is the

:06:39. > :06:43.greatest power. How was your mind imprisoned, you doesn't strike me as

:06:44. > :06:47.that, you are someone who speaks their mind? If you are in the power

:06:48. > :06:52.of someone oppressing you, you are a prisoner. The day we stood up and

:06:53. > :06:59.said we are black and proud, we then became unstoppable agents of

:07:00. > :07:06.freedom. And that is the power that enabled us to mobilise students in

:07:07. > :07:11.all the black campuses, to mobilise high school students, that is how

:07:12. > :07:15.June 16th happened. I want to talk to you more in a moment about the

:07:16. > :07:23.way the Government tried to prevent people lobing you like you from

:07:24. > :07:30.getting your voice heard. We were told that at 7.00 our time, but 5.00

:07:31. > :07:37.in the UK, we are seen all over the world with this programme, I don't

:07:38. > :07:40.know where you are. you are. .00 time, the coffin of Nelson

:07:41. > :07:45.Mandela will be brought out and taken on its way to union buildings.

:07:46. > :07:49.It goes on an interesting route, it passes among other things the main

:07:50. > :07:56.prison in Pretoria, and the place where Nelson Mandela was put on

:07:57. > :08:06.trial and sentenced to life imprisonment. We're along the route.

:08:07. > :08:11.I'm on Madiba Street in the heart of Pretoria, and it is along here that

:08:12. > :08:15.Nelson Mandela's body will be travelling in the next hour or so,

:08:16. > :08:22.as it makes its way to the place it will officially lie in state, the

:08:23. > :08:27.Union Buildings, in the distance. Let's paint a bigger picture of the

:08:28. > :08:34.scene, a huge barrier is lining the route, manned by security personnel

:08:35. > :08:39.to allow smooth passage for the cortege, as it heads from the

:08:40. > :08:44.hospital overnight to the Union Buildings. It is about a distance of

:08:45. > :08:51.11. 5kms, and the authorities are saying it should take about an hour

:08:52. > :08:56.to process along the route. If yesterday the memorial service of

:08:57. > :08:59.the FNB Stadium was an opportunity for ordinary South Africans to

:09:00. > :09:05.celebrate Nelson Mandela's life in words and song, and eulogies, then

:09:06. > :09:11.today perhaps is an opportunity for South Africans to say goodbye, bid

:09:12. > :09:19.him a formal and final farewell before his body heads off to the

:09:20. > :09:26.burial site in country new, on Sunday. The Government said it would

:09:27. > :09:31.like to see ordinary South Africans lining the route to form a guard of

:09:32. > :09:35.honour, if you like, for Nelson Mandela's body as it moves along the

:09:36. > :09:39.route here. And once it does reach the destination where it will lie in

:09:40. > :09:44.state, over the next three days, people will be able to view his

:09:45. > :09:50.casket. No photographs will be allowed to be taken, no cell phones

:09:51. > :09:54.allowed inside the room. But or theory South Africans will be a--

:09:55. > :09:59.but ordinary South Africans will be able to view his body in the

:10:00. > :10:04.buildings here. I have a couple of people who have come down here to

:10:05. > :10:08.Madiba Street and are willing to talk to us. You are Christie Horn,

:10:09. > :10:17.explain why it is important for you to be here today? It is an absolute

:10:18. > :10:25.blessing to be part of the historical memorial event, that the

:10:26. > :10:28.world has seen. To pay my last respects to Nelson Mandela. He was

:10:29. > :10:33.such a great person, such a loving person, and we all love him. Don't

:10:34. > :10:40.matter who you are in South Africa, or worldwide, we all loved him. And

:10:41. > :10:44.it is a huge loss for all of us. It is my way of paying tribute to him

:10:45. > :10:50.today, this morning, because I couldn't make it yesterday, it was

:10:51. > :10:55.absolutely impossible. So this is my opportunity to view the casket when

:10:56. > :11:03.he passes and to take that moment and hold on to it forever. Porsche,

:11:04. > :11:07.come in here, you are another one of the people who have decided to come

:11:08. > :11:11.down here and Christie you come in, we need to get both your

:11:12. > :11:15.perspectives. Porsche I would like to ask you what Nelson Mandela means

:11:16. > :11:21.to you here? Nelson Mandela means to me freedom, because now we are free

:11:22. > :11:24.because he fought for us, he fought for our freedom, everything we have

:11:25. > :11:30.today. To be free walking in the street, to be free talking and about

:11:31. > :11:34.with an opinion, it is because he's our true hero. When you see the

:11:35. > :11:40.casket, when you see the coffin as it moves down here, how is that

:11:41. > :11:45.going to affect you personally, deep down? It will show me he's really

:11:46. > :11:49.going, our hero is not here any more, we can't him any more, but his

:11:50. > :11:56.memory still belongs with us. Christie, is there a sense that it

:11:57. > :12:04.is not really sunk in for a lot of South Africans that made has --

:12:05. > :12:08.Madiba has gone, but today it will hit home? I think today when the

:12:09. > :12:12.public and the world see the casket passing by, for the next three days

:12:13. > :12:20.it will kick in and then people will realise. But he left us. I also feel

:12:21. > :12:26.at the moment my heart is pumping very fast because this moment is

:12:27. > :12:33.history in the making. And I'm so glad to be part of it, it is such a

:12:34. > :12:40.blessed moment. Thank you so much that we can share, me and Porsche,

:12:41. > :12:50.share it with the world, how we feel as South Africans. I feel terribly

:12:51. > :12:54.full of heartache and you can hear in my voice...? It is interesting,

:12:55. > :12:58.isn't t I know you are tearing up there, it is interesting isn't it,

:12:59. > :13:04.we're actually in the middle of Pretoria, the place is rich with

:13:05. > :13:07.symbolism, isn't it Porsche, the Palace of Justice is to our right,

:13:08. > :13:11.that is where Nelson Mandela was handed down his 27-year sentence to

:13:12. > :13:16.go to Robben Island, being in this area, what is that like to you? I'm

:13:17. > :13:20.scared at the same time, I'm shivering without knowing what to

:13:21. > :13:24.say, but he has done it for u that is all I can say. Thank you both

:13:25. > :13:30.very much indeed for joining us here. Some poignant memories there,

:13:31. > :13:33.and the thoughts of some of the ordinary South Africans who will be

:13:34. > :13:36.lining this route over the next hour, Nelson Mandela's funeral

:13:37. > :13:40.cortege is expected to move along here in the next few minutes and of

:13:41. > :13:47.course we will bring you that live. Back to you.

:13:48. > :13:51.We're stale e -- still parentally waiting for the coffin to leave the

:13:52. > :13:56.hospital in Pretoria, the hospital where he was himself treated, the

:13:57. > :14:01.military hospital here. Dr Mamphela Ramphele is with us and we were

:14:02. > :14:04.talking about the struggle against apartheid, and people forget what it

:14:05. > :14:08.was like to stand up against it. What were the measures that the

:14:09. > :14:13.state, the Government, the police took against you and your friends

:14:14. > :14:18.when you tried to speak out against apartheid? What actually happened to

:14:19. > :14:23.you all? Their whole approach was one of striking terror in the hearts

:14:24. > :14:32.of those who dared to oppose the system. And in our case, we were

:14:33. > :14:38.restricted, first they restricted the movements and the freedom of

:14:39. > :14:43.speech of the leaders of the black consciousness movement. They were

:14:44. > :14:48.all banished or banned to different parts of South Africa to scatter

:14:49. > :14:53.them so that the solidarity we had built could be broken. But what they

:14:54. > :15:00.didn't bargain for was our tenacity. So we were like a salt mander, the

:15:01. > :15:06.more they cut the tail the more it grows a tail. They then had

:15:07. > :15:12.established a community in King Williams Town, which worked with

:15:13. > :15:31.people who were poor to demonstrate that we can work together to improve

:15:32. > :15:39.the short-term You were being beaten up? They use detention orders and

:15:40. > :15:47.they could, at the drop of a hat arrest you. Steve was arrested for

:15:48. > :15:53.failing to stop at the end of a street. Steve Biko in the end was

:15:54. > :16:00.tortured horribly and driven in a van, if I remember, to Pretoria and

:16:01. > :16:08.died soon after arriving, naked and chained in the back of a van, that

:16:09. > :16:13.is right isn't it? Yes, the idea was when you were detained, to torture

:16:14. > :16:21.you, humiliated you. In his case, because they humiliate you, they

:16:22. > :16:28.smashed his head and killed him. And they drove him naked at the back of

:16:29. > :16:38.a van. And he died here in the city. Many people died in mysterious

:16:39. > :16:46.deaths. I was, myself banished, to a completely unknown place where I was

:16:47. > :16:54.to spend eight years of my life. Not allowed to leave? Not allowed to

:16:55. > :17:01.leave. I was restricted to a little Twp of 800, and I had to get

:17:02. > :17:11.permission to leave town. If I wanted to go to church I have to get

:17:12. > :17:17.permission. People disappeared. There where the formal hangings of

:17:18. > :17:22.people who oppose the government, I think 121 judicial hangings by the

:17:23. > :17:26.state. Then there were people who died in detention mysteriously,

:17:27. > :17:32.people were shot on the streets of Soweto and other places. People were

:17:33. > :17:36.described by the police as dying through slipping in the shower, I

:17:37. > :17:44.remember was one thing. It just said, " slipped in the shower". But

:17:45. > :17:52.one suspected something more serious happened to them? Absolutely, many

:17:53. > :17:55.more people died gruesome deaths. We are waiting for Nelson Mandela's

:17:56. > :18:01.Coffin to leave the military hospital, but let's remind ourselves

:18:02. > :18:11.of the person all South Africa and the world is remembering during

:18:12. > :18:25.these days of mourning. Nelson Mandela fought to bring

:18:26. > :18:35.political change to South Africa. In the struggle for equal rights, he

:18:36. > :18:46.was imprisoned for 27 years, but rose to become the first black

:18:47. > :18:56.president of South Africa. He said he could not pinpoint the moment

:18:57. > :19:07.when he became politicised, but always knew he would devote his life

:19:08. > :19:18.to liberation. He took his first steps on this path when he helped to

:19:19. > :19:19.establish the youth wing of the African National Congress in 1994.

:19:20. > :19:21.When he was 30, the government introduced the policy of apartheid,

:19:22. > :19:22.that systematically and often brutally separated races. Nelson

:19:23. > :19:24.Mandela and his friend, Oliver Tambo set up a law firm in 1952 which

:19:25. > :19:25.specialised in the fallout from apartheid laws. His resolute

:19:26. > :19:26.campaigning brought him into conflict with the state. In 1956

:19:27. > :19:32.Mandela was charged with high treason along with 155 activists. He

:19:33. > :19:37.was acquitted four years later. The struggle took a toll on family life

:19:38. > :19:49.and in 1958 he divorced his first wife, Eva Lind. He married again, to

:19:50. > :20:01.Winnie, a social worker. In March 1960 at a protest, police

:20:02. > :20:06.shot dead 69 people. The ANC was banned and Nelson Mandela went into

:20:07. > :20:13.hiding. While underground he hinted at new direction for the ANC. There

:20:14. > :20:18.are many people who feel it is futile for us to continue

:20:19. > :20:29.nonviolence against a government whose reply is to open fire on

:20:30. > :20:40.unarmed, defenceless people. Mandela went on to establish the ANC's

:20:41. > :20:49.military wing. He was tried for sabotage in 1963. He proudly

:20:50. > :21:00.confessed his guilt and spoke boldly from the dock. I have fought against

:21:01. > :21:07.white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have

:21:08. > :21:15.cherished the idea of a democratic and free society in which all

:21:16. > :21:23.persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an

:21:24. > :21:35.idea for which I hope to live for and to see realised. But, my lord,

:21:36. > :21:43.if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

:21:44. > :21:50.He avoided the death penalty, but was sentenced to life imprisonment.

:21:51. > :21:55.He served 27 years in prison, 18 years in Robben Island, a desolate

:21:56. > :22:02.place off the coast of Cape Town. Conditions were harsh. He was

:22:03. > :22:10.confined to a small, uncomfortable cell and forced to carry out hard

:22:11. > :22:13.labour. With Nelson Mandela and the other ANC leaders behind bars, it

:22:14. > :22:18.fell to another generation to continue the struggle against

:22:19. > :22:21.apartheid. As pressure grew on the South African government, the

:22:22. > :22:28.president, PW Botha, offered Nelson Mandela, now 65 years old,

:22:29. > :22:35.conditional release for renouncing armed struggle. His defiant response

:22:36. > :22:41.was delivered by his daughter. My father says, I cannot and will not,

:22:42. > :22:50.give any undertaking at a time when I hand you, the people are not free.

:22:51. > :22:57.I will return. The fight to free Nelson Mandela

:22:58. > :23:04.became a worldwide cause. In 1988, 600 million people in 67 countries

:23:05. > :23:10.watched his 70th birthday concert. Finally, on the 2nd of February,

:23:11. > :23:16.1990, President FW de Klerk reversed the ban on Nelson Mandela and the

:23:17. > :23:25.ANC. The government has taken a decision to release Mr Mandela

:23:26. > :23:32.unconditionally. The skies are lifting in Pretoria,

:23:33. > :23:35.the sun is coming out. It is mid-summer so it should be like

:23:36. > :23:39.this. George Alagiah is at the Union Buildings, but it does not seem the

:23:40. > :23:43.procession with the Coffin has left the military hospital. Is that a

:23:44. > :23:49.sign of things to come at the Union Buildings? There are still

:23:50. > :23:54.preparations going on. I am on the west Wing of the Union Buildings,

:23:55. > :24:01.which is a few paces from where Nelson Mandela occupied the office

:24:02. > :24:05.of residency with such dignity. Let me give you some idea what will

:24:06. > :24:09.happen today. Normally of course, tomorrow and Friday, this area would

:24:10. > :24:13.be open to the public throughout the day. Today will be slightly

:24:14. > :24:22.different. What we think will happen is, first there will be an official

:24:23. > :24:26.delegation, close members of the family, perhaps an international

:24:27. > :24:31.dignitaries. They will come here to view the body of Nelson Mandela.

:24:32. > :24:39.That will go on until about midday, it is only after that the public

:24:40. > :24:42.will come through. As you say, it is brightening up, it is much better

:24:43. > :24:49.weather for those people who will queue up to come through here.

:24:50. > :24:54.It is a big change from yesterday because in Johannesburg it was

:24:55. > :25:01.raining. People were saying it is God's sign of grace to give reign at

:25:02. > :25:06.a funeral. I think it reduced the number of people who came to the

:25:07. > :25:09.football stadium. It was the same here, pouring with rain all day

:25:10. > :25:16.long. It may mean people will come out onto the streets in Pretoria to

:25:17. > :25:20.see the Coffin going past. There have been people dancing in the

:25:21. > :25:30.streets already along this route, which takes us up from the hospital

:25:31. > :25:34.itself, past the old monuments, pass the Freedom Park set up as a

:25:35. > :25:39.reminder of all those people who have given their lives in the cause

:25:40. > :25:45.of freedom. Pass the prison and then into the centre of Victoria, right

:25:46. > :25:49.through downtown Pretoria past church square and then finally

:25:50. > :25:56.winding up to these Union Buildings here behind us. We are waiting, as

:25:57. > :26:00.ever, for action on the military fronts, because it is a military

:26:01. > :26:05.escort that will bring the Coffin out of the military hospital and

:26:06. > :26:11.take it on its way. As soon as we get those pictures, we will go to

:26:12. > :26:19.them. We are talking about apartheid and the early years and the terror,

:26:20. > :26:25.described very vividly. Let's jump forward, you were an idealist, part

:26:26. > :26:28.of a group of people who believed that when apartheid fell, the

:26:29. > :26:35.country would have a new start, a new life. But you are one of those,

:26:36. > :26:38.one of many people, who are extremely disappointed with what has

:26:39. > :26:44.happened and what is happening now with the government of President

:26:45. > :26:50.Jacob Zuma. What went wrong with the ANC and their revolution? What went

:26:51. > :26:56.wrong is that we underestimated what it would take to transform a society

:26:57. > :27:12.that had been engineered into inequality. We simply, and the ANC

:27:13. > :27:20.in particular, focused on taking control of the liver of power. And

:27:21. > :27:24.many, including Nelson Mandela, we need a panel of people who have

:27:25. > :27:29.lived in the country, who understand what it will take to make the

:27:30. > :27:42.changes that are needed. To bring freedom into the lives of people.

:27:43. > :27:51.There will be a band playing the national anthem and salute up at the

:27:52. > :27:55.Union Buildings. This is the band on its way to the amphitheatre, I

:27:56. > :28:01.suspect, where the Coffin will lie in state. It is marching along the

:28:02. > :28:07.Esplanade just in front of the amphitheatre with the gardens that

:28:08. > :28:15.swoop down and the big memorial in Afrikaans and English there. There

:28:16. > :28:27.is an Army band and it is led by the air force.

:28:28. > :28:34.We saw a glimpse of what is happening. Tantalisingly close, we

:28:35. > :28:44.could almost see it with the naked eye. But not quite. It is a splendid

:28:45. > :28:50.site? It is fantastic. It is one of the best, best sites in our country

:28:51. > :28:55.in terms of architecture. I am told when it was built, because it was

:28:56. > :28:59.hoped to symbolise the union after the boardwalk, that one side is

:29:00. > :29:06.meant to be an Afrikaans side and the other is an English side. It is

:29:07. > :29:12.certainly a very splendid building. Where you there when the

:29:13. > :29:19.inauguration of Nelson Mandela as president happened? Certainly not, I

:29:20. > :29:25.was in Boston on a sabbatical. I watched it on television, streaming

:29:26. > :29:33.tears down my face. Just a wonderful day. I watched it pretty much from

:29:34. > :29:42.where we are now, and watching the jet planes flying over. This is the

:29:43. > :29:48.God of honour now. -- guard of honour. This guard of honour will be

:29:49. > :30:00.here for the next three days, standing over the Coffin.

:30:01. > :30:43.And now a motorcade through the streets, I suspect though I won't

:30:44. > :30:53.say it because it is moving rather fast, it might be the motorcade

:30:54. > :30:56.proceeding the hearse, carrying Nelson Mandela's could have even if,

:30:57. > :31:00.we are short of accurate information about what it is that is happening.

