:00:00. > :00:00.we head towards Christmas Day itself. Some unsettled conditions to
:00:00. > :00:00.come, but before that we have a crisp and bright weekend.
:00:00. > :00:08.Now more on the story that's been dominating the week's news.
:00:09. > :00:10.On the face of it, it sounds like just another
:00:11. > :00:12.Government initiative, with a suitably dull name -
:00:13. > :00:17.In reality, it has become the biggest financial scandal ever
:00:18. > :00:25.More than ?400 million of your money committed over the next 20 years
:00:26. > :00:28.to subsidise the uptake of renewable energy.
:00:29. > :00:30.The problem is that there was no cap.
:00:31. > :00:33.The more you burned, the more you earned.
:00:34. > :00:38.Hundreds of millions of pounds of public money
:00:39. > :00:49.The question is, why wasn't it closed down
:00:50. > :00:53.Instead, it was kept open and when news came last autumn
:00:54. > :00:59.that the subsidy was to be reduced there was a rush to get in.
:01:00. > :01:00.There was a massive spike in applications,
:01:01. > :01:04.accounting for almost half the total projected spend.
:01:05. > :01:06.The claim is that that autumn deadline was extended
:01:07. > :01:12.despite warnings and because of political pressure.
:01:13. > :01:15.How was it all allowed to get so far?
:01:16. > :01:18.Tonight, the DUP MLA and former minister Jonathan Bell
:01:19. > :01:21.goes on the record to, in his own words, tell the truth
:01:22. > :01:25.about what he believes actually happened.
:01:26. > :01:28.We'll hear that interview with me in just a moment and then we'll get
:01:29. > :01:31.the response of the First Minister, Arlene Foster, who spoke to me
:01:32. > :01:37.So, let's hear what Jonathan Bell had to say.
:01:38. > :01:59.We ask that by the power of the holy spirit that you will direct him in
:02:00. > :02:05.all that they think and say, that at the end of the day we all will have
:02:06. > :02:07.been done for the glory of Christ. Father, here are our prayer, for
:02:08. > :02:23.Christ's sake. I have undertaken before God that I
:02:24. > :02:26.will tell you the truth. Yes, hundreds of millions of pounds has
:02:27. > :02:33.been committed and significant amounts of money has been spent. I
:02:34. > :02:37.am authorising every detail, every document, every civil service
:02:38. > :02:41.document that I signed, every submission that I signed, to be made
:02:42. > :02:47.publicly available and to be examined exactly as the truth I now
:02:48. > :02:51.give you. And you are saying, I will go into the detail in a second, you
:02:52. > :03:00.are saying you believe this scandal was avoidable? Is that your
:03:01. > :03:05.position? Yes. Let's start then, when you became minister, May 2000
:03:06. > :03:09.and 15. Day one, were you aware of this? No. There was nothing
:03:10. > :03:17.mentioned that was urgent. How do you feel about that? It should have
:03:18. > :03:21.been closed on day one. Why? Hundreds of millions of pounds have
:03:22. > :03:26.been overspent which will have to be clawed back out of schools,
:03:27. > :03:29.hospitals and roads. You believe there was an awareness in May that
:03:30. > :03:33.this was a problem? There should have been an awareness of the cost
:03:34. > :03:40.of the scheme. That should have been brought to my attention as Minister,
:03:41. > :03:48.with an urgency and to be immediately addressed. That was in
:03:49. > :03:53.May. Let's move to June, because there was a significant event in
:03:54. > :03:57.June 2015 involving the permanent Secretary, Andrew McCormick. What
:03:58. > :04:02.happened? The permanent secretary, who, let me say is a person, of all
:04:03. > :04:07.the times I have worked with him, is a man of the utmost integrity, one
:04:08. > :04:13.of the finest servants of the civil service that the public could ask
:04:14. > :04:20.for, he came to me and raised with me concerns over the scheme. What
:04:21. > :04:25.did he say? That the scheme would overspend. They were not sure by how
:04:26. > :04:29.much. It was difficult to calculate. Was he expressing low-level concern,
:04:30. > :04:34.or was he very concerned, or what was his demeanour? Significant
:04:35. > :04:38.concern with the scheme. And the advice I was being given was that we
:04:39. > :04:44.could manage this if we reduce the tariff. Just to be clear, when we
:04:45. > :04:48.are talking about closing the scheme, there two parts to the
:04:49. > :04:52.scheme. For this section we are talking about, we are talking about
:04:53. > :04:56.closing the lucrative part of the scheme, the part where there was
:04:57. > :05:00.only one tariff being paid out to the public, and the more you burned,
:05:01. > :05:07.the more you learned. So why didn't you close it? Because his
:05:08. > :05:12.explanation was that now these concerns were raised, it takes a
:05:13. > :05:18.month period to process a submission, for me to address, and
:05:19. > :05:23.that we would do that immediately, we would take action on it
:05:24. > :05:29.immediately. Did you? We did. There was a submission on record, which
:05:30. > :05:34.they have allowed me to see but not to photo copy, and that submission
:05:35. > :05:40.will show a date in the very early part of September signed Jonathan
:05:41. > :05:47.Bell, where I sought to reduce the tariff. So you sought to close that
:05:48. > :05:53.part of the lucrative scheme. Yes. And you are the minister in charge.
:05:54. > :05:57.Yes. And my signature, at the earliest possible date, I believe,
:05:58. > :06:05.is on a document currently with the Department of the economy, signed by
:06:06. > :06:17.me, at the most immediate point. When? September 2000 and 15. So why
:06:18. > :06:24.didn't they? The DUP involve themselves in the process. Special
:06:25. > :06:29.advisers? These are the key advisers within government. They are senior
:06:30. > :06:34.people, senior political advisers. I was then informed by my special
:06:35. > :06:39.adviser in the Department that other DUP special advisers were not
:06:40. > :06:44.allowing the scheme to be closed. That is a big allegation. It is a
:06:45. > :06:51.fact. Not allowing it to be closed. This is a fact. How had they the
:06:52. > :06:55.power? This is a fact that will not only be borne out by me, but I had
:06:56. > :06:59.discussions with my permanent secretary at the time. And the
:07:00. > :07:04.explanation was that these other special advisers, I had to act by
:07:05. > :07:10.what they term collective responsibility. In the words of my
:07:11. > :07:14.permanent secretary, this is the way government works. If the other
:07:15. > :07:22.special advisers are saying the scheme has to be delayed, then you
:07:23. > :07:26.cannot, you have to work in collective responsibility with them.
