0:00:02 > 0:00:04In Britain today, more than one in five people
0:00:04 > 0:00:07are officially classed as low paid.
0:00:07 > 0:00:12Nearly half of UK workers earn less than £20,000 a year.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15Tonight, 100 people are asking, why our pay is so low,
0:00:15 > 0:00:17who's to blame and will it change?
0:00:17 > 0:00:19So, can Britain have a pay rise?
0:00:33 > 0:00:35- Good evening. I'm James O'Brien. - Hello, I'm Steph McGovern.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Tonight, we're asking, can Britain have a pay rise?
0:00:39 > 0:00:42In our studio, we have 100 people,
0:00:42 > 0:00:45who represent all pay levels in the country.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Clever technology will allow us to see their opinions
0:00:47 > 0:00:49on four big questions.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52Do we work hard enough? Are bosses paid too much?
0:00:52 > 0:00:55Will the Living Wage lead to a pay rise for Britain?
0:00:55 > 0:00:57And what will Brexit do to our wages?
0:00:57 > 0:01:01Our 100 are seated based on how much they earn,
0:01:01 > 0:01:04from the lowest paid, through all of the pay scales,
0:01:04 > 0:01:05up to the highest paid
0:01:05 > 0:01:08and they're represented by the people here.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12Also tonight, we'll be finding out, will the Germans beat the Brits
0:01:12 > 0:01:14in our productivity challenge?
0:01:14 > 0:01:16- ALL:- Three, two, one.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19- WHISTLES BLOW - Take it away!
0:01:19 > 0:01:22We meet the Swedes who work a six-hour day.
0:01:22 > 0:01:23Would that work here?
0:01:23 > 0:01:27People get jealous when they hear about my salary
0:01:27 > 0:01:30and the hours I work.
0:01:30 > 0:01:31And we see how the Living Wage
0:01:31 > 0:01:34has already affected businesses and workers.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36I don't know how we're going to cope,
0:01:36 > 0:01:39because the simple fact is - where do I get the money from?
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Now, if you line everyone up in the country
0:01:43 > 0:01:45based on the amount they earn per hour,
0:01:45 > 0:01:48then pick the person slap-bang in the middle,
0:01:48 > 0:01:51well, everyone earning a third less than that middle person
0:01:51 > 0:01:53is classed as being on low pay.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57And that is 22% of all of our workers.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59That's more than five million of us.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01It might not sound too bad,
0:02:01 > 0:02:04but it is shocking if you think
0:02:04 > 0:02:07France is 6% and in Sweden it's 3%.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09And that 22% figure
0:02:09 > 0:02:12has barely moved in the last 30 years.
0:02:12 > 0:02:14Throughout the boom and bust years,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17around one in five people in our population
0:02:17 > 0:02:20have been stuck on low pay.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22So, the first question we want to ask you
0:02:22 > 0:02:25is whether we are low paid, because...
0:02:25 > 0:02:26we're just not working hard enough?
0:02:26 > 0:02:30Yes, so earlier, we asked our 100 to vote on this question.
0:02:31 > 0:02:32And the results are in.
0:02:33 > 0:02:3613% think we are low-paid,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38because we don't work hard enough.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41That is, of course, compared to 87% who disagree.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46So, let's find out - are British workers to blame for low pay?
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Is anyone prepared to put their hand up in public
0:02:49 > 0:02:51and admit to having pressed that button?
0:02:51 > 0:02:53Up here, here we go. We've got one. There's supposed to be 13.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Where are the other 12? Are they all hiding behind you, sir?
0:02:56 > 0:02:58You know, I think it stems,
0:02:58 > 0:03:02if you take the issue with employment in this country
0:03:02 > 0:03:06and take it all the way back to education, that's where it starts.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10And I don't think work ethics are taught at all
0:03:10 > 0:03:11in our education system.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15And people want hand-out after hand-out after hand-out.
0:03:15 > 0:03:16They want it given to them.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18They want the best working environment
0:03:18 > 0:03:20for the most money that they can get.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22And this isn't about what somebody earns per hour.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26This is about the value that that person gives that business
0:03:26 > 0:03:29- over their employment. - Where are you getting the idea
0:03:29 > 0:03:30everybody's looking for a free lunch?
0:03:30 > 0:03:32No, I think the education system is to blame,
0:03:32 > 0:03:35because people aren't being educated from a very early age,
0:03:35 > 0:03:37in terms of work ethics.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39I heard a "rubbish" over here. MURMURING
0:03:39 > 0:03:41- Let's find her.- Absolute rubbish!
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Now, I work in a school as a teaching assistant.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45I have a first class degree in English.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49I have a Masters degree and I'm studying for a PhD. Right?
0:03:49 > 0:03:51I grew up in a...from a...
0:03:51 > 0:03:55a low-income family, had to leave home very, very early.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58- It's not the Monty Python sketch about who's poorest.- It's not...
0:03:58 > 0:03:59- LAUGHTER - You know?
0:03:59 > 0:04:02And I work in a school on a council estate in Hull.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05And do you know what? Those kids work really hard.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08The problem is that they don't have access to the networks,
0:04:08 > 0:04:12like people who go to Oxford and Cambridge and all that have.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15- APPLAUSE - They cannot...
0:04:15 > 0:04:16There's no point shaking your head.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21They do not have the access to that kind of network.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25It's not always about WHAT you know, it's about WHO you know.
0:04:25 > 0:04:26- MAN:- I would agree with you.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29I think there's a fundamental failing in
0:04:29 > 0:04:30not what the teachers are teaching,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33but what the Government is instructing those teachers to teach
0:04:33 > 0:04:36and the access, therefore, that gets to market.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38APPLAUSE Let's go to Jill Jones.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40Jill, are the times changing?
0:04:40 > 0:04:42Is it a different world that we live in now?
0:04:42 > 0:04:46I think it is. When I was young, my mum...
0:04:46 > 0:04:49it was definitely not unusual for my mum to have two or three jobs.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51But most people,
0:04:51 > 0:04:54certainly younger people, wouldn't do that.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57- I mean, I had... When I was younger...- What do they do instead?
0:04:57 > 0:05:00- What do they do instead, Jill? - I don't know.- Play Xbox!
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Sit and wait for it to come to them a lot of the time.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05And I'm not generalising, I'm not saying everybody does it,
0:05:05 > 0:05:08but there is a certain element of the population that will do it.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11They will sit. They won't go and get cleaning jobs,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14- putting their hands...- There's youths queuing up behind you, Jill.
0:05:14 > 0:05:15- APPLAUSE - I'm sorry, but they won't!
0:05:15 > 0:05:18You won't go and get cleaning jobs. You won't do menial tasks.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20Well, this isn't about me. I run a social enterprise,
0:05:20 > 0:05:22which works with 13 to 19-year-olds.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Going back to it's not what you know, it's who you know,
0:05:25 > 0:05:28we set that up - it's called Network Young - to help them to get those
0:05:28 > 0:05:30networks and meet those people to become inspired, because I think
0:05:30 > 0:05:34people are generalising here. Some young people will wait
0:05:34 > 0:05:37for everything to come to them and some will work as hard as they can.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40Some people in this room will work hard to get what they need.
0:05:40 > 0:05:41So there is a real split.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43What if you're working as hard as you can
0:05:43 > 0:05:45and yet you don't feel you're going anywhere?
0:05:45 > 0:05:48Well, I think we just need to keep encouraging that work ethic
0:05:48 > 0:05:50and showing how it does work. And I firmly believe that
0:05:50 > 0:05:53the harder you work, the better off you'll be,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55not only in pay, but in the rest of your life as well.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58So, it is true that no matter how hard you work,
0:05:58 > 0:06:00things will come back to you in the end.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02Sean, you've done a bunch of jobs since you graduated, haven't you?
0:06:02 > 0:06:04APPLAUSE Do you recognise...?
0:06:04 > 0:06:06Do you recognise what he describes -
0:06:06 > 0:06:08that, if you put in the hours, you put in the graft,
0:06:08 > 0:06:10you will actually change your world, change your life,
0:06:10 > 0:06:12you'll make massive advances?
0:06:12 > 0:06:14Personally, no. No, I found it difficult to get to that point
0:06:14 > 0:06:17where putting in the work will make a difference.
0:06:17 > 0:06:18I've worked a lot of menial jobs -
0:06:18 > 0:06:20telesales, retail, cold calls,
0:06:20 > 0:06:22you know, that kind of thing?
0:06:22 > 0:06:26And I never felt I was actually ever progressing in my life.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28Is that because you weren't working hard enough?
0:06:28 > 0:06:30- No.- Don't shoot the messenger. - I worked as hard as I could
0:06:30 > 0:06:34in those jobs, but in that kind of employment,
0:06:34 > 0:06:36there isn't room to advance.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39- There's very little room.- Tell him what he's doing wrong.- Well, I...
0:06:39 > 0:06:40I actually don't think that
0:06:40 > 0:06:43what you think is a menial job is a menial job.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46Sitting at a desk, answering the telephone,
0:06:46 > 0:06:50is not the same as working in a busy restaurant kitchen,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52up to your armpits in soapsuds and greasy water,
0:06:52 > 0:06:54- or with your hand down a toilet. - By all means, yeah.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56- APPLAUSE - By all means...