:31:01. > :31:04.The pictures are just being sent in. We will watch that, if it is, as I

:31:05. > :31:08.think it must be, the coffin, it will come those streets and up to

:31:09. > :31:15.where that guard of honour is standing, waiting. It is now just

:31:16. > :31:26.after seven. 30 here in Pretoria. When the coffin comes there, it will

:31:27. > :31:29.be received then the family are thought to be the first people to

:31:30. > :31:33.come to the coffin. Then President Zuma and members of the Government,

:31:34. > :31:38.and then after a pause members of the general public will be allowed

:31:39. > :31:41.in. They are not allowed to drive up here, of course, they go to some

:31:42. > :31:46.holding I can't remember, they have to walk up, but they are expecting,

:31:47. > :32:02.as George was saying about 2,000 people every hour. So we are leaving

:32:03. > :32:07.the pictures here for a moment, standing at attention and watching

:32:08. > :32:24.them here, maybe you can't see them in London. The coffin draped in the

:32:25. > :32:26.national flagg the pictures here for a moment, standing at attention and

:32:27. > :32:29.watching them here, maybe you can't see them in London. The coffin

:32:30. > :32:30.draped in the national flag. And now the crowds cheering as it goes past,

:32:31. > :33:18.somebody throwing flowers. This elegant amphitheatre, it was

:33:19. > :33:25.one of the finest buildings in South Africa with its pillars and very

:33:26. > :33:32.grand inside, the buildings that the President himself occupies and the

:33:33. > :33:41.executive officers. And offices very fine. Interesting that Pretoria was

:33:42. > :33:45.a central place in the Boer War, Winston Churchill was imprisoned

:33:46. > :33:54.here, it was from Pretoria he escaped. Pretoria was besiegedburg

:33:55. > :34:02.the Boer War, and it is named after Pretorius who fought the battle at

:34:03. > :34:08.Blood River, that the Africans always remember, that they culled up

:34:09. > :34:17.at night and slaughtered with guns which the Zulu forces didn't have

:34:18. > :34:24.and slaughtered hundreds. I think we can now join along the route on

:34:25. > :34:28.Madiba Street our correspondent. I'm at the gardens of the union

:34:29. > :34:34.buildings here where Nelson Mandela's body is expected to lie in

:34:35. > :34:37.state for the next three days. We understand the prosession has left

:34:38. > :34:40.the military hospital on the other side of town. What I can tell you

:34:41. > :34:44.about the picture you are seeing now, all law enforcement authorities

:34:45. > :34:49.have already begun lining the streets here in Pretoria. Towards

:34:50. > :34:53.that end the military is already there, the traffic police officers

:34:54. > :34:57.are also on the other end, and of course the police will also be here.

:34:58. > :35:02.Of course there is a very heavy police presence, because we are

:35:03. > :35:10.expecting the convoy to move past this road before it is taken into

:35:11. > :35:16.the Union Buildings To lie instate. Members of the public have started

:35:17. > :35:20.to gather here early this morning. Today is a totally and completely

:35:21. > :35:27.different mood compared to the party and the celebration that we saw at

:35:28. > :35:30.FNB Stadium, at the Mel rial where over 90 heads of state were

:35:31. > :35:34.represented and thousands of South Africans had gathered there. Today

:35:35. > :35:38.is some what of a somber feeling that is going on. A lot of South

:35:39. > :35:44.Africans, this is the first for many of them that they will be seeing

:35:45. > :35:48.such happenings, particularly in South Africa's new democratic state.

:35:49. > :35:53.There has never been a file past of this magnitude and we are expecting

:35:54. > :36:12.Nelson Mandela's body to arrive here in the next half an hour. Can I ask

:36:13. > :36:18.your movements are you going to stay here and wait? So members of the

:36:19. > :36:21.family now have started to arrive and the mmander of the guard

:36:22. > :37:16.explaining them what the procedure will be.

:37:17. > :37:28.A stray helicopter keeping an eye on things, and the prosession still on

:37:29. > :37:35.its way here to the Union Buildings. I have to say these pictures are not

:37:36. > :37:44.exactly under our control, hence the slightly happen hazard nature of --

:37:45. > :37:54.haphazard nature of what we are able to show you. We haven't yet seen

:37:55. > :38:01.people queueing, waiting to come up to the Union Buildings, but there

:38:02. > :38:10.from that helicopter perhaps the scene of the coffin going through

:38:11. > :38:43.down town Pretoria. A long prosession of cars behind it.

:38:44. > :38:53.Well, while we are watching this static picture, Dr Mamphela

:38:54. > :38:58.Ramphele, do you think Nelson Mandela's death will arouse very

:38:59. > :39:05.powerful emotions, long-lasting emotions in the general public of

:39:06. > :39:08.South Africa. You talked about your own feelings? Absolutely, we began

:39:09. > :39:16.to see it yesterday at the FNB stadium. Here at the symbolic site

:39:17. > :39:21.of Government, where he was inaugurated and now where people are

:39:22. > :39:27.going to bid a final farewell to him, it will forever be a place

:39:28. > :39:41.etched in the memory of South Africa. Across generations. This is

:39:42. > :39:55.the Metropolitan Police escort for the hearse. It goes past the central

:39:56. > :40:00.prison in Pretoria where Nelson Mandela was first imprisoned,

:40:01. > :40:06.imprisoned for five years for leaving the country illegally, if

:40:07. > :40:15.you can believe, and he served the part of his sentence here in

:40:16. > :40:25.Pretoria. Given prisoner number 1947662. His famous prison number

:40:26. > :40:34.was 46664, and the 64 stood for the year he was incarcerated, previously

:40:35. > :40:38.he was 64462, a dismal place, and I think Winnie Mandela was also in

:40:39. > :40:47.prison for a time in the Pretoria jail. I have been joined here now in

:40:48. > :40:55.the studio, I'm delayeded to say by Mosiuoa Lekota, Terror as he is

:40:56. > :40:59.called, but for his prowess on the footballfield! You have had a

:41:00. > :41:03.distinguished career with the ANC, you have been First Minister in the

:41:04. > :41:07.federal system here. And I know that you are now rather dubious about the

:41:08. > :41:13.way the ANC has gone. But before we talk about that, we were talking

:41:14. > :41:19.about the early connections with Nelson Mandela, what was your first

:41:20. > :41:25.meeting with him? How did you come across Mandela. You were a much

:41:26. > :41:32.younger man than he? We met on Robben Island, when I got to Robben

:41:33. > :41:36.Island with my BPC colleagues, after we had been arrested following

:41:37. > :41:41.celebrations of the independence of Mozambique. You were a student

:41:42. > :41:47.activist really weren't you at the time? That's correct. So when we got

:41:48. > :41:52.to Robben Island, they had already been there of course. We arrived

:41:53. > :41:56.there, we had been arrested in 1974 with Mozambique's independence,

:41:57. > :42:01.after two years of detention and trial we arrived on Robben Island,

:42:02. > :42:06.at the end of 1976. That is where we met him. Were you very, I get the

:42:07. > :42:09.impression there was a period when Nelson Mandela almost faded from

:42:10. > :42:14.public memory, because his name couldn't be put in the newspapers,

:42:15. > :42:19.his name couldn't be used on radio, were you very aware of Mandela and

:42:20. > :42:24.the other people who were imprisoned at the trial when you arrived at

:42:25. > :42:29.Robben Island, or were they a curiosity to you because they had

:42:30. > :42:34.faded? No, no, no, I must say up front, our generation did not have

:42:35. > :42:39.his name in the newspapers and TVs and so on, but his name was quite

:42:40. > :42:43.common in the homes. Even behind closed doors, mostly the communities

:42:44. > :42:49.spoke about their leaders, our leaders, so we grew to knew we had

:42:50. > :42:53.leaders imprisoned on Robben Island. We couldn't generally say how they

:42:54. > :42:58.looked like, because their pictures were not allowed there. You had only

:42:59. > :43:03.seen the very young Mandela? That's correct. I will talk to you more

:43:04. > :43:06.about it in a moment, it is all very fascinated? We didn't know as much

:43:07. > :43:12.about them as we came to know about them when they got there. It wa

:43:13. > :43:17.There was a bit of curiosity on our part to know them. I must say there

:43:18. > :43:20.was a dichotomy about this, we were terrified of going to jail, and yet

:43:21. > :43:26.we were also curious to go and see him and find out about how they were

:43:27. > :43:30.doing and what they would be saying. I want to talk to you in a moment

:43:31. > :43:35.about what impression you formed. You were young men and he was a much

:43:36. > :43:46.more mature man, but let's just join the route of this prosession towards

:43:47. > :43:54.the Union Buildings. The funeral cortege moved past here about 10-15

:43:55. > :43:58.minutes ago, it went by in flash, it took quite a few people by surprise,

:43:59. > :44:02.and it was quite difficult to get a glimpse of the casket, draped in the

:44:03. > :44:07.South African flag in the back of it. It zipped past here about 10-15

:44:08. > :44:11.minutes ago, some of the people here have dispersed since the cortege

:44:12. > :44:16.went past. Many have stayed around, with me is Zenele, one of those

:44:17. > :44:20.here, what were your thoughts when you saw the former President's body

:44:21. > :44:24.go past here? He was very much happy, I'm here to pay my last

:44:25. > :44:28.respects for my President, when I see the President passing here I was

:44:29. > :44:33.very happy, I was so excited to see to him. I want to say to the family,

:44:34. > :44:38.Mr President Mandela took good care of us, we really appreciate the way

:44:39. > :44:43.we grew in the country. We are free, we know how to respect each other in

:44:44. > :44:47.this country. Yes. Joseph, if you could come in here, you were one of

:44:48. > :44:52.those who saw the cortege go by, what were your thoughts when that

:44:53. > :44:57.happened? It was a very sad moment to see Dr Mandela passing, we saw

:44:58. > :45:02.the coffin and we had to pay our last respects, but did it is a very

:45:03. > :45:07.sad situation to all of the South Africans now. Before you saw the

:45:08. > :45:14.cortege move past, had it really sunk into you that made is no --

:45:15. > :45:17.Madiba is no longer here? It was a dream and I thought it was a dream

:45:18. > :45:21.and it is not true, but today after seeing the coffin I told myself it

:45:22. > :45:25.is true, that is what is happening, so we have to deal with that all

:45:26. > :45:37.South Africans, the family, they have to deal with that situation.

:45:38. > :45:45.Did you have similar thoughts as well that it was not true? Yes, we

:45:46. > :45:53.did not see him. But it was a very sad moment when our president passed

:45:54. > :45:59.away. How important was it for you to be here in person to say

:46:00. > :46:04.goodbye? Because we have not seen Madiba for a very long time, as he

:46:05. > :46:10.was sick, I thought today it would be an honour to be here and pay my

:46:11. > :46:14.last respects to Madiba. That is why I am here today. It is interesting,

:46:15. > :46:20.we're not far from the building where Nelson Mandela was handed down

:46:21. > :46:28.that sentence that send him to rob an island in the 1960s? Our

:46:29. > :46:36.president, we could not see him, but it was very sad when he passed away.

:46:37. > :46:42.We will pay our last tribute to the president. What does Nelson Mandela

:46:43. > :46:49.mean to you? He was the Lord, he was the father. He has been a father and

:46:50. > :46:53.president, everything to this country. If it wasn't for him we

:46:54. > :46:59.would be oppressed in this country and be behind. We would be behind,

:47:00. > :47:07.he fought for us. He is South Africa. What are your feelings for

:47:08. > :47:13.his family today? I feel very sad for them because they have lost a

:47:14. > :47:21.father and an icon to all of us. It is a very difficult situation for

:47:22. > :47:26.them. They should stay strong, stay together to get past this situation.

:47:27. > :47:36.Thank you both for joining us. That is the scene here. A few people are

:47:37. > :47:41.still hanging around. It seems like this will continue over the next two

:47:42. > :47:48.days as Nelson Mandela's body lies in state.

:47:49. > :47:54.We have been joined in the studio, over the din of the television

:47:55. > :48:00.helicopters getting the pictures, I am delighted we are joined by George

:48:01. > :48:06.Bizos, the distinguished lawyer who defended Nelson Mandela at his trial

:48:07. > :48:12.and has defended Winnie Mandela many times. A close friend of the family.

:48:13. > :48:17.We are keeping an eye on the procession, obviously. I want to ask

:48:18. > :48:22.your feelings, how did you get to know Nelson Mandela? You were a

:48:23. > :48:30.young lawyer, you come from Greece, how did you first get to know him?

:48:31. > :48:39.In 1948 we were students. He was the head of the African National

:48:40. > :48:46.Congress youth league. 1948 was a bad year for democracy and human

:48:47. > :48:56.rights. There were protests at the University. Nelson Mandela was the

:48:57. > :49:04.regular protests speaker. I was influenced by that. I became part of

:49:05. > :49:10.the group that was protesting. That is the beginning of a long story

:49:11. > :49:13.which we will go into in a moment. But let's just watch the scene at

:49:14. > :49:20.the Union Buildings as the coughing is taken from the Hearst and will be

:49:21. > :49:29.moved into this huge half -- arch where they have built for it to lie

:49:30. > :49:32.in state. The Escort of the military police in White helmets at the

:49:33. > :50:04.front. The guard of honour to the right. The band is just beyond them.

:50:05. > :50:22.The heads of the Armed Forces and the chaplain general. And Ndaba,

:50:23. > :50:27.Nelson Mandela's grandson. A controversial figure in the family,

:50:28. > :51:18.waiting for his grandfather's body to be brought out.

:51:19. > :51:26.The chaplain general of the Armed Forces, in uniform. But with the

:51:27. > :51:34.purple stole of his office as chaplain general. The helicopters

:51:35. > :51:45.are still buzzing over, as we are waiting for the coffin to be brought

:51:46. > :51:55.out. They were commenting on the noise above them. And so, on this

:51:56. > :52:03.hot morning, it is now just after 7:50am here in Pretoria. We are

:52:04. > :52:09.waiting for what will be, first of all a private moment when the family

:52:10. > :52:14.greet the body and the coffin and then a public moment when the

:52:15. > :52:23.politicians do. And that to be followed by the public at large.

:52:24. > :52:27.These are senior officers of the services with black armbands, who

:52:28. > :52:48.will be the guard that carries the coffin, the coffin bearers.

:52:49. > :54:00.The band now plays the national anthem.

:54:01. > :55:14.the terrace of the Union Buildings on the higher hill in Pretoria with

:55:15. > :55:18.the guard of honour and the pallbearers, about to carry Nelson

:55:19. > :55:24.Mandela's coffin from the Hearst which brought it from the hospital

:55:25. > :55:30.in Pretoria, up to the quadrangle at the top. It is there, where it will

:55:31. > :57:39.lie in state. Doctor, who do we have coming here,

:57:40. > :57:54.apart from the service chiefs, is at the family? Yes, the family. His

:57:55. > :58:01.grandchildren, his son-in-law, the husband of his daughter. And members

:58:02. > :58:07.of the panel who sang his praises yesterday. They were very moving

:58:08. > :58:14.doing that? Yes, and very fitting tribute to their grandad. I am

:58:15. > :58:28.joined in the studio, if we can come back into the studio for a moment.

:58:29. > :58:33.Professor, this service, this ceremony, to what extent is it a

:58:34. > :58:44.traditional, African service we are seeing here? First of all, thank you

:58:45. > :58:49.for that question. This service here is where people will go and view the

:58:50. > :58:55.body of Nelson Mandela, first they are paying their last respects. And

:58:56. > :59:03.number two, it is helping them to release him to go. And number three,

:59:04. > :59:08.it is also a healing process. In other words, now that people have

:59:09. > :59:15.seen him, that is the body, even those who did not accept yet that he

:59:16. > :59:21.is gone, they are now able to say they have seen him and he is gone.

:59:22. > :59:28.And that might be some form of healing to them. There are moments

:59:29. > :59:33.when the family actually speak to the body, is this one of them or is

:59:34. > :59:39.that at the actual burial itself? That is right. I was told yesterday

:59:40. > :59:44.you speak to the body to tell it where it is and what has happened to

:59:45. > :59:49.it? That is right. The belief is, even though the person has passed

:59:50. > :59:57.away, but he is not regarded as actually dead, dead, dead. So people

:59:58. > :00:01.can still communicate with him. Remember now he is becoming an

:00:02. > :00:09.ancestor of the family. So people must, from time to time, communicate

:00:10. > :00:14.with him. They also believe that he is awake, so he can hear and that is

:00:15. > :00:19.why they need to always tell him, this is where we are now, we are

:00:20. > :00:25.going there. This is what is going to happen now, so he is aware of

:00:26. > :00:28.what is happening around. Is this done to whispering to the coffin, or

:00:29. > :00:35.talking out loud like you are talking to me? Sometimes people can

:00:36. > :00:39.talk like I am talking to you now, so other members of the family can

:00:40. > :00:44.hear what is being said. I think most of the time that is what is

:00:45. > :00:49.happening. Let's go back to the fashion -- processional route and

:00:50. > :00:57.joint our correspondent down in Madiba Street. This is Nelson

:00:58. > :01:01.Mandela's rainbow nation, we see black and white people holding hands

:01:02. > :01:06.down here as they gather to pay tribute to Nelson Mandela. His

:01:07. > :01:10.convoy has just driven past, the coffin was draped in a South African

:01:11. > :01:17.flag. Very, very emotional scenes here, in fact, I saw some members of

:01:18. > :01:21.the military wiping away some tears. As you can see people are waving

:01:22. > :01:26.South African flags. They are also singing songs, praising Nelson

:01:27. > :01:35.Mandela. They are saying that Nelson Mandela led an army that liberated

:01:36. > :01:39.South Africa back in 1994. This is the first time that there are such

:01:40. > :01:44.scenes here, these are the first time that the file past of a former

:01:45. > :01:48.head of state is taking place, after South Africa became a democratic

:01:49. > :01:53.state in 1994. This is a different mood compared to what was going on

:01:54. > :01:57.yesterday. It was a big party celebrations were going on

:01:58. > :02:05.yesterday, but today the mood is some what somber, people are seeing

:02:06. > :02:12.a reality, it is finally hitting home that Nelson Mandela is no more,

:02:13. > :02:15.his body... What happened? Thank you very much, we will go back

:02:16. > :02:29.down there from time to time into the streets. George Bizos, going to

:02:30. > :02:35.the trial itself, where you defended Nelson Mandela, I want to ask you

:02:36. > :02:44.this, were you surprised that those accused didn't get the death

:02:45. > :02:53.penalty? Not surprised. But we feared as soon as the arrest took

:02:54. > :02:58.place in October 1963, and the Government supporting media were

:02:59. > :03:04.shouting from the roof tops that there would be only one sentence.