:07:27. > :07:33.Which department are you talking about have the power to overrule
:07:34. > :07:36.you? The office of the First Minister's special advisers, and the
:07:37. > :07:44.Department of Finance and personnel special advisers. Do you know for a
:07:45. > :07:48.fact that they influenced the scheme staying open? Here is the fact that
:07:49. > :07:55.I do know which reveals it. The deputy permanent secretary of my
:07:56. > :08:01.department, Chris Stewart, asked for something that was highly unusual
:08:02. > :08:05.and only done once in the five years that I sat in the executive. He
:08:06. > :08:13.asked to meet the minister, as he is entitled to do, to whistle-blower on
:08:14. > :08:17.a one-to-one basis. What did he say? He said the purpose of me being here
:08:18. > :08:24.today, and for you not having even your own special adviser with you,
:08:25. > :08:29.is, minister, we have two advise you that, without your knowledge, the
:08:30. > :08:39.special adviser in your department has been asked by the other special
:08:40. > :08:43.advisers to remove references to Arlene Foster, the First Minister,
:08:44. > :08:48.and to the Department of Finance and personnel. I have spoken about this
:08:49. > :08:54.subsequently to the permanent secretary, who has verified all of
:08:55. > :09:00.this and is prepared, if asked, to put it formally on the record in an
:09:01. > :09:04.enquiry. I have asked for the changes that were sought to be made,
:09:05. > :09:11.when I said to him, how can I see the evidence of what your deputy
:09:12. > :09:16.permanent secretary was telling me, he said, there is an e-mail Trail. I
:09:17. > :09:20.cannot show you the e-mail trail because you are only entitled to see
:09:21. > :09:24.the final e-mail. But he said, you will see the that there were to take
:09:25. > :09:30.out the references to office of First Minister and the Department of
:09:31. > :09:37.Finance and personnel. Fact. Now, why would they want to do that? That
:09:38. > :09:40.is for them to answer. Why do you think? You have told me you were
:09:41. > :09:46.going to tell me the truth from your heart today. I can tell you the
:09:47. > :09:50.truth from my heart. I cannot tell you what they're thinking and
:09:51. > :09:55.motivation was. Personally, I was deeply, deeply hurt that, as a
:09:56. > :10:01.minister, the supposed number one in that department, the person who the
:10:02. > :10:10.buck stops with, that without my knowledge, and without my consent,
:10:11. > :10:14.this attempt was made. It took a whistle-blower, a person of
:10:15. > :10:22.considerable integrity, to brief me as Minister that this was happening.
:10:23. > :10:27.So why was the scheme kept open? I have asked questions. Can I say...
:10:28. > :10:31.Lets not come off this point. What is your belief of why this scheme
:10:32. > :10:34.was kept open, because we are now getting into the period where
:10:35. > :10:39.hundreds of millions of pounds of the money of the people watching
:10:40. > :10:44.this programme was committed to. I want you to tell me, why do you
:10:45. > :10:50.believe this was kept open? I believe the scheme was kept open
:10:51. > :10:54.wrongly, inappropriately, and when I commit to telling the truth, I am
:10:55. > :11:02.not prepared to speculate why other people did what they did. Factually,
:11:03. > :11:07.it is on the record. I wanted to close the scheme on the 1st of
:11:08. > :11:11.October. The outside interference of the special advisers in short the
:11:12. > :11:18.scheme was kept open another four weeks. Who? They will have to detail
:11:19. > :11:20.that. My understanding from my own special adviser at the time and also
:11:21. > :11:28.from the belief of the permanent secretary was that it was the
:11:29. > :11:34.special advisers in the First Minister's office, and also the
:11:35. > :11:38.special adviser... Who? The name given to me from the First
:11:39. > :11:42.Minister's office was Timothy Johnson, and from the Department of
:11:43. > :11:45.Finance and personnel, of which Arlene Foster was the First
:11:46. > :11:51.Minister, was Doctor Andrew Crawford. These are astonishing
:11:52. > :11:54.allegations you are making and I want to go over this again. You are
:11:55. > :12:01.telling me that the special adviser to the First Minister, when she was
:12:02. > :12:05.the minister in the Department for Finance and personnel, you are
:12:06. > :12:12.telling me that special adviser attempted to keep this scheme open
:12:13. > :12:17.against your will? Yes. Timothy Johnson is one of the most senior
:12:18. > :12:24.people in the DUP. He is at the heart of your party. Timothy Johnson
:12:25. > :12:33.is the most senior adviser in the DUP. And has been for a long time.
:12:34. > :12:40.What are you saying about him? I am saying, factually, as the record
:12:41. > :12:45.will bear out, I sought to close the scheme on the first of Toba to a
:12:46. > :12:50.lower tariff, which would have left us in a manageable situation. -- the
:12:51. > :12:55.1st of October. I was informed by my special adviser I wouldn't be
:12:56. > :13:03.allowed to do it. Here is the implication of this. October, 429
:13:04. > :13:10.more applications. Your money, a projected ?250 million. November,
:13:11. > :13:16.the scheme continued until November 17. This is the lucrative part of
:13:17. > :13:25.the scheme. Those first two and a half weeks, 452 applications,
:13:26. > :13:35.another 235 Ian pounds your money committed over a 20 year period. --
:13:36. > :13:39.235 Lean pounds. ?485 million of your money, and you are telling me
:13:40. > :13:45.that is because special advisers, against your will, kept this open.
:13:46. > :13:49.Yes. And I can tell you more. The permanent secretary has confirmed to
:13:50. > :13:55.me in recent days, because I said, why could my instruction as Minister
:13:56. > :13:59.not be followed? He said, it is the way the government works in Northern
:14:00. > :14:02.Ireland, that when the other special advisers interfere, you must work by
:14:03. > :14:07.collective responsibility. He would not have been able to do it alone.
:14:08. > :14:10.Have you evidence that the Department of Finance and personnel,
:14:11. > :14:18.when Arlene Foster was Minister, knew about the soaring numbers in
:14:19. > :14:24.this scheme? And the financial problems that this would cause? My
:14:25. > :14:30.understanding is when my permanent secretary was telling me this, that
:14:31. > :14:34.it is inconceivable that the permanent secretary in my view,
:14:35. > :14:38.David Stirling, would not have been telling the Department of Finance
:14:39. > :14:43.and personnel of the nature of this. And do you believe the special
:14:44. > :14:46.adviser in Arlene Foster's department at the time, her special
:14:47. > :14:53.adviser, do you believe he was acting with her knowledge? I only
:14:54. > :14:58.speak factually, and I wasn't there for any of those meetings so I
:14:59. > :15:01.cannot comment. What I can comment on is, factually, my permanent
:15:02. > :15:06.secretary informs me that when a special adviser of a minister
:15:07. > :15:14.informs the Department, the rules are that they are taking it as the
:15:15. > :15:19.instructions of the minister. What about the office of First Minister?
