0:00:03 > 0:00:05Hello.
0:00:05 > 0:00:07Exasperated commuters, unhealthily packed trains,
0:00:07 > 0:00:09and companies forced out of business.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Britain's worst rail strike in 20 years has meant misery for hundreds
0:00:12 > 0:00:16and thousands of people and tonight we are hosting a debate
0:00:16 > 0:00:22on the crisis on Southern Rail.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25The train fares are going up but the service has been not
0:00:25 > 0:00:26been getting better.
0:00:26 > 0:00:27The trains are ridiculous.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29I don't know who's right and who's wrong.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Somebody has got to sort it out or something is going to have
0:00:32 > 0:00:33to change and negotiate.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36I try to empathise with why they are striking.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40If the company gets round the table and we can hammer out a deal then
0:00:40 > 0:00:43we can call off these strikes and get back to work.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45We will try to get you onto the train.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48It's really difficult to negotiate with another party who don't
0:00:48 > 0:00:50understand compromise.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53I don't think the Prime Minister has any idea of the level of suffering
0:00:53 > 0:00:57and pain that rail passengers and businesses are suffering.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00There is only one body responsible for the current strike.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04This is a strike from the trade unions.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Let me start by introducing our panel.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15Mick Lynch is the assistant general secretary of the RMT.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Mr Lynch has said he is sorry that people have had to put
0:01:19 > 0:01:22up with strike action but it is for the company
0:01:22 > 0:01:26to get round the table and we can hammer out a deal.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30Well, the man who says he is more than happy to hammer out a deal
0:01:30 > 0:01:33with the unions is stood right next to Mick Lynch, and is
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Charles Horton, the chief executive of Southern.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Huw Merriman MP is an influential member of the Transport Select
0:01:39 > 0:01:42Committee, and we also have Caroline Pidgeon, chair
0:01:42 > 0:01:47of the London Assembly's Transport Committee.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Now, without further delay, to coin a phrase, our first question
0:01:57 > 0:02:00is from Dominic Morgan, a health care consultant from Hove
0:02:00 > 0:02:03who commutes to Hammersmith.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07As a daily commuter from Hove to London, I'm forced to stand
0:02:07 > 0:02:09on packed trains when services are cancelled due
0:02:09 > 0:02:11to industrial action.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13The other day I saw an 85-year-old man sitting on the floor
0:02:13 > 0:02:16because he couldn't physically get to the priority seats
0:02:16 > 0:02:19just a few feet away because the train was so packed.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22Do you acknowledge that your industrial action is causing
0:02:22 > 0:02:24unprecedented disruption to the lives of ordinary working
0:02:24 > 0:02:28people like myself and is also causing far more safety incidents
0:02:28 > 0:02:31than would ever happen due to driver operated doors,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33and how do you justify this?
0:02:33 > 0:02:34Thank you.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37This question goes to the very heart of this dispute.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Southern wants to bring in something called driver
0:02:39 > 0:02:43only operated trains, DOO, where the driver rather
0:02:43 > 0:02:47than the conductor opens and closes the doors.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50It is an argument that has been destroying people's lives
0:02:50 > 0:02:53for the past eight months because the company,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57the union and the government cannot agree whether driver only operated
0:02:57 > 0:03:00trains are safe.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Now, Mick Lynch, you note the regulator has said
0:03:02 > 0:03:09that it is safe, so why are you striking?
0:03:09 > 0:03:12To answer the gentleman's question, I am sorry and I am aware
0:03:12 > 0:03:15of the unprecedented disruption and I do not want that to happen.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18I want a settlement to this dispute based on a common-sense
0:03:18 > 0:03:20approach from both parties, and we think that is available right
0:03:20 > 0:03:23now, this afternoon, if Charles wants to go outside
0:03:23 > 0:03:25and draft something up with me.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27That settlement is available immediately.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29What is stopping the settlement is the attitude of the company
0:03:29 > 0:03:33towards changing the way that the trains are operated.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35There are two modes of operating trains available
0:03:35 > 0:03:37to this company to run.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40Earlier last year, they chose to implement and then impose
0:03:40 > 0:03:44a change to driver only operation.
0:03:44 > 0:03:46We believe that is unsafe.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48It is not about opening and closing doors.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51That is one element of a conductor's role.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55It is about an entire suite of safety critical competencies,
0:03:55 > 0:03:59including evacuation, emergencies, fires, collisions.
0:03:59 > 0:04:05All sorts of incidents which could happen on the railway
0:04:05 > 0:04:07where a safety critical second person is vital to the welfare
0:04:07 > 0:04:09of the passengers guaranteed to be on board.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12That is what the dispute is about.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15You have accepted that the rail regulator has said that driver only
0:04:15 > 0:04:18operated trains are safe.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21I accept they have said they are safe but they haven't
0:04:21 > 0:04:22said they are safer.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25They have never at any stage in this period said they are safer
0:04:25 > 0:04:27than running with two people on board.