0:06:56 > 0:06:59- Most young people don't want to do that.- Yeah...
0:06:59 > 0:07:02- Nobody wants to spend their day in toilet water.- Nobody does, but if you want to eat,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05you want food on the table, especially if you've got kids, you've got to.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07- You can't tar everyone...! - There are different...
0:07:07 > 0:07:10No, exactly. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13..this impression that young people won't do certain things,
0:07:13 > 0:07:14young people will act in a certain way.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17I work in the employability team at a university and everything
0:07:17 > 0:07:20you said about education, that is starting to change.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23We teach enterprise, we teach career skills and soft skills.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25Some of those students, they are working as cleaners.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27I worked as a cleaner whilst I was at university.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30And we don't see enough of those people.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33We've projected this image of the lazy millennials,
0:07:33 > 0:07:35they go to universities, they'll only accept certain jobs,
0:07:35 > 0:07:37they won't do certain things.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39And that's just not borne out by most of our young people.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41They are prepared to do those jobs
0:07:41 > 0:07:43and they are working hard to get the new opportunities.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Charlie, in the front row, you're one of the biggest employers in the room.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48Is there a difference between a British worker
0:07:48 > 0:07:51and a non-British worker, or, indeed, between a millennial -
0:07:51 > 0:07:54a young employee and a slightly older one?
0:07:54 > 0:07:57The real issue we've got here - why some people are on low wages -
0:07:57 > 0:08:00is, unfortunately, they've not been given the opportunity
0:08:00 > 0:08:01to get a skilled job.
0:08:01 > 0:08:03If you've learnt a skill or an apprenticeship,
0:08:03 > 0:08:05you're going to go on and earn lots of money.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07But, unfortunately, from school level,
0:08:07 > 0:08:09they're sending them to university -
0:08:09 > 0:08:12waste of time for a lot of them - and, therefore, unfortunately,
0:08:12 > 0:08:15as this lady said, you know, you wind up with a cleaning job...
0:08:15 > 0:08:17Is that what Sean did wrong? He's get a degree in media management.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21- Was that a mistake?- He should have done an apprenticeship. Not necessarily his fault.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23We're guiding too many people to university,
0:08:23 > 0:08:25rather than into real jobs.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27And, you know, if you've got a skill,
0:08:27 > 0:08:29you're going to earn loads of money and never be out of work.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31APPLAUSE You're in the plumbing business.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34- That's correct.- Off the top of your head, apart from the classic trades,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37what other skills are there that people could train to do?
0:08:37 > 0:08:38Accountancy, HR, PR...
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Anything that warrants a qualification at the end of it
0:08:42 > 0:08:44should mean that you get a good living wage, you know,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47not a minimum wage, but an actual living wage.
0:08:47 > 0:08:48No matter how hard people work,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51even if you accept this idea that meritocracy works,
0:08:51 > 0:08:54we will always need care workers, we will always need cleaners.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58Anybody who believes that people earn low money because they're lazy
0:08:58 > 0:08:59should talk to a care worker.
0:08:59 > 0:09:00APPLAUSE
0:09:00 > 0:09:04They are some of the hardest working people you'll ever meet!
0:09:04 > 0:09:05There is no progression in that job.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08But, even if there were, we would still need people to do it.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10Increasingly, in an ageing society,
0:09:10 > 0:09:12we need to look after our most vulnerable.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14So why are they amongst the lowest paid in our society?
0:09:14 > 0:09:17Where I live, the majority of kids are growing up in poverty.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21Most of those kids growing up in poverty live in a household
0:09:21 > 0:09:23where at least one of their parents is working
0:09:23 > 0:09:25and those are the types of job they're doing -
0:09:25 > 0:09:27care work, cleaners - really difficult jobs.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31The idea that work lifts people out of poverty is nonsense.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33It SHOULD lift people out of poverty, but it doesn't.
0:09:33 > 0:09:34APPLAUSE
0:09:36 > 0:09:37I know what we've done.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39We've lit the blue touchpaper.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42The firework is still fizzing, but we have to move along now.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45That is what our audience thinks about the first question tonight.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Let's do a little myth-busting. I think we might need it.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50What is the reality here?
0:09:50 > 0:09:52Are we working hard enough?
0:09:52 > 0:09:56Steph went to Sweden, a country with just 3% of its population
0:09:56 > 0:09:59on low pay, to find out what they're doing differently.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03Welcome to Sweden...
0:10:05 > 0:10:09..one of the biggest exporters of pop music in the world.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13People here recycle 99% of all of their waste.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15And they love their meatballs, too,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18exporting over a billion every year.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24But I'm not here for any of that.
0:10:24 > 0:10:28I've come to Stockholm to compare how Britain and Sweden work
0:10:28 > 0:10:30and to see if it can help us understand
0:10:30 > 0:10:34why so many more people in the UK are on low pay.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38Firstly, how do our working hours compare?
0:10:38 > 0:10:39Well, where better place to start
0:10:39 > 0:10:42than asking Swedish workers themselves?
0:10:42 > 0:10:45The normal working hours are eight hours.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48But we have one-hour lunch, between 12 and 1.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52And then we have a coffee break, like, for 15 minutes or so -
0:10:52 > 0:10:55one at ten o'clock and one at three o'clock.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59People get jealous when they hear about my salary
0:10:59 > 0:11:01and the hours I work.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03I worked in London before and I can see the difference
0:11:03 > 0:11:06between over there and here,
0:11:06 > 0:11:09because there were people usually having lunch at their desks.
0:11:12 > 0:11:13And the stats back that up.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16Here, fewer people do 40 hours or more a week
0:11:16 > 0:11:18than British workers.
0:11:18 > 0:11:19And fewer work weekends,
0:11:19 > 0:11:23so it means there's more time to relax and watch the world go by.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27In the UK, well, this would be to-go, wouldn't it?
0:11:27 > 0:11:30Yes, despite cliches of lazy British workers,
0:11:30 > 0:11:31those that work full-time
0:11:31 > 0:11:35do some of the longest hours of any country in Europe,
0:11:35 > 0:11:38averaging around 43 hours each week.
0:11:38 > 0:11:43And more than one in ten Brits regularly work over 50 hours a week,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46compared to just 1/100 Swedes.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55Let's pop back to the UK to meet James Watt, co-founder of one of
0:11:55 > 0:11:59Britain's fastest-growing drinks companies, Brewdog.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03He and a friend started it from scratch in Aberdeen.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05We slept on sacks of malt on the floor,
0:12:05 > 0:12:07we worked 20-hour days every single day.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09We bought all the beer, we sold the beer,
0:12:09 > 0:12:11we did the accounts, we made the beer.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14It was insanely tough, but we loved every second of it.
0:12:14 > 0:12:19And it's a work ethic he expects his staff to follow.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21Everyone is always on the go and always delivering
0:12:21 > 0:12:24as much as they can.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26And nobody just really rests on their laurels.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30It's not something that we ever would accept, as a company.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34I think British people actually feel a bit guilty about taking time off.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36I think that's kind of our national curse.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38My boyfriend recently said to me that my work-life balance
0:12:38 > 0:12:41is as bad as my actual balance, which is pretty bad.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45But Brewdog is no exception,
0:12:45 > 0:12:48if recent research is anything to go by.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Nearly 40% of British workers surveyed said
0:12:51 > 0:12:56they face tight deadlines on an almost continuous basis.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58And over a quarter of Britons say
0:12:58 > 0:13:01they don't take any breaks at all.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Back in Sweden, the way they do things might just make you question
0:13:07 > 0:13:10whether all that hard graft is worth it.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14Some companies are actually reducing their office hours.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17I'm on my way to meet Magnus.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19He runs a software company here in Stockholm
0:13:19 > 0:13:23and employs his staff on a six-hour day.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27'Despite the short hours, they are growing fast.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30'They've nearly doubled their revenue in the past year.'
0:13:30 > 0:13:35Our article-producing department, which is rather easy to compare,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38they write an average one article more per day
0:13:38 > 0:13:40than similar companies.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43And they do it in two hours shorter.
0:13:43 > 0:13:47And if you're thinking a six-hour day means lower pay, you'd be wrong.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50Magnus pays workers the same rate
0:13:50 > 0:13:53as his competitors, who have longer working days.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57His staff, like Tommy here, can't believe their luck.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00The first day was really...it was kind of confusing.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04I mean, I came from being used to working eight hours a day.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06And then, when we got to four o'clock,
0:14:06 > 0:14:09and I was supposed to leave, it was unreal.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11I felt guilty.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15I'm way more productive and deliver better results now
0:14:15 > 0:14:17than I've done ever before.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21And that means by five o'clock,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24the school run is done and Tommy's back home with his family.
0:14:24 > 0:14:25THEY TALK
0:14:25 > 0:14:27'I think the main difference is'
0:14:27 > 0:14:30that he's a lot happier!
0:14:30 > 0:14:33As a husband and as a parent.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37I think that's basically the biggest benefit from this.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40Not all Swedes are on a six-hour day,
0:14:40 > 0:14:42but, on top of a lunch break,
0:14:42 > 0:14:46the twice daily coffee and cake break, known as fika,
0:14:46 > 0:14:48is strictly observed in many workplaces.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52So, what has the comparison
0:14:52 > 0:14:55between British and Swedish workers shown us?
