:00:00. > :00:00.Now on BBC News, time for a special programme about the revelations of
:00:00. > :00:07.abuse in football with Victoria
:00:08. > :00:12.Derbyshire. Three former youth players have told us about the abuse
:00:13. > :00:19.they say they suffered at the hands of their coach Barry Bennell, a
:00:20. > :00:22.paedophile. Andy Woodward told us about it in his first broadcast
:00:23. > :00:25.interview, that he had been raped hundreds of times while at Crewe
:00:26. > :00:29.Alexandra. In total, six others have come forward to waive their right to
:00:30. > :00:34.anonymity. I spoke earlier to Chris Unsworth who says he was raped
:00:35. > :00:38.between 50 and 100 times by Bennell at Manchester City and Crewe youth
:00:39. > :00:43.teams. He didn't tell a single person about if abuse for over 30
:00:44. > :00:47.years until in fact he saw our interview with Andy Woodward last
:00:48. > :00:50.week. Jason Dunford says he was abused once by Bennell at the
:00:51. > :00:59.Manchester City youth team and, when he told him to "get off" him,
:01:00. > :01:03.Bennell forced him out of the club. They both spoke publicly for the
:01:04. > :01:06.very first time today. We also spoke to Steve Walt, who says he was
:01:07. > :01:12.repeatedly abused by Bennell whilst at Crewe. This is his first TV
:01:13. > :01:16.interview. And with them was Andy Woodward, the player whose
:01:17. > :01:20.revelations have inspired others to speak out. As you would expect, our
:01:21. > :01:24.conversation with them was frank, open and covered details of sexual
:01:25. > :01:27.abuse. First of all, let me thank you so
:01:28. > :01:31.much for coming on the programme today. We really, really appreciate
:01:32. > :01:36.you talking to our audience. Chris, I'm going to start with you. When
:01:37. > :01:40.you first watched the interview with Andy last week, what effect did it
:01:41. > :01:50.have on you? A massive effect really. Just watching Andy on TV, I
:01:51. > :01:57.was just at home with my girlfriend who actually watched the TV
:01:58. > :02:02.interview and brought it home and we sat down and watched it. I didn't
:02:03. > :02:09.say anything, apart from, I knew Andy, I used to play with Andy. We
:02:10. > :02:17.had a little chat. She asked me if I was OK then I came home and I sat at
:02:18. > :02:22.home and thought about this and I thought, I've got to come forward.
:02:23. > :02:29.Got to come forward and help everybody.
:02:30. > :02:35.You had never told a soul? No. Never told anyone. Kept it locked away
:02:36. > :02:40.right in the back of my head. And still, I'm reliving things, having a
:02:41. > :02:45.chat with the boys, and reliving it. No, never told a soul.
:02:46. > :02:50.You were first introduced to Bennell when he was a scout at Manchester
:02:51. > :02:58.City. How did his abuse of you begin?
:02:59. > :03:05.It began, he used to pick me up. I was probably one of the closest lads
:03:06. > :03:10.that lived near to his house. In the Peak District? In the Peak District.
:03:11. > :03:18.He used to pick me up and the abuse started in the car. He used to
:03:19. > :03:21.touch, he used to play games in the car and that's when it all started.
:03:22. > :03:26.And that would be on the way to training? On the way to training and
:03:27. > :03:31.on the way back. Right. And then he invited you to stay over at his
:03:32. > :03:40.house? Yes. That happened a little bit later but not long after. At
:03:41. > :03:46.first there was, you know, two, three, four lads that used to stay
:03:47. > :03:51.there and there was always two or three in the bed.
:03:52. > :03:58.I'm going to ask you, Chris, what he did to you? Er... At first it
:03:59. > :04:05.started, you know, the games used to start and it was hands everywhere,
:04:06. > :04:13.then down the pants. And then later, it got more serious in the bedroom
:04:14. > :04:18.where there was penetration, things like that.
:04:19. > :04:25.And what age were you? I was about nine. And what did you, as a little
:04:26. > :04:31.boy, think was going on? I didn't know what was going on, to be fair.