0:04:27 > 0:04:28Two safety critical people.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31But there are trains which already run with just drivers.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34How many accidents have been on those trains?
0:04:34 > 0:04:3730% of the services in Britain run with a driver only
0:04:37 > 0:04:39operation operation.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41The majority mode in Britain, the orthodox mode, is running
0:04:41 > 0:04:44with two people on board.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47The safety critical record of the driver only operation is not
0:04:47 > 0:04:50as good as with a second person.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Trap and drag incidents on platforms are going up.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56We had the incident at Watford a few weeks ago where trains collided
0:04:56 > 0:04:58and the driver was incapacitated and trapped in the cab.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01They couldn't move.
0:05:01 > 0:05:03Let's put these things to Charles.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06The guard evacuated that train, evacuated people, took care
0:05:06 > 0:05:08of people that were injured, and coordinated the
0:05:08 > 0:05:09emergency services.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11That has got nothing to do with doors.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13That is about having a competent person on board
0:05:13 > 0:05:17to take care of the public in emergency situations.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20Charles Horton, are you going to remove that second person
0:05:20 > 0:05:21from Southern trains?
0:05:21 > 0:05:23We are not.
0:05:23 > 0:05:24I will come onto that...
0:05:24 > 0:05:25You are.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29If I can start by saying, I am deeply sorry for the inconvenience
0:05:29 > 0:05:34caused to customers now and I think the union's action is grossly
0:05:34 > 0:05:40disproportionate and I also think they are causing immeasurable damage
0:05:40 > 0:05:43not only to passengers but also to the regional economy as well
0:05:43 > 0:05:46and it is an appalling situation.
0:05:46 > 0:05:50Coming back to the question you have asked me, no,
0:05:50 > 0:05:53we are not removing a second person from the train.
0:05:53 > 0:05:54Yes, you are.
0:05:54 > 0:05:55In fact, there will be...
0:05:55 > 0:05:57Hang on a second, Mick Lynch.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00Let him say his piece and we will come back to you.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02There will be a second safety trained person...
0:06:02 > 0:06:03Not safety critical.
0:06:03 > 0:06:04On more trains...
0:06:04 > 0:06:05Guaranteed on every train?
0:06:05 > 0:06:06Let him speak.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07Goodness sake.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09Are they guaranteed on every train?
0:06:09 > 0:06:10Let him speak.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15There will be a second safety trained person on more trains
0:06:15 > 0:06:18than there were at the start of this dispute.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20Do you take any responsibility for this crisis?
0:06:20 > 0:06:21For this dispute?
0:06:21 > 0:06:23It cannot all be the union's fault.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26We are doing our level best to take this dispute sorted and right
0:06:26 > 0:06:29throughout this whole process we have put a number
0:06:29 > 0:06:31of compromises on the table...
0:06:31 > 0:06:32What are they?
0:06:32 > 0:06:33To try and get...
0:06:33 > 0:06:34What are those compromises?
0:06:34 > 0:06:37We put an 8-point plan to the RMT which was intended
0:06:37 > 0:06:40to settle the dispute.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43It gave guarantees around jobs, guarantees around pay,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46guarantees for the future about how we would work.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49I'm afraid they were unwilling to compromise.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51Hang on a second.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53Wait a minute.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56Because the compromise that has been put to you is that the second
0:06:56 > 0:06:57person will be guaranteed.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59The second person, according to Charles Horton,
0:06:59 > 0:07:03unless you think he is lying, is that a second person will be
0:07:03 > 0:07:04guaranteed on the trains.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07We will come to the safety critical point in just one moment.
0:07:07 > 0:07:08Do you accept that?
0:07:08 > 0:07:11Charles Horton will not guarantee a second person on every train.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Tell the public you are going to guarantee a safety critical
0:07:15 > 0:07:16person on every train.
0:07:16 > 0:07:17Let him answer.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19Look into the camera and say it.
0:07:19 > 0:07:28What we have guaranteed is that we build roster a second
0:07:28 > 0:07:31-- What we have guaranteed is that we will roster a second
0:07:31 > 0:07:34safety trained person on as many trains as had them before...
0:07:34 > 0:07:35LAUGHTER.
0:07:35 > 0:07:36He won't say it.
0:07:36 > 0:07:37Will you allow me to finish?
0:07:37 > 0:07:39Go on.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42A second safety trained person on as many trains as we had
0:07:42 > 0:07:43before this started.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46In fact, we have recruited 100 additional people to make
0:07:46 > 0:07:47sure that we do this.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50And on top of that, what we will make sure is that those
0:07:50 > 0:07:53second safety trained people are better able to look
0:07:53 > 0:07:57after customers, because, freed up from operational tasks,
0:07:57 > 0:07:59they are much better able to get through trains
0:07:59 > 0:08:00and look after customers.