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Well, on average, Brits work longer hours,
0:14:58 > 0:15:00in fact, some of the longest in Europe.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03And during this time, we work more intensely.
0:15:08 > 0:15:09So, here's the puzzle.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13Why do we still have so many people who are on low pay?
0:15:13 > 0:15:15And if it isn't about the number of hours they work,
0:15:15 > 0:15:17then, what is it about?
0:15:17 > 0:15:19Time for my fika break.
0:15:19 > 0:15:20Thank you.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26Now, let's talk bosses. What do you think about them?
0:15:26 > 0:15:30How they manage people, how they invest and how much they're paid.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32So, earlier, we asked...
0:15:36 > 0:15:38Our 100 have voted.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42And 61% of them think it's the bosses' fault,
0:15:42 > 0:15:44compared to 39% who don't.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48So, are we getting paid so little,
0:15:48 > 0:15:51because bosses are getting paid so much? You, sir.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55I'm an entrepreneur. I've set up and run two or three companies.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58I've worked my arse off and not been paid, excuse my language,
0:15:58 > 0:16:01my arse off to not...
0:16:01 > 0:16:04to provide for others before I got a penny out of my company.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08and every single person in my business always gets a pay rise
0:16:08 > 0:16:10every three months, if they're valuable to me.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13You are not there to be paid for the hour you work.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16You are there to give me a deliverable, so that I can expand
0:16:16 > 0:16:19the company and employ more people and pay more taxes.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21You are there because you are valuable to me,
0:16:21 > 0:16:23not because you're paid for the hour.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26If you bring more value to the hour, you get paid more.
0:16:26 > 0:16:27It's as simple as that.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30APPLAUSE How do you measure value? This lady asks.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33It's things like if we've got a deadline for a product or client
0:16:33 > 0:16:36and somebody goes home dead on 5:30, but somebody's going to sit there
0:16:36 > 0:16:38till eight o'clock and get it delivered for me,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41they are far more valuable to me as a company
0:16:41 > 0:16:43than somebody, who bang on 5:30, is walking out the door,
0:16:43 > 0:16:46- like a procession of... - Do you not think people will...
0:16:46 > 0:16:48APPLAUSE
0:16:48 > 0:16:51Do you not think people will be more productive,
0:16:51 > 0:16:56if they can respect you as, you know, to match their wage -
0:16:56 > 0:16:58you're not earning a ridiculous amount,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01- while they're earning nothing. - But where's the risk for reward?
0:17:01 > 0:17:03I've put all the risk in to provide your employment
0:17:03 > 0:17:06and you don't know half of the rubbish we have to go through
0:17:06 > 0:17:07in order to get you in to the door.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10..the time and work, for lower pay.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13In order to meet... Where is the reward for the risk?
0:17:13 > 0:17:14Am I doing something wrong?
0:17:14 > 0:17:18Because I work, I've got two jobs, and I work very hard.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20I'm sure you work hard as well.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22- ALL TALK AT ONCE - I think if you work intelligently,
0:17:22 > 0:17:26so you understand the fact that, if you plough on at something
0:17:26 > 0:17:27that isn't earning you something,
0:17:27 > 0:17:29perhaps it's not the right thing to be doing.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32I had to change industry three or four times before I understood
0:17:32 > 0:17:35which industry is going to earn the money, so I can employ people
0:17:35 > 0:17:36- and pay more taxes. - ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:17:36 > 0:17:41I'm 40 years old, I've had many jobs and I've tried all kinds of things.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43I've got a degree in arts management as well.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46I've been to university and I've worked hard.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48The suggestion is that you're not working intelligently.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51Definitely, that's not true. That is just...
0:17:51 > 0:17:53That is...completely...
0:17:53 > 0:17:55OK, gentleman here again.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57People will be - back to my previous point -
0:17:57 > 0:18:02people will be more motivated to "work intelligently", as you say,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05if they feel more of a...
0:18:05 > 0:18:08- Involvement?- More involvement. And more that you're involved
0:18:08 > 0:18:09and you're down on their level
0:18:09 > 0:18:12and you're not earning a ridiculous amount,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15- while they're slaving away and... - That's exactly what he said.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17He said that the way he pays his staff
0:18:17 > 0:18:19is by the value that they bring to his company.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21- Now, if I was to work for you... - One at a time.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24..I would rather know that my pay is based on
0:18:24 > 0:18:26this is what I deliver to the company,
0:18:26 > 0:18:28this is what the company sets out to do.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31You're part of a team, and you're rewarded for what you put in,
0:18:31 > 0:18:34rather than him saying, "OK, this tier gets paid X amount,
0:18:34 > 0:18:36- "this tier gets paid Y amount." - Exactly.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38And, absolutely, he is the man who's put the risk in,
0:18:38 > 0:18:40- and he's built up that culture. - You are part of a team...- Mm.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42He should be rewarded at the top of the scale.
0:18:42 > 0:18:44APPLAUSE
0:18:44 > 0:18:46In terms of bosses' earnings,
0:18:46 > 0:18:49I think we need to draw some clear blue water between an entrepreneur,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52who starts a company, risks their own money
0:18:52 > 0:18:54and puts in their own hours,
0:18:54 > 0:18:57and a bunch of executives in large corporates,
0:18:57 > 0:18:59who are drawing down exactly this kind of money
0:18:59 > 0:19:01for sitting in an office doing naff all.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03APPLAUSE
0:19:03 > 0:19:04How do you make that distinction?
0:19:04 > 0:19:08And what do you do to the bosses who you describe in such poetic terms?
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Well, one of the ideas that's been put forward is to link the pay
0:19:11 > 0:19:14of the very top with the pay of the very lowest paid in the company.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16APPLAUSE So, the differential.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18You shouldn't be able to earn 30 times more
0:19:18 > 0:19:20- than what the lowest paid person earns.- Yes.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22And then everybody's productivity is being rewarded.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24Lawrence Jones.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26I think it's important, as a business owner,
0:19:26 > 0:19:28that we don't all get tarred with the same brush.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30- We've created... - APPLAUSE
0:19:32 > 0:19:35Briefly, Lawrence, what brush you think you have been tarred with
0:19:35 > 0:19:37by some of the other businesspeople in the audience?
0:19:37 > 0:19:40I think... I wouldn't want my team working
0:19:40 > 0:19:42an extra couple of hours a day for nothing.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45- And I wouldn't... - To prove that they deserve...
0:19:45 > 0:19:49- Yeah.- And we've given a pay rise of 5% for over 10 years
0:19:49 > 0:19:51to everybody within the business.
0:19:51 > 0:19:56We've also... If you work for UKFast for more than ten years,
0:19:56 > 0:19:59you'll get a £10,000 tax-paid bonus
0:19:59 > 0:20:01that we give away at the Christmas party
0:20:01 > 0:20:03and there's nothing more motivating and emotional for me to be able
0:20:03 > 0:20:05to give that out at a Christmas party.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08If you get married, we'll give you the week off.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11And if you can't afford the week off, cos we know how difficult it is
0:20:11 > 0:20:14with the pressure, we'll pay you that money instead.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16So, you consciously take home less money,
0:20:16 > 0:20:19- in order to ensure that your workers...?- I take more than enough.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22Probably too much, you know, but, at the same time, I would never...
0:20:22 > 0:20:25I'm in a situation where I've set the business up with my wife, Gail,
0:20:25 > 0:20:2917 years ago and it was tough. Those first couple of years,
0:20:29 > 0:20:31there were... I'm not proud to say, but there were times
0:20:31 > 0:20:35when I ate porridge and Weetabix for a whole month.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38But I'm in a very, very lucky position now
0:20:38 > 0:20:40and I'm under no illusions.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41I'm in the position I'm in,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44because I've got the most amazing, motivated workforce.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47And that's typical of a small business owner.
0:20:47 > 0:20:48APPLAUSE
0:20:48 > 0:20:50Before we move on, a quick show of hands.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Who's ever had a boss like Lawrence?
0:20:54 > 0:20:55No, I didn't ask if you were a boss.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58I said, who's ever had...? It's about 4 people out of 100
0:20:58 > 0:21:00who've had a boss... Five, I didn't see you there.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02I do believe that one day, we will all be like that.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03Well, don't hold your breath.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Well, I'm not going to give up.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09No, quite right, too. Bosses' pay clearly a divisive issue but how our
0:21:09 > 0:21:13bosses manage us also has a big impact on our pay.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17Steph's been looking at what our productivity means for our wages.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23Welcome to the global race, where the world's most advanced
0:21:23 > 0:21:26economies are battling to be the fastest,
0:21:26 > 0:21:28leanest and most efficient.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31The rules of the race are simple.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34The country where the workers produce the most per hour
0:21:34 > 0:21:36is the most productive.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39And this is where the UK is falling behind.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43We produce 10% less than Italian workers and around a third less
0:21:43 > 0:21:46per hour than workers in Germany and the US.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Or in other words, the average worker there could stop working in
0:21:50 > 0:21:55September and still produce the same as a UK worker manages all year.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59So why are we doing so badly, because we know we work long,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03hard hours and we have the largest workforce in our history.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Well, to help me explain, I've set up a little challenge,
0:22:06 > 0:22:10with some ridiculously complicated flatpack furniture and a race
0:22:10 > 0:22:11against the clock.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Team one - our Germans, who, as you can, see chose to dress up
0:22:16 > 0:22:17for the occasion.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23Team two are a group of British workers selected at random.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27To be crowned the most productive, the winning team must build this
0:22:27 > 0:22:29bedroom in the shortest amount of time.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34But what they don't know is that this task is rigged.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37The British team will have to cope with some of the UK's main
0:22:37 > 0:22:40productivity challenges, whereas the Germans, well,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43they'll be able to utilise their world-leading efficiency.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49Before our British team has even started,
0:22:49 > 0:22:53they're already at a disadvantage and that's all down to education.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58Richard here might have A-levels in maths, physics and economics,
0:22:58 > 0:23:03but the Germans benefit from the country's emphasis on vocational
0:23:03 > 0:23:04practical training.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06They're all qualified carpenters,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10whose company, Baufritz built all of this in just one day.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16So the Germans have studied the instructions beforehand...