:15:20. > :15:23.The same applies. That is what my permanent secretary is telling me.
:15:24. > :15:29.He is clear that the reason the scheme was delayed, on the record,
:15:30. > :15:34.was because of the outside influences and interferences of the
:15:35. > :15:37.DUP special advisers. Why did and you fight on the half of the people
:15:38. > :15:42.of this country in October and November, when you knew this was out
:15:43. > :15:48.of control, because you were saying the numbers were there, right? I was
:15:49. > :15:52.not getting daily updates. You had no notion in October or November
:15:53. > :15:56.that anything was wrong? Andrew McCormick told you in June he had
:15:57. > :16:01.concerns and wanted it closed by September. Why didn't you fight for
:16:02. > :16:05.us, Jonathan? Don't say things can't be true. What Andrew McCormick told
:16:06. > :16:11.me in June is true. What I have told you is true. I was not given, and
:16:12. > :16:16.there is a record of this, I was not given a daily update, or a weekly
:16:17. > :16:21.update. You knew something was wrong. That's true, which is
:16:22. > :16:30.different. You should have had concern. Why didn't you? I had major
:16:31. > :16:33.concerns. Why didn't you shout? The permanent Secretary told me, you are
:16:34. > :16:36.under collective responsibility as a minister in this government, and as
:16:37. > :16:41.part of ministerial collective responsible itty, you cannot breach
:16:42. > :16:46.those codes. What I did at the time was I did raise my concerns. Those
:16:47. > :16:53.concerns are on the record, and I was also told that I was overruled.
:16:54. > :16:54.The Minister of the department was overruled by the outside special
:16:55. > :17:11.advisers. Arlene Foster might be saying this
:17:12. > :17:14.is revisionist history. I will make all the documents and facts
:17:15. > :17:18.available because I'm given to understand that if I make a referral
:17:19. > :17:22.to the commissioner for standards every document every e-mail,
:17:23. > :17:29.everything that is currently being withheld from me is available to
:17:30. > :17:34.them. I don't want revisionist history, I want a public enquiry,
:17:35. > :17:41.Judge Laird, to examine every single document I am giving complete
:17:42. > :17:47.permission, everything to do with me and my department, every document,
:17:48. > :17:50.every submission, to be let out. You will see factually that every
:17:51. > :17:55.document will stack up the truth that I'm telling you today. Arlene
:17:56. > :18:00.Foster has been saying over recent days that she has nothing to hide
:18:01. > :18:05.and she is very much putting the Spotlight on the officials, those
:18:06. > :18:08.officials she says, she passed the whistle-blower's concerns onto those
:18:09. > :18:14.officials and she has nothing to hide. Do you believe she is hiding
:18:15. > :18:20.something? I believe my officials when they tell me there is a
:18:21. > :18:26.documented e-mail trail which shows an attempt behind my back without
:18:27. > :18:32.the knowledge of the Minister of the department, to cleanse the record,
:18:33. > :18:41.my officials are not only telling me at that time. Either way, when it
:18:42. > :18:48.told me at the time, I did inform my party leader, Arlene Foster, my
:18:49. > :18:54.Deputy Leader, Nigel Dodds, and Lord Morrow, the chairman of the party,
:18:55. > :19:00.in writing of my concerns because it was so serious. You have known her a
:19:01. > :19:08.long time. Arlene and I go way back to 1989 when we were students at
:19:09. > :19:15.Queens University together. I think I was one of, if not the first
:19:16. > :19:24.person, to sign her nomination. When she became leader, I told her she
:19:25. > :19:29.had my full support. She had 100% loyalty and service from me. Does
:19:30. > :19:36.she have that now? I am in a position of major and massive pain.
:19:37. > :19:42.The truth overrides anything else. Doctor Paisley once taught us, you
:19:43. > :19:51.must tell the truth should the heavens fall. This is not easy for
:19:52. > :19:56.me. In any way. We are now at January 2016, and the reason why
:19:57. > :20:01.this period is critical is because the Treasury in this month had sent
:20:02. > :20:04.notice to the government in Northern Ireland that they were not picking
:20:05. > :20:15.up the bill for this renewable heating scheme overspent, correct?
:20:16. > :20:20.January? I went to close it immediately. Why? For the reasons
:20:21. > :20:24.you just said. The Treasury is telling us. The advice from the
:20:25. > :20:29.Treasury, the advice from my permanent secretary. What did he
:20:30. > :20:32.say? Than it was to the effect that it was so significant it was
:20:33. > :20:37.unsustainable and needs to be closed immediately. I fully agree with him
:20:38. > :20:41.on the basis of the evidence that I analysed and reviewed. In fact, what
:20:42. > :20:46.he said to me was you have to close the scheme and I am no longer
:20:47. > :20:51.prepared to deal with these outside influences. I am putting this on the
:20:52. > :20:58.record to you. What Andrew said to me was, if you want me to continue
:20:59. > :21:03.the scheme as your principal civil servant, you must issue me with the
:21:04. > :21:10.ministerial directive to keep the scheme open. I said to him, Andrew,
:21:11. > :21:15.I will guarantee you I will not issue, and never issued him ever
:21:16. > :21:21.with the ministerial directive to keep the scheme open. I refused. And
:21:22. > :21:25.yet this scheme did not close. What happened was I went away and I was
:21:26. > :21:32.informed on a confidential business trip and I was trying to secure jobs
:21:33. > :21:35.for Northern Ireland, that the First Minister of Northern Ireland was
:21:36. > :21:41.ordering me to keep the scheme open. So by this stage, and this is
:21:42. > :21:45.January 2016, by this stage Arlene Foster is the First Minister of our
:21:46. > :21:55.country and you fly back from your trip abroad. What happens the next
:21:56. > :22:02.day? I leave Canada on the beginning of February, I think, though state
:22:03. > :22:06.to run record. I refused Arlene's instruction to keep it open because
:22:07. > :22:09.I refuse to give the ministerial directive because I will as the
:22:10. > :22:14.permanent Secretary do something wrong, to get him to do something
:22:15. > :22:21.wrong in the face of all the evidence. I flew back from Montreal
:22:22. > :22:26.to London. In the early hours of the morning, six o'clock, I was on the
:22:27. > :22:30.9:20am flight back to Belfast. I went straight home, changed my suit
:22:31. > :22:39.and had a shower, and I was the answer questions at two p.m.. I was
:22:40. > :22:45.ordered to appear in front of the First Minister before my Question
:22:46. > :22:51.Time. In the strongest terms both in volume and force. Arlene Foster
:22:52. > :22:57.overruled me and told me to scape -- told me to keep the scheme open.