:04:32. > :04:38.I just, I knew where I wanted to get and I thought, this is obviously
:04:39. > :04:43.what I've got to go through. Did you know it was wrong, what he was doing
:04:44. > :04:51.was wrong? I knew it was wrong, but I just went with it. Just went with
:04:52. > :05:00.it. Did you ever consider telling a friend, a team-mate, another adult?
:05:01. > :05:04.No, never. Why? It just wasn't the in-thing to do, it just wasn't the
:05:05. > :05:14.in this have thing to do. When you set your goals where you want to get
:05:15. > :05:19.to, it was never brought up, never. He stopped after a few years, as you
:05:20. > :05:26.got older, sort of 13, 14? Yes. When you get a bit older and you know
:05:27. > :05:32.you're growing up, you're a young adult, your body changes. That's
:05:33. > :05:40.when your time really is it with him. He'll move on to fresh blood,
:05:41. > :05:44.as they say. To younger boys effectively? Yes, to younger boys.
:05:45. > :05:51.When you got to 15, 16, you turned your back on football? I did, yes. I
:05:52. > :05:57.turned my back on football and I was lucky, saying lucky, is that the
:05:58. > :06:05.right word - I had other sports to pursue. And I turned professional
:06:06. > :06:13.golfer, so I had a sight and I had a goal and that was my escape route.
:06:14. > :06:19.Right. And you turned your back on football because you were -- because
:06:20. > :06:23.you associated it with this horror? Yes, somebody asked me that
:06:24. > :06:32.yesterday. I don't know. Was I good enough? I don't know. Looking back,
:06:33. > :06:37.I would say yes, I probably term football... I'd just had enough,
:06:38. > :06:47.that was it. I can't imagine what it's like for a young boy growing up
:06:48. > :06:55.through adolescence into adulthood and for decades keeping this kind of
:06:56. > :07:02.cataclysmic secret. No. I chatted with my friend the other night about
:07:03. > :07:07.this and you just get on with your life and you forget everything that
:07:08. > :07:16.has happened. As I say, luckily, I had my golf to go to and that guided
:07:17. > :07:24.me through I think. But I think... Both my parents have died and that
:07:25. > :07:30.hurts me. Yes. Not telling them. Does it? Yes. But I don't know if
:07:31. > :07:36.it's a good thing that I didn't tell them because they would have blamed
:07:37. > :07:44.themselves, so... Chris, thank you for telling us
:07:45. > :07:49.such, I mean such personal intimate and also horrific details. I want to
:07:50. > :07:53.bring in Steve, if I may. I wonder, Steve, what the effect on you has
:07:54. > :08:09.been of revealing this secret? It's been like a massive relief
:08:10. > :08:15.after seeing Andy, how brave he's been last week, you know, the
:08:16. > :08:20.article in The Guardian. I was in the house on my own and I read it, I
:08:21. > :08:25.was inconsolable, I thought I was going to have a panic attack because
:08:26. > :08:34.it was virtually the same scenario as me. It was just... Somehow I
:08:35. > :08:40.picked the phone up and phoned the newspaper because I was that angry
:08:41. > :08:45.andup set. But in another way, it was like the biggest relief, like I
:08:46. > :08:51.said to Andy, it was like 100 tonnes lifted off my shoulders. Really?
:08:52. > :08:56.Yes, because I've been carrying this all my life, my career's been ruined
:08:57. > :09:06.and my relationships have been ruined. Just... I had to get it out
:09:07. > :09:11.there because, you know, I've got children that this could never ever
:09:12. > :09:14.happen to any more children. You had a reputation as being one of the
:09:15. > :09:19.finest young footballers in the country as a teenager? That's right,
:09:20. > :09:27.yes. People say to me, you know, what happened to you, Steve. In a
:09:28. > :09:36.football environment, it's full of bravado and men and like, we've all
:09:37. > :09:43.met last night, you know, and our stories, you know, we are all the
:09:44. > :09:51.same. I can't believe how brave we've all been and it's just... You
:09:52. > :10:00.think he effectively snatched your footballing career away from you?
:10:01. > :10:09.Yes, that's what happened, you know. I suppose what's disappointed me
:10:10. > :10:12.really is, craics, you know, I -- Crewe Alexandra, you know, Plymouth,
:10:13. > :10:17.my dad's dead now but he ended up working at Crewe as well and my
:10:18. > :10:20.parents put trust into that football club and basically they've let us
:10:21. > :10:24.down. All of us.