0:23:16 > 0:23:17Hello, team.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20..the Brits have to work it all out as they go along.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24I've got your tools for you, so they are from a well-known pound shop.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26Three, two, one.
0:23:27 > 0:23:28Take it away!
0:23:28 > 0:23:31So the Brits have to make do with their pound-shop purchases.
0:23:31 > 0:23:36The Germans, however, get the latest power tools.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39So why have we given them the advantage?
0:23:39 > 0:23:42Well, it's to illustrate the UK's lack of investment.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46Things like machinery, technology and innovation.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50Britain's spending track record has been significantly behind
0:23:50 > 0:23:53many European countries for nearly 50 years.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57- How's it going, Michelle? - A bit hard, actually.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02This is where we could do with having a power tool.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07I think we'll leave the Brits to struggle on there with those tools
0:24:07 > 0:24:10but just how much of a difference can investing in the right
0:24:10 > 0:24:12technology have on productivity?
0:24:16 > 0:24:19The Airbus factory here in Broughton, North Wales,
0:24:19 > 0:24:23produces wings for some of the world's most popular aircraft.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25Over the last 15 years,
0:24:25 > 0:24:29they've invested £2 billion at this site alone.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32Approximately 20 years ago,
0:24:32 > 0:24:36we were producing round about 100 wing sets whereas this year,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39we'll be producing over 600 wing sets.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42We've invested in the production system.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44We've also invested in a Beluga line station,
0:24:44 > 0:24:49which means we can actually ship and fly out more of our wings to our
0:24:49 > 0:24:51customers on the Continent.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59Back to our flatpack race and the Germans are already way ahead.
0:24:59 > 0:25:01And that's down to good management.
0:25:03 > 0:25:04Look at the speed of this.
0:25:04 > 0:25:08The efficiency of these guys is amazing, isn't it?
0:25:08 > 0:25:11On the British team, checkout supervisor Sue
0:25:11 > 0:25:13is losing her patience.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Forget that. Let's get on to something else.
0:25:16 > 0:25:20In fact, good management is deemed so important by some economists,
0:25:20 > 0:25:23that they reckon if we could improve this in the UK,
0:25:23 > 0:25:26then we could reduce that productivity gap with Germany
0:25:26 > 0:25:27by a third.
0:25:29 > 0:25:33So what can British companies learn from foreign managers?
0:25:33 > 0:25:37Well, two years ago, hi-tech manufacturer PP Electrical
0:25:37 > 0:25:40here in Walsall were at the top of their game,
0:25:40 > 0:25:42so what do you do when you're the best?
0:25:42 > 0:25:45- Hello.- Take on the Germans, of course.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47We suddenly found out that we weren't quite as good
0:25:47 > 0:25:49as we thought we were.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53In fact, we found there was a 20% difference in productivity between
0:25:53 > 0:25:54ourselves and our German competitors.
0:25:56 > 0:26:00Tony copied US and Japanese techniques and turned to the people
0:26:00 > 0:26:03that know the business the best - his staff.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05By taking suggestions from his work force,
0:26:05 > 0:26:09he nearly doubled productivity in just two years,
0:26:09 > 0:26:13rewarding good ideas with one of these badges.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Every time a new badge comes out, it's kind of,
0:26:16 > 0:26:17who can get one the quickest?
0:26:22 > 0:26:25Our flatpackers are reaching the end of their task.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28But there's one last challenge the Brits have to overcome -
0:26:28 > 0:26:29UK infrastructure.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35We've rigged things so that both teams are missing a key part.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38Unsurprisingly, on the German team,
0:26:38 > 0:26:41Alex realises there's a piece missing first.
0:26:41 > 0:26:42So he gets on the phone.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44- Hello.- Hello, Alex here.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48We are missing a part of the cupboard.
0:26:49 > 0:26:53Germany beats UK hands-down when it comes to road and rail
0:26:53 > 0:26:56infrastructure, so I can deliver the part instantly.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59White rail missing.
0:27:01 > 0:27:02- Hi, hello.- Hello.
0:27:03 > 0:27:04We have a slight problem.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06No, I can't hear you very well.
0:27:07 > 0:27:12The UK's poor mobile reception gets them off to a shaky start.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15We have a set of a chest of drawers with some parts missing.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18I wondered if we could arrange to get those brought or sorted out?
0:27:18 > 0:27:20Oh, it's going to take a while.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23Oh.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26And our potholed roads also slow things down,
0:27:26 > 0:27:29which all amounts to some bad news for the Brits.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31I don't think I'm going to be able to get it to you
0:27:31 > 0:27:34- for a couple of days. - How frustrating.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39Clearly, our Brits are losing the will to live but how does this all
0:27:39 > 0:27:40affect our pay?
0:27:41 > 0:27:44Research shows that when productivity goes up,
0:27:44 > 0:27:45then pay often does too.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48So if we can reduce that productivity gap,
0:27:48 > 0:27:51with countries like Germany and the US, well,
0:27:51 > 0:27:54then we could see a boost to pay packets.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00Final results time.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04The Germans completed this all in an impressive one hour 30.
0:28:06 > 0:28:10Things weren't so cheerful on the British team.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12They didn't come close to finishing.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15We're not on an even playing field, are we?
0:28:15 > 0:28:18Sue's right. They weren't on a level playing field.
0:28:18 > 0:28:20Poor investment, management,
0:28:20 > 0:28:24education and infrastructure held our team back,
0:28:24 > 0:28:26challenges all UK workers have to face.
0:28:35 > 0:28:39Now the woman in the middle of tonight's audience represents the
0:28:39 > 0:28:41median wage in Britain.
0:28:41 > 0:28:42And that's you, Debbie Lewis.
0:28:42 > 0:28:47You earn just above the national median of £22,500.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49Did you realise or even suspect that you are smack in the middle of
0:28:49 > 0:28:51- British wage earners?- No, not all.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53I'm quite surprised by that.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55Why, because you thought you were rolling in it,
0:28:55 > 0:28:57or you thought that you were on struggle street?
0:28:57 > 0:28:59I thought I was probably closer to struggle street.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02Purely because, being in southern England and a single parent,
0:29:02 > 0:29:05I would've expected the average salary to be a lot higher than that.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08Do you feel better now that you know you're at the midpoint?
0:29:08 > 0:29:09Not particularly.
0:29:11 > 0:29:16So everyone seated on this side of Debbie is earning less than her,
0:29:16 > 0:29:19like 50% of the working population.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21Everyone on the other side of her, are earning more.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24They are in the top half of UK pay.
0:29:24 > 0:29:26So let's split this up.
0:29:26 > 0:29:33If you earn £34,400 or more, you're in the top 25% of British earners.
0:29:33 > 0:29:37At the other end, at 13,600 or lower,
0:29:37 > 0:29:40that puts you in the bottom 25%.
0:29:40 > 0:29:44So we've looked at bosses and we've looked at workers but there are a
0:29:44 > 0:29:46few more factors we need to consider.
0:29:46 > 0:29:47- Aren't there, Steph?- Yes.
0:29:47 > 0:29:52One thing we haven't talked about so far is the 2008 financial crash.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Now, given everything happening in the political world at the moment,
0:29:55 > 0:29:59the economic troubles of eight years ago might feel like a distant
0:29:59 > 0:30:03memory, but they are still affecting our pay packet.
0:30:03 > 0:30:04Let's get up another graph.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10Now, this time we are looking at how our average weekly pay has changed,
0:30:10 > 0:30:13so you can see from this, up until the crash there was a steady rise,
0:30:13 > 0:30:15adjusted for inflation.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18Then after the crash, it started heading south.
0:30:18 > 0:30:24Now, recently it's picked up again, growing by around 2% in the last
0:30:24 > 0:30:26year, but this is pretty slow recovery.
0:30:26 > 0:30:29Even though our pay has been going up a bit,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32when you take into account the cost of living, inflation,
0:30:32 > 0:30:37in real terms we are earning £1,000 a year on average less than before
0:30:37 > 0:30:41the crash, so where would we have been if it hadn't happened?