:22:58. > :23:06.Described the scene in her office. I went in and sitting in front of her
:23:07. > :23:09.desk at that stage I think the word to special advisers, Stephen
:23:10. > :23:13.Brimstone and Richard Bullick in the room. What she controlled? She was
:23:14. > :23:19.highly agitated and angry because I had been refusing over the last
:23:20. > :23:22.period and telling them I was not going to do this. Give me more of a
:23:23. > :23:34.sense of the atmosphere in that room. Hostile. Fear. It was abusive.
:23:35. > :23:40.Abusive in what way? She is sitting down just talking to you? Know, she
:23:41. > :23:46.shouted at me at me to keep the skin open. She shouted so much that
:23:47. > :23:55.Timothy Johnston came into the room. That is her special adviser? Yes.
:23:56. > :24:04.She said I had to keep it open, but I was strongly saying I would not.
:24:05. > :24:07.The image you are portraying on this programme is that our First Minister
:24:08. > :24:12.in her room was shouting at you. Voices raised, ordering me to reopen
:24:13. > :24:17.the scheme. It caused me a lot of problems because people know that I
:24:18. > :24:20.have closed it, and I turned to the special advisers and said, you knew
:24:21. > :24:25.I was closing this, what on earth are you thinking of reopening it?
:24:26. > :24:30.They sat and dropped their heads, they had no answers. You must have
:24:31. > :24:38.asked the First Minister, Arlene Foster, Wiley, you must have said
:24:39. > :24:44.wide? We are night at about 1:20pm, I had flown through the night,
:24:45. > :24:50.hadn't been to bed in 24 hours and at 2pm I am to appear at the
:24:51. > :24:55.dispatch box for 45 minutes to answer questions. The
:24:56. > :25:03.determination... I was determined to tell her that I would not and never
:25:04. > :25:06.have, and I doubt he ever will, issue a ministerial directive to
:25:07. > :25:12.tell a civil servant to do something which in my heart of hearts I
:25:13. > :25:17.believe to be wrong. There is of course a counter narrative to this,
:25:18. > :25:22.which is as many other political parties were doing at that time,
:25:23. > :25:26.demanding, calling for the scheme to be kept open and Arlene Foster may
:25:27. > :25:31.very well have been of this view, to be fair to her, that people
:25:32. > :25:39.throughout Northern Ireland had invested in these boilers or had
:25:40. > :25:42.orders in place or have legitimate businesses, many legitimate
:25:43. > :25:46.businesses, to use this environmentally friendly products,
:25:47. > :25:51.and that might be why she was insisting to you that I want this
:25:52. > :25:58.kept open. This was a luxury that was not only not affordable, but to
:25:59. > :26:04.fulfil what was legally contracted you were going to have to take that
:26:05. > :26:10.money from the future budget for generations of Northern Ireland. You
:26:11. > :26:15.have a problem with my next question. Any question I will
:26:16. > :26:19.answer. You walked out of that room and you told the Assembly, you told
:26:20. > :26:23.the public of Northern Ireland, that the right thing to do was to extend
:26:24. > :26:30.the scheme, to keep it open. That was out of your mouth. You have a
:26:31. > :26:35.problem. The way the government works is you have all of your
:26:36. > :26:40.arguments and all of your difficulties behind closed doors. At
:26:41. > :26:47.the way collective responsibility works is that no matter how fears
:26:48. > :26:52.the argument, no matter the bullying or whatever it is, the final
:26:53. > :26:56.decision is then defended by all of the ministers, that is collective
:26:57. > :27:00.responsibility. He said that I have decided to defer closure for two
:27:01. > :27:07.weeks. Under the orders of the First Minister. I can't overrule it. I
:27:08. > :27:13.can't overrule it. But you could have worked into that assembly...
:27:14. > :27:16.The regret that I ultimately have now when we are seeing terminally
:27:17. > :27:23.ill children being sent home from hospital is that I didn't resign. I
:27:24. > :27:30.am sorry I didn't resign. I am sorry now that hundreds of millions of
:27:31. > :27:32.pounds... Yes, I was overruled, Jessica can collective
:27:33. > :27:37.responsibility, yes the triple back-up everything I say, but I am
:27:38. > :27:40.sorry I didn't resign. Do you apologise to the people of Northern
:27:41. > :27:47.Ireland for the money that was committed to be spent over a 20 year
:27:48. > :27:53.period? I apologise for that, for that which I was responsible for.
:27:54. > :27:57.Deeply, I am most profoundly sorry. Do you think Arlene Foster, your
:27:58. > :28:02.party leader, goes the people of this country an apology? I think we
:28:03. > :28:11.should all hang our heads in shame. Should she? All of us. She is the
:28:12. > :28:15.First Minister, she was the minister in charge of the departments when
:28:16. > :28:19.this process was designed. You have gone over the process. It is a
:28:20. > :28:25.direct question about Arlene. Do you think she was the people of this
:28:26. > :28:30.country an apology? Yes. For what? For the fact that the scheme was
:28:31. > :28:35.allowed to run, for the fact that special advisers were allowed to
:28:36. > :28:41.overruled me. I am apologising for what I wanted to do, which was close
:28:42. > :28:46.on the 1st of October. I am not apologising for those who overruled
:28:47. > :28:49.me. Here is the rub, we are hurting the most vulnerable people in
:28:50. > :28:57.Northern Ireland and that doesn't make me sorry, it makes me sick. I
:28:58. > :29:02.have come into the studio because my obligation is to God to tell the
:29:03. > :29:06.truth are greater than my obligations to anybody else. Doctor
:29:07. > :29:11.Paisley was right, tell the truth should the heavens fall on you. You
:29:12. > :29:16.have no idea how difficult this is for me. I have been told there will
:29:17. > :29:20.be ostracised, demonised, my political career is finished. Are
:29:21. > :29:25.you involved in a coup to take Arlene Foster down as the First
:29:26. > :29:30.Minister and leader of your party? Nothing, as God is no judge, could
:29:31. > :29:35.be further from the truth. I am the boy that signed her papers. I
:29:36. > :29:41.believe I was one of the first to sign her papers. I campaign for her,
:29:42. > :29:46.I have been involved in nothing other than telling the truth of what
:29:47. > :29:53.has occurred. What is your message to Arlene Foster? I think the
:29:54. > :29:58.situation is so significant that first of all you have to deal with
:29:59. > :30:02.the major problem, you can't stick a plaster over a gaping wounds, and
:30:03. > :30:07.you deal with it by means of a public enquiry. And during that
:30:08. > :30:12.time, when that investigation that you are asking for is happening, if
:30:13. > :30:15.indeed it does happen, do you believe Arlene Foster should step
:30:16. > :30:22.aside as the First Minister of our country? Well that investigation is
:30:23. > :30:28.being conducted? I believe that people have to act according to the
:30:29. > :30:31.conscience before God. What do you believe what might happen to you
:30:32. > :30:37.within the DUP when this interview is broadcast? I have no idea. My
:30:38. > :30:39.only aim is that the truth is told and I have no tour that.
