:00:00. > :00:00.Stephen Sackur speaks exclusively to the Russian Foreign
:00:00. > :00:28.A very warm welcome to this BBC News special, with me Stephen Sackur. It
:00:29. > :00:33.is one year since Vladimir Putin launched Russia's military campaign
:00:34. > :00:38.in Syria, and intervention which in its size and scope, took the world
:00:39. > :00:43.by surprise. The initial aim was to turn the tide of a conflict which
:00:44. > :00:47.was running against's strategic ally, President Bashar al-Assad.
:00:48. > :00:52.That has been achieved. The Syrian government backed by Russian air
:00:53. > :00:55.power is now on the offensive, most notably in a continued ferocious
:00:56. > :01:02.assault on the rebel held areas of Aleppo. So what is Russia's endgame
:01:03. > :01:06.in Syria? I'm joined for an exclusive interview from Moscow, by
:01:07. > :01:12.Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. Foreign Minister I think we
:01:13. > :01:15.have to start with a situation on the granting Aleppo, for the last
:01:16. > :01:22.week or more we have seen most ferocious bombardment by Russian and
:01:23. > :01:27.Syrian warplanes. Doctors on the ground say that more than 400 people
:01:28. > :01:32.have been killed, the UN special envoy has talked about evidence of
:01:33. > :01:39.crimes that may have been committed, why are you doing this? Well I think
:01:40. > :01:44.to understand what is going on, you have to go a bit back into the
:01:45. > :01:48.history of how this started. The day is exactly one year since President
:01:49. > :01:53.Putin at the request of President Assad agreed to send our air force,
:01:54. > :01:59.to help fight terrorists in Syria. And from the very beginning, we
:02:00. > :02:04.propose to the American led coalition to start coordination, of
:02:05. > :02:07.these operations, and to distinguish, to separate actually
:02:08. > :02:12.the opposition which was cooperating with the coalition, led by the
:02:13. > :02:19.United States, from al-Nusra, Isil and other groups. The Americans, as
:02:20. > :02:27.you know, it took them I think several months, a couple of months
:02:28. > :02:30.at least, until in December, we created the International Syria
:02:31. > :02:34.support group where they pledged solemnly to take as a priority and
:02:35. > :02:41.obligation to separate the opposition from Nusra. They still
:02:42. > :02:48.despite many repeated promises, they are still not able or not willing to
:02:49. > :02:52.do this. And, we have more and more reasons to believe, that from the
:02:53. > :02:59.very beginning, the plan was to spare Nusra, and keep it just in
:03:00. > :03:05.case, for plan B or for stage two, when it would be time to change the
:03:06. > :03:14.regime. I can only recall speaking of Aleppo, that in August this year,
:03:15. > :03:19.the opposition were more than 50%, were Nusra, as confirmed by the
:03:20. > :03:25.United Nations. Has taken the southern western suburb of Aleppo,
:03:26. > :03:29.cutting off 1.5 million people. And basically organising a siege,
:03:30. > :03:39.preventing them from getting any supplies by the most easy and
:03:40. > :03:43.available route. And there was no noise, no hysterical statement. The
:03:44. > :03:49.Western people as far as I do stand around the show, they thought that
:03:50. > :03:53.this would be the prelude, to Aleppo being taken by the opposition. Now
:03:54. > :03:58.the situation is different, and we hear all of these noises. If I may,
:03:59. > :04:02.I do stand what you are saying Foreign Minister but I need to ask
:04:03. > :04:08.you about the situation the ground -- I do understand what you are
:04:09. > :04:12.saying. We have seen evidence of civilians being killed, in their own
:04:13. > :04:16.basements, bunkers, by your Russian-made bunker busting bombs.
:04:17. > :04:23.The doctors have told us of the scale of the casualties, why is
:04:24. > :04:26.Russia continuing with this bombardment when you know what you
:04:27. > :04:34.are doing to the civilian population? Well I am coming to it
:04:35. > :04:37.actually, I am getting to it. We take all necessary precautions not
:04:38. > :04:44.to hit civilians. The term collateral damage was invented not
:04:45. > :04:48.by us, you know by whom. And we are taking as I said, the most tricked
:04:49. > :04:54.precautions to make sure that we don't hit civilians by any chance.