0:08:00 > 0:08:02Collect revenue.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05Which is what customers say they want.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08Before I go back to the panel, and certainly to Huw Merriman
0:08:08 > 0:08:10and Caroline Pidgeon, let's just hear a few more personal
0:08:10 > 0:08:12stories from the audience.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15If we can go to Emma Green from Littlehampton, who has
0:08:15 > 0:08:17quit her job due to the strike.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20Can you give us your story?
0:08:20 > 0:08:24I started a new job in London, commuting.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27I had been a commuter before so it wasn't new to me.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29I am a single mum with an eight-year-old son.
0:08:29 > 0:08:33In June when I started, literally from the first day,
0:08:33 > 0:08:39I experienced horrendous delays, getting home on average 2.5 hours
0:08:39 > 0:08:44after I'd left in office, and as bad as 4.5 hours.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47With an eight-year-old son, a 3-, 4-, 4.5-hour
0:08:47 > 0:08:50journey isn't acceptable.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53So by July I had quit my job and taken a job closer to home,
0:08:53 > 0:08:56losing myself ?7,000 a year and therefore putting my family
0:08:56 > 0:08:57finances at risk as well.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01But I did that so I could see my son because you could not get me
0:09:01 > 0:09:03home on time to do so.
0:09:03 > 0:09:04Right.
0:09:04 > 0:09:08So my question to the panel is how many more people's lives
0:09:08 > 0:09:09have to be affected?
0:09:09 > 0:09:13How many more have to leave their jobs, lose their jobs
0:09:13 > 0:09:14and have their family life significantly disrupted
0:09:14 > 0:09:17as a result of your services?
0:09:17 > 0:09:19May I just add, these are not purely down to strikes?
0:09:19 > 0:09:23They were bad before the strikes started.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26APPLAUSE AND CHEERING.
0:09:26 > 0:09:36Well, you can hear the strength of feeling.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39The rights of passengers have got to be far more important than this
0:09:39 > 0:09:41cheap political point-scoring that we have heard this evening
0:09:41 > 0:09:44and I feel so frustrated, as a Southern passenger myself,
0:09:44 > 0:09:46I know the pain, Emma, you are going through,
0:09:46 > 0:09:49worrying whether you're going to get there to pick up your child on time,
0:09:49 > 0:09:52if you are even going to make the nativity play,
0:09:52 > 0:09:58because the driver doesn't show up for the train.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01I am living this with you every day, and thousands
0:10:01 > 0:10:02and thousands of passengers.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04It is really affecting people on modest incomes.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06If you are a higher earner, you may well be able
0:10:06 > 0:10:09to work flexibly from home, but actually it is those people
0:10:09 > 0:10:12who have got to go in to do the shift at the hospital,
0:10:12 > 0:10:15the shift at the shop, they are the ones who are so
0:10:15 > 0:10:18affected by this and are powerless with this dispute going on.
0:10:18 > 0:10:19There were issues before.
0:10:19 > 0:10:20Let's not beat about the bush.
0:10:20 > 0:10:24GTR were very poor in terms of driver recruitment and I have
0:10:24 > 0:10:27raised this many times with Charles and I know they are recruiting more,
0:10:27 > 0:10:30but the unions have got to get a grip on this and get
0:10:30 > 0:10:34round the table and come up with a deal because we are all suffering,
0:10:34 > 0:10:36including your members will be suffering with their
0:10:36 > 0:10:37pay packet being cut.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40May I just say, this is not a choice between having a second safety
0:10:40 > 0:10:42trained person on the train or not.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45We are saying that there will be a second safety trained person
0:10:45 > 0:10:48on these trains and we are also saying that there will be more
0:10:48 > 0:10:50trains with a second safety trained person on them.
0:10:50 > 0:10:51That is the case.
0:10:51 > 0:10:52Before I come back...
0:10:52 > 0:10:54When I sit opposite him in the negotiating room,
0:10:54 > 0:10:57that is not the case.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00What he says is, I cannot guarantee a person on every train and I am
0:11:00 > 0:11:02going to run the trains without that second person.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05I put it to you, Charles, if you guarantee that second
0:11:05 > 0:11:08person on every train, we can get an agreement.
0:11:08 > 0:11:09Every train that runs.
0:11:09 > 0:11:10Can you guarantee that?
0:11:10 > 0:11:12Then what we will do, we will define what that
0:11:12 > 0:11:14person does, jointly, together, along with Aslef, we will
0:11:14 > 0:11:16define what that person's role is.