:03:05. > :03:10.That was the death sentence and they compared the accused as the

:03:11. > :03:22.terrorists of Germany and Italy and Palestine. It was thought that the

:03:23. > :03:30.death sentence would be inevitable. But on October 10th, if I remember

:03:31. > :03:41.the day correctly, the United Nations passed a resolution calling

:03:42. > :03:54.for the release of Mandela and the other accused. Every nation, except

:03:55. > :04:06.for South Africa voted against and Portugal abstained. The decision was

:04:07. > :04:14.almost unanimous. This gave us a lot of hope that even though the regime

:04:15. > :04:27.publicly said that they didn't care about universal public opinion, that

:04:28. > :04:31.they would be influenced by the world bodies and their statements.

:04:32. > :04:34.Do you think the judge in the case was being guided by the Government

:04:35. > :04:39.and told in effect what he should do, or was he making his own mind up

:04:40. > :04:46.independently? We were rather fortunate that we had judge Devitt,

:04:47. > :04:56.he was not hanging judge. He had accept tensed someone to death and

:04:57. > :05:11.then it emerged that the conviction was arrived at by falsee provided by

:05:12. > :05:18.the investigating officer, and that gave him great distaste about the

:05:19. > :05:25.death sentence. So there was an independence in the judiciary even

:05:26. > :05:37.though they were in an apartheid system and the lude File Not Found

:05:38. > :05:40.they were -- -- and they were in the apartheid system and sentencing

:05:41. > :05:52.people to dead? There was a little gap which enabled lawyers like

:05:53. > :05:58.myself and many others to actually be able to put arguments together

:05:59. > :06:04.which were unanswerable and we did succeed in some instances. We will

:06:05. > :06:07.go on down the tale of the years, I want to hear your reflections on

:06:08. > :06:13.Nelson Mandela himself. Let's just go back up there to the Union

:06:14. > :06:17.Buildings and join George again. Thank you very much, yes, so it was

:06:18. > :06:22.just a few moments ago that Nelson Mandela's body was brought here, and

:06:23. > :06:27.it was one of those spine tingling moments if you like. So much of the

:06:28. > :06:31.last few days has been about noise, about the stadium and so on, and

:06:32. > :06:35.here, when we saw the guard of honour salute, as Nelson Mandela's

:06:36. > :06:40.body was brought in, and The National Anthem being sung. That in

:06:41. > :06:45.itself, The National Anthem was a product of Nelson Mandela's

:06:46. > :06:56.determination to reconcile black and white South Africans. Part of the

:06:57. > :07:01.old of a free kick can that -- Afrikana and the song swung by South

:07:02. > :07:09.African blacks over the ages. I have been told we can just see an edge of

:07:10. > :07:14.it lying on the side and the top has been taken off, now we are waiting

:07:15. > :07:17.for the official dignitaries, the families, the close family members

:07:18. > :07:24.to come around, and get their chance to spend just a few private moments

:07:25. > :07:27.with the body of Nelson Mandela. You see it is difficult for the family,

:07:28. > :07:33.they have had, throughout his wife, they have had to share Nelson

:07:34. > :07:37.Mandela -- throughout his life, they have had to share Nelson Mandela,

:07:38. > :07:41.not just with this country but the whole world. If you go on the street

:07:42. > :07:47.I'm sure you have heard people referring to him as "Tata" Mandela,

:07:48. > :07:52.it is a term of respect but also means father. You could see why it

:07:53. > :08:01.would be so important for the family to be given just those few moments

:08:02. > :08:05.of private grief with him later on. George we were talking about how you

:08:06. > :08:09.met Mandela, about the trial, what was he look to defend. He must have

:08:10. > :08:13.been a very difficult man, I suspect, to defend, because he was

:08:14. > :08:16.famous for being stubborn and having his own views about how things

:08:17. > :08:28.should be done? That is an overstatement. Are you sure! We were

:08:29. > :08:35.a team of lawyers, led by Mr Fisher, Berenger, Arthur Cheskilson, he

:08:36. > :08:40.became our Chief Justice. We got on quite well together. You were friend

:08:41. > :08:46.with Mandela, weren't you really, in the end? We became friends. As young

:08:47. > :08:56.lawyers in the 1950s we did cases together, I defended him, I defended

:08:57. > :09:09.Winnie. And we were quite good friends. He wrote the 44-page

:09:10. > :09:19.statement, we discussed it. He took advice. We were given some advice by

:09:20. > :09:24.Anthony Sampson from the great journalist from the United Kingdom.

:09:25. > :09:30.He actually said that, he guided us how to paragraph it. Because he said

:09:31. > :09:40.that the journalists usually read the first three and last two pages

:09:41. > :09:47.of any long document! So that we must rearrange the paragraphing. He

:09:48. > :09:55.took out our advice that he shouldn't challenge the judge to

:09:56. > :10:01.sentence him to death and put the words "if needs be". If needs be he

:10:02. > :10:09.was prepared to die for it? In the final paragraph. But there was no

:10:10. > :10:17.conflict between us. We spent a lot of time preparing the case. You

:10:18. > :10:23.defended Winnie, and numerous times, 20 times? Something like that. What

:10:24. > :10:29.for? There was this offences because she had not stayed where she was

:10:30. > :10:36.told to stay, that sort of thing? They were minor matters. The first

:10:37. > :10:44.time I defended her in the late 50s, a security policeman came and said

:10:45. > :10:48.he was going to arrest her because you didn't have a pass. She said in

:10:49. > :10:54.her characteristic way, get out of my bedroom I want to dress before

:10:55. > :11:12.you arrest me properly for jail. And he grabbed her arm and pulled her,

:11:13. > :11:21.she said some how or other her elbow came across her and he fell down.

:11:22. > :11:28.And he filed a complaint of assault against him! I got a call from

:11:29. > :11:37.Nelson, and he said this was shortly after they were married. He said

:11:38. > :11:44.with laughter, "George, I've married trouble". That was only the

:11:45. > :11:48.beginning! It was the beginning. I defended her successfully, because I

:11:49. > :11:55.think the policeman was actually embarrassed by the fact that he was

:11:56. > :12:00.floored by a woman! But are you an admirer of Winnie still, did you

:12:01. > :12:05.admire her through thick and thin? I feel for her. Because I think that

:12:06. > :12:13.she really has become a tragic figure. And I think that the film

:12:14. > :12:21.that I saw recently, Long Walk To Freedom has actually captured her

:12:22. > :12:26.position. Because there was a moment when he was on Robben Island and she

:12:27. > :12:34.was exiled to some place in the north, where she was really keeping

:12:35. > :12:42.his name alive, publicly? Absolutely. The minister of justice,

:12:43. > :12:50.his constituency was the town that she was exiled to. He actually tried

:12:51. > :12:58.to settle the matter. Because the residents, the white residents said

:12:59. > :13:05.that sending Winnie to this place will not change Winnie but the up to

:13:06. > :13:10.will never be the same again! We are just seeing a long prosession of

:13:11. > :13:15.white cars and we don't know, I would tell you if I knew what they

:13:16. > :13:18.were, of course. And I don't know what they are, indeed nobody seems

:13:19. > :13:24.to know what they are. But what we do know is that along this terrace,

:13:25. > :13:28.in time, will come members of the Government and officials and maybe

:13:29. > :13:36.these are some of them, and that in the end, members of the public will

:13:37. > :13:40.be bused up here in an hour or so. Let's rejoin Clive for a moment and

:13:41. > :13:43.George we will come back because it is very interesting what you are

:13:44. > :13:55.telling us. Let's join Clive on Church Street. Clive.

:13:56. > :13:59.Yes, there were cheers and shouts as the funeral cortege pass bid our

:14:00. > :14:02.position here. The road behind me is slowly being opened up to traffic

:14:03. > :14:07.and there are still quite a few people as can you see or hear behind

:14:08. > :14:11.me who saw his body pass by. It was over in a flash, and took quite a

:14:12. > :14:18.few people by surprise. You had the whirr of military helicopters above

:14:19. > :14:23.you, and then the military police, and then the body came quickly. We

:14:24. > :14:26.have a few people who saw what happened. What was going through

:14:27. > :14:34.your mind when you saw the former President's body fly pass by her? I

:14:35. > :14:39.was is pleased, if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be here, it was the

:14:40. > :14:44.greatest thing I have seen in my life, I was so happy. That is why it

:14:45. > :14:56.was so important to be here? I just wanted to see him passing for the

:14:57. > :15:03.last time. What does Nelson Mandela mean to you? Nelson Mandela means

:15:04. > :15:09.everything. We did not see him enough because it was rushing, so I

:15:10. > :15:21.want to see him now. We thank you for Madiba, we thank him for

:15:22. > :15:25.freedom. Viva! He did go past very quickly, did

:15:26. > :15:31.that take you and everyone by surprise? We thought it was going to

:15:32. > :15:39.drive slowly, but it did pass quickly. But it is OK. As long as we

:15:40. > :15:42.bid him farewell. What about the future now Nelson Mandela is no

:15:43. > :15:48.longer here. Are you confident about the future? Yes I am, we can make

:15:49. > :15:53.it. What we have learned from Nelson Mandela, we can still learn and

:15:54. > :15:58.might think the future is still great because we have learned a lot

:15:59. > :16:04.from him. Thanks for joining us. This is the scene here on the

:16:05. > :16:10.streets of Pretoria. Back to you, David.

:16:11. > :16:15.This is the first day of three days of Nelson Mandela's lying in state

:16:16. > :16:23.at the Union Buildings in Pretoria. Each morning he will be brought from

:16:24. > :16:28.the hospital where he was once treated and where his body has been

:16:29. > :16:32.embalmed and brought in a coffin with a glass topped elite, to these

:16:33. > :16:54.buildings. This is the route it takes through Pretoria. Here he is

:16:55. > :17:01.arriving at the Union Buildings. He arrived here, escorted by the

:17:02. > :17:05.police. On the front side of the Union Buildings, just below the

:17:06. > :17:13.amphitheatre where just under 20 years ago he took the office of

:17:14. > :17:28.president. These scenes took place three quarters of an hour ago, or

:17:29. > :17:30.so. His grandson, Mandla Mandela and the band playing the national

:17:31. > :17:55.anthem. The casket is carried by senior

:17:56. > :18:06.officers. The chaplain general of the forces is in attendance. And

:18:07. > :18:12.they are going to be carrying the cough into a pedestal, which has

:18:13. > :18:23.been placed for the lying in state. -- coffin. So those scenes, three

:18:24. > :18:29.quarters of an hour or so ago. We will be here for the first

:18:30. > :18:37.procession or group of members of the general public to go through to

:18:38. > :18:44.pay their respects. I was talking to you, you have each got very powerful

:18:45. > :18:49.memories of the years of apartheid and what followed. I want to pick up

:18:50. > :18:55.with you, you were a young man and you went into Robben Island because

:18:56. > :18:59.you had been a student protester. Did you expect to find, as some

:19:00. > :19:06.people thought they would find, the old ANC guard, rather... I don't

:19:07. > :19:15.know, dismayed, exhausted? Or did you expect to find them still

:19:16. > :19:21.fighting the cause when you arrived? To be fair to everybody. We had

:19:22. > :19:26.never met them before. The fact they were still on Robben Island for many

:19:27. > :19:31.of us meant they remained committed to the struggle. They could have

:19:32. > :19:39.left if they have said they will not take part in any more politicising?

:19:40. > :19:42.Indeed. We also knew the regime had made efforts to try and get some of

:19:43. > :19:47.the people to abandon the struggle. The fact they had remained there and

:19:48. > :19:54.there was no talk of them relenting. But we could not form an

:19:55. > :20:00.impression. We were very jury is to find out what people they were.

:20:01. > :20:11.Could you meet them face-to-face? Not immediately, but we could steal

:20:12. > :20:13.moments. Where we were locked up when we arrived, we could get into

:20:14. > :20:19.some of the cells that looked into the yard where they were. They would

:20:20. > :20:24.also know from the underground network from the prisoners, there

:20:25. > :20:31.when you people who have been put in there. Even got some information.

:20:32. > :20:38.When we spoke to them, we found them not at all intimidated by the fact

:20:39. > :20:53.they were serving life sentences and in these conditions as risen as.

:20:54. > :21:01.Meals that were by far below par. And they were welcoming to us, they

:21:02. > :21:06.were keen to know what was going on outside. They did not have much

:21:07. > :21:09.information, you were like a newspaper arriving telling them

:21:10. > :21:14.everything from the football scores to what was going on politically? If

:21:15. > :21:21.you were the last prisoner to arrive, even if you were 18 months

:21:22. > :21:26.already there, as long as you were the last one, you always had to tell

:21:27. > :21:32.what was happening outside because you were the one with the freshest

:21:33. > :21:42.news from outside. We found them warm and welcoming. In what sense

:21:43. > :21:47.was he the leader? We know, down the years he has always said I am a

:21:48. > :21:51.loyal servant of the ANC, when I go to have in the first thing I will

:21:52. > :21:57.look for is the ANC branch, and all of those things he has said. Do you

:21:58. > :22:03.feel he was the first among equals or was a real leader, like a general

:22:04. > :22:09.with an army? There is no doubt he was the leader of all of us. There

:22:10. > :22:14.were many political leaders in the ANC, but he was the spokesman for

:22:15. > :22:19.all of us. On hunger strike, if there were serious complaints the

:22:20. > :22:22.prisoners had, he was the one who was asked to go and table the case

:22:23. > :22:30.for the prisoners with the authorities. I observed, as time

:22:31. > :22:38.passed on, it was partly because all of us recognised he had a very

:22:39. > :22:47.steady, bold and authoritative way of stating the case of the prisoners

:22:48. > :22:53.are objectively and without fear, but at the same time without

:22:54. > :22:59.alienating the authorities. All of the political prisoners felt that

:23:00. > :23:05.when we did send him through, we did get the success we had. In the daily

:23:06. > :23:11.life on Robben Island, I think it must be said that not only did he

:23:12. > :23:17.always tried to keep the prisoners together, even across the political

:23:18. > :23:26.divide, but he also had an approach to the Administration, which started

:23:27. > :23:33.to win the authorities. The prison head, the warders, to win them

:23:34. > :23:39.over, so they became part of the struggle against apartheid, so they

:23:40. > :23:47.made life more bearable for the prisoners and created conditions

:23:48. > :23:55.that sustained prisoners. The harsher the conditions, the

:23:56. > :24:00.likelihood of collapsing some of the people is higher. But when you make

:24:01. > :24:05.conditions more bearable, you sustain the capacity of the human

:24:06. > :24:13.being to struggle on. It was an extraordinary Tarrant -- talents, to

:24:14. > :24:22.work out how to deal with your enemy. It was a talent he had in

:24:23. > :24:33.spades? Absolutely. From way back in the early 1950s, when Nelson Mandela

:24:34. > :24:41.decided for the youth league and the ANC that it had the support, not

:24:42. > :24:48.only of African people, but coloured people, people of Indian origin and

:24:49. > :24:55.a substantial number of white people and particularly the religious

:24:56. > :25:05.leaders that looked after their families, the families of the

:25:06. > :25:13.political prisoners. And he was the author in his own mind of an agenda.

:25:14. > :25:20.Start with the Afrikaner warders, persuade them they have nothing to

:25:21. > :25:26.fear when fundamental, political change takes place in the country.

:25:27. > :25:32.He would speak to them in Afrikaans, he registered as a

:25:33. > :25:39.student of Afrikaans with the University by correspondence. And he

:25:40. > :25:44.at Chile discussed their personal problems. He was a lawyer, if they

:25:45. > :25:51.wanted some advice he would help them with their problems. He spoke

:25:52. > :25:55.to them in Afrikaans. The Brigadier in charge of the political prisoners

:25:56. > :26:02.in Pretoria actually saw through what Nelson Mandela was busily doing

:26:03. > :26:08.in jail. And when he came and wanted to speak to him, Nelson spoke to him

:26:09. > :26:15.in Afrikaans. He stopped him and he said, " your accent is terrible,

:26:16. > :26:30.speak to me in English". And he won them over. He was, as has been said,

:26:31. > :26:46.the leader. But one thing about Nelson Mandela is, he never said "I"

:26:47. > :26:53., he always said "we" . I talked to him about the use of

:26:54. > :26:58.violence, turning to violence, and he did say it was a decision he

:26:59. > :27:06.first took and presented to the ANC and won them over to it. He was not

:27:07. > :27:11.alone. I don't know this specific statements, but I was party to it

:27:12. > :27:22.because I was sharing Chambers with the first member of the bar and

:27:23. > :27:28.meetings took place with my office. It was a controversial decision for

:27:29. > :27:38.the ANC, wasn't it? Against the principles? Yes, there was a

:27:39. > :27:46.document which started off the time to meet violence with violence. It

:27:47. > :27:56.was something they have two persuade people about. Especially the chief,

:27:57. > :28:02.because he had won the peace prize. Nelson never took a decision on his

:28:03. > :28:09.own. But he would instigate ideas? Yes, because when he came back from

:28:10. > :28:18.his travels in Africa and to the United Kingdom, he actually was

:28:19. > :28:30.persuaded, particularly by the newly liberated African states, like

:28:31. > :28:35.Algeria for instance that unless they go over to violence, the enemy

:28:36. > :28:41.will win. We have been hearing about the ANC and the African National

:28:42. > :28:45.Congress led by with Nelson Mandela, you never joined the ANC, Steve Biko

:28:46. > :28:51.never joined the ANC. What was it about this movement that George has

:28:52. > :28:57.just said, combined white people, Indians, coloured people and

:28:58. > :29:02.Africans, what was it that stopped people like you joining in and

:29:03. > :29:07.saying instead, we have got this other thing, it is called back

:29:08. > :29:13.consciousness, a different approach. In what way way you different in the

:29:14. > :29:17.way you saw apartheid, or in the way you saw dealing with the Nationalist

:29:18. > :29:23.government? When we started being activists, the ANC and many of those

:29:24. > :29:28.liberation movements were banned. You had to make a choice. You going

:29:29. > :29:37.to operate above board or underground? We chose to operate

:29:38. > :29:41.above board. We saw the fear and paralysis that had gripped South

:29:42. > :29:48.Africans. We were determined the fear comes from a sense of

:29:49. > :29:58.inferiority. How else can you explain a majority being calmed by

:29:59. > :30:05.search a tiny minority. The fact of the matter is, when people lost the

:30:06. > :30:14.fear of their oppressor, they wanted to take oppressors on with stones,

:30:15. > :30:21.the whole range of mass protests and action. So, we were not voting

:30:22. > :30:30.against the ANC, we were voting for a new approach, which was if you

:30:31. > :30:33.free the mind of the oppressor and the oppressed from the control of

:30:34. > :30:41.the oppressor, in this case the issue of identity. We were the first

:30:42. > :30:49.organisation that pulled together, not people as Africans, coloureds

:30:50. > :30:53.and Indians, but we encouraged South Africans who were being

:30:54. > :31:00.discriminated against to think of themselves as a solid majority

:31:01. > :31:05.block, that by insisting on freeing their minds from inferiority

:31:06. > :31:13.complex, freed white people from the superiority complex. Did you have

:31:14. > :31:18.white people in consciousness? They had many white supporters? The fact

:31:19. > :31:21.of the matter is our organisation was a young organisation that

:31:22. > :31:27.acknowledged the figure. You had to start by freeing the mind of those

:31:28. > :31:33.who lead the struggle. To call yourself a nonwhite, and say you are

:31:34. > :31:38.a liberation actor was a bit of a contradiction in terms. We will come

:31:39. > :31:44.back in a moment. Let as talk about the ANC and where things stand now.