:04:55. > :04:59.If this happens, well we are very sorry but we need to investigate
:05:00. > :05:05.each and every accusation. So far we have not been given any meaningful
:05:06. > :05:09.proof of what is being said about the convoy, which was bombed or
:05:10. > :05:15.attacked on the 19th of September, and which we have good reasons to
:05:16. > :05:19.believe was a provocation. We can talk about the convoy in a minute,
:05:20. > :05:23.but if you want evidence of your forces are doing on the ground in
:05:24. > :05:29.Aleppo, I can provide some. We have seen one of your unexploded bunker
:05:30. > :05:33.busting bombs, actually filmed on the ground in Aleppo, so we know
:05:34. > :05:38.that you are deploying those weapons. We also have seen clear
:05:39. > :05:44.evidence of an century phosphorus munitions, being used. Which again
:05:45. > :05:52.come from Russia. Cluster bombs as well, these are Russian munitions,
:05:53. > :05:59.which violate laws of warfare. Well, we are not using any munition which
:06:00. > :06:03.is prohibited by the United Nations, I can assure you. About the
:06:04. > :06:08.situation in Aleppo, the entire problem derives from the fact that
:06:09. > :06:14.United States and the coalition led by the knighted States, cannot and
:06:15. > :06:18.basically refuses to separate the opposition, from Nusra, and the
:06:19. > :06:22.terrorist groups that join Nusra. Instead of separation we see more
:06:23. > :06:26.and more groups coming into alliance with Nusra, and there whenever we
:06:27. > :06:27.hit Nusra we are told that we shouldn't do this because there are
:06:28. > :06:43.good people next to it all in the middle Nusra's position. Then this
:06:44. > :06:46.is a vicious circle, we cannot fight terrorists unless we all agree that
:06:47. > :06:48.those who want to be part of the solution and the cessation of
:06:49. > :06:51.hostilities, get out from the positions occupied by them. This is
:06:52. > :06:53.as simple as that, but from the beginning of the US operation in
:06:54. > :06:56.Syria, they started by very reluctantly hitting Isil, and they
:06:57. > :07:01.only went after Isil in a real way, after we started our operation, as
:07:02. > :07:05.for Nusra, they never touched Nusra anywhere in Syria, I raised this
:07:06. > :07:09.problem with John Kerry every time we to look and we talk basically
:07:10. > :07:15.every day. And today would be another one as far as I understand,
:07:16. > :07:20.at the request of Washington. And he keeps promising that as soon as we
:07:21. > :07:25.stop flying, as soon as Assad stops flying, they will start separating
:07:26. > :07:31.or thinking about separation. By the way, we had many pauses, many
:07:32. > :07:34.humanitarian pauses during this year, 48 hours, 72 hours at the
:07:35. > :07:40.request of the United Nations. Every time, these have been used by Nusra
:07:41. > :07:45.to get from abroad more fighters, more munitions and more weapons, so
:07:46. > :07:49.there must be some first step. There must be some first step and we need
:07:50. > :07:52.to get our priorities right. Humanitarian things are very
:07:53. > :07:56.important and we are doing everything now, together with the
:07:57. > :08:03.Syrian government, we make sure, to help the United Nations to get
:08:04. > :08:08.weekly things in to Aleppo. It is the Nusra controlled people in
:08:09. > :08:11.eastern Aleppo who refuse to do this until there is total quiet because
:08:12. > :08:17.they run short of the mission and the weapons and they need resupply.
:08:18. > :08:20.It is as simple as it is. You talk about your contacts with the
:08:21. > :08:24.Americans, you will know better than me that over the last 12 or so
:08:25. > :08:31.hours, the message from Washington has been simple, unless you stop the
:08:32. > :08:36.bombing in Aleppo now, then the Americans say that they will end all
:08:37. > :08:41.diplomatic contact with you, they will end all talk of military
:08:42. > :08:47.coordination and they will look "At all other options". Are you prepared
:08:48. > :08:51.to end the bombing or not? Well they also said that Russia would be
:08:52. > :08:58.losing aeroplanes, soldiers and Russian cities would be attacked. It
:08:59. > :09:04.was unacceptable threats, and maybe this was a signal that those who
:09:05. > :09:08.want to do this can start. It is absolutely unacceptable, and
:09:09. > :09:11.deplorable I would say. As for global operation, there was never
:09:12. > :09:18.cooperation between the two military 's of Russia and the United States
:09:19. > :09:25.except 40 conviction. What we did have, whilst discussions and
:09:26. > :09:28.negotiations -- except for deconfliction. We did begin
:09:29. > :09:32.discussions sometimes in March, which the Americans did not want to
:09:33. > :09:39.make public. Every time we said let's make it public, after we had
:09:40. > :09:44.negotiated another part of it, another part John Kerry came to
:09:45. > :09:50.Moscow in July, and we finalised a very good document. By the way, the
:09:51. > :09:53.document started with a pledge to separate the opposition, the healthy
:09:54. > :10:00.opposition so to say, the moderate is from Nusra. And it was never
:10:01. > :10:03.done, and they were always shy, to make the documents public.