0:11:16 > 0:11:21Most employers in this country, as far as I know,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24when they are paying the same wage for the same job, they want that
0:11:24 > 0:11:27person to do as many tasks, take on as many
0:11:27 > 0:11:28responsibilities as possible.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Let Charles Horton answer.
0:11:30 > 0:11:31They refuse to do that.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33They will not agree to guarantee...
0:11:33 > 0:11:34Let him answer.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36If they do that, we've got a deal.
0:11:36 > 0:11:37Can you guarantee that?
0:11:37 > 0:11:39So, to repeat what I've said to Mick Lynch in private
0:11:39 > 0:11:43and in public is that we are going to have a second safety trained
0:11:43 > 0:11:46person on more trains than at the start of the dispute.
0:11:46 > 0:11:47That is...
0:11:47 > 0:11:52What I will also say is that in certain predefined circumstances,
0:11:52 > 0:11:59if we cannot get a second safety trained person to that train,
0:11:59 > 0:12:03we will let that train go and we will get that person to that
0:12:03 > 0:12:06train as quickly as possible, because what that means is that
0:12:06 > 0:12:08customers suffer fewer delays, fewer cancellations, and fewer
0:12:08 > 0:12:11disruptions to their journeys.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13That is what they tell me they want.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Are those weasel words by Charles Horton?
0:12:16 > 0:12:19Are those weasel words or do you think that really
0:12:19 > 0:12:21constitutes a genuine offer, a change from what has
0:12:21 > 0:12:26been going on?
0:12:26 > 0:12:29I do, but I should just say I can understand why
0:12:29 > 0:12:30the audience is so confused.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32You sound like you're getting two conflicting points here.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35What we have come to, and I have a lot of sympathy
0:12:35 > 0:12:36with the unions...
0:12:36 > 0:12:45I had a huge amount of sympathy with the unions on decision
0:12:45 > 0:12:48-- I had a huge amount of sympathy with the unions on this issue
0:12:48 > 0:12:50because I wanted a second member on the trains.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54But if it is safe for a train to dispatch without that second
0:12:54 > 0:12:57person on board then I didn't want my train on Southern to be
0:12:57 > 0:12:59cancelled, and that is what this really comes down to.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02So what Southern have said is that in exceptional circumstances
0:13:02 > 0:13:04they would want that train to roll.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06My point to the unions was you should have a sit-down
0:13:06 > 0:13:09and draw out an agreement on what those exceptional
0:13:09 > 0:13:11circumstances are, but they are refusing to do so.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13That is what I find so frustrating.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15Exceptional circumstances should be where if the second member of staff
0:13:15 > 0:13:18is stuck further down in Dorking and the train has to go
0:13:18 > 0:13:21and then pick him up then it continues to roll.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24When it comes down to it, if Southern are putting more second
0:13:24 > 0:13:27members of staff on board, and not only that, rather than them
0:13:27 > 0:13:29being stuck on one carriage, opening and closing doors,
0:13:29 > 0:13:31they can go and spend time with customers,
0:13:31 > 0:13:33sell tickets, reassure, look after safety, then this
0:13:33 > 0:13:35strikes me as better than what we had previously.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37But they are not safety critical.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Right, OK, at that point, let's talk to Huw Merriman
0:13:39 > 0:13:42a little bit about the role of the government, or the lack
0:13:42 > 0:13:45of intervention by the government, as some people would put it.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47We asked Chris Grayling, the Transport Secretary,
0:13:47 > 0:13:49and the Rail Minister, Paul Maynard, to take part
0:13:49 > 0:13:50tonight but they declined.
0:13:50 > 0:13:51Should they have been here?
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Should they have been here, Huw Merriman, to answer
0:13:54 > 0:13:56the questions and the very tragic, actually, in some cases,
0:13:56 > 0:13:59stories of people in the audience.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03I think one of the difficulties is that if you also have a member
0:14:03 > 0:14:06of the government here then you will end up with three people
0:14:06 > 0:14:07having quite a bit of a bunfight.
0:14:07 > 0:14:11I stand here before you as a member of the Transport Select Committee
0:14:11 > 0:14:14to try and bring a little bit of balance and sort of some
0:14:14 > 0:14:17technical ideas into this particular debate, so of course I can't speak
0:14:17 > 0:14:20for them but, when it comes down to it, we are told this
0:14:20 > 0:14:22issue is about safety, it is not about politics.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25Therefore there has to be a technical solution for this rather
0:14:25 > 0:14:26than a political intervention.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28It is certainly the case that the government ministers
0:14:28 > 0:14:32are highly focused, they work very closely with Southern to try to come
0:14:32 > 0:14:34up with some of these proposals, so this guarantee on jobs,
0:14:34 > 0:14:38and this guarantee on pay and indeed pay rises is one such idea.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40Have we been let down by the government on this issue?