:30:40. > :30:43.You must have thought of the implications
:30:44. > :30:53.And given the level of exposure and all the criticism
:30:54. > :30:58.that comes with that, it'll not be easy.
:30:59. > :31:01.But my wife told me this morning, "Jonathan, tell the truth.
:31:02. > :31:09.You prayed, Jonathan, before this interview.
:31:10. > :31:16.Faith and God is clearly very important to you.
:31:17. > :31:22.I'm a very poor Christian but I've got a great God.
:31:23. > :31:34.Because hospitals in Northern Ireland will not be built.
:31:35. > :31:46.There is a ward in the Ulster Hospital,
:31:47. > :31:53.Children are dying coming into our hospitals and they are dying, or we
:31:54. > :31:55.are saying that they are going to have to drive 40 miles from the
:31:56. > :31:58.There is a ward in the Ulster Hospital,
:31:59. > :32:02.Do you think I can sit back and not tell the truth?
:32:03. > :32:04.Not when God's told me to tell the truth.
:32:05. > :32:06.And Doctor Paisley was right, "Tell the truth, should
:32:07. > :32:28.That's what Jonathan Bell had to say.
:32:29. > :32:30.Earlier this evening, I met the First Minister,
:32:31. > :32:48.First Minister, thank you for doing this interview tonight. Why are you
:32:49. > :32:52.speaking to us? First of all I thought it was important to have
:32:53. > :32:57.balance on this programme. I understand you have had an interview
:32:58. > :33:00.with Jonathan Bell and he has made allegations. I'm not sure what those
:33:01. > :33:03.allegations are but I thought it was important that you heard from me in
:33:04. > :33:10.relation to these matters because of course I was in China last week when
:33:11. > :33:14.the story broke from Spotlight. I gave interviews on Monday but this
:33:15. > :33:18.story has developed and now Jonathan Bell has decided to go to the press
:33:19. > :33:24.in relation to this issue so it is important to hear from me as well.
:33:25. > :33:30.Let's go back to when this scheme was first created. That is November
:33:31. > :33:35.2000 12. It was created under your watch. Were the Minister of the
:33:36. > :33:38.department and it was such a flawed scheme that the cost controls that
:33:39. > :33:45.should have protected the public money was not there. Why did you not
:33:46. > :33:50.protect our money? That is with the benefit of hindsight at the time.
:33:51. > :33:57.Back in 2012 and 2011 and the run-up to the scheme being brought in, we
:33:58. > :34:01.engaged a number of consultants in the energy division and external
:34:02. > :34:05.consultants and they looked at the GB scheme. We decided we would have
:34:06. > :34:08.our own Renewable Heat Incentive scheme. It was important to have our
:34:09. > :34:15.own scheme because it was important to move people away from fossil
:34:16. > :34:19.fuels... The question is why you did not protect our money? And one has
:34:20. > :34:25.to put the context in place first. So it is important that we had a
:34:26. > :34:28.renewable heat scheme. The officials brought the scheme to me and the
:34:29. > :34:35.recommendation was that I go ahead with this without, with the benefit
:34:36. > :34:40.of hindsight, there should have been tariffs in place. I left the
:34:41. > :34:45.department in May of 2015. No problems were highlighted to me by
:34:46. > :34:48.officials. There were no recommendations about doing anything
:34:49. > :34:55.differently. But it was on your watch. It is not all about officials
:34:56. > :35:02.getting all of the blame? It is not all about the officials. That is why
:35:03. > :35:06.I am going to the Assembly... In May 2015I left the department and then
:35:07. > :35:10.the department passed over to Minister Bell. I think I need to ask
:35:11. > :35:16.you questions about what happened when this scheme was up and going
:35:17. > :35:24.and your watch. In June 2013, consultants told your department to
:35:25. > :35:33.seriously consider tiering. It did not happen, why not? It went out to
:35:34. > :35:35.consultation. In October 2013, after the consultation, instead of
:35:36. > :35:45.officials bringing back recommendations, I did not have any
:35:46. > :35:49.information. It was on your watch. I am supposed to have a crystal ball.
:35:50. > :35:54.The consultants did not say to me, they said it to the officials and
:35:55. > :35:59.they did not bring me any recommendations. So it is their
:36:00. > :36:04.fault? What is the point of view being minister if we do not hold to
:36:05. > :36:08.account? You are holding me to account. I'm going to the Assembly
:36:09. > :36:11.on Monday to set out all the difficulties around the scheme and
:36:12. > :36:16.why we found ourselves in this situation. A whistle-blower
:36:17. > :36:21.contacted you. Let's try to deal with the whistle-blower side of it.
