:00:00. > :00:00.at the top of the hour, it now though, and one of his last major
:00:00. > :00:09.interviews as president of Afghanistan, Hom and Karzai speaks
:00:10. > :00:19.to the BBC's Yalkda Hakim. `` Hamid Karzai.
:00:20. > :00:24.Afghanistan has come a long way from 2001, from the almost premodern days
:00:25. > :00:28.of the Taliban, but it has cost hundreds of billions of dollars and
:00:29. > :00:30.tens of thousands of lives, and as the Afghans argue with Americans
:00:31. > :00:38.about a bilateral security agreement, its president continues
:00:39. > :00:47.to be an ally one day and then append the next. , Karzai has had
:00:48. > :00:53.trouble relationships with Western countries. He has often had very
:00:54. > :00:56.different objectives. Now there is only six months left until elections
:00:57. > :01:00.for his successor, so what does he really think about the United
:01:01. > :01:09.States, the Taliban, Britain's war in Helmand Mister Mark `` hell man?
:01:10. > :01:16.I have come to the presidential palace to meet him. There is no
:01:17. > :01:22.doubt that the country has grown, developed and come a long way in the
:01:23. > :01:28.last 12 years. Why then do the Americans, President Obama, called
:01:29. > :01:35.you and unreliable, ineffective partner? They call me and unreliable
:01:36. > :01:39.partner because where they want us to go along we do not go along. They
:01:40. > :01:44.want us to keep silent when civilians are killed and stop we
:01:45. > :01:52.will not, we cannot. This is our country. It is my job to protect the
:01:53. > :01:59.Afghan people. They want us to agree to their terms for relationships. We
:02:00. > :02:02.have our own interests. Naturally, in a situation like that, they would
:02:03. > :02:08.call is not an ally, as we would call them not an ally. Is it not the
:02:09. > :02:12.case that your relationship with President Bush was better than your
:02:13. > :02:16.relationship with President Obama, because his main focus has been the
:02:17. > :02:24.exit strategy? How has that been for you? It is not personal. I had a
:02:25. > :02:30.very good president `` relationship with President Bush, but this
:02:31. > :02:36.beginning years, there was not much difference of opinion between us,
:02:37. > :02:44.and we had not experienced what we experienced laser and with `` what
:02:45. > :02:52.we experienced later on. The worsening of relations began
:02:53. > :03:00.actually in 2005, where we saw the first incidence of civilian
:03:01. > :03:04.casualties, where we saw that the war on terror was not conducted
:03:05. > :03:13.where it should have been, which was in the sanctuaries, in the training
:03:14. > :03:18.grounds, rather than that, the US forces were in Afghan villages,
:03:19. > :03:25.causing harm to the Afghan villages `` and people. They tried to attack
:03:26. > :03:32.me in their media and also in their politics, to weaken me and my
:03:33. > :03:40.resolve and render me helpless in Afghanistan. It did not happen. The
:03:41. > :03:45.Afghan people thought other ways. It is not that we do not want to have a
:03:46. > :03:50.relationship. We want to have a relationship, a relationship where
:03:51. > :03:54.Afghanistan is respected, the Afghan people I respected, the interests of
:03:55. > :04:00.the Afghan people are taking in mind, and the dignity of human life
:04:01. > :04:08.is considered worthy of attention. That is what we want. We are not
:04:09. > :04:13.trying to do things that run counter to their interests, but the
:04:14. > :04:22.interests of the US, they must not be at the cost of the Afghan people.
:04:23. > :04:28.You have also been criticised for talking the talk talk with your own
:04:29. > :04:30.audience here in Afghanistan, and appearing to tough talk with the
:04:31. > :04:35.Americans, but at the end of the day, they will do what they want.