0:14:40 > 0:14:42Shouldn't they have intervened earlier?
0:14:42 > 0:14:44Again, you talk about intervention but it is not the government
0:14:44 > 0:14:47that is refusing to drive trains which the independent safety
0:14:47 > 0:14:51regulator has decreed are safe.
0:14:51 > 0:14:52have
0:14:52 > 0:14:55have Southern Rail with their track record.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59This isn't one of the disputes, look back in the '80s where you had
0:14:59 > 0:15:02a similar dispute in terms of time, the miners dispute where
0:15:02 > 0:15:05you were looking at jobs being lost and an industry in decline.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08This is an industry where passenger numbers have doubled and pay
0:15:08 > 0:15:11and jobs have been guaranteed for the length of this franchise.
0:15:11 > 0:15:12This is nothing like it.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14It's hard for the government to come up with more.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17The question may be whether Parliament has to give
0:15:17 > 0:15:19the government more powers in legislation to bring
0:15:19 > 0:15:20this matter to an end.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Mick Lynch, are you declaring war on the government?
0:15:22 > 0:15:25Is this a bigger power play to try and injure or bring
0:15:25 > 0:15:26down a Tory government?
0:15:26 > 0:15:28No.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30As your colleague said, well, the RMT president,
0:15:30 > 0:15:33Sean Hoyle reportedly said any trade unionist with any sense wants
0:15:33 > 0:15:35to bring down this bloody working class-hating Tory
0:15:35 > 0:15:43government, do you agree with him?
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Sean Hoyle doesn't speak for the RMT.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49This is about this dispute and this dispute is about safety.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52Huw wants to give us guarantees about money and jobs,
0:15:52 > 0:15:54we don't want those guarantees in this context, we want
0:15:54 > 0:15:56a settlement on this dispute.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58The dispute is being intervened in everyday by the government
0:15:58 > 0:16:00because they are preventing a settlement because they want
0:16:00 > 0:16:03to extend DOO all over the network and extend this principle,
0:16:03 > 0:16:06set a principle.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09They run this company directly, with Charles as their agent.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11Are using this as a campaign to protect your jobs
0:16:11 > 0:16:12and protect public services?
0:16:12 > 0:16:13No.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Sean Hoyle was speaking out of turn?
0:16:15 > 0:16:18He is not correct in the context of this dispute, no.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19Right, so he was wrong.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Does that stoke the fire of a wider political gain.
0:16:22 > 0:16:23He has been quoted out of context.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25How can you be quoted out of context?
0:16:25 > 0:16:28He was speaking about another dispute a few months ago.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31This context is that Chris Grayling is happy for this dispute
0:16:31 > 0:16:33to carry on because he wants to smash the unions.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36His senior official in the DFT has gone on record in a meeting
0:16:36 > 0:16:38like this, saying it.
0:16:38 > 0:16:44He used to work for Southern as a director, by the way.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47We could get a settlement if they would come to the table
0:16:47 > 0:16:49and say they guarantee a second person on every train.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51Caroline Pidgeon, you would like to see Southern
0:16:51 > 0:16:56stripped of the franchise?
0:16:56 > 0:16:59I absolutely would and I would like to see Transport
0:16:59 > 0:17:01for London running the suburban metro services over the next
0:17:01 > 0:17:03few years and the other franchises within London.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06We have seen where Transport for London run franchises in London
0:17:06 > 0:17:09they have a company running it at a fixed price and they take
0:17:09 > 0:17:11the fares risk, but we get fully staffed stations.
0:17:12 > 0:17:13Isn't that what we want to see?
0:17:13 > 0:17:15Fully staffed stations is what we want to see,
0:17:15 > 0:17:18so people with disabilities can turn up and go.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20The audience are heckling about the fact that
0:17:20 > 0:17:21there is no evidence that
0:17:21 > 0:17:23Transport for London would do a better job.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26There have been three Mayors and they have all been dogged by RMT
0:17:26 > 0:17:29strikes on the London Underground and it continues.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34Absolutely, we have threats of strikes and strikes are happening
0:17:34 > 0:17:37all the time but I really think in terms of suburban rail services,
0:17:37 > 0:17:39having Transport for London and the Mayor directly
0:17:39 > 0:17:42running those services, able to respond to local
0:17:42 > 0:17:45concerns and having fully
0:17:45 > 0:17:48staffed stations from first to last train it transforms the network
0:17:48 > 0:17:52and we don't have that with some of the train operators at the moment
0:17:52 > 0:17:56and I would like to see that in London and it really would help
0:17:56 > 0:17:58people with mobility issues so they can turn up
0:17:58 > 0:18:00and use any rail service like the rest of us.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03Let's hear from Tim Loughton who has spoken about the company
0:18:03 > 0:18:04and said it is a shambles.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08Do you believe that they can resolve this dispute or they should be
0:18:08 > 0:18:09stripped of their franchise?