:31:45. > :31:48.Sorry if my voice, it is the dry air of Pretoria it is getting to me, I

:31:49. > :31:52.think, maybe it is the heat in the studio! We have been talking about

:31:53. > :31:57.the prison years, let's just hear from Nelson Mandela himself talking

:31:58. > :32:05.about his prison years. This was an interview I did with him in 2002, I

:32:06. > :32:10.think. When young people say to you, what

:32:11. > :32:17.was it like to be in jail for 27 years, what do you say to them? How

:32:18. > :32:28.do you explain? Well, firstly it is difficult for me to imagine that I

:32:29. > :32:37.was in jail for 27 years. It looked like it was very fast. Fast? Very

:32:38. > :32:52.fast, because we were a jolly group of people. We met comrades who were

:32:53. > :32:58.widely travelled, like Neville Alexander, who qualified in

:32:59. > :33:03.Frankfurt. Sorry to interrupt you, even the closest of friends don't

:33:04. > :33:10.want to spend 27 years together? Well, if you mix with such a crowd

:33:11. > :33:15.that we mixed with, you wouldn't feel the length of time so much. Are

:33:16. > :33:22.you really saying 27 years doesn't seem a long time to you? No. From

:33:23. > :33:29.the point of view of the years, if you add them, it was a long time.

:33:30. > :33:35.But we became a happy crowd, especially because our group were in

:33:36. > :33:42.single cells, and you get an opportunity which you did not get

:33:43. > :33:47.outside to sit down and think. It is only when I was in jail that I

:33:48. > :33:51.discovered that sitting down to think is an important part of your

:33:52. > :34:03.political programme. It makes it sound like a monk! No. But to look

:34:04. > :34:08.back on the period that we have covered and to see the mistakes that

:34:09. > :34:14.you committed, sometimes when you are convinced that you did not

:34:15. > :34:20.behave like a human being, people who be fended you when you arrived

:34:21. > :34:23.-- we friended you when you arrived in Johannesburg, when you knew

:34:24. > :34:28.nobody, when you were poor, once you became a lawyer and some measure of

:34:29. > :34:36.attention was focussed on you, you forgot them. You became arrogant?

:34:37. > :34:42.Yes. You forgot them and I became very sorry to think of that. But I

:34:43. > :34:47.became sorry because I had an opportunity to sit down and think. I

:34:48. > :34:51.can see in 27 years you might learn that wisdom, but when you first went

:34:52. > :34:55.to jail surely you felt something different, didn't you? You didn't

:34:56. > :35:02.immediately feel now I have a chance to think? When the fight between

:35:03. > :35:12.ourselves and the warders took place as well on the island. Because the

:35:13. > :35:22.are four of us and I walked behind and two in front, I was behind with

:35:23. > :35:31.all the members of the Communist Party. Then they wanted us to walk,

:35:32. > :35:39.they wanted to humiliate us. When they said we should move, they say

:35:40. > :35:44."huk", which they say to cattle. To drive the cattle along? So we then

:35:45. > :35:49.started, they stopped us, and said look this is not Pretoria, this is

:35:50. > :35:55.Robben Island, you must carry out our instructions. So I said to

:35:56. > :36:01.Terfel, the former member of the Communist Party, let's go in front,

:36:02. > :36:08.we went in front. And we walked even slower, they stopped us, we said you

:36:09. > :36:12.are wasting your time. This is your way of moving. You were stubborn

:36:13. > :36:19.really from the start? It is not stubbornness, it is a question of

:36:20. > :36:25.fighting. The idea to humiliate us, we had to fight that. Otherwise we

:36:26. > :36:31.co-operated with authorities. You weren't a patient man were you, you

:36:32. > :36:40.were a head strong man, how did you work out how to do this? Well as a

:36:41. > :36:50.young man, it is true, as a young and inexperienced person I was

:36:51. > :36:54.headstrong, but being in jail put a different character to you,

:36:55. > :36:59.precisely because you had the opportunity to sit down and think

:37:00. > :37:05.and to plan your future. And you realised, by the way, let me tell

:37:06. > :37:13.you, that when I was now practising as an attorney I changed most of my

:37:14. > :37:21.approach towards the rulers of the country because we had the past

:37:22. > :37:31.system. If a person did not stay in a place for 15 years or failed to

:37:32. > :37:42.work for one employer for ten years, even if he failed for a month he

:37:43. > :37:49.could be chased out. You knew that you couldn't do anything, but I

:37:50. > :37:56.would go to the top officer and say to him I'm approaching you as a

:37:57. > :38:01.person, this man has stayed here for 14 years, he has got a house, he has

:38:02. > :38:06.a wife, he has got children at school. You are sending him to place

:38:07. > :38:13.where he has never been, because they would ask him, where were you

:38:14. > :38:18.born? And the man says I was born in burg, what about your father, where

:38:19. > :38:22.was he born, he was born in Freiburg, within 72 hours he must go

:38:23. > :38:28.back to Freiburg. Are you saying you had respect for that ruling Afrikana

:38:29. > :38:33.class because of being a lawyer? No. When people help you in

:38:34. > :38:40.difficulties, you have no alternative but to respect them. And

:38:41. > :38:54.I found that the Afrikanas, their at that time tout was not homo --

:38:55. > :38:58.attitude was not homgenous, that they acted as part of a bigger

:38:59. > :39:03.group, but in individual capacities they did exactly the opposite.

:39:04. > :39:08.Because that officer you would go to say and say I'm coming to you as a

:39:09. > :39:17.Christian, here is a man who is being sent to place he has never

:39:18. > :39:20.been, he would say me the papers and phones and cancels and gives the

:39:21. > :39:24.fellow permission to work. You must be grateful towards people like

:39:25. > :39:28.that. In prison, I'm really wanting to talk today about the prison more

:39:29. > :39:40.than before. Were you ever scared? Scared? Yes. Well this is sometimes

:39:41. > :39:48.a question of philosophy. I was scared many times. The day we

:39:49. > :39:55.arrived in prison, two officers came and they were coming in order to

:39:56. > :40:04.give us what is called a "carry on". In order to ill-treat us. To beat

:40:05. > :40:14.us. To the captain says to one of us, "why is your hair so long? "

:40:15. > :40:22.Like this boy, pointing at me. So I said, look here, I couldn't finish,

:40:23. > :40:28.he then rushed towards me, I was frightened, I was trembling, but I

:40:29. > :40:34.pretended as if I was brave. And I said, you touch me and I will take

:40:35. > :40:38.you to the highest court in the land, by the time I've finished with

:40:39. > :40:45.you, you will be as poor as a church mouse. He stopped! But I was

:40:46. > :40:53.frightened as he was rushing towards me. But we have a duty which

:40:54. > :41:02.sometimes makes you more brave than you are. This is the bluff I made!

:41:03. > :41:09.And that frightened him. And of course when you have been frightened

:41:10. > :41:15.and somebody notices and withdraws then you become even more arrogant,

:41:16. > :41:24.and from that moment I was arrogant. But I was covering my fear. I was

:41:25. > :41:33.afraid. Those moments happened many times in prison. But you see

:41:34. > :41:42.intimidation, there was a great deal of it, but it also depends on how

:41:43. > :41:54.you behave. If you fight right from the first day and send out the

:41:55. > :41:59.message that "I am my own master, I am Captain of my soul", that is the

:42:00. > :42:04.impression that you are going to give. Your enemies are going to be

:42:05. > :42:09.influenced by that attitude. You were never hit, were you? No, no.

:42:10. > :42:16.Why not, they hit everybody else, they hit all the youngsters who came

:42:17. > :42:22.in? Yes I know. I was never hit myself, but there were things which

:42:23. > :42:32.were more painful than the physical blow. They beat up a chap and he was

:42:33. > :42:37.swollen, and I took him to the head of the prison and I said, I have

:42:38. > :42:48.come to lodge a complaint, he was beaten by a warder so-and-so. The

:42:49. > :42:55.officer took down notes and I left, four or five days there after they

:42:56. > :42:59.called me back. You came here and complained that somebody was hit,

:43:00. > :43:07.who was it? So I said but you know very well. I brought him to you. You

:43:08. > :43:12.took down notes. He says, no. Was it so-and-so, I said I can't remember

:43:13. > :43:19.his name. He then called the chap who was in another room. And the

:43:20. > :43:28.fellow came forward now the swelling had disappeared, Mandela says you

:43:29. > :43:33.were hit by a warder. No, I was never hit. But why must he say you

:43:34. > :43:40.were hit, and he said I was telling lies. Now that was very painful. For

:43:41. > :43:45.me to take somebody with marks like they were assaulted, then he comes

:43:46. > :43:54.up and just says no I was never assaulted. Do you know what they

:43:55. > :44:00.did, they used to give us one dish of meal with beans, they decided to

:44:01. > :44:04.give him two dishes that was enough to bribe him. Those things I had no

:44:05. > :44:08.so many experiences of that nature. Why did they never physically

:44:09. > :44:12.assault you, did they see you as somebody set apart, as a kind of

:44:13. > :44:17."leader" from the start that they had to look after in a way? No, I

:44:18. > :44:29.was a lawyer outside and everybody knew. I fought discrimination

:44:30. > :44:36.outside. As a prisoner I was visited by top officials, locally and from

:44:37. > :44:44.overseas. Cabinet ministers used to visit me. Not at the start? No,

:44:45. > :44:51.cabinet ministers used to visit me right from the start. Kruger, one of

:44:52. > :44:57.the most notorious visited me before I finished a year. Did you ever

:44:58. > :45:07.think they might try to kill you in jail? Well, there was that, as you

:45:08. > :45:15.know, there was a plan to kill me. I only read it after I had come out.

:45:16. > :45:25.There was a plan, the plan was they are going to get somebody going to

:45:26. > :45:36.get somebody to sayer going to escape. But when I left on the

:45:37. > :45:42.island because I was escaping from justice they would kill me. Did you

:45:43. > :45:46.think you would be poisoned or shot or do something to wipe you out, or

:45:47. > :45:54.was it not a fear for you? That was never my fear. My fear was purely a

:45:55. > :45:58.plan to kill me by pretending that I was run ago I way from prison. --

:45:59. > :46:08.running away from prison. That was my fear. I turned down a lot of

:46:09. > :46:15.offers. Some of them made my fellow prisoner, they were genuine, you

:46:16. > :46:21.know Eddie Daniel, a member of the liberal party was thinking of those

:46:22. > :46:24.plans, that look, you are needed outside. He was genuinely and my

:46:25. > :46:34.best friend, he is still my best friend. But I feared that although

:46:35. > :46:38.he himself was genuine, if we tried, there were others around the island,

:46:39. > :46:51.if for example they sent a helicopter to pick me up, it would

:46:52. > :46:56.immediately be caught. That was Nelson Mandela talking about his

:46:57. > :47:01.prison years. We might have more later on about when he came out of

:47:02. > :47:08.risen. You have-nots seen that before? I have not seen that, but I

:47:09. > :47:14.did have discussions. I saw him every couple of months. Winnie was

:47:15. > :47:21.very inventive in finding reasons why I should visit her husband. To

:47:22. > :47:28.get guidance as to which school the children should go to. You reused as

:47:29. > :47:35.an intermediary? I was the lawyer appointed by Nelson. They were

:47:36. > :47:43.entitled to appoint a lawyer. I saw him fairly regularly. As time went

:47:44. > :47:52.on, I became a messenger between him and Oliver Tambo. But carrying

:47:53. > :48:02.messages very discreetly, presumably? Were you overheard on

:48:03. > :48:07.Robben Island? For certain. You spoke in a code? We had a way of

:48:08. > :48:15.communicating. We would have a sheet of paper and we would have keywords.

:48:16. > :48:23.We would point to a word. He would say, " it is OK, you can do that".

:48:24. > :48:33.The other thing was, I was there for the day. He invariably never said

:48:34. > :48:42.this is my view, we will have two break at lunchtime and I have two

:48:43. > :48:50.consoles Walter Sisulu and get his opinion on the issue you want to

:48:51. > :49:03.carry out of here. This is why I say, the word "I" was common. We are

:49:04. > :49:14.joined by the leader of the Freedom party. Just tell us your feelings

:49:15. > :49:18.about Nelson Mandela. You had moments when you are very close and

:49:19. > :49:26.moments when you were less close, over the years? Apart from anything

:49:27. > :49:39.else, apart from the fact I was a member of the ANC, we were also

:49:40. > :49:46.personal friends, in fact to the end of his life. Both of us went through

:49:47. > :49:53.a lot of pain when some people tried to drive a wedge between us. The

:49:54. > :50:00.rapture that took place between the ANC and the Encarta, took place in

:50:01. > :50:05.London in 1979 when Oliver Tambo invited me to the delegation to talk

:50:06. > :50:09.about the issue of the armed struggles and the sanctions. I

:50:10. > :50:15.remember there was a time you are not speaking to each other, or the

:50:16. > :50:22.ANC and you were not speaking to each other? Yes, I was coming to

:50:23. > :50:30.that. You could not embrace any of those policies. But there was

:50:31. > :50:37.nothing acrimonious about it. We were supposed to get in touch, but

:50:38. > :50:42.it did not happen. But during all of the time, that you medication

:50:43. > :50:52.between me and Madiba was never disrupted. To the extent, in 1989

:50:53. > :50:59.when the tragic conflict cost 20,000 lives, he wrote me a letter and he

:51:00. > :51:07.said as soon as I am released, the two of us must meet to address this

:51:08. > :51:14.violence. As you know, nobody campaigned for his release more than

:51:15. > :51:20.myself. To the extent FW de Klerk, in 1990 when he announced his

:51:21. > :51:27.release, my name was the only one mentioned of someone who helped him

:51:28. > :51:33.reach a decision. When he came out, Madiba phoned me about meeting, but

:51:34. > :51:38.it just did not happen. In Johannesburg, some of the tradition

:51:39. > :51:45.leaders said to me, how come you have not met up to now. Madiba said,

:51:46. > :51:50.in fact the leader of the UDF and ANC almost throttled me and said,

:51:51. > :51:59.under no circumstances must you meet that man. So we were not to meet

:52:00. > :52:03.until the 29th of January, 1991, which was almost a year after his

:52:04. > :52:09.release. It was very painful for both of us. There was nothing

:52:10. > :52:14.between us. The warmth and friendship had not been spoiled. Did

:52:15. > :52:19.you despair at any time during the terrible period when there was that

:52:20. > :52:24.fighting and the hostilities in Soweto where 20,000 people were

:52:25. > :52:27.killed? Did you think this country would fall apart, it would not

:52:28. > :52:35.achieve what it did achieve in the end, which is a one man, one-vote

:52:36. > :52:42.democracy? I was very worried about it. Let me pick up the story when we

:52:43. > :52:49.met a delegation of the ANC and a delegation from the Encarta. We

:52:50. > :53:00.decided that Madiba and I would address joint rallies of the ANC

:53:01. > :53:09.members. A few days after that I was invited to go and talk. It was an

:53:10. > :53:20.opportunity. But I was told he was no longer coming. So I phoned him.

:53:21. > :53:31.He said a member of the ANC had brought him to Johannesburg's office

:53:32. > :53:39.of the ANC, and past leaders of the ANC from my province told him not to

:53:40. > :53:42.go there. So in the meantime, the violence escalated, people were

:53:43. > :53:47.killed and so on. Both of us were ambushed. When Madiba and I were

:53:48. > :53:57.ambushed, there were several meetings. Religious leaders, Bishop

:53:58. > :54:06.Desmond Tutu and so on, they tried to address this by lens. It was not

:54:07. > :54:19.to be. -- violence. Many people died, you see. This issue is

:54:20. > :54:28.misunderstood as an ethnic issue. But it was wrong. It was said the

:54:29. > :54:36.Zulus were full of nonsense. The Zulus were what? Full of nonsense.

:54:37. > :54:45.But this was a popular phrase at the time? What is your abiding memory of

:54:46. > :54:51.Madiba? How do you remember him today when people are going past his

:54:52. > :54:56.coffin behind us? Madiba will remain to me, a role model, he will remain

:54:57. > :55:05.to me and at the Tom of what reconciliation is about. Also, he is

:55:06. > :55:11.what forgiveness is about. In my case, the media tried to portray we

:55:12. > :55:19.were enemies. We were never enemies. He and any particular

:55:20. > :55:24.individual were never enemies. The institution prescribed any party

:55:25. > :55:32.that got more than 10% in the vote would have a seat. He gladly offered

:55:33. > :55:39.me a seat in the Cabinet as his Minister of home affairs. But not

:55:40. > :55:50.only that, it did not mean to say things were OK, but he went further

:55:51. > :55:58.and appointed me as African president when he and Tae Bo Mbeki

:55:59. > :56:02.were not there. You can see the extent to which we trusted each

:56:03. > :56:11.other. Can we talk about the ANC as it is now? You were very sceptical

:56:12. > :56:17.about the way in the last 20 years the ANC has turned out as a

:56:18. > :56:24.government of South Africa? Indeed. First of all, let me save the

:56:25. > :56:28.lessons of Madiba, the practice he pursued when he became president,

:56:29. > :56:37.take for instance the issue of respect for the law. Respect for the

:56:38. > :56:46.judiciary. As head of state, when at some stage they wanted him to come

:56:47. > :56:51.before the courts and give evidence, something has always been imparted

:56:52. > :56:56.to us to say we must respect the three arms of state. He agreed and

:56:57. > :57:04.personally wanted to be subject to cross-examination. Many others said

:57:05. > :57:07.he should refuse. And politicians today who are charged with

:57:08. > :57:14.corruption will not go the full course? One of the things he

:57:15. > :57:18.emphasised is we must always keep a separation between party and state.