:04:36. > :04:41.They are able to do that because they have the means to it. We do not
:04:42. > :04:49.have the means to it. The only thing that we have is a voice, our voice,
:04:50. > :04:55.and that we use. Beyond that, we have no other means. The bilateral
:04:56. > :05:03.security agreement, let's talk about that. That defines the US and Afghan
:05:04. > :05:10.relationship. At the moment you are negotiating. What is your bottom
:05:11. > :05:15.line? This is a very important document. In this document, we are
:05:16. > :05:25.to provide the United States with nine bases in Afghanistan. With
:05:26. > :05:34.certain arrangements in Afghanistan. And those arrangements
:05:35. > :05:38.should not run counter to the sovereignty of Afghanistan. Another
:05:39. > :05:44.crucial thing in this is immunity, the legal protection from Afghan law
:05:45. > :05:50.for any remainder American soldiers to stay here beyond withdrawal. The
:05:51. > :05:58.Americans will never leave if they do not have that community. The ``
:05:59. > :06:05.that immunity. If the immunity does not run counter to Afghan
:06:06. > :06:14.sovereignty, and if it does not provide them the rights to go and
:06:15. > :06:19.fire at Afghan homes, launch attacks against Afghan homes, the Afghan
:06:20. > :06:26.people will consider how to grant that, but in order to have that
:06:27. > :06:37.happen, the Afghan people must be sure that security and peace is
:06:38. > :06:43.brought and that's violations are not brought by them and Afghan lives
:06:44. > :06:48.or Afghan property. So it is possible for an American soldier to
:06:49. > :06:52.kill an Afghan family, as has happened in the past, and they may
:06:53. > :07:00.not be prosecuted here in Afghanistan stop. Is impossible.
:07:01. > :07:11.That would be considered a premeditated murder. Immunity
:07:12. > :07:19.can... If it is provided, it can only be provided when an American is
:07:20. > :07:25.on his official duties and during the performance of his duties by
:07:26. > :07:29.accident. Who determines this accident? This has to be thought
:07:30. > :07:34.out. These are issues that we are still working on. They could be on
:07:35. > :07:39.tour of duty, they could shoot an Afghan. Who determines then that it
:07:40. > :07:43.was a mistake or an accident Mister Mark these are issues that we are
:07:44. > :07:50.still working out, and that is why we have not reached an agreement
:07:51. > :07:53.yet. I know you are in a difficult position. You cannot Tommy whether
:07:54. > :07:58.American soldiers will have immunity from Afghan law. After brutality.
:07:59. > :08:04.Dylan acro they will not have immunity from aft damn lot...
:08:05. > :08:13.All of these issues, all of these comments concerning immunity are
:08:14. > :08:20.still under discussion. We have not yet reached an agreement. At the end
:08:21. > :08:24.of the day, and Americans will do what they want, and if you push too
:08:25. > :08:31.hard, they may not stay. Is that something that worries you? If the
:08:32. > :08:35.agreement does not suit us, they can leave. The agreement has two suits
:08:36. > :08:45.Afghanistan's interests and purposes. . If it does not suit us,
:08:46. > :08:49.and if it does not suit them, then naturally, we will go our separate
:08:50. > :08:53.ways. If this agreement does not provide Afghanistan peace and
:08:54. > :08:59.security, the Afghans will not want it. That is very clear. If this
:09:00. > :09:03.agreement does not provide Afghanistan to Georgy and peace, the
:09:04. > :09:11.Afghans will not want it. That is the only reasons the Afghans would
:09:12. > :09:17.ever agree to the presence of foreign forces beyond 2014. What
:09:18. > :09:24.would you like to see the British forces do here? Written does not
:09:25. > :09:29.want to have a large presence in Afghanistan. They want to stay in
:09:30. > :09:39.train our forces, especially our military and police. They have
:09:40. > :09:44.already began to build a nice Sandhurst type institution for us,
:09:45. > :09:50.for which we are rightful. Could US ask for me what went right and what
:09:51. > :09:58.went wrong for the British here in Afghanistan? What went wrong was of
:09:59. > :10:06.course the casualties of their forces, for which we are sorry. That
:10:07. > :10:11.is also exactly what went wrong for Afghanistan. We had so many
:10:12. > :10:20.casualties of our people. They spent their money more accurately, in
:10:21. > :10:24.better places, and through the Afghan... And the criticism and
:10:25. > :10:33.feelings that were experienced in Helmand Mister Mark it is not only
:10:34. > :10:40.Britain. It is not only Britain. On the security front, the entire
:10:41. > :10:50.exercise was one that cost Afghanistan a lot of suffering and a
:10:51. > :10:58.lot of loss of life, and no games, because the country is not secure.
:10:59. > :11:06.`` no gains. What we wanted was absolute security and a clear cut
:11:07. > :11:11.were against terrorism. If there were politics played it, it was by
:11:12. > :11:17.the whole lot of NATO and the United States. Britain was not alone in
:11:18. > :11:20.that. You said that relationships reached rock bottom a number of
:11:21. > :11:24.times, and you have made some extraordinary claims against the
:11:25. > :11:29.Americans. You said earlier this year that after an attack, those
:11:30. > :11:34.bonds said `` set up in the name of the Taliban with the service... What
:11:35. > :11:39.were you thinking when you set that? I was thinking exactly the
:11:40. > :11:47.same thing. I was thinking the words that I said. I meant what I said.