0:30:41 > 0:30:44Well, according to one economic analysis,
0:30:44 > 0:30:49we are earning on average around 18% less than we would have been if we
0:30:49 > 0:30:50hadn't had the crash.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54And this is one of the main reasons why many of us still feel poorer
0:30:54 > 0:30:59than we were. So, let's take our woman in the middle, Debbie.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01Now, if the crash hadn't have happened,
0:31:01 > 0:31:06experts say that Debbie would be earning more than £27,000
0:31:06 > 0:31:10a year by now. But the other side of this story is jobs.
0:31:10 > 0:31:12Now, unemployment did rise after the crash,
0:31:12 > 0:31:16but then it fell faster than most predictions,
0:31:16 > 0:31:19and now we are back where we were in 2005.
0:31:19 > 0:31:24But many of those jobs created at this time were paid lower,
0:31:24 > 0:31:27part-time, zero hours or freelance positions,
0:31:27 > 0:31:32so lots of workers were under employed, not getting as many hours,
0:31:32 > 0:31:34so, essentially, earning less.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37The other thing to consider is that in the UK,
0:31:37 > 0:31:40some of the most successful industries are areas like
0:31:40 > 0:31:43hospitality, retail and the care professions.
0:31:43 > 0:31:48And these are all ones that rely on a lot of relatively unskilled
0:31:48 > 0:31:52labour, which means cheap, low paid workers.
0:31:52 > 0:31:56Thanks, Steph. So, now that we know some of the main reasons for the
0:31:56 > 0:31:58state of pay in the UK, what about the future?
0:31:58 > 0:32:00In the second half of our show,
0:32:00 > 0:32:03we want to see if Britain can really have a pay rise.
0:32:03 > 0:32:06There are two major political changes that are likely to have an
0:32:06 > 0:32:07effect on our pay.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10In a moment, we'll be talking about the impact of Brexit,
0:32:10 > 0:32:13but first, the national living wage.
0:32:13 > 0:32:17Steph's been to meet two businesses in Manchester who've already
0:32:17 > 0:32:18seen changes.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23Two bosses, two of their workers.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26Two very different views on the living wage.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31Fiona runs a cleaning and maintenance company in Manchester.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33James has worked there for two years.
0:32:33 > 0:32:37Now, she increased her staff's pay above the rate of the mandatory
0:32:37 > 0:32:39living wage earlier in the year.
0:32:39 > 0:32:42What we wanted to do is reward our staff that we've already got
0:32:42 > 0:32:44and make it a great place to work.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47It does cost you more money as a business, though.
0:32:47 > 0:32:48How are you paying for it?
0:32:48 > 0:32:51Well, it is a cost, but we've seen fewer people leave.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54When you lose people as a business, there is a cost involved in the
0:32:54 > 0:32:58advertising, the sifting through the CVs, the doing the interviews.
0:32:58 > 0:33:02That is a big time commitment which takes quite a lot of money.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04James cleans the drains of office buildings.
0:33:04 > 0:33:09He's seen a real difference to his life since he received his pay rise.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11So, James, what's this pay rise meant for you?
0:33:11 > 0:33:13It's meant, like, when I got paid last month,
0:33:13 > 0:33:15at the end of the month I've had money left over.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17So have you had times, then,
0:33:17 > 0:33:19in the past where you've struggled with money?
0:33:19 > 0:33:23Yeah. I have. Obviously kids are expensive and once I've paid all my
0:33:23 > 0:33:25bills, I'm usually left with hardly anything, you know,
0:33:25 > 0:33:28to live on myself. Now I don't have to worry about my money.
0:33:28 > 0:33:30I want to move house, and that, so now I can start saving up,
0:33:30 > 0:33:34so I've got that extra bit of money, I can start saving that to the side.
0:33:34 > 0:33:37Have you seen a change, then, in your staff?
0:33:37 > 0:33:40Yeah, absolutely. People are a lot more engaged.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43They seem really happy to be at work.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45Absolutely, there's been an increase in productivity.
0:33:46 > 0:33:51The UK first implemented a mandatory minimum wage in 1999.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55I'm telling you tonight that a minimum wage there will be under
0:33:55 > 0:33:57this Labour government.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01This rate did rise every year, but since 2001,
0:34:01 > 0:34:05living wage campaigners have argued that the minimum wage
0:34:05 > 0:34:07simply isn't enough.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11And in April this year, we saw the biggest change in UK pay law in
0:34:11 > 0:34:14over a decade when George Osborne introduced the mandatory
0:34:14 > 0:34:17national living wage.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21I am today introducing a new national living wage.
0:34:21 > 0:34:26We will set it to reach £9 an hour by 2020.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30The announcement was met with a mixed reaction from business owners.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32For some, like Sunil Sood,
0:34:32 > 0:34:36it means cutbacks to staffing at his chain of shops in Manchester.
0:34:36 > 0:34:41Tell us a bit about how the rise in wages has impacted your business.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44We've had to cut back hours, because the reality is business is very,
0:34:44 > 0:34:47very tough, so we've had to cut hours from the staff.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51We just haven't got the luxury of having extra cash flow or extra
0:34:51 > 0:34:53money to offer to employees.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56So what you've got is staff earning more per hour,
0:34:56 > 0:34:57but they're not doing as many hours.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59Not as many hours. Absolutely, yes.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02And his employees have definitely felt this added pressure
0:35:02 > 0:35:04on the business.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07Zoe, have you noticed things changing in here since the minimum
0:35:07 > 0:35:11- wage has gone up?- Yeah, it's a bit difficult in the workplace,
0:35:11 > 0:35:13as there is not enough staff.
0:35:13 > 0:35:15It's harder work, really. More stressful.
0:35:15 > 0:35:19We don't really get a break, a proper break at the moment,
0:35:19 > 0:35:21as we have to come off our break to serve the customers.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25What does it mean in the long term for you, then?
0:35:25 > 0:35:28- Is this sustainable, the way you're working now?- It's not.
0:35:28 > 0:35:29I don't know how we can cope.
0:35:29 > 0:35:35When the £9 wage increase, wage rate comes in. The idea is fantastic.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37I would love my staff to be happy and get paid more,
0:35:37 > 0:35:39but where do we get the money from?
0:35:39 > 0:35:42Since the introduction of the national living wage,
0:35:42 > 0:35:46many big businesses have also cut benefits like extra weekend and
0:35:46 > 0:35:50Bank Holiday pay, but will they get used to these increases eventually,
0:35:50 > 0:35:54or will continued compulsory pay rises be too much pressure
0:35:54 > 0:35:57on some British businesses?
0:36:00 > 0:36:03Time now for our third vote. Now, earlier we asked...
0:36:09 > 0:36:14Here's the results. 42% think it will. 58% disagree.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20So, a majority in this room tonight don't think that a national living
0:36:20 > 0:36:24wage will lead to a pay increase for the average British worker.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26Sunil, I saw you in that film.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29You were wonderful. Especially in the close-ups.
0:36:29 > 0:36:31You like the idea of the national living wage,
0:36:31 > 0:36:34but clearly it hasn't had quite the impact that George Osborne
0:36:34 > 0:36:35- was hoping for.- No, it hasn't.
0:36:35 > 0:36:39I mean, for me it's been quite shattering, actually.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41It's a nerve-racking experience.
0:36:41 > 0:36:43Minimum wage is a wonderful idea.
0:36:43 > 0:36:45I'm happy to give my staff wage rises,
0:36:45 > 0:36:46but where does the money come from?
0:36:46 > 0:36:49Lawrence, what was your line about bosses who say they can't afford to
0:36:49 > 0:36:51pay their staff the national living wage?
0:36:51 > 0:36:53Something to do with their cars, wasn't it?
0:36:53 > 0:36:57Well, I would immediately ask, you know, about your lifestyle,
0:36:57 > 0:37:00- you know...- Well...- You know, I may be unfair.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02No, that's fine, but...
0:37:02 > 0:37:07In fact, what I have done is actually I have sat down with each
0:37:07 > 0:37:12of my places, each of my shops, and I have come in with my bank account,
0:37:12 > 0:37:16with my business accounts, and shown the staff, "This is where we are.
0:37:16 > 0:37:17"Where do I get the wage rises from?"
0:37:17 > 0:37:20- Because there has been...- Maybe they should work intelligently,
0:37:20 > 0:37:23rather than harder. That's the turn up there, sir.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26Intelligently, if you mean that we should look at maybe automation.
0:37:26 > 0:37:28That will have its own costs.
0:37:28 > 0:37:29You know, are we talking about IT?
0:37:29 > 0:37:33Are we talking about bringing out automatic self-service checkouts?
0:37:33 > 0:37:36I mean, that is absolutely against the ethos of my business.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38I'm a neighbourhood store.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41I have shops which rely on giving personal service to my customers who
0:37:41 > 0:37:43we see day in, day out, regular people.
0:37:43 > 0:37:48So, if I am becoming automatic, if I lose staff there,
0:37:48 > 0:37:50I'm like any other.
0:37:50 > 0:37:56You, surprisingly, you've felt what Sunil's just described
0:37:56 > 0:37:59from the other end of the working ladder.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03You were a worker in a food factory and the national
0:38:03 > 0:38:05living wage has changed your life,
0:38:05 > 0:38:07not necessarily in the way that George Osborne intended.