:10:25. > :10:30.Can you explain to our audience, Steve, why you were afraid to tell
:10:31. > :10:38.anyone? I've always had... I've had problems
:10:39. > :10:46.with relationships with men because I've always thought that, you know,
:10:47. > :10:51.am I gay, you know. What's happened to us, he's made us feel like that,
:10:52. > :10:57.you know, that's not right, you know. It's affected every single
:10:58. > :11:04.relationship I've had with anybody but it's just so hard to explain.
:11:05. > :11:08.It's so difficult, honestly. In the early 90s, the police did
:11:09. > :11:11.talk to you didn't they, when they started to investigate Barry
:11:12. > :11:19.Bennell? Yes, that's correct, yes. They came to my house on three
:11:20. > :11:23.separate occasions and my career was, you know, I got told I was
:11:24. > :11:31.never going to play football again so somehow I managed to carry on and
:11:32. > :11:37.ended up playing in the conference but I still wanted that dream. I
:11:38. > :11:49.wanted to fight this and beat this. If I did come out, would people
:11:50. > :11:53.believe you, you know, if you come out with the accusations, so to
:11:54. > :11:59.speak, would anybody believe you and would you get the support that we've
:12:00. > :12:04.had at the moment. Back then you just did not know.
:12:05. > :12:09.No. Jason, compared to Andy, Steve and Chris, you describe yourself as
:12:10. > :12:14.lucky. Explain to our audience why you say that? I feel lucky because,
:12:15. > :12:20.at the moment of what is determined now as sexual assault, I told him
:12:21. > :12:24.where to go. I confronted him and, as I told the boys last night, I'll
:12:25. > :12:31.never forget the deathly stare. And this was in his house? No, no, no,
:12:32. > :12:38.this was in a holiday camp at Butlins. Yes. And that stare was one
:12:39. > :12:42.of, I can never ever forget that stare, but from that day forward I
:12:43. > :12:47.knew my life was going to be really difficult with this guy. Because you
:12:48. > :12:56.told him to effectively told him where to go? I told him to F-off. I
:12:57. > :13:03.remember physically hitting him. Of which there was no retaliation from
:13:04. > :13:09.the guy. As a 13-year-old boy, 14, you know, nearly 14 years of age, I
:13:10. > :13:14.was the same as every boy in the city. I had a dream of being a
:13:15. > :13:18.footballer and every child who has a dream to me should be able to try
:13:19. > :13:27.and achieve that dream without having to go through sexual abuse or
:13:28. > :13:34.being around sexual predators. Barry Bennell to me was not only a
:13:35. > :13:39.dangerous man and he still is a dangerous man, but most of the lads
:13:40. > :13:45.that were involved in his coaching and being involved in the squads
:13:46. > :13:49.that he coached over the years, will find this very difficult and
:13:50. > :13:56.hopefully by what's going on, we are going to get some results.
:13:57. > :14:00.When you told him where to go, he then started the mind games, said he
:14:01. > :14:03.was going to play you, drop you, you would turn up at games on Sunday,
:14:04. > :14:06.your mum would drive however many miles and you would be standing on
:14:07. > :14:10.the sidelines and never get on and that was the start of him trying to
:14:11. > :14:15.isolate you. What else did he do, Jason? Yes, he detached me from the
:14:16. > :14:20.group by playing mind games with me. But like the lads have said, because
:14:21. > :14:24.you're following a dream, you're prepared to go through with it. The
:14:25. > :14:30.difference of why I feel different to these lads is that I wasn't
:14:31. > :14:34.prepared to put up with that. I loved the game of football, I
:14:35. > :14:37.thought to myself, there's other ways around this, Barry Bennell is
:14:38. > :14:42.the be-all-and-end-all of getting me to where I want to two and, if I
:14:43. > :14:46.have to go round the houses, I'll go to another team, I'll try something
:14:47. > :14:55.a bit different because, as he tried to detach me from the group by
:14:56. > :14:59.fabricating stories of me amongst my team-mates... Well, he said you
:15:00. > :15:07.stole money from one of your team-mates didn't he? Yes, he took
:15:08. > :15:12.us to Norfolk for a Canary Cup tournament when, at the time my dad
:15:13. > :15:17.was a working class man, he had to pay for this, there was no trophy at
:15:18. > :15:23.the end, the team had been dropped, defeated and my father said to me,
:15:24. > :15:26.why haven't you played and I said, well, do you really want to tell
:15:27. > :15:32.your parents that you have been accused of a thief. I want to ask
:15:33. > :15:40.you guys if Andy hadn't spoken out, would you have ever come forward?