:36:22. > :36:27.I don't understand it. Nigel Dodds told the public: there has been
:36:28. > :36:32.quite a scurrilous attempt to blame Arlene Foster for the RHI saga. The
:36:33. > :36:36.endlessly repeated claim has been that she failed to follow up on the
:36:37. > :36:39.whistle-blower concerns. Now we know no such concerns were raised with
:36:40. > :36:45.her. He is saying no concerns were raised
:36:46. > :36:48.with you when you told Spotlight in 2013 a whistle-blower made
:36:49. > :36:53.allegations to me about the operation of the RHI scheme, I
:36:54. > :36:56.passed these concerns onto departmental officials to
:36:57. > :37:01.investigate. How can you pass concerns on that Nigel Dodds said
:37:02. > :37:05.you never received? I'm glad you brought this up. Spotlight came to
:37:06. > :37:09.me before I went to China and they said the whistle-blower and made
:37:10. > :37:14.allegations against the RHI scheme. They did not provide me with the
:37:15. > :37:19.e-mail the lady had sent to me. I understand you have now seen this
:37:20. > :37:22.e-mail. We looked for this e-mail, could not find a whistle-blower
:37:23. > :37:27.e-mail anywhere in the system. I went off to China. I knew I had
:37:28. > :37:30.passed on any concerns to my officials that were raised with me
:37:31. > :37:36.because that is my practice and what I would have done. When I returned
:37:37. > :37:41.we finally found the letter the lady sent to me and indeed, it was not a
:37:42. > :37:44.whistle-blowing letter. The whistle-blowing was raised in later
:37:45. > :37:48.correspondence and later meetings with the various officials. The
:37:49. > :37:53.letter that she sent me was along the lines of the fact that she
:37:54. > :37:56.wanted to know how energy efficiency sat alongside renewable heat and how
:37:57. > :38:00.I could help her with that and I asked the officials to help her with
:38:01. > :38:06.that. That is the background to it all. So you did receive allegations
:38:07. > :38:14.or not? I did not receive allegations. I said I passed on the
:38:15. > :38:19.concerns. No, you did not. You said a whistle-blower made allegations to
:38:20. > :38:24.me, your words. That is what was said to me by Spotlight. It now
:38:25. > :38:28.turns out the lady only made those whistle-blowing concerns to the
:38:29. > :38:33.officials later on. They did not provide me with any correspondence
:38:34. > :38:36.so I have to go on memory. I knew I had passed on the correspondence
:38:37. > :38:41.that was sent to me by this particular lady. I could not
:38:42. > :38:45.remember what was in the letter. Jonathan Bell, as you know, a member
:38:46. > :38:51.of your party, still a member of your party, is accusing the office
:38:52. > :38:56.for First Minister and Deputy First Minister and special advisers for
:38:57. > :39:00.trying to stop delays. What is your reaction to that? Trying to stop
:39:01. > :39:06.delays or trying to stop cost control? Trying to stop delays in
:39:07. > :39:10.implement in cost control and then there were delays in 2015? It is my
:39:11. > :39:14.understanding that Jonathan was told in June there were big difficulties
:39:15. > :39:21.with this scheme. He received a submission in early July. He did not
:39:22. > :39:24.sign that submission off until I think somewhere in early September.
:39:25. > :39:29.In that submission in early September he chose to close the
:39:30. > :39:34.scheme in November. Jonathan took all of those decisions. No one from
:39:35. > :39:43.the office of first and Deputy First Minister, as I understand it, nobody
:39:44. > :39:46.in that office intervened. I certainly did not intervene because
:39:47. > :39:52.I was a Finance minister at the time. What authority would I have to
:39:53. > :39:58.intervene? I was at the same level. He is saying, and this is a man who
:39:59. > :40:11.was a minister, your party appointed him as a minister, he is saying that
:40:12. > :40:15.an official or officials within the F and DFM and SPADs. This is
:40:16. > :40:24.Jonathan trying to detract from the fact that he took the decision after
:40:25. > :40:29.he took the decision... To close the scheme. He named one of the special
:40:30. > :40:42.advisers as Timothy Johnston. When we asked him did you ever attempt to
:40:43. > :40:54.attempt to influence the decision, he said that he never took to
:40:55. > :40:58.influence the decision. No one intervened in terms of the tariff
:40:59. > :41:03.change in September. What I do understand is that advisers of
:41:04. > :41:08.course well advised, but the minister takes a decision. Did
:41:09. > :41:22.Timothy Johnson had any role in advising them to keep that lucrative
:41:23. > :41:29.scheme open? No. I want to move on to the very point that there seems
:41:30. > :41:32.to be delay after delay. If you think about it, they want the scheme
:41:33. > :41:39.changed in September. They then want the scheme changed in October, they
:41:40. > :41:45.then want the scheme changed in November. No. The scheme was to
:41:46. > :41:51.close in November. There was a period in October when they wanted
:41:52. > :41:55.it changed? The submission he signed off said November. The 1st of
:41:56. > :42:02.October was also a period they aimed for. What he signed off, on the 4th
:42:03. > :42:07.of September was the scheme would close in November. Do you know why
:42:08. > :42:16.there were these delays? I have no idea. You haven't asked? Why would I
:42:17. > :42:21.ask? I was a finance minister at the time. Why would you ask? You are the
:42:22. > :42:26.First Minister of this country and you have not asked why the delays
:42:27. > :42:33.were. I am talking about you asking on behalf of the public. I'm sure he
:42:34. > :42:38.will tell you why he delayed the scheme. It would be very interesting
:42:39. > :42:42.to hear. I am bemused why he would leave it open for such a period of
:42:43. > :42:47.time. Let me get this right, we're hearing now of people who have been
:42:48. > :42:53.putting boilers into sheds and blasting heat into the sky. We know
:42:54. > :42:57.these delays were a factor and as our First Minister you still have
:42:58. > :43:02.not asked what the delays were about? Jonathan signed off on a
:43:03. > :43:08.submission on the 4th of September... Do not want to know?
:43:09. > :43:12.I'm sure you have asked him why he left the scheme open for that period
:43:13. > :43:17.of time. It would be in Justin to hear why he did that. There was no
:43:18. > :43:20.influence from the former First Minister and no influence from me as
:43:21. > :43:27.finance minister. How could I have influence when I was at the same
:43:28. > :43:33.level? He took the decision to keep the scheme open. That has been an
:43:34. > :43:37.attempt to remove references to you and the office of First Minister
:43:38. > :43:45.from e-mail chains. What is your reaction to that? Now we have moved
:43:46. > :43:50.on to the scheme in 2016. Thank you, and for this stage, there is now a
:43:51. > :43:55.two tier system which happened on the 17th of September. Now we are in
:43:56. > :43:58.the January and the Treasury sent a letter to our government here saying
:43:59. > :44:04.we're not paying for this so there is panic. And we need to find the
:44:05. > :44:08.money from somewhere. That aligned with the fact that I had someone who
:44:09. > :44:13.came into me and said there was fraud in relation to the RHI scheme.
:44:14. > :44:16.That person came to me towards the end of January. I was concerned
:44:17. > :44:23.obviously about that issue. So I shared that. I was then, as you
:44:24. > :44:29.know, in the Executive office as it is now, so I share that information
:44:30. > :44:33.with the Deputy First Minister. By this stage, Jonathan had received a
:44:34. > :44:40.submission which she signed off to close the scheme in March of 2016.
:44:41. > :44:44.We felt that that was too late a date and so we spoke to him and that
:44:45. > :44:48.was actually brought forward to February. The piece you are talking
:44:49. > :44:52.about, and something I cannot understand was actually the fact
:44:53. > :44:56.that we had had a consultation with Jonathan in relation to this issue,
:44:57. > :45:01.not to delay the scheme but actually to bring it forward from March to
:45:02. > :45:06.February and the submissions there. Let's deal with that first. Jonathan
:45:07. > :45:12.Bell alleges that he wanted to close the scheme. This was very much his
:45:13. > :45:16.thought process in January. He alleges that you called him to a
:45:17. > :45:21.meeting. He says there was a stand-up row. He uses the word
:45:22. > :45:28.abusive. He said you were shouted at him to keep it open. First of all he
:45:29. > :45:31.signed off a submission in January to close the scheme in March and I
:45:32. > :45:34.was concerned that was too long and I believed it needed to be closed
:45:35. > :45:37.before that, as did the Deputy First Minister and we discussed the issue.