0:18:09 > 0:18:12I have no problem with them being stripped of the franchise
0:18:12 > 0:18:15but the franchise was defective in the first place, frankly.
0:18:15 > 0:18:16Nobody comes out of this strike well.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20APPLAUSE.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24The franchise is too big to handle, it is almost a quarter of the
0:18:24 > 0:18:29train-travelling public in this country.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32I doubt whether any of the other train operating companies
0:18:32 > 0:18:35could handle it in its current form and it needs to be broken up
0:18:35 > 0:18:39and whether GTR remain in control of half of that I don't know
0:18:39 > 0:18:42but the thing that is completely undermining any train operating
0:18:42 > 0:18:44company running the service at the moment is a completely
0:18:44 > 0:18:45unreasonable strike action.
0:18:45 > 0:18:47It is crazy when we have Thameslink trains running
0:18:47 > 0:18:56between London and Brighton, who are driver door only operator
0:18:56 > 0:18:58trains and have been for some time without any safety considerations,
0:18:58 > 0:19:01calling at the same stations on the same lines, and yet RMT
0:19:01 > 0:19:05and Aslef are saying it would be safe for Southern
0:19:05 > 0:19:07and Aslef are saying it wouldn't be safe for Southern
0:19:07 > 0:19:12trains to do the same.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15It is a complete and utter nonsense and what it comes down
0:19:15 > 0:19:16to is a highly political strike.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18What do you say to that?
0:19:18 > 0:19:20It's a nonsense and you are exploiting the situation according
0:19:20 > 0:19:22to Tim Loughton and other members of the audience.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24Our members that live in Eastbourne and Horsham
0:19:24 > 0:19:27and all the other depots are not raving militants,
0:19:27 > 0:19:30the way they have been described, they are ordinary men and women,
0:19:30 > 0:19:32career railway workers, who worry about their passengers.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35That is why they are on strike and why they have been out for 28
0:19:35 > 0:19:39days now and why they have turned down Charles Loughton's bribe.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42days now and why they have turned down Charles Horton's bribe.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44What the gentleman asked over there...
0:19:44 > 0:19:45Why is it a bribe?
0:19:45 > 0:19:49He said if you go away and be quiet we will give you ?2,000.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51But that's not what he said.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54But that's what he offered with his eight-point plan
0:19:54 > 0:19:55we wouldn't take it.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56Is that a bribe?
0:19:56 > 0:19:59In the end is this a wider discussion for you and the unions,
0:19:59 > 0:20:01about protecting jobs that aren't being taken away?
0:20:01 > 0:20:04We'll go to Charles Horton and then come back to you. We made a
0:20:04 > 0:20:06comprehensive eight-point offer which covered guarantees on jobs
0:20:06 > 0:20:08and guaranteed methods of working and talked
0:20:08 > 0:20:10about the training that we would give people.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Part of it was an offer...
0:20:12 > 0:20:13We didn't ask for those.
0:20:13 > 0:20:14If I may.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16To help people through the transition.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19We did say you can have a payment of ?2,000 to help you
0:20:19 > 0:20:20with the transition.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23Do you think you owe an apology to all the users of these routes?
0:20:23 > 0:20:25I do apologise, but Charles must apologise as well.
0:20:26 > 0:20:27He apologised at the beginning.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30I do apologiese for the disruption.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34If you go back to the beginning of this year there was no dispute
0:20:34 > 0:20:38on Southern and Charles came forward with a plan to remove guards.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42We told him before he did that, if you do that there will be trouble.
0:20:42 > 0:20:43Aslef told him the same thing.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45He chose to go forward.
0:20:45 > 0:20:50The DFT try to get the Scottish Government to do the same thing.
0:20:50 > 0:20:57The Scottish Transport Minister looked at it and said
0:20:57 > 0:20:59"I'm not going there, I don't need to replace guards."
0:20:59 > 0:21:02It said he's not going to make any money out of it,
0:21:02 > 0:21:05he could have left the guards in place, had an efficient
0:21:05 > 0:21:09service and run the system the way he wants to.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11On the basis of Southern's performance, I've already read out
0:21:11 > 0:21:14some of the statistics, you and some of your Conservative
0:21:14 > 0:21:17colleagues and also Caroline Lucas, the Green MP, and Peter Carr,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19the Labour MP, have said that Southern is a disgrace.
0:21:19 > 0:21:20It has an appalling record.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23Caroline Pidgeon is calling for the company to be
0:21:23 > 0:21:24stripped of its franchise.