:57:19. > :57:23.Today we can see departments of State, their re-sources being used

:57:24. > :57:30.to advance the interests of their party. That part of thing, President

:57:31. > :57:36.Mandela would never have allowed. People talk about a degree of

:57:37. > :57:39.corruption, is there a great deal of corruption among people who have got

:57:40. > :57:45.power and then use it wrongly to make fortunes for themselves and

:57:46. > :57:53.line the nests of their family? It is not a question of what I believe.

:57:54. > :58:03.Day to day, we see the executive, the head of state, Cabinet

:58:04. > :58:07.ministers, even Administration employees, we see how they abuse

:58:08. > :58:14.public resources for themselves. It is reported daily. I think we are

:58:15. > :58:21.saturated with stories, with reports. In effect stealing public

:58:22. > :58:28.money? This is one thing President Mandela would never, ever have

:58:29. > :58:33.allowed. Is there any way out of this? The challenge now is for those

:58:34. > :58:39.who believe in his legacy, who remember the teachings he gave us,

:58:40. > :58:47.to insist we must elect men and women who faithfully will do

:58:48. > :58:52.everything humanely possible, to run the affairs of state as he toured.

:58:53. > :58:59.Respect the constitution, respect and public wee sources and carrying

:59:00. > :59:06.ourselves as men and women who like himself, will always prioritise the

:59:07. > :59:12.people of our country rather than ourselves and our families and

:59:13. > :59:19.friends. Do you share this concern the way the ANC has developed over

:59:20. > :59:27.the past 20 years? Absolutely, I agree 100%. Together, with him we

:59:28. > :59:33.formed a coalition against corruption. Is there a way out?

:59:34. > :59:39.Everybody says there are these complaint against the ANC but they

:59:40. > :59:49.will win the election next year. Yesterday, even the funeral service

:59:50. > :59:54.of Nelson Mandela was sullied by the brewing that took place. It was ANC

:59:55. > :00:03.people building their own president. That speaks for itself. One of the

:00:04. > :00:13.newspapers said they praise Nelson Mandela but buried President Zuma?

:00:14. > :00:19.There is a way out. And the coalition, the corporation of the

:00:20. > :00:24.parties we are putting together, we'll go to the electorate and say

:00:25. > :00:31.to them, President Mandela brought with him from Robben Island, you're

:00:32. > :00:33.right to vote, to put in government people you trust and if they

:00:34. > :00:40.disappoint you, to change and put them out. It is your turn, power is

:00:41. > :00:47.in your hands, Nelson Mandela left it in your hands. You must go to the

:00:48. > :00:51.elections, you must go there and shoes men and women that, in your

:00:52. > :00:57.view, will begin to change the situation and bring in practices in

:00:58. > :01:02.keeping with Nelson Mandela. If you have just joined us on BBC One, we

:01:03. > :01:17.have three distinguished South Africans here. We are talking now

:01:18. > :01:20.about the future of South Africa, which will be going back to, and

:01:21. > :01:23.their experiences over the past 20 years and before that. Let's at this

:01:24. > :01:28.point have a look at what has happened so far today. Don't have

:01:29. > :01:37.very many pictures of it, but we have, I'm glad to say, some. The

:01:38. > :01:43.hearse arrived with Nelson Mandela's coffin draped in the flag of South

:01:44. > :01:48.Africa, led by military escort going over the bumps on the road of the

:01:49. > :01:52.terrace here, at the Union Buildings in Pretoria, on this high hill that

:01:53. > :01:57.looks down over the city of Pretoria itself, that was build for the union

:01:58. > :02:06.of South Africa at the turn of the last century. Escorted by a military

:02:07. > :02:21.guard of honour, who played The National Anthem, and with

:02:22. > :04:41.paul-bearers and with the grandson of Nelson Mandela watching.

:04:42. > :04:47.And George is up there in the Union Buildings, George we haven't even

:04:48. > :04:53.very much activity going up there, what can you see from your better

:04:54. > :04:57.vantage point? Thank you, well what we can see, I was thinking about it

:04:58. > :05:01.just now, it is probably a view that Nelson Mandela himself would have

:05:02. > :05:07.seen. We're just a few paces away from the office he occupied in the

:05:08. > :05:12.west wing of the Union Buildings. This building, by the way, is at the

:05:13. > :05:16.highest point of Pretoria. You do see the whole of the city below me

:05:17. > :05:24.here. And just right here in this amphitheatre, what is being renamed

:05:25. > :05:29.as the Nelson Mandela Amphitheatre, it is just below Union Buildings, in

:05:30. > :05:33.a moment you can see the structure and this is where Nelson Mandela's

:05:34. > :05:37.body is lying in state. The motorcade, the guard of honour

:05:38. > :05:42.brought the body here a little over an hour ago. Just a few moments ago

:05:43. > :05:46.I actually walked away and was able to look into the structure and you

:05:47. > :05:50.saw Nelson Mandela's body there lying in state. You got a powerful

:05:51. > :05:55.sense that after all the activity there has been this week, his body,

:05:56. > :06:01.on its own there, in the structure. And of course a reminder that for so

:06:02. > :06:07.many years in his life he was this very solitary figure. Coming back to

:06:08. > :06:13.events today and this morning, what we are waiting for is actually the

:06:14. > :06:16.family. The family and some official dignitaries are expected to get

:06:17. > :06:21.their chance to spend some time, a few moments of grief perhaps as

:06:22. > :06:25.Nelson Mandela lies in state. After that about midday, the public will

:06:26. > :06:30.be allowed. But the first priority is for the family, as I was saying a

:06:31. > :06:33.little earlier, it is important in a way for the family to get that

:06:34. > :06:38.chance. Because we watched them over the last few days, and they have had

:06:39. > :06:41.to share this moment, their grief, with the public. He was such a

:06:42. > :06:46.public figure, not just here in South Africa, but around the world.

:06:47. > :06:51.So that's what will happen. We're told it could happen in the next

:06:52. > :06:55.couple of hours or so. And the interesting thing is we have seen so

:06:56. > :07:00.many different facets if you like of Nelson Mandela's life this week.

:07:01. > :07:06.Yesterday there was that racaus memorial service in the FNB Stadium

:07:07. > :07:10.in Soweto. That was really about the party. A lot of party leaders and

:07:11. > :07:14.political speech, a lot of foreign dignitaries, today has been a bit

:07:15. > :07:22.more formal. There was the guard of honour, the naval officers standing

:07:23. > :07:33.by as Nelson Mandela lies in state. Then on Sunday there will be the

:07:34. > :07:40.funeral in his home village of country Kunu. There will be the

:07:41. > :07:43.formal person where he took the office of President, that is exactly

:07:44. > :07:46.where he is now, and then the traditional Nelson Mandela, all

:07:47. > :07:51.those things are very important parts of his life.

:07:52. > :07:56.Thank you very much. George will be in Kunu for the funeral and we will

:07:57. > :08:01.be reporting from here both on Saturday and Sunday. But now we go

:08:02. > :08:14.to down town Pretoria, let's hear what's going on the streets. Nelson

:08:15. > :08:17.Mandela has passed and the crowds are continuing to build, and loud

:08:18. > :08:23.cheers as the coffin moved past, there was a massive crowd here and a

:08:24. > :08:27.guard of honour from all South Africa's law enforcement agencies.

:08:28. > :08:31.People were singing and chanting. I don't know if it is helicopters or

:08:32. > :08:35.microphones, we will go back companies we can. Let's pick up

:08:36. > :08:39.where we were talking about the future.

:08:40. > :08:47.You were at the memorial yesterday, you heard the reaction whenever

:08:48. > :08:50.President Zuma's name was mentioned. Do you think that is really

:08:51. > :08:58.significant? George what's your view about the way that politics will go.

:08:59. > :09:02.I know you are par excellence a lawyer but political lawyer as well?

:09:03. > :09:06.Political in the sense that I never became a member of any political

:09:07. > :09:11.organisation because as a member of bar you have to retain your

:09:12. > :09:19.independence, which I have done. But, I was on the ANC's legal and

:09:20. > :09:27.constitutional committee which Nelson Mandela addressed as soon as

:09:28. > :09:33.he came out of prison. And he told us to put together a constitution

:09:34. > :09:45.that is good for everyone in South Africa and not particularly the

:09:46. > :09:52.African National Congress. He sat on the judge's bench when the

:09:53. > :09:59.constitution, the constitutional court was established. He said the

:10:00. > :10:06.last time he was in court was to hear whether he was to live or die

:10:07. > :10:17.and here he was with 11 judges, of a new South Africa. Try and accept

:10:18. > :10:23.this constitution, try and accept that lawful conduct is very

:10:24. > :10:30.important in a democracy. To come to your question about yesterday. I

:10:31. > :10:42.think that the booing of the President was unfortunate. And I

:10:43. > :10:47.think that Mr Amophosa showed quite a lot of intelligence before the

:10:48. > :10:57.President to spoke to try to remember that this was, you know, a

:10:58. > :11:02.function to remember Nelson Mandela. He appealed not for people not to

:11:03. > :11:10.talk and sing. He didn't say not to boo, because I think that he's too

:11:11. > :11:23.clever a politician to be direct! But, but, Nelson Mandela expected

:11:24. > :11:29.all of us in South Africa to have respect for the law, to support the

:11:30. > :11:35.constitution and not to blame the constitution and the courts for the

:11:36. > :11:40.wrongs that have been done and which are being done now. But there are

:11:41. > :11:46.countries in Africa where elections are held which nobody really

:11:47. > :11:52.believes in, where people retain power by corrupt elections, that is

:11:53. > :11:59.not said about South Africa, is it? It is said? It is said about South

:12:00. > :12:04.Africa. You know for instance we have had by-elections recently which

:12:05. > :12:09.have been looked at by an independent commission because of

:12:10. > :12:15.corruption, where people are taking state fund, where people are given

:12:16. > :12:18.food and taken to place where is they don't post votes. Are you

:12:19. > :12:22.saying the general election next year will be an election that can't

:12:23. > :12:27.be relied on for being fairly conducted? Absolutely cannot be

:12:28. > :12:33.relied on. Do you agree with that? I would say that there has been a

:12:34. > :12:37.creeping tendency of rigging by-elections in a number of areas,

:12:38. > :12:43.including some of the areas in the previous elections, and a number of

:12:44. > :12:47.people in the free state and other provinces indicated. They were not

:12:48. > :12:52.such a large scale, but I'm afraid at this time we have seen trends

:12:53. > :12:56.that suggest that a lot of that, like the corruption that has crept

:12:57. > :13:02.into the general administration of the country, I'm afraid that too is

:13:03. > :13:07.a trend that we are likely to experience unless there is very

:13:08. > :13:12.determined efforts to intervene and ensure that we curb it. That spells

:13:13. > :13:18.real trouble if the constitution which George Bizos was decribing

:13:19. > :13:26.fails to deliver free election, doesn't it? I with respect disagree

:13:27. > :13:32.with my fellow citizens. The difference between the countries

:13:33. > :13:37.that you have mentioned where there are, there is great interference

:13:38. > :13:43.with an election and us is that we have a constitution, we have an

:13:44. > :13:50.electoral commission which hearing complaints and whenever a complaint

:13:51. > :13:59.can be substantiated the electoral commission has ordered a repetition

:14:00. > :14:06.of the election. We have the courts that are frequently approached for

:14:07. > :14:13.any irregularities, in Government administration. I don't think that

:14:14. > :14:18.those who would compare us with some of the things that happened in the

:14:19. > :14:23.rest of Africa, they are wrong. They are not based on facts. But the

:14:24. > :14:26.interesting question then is, sorry to interrupt you, but the

:14:27. > :14:30.interesting question then is if, in your view, George Bizos, the

:14:31. > :14:34.elections are fairly conducted why is it that people go on voting for

:14:35. > :14:39.an ANC which we have been talking about here in this studio today as

:14:40. > :14:45.one that has failed to deliver for the poor people of the poorer

:14:46. > :14:49.sections of society, housing, education and jobs. In other words,

:14:50. > :14:59.which in any normal democracy would be thrown out? Well, there is a

:15:00. > :15:04.difference, and it is not unique to South Africa. Liberation movements

:15:05. > :15:10.have gained a reputation throughout the world. How many years did it

:15:11. > :15:17.take for the Congress Party in India to lose an election? Because,

:15:18. > :15:22.because of this aura of the liberation movement. So the aura

:15:23. > :15:32.last, you agree with that I agree with that. It will be continuing to

:15:33. > :15:43.last, take my personal position, I was brought up and my life was

:15:44. > :15:48.influenced by people like Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Thabo Mbeki and the

:15:49. > :16:04.heros of the "revolution", which was, thanks to Nelson Mandela a

:16:05. > :16:10.substantially I would respect the memory of these people who have

:16:11. > :16:17.passed away. It is true that many in the ANC will say we will follow in

:16:18. > :16:23.the of Walter Sisulu and Nelson Mandela and many others.

:16:24. > :16:30.Unfortunately they do not know, or they choose not to obey them. And I

:16:31. > :16:40.remind my political party friends, irrespective of where they come

:16:41. > :16:46.from, that Nelson Mandela gave up one third of his monthly salary for

:16:47. > :16:54.the building of a school. We're not talking about that. He has been

:16:55. > :17:03.sitting here shaking his head as you have been talking, George. What is

:17:04. > :17:07.your view? We have heard this morning, for reasons that have been

:17:08. > :17:14.stated here, with respect, that coming up elections, a delegation

:17:15. > :17:21.from the ANC, there was a delegation from the government and delegations

:17:22. > :17:26.from other parties, and a delegation from the European Union. They came

:17:27. > :17:31.out with the verdict that the election and the ANC said it was

:17:32. > :17:36.free and fair, the government said it was free and fair, my party said

:17:37. > :17:41.it was not free and fair and the European Union said it was not. The

:17:42. > :17:51.chairperson of the electoral commission came out and said it was

:17:52. > :18:02.not free and fair. A friend of mine, his Excellency, said can you say has

:18:03. > :18:07.there ever been a free election? He laughed and said, it is incredible.

:18:08. > :18:18.The last election in Zimbabwe, all these people said was not. We do not

:18:19. > :18:23.know what is going to happen on the ground, with respect. You served in

:18:24. > :18:31.the Cabinet, US secretary of defence, you were at the heart of

:18:32. > :18:34.government. Is it your view of the electorate has what George Bizos was

:18:35. > :18:39.describing, a trust in the institution of the ANC, which means

:18:40. > :18:47.it will be a long time before they are out of office, regardless of

:18:48. > :18:52.what they achieve? When others decided to form the Congress of the

:18:53. > :18:57.people, we were intimately involved in the running of affairs in the

:18:58. > :19:02.ANC. We developed a clear impression, especially when

:19:03. > :19:07.President Zuma took over, that the ANC had deviated from the cause. It

:19:08. > :19:20.had deviated very fast. I want to say this, it was because... The ANC

:19:21. > :19:25.detected resident Zuma and he has not appeared before the courts. Then

:19:26. > :19:32.we said, where is equality before the law in this situation? So this

:19:33. > :19:37.deviation from the promises of democracy made to our people started

:19:38. > :19:49.to set in. Today, nobody can deny it. In the last election, I have

:19:50. > :19:53.personally teaches, people that were heading to voting stations, who made

:19:54. > :19:58.affidavits to the Congress of the People Party say, this is what

:19:59. > :20:02.happened here, this is what happened there. In some provinces, Pollock

:20:03. > :20:18.papers were thrown into the river. They found them there. -- ballot

:20:19. > :20:25.papers. People could say, definitely there is corruption. But I promise

:20:26. > :20:30.you, in the present situation, the by-elections, you see how the ruling

:20:31. > :20:34.party takes food parcels to bribe people. People are intimidated into

:20:35. > :20:40.believing that if they voted for somebody else they would lose their

:20:41. > :20:51.pensions, they would lose their grants, which makes Crescent --

:20:52. > :20:57.democracy -- a mockery of democracy. I am quite certain the mood we saw

:20:58. > :21:10.yesterday in the stadium indicates the mood in this country. In the

:21:11. > :21:19.African communities today, there is a sense of the ANC is not the ANC of

:21:20. > :21:25.Nelson Mandela. You are a very young country in terms of demographics.

:21:26. > :21:30.There is a lot of young people who are called born free, who did not

:21:31. > :21:36.live under apartheid and don't know what it was like to live under

:21:37. > :21:42.apartheid. They will say, you did very well, you did very well with

:21:43. > :21:48.history, but we need education, we need services today. The ANC are not

:21:49. > :21:55.doing these things for us. We need jobs. You cannot feed them history.