:45:38. > :45:41.In relation to a meeting with Jonathan, I do recall a meeting with
:45:42. > :45:44.Jonathan and rather than me be abusive with him, he was very
:45:45. > :45:50.aggressive with me and I have a witness in relation to how he spoke
:45:51. > :45:53.to me on that. I was sitting in my room and he came in and used his
:45:54. > :45:58.physical bulk to stand over me in quite an aggressive way, so much so
:45:59. > :46:02.that he was not physically but he was told to step back. And you know,
:46:03. > :46:16.Stephen... The Jonathan Bell that appears, and
:46:17. > :46:20.I have only seen a small clip of your programme tonight, but the
:46:21. > :46:24.Jonathan Bell that would not be familiar to many of his political
:46:25. > :46:30.colleagues, many of his civil servants in the department. Or
:46:31. > :46:34.indeed to many in the business community. Many female colleagues
:46:35. > :46:41.who have felt intimidated, felt the lead by Jonathan over the years. Mr
:46:42. > :46:47.Bell would emphatically deny that. He may well do. I felt intimidated
:46:48. > :46:50.by Jonathan Bell on occasion. And I certainly did on that occasion so
:46:51. > :47:00.all of this nonsense that I was aggressive to him is quite the
:47:01. > :47:02.contrary. What was he saying? He had when... He provide a statement
:47:03. > :47:08.saying that he was closing the scheme immediately. Representations
:47:09. > :47:12.were made across the political spectrum that there had been a lot
:47:13. > :47:16.of people who had spent a lot of money on capital equipment he had
:47:17. > :47:23.not had the chance to apply into the new score. Don't forget, this game
:47:24. > :47:27.before November had been tiered. We spoke to senior civil servants and
:47:28. > :47:30.they said there may be a possibility that there would be legal
:47:31. > :47:35.challenges, these people had spent money, and they haven't been able to
:47:36. > :47:39.apply into this game. We thought the best way forward was to leave a
:47:40. > :47:44.two-week specific gap for those people to be able to apply in. So
:47:45. > :47:51.you did ask for it to be extended? This was after I had said the march
:47:52. > :47:54.was too late. Marched and forget was Jonathan's date. In conjunction with
:47:55. > :47:59.senior civil servants who agreed that was the right thing to do, and
:48:00. > :48:03.if you look at Jonathan's statement in the house that followed, he said
:48:04. > :48:07.that the two-week period was in consultation with the office of the
:48:08. > :48:12.first and Deputy First Minister. What he was angry about them was
:48:13. > :48:15.that he would have to change for me -- from a major closure to another
:48:16. > :48:19.two weeks and he didn't like the fact that he was going to have to go
:48:20. > :48:22.back to the house and he was angry about that fact. Jonathan Bell says
:48:23. > :48:31.he believes his political career is over. With izzard within your party?
:48:32. > :48:35.That this for the party officers. We have a party officers Tina takes
:48:36. > :48:41.decisions on that. What do you make of him? I think he is a very
:48:42. > :48:44.aggressive individual. He has been aggressive to me in the past. I
:48:45. > :48:49.think it will try to portray himself in a particular way this evening,
:48:50. > :48:53.but I think plenty of people know exactly what Jonathan Bell is like.
:48:54. > :48:57.Are you prepared to consider stepping aside while there is an
:48:58. > :49:03.investigation into high hundreds of millions of pounds of our money has
:49:04. > :49:05.been committed to be spent? Well, of course it would be spent because we
:49:06. > :49:09.have a plan coming forward to deal with that matter and that plan will
:49:10. > :49:14.come forward in January, so I am not stepping aside. I am First Minister,
:49:15. > :49:19.party leader of the DUP and I have a job to do and I'm committed to do
:49:20. > :49:22.that job. Can I say to the hundreds of people here contact me today,
:49:23. > :49:26.thank you for your support, thank you for bringing into my office,
:49:27. > :49:37.thank you for contacting all of the officers across Northern Ireland. I
:49:38. > :49:40.really do appreciate your support and I won't let you down. I will
:49:41. > :49:42.implement the plan to deal with these issues. How much of money do
:49:43. > :49:45.you think we will get back? Well, it hasn't been spent yet. The money
:49:46. > :49:49.that has been committed to be spent. We will get our significant
:49:50. > :49:50.proportion of that. About half? I would hope that that would be the
:49:51. > :50:03.case, yes. Obviously, at home, on Twitter and
:50:04. > :50:06.Facebook and all of that, you will be commenting about that. There will
:50:07. > :50:08.be full coverage on the BBC tomorrow of this.