:11:48. > :11:52.What are you implying? This means... You see, let's put it this
:11:53. > :11:58.way so I can explain it better. When we began to speak of 2014, when we
:11:59. > :12:05.began to speak of the transition, when we began to speak of the
:12:06. > :12:11.strategic partnership and the security agreement of the United
:12:12. > :12:18.States, and when 2014 became the deadline for that, the Western media
:12:19. > :12:22.began to undermine confidence in Afghanistan. They began to tell the
:12:23. > :12:28.Afghan people that if the US is not here, they would have daggers drawn
:12:29. > :12:33.at each other. If the US is not there, they would be dying of
:12:34. > :12:40.starvation. If the US is not there, they would be in Civil War to stop
:12:41. > :12:44.all things would go wrong. That was wrong. They were doing that in order
:12:45. > :12:50.to force us to agree to the terms and conditions that they set for
:12:51. > :12:56.their documents. It was not just the Western media. The US special envoy
:12:57. > :12:59.to Afghanistan and Pakistan said that Afghanistan is already in a
:13:00. > :13:05.state of civil war. He was wrong, and I read two President Obama about
:13:06. > :13:09.that. If Afghanistan was in a civil war, then the United States was
:13:10. > :13:13.conducting a war in Afghanistan with one Afghan against the other
:13:14. > :13:17.Afghan, and the Afghans would never allow for power to come into play
:13:18. > :13:23.one Afghan against the other. Therefore, the whole state of the
:13:24. > :13:28.United States and NATO and Afghanistan in the past 12 years
:13:29. > :13:31.becomes illegitimate and an interference in Afghanistan's
:13:32. > :13:36.internal affairs. If this war is not a war on terror, if this war is not
:13:37. > :13:41.a war against Al`Qaeda, and if they are here to side with one Afghan
:13:42. > :13:46.against another Afghan, then this becomes an interference in our
:13:47. > :13:53.internal affairs. The US president, from President Bush to President
:13:54. > :14:00.Obama, they have repeatedly said they are here to defend their
:14:01. > :14:04.interests and security. But when you say that statement, that in the name
:14:05. > :14:16.of the Caliban they work for the Americans, are you implying that
:14:17. > :14:21.they support the Caliban `` Taliban. It would be a very serious statement
:14:22. > :14:31.if I said that directly. But I can tell you this. In the country, in
:14:32. > :14:39.the villages of Afghanistan, a lot of people believe that the supplies
:14:40. > :14:46.are given by the foreign forces. Are these conspiracies? This has been
:14:47. > :14:49.coming to us for a long time, and I have raised this in comments and
:14:50. > :14:57.with Western powers. In the countryside people believe that the
:14:58. > :15:07.Taliban are being kept from across our borders. Also the day before
:15:08. > :15:22.yesterday I received a report from the governor near Kandahar that in
:15:23. > :15:28.one district, in one village, the NATO helicopters dropped containers
:15:29. > :15:34.in an area which is beyond the reach of the Afghan government. We are
:15:35. > :15:41.investigating this. To potentially support the Taliban? What else could
:15:42. > :15:46.it be? If there are drops of containers, in that area, from the
:15:47. > :15:50.helicopters, and they land there and they bring in things, where the
:15:51. > :15:54.Afghan government is not present, the Afghan forces are not present,
:15:55. > :16:03.what else would it be? In any case we are not saying this is exactly
:16:04. > :16:07.how it is, that they are doing this to support the Taliban, we are just
:16:08. > :16:14.bewildered and confused. The Afghan people do not know what it is that
:16:15. > :16:22.is happening here, whether there is really a war on terror, or an effort
:16:23. > :16:26.to create instability to find reason to continue the presence here. After
:16:27. > :16:30.billions of dollars have been spent and thousands of US and NATO troops
:16:31. > :16:35.have been killed on the intention could be something else? Probably.