:21:56. > :22:03.They say that. It is nothing to do with your ancestors. I said, which

:22:04. > :22:12.ancestors of these who do not want education, which ancestors do not

:22:13. > :22:18.want us to have jobs? If you are not doing good things for us, you cannot

:22:19. > :22:22.be good ancestors for us. Let's return for a moment to the man we

:22:23. > :22:29.are remembering here today in Pretoria with the lying in state in

:22:30. > :22:36.the buildings behind us, the Union Buildings, Nelson Mandela. Just

:22:37. > :22:41.hearing him again, talking about the experience of being in prison. He

:22:42. > :22:46.also talked about why he chose not to retire when he could have

:22:47. > :22:57.retired. This is what he had to say. Why didn't you retire? I have

:22:58. > :23:01.retired. But, as I found out elsewhere, if there is one thing

:23:02. > :23:10.that will kill me, almost immediately, is to wake up in the

:23:11. > :23:19.morning without knowing what to do. The only thing that keeps me going

:23:20. > :23:27.is the fact that I help out in the community, deal daily with questions

:23:28. > :23:38.of poverty, unemployment and the question of health. And those are

:23:39. > :23:47.things which are enriching one's life. Anyone who has that type of

:23:48. > :23:56.programme is bound to be happy. Not withstanding the formidable

:23:57. > :24:07.challenges you are facing, but the fact you are help being men and

:24:08. > :24:09.women of all races with problems of poverty, ill-health, corruption,

:24:10. > :24:17.does give you a feeling of satisfaction. Isn't it the

:24:18. > :24:22.government's job to do that? No, the government is part of the agencies

:24:23. > :24:32.that deal with these problems. As I pointed out on Sunday, we must stop

:24:33. > :24:39.criticising the government. This is our government, it was voted in by

:24:40. > :24:44.us. We must also help them and mobilise the community, to

:24:45. > :24:54.understand what this government is doing. We must also make it clear

:24:55. > :25:01.that the whole who have been liberated do not easily forget the

:25:02. > :25:11.organisation that liberated them. If you look at Namibia, they have now

:25:12. > :25:31.been 11 years in power and support is still going strong. The president

:25:32. > :25:38.of Tanzanian has been in power for four decades because they are

:25:39. > :25:43.grateful for being liberated. That is the position of the ANC. People

:25:44. > :25:51.must know that the people who have been liberated or not as vicious as

:25:52. > :25:56.some of the white parties and so on whose leaders were groomed by the

:25:57. > :26:03.apartheid regime, they are thankful for what has come. It is not

:26:04. > :26:12.surprising, I expected that. And especially now. Who is grateful for

:26:13. > :26:16.what this government has done? The people who have been liberated,

:26:17. > :26:24.Africans. Coloured people and Indians. Quite an important section

:26:25. > :26:31.of the whites, who were not free as long as the majority of the

:26:32. > :26:37.population were not free. Now, we have a president who has done very

:26:38. > :26:44.well, whatever mistakes he may have committed, but in the overall

:26:45. > :26:51.picture as I pointed out in the internal organisations of the ANC,

:26:52. > :26:53.there is no Prime Minister or president in the history of this

:26:54. > :27:01.country, who can boast of having done better than Thabo Mbeki. Are

:27:02. > :27:08.you trying to do things the government cannot do? Now, I am part

:27:09. > :27:17.of the government of the country. I may not hold any position, no power,

:27:18. > :27:25.no influence, but I can address questions of poverty and questions

:27:26. > :27:33.of disease and so on. I can support children, I can go to big and small

:27:34. > :27:38.companies and say I have 300 children who have to go to high

:27:39. > :27:43.school and university. All of them respond marvellously. So, I am happy

:27:44. > :27:51.with the government of the country. Because no country can succeed, if

:27:52. > :28:02.the future leaders are not educated. AIDS has killed more people than was

:28:03. > :28:08.killed by all of the past wars and natural disasters put together. AIDS

:28:09. > :28:14.is a war against humanity. And the only way of fighting it is not just

:28:15. > :28:23.to leave it to the government, it is to mobilise the entire community and

:28:24. > :28:27.big and small businesses and non-government organisations.

:28:28. > :28:37.Everybody who can contribute towards the community, to understand the

:28:38. > :28:47.important question of prevention. That there is no cure for AIDS and

:28:48. > :28:59.it is wrong to stigmatise people... It is all of our duty, not just the

:29:00. > :29:05.government. I have to say in our language, let us forget the past,

:29:06. > :29:15.let's deal with the present and the future. Then the important question

:29:16. > :29:23.of delivery to our people. These are the three things I was concerned

:29:24. > :29:30.with. It was important, David, to marginalise the right-wing because

:29:31. > :29:37.the white minority of this country have one of the most powerful armies

:29:38. > :29:46.in Africa. Many people thought we would solve our problem by

:29:47. > :29:52.organising the military. I led the formation of the liberation Army.

:29:53. > :29:58.And I warned, no, this army were not forming for the purpose of defeating

:29:59. > :30:07.the White Army, it will take us years to defeat them. We want to

:30:08. > :30:15.focus attention on our grievances and also to change the fear of the

:30:16. > :30:20.white man. When our military unit clashed with a unit of the Army and

:30:21. > :30:29.put them into flight, you knock the confidence of the people. You told

:30:30. > :30:33.us before you became President they said Madiba don't talk about AIDS,

:30:34. > :30:36.because you will lose the election, when you won the election was it

:30:37. > :30:42.something the elders or people didn't want you to talk about? No,

:30:43. > :30:48.if you are talking about our people, Africans, they are very conservative

:30:49. > :30:56.on questions of health and of sex. They don't want you to talk about

:30:57. > :31:00.sex. When you are dealing with ingrained habits, which have been

:31:01. > :31:05.there over centuries, you can't remove that within five or ten

:31:06. > :31:18.years. Our people have been conservative. Only last year I went

:31:19. > :31:24.with the CEO of my children's foundation and my children's

:31:25. > :31:30.foundations and the CEO of the foundation. I went to one of the

:31:31. > :31:34.biggest companies in this country, the flagship of South African

:31:35. > :31:38.business and I said you are making a mistake because you are

:31:39. > :31:44.concentrating on your workers in the urban areas, you are not doing

:31:45. > :31:50.anything about workers in the countryside. Give us resources,

:31:51. > :31:55.let's all go to the countryside, mobilise the traditional leaders

:31:56. > :32:00.from village to village. That is how we are going to get people to

:32:01. > :32:07.understand the importance of prevention. And the fact that when

:32:08. > :32:13.you keep quiet you don't subject yourself to examination, you are

:32:14. > :32:18.actually signing your death warrant. Fortunately they agreed to give us

:32:19. > :32:23.resources to that effect. Nelson Mandela talking about why he

:32:24. > :32:27.couldn't retire, didn't retire, and went on fighting, as we know, this

:32:28. > :32:30.campaign on HIV AIDS and on education in this country after he

:32:31. > :32:35.had given up his five years at the presidency. Sitting with me is

:32:36. > :32:40.George Bizos, his lawyer, for many years, we have been rejoined by Dr

:32:41. > :32:45.Mamphela Ramphele, who has a new party, a political party formed that

:32:46. > :32:50.is going to fight the ANC at the next election, and Mosiuoa Lekota,

:32:51. > :32:56.who was secretary for defence in one of these developments. I want to

:32:57. > :33:07.pick up on a point implicit in what Mr Mandela said therepoint implicit

:33:08. > :33:11.in what Mr Mandela said there. People say his presidency missed an

:33:12. > :33:17.opportunity to deal with some social problems, particularly HIV/AIDS,

:33:18. > :33:23.which he turned to with Bill Clinton after he left the presidency. Do you

:33:24. > :33:29.accept that the first five years, as he said, had to be spent making sure

:33:30. > :33:34.violence ended and the Afrikana and English speakers were on board and

:33:35. > :33:38.this prevented him to do some of the things you might expect a president

:33:39. > :33:44.to do? I would agree entirely with that. The issue of stablising

:33:45. > :33:51.society generally by advancing the reconciliation, by ensuring that the

:33:52. > :33:58.administration runs as it should, by making sure that for instance in the

:33:59. > :34:02.provinces the various administrations, those were the very

:34:03. > :34:10.crucial issues to stablise and undermine the tensions bourne of

:34:11. > :34:14.apartheid. Whilst he did try to pay attention to the other issue,

:34:15. > :34:18.suddenly five years was too short a perto address everything. Never the

:34:19. > :34:22.-- a period to address everything. However he did initiate us in the

:34:23. > :34:26.direction of looking at these issues. Even after he left we

:34:27. > :34:33.continued to build on some of the things. Certainly the first term of

:34:34. > :34:36.Thabo Mbeki tried to focus very strongly on the social issues.

:34:37. > :34:43.Unfortunately the AIDS question simply went out of our control. And

:34:44. > :34:49.although we invested a lot of resources in the programme to give

:34:50. > :34:53.people resources and so on, I think the pronouncements by the

:34:54. > :34:56.leadership, some of them were unfortunate and undermined the

:34:57. > :35:01.success of that. There was an argument which I think Mr Mandela

:35:02. > :35:06.used, certainly when he was standing for the presidency, that he was

:35:07. > :35:10.advised by people, not just the elders, I remember him being advised

:35:11. > :35:13.by a school teacher not to talk about anything to do with sex

:35:14. > :35:20.because it would put off people and they wouldn't vote for him if he

:35:21. > :35:24.talked like that because of a conservativism and a natural

:35:25. > :35:29.instinct not to talk about things like that, was that true? My opinion

:35:30. > :35:34.is had it not been for the fact that he felt that the urgent issue of his

:35:35. > :35:38.term was stablising on the political front or so, I don't think he would

:35:39. > :35:43.have shied away from an issue like this and just put it off. Because

:35:44. > :35:48.whenever President Mandela held a view, even if it meant criticising

:35:49. > :35:52.the African National Congress, who were so close to his heart, never

:35:53. > :35:58.hesitated to do that. It was a question of what is most urgent.

:35:59. > :36:05.What is the priority of this term? Dr Mamphela Ramphele, you have seen

:36:06. > :36:10.this at close quarters in clinic, you are a trained medical doctor. Do

:36:11. > :36:18.you think there were wasted years during the Mandela presidency about

:36:19. > :36:24.the HIV/AIDS problem? Mr Mandela im ve axe -- himself acknowledged that

:36:25. > :36:29.it was in fact a mistake that those warning against conservative

:36:30. > :36:34.response didn't bear in mind that at that time, we who had been active as

:36:35. > :36:39.civil society in the health sphere had managed to get people to pay

:36:40. > :36:46.attention to family planning and that was a very good entry point to

:36:47. > :36:52.talk about protecting life that is yet to come and protecting the seed

:36:53. > :36:58.of the nation. And so I believe the big mistake was that there were not

:36:59. > :37:04.enough people in that first Government who were well informed

:37:05. > :37:12.about the situation on the ground in socioeconomic terms. There was also

:37:13. > :37:17.an underestimate of the extent to which apartheid of damaged the

:37:18. > :37:24.psyche of people and the damage in the capacity of people to rise to

:37:25. > :37:30.the challenges of the time. Your idea is it was a very demoralised

:37:31. > :37:38.country for the most part? That the people who didn't have the vote were

:37:39. > :37:42.demoralised in all sorts of other ways as well? People had been

:37:43. > :37:47.demoralised and the mass democratic movement remobilised people. The

:37:48. > :37:51.problem is in that process of mobilising people, human rights

:37:52. > :37:57.violations were tolerated in ways which were unfortunate. So the

:37:58. > :38:01.dignity that started the mass democratic movement of being black

:38:02. > :38:09.and being proud was turned around during the time when the necklace

:38:10. > :38:14.was introduced and abuses of human rights entered the frame. The

:38:15. > :38:18.necklace is burning tyres put around people's neck? A gruesome death, and

:38:19. > :38:27.when you do that to another human being you brutalise yourself. I

:38:28. > :38:35.believe thedy nighal of the Government in the ANC, under

:38:36. > :38:39.President Mbeki was an inferiority complex, having bought into the

:38:40. > :38:42.notion that black people are sex crazed and promiscuous, why would we

:38:43. > :38:48.accept that. We knew we were a dignified people. We knew we were

:38:49. > :38:54.able to face challenges when they came. And so I believe there was a

:38:55. > :38:59.missed opportunity and Mr Mandela publicly apoll guyed to the nation

:39:00. > :39:03.to say sorry. And there was also a missed opportunity with regard to

:39:04. > :39:08.education, which he loved so much, but we didn't transform it in a way

:39:09. > :39:13.that would have put us in a position where leadership would have been

:39:14. > :39:21.flowing like a very strong river. Do you feel this is an undereducated

:39:22. > :39:30.country still? In some respects that is so. But I want to say something

:39:31. > :39:39.about Mr Mandela's belief that it was not for him as an ex-president

:39:40. > :39:46.to really interfere with the manner in which the country was governed. I

:39:47. > :39:51.know that you would say to people that telephoned him and said that

:39:52. > :39:57.the Government is doing this wrong and that wrong and the other wrong.

:39:58. > :40:12.His answer was, please phone my President and tell him about it. And

:40:13. > :40:16.he avoided making statements to guide the country into the sort of

:40:17. > :40:25.egalitarian society that dreamt of and went to jail and was prepared to

:40:26. > :40:31.sacrifice his life for. But on the question of AIDS, because of his

:40:32. > :40:36.personal suffering and he was the one who insisted that the cause of

:40:37. > :40:40.death of his son should be made public and to tell everybody that

:40:41. > :40:47.there was no shame in doing that. And that he could not take it that

:40:48. > :40:55.the Government under Mr Mbeki was not taking the steps, and he

:40:56. > :40:59.intervened to good effect. But he actually would support the decisions

:41:00. > :41:05.of the people that were elected. May I say this... Sorry to interrupt,

:41:06. > :41:13.one member of the family, his daughter. And she's the first member

:41:14. > :41:20.of the family that we have seen apart from the grandson, the officer

:41:21. > :41:25.is talking to her and discovering which way to go and whether she has

:41:26. > :41:28.been in to the place where Nelson Mandela's body is. But any way that

:41:29. > :41:31.is the first member of the family. This is still the period when

:41:32. > :41:39.members of the family have been given an hour or so before the

:41:40. > :41:45.public come in to see the body. When President Obama was talking

:41:46. > :41:49.yesterday, he implicitly did what you are saying Nelson Mandela

:41:50. > :41:56.couldn't do domestically which is to say, to make any comment or

:41:57. > :42:01.complaint. When he spoke in Johannesburg he kind of appeared to

:42:02. > :42:06.draw a lesson from Nelson Mandela's life which he thought should be

:42:07. > :42:09.applied here in South Africa and elsewhere, and by saying what he

:42:10. > :42:14.did, let's just hear it in a moment, by saying what he did some people

:42:15. > :42:23.thought he was actually reminding even President Zuma about the legacy

:42:24. > :42:28.that he should respect. ? This is what President Obama said, Barack

:42:29. > :42:38.Obama speaking yesterday in Johannesburg. And so we too must act

:42:39. > :42:46.on behalf of justice. We too must act on behalf of peace. There are

:42:47. > :42:50.too many people who happily embrace Madiba's legacy of racial

:42:51. > :42:57.reconciliation but passionately resist even modest reforms that

:42:58. > :43:01.would challenge chronic poverty and growing inequality. There are too

:43:02. > :43:05.many leaders who claim solidarity with Madiba's struggle for freedom

:43:06. > :43:20.but do not tolerate dissent from their own people. And there are too

:43:21. > :43:25.many of us, too many of us on the sidelines comfortable and in

:43:26. > :43:34.complacency or cynicism when our voices must be heard. The questions

:43:35. > :43:40.we face today, how to promote equality and justice, how to uphold

:43:41. > :43:46.freedom and human rights, how to end conflict and sectarian war, these

:43:47. > :43:53.things do not have easy answers. But there were no easy answers in front

:43:54. > :44:00.of that child born in World War I. Nelson Mandela reminds us that it

:44:01. > :44:06.always seems impossible until it is done. South Africa shows that is

:44:07. > :44:12.true. South Africa shows we can change. That we can choose a world

:44:13. > :44:18.defined, not by our differences but by our common hopes. We can choose a

:44:19. > :44:29.world defined, not by conflict but by peace and justice and

:44:30. > :44:37.opportunity. They will never see the likes of Nelson Mandela again. But

:44:38. > :44:50.let me say to the young people of Africa and the young people around

:44:51. > :44:55.the world, you too can make his life's work his own. 30 years ago,

:44:56. > :44:59.while still a student I learned of Nelson Mandela and the struggles

:45:00. > :45:07.taking place in this boutful land. And it stirred something in me. It

:45:08. > :45:14.woke me up to my responsibility, to others and to myself, and it set me

:45:15. > :45:23.on an improbable journey that finds me here today. And while I will

:45:24. > :45:32.always fall short of Madiba's example, he makes me want to be a

:45:33. > :45:38.better man. He speaks to what's best inside us. After this great

:45:39. > :45:43.liberator is laid to rest and when we have returned to our cities and

:45:44. > :45:56.villages and rejoined our daily routines, let us search for his

:45:57. > :45:58.strength. Let us edge for his largeness of spirit, somewhere

:45:59. > :46:04.inside of ourselves. And when the night grows dark, when injustice

:46:05. > :46:11.weighs heavy on our hearts, when our best laid plans seem beyond our

:46:12. > :46:16.reach, let us think of Madiba. And the words that brought him comfort

:46:17. > :46:25.within the four walls of his cell, "it matters not how straight the

:46:26. > :46:34.gate, how charged the punishment, the scroll, I am the master of my

:46:35. > :46:39.fate, I am the captain of my soul". What magnificent soul it was. We

:46:40. > :46:44.will miss him deeply. May God bless the memory of Nelson Mandela, may

:46:45. > :47:05.God bless the people of South Africa. Barrack Obama speaking

:47:06. > :47:08.yesterday. Our correspondent is down in the streets of Pretoria when

:47:09. > :47:13.Nelson Mandela's body has been taken to the Union Buildings, where it is

:47:14. > :47:21.lying in state. A few hours ago there were emotional

:47:22. > :47:27.scenes on the streets of Pretoria when his coffin moved past any

:47:28. > :47:32.massive convoy. There was a guard of honour from all of South Africa's

:47:33. > :47:38.law enforcement agencies. People were singing and chanting...

:47:39. > :47:46.I am sorry about that, it is our second attempt to reach her. I don't

:47:47. > :47:56.know what is going on down there, but she is talking to people. Maybe

:47:57. > :48:04.we can rejoin her now? Everyone here is going freely. Do you think Nelson

:48:05. > :48:09.Mandela's death has unified South Africa?

:48:10. > :48:14.The terrible thing is, she is talking away and every time we go to

:48:15. > :48:23.her it seems to freeze the picture some reason. We cannot do anything

:48:24. > :48:30.about it for the moment. We are rejoined by the Professor who knows

:48:31. > :48:35.all of the procedures here. What is going on with the family and what is

:48:36. > :48:41.going to happen in the days ahead? We have three days of lying in state

:48:42. > :48:49.and then two days leading to the burial in Qunu? The two days ahead

:48:50. > :48:56.of us might be given to the family. Remember, with this culture, there

:48:57. > :49:02.are some rituals that need to be conduct did before the great man is

:49:03. > :49:15.buried. And especially that President Mandela was also a chief,

:49:16. > :49:21.so the nation might want to play a role in the burial of Nelson

:49:22. > :49:28.Mandela. Which means from now, moving toward Sunday, there might be

:49:29. > :49:35.activities within the family. How can I put this? It seems the body

:49:36. > :49:39.seems to belong at one point to the family, and at another point to the

:49:40. > :49:49.state, then they handed back to the family. This is a state occasion we

:49:50. > :49:52.are seeing now? Yes, I think on Sunday we might see much of the

:49:53. > :50:01.state are playing a role. That is why I assume before Sunday, the

:50:02. > :50:05.family will have time to practice what ever they want to do with the

:50:06. > :50:11.body. What form will Sunday take? That is the climax, ending in the

:50:12. > :50:23.burial, what form will that even take? That event might take a form

:50:24. > :50:32.of number one, where the ANC and the state might play a major role.