:15:41. > :15:48.Not in a million years. I keep telling Andy this, what he's done is
:15:49. > :15:53.so brave, inspirational. In my opinion, in our opinion, for what
:15:54. > :16:03.he's done now, it's absolutely fantastic what he's done. So brave,
:16:04. > :16:08.you know. I'll call him like my new brother, you know. What would you
:16:09. > :16:12.say, Chris? It was locked way back in my mind
:16:13. > :16:17.and I'd forgotten about it. I would never have come forward if I hadn't
:16:18. > :16:20.have seen Andy on telly. But what was it about him speaking about his
:16:21. > :16:27.experiences that inspired you to do the same? Just because I know what
:16:28. > :16:30.he has been through because I've been through exactly the same and
:16:31. > :16:35.all the lads have been through the same. This has got to stop. The only
:16:36. > :16:40.way that I could help is to come forward. You seem quite strong,
:16:41. > :16:45.Chris, if you don't mind me saying? Yes, a lot of people have said that.
:16:46. > :16:51.But I don't know if I'm that strong, I don't know. Deep down I don't
:16:52. > :16:55.think I am, but I'm now, I'm a funeral director, I see lots of
:16:56. > :16:58.horrible things, so that's probably made me a little bit stronger than
:16:59. > :17:05.the rest of the lads. What would you say to Andy? I love Andy to bits and
:17:06. > :17:11.I'm here because of him. Andy, you've done a quite remarkable
:17:12. > :17:16.thing, you know. I'm just totally overwhelmed, you
:17:17. > :17:24.know. Last week, I was on here, I was on my own and I was so scared. I
:17:25. > :17:29.knew that they were here. Honest to God, Victoria, I can't thank the
:17:30. > :17:33.public enough and the media. And more importantly, the lads for
:17:34. > :17:45.backing me up, you know. I'm just totally overwhelmed. Yes. I want to
:17:46. > :17:48.ask you all about parents, your parents letting you stay over at a
:17:49. > :17:57.coach's house. I would like to think that would never happen today. What
:17:58. > :18:01.was different about back then? From my perspective, I'll come
:18:02. > :18:06.together now, from my perspective, I've said it before in other
:18:07. > :18:10.interviews that the parents didn't know, they didn't know. They are
:18:11. > :18:15.also victims in this, you know. Absolutely. I had mum and dad in
:18:16. > :18:18.tears last night because they actually realised for the first time
:18:19. > :18:27.that they're actually victims as well in this. And they are. Is it
:18:28. > :18:36.feasible that other adults at the time really didn't know what was
:18:37. > :18:40.happening? Impossible. Football clubs I don't believe it for one
:18:41. > :18:44.minute. I believe there was a conspiracy, there was a paedophile
:18:45. > :18:49.ring and there was people at those football clubs that had duty to look
:18:50. > :18:54.after the welfare of young boys coming through their system. This is
:18:55. > :18:57.their potential future stars and their future stars are being
:18:58. > :18:59.sexually abused and sexually assaulted by a member of their
:19:00. > :19:02.staff. Steve, what do you think? Is it
:19:03. > :19:17.possible other adults really didn't know? I don't honestly know. Until
:19:18. > :19:22.Bennell's arrest? I honestly don't know, to be honest with you. Chris?
:19:23. > :19:28.I think members of the club, they knew what was going on. They knew
:19:29. > :19:32.what was going on. Are you talking about senior players? Senior
:19:33. > :19:43.players. Senior management? Senior management. And the top as well. Is
:19:44. > :19:47.this as big as Savile? I think Savile looks like a choir boy
:19:48. > :19:54.compared to this fella and what's going on right now, let me tell you.