0:38:07 > 0:38:11No. My life has changed because of the living wage.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13It came in January and the new proposal and everything,
0:38:13 > 0:38:16contract came. They put the tea break into the wages
0:38:16 > 0:38:18and they consolidated into our wages.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21And not only that, they cut the weekend allowance.
0:38:21 > 0:38:23They cut the night premium.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27Everything is gone. So the living wage has shattered us.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29So much worse off?
0:38:29 > 0:38:31Yeah, much worse off than the year before.
0:38:31 > 0:38:34And what happened was I stood up against it.
0:38:34 > 0:38:35I joined the union.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38I organised the people, 50% of people who joined in the union.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41There is another reason, because I was a voice of the union.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43I was an activist.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45They can't manage me. They dismissed me from work.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48And the union has done a fantastic job for me.
0:38:48 > 0:38:52- No.- Unions just disrupt business. Waste of time. Honestly.
0:38:52 > 0:38:53- Waste of time.- No, no.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55They gave us everything good that we have in this country.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58Charlie, before you were talking about what you do for your workers,
0:38:58 > 0:39:01but we can't rely on all our bosses to be good to us.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04We have to be able to hold them to account and this is the only way,
0:39:04 > 0:39:07historically, we've ever been able to do it.
0:39:07 > 0:39:09Ending child labour, getting in pensions,
0:39:09 > 0:39:10by working people collectivising.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13We've got to be able to hold our bosses to account and that is the
0:39:13 > 0:39:15only way he's been able to challenge his.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17You have over there, and well done on your success.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21- Hold that thought.- Just to bring the debate back to the actual question.
0:39:21 > 0:39:22Oh, OK, he's after my job.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27When the national living wage was actually debated and introduced,
0:39:27 > 0:39:30Sir Justin King of Sainsbury's fame said that it's actually going to
0:39:30 > 0:39:31destroy jobs.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35The Office Of Budget Responsibility have said that by 2020,
0:39:35 > 0:39:38the national living wage is actually going to reduce the amount of jobs
0:39:38 > 0:39:40in the country by 60,000.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43You know, again, when it was introduced,
0:39:43 > 0:39:46manufacturers and retailers across the country said we're going to have
0:39:46 > 0:39:49to do one of two things - raise prices or automate.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52Raising prices isn't going to please anyone and automation's going to
0:39:52 > 0:39:55result in one thing and that's redundancies.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58- Look at the supermarkets.- Didn't we hear all the same arguments when
0:39:58 > 0:40:00they brought in the original minimum wage?
0:40:00 > 0:40:03The last time I checked the world was still turning.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05Yeah, but you've got to bear in mind that that's...
0:40:07 > 0:40:09It was £3.60 at the time, do you know what I mean?
0:40:09 > 0:40:11It's gone up. Above inflation, hasn't it, really?
0:40:11 > 0:40:14Basically the same arguments, about automation, about increasing prices.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16It's happening. Look at the supermarkets.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18The automation is here, James. Look at the B&Q.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21Lines of automated tills where there used to be people.
0:40:21 > 0:40:26Supermarkets the same. People are losing their job because of this.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28- But more than that...- Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
0:40:28 > 0:40:30What is the thrust of your argument,
0:40:30 > 0:40:32that if we can't pay people a pittance,
0:40:32 > 0:40:34we're going to replace them with robots?
0:40:34 > 0:40:36James, we're not talking about pittance.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39We're talking about £7.20 an hour. That's not a pittance, first of all.
0:40:40 > 0:40:44Only last week I undertook consultation in a small family
0:40:44 > 0:40:47business because of the national living wage,
0:40:47 > 0:40:50because of enhancements that the employer tried to give,
0:40:50 > 0:40:53like extra pay at weekends, double-pay at Bank Holiday.
0:40:53 > 0:40:55The end result now is,
0:40:55 > 0:40:58I have to consult on the employer's behalf about
0:40:58 > 0:41:02- redundancies.- I think we need... - Hang on, Sunil.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04You were in the film and you've had your say.
0:41:04 > 0:41:06I want to hear some other voices.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09I was a business owner, and in 2002 I had a gastro pub,
0:41:09 > 0:41:11and I used to pay my staff over £8 an hour.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14And I ended up having my business for five-and-a-half years and I
0:41:14 > 0:41:15didn't lose any staff.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18And their investment in my business was fantastic.
0:41:18 > 0:41:20The issue I have is that it's not a living wage, that rate,
0:41:20 > 0:41:23because otherwise why would people be getting
0:41:23 > 0:41:25working tax credits? It's not...
0:41:25 > 0:41:28It's not... And the point is...
0:41:28 > 0:41:30We really need to be...
0:41:30 > 0:41:32And we really need to recognise...
0:41:32 > 0:41:35I also used to lecture many years ago, and I turned round to my
0:41:35 > 0:41:38students and said, "Don't work hard, work smart."
0:41:38 > 0:41:41And working smart, people want to work, they want to work,
0:41:41 > 0:41:44they want to feel valued and they want to feel as if they...
0:41:44 > 0:41:47No, hang on. They want... No, you can't. Please let me finish.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49We represent small to medium-sized businesses...
0:41:49 > 0:41:51You're not letting me finish my point.
0:41:51 > 0:41:53Employees repeatedly say...
0:41:53 > 0:41:55And that just demonstrates that you are being arrogant.
0:41:55 > 0:41:57I am talking about the fact people want to work.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59They want to feel a value...
0:41:59 > 0:42:00- No.- ..and a purpose to their life.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02They do. And they want to give investment...
0:42:02 > 0:42:06Yes, they do. And, actually, I know for a fact...
0:42:06 > 0:42:09I just want to explore the people who don't want to work.
0:42:09 > 0:42:11All of my staff stayed in my business and
0:42:11 > 0:42:12they propelled my business to grow.
0:42:12 > 0:42:15- Because they felt that you were looking after them.- Massively, yes.
0:42:15 > 0:42:17Why don't people want to work?
0:42:17 > 0:42:20Because they say, "I don't want to work more hours,
0:42:20 > 0:42:22"because I'll lose my credits."
0:42:22 > 0:42:25- The system that is partly to blame. - Any evidence for that?
0:42:25 > 0:42:28We've got clients who tell us that every day.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34Time for me to put oil upon these very choppy waters. Steph.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37Now for our final question of the show.
0:42:37 > 0:42:42What will our vote to leave the European Union do to our pay?
0:42:42 > 0:42:43We asked...
0:42:47 > 0:42:53Results in... Just 21% think Brexit will result in a pay rise.
0:42:53 > 0:42:5479% think it won't.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58Well, that's our audience's view.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01Steph's been looking at what might happen to our pay as we negotiate
0:43:01 > 0:43:03our exit from the European Union.
0:43:05 > 0:43:11On 24th June, the UK woke up to one of the biggest political,
0:43:11 > 0:43:16social and economic shake ups in most people's lifetimes.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19The British people have spoken and the answer is we are out.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23The people have spoken. They just wanted a change.
0:43:23 > 0:43:28Friday morning, I was shocked, stunned and then scared.
0:43:28 > 0:43:33How and when we leave the EU is still undecided and there are loads
0:43:33 > 0:43:37of unanswered questions about things such as trade and immigration,
0:43:37 > 0:43:41but I bet you'd love to know whether it means we are more or less likely
0:43:41 > 0:43:44to get a pay cut or a pay rise.
0:43:45 > 0:43:47I've tracked down two experts
0:43:47 > 0:43:50who have very different views on the matter.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53One believes we'll be getting a pay rise.
0:43:53 > 0:43:54The other, a pay cut.
0:43:55 > 0:43:59Firstly, what do they believe will happen if we
0:43:59 > 0:44:00leave the single market?
0:44:00 > 0:44:04Britain does not have to be in the single market to be able to sell
0:44:04 > 0:44:05into the single market.
0:44:05 > 0:44:09The real issue here is about the ability to compete globally.
0:44:09 > 0:44:12We need to focus more and more on quality.
0:44:12 > 0:44:14Increased innovation, infrastructure spending,
0:44:14 > 0:44:18investment, will allow the UK economy to do well outside the
0:44:18 > 0:44:22single market and wages will continue to rise in the future.
0:44:22 > 0:44:23There is a lot up in the air right now,
0:44:23 > 0:44:26but if we do leave the single market, we will have to re-negotiate
0:44:26 > 0:44:29a lot of our trade deals and that will cause uncertainty,
0:44:29 > 0:44:31at least in the short to medium term, for businesses,
0:44:31 > 0:44:35so less investment, less hiring and that will affect young people.
0:44:35 > 0:44:39What we are looking at, with less trade there is lower productivity
0:44:39 > 0:44:41and therefore lower wages.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44Next up, many of the employment laws that affect our pay packet
0:44:44 > 0:44:48originated from the EU, so things like a minimum amount
0:44:48 > 0:44:52of paid annual leave and equal rights for part-time workers.
0:44:52 > 0:44:54Will we lose these?
0:44:54 > 0:44:57Workers' rights are vital for a successful economy.
0:44:57 > 0:45:00Within the European Union, workers' rights were set by bureaucrats in
0:45:00 > 0:45:03Brussels and were there to suit 28 countries.
0:45:03 > 0:45:07Outside the European Union, Britain will not only keep existing
0:45:07 > 0:45:09workers' rights, but more importantly, it will be up to
0:45:09 > 0:45:12parliament in the future and the British people to have
0:45:12 > 0:45:15workers' rights that are best suited to the UK economy.