:50:09. > :50:11.Let's speak to the BBC's Political Editor, Mark Devenport,
:50:12. > :50:13.who is with me and who has been watching that interview
:50:14. > :50:15.with Arlene Foster, and also the earlier interview
:50:16. > :50:28.That is extraordinary. Yes, words are almost failing me. It is time
:50:29. > :50:31.for a sharp intake of breath as we sit back and take on what we have
:50:32. > :50:34.seen. Extraordinary that these arguments that are so often kept
:50:35. > :50:39.away from the public are being played out here on the screen and
:50:40. > :50:44.extraordinary really the level of venom that now exists between these
:50:45. > :50:49.once close colleagues. This is politics read into damp cloth. While
:50:50. > :50:54.there was a lot of dense detail the about what document went to whom
:50:55. > :50:58.went, it is clear that these two politicians have the complete
:50:59. > :51:01.reputations on the line and there completely contradictory and you
:51:02. > :51:04.have to conclude one is telling the truth with the other is telling the
:51:05. > :51:10.telling the truth, the two cannot coexist. Here is a sense of the war
:51:11. > :51:14.between the two of them, senior people in the DUP, both high
:51:15. > :51:19.profile. Jonathan Bell alleges that Arlene Foster was shouting at him,
:51:20. > :51:25.she alleges that he used his bulk to hover over her and have two be asked
:51:26. > :51:29.to stand back. Extraordinary. It is the kind of scene you might see
:51:30. > :51:32.outside a nightclub at closing time, I suppose, not the kind of scene
:51:33. > :51:36.that I think the public would expect to be going on in terms of
:51:37. > :51:44.discussions of these highly sensitive schemes, very important to
:51:45. > :51:47.the public, potentially expensive to the public purse. He would have
:51:48. > :51:51.thought there would be a degree of coolness over how this would have
:51:52. > :51:57.been dealt with. But both of the accounts, there are certainly
:51:58. > :52:00.wasn't. What we need to know and any enquiry that is brought in, we need
:52:01. > :52:06.to know who was pushing for what. They are giving contradictory
:52:07. > :52:11.accounts of this. Jonathan Bell has called for a judge let public
:52:12. > :52:16.enquiry. Will he get it? At the moment, the ball is in the court of
:52:17. > :52:20.the Public Accounts Committee. That looks like the place with the
:52:21. > :52:23.witnesses will be called. Even members of the Public Accounts
:52:24. > :52:28.Committee will be wondering if the powers are sufficient for the job,
:52:29. > :52:31.they said that this afternoon when they met. A number of people were
:52:32. > :52:36.named during that interview. We have asked them for their responses to
:52:37. > :52:39.the allegations. We heard a lot about the role of the special
:52:40. > :52:44.advisers, what have they been saying? To begin with, Timothy
:52:45. > :52:55.Johnston is the most senior of the special advisers preferred to. At
:52:56. > :52:58.the time he was about to the First Minister and he points out that for
:52:59. > :53:00.the majority of this period that was Peter Robinson. Timothy Johnston
:53:01. > :53:05.denies that he ever attempted to influence decisions about the
:53:06. > :53:11.heating scheme. He also states that he never sought to alter or delete
:53:12. > :53:15.records or e-mails relating to the scheme. Let's move onto Andrew
:53:16. > :53:20.Crawford, at the time he was the special adviser in the Department of
:53:21. > :53:23.Finance. Prior to joining the finance Department, Andrew Crawford
:53:24. > :53:28.worked alongside Arlene Foster in the Department of enterprise. He
:53:29. > :53:31.said he did have discussions with his successor at the enterprise
:53:32. > :53:37.Department offering informal advice and assistance but not on behalf of
:53:38. > :53:41.Arlene Foster, the Finance Minister. He also denies ever seeking to keep
:53:42. > :53:45.the scheme open up a higher tariff against the wishes of the minister.
:53:46. > :53:48.He points out that the then Minister, Jonathan Bell, had
:53:49. > :53:55.expressed a view on the scheme. Two other advisers were mentioned,
:53:56. > :53:58.Richard Bullick and Stephen Brimstone, who recently resigned.
:53:59. > :54:05.Both are nice seeing any heated exchange between Arlene Foster and
:54:06. > :54:09.Jonathan Bell. Then there is Timothy Cairns, Jonathan Bell's own adviser.
:54:10. > :54:18.He said he did amend the draft submission on the heating scheme.
:54:19. > :54:23.That is one of the contradictions in the accounts that we saw. Timothy
:54:24. > :54:27.Cairns also said that he offered advice to Jonathan Bell, as he would
:54:28. > :54:33.do, but the ultimate decisions about the heating scheme for further
:54:34. > :54:36.minister to take. Peter Robinson was First Minister prior to Arlene
:54:37. > :54:41.Foster. What is he said about the allegations that he or his 56 macro
:54:42. > :54:45.intervened in the skin? Peter Robinson told us that the problems
:54:46. > :54:49.around the heating scheme were never brought to him as First Minister or
:54:50. > :54:54.DUP party leader so he did not intervene. He does say that had he
:54:55. > :54:59.been made aware he would have urged the minister responsible to sorted
:55:00. > :55:03.out. In relation to allegations of altering documents, he said he would
:55:04. > :55:10.have never have asked anyone to do it and had no knowledge of anyone
:55:11. > :55:15.doing it. So many allegations are flying here. Jonathan Bell said he
:55:16. > :55:19.e-mails not only Arlene Foster but the DUP Deputy Leader Nigel Dodds
:55:20. > :55:22.and the party chairman, Lord Morrow, with his concerns over attempts to
:55:23. > :55:26.change e-mails and documents relating to the scheme. No doubt
:55:27. > :55:31.they have replied to that. They have confirmed to us that they were
:55:32. > :55:34.contacted. They said the matter was investigated and they did not
:55:35. > :55:40.conclude that there had been any attempts to remove references to the
:55:41. > :55:42.office of the first and Deputy First Minister. They did confirm that
:55:43. > :55:46.reference in the draft submission which highlighted the role of the
:55:47. > :55:50.office and asking for the scheme to be closed earlier than Jonathan Bell
:55:51. > :55:55.have proposed, that was removed. What about the response from the two
:55:56. > :56:02.senior servants mentioned? We made effort to contact both Andrew
:56:03. > :56:08.McCormick and Chris Stewart, so far we have nothing back. What happens
:56:09. > :56:17.tomorrow? What happens tomorrow! There is a lot for everyone to
:56:18. > :56:24.digest. Do you think Arlene Foster will survive this? The public are
:56:25. > :56:27.going to have to judge this. In the short-term, her Deputy Leader, Nigel
:56:28. > :56:32.Dodds, he tweeted how proud he was of the leadership she has given, so
:56:33. > :56:38.he is behind her. The majority of party will be behind her, but I
:56:39. > :56:42.think in terms of any enquiry, be it the Public Accounts Committee or
:56:43. > :56:51.judicial enquiry, will be important what evidence the neutral parties
:56:52. > :56:56.give, and the big question, the big question not answered is what was
:56:57. > :57:01.going on in the grounds in terms of lobbying to keep the scheme being
:57:02. > :57:05.kept open. That still has to be filled in. You getting any sense of
:57:06. > :57:11.the split within the DUP beyond Jonathan Bell? There are sources
:57:12. > :57:15.within the DUP who were maybe briefing against others. It is not
:57:16. > :57:19.entirely unanimous, but I would say at the moment Mr Bell is probably
:57:20. > :57:23.looking fairly isolated within the party. Whether he is isolated within
:57:24. > :57:27.the wider community, that is up to the viewers, who they'd have decided
:57:28. > :57:29.to believe given these two very different accounts.
:57:30. > :57:33.So, very two different versions from two members of the same party.
:57:34. > :57:36.What we've tried to do tonight is give then both an opportunity
:57:37. > :57:44.It's now up to you to decide if they have given you a clear idea
:57:45. > :57:47.of what led to the vast overspend of your money on the Renewable
:57:48. > :57:57.The SDLP said they would bring a motion of no-confidence against the
:57:58. > :58:02.First Minister. And guess on the question you want answered is this,
:58:03. > :58:06.can we get our millions back? Full coverage on BBC Radio Ulster and the
:58:07. > :58:11.BBC News teams tomorrow. Thank you very much for watching. Good night.