0:21:24 > 0:21:26Why has the government not done something about a company
0:21:26 > 0:21:29whose fare money it takes and whom the taxpayer has to fund
0:21:29 > 0:21:32when you have to compensate commuters who do not get to work
0:21:32 > 0:21:33or get home on time?
0:21:33 > 0:21:38APPLAUSE.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41The way franchise agreements all work is they have a clause
0:21:41 > 0:21:44within them that if the poor performance is not down
0:21:44 > 0:21:45to the rail operator but down
0:21:45 > 0:21:50to either Network Rail or unofficial orofficial industrial action
0:21:50 > 0:21:53to either Network Rail or unofficial or official industrial action
0:21:53 > 0:21:55and you cannot strip a franchise operator of that franchise.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58The irony of the union action is we cannot tell whether this poor
0:21:58 > 0:22:01performance is down to Southern's management, yet, because it is
0:22:01 > 0:22:04currently still being investigated by the Department for Transport.
0:22:04 > 0:22:08If the unions gave away on this issue and returned back to work
0:22:08 > 0:22:11we could really see if Southern are capable of running the system.
0:22:11 > 0:22:12We can't right now.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15If I go to this gentleman in the second row.
0:22:15 > 0:22:22Yes?
0:22:22 > 0:22:24My name is Steve and I'm from Eastbourne.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27I'm an ex-train driver, up to about six years ago I worked
0:22:27 > 0:22:30for Southern Rail who were a very good company to work for.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33I worked at different depots and I have worked DOO and non-DOO
0:22:33 > 0:22:36and I can say categorically you can run a train service DOO
0:22:36 > 0:22:40but on the events that have happened to me over a period of years,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43the travelling public are far less safe on the DOO train
0:22:43 > 0:22:45that they are when there is a guard on-board.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47I have had stabbings which couldn't be investigated early
0:22:47 > 0:22:51enough and mass gang fights and inconvenience.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54What you say about the 30% of trains and services in Britain
0:22:54 > 0:22:56that are run on DOO?
0:22:56 > 0:22:59In an ideal world they should all have a safety trained
0:22:59 > 0:23:04guard and I think Charles is being economical with the truth
0:23:04 > 0:23:08because you say you will put a second member of staff on board
0:23:08 > 0:23:12but in exceptional circumstances it may not happen, well, I take
0:23:12 > 0:23:16Huw's point that perhaps the union and Southern could decide
0:23:16 > 0:23:20what is exceptional and what isn't otherwise it is subjective.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24More importantly, please, at the moment the guards are safety
0:23:24 > 0:23:27trained to a very high level which can include, for example,
0:23:27 > 0:23:32leaving the train to late emergency protection, I believe.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35leaving the train to lay emergency protection, I believe.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37In the current climate, with the fear of terrorism,
0:23:37 > 0:23:40will the new OBS be trained to exactly the same safety levels
0:23:40 > 0:23:41that the current guards are?
0:23:41 > 0:23:42What are the OBS?
0:23:42 > 0:23:46On-board supervisor.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Not relevant to the role, which I've heard your spokespeople say before.
0:23:49 > 0:23:50What you say about being able
0:23:50 > 0:23:52to state categorically what the exceptional
0:23:52 > 0:23:53circumstances might be?
0:23:53 > 0:23:57That was part of the offer we made to be RMT but they weren't
0:23:57 > 0:23:58willing to talk about it.
0:23:58 > 0:23:59Right.
0:23:59 > 0:24:00Steve is right...
0:24:00 > 0:24:03They are not trained safety critical staff.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05They have the same status on that train as a passenger.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08They cannot intervene with the protection of the railway,
0:24:08 > 0:24:09they can't go on the track.
0:24:09 > 0:24:15That is simply, simply untrue.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19The on-board supervisors are trained in all emergency and evacuation
0:24:19 > 0:24:23procedures on the train.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27The only thing they are not trained to do is to use a very old-fashioned
0:24:27 > 0:24:29procedure which involves going onto the track and laying
0:24:29 > 0:24:36detonators after walking a mile and a quarter down the track,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39which is a procedure which is rarely used now, if ever,
0:24:39 > 0:24:45and actually has been superseded by trains now having a modern GSR
0:24:45 > 0:24:48radio on there where the driver pushes one button and can
0:24:48 > 0:24:51stop all trains around and about his train so that is
0:24:51 > 0:24:56the reality of the situation.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00I am sorry, when Mick keeps saying, safety trained, safety
0:25:00 > 0:25:01trained, safety trained.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04We are training our people...
0:25:04 > 0:25:06Are you listening to each other?
0:25:06 > 0:25:14When you speak, are you listening to what the other person says?