0:45:15 > 0:45:20So many of our workers' rights are currently tied to the EU and in
0:45:20 > 0:45:23coming out of the EU, we will have to rewrite and replace those.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26We have to start from scratch and there's no guarantee that any of the
0:45:26 > 0:45:32progress on maternity pay, paternity pay, holiday pay, for instance,
0:45:32 > 0:45:33will be retained.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36It could also be that we go for lower workers' rights
0:45:36 > 0:45:39in a race to the bottom to compete with other countries.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42That is an equivalent to a cut in your wages.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47The other big question is whether there will be still be freedom of
0:45:47 > 0:45:51movement. If there isn't, what do our experts think
0:45:51 > 0:45:52that will do to pay?
0:45:52 > 0:45:55Unlimited migration, the free movement of people,
0:45:55 > 0:45:57didn't really push unskilled wages down,
0:45:57 > 0:46:00but it certainly prevented them from rising.
0:46:00 > 0:46:02With a points-based migration system,
0:46:02 > 0:46:06we can actually set migration policy to best suit the UK economy.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09It will allow those at the bottom on the unskilled wages to benefit the
0:46:09 > 0:46:12most and, indeed, allow wages to increase in the future
0:46:12 > 0:46:14in line with productivity.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18There is no guarantee that less immigration will mean better wages.
0:46:18 > 0:46:20Immigrants obviously come,
0:46:20 > 0:46:23they spend in the economy and that in turn creates jobs.
0:46:23 > 0:46:27And also with less skills in the economy for businesses to draw on,
0:46:27 > 0:46:30we'll have lower productivity and that will not be good for businesses
0:46:30 > 0:46:33and that will not be good for wages.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36We've already seen some impact of Brexit on stock markets
0:46:36 > 0:46:40and the value of the pound, but as for our pay,
0:46:40 > 0:46:41well, the jury's out.
0:46:43 > 0:46:47Crystal ball time. Will leaving the EU have an affect upon our pay
0:46:47 > 0:46:50packets? Difficult to find specialists as you could tell from
0:46:50 > 0:46:53our film who are convinced that we're not going to sacrifice
0:46:53 > 0:46:55any rights.
0:46:55 > 0:46:56Kevin, you work in this field.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59You're more optimistic perhaps than some of the other experts.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02I am. I don't think that employment rights generally are going to be
0:47:02 > 0:47:05affected by Brexit whatsoever, to be honest.
0:47:05 > 0:47:07Firstly, it would be political suicide.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09As to whether it would result in a pay rise,
0:47:09 > 0:47:13it's difficult to say at this point whether the referendum vote itself
0:47:13 > 0:47:15will result in immediate pay rise.
0:47:15 > 0:47:19Obviously we've got political turmoil and it's very much going to
0:47:19 > 0:47:22have to fall down to the negotiations that take place and
0:47:22 > 0:47:26whether we have the free market access or whether we take the
0:47:26 > 0:47:28Swedish or the Norwegian model.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31I'm surprised at your confidence given the turmoil that you've just
0:47:31 > 0:47:34- described.- Turmoil in terms of we're not sure what's going to happen
0:47:34 > 0:47:37in negotiation but in terms of economy, the economy I don't think
0:47:37 > 0:47:40- has had that big a hit from Brexit.- What?
0:47:41 > 0:47:48I don't think we're going to have a reduction in wages and...
0:47:48 > 0:47:51I don't think we're going to have a reduction in wages and I think
0:47:51 > 0:47:53- rights are going to be protected. - I'm going to come to Nia.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56I'm going to come to Nia next because that...
0:47:56 > 0:48:00Let us describe Kevin as having very much a glass half-full vision of our
0:48:00 > 0:48:01future, which is good.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03Yep. Optimism's wonderful.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05What's your glass looking like?
0:48:05 > 0:48:08Pretty worried, cracked.
0:48:09 > 0:48:10I think...
0:48:12 > 0:48:14I'm a rep at work and I feel really,
0:48:14 > 0:48:17really concerned about maternity rights, paternity rights,
0:48:17 > 0:48:19like adoption pay.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22Why are you worried? No politician in Britain really has suggested they
0:48:22 > 0:48:24would start drawing back on those kind of things.
0:48:24 > 0:48:25Yeah, but I mean, you know...
0:48:25 > 0:48:30No politician ever really publicly states any rights that's like,
0:48:30 > 0:48:33you know, sort of chipped away, do they?
0:48:33 > 0:48:36So you feel more protected by Brussels than you do by Westminster?
0:48:36 > 0:48:39Yeah. Absolutely. In terms of workers' rights.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42What would you say to Kevin in view of how full his glass is?
0:48:42 > 0:48:47I think where Kevin's sitting in this circle is
0:48:47 > 0:48:50quite telling, really.
0:48:50 > 0:48:53I think that's a huge difference between Kevin and I.
0:48:53 > 0:48:56With all due respect, it's also as an employment lawyer and
0:48:56 > 0:48:58- HR consultant...- Here we go with the word, consultant!
0:48:58 > 0:49:01It's having a certain aspect of insight.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04There has been no conjecture, there have been no murmurs of a
0:49:04 > 0:49:07retraction of rights whatsoever within our field.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09There's been none of that.
0:49:09 > 0:49:14- I want to come to Ben.- It's not like when we leave the EU,
0:49:14 > 0:49:17suddenly we will lose all the laws that came in because of our
0:49:17 > 0:49:18membership of the European Union.
0:49:18 > 0:49:23And, actually, Britain has been leading the way when we were in the
0:49:23 > 0:49:25European Union in terms of employment law.
0:49:25 > 0:49:29But what I would like to see, that we can do now, is take on some of
0:49:29 > 0:49:33the big corporations where their power of lobbying in the
0:49:33 > 0:49:35European Union was much higher.
0:49:35 > 0:49:39There's been a lot of people at each other's throats here today
0:49:39 > 0:49:41because small businesses are employing people, but really it's
0:49:41 > 0:49:45the big corporations that are the problem because the playing field
0:49:45 > 0:49:48isn't level because they don't pay tax and everyone else does.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51So that's what we've got to address.
0:49:51 > 0:49:53And would we be better able...?
0:49:53 > 0:49:57The French have been able to bring in much more just or punitive,
0:49:57 > 0:50:00depending on your perspective, tax arrangements for companies
0:50:00 > 0:50:01that have got a softer deal here.
0:50:01 > 0:50:04So, not necessarily relevant whether in the European Union or not.
0:50:04 > 0:50:07Well, I think the majority of the country really wants to see change
0:50:07 > 0:50:10and that's the difference because now we have sovereignty over our own
0:50:10 > 0:50:12Parliament, we can force politicians to make a change.
0:50:12 > 0:50:15But the French could do that before.
0:50:15 > 0:50:18I mean, the French have a different employment system and I think in
0:50:18 > 0:50:21many ways, their employment system isn't set up for growth
0:50:21 > 0:50:22in the way ours is.
0:50:22 > 0:50:25But in terms of protecting workers' rights,
0:50:25 > 0:50:26they do have some advantages.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29The point is, we've got to realise that we have the power
0:50:29 > 0:50:32now in Britain to elect our officials.
0:50:32 > 0:50:35- Who do you speak about, "we"?- The British people.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37- Absolute nonsense.- There is an MP about to...
0:50:37 > 0:50:39I don't want to put you on the spot,
0:50:39 > 0:50:41but most people don't know who their MEP is,
0:50:41 > 0:50:43they don't know who the European commissioner is.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46- What's that got to do with it?- They don't have a direct connection with
0:50:46 > 0:50:49the people that are in power making the decisions.
0:50:49 > 0:50:51I hope that the British people really stand up now,
0:50:51 > 0:50:54bang the table and say, "These are the things we want."
0:50:54 > 0:50:57Politics at the moment, I know a lot of people don't have much faith in
0:50:57 > 0:51:00it and I don't either, but it's collapsing around us.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02We can rebuild it in the form that we want to,
0:51:02 > 0:51:06but it's up to everyone in the country to do.
0:51:06 > 0:51:09Another half full, three quarters full, perhaps, your glass.
0:51:09 > 0:51:14The lady up there. Hang on, I said, "Lady." Definitely said, "Lady."
0:51:14 > 0:51:16Actually put my hand up but I think the original question was,
0:51:16 > 0:51:19"Will Brexit lead to a pay rise for Britain?"
0:51:19 > 0:51:20I believe that it will.
0:51:20 > 0:51:22I believe it's for two different reasons.
0:51:22 > 0:51:25One, we will no longer be weighed down by the 150,000 pages of
0:51:25 > 0:51:28regulatory burden that is put on small SMEs that stop us
0:51:28 > 0:51:32from being more productive and being able to pay people more.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34And also when you look at the Bank of England's own report,
0:51:34 > 0:51:36I think it was entitled
0:51:36 > 0:51:39The Effect Of Immigration On Occupational Wages:
0:51:39 > 0:51:43Evidence For Britain. Even that report stated that mass migration,
0:51:43 > 0:51:45which should stop when we leave the European Union,
0:51:45 > 0:51:47we'll have control of our borders,
0:51:47 > 0:51:51I believe that there will be less competition for jobs which will mean
0:51:51 > 0:51:54that without so many people going for them,
0:51:54 > 0:51:55wages will inevitably rise.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57Gentleman here in the blue.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00Yeah, I don't think Brexit will give us a pay rise because...