:19:55. > :20:00.This is so big. As I said on Channel 4 last night, I'll tell you a story
:20:01. > :20:05.that this is chilling this. Somebody rang me up and said, do you remember
:20:06. > :20:08.going to Gran Canaria and I did it myself as well and he said, there
:20:09. > :20:14.was seven of us that went away and he said, do you know what, we went
:20:15. > :20:21.for seven days, with seven of us and he had one every night. Do you know
:20:22. > :20:29.why you didn't talk to each other as boys? Back then? It wasn't the thing
:20:30. > :20:32.to be done, was it, lads? No. From being 11 years of age, you didn't
:20:33. > :20:39.discuss things like that. Because the dream would have burst. Lads
:20:40. > :20:44.just concentrated on improving football. There is one Victoria, to
:20:45. > :20:50.show you that this is how it was, a written rule. I remember being on a
:20:51. > :20:55.train at the age of 13 and I've spoken to this lad and he's 25 --
:20:56. > :20:58.it's 25 years since he's come out. We were sat on a train and he said,
:20:59. > :21:05.do you remember Woody, do you remember and he looked at me and I
:21:06. > :21:09.looked at him and we both knew and we eye contacted and he said you
:21:10. > :21:15.knew didn't you and I said yes, I knew, but the rest, we didn't talk
:21:16. > :21:20.to each other. Could it have been prevented?
:21:21. > :21:36.Yes. Chris? I think yes, it could have been prevented, but way back
:21:37. > :21:42.then, there was no laws. No. You just went with it. Up until 1990
:21:43. > :21:47.whenever it was when he was first arrested, if you would have done a
:21:48. > :21:51.background check in those days as it is today, it might have been OK
:21:52. > :21:57.because he wasn't caught so what we are saying is, is we have got a
:21:58. > :22:04.system in place at the moment whereby one of trust until you
:22:05. > :22:09.become an offenders which obviously carries victims, then you can get
:22:10. > :22:15.away with whatever you want to do. After Bennell's conviction in 1998
:22:16. > :22:19.and George Ormond in 2002, that's the Newcastle United connection, as
:22:20. > :22:24.far as I can see there was no effort made by any club or the FA to try to
:22:25. > :22:27.investigate whether there were other alleged victims, whether there were
:22:28. > :22:31.other offenders. What do you think of that?
:22:32. > :22:37.Chris? I think it's shocking. Shocking. It's like everything that
:22:38. > :22:43.we'd been through has been brushed under the carpet. And this is why we
:22:44. > :22:48.are here today, to bring it out and to make people aware and hopefully
:22:49. > :22:54.others will come out and join us. Yes. Steve, what do you think about
:22:55. > :22:58.the fact that there was no wider inquiry from those within football
:22:59. > :23:07.to try to find out if others had been affected? To be honest, I'm
:23:08. > :23:13.gobsmacked really. All the organisations that are supposed to
:23:14. > :23:21.be responsible for football and looking after children, they've got
:23:22. > :23:26.a duty to protect us so all the appropriate authorities, you know,
:23:27. > :23:32.down to the police and everybody, the whole of football just needs
:23:33. > :23:41.ripping apart and, as I said before, this can never, ever happen to any
:23:42. > :23:46.young footballer again. You know, us four, we have been
:23:47. > :23:49.brave enough to come out now. We are all going through a lot of pain at
:23:50. > :23:56.the moment, but if we can prevent anything else happening to any other
:23:57. > :24:00.young children, you know, me personally, I'll die a happy man.
:24:01. > :24:12.What do you want to happen now, Andy? I've got this endeavour to go
:24:13. > :24:16.with this and I'm not going to stop. I've spoke to the FA and it's a
:24:17. > :24:24.passion inside my stomach that I'm going to do everything I can to help
:24:25. > :24:28.those young kids. I won't stop. It's like Steve said, I will die a happy
:24:29. > :24:33.man now and I'm going to do everything I can possibly to help
:24:34. > :24:38.people and all I've ever wanted in life was to help people. You know,
:24:39. > :24:43.for me as well, I'm so emotional because last week I was sat in here
:24:44. > :24:49.on my own and now I've got these guys and I've got so many people
:24:50. > :24:53.that have worked so hard this last week and I just encourage, I know
:24:54. > :24:54.there's more out there, Victoria, I