0:25:14 > 0:25:19APPLAUSE.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21We listen to each other but we don't agree.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24Do you listen with hands over your ears and say
0:25:24 > 0:25:26you have an entrenched position and you are not moving.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28This is both of you.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30We can't go any further with the dilution of safety
0:25:30 > 0:25:31regulation on the railway.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34We are not prepared to be party to diluting safety
0:25:34 > 0:25:35standards on the railway.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36How do you get round this?
0:25:36 > 0:25:38This is the incredibly frustrating piece.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41Back in the summer, when I spoke to the leader of the RMT,
0:25:41 > 0:25:44and I take my hat off to you, you negotiated a really good
0:25:44 > 0:25:45deal for your members.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48You've got job guarantees, but it must be right if the train
0:25:48 > 0:25:51can safely move in exceptional circumstances, and that can't be
0:25:51 > 0:25:55because there aren't enough second crew members employed,
0:25:55 > 0:25:58it has to be that they are stuck somewhere else, then
0:25:58 > 0:26:02surely we can sit down and write it, and I will help you write it.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05To me we are not that far apart and yet we have 300,000 people
0:26:05 > 0:26:08unable to get to work or study each day and it's madness.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11How would you, if Transport for London were to take
0:26:11 > 0:26:12over the running of these suburban
0:26:12 > 0:26:14rail lines, how would you resolve
0:26:14 > 0:26:15the London Underground strike action
0:26:15 > 0:26:16that's happened with the RMT?
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Clearly we need to have good industrial relations and they broken
0:26:19 > 0:26:22down clearly between Southern and the unions and that is
0:26:22 > 0:26:26for the Mayor of London
0:26:26 > 0:26:29and TFL to develop good industrial relations and clearly at the moment
0:26:29 > 0:26:31with threats of the strike on the Underground we
0:26:31 > 0:26:35are not in that place.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38With this dispute, would you accept Mick Lynch's proposal and demand
0:26:38 > 0:26:41for a safety critical person, a second person in that role
0:26:41 > 0:26:44on every train on Southern.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47We have heard very clearly from Charles Horton that there
0:26:47 > 0:26:49would be two people on every train.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52The trains I am on don't have a second person and actually
0:26:52 > 0:26:55I think we need to move forward and I think binding arbitration
0:26:55 > 0:26:58should be legislated for so actually when we get these disputes
0:26:58 > 0:27:00they should be resolved quickly.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03You would be in the same position if you were in this
0:27:03 > 0:27:04dispute, you accept that.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07Charles, I say to you, if you give us that guarantee
0:27:07 > 0:27:10and you guarantee a second person on each train,
0:27:10 > 0:27:12we jointly define their safety critical competencies
0:27:12 > 0:27:16and you guarantee they will be there we can go out the back
0:27:16 > 0:27:21now and write a deal.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23I've given you the papers already.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25You can hear how much they want this to happen
0:27:25 > 0:27:27and they have waited long enough.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29Mick Lynch and Charles Horton, if you now have the opportunity,
0:27:29 > 0:27:32as Mick Lynch has just said, there is a room just
0:27:32 > 0:27:36to the side of the stage where you could thrash this out.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Would you do it?
0:27:39 > 0:27:41Would you do it now, with Huw Merriman could sit
0:27:41 > 0:27:44there and Caroline Pidgeon to join you and adjudicate.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46Would you thrash out a deal?
0:27:46 > 0:27:54APPLAUSE AND CHEERING.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56You're a lawyer by trade, that could be helpful.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Could it work, seriously?
0:27:58 > 0:28:02Absolutely.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05It is incredibly frustrating for you all and for me because you hear
0:28:05 > 0:28:08a lot of differences but then you see they are not that far apart
0:28:08 > 0:28:11but the reality is when you take them separately it
0:28:11 > 0:28:14doesn't go anywhere so I absolutely agree that it would be fantastic
0:28:14 > 0:28:17if the two parties could sit down but would also just put
0:28:17 > 0:28:19things behind them and be reasonable with the approach,
0:28:19 > 0:28:22which means if it is safe to have this practice then accept it
0:28:22 > 0:28:26and if there is more that can be done to get the unions
0:28:26 > 0:28:29where they need to be and make stations extra safe, then let's
0:28:29 > 0:28:30accept it, it is possible.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33At this point I would like to thank the panel and the audience
0:28:33 > 0:28:36and you can continue the debate on BBC Radio London with Duncan
0:28:36 > 0:28:39Barkes from 10pm tonight and all have your say now on the BBC
0:28:39 > 0:28:42London Facebook page and on Twitter Southernstrike.
0:28:42 > 0:28:51From all of us here, thank you and goodbye.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05Hello, I'm Riz Lateef with your 90-second update.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08Too many people go to A with minor problems.
0:29:08 > 0:29:10That's according to the Health Secretary.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13He said the target in England of seeing patients within four hours
0:29:13 > 0:29:15was only meant to apply to urgent cases.