0:52:00 > 0:52:01- Why not?- As that lady said over there,
0:52:01 > 0:52:04she talked about 150,000 regulations or something like that that we're
0:52:04 > 0:52:06going to lose if we leave.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09The thing is, a lot of the regulations are what have given us
0:52:09 > 0:52:12sufficient pay structures in the UK and leaving the European Union,
0:52:12 > 0:52:16which has often been the place of last resort for us as a country,
0:52:16 > 0:52:19to get these things that we would otherwise lose, pay,
0:52:19 > 0:52:22we will not have pay rises because a lot of these companies are going to
0:52:22 > 0:52:24go, "Right, we're out, let's do things our way."
0:52:24 > 0:52:27Let's go back to that, what are these regulations you don't like?
0:52:27 > 0:52:30What are the things you think we're going to be gloriously
0:52:30 > 0:52:33- liberated from?- Well, there's lots of them to start with.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36- I can't name any specifically. - We only need one.
0:52:36 > 0:52:41Of course. For instance, the work time directive.
0:52:41 > 0:52:45That is one. I believe that if you really want to do well in your job,
0:52:45 > 0:52:47like the guy was saying, adding value to a business...
0:52:47 > 0:52:49You can opt out of that already.
0:52:49 > 0:52:51Yeah, well, I don't think that a lot of people choose to,
0:52:51 > 0:52:55so I do believe that a lot of small SMEs... I don't own one myself,
0:52:55 > 0:52:57but I think the regulatory burden,
0:52:57 > 0:52:59I think it was estimated at over £100 billion a year.
0:52:59 > 0:53:03I don't want to labour the point but you've got to name some regulations.
0:53:03 > 0:53:05Like I was saying, the work time directive.
0:53:05 > 0:53:08I don't think that helps SMEs at all.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12So you think we are better off in?
0:53:12 > 0:53:16Without a doubt because at present...
0:53:18 > 0:53:19..we have the Labour Party...
0:53:19 > 0:53:23I've been a member of the Labour Party for 30 odd years.
0:53:23 > 0:53:27We are in crisis and the Tories, especially the right-wing,
0:53:27 > 0:53:32has seen Brexit as an excuse to destroy organised labour
0:53:32 > 0:53:38within the UK and as Jacques Delors famously said at a Labour Party
0:53:38 > 0:53:41conference, "You are better off in the EU
0:53:41 > 0:53:45"because we will protect workers' rights."
0:53:45 > 0:53:49Let's steer it back to the debate. Sam, you're in business.
0:53:49 > 0:53:51- Yep.- You're successful.
0:53:51 > 0:53:54- Mm-hmm.- Does the future look bleaker or brighter as a result of Brexit?
0:53:54 > 0:53:58Well, I think everyone in this room already answered that question,
0:53:58 > 0:54:01no-one really is expected to be much better off, I think...
0:54:01 > 0:54:04- Those people over here are.- Well, 20% of the audience said they
0:54:04 > 0:54:07thought Brexit would lead to a pay rise.
0:54:07 > 0:54:09So, I mean, 80% of people don't expect to be better off.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11It could just be optimists versus pessimists?
0:54:11 > 0:54:15I think entrepreneurial businesses, small businesses are the best and
0:54:15 > 0:54:17most adaptable people in this economy to be able to
0:54:17 > 0:54:20take advantage of the opportunities that come up.
0:54:20 > 0:54:23There is a load of businesses in the UK which are UK-to-UK,
0:54:23 > 0:54:27business-to-business companies who are burdened by EU regulation.
0:54:27 > 0:54:29They don't even trade with Europe.
0:54:29 > 0:54:34The idea that that is beneficial and the cost of the implication...
0:54:34 > 0:54:36I'm not going to sit here and pretend I know any
0:54:36 > 0:54:40- of the regulations... - But isn't that important?
0:54:40 > 0:54:43I mean, the other people who are doing the other side of this...
0:54:43 > 0:54:45If you're arguing that they're awful,
0:54:45 > 0:54:48- surely you have to be able to name one.- You've got the...
0:54:48 > 0:54:51It's a phantom thing, it's an absolute phantom thing.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54I run an SME. We have no problem with EU regulations
0:54:54 > 0:54:55or any regulations.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58- Tell me what he's doing wrong.- On top of that,
0:54:58 > 0:55:00EU migration fuels our growth.
0:55:00 > 0:55:01I didn't literally...
0:55:01 > 0:55:04We try and hire as many great cleaners as we possibly can
0:55:04 > 0:55:08to clean our business. Only 40% of our cleaners are from Britain
0:55:08 > 0:55:11and we would not be able to grow the way we can without the free movement
0:55:11 > 0:55:13- of labour. - It has been fuelled by immigration.
0:55:13 > 0:55:15I haven't got a problem with immigration in this country.
0:55:15 > 0:55:18I welcome everybody that wants to come here and work.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21I have absolutely no problem with the levels that come here as long as
0:55:21 > 0:55:24we can sustain them in our economy.
0:55:24 > 0:55:26- At the end of the day...- Go to the lady here.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29She wants to know what's wrong with the people already here.
0:55:29 > 0:55:31What's wrong with all the people?
0:55:31 > 0:55:33We've got people from all races and creeds and cultures here.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35What is wrong with them?
0:55:35 > 0:55:37Why can't they be employed?
0:55:37 > 0:55:40Stick up for British people, all of those people that are here now.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42They have to apply for the jobs.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45They don't apply, they're not going to get hired.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48I don't think it's about people who aren't applying for them.
0:55:48 > 0:55:52There is a myth in this country that there aren't enough people who can
0:55:52 > 0:55:55be skilled up. There are very intelligent people in this country,
0:55:55 > 0:55:57we are all sitting here.
0:55:58 > 0:56:00The employer should be paying for the skilling up.
0:56:00 > 0:56:03I'll just come back to Lawrence on that question.
0:56:03 > 0:56:05So Brexit for your business.
0:56:05 > 0:56:08Brexit is very, very frightening. Brexit is very, very frightening.
0:56:09 > 0:56:13A lot of our bills, we have to pay the Americans for licensing,
0:56:13 > 0:56:18hardware, so... The dollar has a big wage bill.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20I know you try to spread the money around,
0:56:20 > 0:56:22is there going to be less money to spread around?
0:56:22 > 0:56:25There is going to be less money because we aren't as strong
0:56:25 > 0:56:27- as we were...- The cost of living will drop.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29Why will the cost of living drop?
0:56:29 > 0:56:32Because we won't have to have huge parts of our countryside not being
0:56:32 > 0:56:36farmed, so the supply of agricultural goods in supermarkets
0:56:36 > 0:56:39will increase. We don't have the common tariff of the EU,
0:56:39 > 0:56:42which put a price on imports from outside the EU.
0:56:42 > 0:56:48- So basic consumer goods will go down in price.- This is not true.
0:56:48 > 0:56:52- It's not nonsense.- 55% of UK farming comes from EU subsidies.
0:56:52 > 0:56:57No, no, 55%. Where are they getting the money from?
0:56:57 > 0:57:00Future Labour governments are not going to give farmers loads of land
0:57:00 > 0:57:04money when there's people really on the bottom.
0:57:04 > 0:57:08Also, 68% of the food in the UK we eat is only made by the UK.
0:57:08 > 0:57:11We import the rest. That's going to cost us more.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15Subsidies slow down the supply side of food in society.
0:57:15 > 0:57:17- And can I say on legislation? - You can, madam, carry on.
0:57:17 > 0:57:20Thank you.
0:57:20 > 0:57:23If we want to deal in the single market,
0:57:23 > 0:57:25we have to adhere to the EU standards.
0:57:25 > 0:57:29So if we want trade with them, there's 100,000 regulations,
0:57:29 > 0:57:31- there's 40,000...- 150,000 pages.
0:57:31 > 0:57:36There are 62,000 standardisations and 40,000 legal acts, but if we
0:57:36 > 0:57:40want to trade with the single market, we have to adhere to them.
0:57:40 > 0:57:42That applies to Norway that is in the EEA,
0:57:42 > 0:57:46they have to pay tariffs on cheeses. They have more migrants than we do.
0:57:46 > 0:57:49This is not like, "Oh, yeah, we can just take the good deal."
0:57:49 > 0:57:51It's not working.
0:57:51 > 0:57:53Hey, hey, hey. You know what happens now?
0:57:53 > 0:57:57This is the bit where I point out that we've actually run out of time
0:57:57 > 0:58:01but the conversation is guaranteed to continue long after the end of
0:58:01 > 0:58:03the programme. But that really is all the time we have.
0:58:03 > 0:58:07Yes, but if you've been inspired to find out more about how Britain can
0:58:07 > 0:58:11get a pay rise, explore this and other current economic and business
0:58:11 > 0:58:16issues by going to bbc.co.uk/payrise and follow the links to the
0:58:16 > 0:58:19Open University and that's it from us.
0:58:19 > 0:58:21- Goodnight.- Night.