:50:33. > :50:37.Because, the funeral is conducted by the state, basically. At the family

:50:38. > :50:44.members also might be given time to play their role. The instance, if

:50:45. > :50:48.you have your speakers during that day, there might be people

:50:49. > :50:53.representing the family as well. Over and above those who will be

:50:54. > :51:01.representing the state and possibly the ANC. But the family have been in

:51:02. > :51:05.conflict, one with another, even about where he is to be buried. Is

:51:06. > :51:11.that a matter of Pratt Hakala T and future possibilities of exploiting

:51:12. > :51:15.the place where he is buried or has that got some religious element to

:51:16. > :51:22.it? Or some tribal family element about where he ought to be?

:51:23. > :51:30.President Mandela has a home in Qunu. But he was not born in Qunu?

:51:31. > :51:34.He was not born in Qunu, but he moved to Qunu and he made Qunu the

:51:35. > :51:42.family home. So the burial of President Mandela would be expected

:51:43. > :51:47.to be at Qunu. If you remember, if you months ago, there was this feud

:51:48. > :51:57.about taking the bones of other family members from Qunu. But

:51:58. > :52:03.because Qunu has become the home, everything should be done at Qunu.

:52:04. > :52:09.That there might be some small celebrations elsewhere, but that is

:52:10. > :52:14.because it is part of the tribal nation and some family members are

:52:15. > :52:22.still fair. But the centre of the activities should be at Qunu. George

:52:23. > :52:27.Bizos, you have been a friend of the family through all its problems and

:52:28. > :52:32.divisions, are you dismayed at the public display of conflict you have

:52:33. > :52:41.seen over these last few months? I feel unhappy about the dispute that

:52:42. > :52:51.has been going on for a number of years in the family. It was a matter

:52:52. > :53:05.of concern to Mr Mandela himself. The question of where he was to be

:53:06. > :53:12.buried is a matter on which he expressed a wish contained in his

:53:13. > :53:22.will, which I don't want to speak about until the proper procedure of

:53:23. > :53:35.making it public occurs. But, there is no doubt... Every time I say

:53:36. > :53:46.something, the goes dead. As the professor said, Qunu became his

:53:47. > :53:52.home. This is where he may not have been born, but worked he was brought

:53:53. > :54:05.up by members of the wider family. Where he built his house, after

:54:06. > :54:09.all? Absolutely. He enjoyed Qunu because people did not have to make

:54:10. > :54:18.an appointment to see him. He was absolutely thrilled that members of

:54:19. > :54:23.the family would turn up and knock on the door without an appointment

:54:24. > :54:34.and spend time with him, and they would talk about their young years

:54:35. > :54:41.and what they did as boys. It was a proper home? It was a proper home.

:54:42. > :54:51.It is intriguing that house he built himself at Qunu was based on the

:54:52. > :54:57.house he was imprisoned in, and he said it was because he knew his way

:54:58. > :55:01.around. It was the same as the water's house and he would remember

:55:02. > :55:08.whether kitchen was. It was his last dozen where he was for six months.

:55:09. > :55:14.It wasn't really able risen, he had the key to the front door to keep

:55:15. > :55:21.people out. -- it wasn't really a prison. He would walk along the

:55:22. > :55:34.footpaths and somebody applied for amnesty for putting microphones in

:55:35. > :55:41.the flowerbeds. But Qunu, he was rather, the prison, he actually ran

:55:42. > :55:54.an office. Everybody he wanted to see was ushered through. Some of the

:55:55. > :56:03.ANC were shocked. One of them said they saw this place with a swimming

:56:04. > :56:10.pool, what is going on here? He has over 30 descendants and he hoped

:56:11. > :56:17.they would come and visit him. And young people want a place to swim.

:56:18. > :56:22.Let's talk about the born free, the new generation. Are you an optimist

:56:23. > :56:29.about this country in the sense, I don't know what the age demographic

:56:30. > :56:33.is, but there are many, many more young people in this country than in

:56:34. > :56:39.most other countries, than in the United States and countries in

:56:40. > :56:43.Europe. Children who have been brought up since apartheid vanished.

:56:44. > :56:49.Do you think they will take a different approach to the country

:56:50. > :57:00.and the ANC and its activities? More than 60% of South Africa's

:57:01. > :57:08.population is under 35. So it is a big asset for any country given that

:57:09. > :57:14.Europe is ageing, many countries would love to have the youngest

:57:15. > :57:22.Democratic profile. I am very optimistic. The cars young people

:57:23. > :57:34.are very responsive to any positive intervention. I believe, that if we

:57:35. > :57:39.had a government backed truly cared about human dignity, equality and

:57:40. > :57:47.freedom, we could turn the 4 million young people who are on the streets,

:57:48. > :57:52.not in school, not in training, not in a job, into training for job

:57:53. > :57:59.opportunities. The money is there. This is where honouring Nelson

:58:00. > :58:06.Mandela 's's servant leadership, honouring the man who truly believed

:58:07. > :58:12.in of everybody and believed education and training was the key

:58:13. > :58:17.to the future. I believe this country stands right now at a

:58:18. > :58:23.crossroads. If we choose the kind of government, the kind of leadership

:58:24. > :58:28.that will lead in the spirit of Nelson Mandela, continue his

:58:29. > :58:37.reconciliation pathway, but tackle the economic, structural problems

:58:38. > :58:42.that are keeping is divided that are increasing inequality in our

:58:43. > :58:47.society, we can be a great nation. I am doing what I am doing as leader

:58:48. > :58:54.of a new political party, never having joined any party before,

:58:55. > :59:00.because I believe it is time for a first start and in honour of Nelson

:59:01. > :59:04.Mandela, we can and must do right by the young people of this country.

:59:05. > :59:11.Another helicopter coming over. I wish they would go away. Let's have

:59:12. > :59:17.a look back, while we're waiting for the family to come to the Union

:59:18. > :59:28.Buildings and pay their home edge -- homage to the coffin. We are going

:59:29. > :59:36.to show the family if they do come just after 10am Pretoria time. This

:59:37. > :59:42.was the arrival of the hearse this morning. Very modest, it has to be

:59:43. > :59:47.said. There was talk about a gun carriage and I think a gun carriage

:59:48. > :59:55.will be used on Saturday when the body is taken from here. But this

:59:56. > :00:02.brought Nelson Mandela's coffin draped in the Union flag. His

:00:03. > :00:29.grandson watching and the national anthem played.

:00:30. > :00:36.So rather abbreviated version of what actually happened, here is the

:00:37. > :00:48.family now arriving and members of the Government, the Defence Minister

:00:49. > :00:54.among them. We think this is the moment when the close family and the

:00:55. > :01:03.Government together, apparently, will come and pay homage in the

:01:04. > :01:13.place that has been built here in the amphitheatre of the Union

:01:14. > :01:16.Buildings. Maybe George can help us. George can you see what's going on

:01:17. > :01:43.from your vantage point? Grandchildren and great-grand

:01:44. > :01:47.children, all coming, incidentally you will noticed not dressed in

:01:48. > :01:52.black, the children of course, but also the African custom is not

:01:53. > :01:56.necessarily to wear black ties or put on formal mourning on these

:01:57. > :02:00.occasions. The Prime Minister was here in black tie, the British Prime

:02:01. > :02:05.Minister, but one of the few people wearing a black tie, the dressing in

:02:06. > :02:13.black is not a custom. There is one of the youngest grandchildren going

:02:14. > :02:19.in. 17 grandchildren and 12 great-grand children he had. George

:02:20. > :02:23.is watching from up there now? Yes we have seen those

:02:24. > :02:26.grandchildren, this is man who had 18 grandchildren and I think 12

:02:27. > :02:32.great-grand children. And just before you came, we did see other

:02:33. > :02:41.members, family members coming here. He had a very, very large family. Of

:02:42. > :02:47.course he had three wives and with Graca there were no children there.

:02:48. > :02:53.It is their time to spend a few moments with the body of Nelson

:02:54. > :02:59.Mandela, the man this nation calls Tata. What they have had to do all

:03:00. > :03:03.along this family is to share him. Even when he was in prison it was

:03:04. > :03:07.the world that seemed to own this figure of Nelson Mandela. Once he

:03:08. > :03:10.came out one of the things they have said in public is they didn't really

:03:11. > :03:13.have that much time with Nelson Mandela. So the Government and the

:03:14. > :03:17.people organising this event have been very, very clear that this

:03:18. > :03:21.morning, certainly to midday, will be a time for the family alone, and

:03:22. > :03:28.then the public will be allowed to come through. That is a scene here

:03:29. > :03:31.at Union Buildings. George, thank you very much, there are more people

:03:32. > :03:44.arriving. I don't know if we can show them here. There is a dispute

:03:45. > :03:48.about whether there is 17 or 18 grandchildren. I can't think why,

:03:49. > :03:53.somebody should be able to count them. Do you know how many

:03:54. > :04:11.grandchildren he has George? 18 you say? No 12, or great-grand children.

:04:12. > :04:15.I don't know how the numbers are, I know it is over 30 in all. I bet he

:04:16. > :04:20.couldn't remember all their names, perhaps he could? Not really! It was

:04:21. > :04:25.interesting Graca Machel was very much pushing him towards his family

:04:26. > :04:30.in the later years? She insisted on presiding over a united family. She

:04:31. > :04:36.didn't want to take sides and she still wants to remain neutral in

:04:37. > :04:43.some of the disputes that there are. But you know it is not unusual where

:04:44. > :04:51.you have children from different parents. It is not unusual in some

:04:52. > :04:58.respects. Some of the reasons for the differences go back to the time

:04:59. > :05:07.he was in prison and who had the right to go and visit him and who

:05:08. > :05:11.hadn't, that sort of thing has been there, but one hopes that it will be

:05:12. > :05:16.settled and once and for all. How did he cope with the cruelty of not

:05:17. > :05:20.being able to go to his son's funeral or his mother's funeral.

:05:21. > :05:31.Would that normally have been something that would have been

:05:32. > :05:43.allowed to a prisoner? Our guest has just disappeared up the steps there

:05:44. > :05:49.on the way in. No was -- Was that a cruel and unnatural gesture normally

:05:50. > :05:54.shown? The cruelty shown by the senior prison officers who had their

:05:55. > :06:00.offices in Pretoria and didn't have personal contact with him. They gave

:06:01. > :06:10.orders to the others as to what could be done and what could not be

:06:11. > :06:18.done. The people in Pretoria were indoctrinated apartheid people who

:06:19. > :06:23.were very efficient in the manner in which they could take away the

:06:24. > :06:30.dignity, the human dignity that everyone, including prisoners, are

:06:31. > :06:36.entitled to. Are they going to be now having battles over his legacy

:06:37. > :06:41.in the financial sense, the Mandela Foundation, the various trusts, will

:06:42. > :06:50.it go on as people squabble over who is entitled to what? Well, the

:06:51. > :07:01.directions in the will of Nelson Mandela will be shown to be quite

:07:02. > :07:07.clear, and they are to be managed by independent people of whom I am one.

:07:08. > :07:16.And we will see to it that his will is done. And not the personal

:07:17. > :07:26.interests of one or other members of the family. We can't hear ourselves

:07:27. > :07:30.talk or think with sirens and helicopters whizzing all around all

:07:31. > :07:43.over us. Part of life. It is part of television life, that is the real

:07:44. > :07:49.curse of it! You have talked about the ceremonies, is this legacy a

:07:50. > :07:58.durable one, will it seep through generation after generation? The

:07:59. > :08:09.legacy will go on from generation to generation, depending on how those

:08:10. > :08:14.generations handle it. I presume from generation to generation you

:08:15. > :08:21.don't really, you don't necessarily refer to the family, generations in

:08:22. > :08:30.the family. You mean nationally. If we as the generations that lived

:08:31. > :08:36.after him would always remember and respect him and the role he has

:08:37. > :08:45.played in our society, we might be able to keep the legacy. But if we

:08:46. > :08:53.become reckless about it, then that would be doom on us. Do you think it

:08:54. > :09:04.is durable in that way? The adeals that Nelson Mandela lived for will

:09:05. > :09:11.endure because one of his very great contributions was to

:09:12. > :09:20.institutionalise those ideals in our constitution. What is important is

:09:21. > :09:26.for those who are now committing and recommitting ourselves to honouring

:09:27. > :09:33.his memory and living those ideals is to remember that we shouldn't

:09:34. > :09:42.simply talk about honouring him, but act in a manner that honours him.

:09:43. > :09:53.That is incaps lated in his approach to loweredship which is to serve and

:09:54. > :10:01.to be accountable so that people can feel respected as citizens and

:10:02. > :10:10.therefore empowered to be agents of their own futures. And I think the

:10:11. > :10:22.most important way of making sure that we invest in that enduring

:10:23. > :10:27.spirit is to make sure th every child is educated to his or her full

:10:28. > :10:32.potential, the genius in them is developed so that we can be sure

:10:33. > :10:40.that future generations will see that much further than he saw, than

:10:41. > :10:46.we see and that our great-grand children will be able to see those

:10:47. > :10:52.hills that he described that are not yet visible to us. Thank you very

:10:53. > :10:57.much. Well we're waiting for the Mandela family, the extended family.

:10:58. > :11:00.We were just debating how many grandchildren and great-grand

:11:01. > :11:03.children there were to come forward. And members of the Government. We

:11:04. > :11:06.saw the governor of the reserve bank there a moment ago. And there are

:11:07. > :11:43.other politician, and people who seem to be being held back by the

:11:44. > :11:49.police. These are intimate members. Chris Hani was the leader of the

:11:50. > :11:55.military arm, if you like of the ANC, who was gunned down at a moment

:11:56. > :12:00.during the negotiations before though had been completed, when it

:12:01. > :12:04.was a terrible setback and Nelson Mandela was asked to go on

:12:05. > :12:08.television by SABC and calm the nation. It was one of those moments

:12:09. > :12:13.when people held their breath about whether the negotiations with the

:12:14. > :12:13.ANC would actually, between ANC and nationalist Government would

:12:14. > :12:36.actually work. George we are still waiting for the

:12:37. > :12:41.family to come, are you going to go up today? As soon as we finish

:12:42. > :12:50.today, I have to try to get there. I have a pass. Will you be going to

:12:51. > :12:57.the funeral in country new? Qunu? Yes. We will go there as early as

:12:58. > :13:03.Friday in order to avoid the Sunday morning march. Do you know whether

:13:04. > :13:09.the heads of state are going to be there in force too, or not? Most of

:13:10. > :13:16.them, some of them came for a couple of days. But most of them will be

:13:17. > :13:21.there and they will have pride of place in the ceremony. And there is

:13:22. > :13:27.going to be an orchestra and a choir and it is a big event really? It is

:13:28. > :13:37.a big event and it is on a hill and... On a hill? Well, on a rise

:13:38. > :13:45.of, there is the house and there is the cemetery it is on top of the

:13:46. > :13:50.highest point of the land. They are building an amphitheatre there

:13:51. > :14:01.aren't they for the event? Yes, yes. When did you see Mandela last? For a

:14:02. > :14:07.conversation? Two days before he was hospitalised. He was having lunch,

:14:08. > :14:15.helped by Graca Machel to finish his meal. For about half an hour, and we

:14:16. > :14:23.spoke about various things. I had left my jacket in the car. And when

:14:24. > :14:30.we were saying goodbye he said, George, make sure that you don't

:14:31. > :14:38.leave your jacket behind. That's the last time I spoke to him and when I

:14:39. > :14:52.heard of his condition, critical but stable, which was the slogan given

:14:53. > :15:05.out regularly to the media I knew from Graca that he wasn't really

:15:06. > :15:09.able to communicate fully. And I decided not to go and see him and I

:15:10. > :15:13.lived with that last memory. You judged it right not to try to see

:15:14. > :15:21.him again? Yes, because the doctors were afraid about infection and you

:15:22. > :15:26.had to wear masks, and gloves. And it was a very difficult and there

:15:27. > :15:32.would be no point, because he would not recognise me, I couldn't have a

:15:33. > :15:39.meaningful discussion with him from the information that I had received.

:15:40. > :15:46.And I didn't go. After all these years his last words to you were

:15:47. > :15:55."don't forget your jacket"! Make your you take your jacket with you.

:15:56. > :16:01.And that was always his way, he was concerned about other people his

:16:02. > :16:14.friends, he would want to know how the family was and how our children

:16:15. > :16:23.were and how our grandchildren were. Did you see him in recent weeks or

:16:24. > :16:30.months? I went to visit him at his home on the 31st of August. At that

:16:31. > :16:42.time he was on oxygen and could not really speak. We just sat smiling,

:16:43. > :16:50.holding hands. And that was my goodbye to him and his to me.

:16:51. > :16:55.Because, as a medical doctor I knew that the end was very near. It was a

:16:56. > :17:01.question of when. I did not want to go and see him when he was on a

:17:02. > :17:08.respirator and other things that were happening around his life. I

:17:09. > :17:17.wanted to remember him as the loving, smiling father he had always

:17:18. > :17:24.been to me. He lived a long, long time, a lot further than most of us

:17:25. > :17:31.would have predicted from mid-midwinter here, July last year

:17:32. > :17:40.until last Thursday. He was a tough old bird, wasn't he? Yes, but he

:17:41. > :17:49.also had very, very efficient medical care. I must say, when he

:17:50. > :17:58.became ill in the mid-1980s, the government actually behaved in a

:17:59. > :18:08.humane way. He was transferred from Robben Island onto a very good

:18:09. > :18:15.hospital with very good care. Both medical and nursing care. They did

:18:16. > :18:23.the right thing. Of course, he had both the military dock is and the

:18:24. > :18:32.top of the profession, the medical profession in private practice. --

:18:33. > :18:38.doctors. Let's end on a more cheerful note. You saw his

:18:39. > :18:47.description of himself when he was a young man, the fighter, the Lady's

:18:48. > :18:53.man. Very proud, quite arrogant he said. Quite angry. Then he came out

:18:54. > :18:58.and he seemed to be sweetness and light to everybody. There were

:18:59. > :19:04.moments of stubbornness and fierceness, but you are talking

:19:05. > :19:07.about he would greet anybody, whoever they were, and was

:19:08. > :19:15.absolutely memorable to them because of the way he treated them. It was

:19:16. > :19:25.an extraordinary transformation? Absolutely. I will never forget when

:19:26. > :19:35.we went to Greece together, we went to a place near the Parthenon. They

:19:36. > :19:39.had made arrangements for us to sit in the cafeteria and they put a

:19:40. > :19:46.ribbon a round so when people came on that Sunday afternoon should not

:19:47. > :19:55.be able to go up to Nelson Mandela. The front rows were young children

:19:56. > :19:58.and he asked me to go to the authorities with a pair of scissors

:19:59. > :20:12.and cut the ribbon down and let every child that was there to come

:20:13. > :20:17.and shake his hand. Typical. I think we have now got the family arriving

:20:18. > :20:25.at last at the Union Buildings. A fleet of cars has just arrived here.