:16:36. > :16:41.We are not saying that it is something else. We are simply not
:16:42. > :16:48.clear about the intentions. This lack of clarity that drives you in
:16:49. > :16:51.different directions. Direction one, this is generally a war against
:16:52. > :16:57.terrorism, direction too, it is not. What it is can only be a broader,
:16:58. > :17:06.bigger, international thing. For example, in the peace process when
:17:07. > :17:09.we bring the Taliban to Afghanistan in the pursuit of peace, suddenly we
:17:10. > :18:05.find them taken as prisoners. Be part of this country's prosperity
:18:06. > :18:12.and peace, and participate in the revision of this country. In this,
:18:13. > :18:16.if the Taliban have reasons for which they cannot come, they must
:18:17. > :18:21.spell this out as to what it is that prevents them from coming. If it is
:18:22. > :18:26.the Afghan constitution, they must come and talk to us, and allow the
:18:27. > :18:30.Afghan people, through the mechanisms that we have, to amend
:18:31. > :18:32.the Constitution. Other than that, we see no reason for them not to be
:18:33. > :19:10.in the country. According to the Constitution of
:19:11. > :19:15.Afghanistan, they can vote in elections wherever they want. Yes,
:19:16. > :19:27.as Afghans, they are welcome to the Afghan garment come alike all other
:19:28. > :19:30.Afghans. A British or an American audience watching this would wonder,
:19:31. > :19:37.what does all this for Mister Mark 12 years of fighting and the Taliban
:19:38. > :19:41.would just walk back in and be a part of government. When the
:19:42. > :19:44.Americans have told us to ourselves, in Washington in my last visit, that
:19:45. > :19:49.the Taliban are not their enemies, that they will not attack the
:19:50. > :20:00.Taliban anymore, and we welcome that, and our question then was,
:20:01. > :20:04.well, then, who is your enemy? They say they are here to fight Al`Qaeda
:20:05. > :20:08.and their affiliates. They want to have bases here in order to continue
:20:09. > :20:24.their fight against Al`Qaeda and their affiliates. The The West is
:20:25. > :20:29.saying to us now that they are here to fight the Taliban and Al`Qaeda
:20:30. > :20:35.for the last 12 years, but now they are not here to fight the Taliban,
:20:36. > :20:40.that's beyond 2014, they will not be fighting the Taliban, that they will
:20:41. > :20:44.only be concentrating on Al`Qaeda and their affiliates, who are very
:20:45. > :20:49.few in number, they say, in Afghanistan. So Al`Qaeda is not a
:20:50. > :20:56.threat in Afghanistan or its borders? We have asked this
:20:57. > :21:03.question, if you say you are here to fight Al`Qaeda from 2014 onwards on
:21:04. > :21:13.the and nobody else, then how strong is Al`Qaeda? If there are less than
:21:14. > :21:41.100 and Afghanistan, that is a very insignificant force. It is
:21:42. > :21:48.individuals, it is not a force. This country needs to have peace. You
:21:49. > :21:56.have witnessed the village, the people who were killed by the US
:21:57. > :22:04.soldier last year. There are daily losses to the Afghan people every
:22:05. > :22:07.day in our villages, either by the Taliban or in attacks against them
:22:08. > :22:34.by the Afghan Government or the US forces. Right now we have women in
:22:35. > :22:40.the cities benefiting from the freedoms and the opportunities that
:22:41. > :22:43.the new government has given. In the villages of Afghanistan, Afghan
:22:44. > :22:48.women suffer like hell. Don't those women also have the right to be part
:22:49. > :22:53.of a better future? Don't do those little girls also have the right to
:22:54. > :22:57.go to school and to have safety and security? Or should part of our
:22:58. > :23:03.country be in peace and prosperity and the other part of our country,
:23:04. > :23:08.little girls cannot go to school? So women in Afghanistan should not have
:23:09. > :23:14.the fear of the return of the Taliban? None at all. I can speak
:23:15. > :23:19.with absolute confidence on that, on behalf of the Afghan people. Let's
:23:20. > :23:24.talk about the election process. There are a number of very good and
:23:25. > :23:31.capable candidates. Who do you see as a likely successor? I cannot say
:23:32. > :23:36.that. The only thing that I have done so far is to arrange an
:23:37. > :23:43.election that is national, that brings the Afghan people together,
:23:44. > :23:48.that brings people together, joining hands with one another, so we can
:23:49. > :23:54.have a national scene of candidacy for presidency and vice presidency
:23:55. > :23:59.and the Afghan people can decide. There is not a single living Afghan
:24:00. > :24:05.leader. They have all been killed in a very violent way. Are you
:24:06. > :24:10.concerned about her safety when you leave office? Not at all. I will be
:24:11. > :24:15.safe, and when the time comes, I will not be there, it is not a
:24:16. > :24:18.concern. Will you stay in Afghanistan? Shore. The government
:24:19. > :24:25.is building a house for me just behind this office. A better house
:24:26. > :24:29.than the one I have now. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.
:24:30. > :24:32.Good to talk to you. Thank you.