:20:26. > :20:30.And the formalities have been carefully observed. The timing of

:20:31. > :20:37.them perhaps has been slightly less predict double. But, as we wait to

:20:38. > :20:42.see whether this is indeed the family coming to pay their respects,

:20:43. > :20:48.let's join George Alagiah up at the Union Buildings.

:20:49. > :20:51.As we have been saying, this is the spot in 1994 when Nelson Mandela

:20:52. > :20:58.took the oath of office. With me is my colleague, he was here that day.

:20:59. > :21:04.I wonder what you are feeling now being at the same place? I was here

:21:05. > :21:10.on the 10th of May in 1994 when he was inaugurated as the first black

:21:11. > :21:15.president of South Africa. That whole structure is almost exactly

:21:16. > :21:21.where he took the oath of office. It was a momentous occasion, it was a

:21:22. > :21:25.time of change and democracy was coming into South Africa. And

:21:26. > :21:31.watching his casket, waiting for the public to come for the lying in

:21:32. > :21:36.state, it brings a lot of emotion and also a time for reflection. I am

:21:37. > :21:42.beginning to think what does this mean for the country? I think it is

:21:43. > :21:47.a time for most people, and I have been listening and reading local

:21:48. > :21:55.media, people are saying it is the time to refresh the page, we knew

:21:56. > :21:59.the violence of Nelson Mandela's reckons the -- reconciliation

:22:00. > :22:03.project. The public will be allowed in, but this is about the family.

:22:04. > :22:11.But it is difficult for the public to get here? Yes indeed. What the

:22:12. > :22:17.government has done to try and avert a stampede or overcrowding and

:22:18. > :22:23.disorder, they have arranged a park and ride system where people go to a

:22:24. > :22:28.specific showground in Pretoria, Park their vehicles, get on the bus

:22:29. > :22:33.and get stamped with indelible ink so they don't come back again and

:22:34. > :22:37.then they get to view Nelson Mandela's body, and then they go

:22:38. > :22:43.back. Sometimes it feels a little bit too organised. Do you think it

:22:44. > :22:46.has lost a lot of the spontaneity people would have wanted when they

:22:47. > :22:52.pay their last respects to this great man? I can sympathise with the

:22:53. > :22:57.government, because nobody could have predicted the numbers of people

:22:58. > :23:02.who will turn up here. If it wasn't this organised, you would have

:23:03. > :23:09.disorder and it could have caused embarrassment. It was a difficult

:23:10. > :23:14.balance. But at the moment it feels it is almost too orderly, if you

:23:15. > :23:27.like if there is anything like that. OK, back to you, David.

:23:28. > :23:35.There are great shouts going on in the street below me. Down here and

:23:36. > :23:42.there is a group of young people singing and chanting and going up.

:23:43. > :23:47.The Union Buildings are up there. They have come I suppose, from the

:23:48. > :23:52.centre of Pretoria. I do not know where they are going to. The

:23:53. > :24:08.minister was there and other people are arriving. We are still waiting

:24:09. > :24:16.for members of the family. The finance minister. The finance

:24:17. > :24:27.minister yes, and his wife. A distinguished figure in government.

:24:28. > :24:32.We are still waiting for the family to come. We don't know how many of

:24:33. > :24:39.them are coming. We don't know what they will do. Most of them will.

:24:40. > :24:44.Yes, until that moment comes, presumably the government, those

:24:45. > :24:50.ministers will not turn up. The family have to be first, don't they?

:24:51. > :25:03.Well, yes. But I think it is both and the state. A mixture of the two?

:25:04. > :25:10.Yes. How do you conduct a good buy in his tribe to a member who has

:25:11. > :25:15.died? Is this part of it or is this to do with Nelson Mandela as state

:25:16. > :25:22.resident, a different world from the world we will see on Saturday and

:25:23. > :25:28.Sunday? I think it will be more different than what we are seeing

:25:29. > :25:37.here now. If you look here, we don't see many people from the tribe. I

:25:38. > :25:42.guess it is because they know they might be having their own

:25:43. > :25:51.opportunity back at home. Maybe in one of the few days ahead of us.

:25:52. > :25:55.George, I don't know if you can see the guests arriving from your

:25:56. > :26:02.vantage point? David, we are seeing people coming

:26:03. > :26:07.in, these official delegations. Perhaps running a little bit late. I

:26:08. > :26:14.have just spotted Nelson Mandela's first finance minister. I still have

:26:15. > :26:19.our South Africa correspondent here. It is difficult for the family isn't

:26:20. > :26:26.it? They have never been allowed to have Nelson Mandela to themselves?

:26:27. > :26:43.Yes, very much. We have just seen one of Nelson Mandela's

:26:44. > :26:56.granddaughters. Zindziswa. She is also the granddaughter of Winnie

:26:57. > :26:59.Mandela. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned the 27 years, then he

:27:00. > :27:04.comes out of prison and becomes president, then he belonged to the

:27:05. > :27:11.people. Children had a special place in his heart didn't they? Indeed, I

:27:12. > :27:18.don't know if you recall when Nelson Mandela arrived on Robben Island,

:27:19. > :27:22.the prison warden who welcomed him, they said to him, welcome to Robben

:27:23. > :27:27.Island, you will never see your wife again, you will never see your

:27:28. > :27:41.family again or a child again. He wanted to be surrounded by children,

:27:42. > :27:45.they were close to his heart. I want to go back to what we were talking

:27:46. > :27:50.about, whether or not it is easy for people to get here. You don't doubt

:27:51. > :27:58.people want to come and pay their last respects do you? There is no

:27:59. > :28:01.doubt. They want to pay their respects to their liberator, the man

:28:02. > :28:05.who liberated them from racial oppression. The system of getting

:28:06. > :28:12.here is organised, it is orderly. But in a way it works against the

:28:13. > :28:19.spontaneity. You don't have the queues we saw in 1994 where people

:28:20. > :28:22.were voting for the very first time. Now people are organised, you can

:28:23. > :28:27.see the amount of helicopters hovering above. This whole thing has

:28:28. > :28:33.been organised by the military, they are in charge? Yes, to make sure

:28:34. > :28:36.there is no disorder, there is no stampede and everything flows very

:28:37. > :28:42.well and it is dignified and memorable. But in trying to avoid

:28:43. > :28:50.mayhem, it is a little bit too orderly, if you like. Also, this is

:28:51. > :28:56.a different occasion to yesterday at the FNB Stadium, it was about the

:28:57. > :29:01.chanting, about the ANC, which he was so loyal to. This is a different

:29:02. > :29:11.atmosphere. We are here in the seat of government? This takes us to the

:29:12. > :29:14.next level. It takes as to when President Zuma announced the death

:29:15. > :29:19.of Nelson Mandela, South Africans poured out into the streets, singing

:29:20. > :29:25.and dancing and celebrating his life. Now we are at the point where

:29:26. > :29:29.the grief is coming to the fore. People are dignified, the way they

:29:30. > :29:36.walk, they are composed and very sombre. Now we are getting to watch

:29:37. > :29:44.the funeral, it is coming to a close as we approach Sunday. We are

:29:45. > :29:50.waiting for close members of the family. I am talking about Winnie

:29:51. > :29:56.Mandela, Graca, his widow. We have not seen them in public that much,

:29:57. > :30:00.we saw them at the Stadium yesterday. It has to be said that

:30:01. > :30:06.pictures were up on the screen. Both women looked grief stricken. You

:30:07. > :30:25.would expect that, but it came as a shock because we have not seen them

:30:26. > :30:29.before? Particularly there is Winnie Mandela, and Graca Machel. They are

:30:30. > :30:35.getting into the stage, the reality is sinking in and all the Jamboree,

:30:36. > :30:41.and the, you know, the people coming in and around them. The whole thing

:30:42. > :30:44.is settling down towards the burial. You can see it is coming through,

:30:45. > :30:48.even through the nation, you know, I have been talking to people who are

:30:49. > :30:52.saying, I cried a little when I was watching this section, and when I

:30:53. > :30:58.heard Mr Barack Obama talking about this, I had a lump in my throat. We

:30:59. > :31:01.are moving away from the dancing and singing.

:31:02. > :31:04.Some people have said to me that because Nelson Mandela had been ill

:31:05. > :31:09.for so long, we are going back a year, but certainly since June, that

:31:10. > :31:13.in some ways today is the day that they are really beginning to

:31:14. > :31:16.understand he's gone. Because they had sort of filtered that through

:31:17. > :31:20.their minds in the fact that he was ill, but now, seeing that coffin

:31:21. > :31:27.being taken through the streets of Pretoria, I heard I think one of our

:31:28. > :31:32.correspondents saying it is finally happened? Yes, and remember George,

:31:33. > :31:36.in June we had that huge period when Mr Mandela was hospitalised and

:31:37. > :31:42.everybody had thought that was the moment of his demise. And of course

:31:43. > :31:49.he lived and he was very strong and he stayed on longer than that. But

:31:50. > :31:52.and people had expected this. But when it actually happened it really

:31:53. > :31:57.hit home and today reinforces that, when you see the coffin driving

:31:58. > :32:01.through, being escorted by the army and the bikes, you know, and the

:32:02. > :32:05.whole escort of the military, it just brings it home. I know people

:32:06. > :32:10.are watching on TV at home here in South Africa. This has been the

:32:11. > :32:13.story every day, 24-hours on radio stations, in the buses and trains,

:32:14. > :32:17.people are talking about this. And we have talked about Nelson

:32:18. > :32:22.Mandela's death, reuniting the nation if you like. There is a sense

:32:23. > :32:26.in which, I hope I'm right in saying this, it has brought the family

:32:27. > :32:29.together again, there is no doubt in the last few months there have been

:32:30. > :32:35.problems within the family and some of it played out sadly in the public

:32:36. > :32:42.domain. But this, you get this sense that they are pulling together. And

:32:43. > :32:45.I think that this perhaps happens in most families where there are

:32:46. > :32:50.squabbles. There are very few families that would especially of

:32:51. > :32:54.this size that would carry on without any days agreements. So --

:32:55. > :33:02.disagreements, so it was interesting to hear Mr Mandela's oldest daughter

:33:03. > :33:06.saying that she called Mandela Mandela, Mr Mandela's grandson to

:33:07. > :33:10.come to the house in Houghton. And the two of them had taken each other

:33:11. > :33:14.to court, they are so far apart in terms of how they want to deal with

:33:15. > :33:20.the family legacy, but because she felt it was time to unite. He,

:33:21. > :33:23.Mandela Mandela came to the party in the sense that there was no

:33:24. > :33:27.rebellion and so on. He went there and they are all embracing each

:33:28. > :33:31.other. It is quite interesting to see that there is some sort of

:33:32. > :33:34.movement of unifying the family at this time.

:33:35. > :33:40.You know we have said this before, but Nelson Mandela's life was a life

:33:41. > :33:54.of contrasts and now you and I are both going to Qunu, the place where

:33:55. > :33:58.he lived, what a difference between all of this and the village where he

:33:59. > :34:02.lived? He has always said at heart's just a country boy. He says when he

:34:03. > :34:08.grew up in the country he used to see that when a big tree falls down,

:34:09. > :34:14.you will see that many other trees start to grow below it. They even

:34:15. > :34:18.grow to be sometimes taller than the old tree. Thank you very much for

:34:19. > :34:23.talking to us up here at the Union Buildings. It is back to you now

:34:24. > :34:28.David. Thank you very much, as a matter of interest George Bizos did

:34:29. > :34:31.Nelson Mandela himself play a part as some statesmen do in the

:34:32. > :34:35.arrangements after their death, the kind of funeral they would have, the

:34:36. > :34:42.lying in state and all of that? It is part of his will. Which you won't

:34:43. > :34:48.tell us about which it has not been read! He discussed it, he decided

:34:49. > :34:53.how he wanted it to be? Yes. What was his emphasis, what was it he

:34:54. > :35:00.wanted to portray? Well I disclose this, he wanted both the state and

:35:01. > :35:08.the African National Congress and particularly the family to

:35:09. > :35:14.communicate with one another and agree how the matter should be dealt

:35:15. > :35:19.with. I think to a very large extent that has come to pass. Did he know

:35:20. > :35:26.in advance what the arrangements would be, ten days? Not in that sort

:35:27. > :35:29.of detail. What was his relationship like, and this is rather a personal

:35:30. > :35:31.question, but I know you will know the answer, I think you will know

:35:32. > :35:38.the answer, what was his relationship like with his former

:35:39. > :35:59.wife and his present wife, Graca Machel? He was very hurt but much

:36:00. > :36:03.credit should go to Graca Machel. She was part of his life after the

:36:04. > :36:10.divorce. And she was cut out of his life. By Nelson? By Nelson himself.

:36:11. > :36:17.But Graca Machel insisted she should be part of the family, and the first

:36:18. > :36:27.birthday party after their marriage she, Graca made sure that whatever

:36:28. > :36:31.reluctance may have been and whatever the past may have been,

:36:32. > :36:39.Winnie had to become part of the family. And they have developed a

:36:40. > :36:48.relationship which some may find strange, a former wife, and the

:36:49. > :36:52.present wife becoming friendly and embracing one another and consulting

:36:53. > :37:02.with one another about members of the family. It is really the

:37:03. > :37:10.magnaminty of spirit of Graca. And Winnie actually came to appreciate

:37:11. > :37:14.that. And they have this joint meetings. Was he still awkward with

:37:15. > :37:18.Winnie, because you say he was very hurt and we endlessly have seen

:37:19. > :37:22.those scenes when he announced his divorce and was obviously deeply

:37:23. > :37:27.upset. Did he establish a sort of relationship with her again. He

:37:28. > :37:35.always said he admired the work she had done? Absolutely. Because and he

:37:36. > :37:41.blames himself, with his family, and the problems of the children that

:37:42. > :37:53.they had with their education. He had some guilt with about it. He was

:37:54. > :38:02.forgiving, he was forgiving political opponents, he wasn't going

:38:03. > :38:07.to hold it against Winnie forever. They were under the same roof on

:38:08. > :38:12.important occasions. It is fascinating story, isn't it, for

:38:13. > :38:18.people love gossip, of course, but here there was a kind of two big

:38:19. > :38:26.personalities, did you know Winnie well? Not all that well. But I knew

:38:27. > :38:36.her before President Mandela came out of prison. She was very active

:38:37. > :38:42.in the Black Women's Forums of those days. We got to know each other, we

:38:43. > :38:49.were both the first to be banished after the European 16th riot. Not

:38:50. > :38:55.riot, please, protest? Protest! And the in fact it was the spark that

:38:56. > :39:05.started the struggle in a very intensive, mass way. And we became

:39:06. > :39:10.much more familiar with each other and developed a relationship to the

:39:11. > :39:16.extent that when I got to Cape Town in the 1980s we used to meet. When

:39:17. > :39:22.Mandela was admitted to the hospital in the gardens I went to see her

:39:23. > :39:26.when she was staying at there. I had a relationship with her, but I

:39:27. > :39:32.couldn't say I knew her well. I think in a moment we're going, let's

:39:33. > :39:35.go to George, we haven't been able to see the family arriving. Partly

:39:36. > :39:45.because the cameras are not showing it in any detail. Only the steps and

:39:46. > :39:51.the balances B allustrade, last moments from you.

:39:52. > :39:57.I have got a advantage point and we haven't seen people like Winnie

:39:58. > :39:59.Mandela or Graca Machel. To remind everybody we are at the Union

:40:00. > :40:06.Buildings, the seat of Government, and Nelson Mandela lying in state at

:40:07. > :40:09.the very spot that in 1994, I just remember those words when he said "a

:40:10. > :40:15.rainbow nation at peace with itself". His life, if you like,

:40:16. > :40:22.since he was freed in 1990 has come full circle, he's lying in state,

:40:23. > :40:26.alone again, his family waiting to pay their last respects. The closer

:40:27. > :40:30.members of course will go to the Eastern Cape which is where he will

:40:31. > :40:34.be finally buried. The Union Buildings here, it is back to you

:40:35. > :40:38.David. George thank you very much, in case

:40:39. > :40:43.you are still waiting to see the family come, we will be showing

:40:44. > :40:48.that, and if it's not here on BBC Two it will be on the news channel

:40:49. > :40:54.later. The news channel will be keeping with this story throughout

:40:55. > :40:59.the day as they do. There will be a kind of pull together of all the

:41:00. > :41:02.events of the day on BBC Two at 7.00 tonight. You will be able to see for

:41:03. > :41:08.an hour then the things that have been going on this first day of

:41:09. > :41:12.three days of lying in state for Nelson Mandela. Well I have had my

:41:13. > :41:23.three guests here, and just before we end a brief word about how you

:41:24. > :41:35.felt about today's events, George? I am saddened, but trying to be stoic

:41:36. > :41:50.about it. None of us is immortal. But we had good and bad days over 65

:41:51. > :41:56.years and various scenes present themselves to my mind and I have to

:41:57. > :42:00.live with it. Thank you very much indeed, that's very touching and I'm

:42:01. > :42:06.grateful to you for coming here and speaking to frankly and openly about

:42:07. > :42:09.a man who you have been so close to and I'm grateful to you for coming

:42:10. > :42:12.and talking about the future of politics of South Africa as you see

:42:13. > :42:18.it and something I think people will be watching with great fascination.

:42:19. > :42:22.And to you, Professor for decribing the events we are going to see in

:42:23. > :42:28.the weekend ahead, of which this is just the precursor, I imagine there

:42:29. > :42:34.are going to be lively scenes when we get to Qunu on Sunday. Just a

:42:35. > :42:40.reminder that the lying in state goes on here for another two days

:42:41. > :42:44.and then there is the moving of the body Qunu and then the funeral on

:42:45. > :42:47.Sunday in Qunu and you can go on watching these events on the news

:42:48. > :42:51.channel now for the rest of the day, I can see some members of the family

:42:52. > :42:56.starting to arrive, but as ever, it is not quite clear yet who has come

:42:57. > :43:00.or when they are coming and whether it will be family first and

:43:01. > :43:02.ministers afterwards as we expect. Switch to the news channel and you

:43:03. > :43:04.can see it, from us