:10:04. > :10:08.Eventually when we finalised the package of five documents on the 9th
:10:09. > :10:13.of September, we decided that this was the time, you know to start in
:10:14. > :10:19.fermenting them. And D-Day was announced on the of September. The
:10:20. > :10:23.cessation of hostilities held for a couple of days, the Syrian
:10:24. > :10:30.government, did start pulling back its forces from the castello, and
:10:31. > :10:38.the opposition never did, instead they started firing, at the forces
:10:39. > :10:42.on the castello Road. The Syrian forces established its checkpoint on
:10:43. > :10:46.the castello, the opposition was supposed to establish its own, they
:10:47. > :10:52.never did, on the castello Road. Now the castello Road cannot be used
:10:53. > :10:56.because the opposition threatens to fire at any humanitarian convoy
:10:57. > :11:05.using the castello Road. This is a fact. Let me just up you there, it
:11:06. > :11:08.is very interesting. You did stop me there. Yes and thank you for
:11:09. > :11:13.answering the questions. You said that the American struck at the
:11:14. > :11:16.military post, and it is right, the evidence is clear, and imagine say
:11:17. > :11:20.it was a mistake and they apologise for the loss of life in that
:11:21. > :11:29.particular incident. They accuse you as do many international observers
:11:30. > :11:32.and indeed UN officials, of being responsible for an air strike on the
:11:33. > :11:36.aid convoy. You have never admitted doing it despite the clear evidence
:11:37. > :11:42.that it involved the Russian military, now is your opportunity to
:11:43. > :11:46.apologise for that. Well, if as you say there is clear evidence that
:11:47. > :11:50.this was the job of the Russian military I would like to see this
:11:51. > :11:57.evidence. I know that the United Nations, in particular on our
:11:58. > :12:01.resistance, announced that they will start an investigation and we will
:12:02. > :12:06.be very sorry watching how it goes. I can tell you only one thing and
:12:07. > :12:13.this is the fact known by the United Nations. When the convoy was agreed,
:12:14. > :12:18.the opposition in control of eastern Aleppo told the United Nations that
:12:19. > :12:21.the convoy should not be launched, a cause they said that they had
:12:22. > :12:25.information, that the government would attack it. The United Nations
:12:26. > :12:29.in spite of the serious warning said that it doesn't matter whether
:12:30. > :12:35.anybody plans to attack us or not, we are sending the convoy. And to
:12:36. > :12:39.understand, what might have happened, we have to go back to
:12:40. > :12:44.August the 26th when there was another meeting between John Kerry
:12:45. > :12:48.and myself in Geneva. On that very day, Stefan dimmest is said that the
:12:49. > :12:56.UN had Terry and convoy was ready to leave from Turkey to Aleppo via the
:12:57. > :13:02.castello Road, he said why did we announce it, it will be so historic.
:13:03. > :13:08.On that very day, before the convoy left, the Aleppo opposition said
:13:09. > :13:13.that they would hit this convoy, they would not allow this to get
:13:14. > :13:18.into Aleppo via the castello Road. Then the United Nations basically
:13:19. > :13:21.blinked, they said OK maybe we will talk to them persuade them to change
:13:22. > :13:27.their mind. Let us wait for a couple of days. We waited for a couple of
:13:28. > :13:29.days and then two weeks and then it was mid-September, the opposition
:13:30. > :13:36.control of eastern Aleppo never allowed this convoy in. So now when
:13:37. > :13:39.the 19th of September convoy was about to be launched, the same
:13:40. > :13:43.opposition said that they had information that the government
:13:44. > :13:48.might attack it. Don't you think that this looks fishy? I tell you
:13:49. > :13:53.what looks fishy, is the fact that your aerial surveillance drones were
:13:54. > :13:58.monitoring that convoy, and you had two SU 24 warplanes above it but let
:13:59. > :14:05.us not spend it too long discussing that incident, an investigation is
:14:06. > :14:10.ongoing. Let us have a look at a bigger picture, Samantha for Powell,
:14:11. > :14:16.the UN Ambassador to the UN, recently said, that what Russia is
:14:17. > :14:19.doing "Is not counterterrorism, it is barbarism". How toxic would you
:14:20. > :14:27.say relations between Washington and Moscow are today? I think she is a
:14:28. > :14:30.bit aggressive, even for the representative of the United States.
:14:31. > :14:36.We believe it is absolutely unacceptable to use this language.
:14:37. > :14:40.We have said what we think about this already. I did want to come
:14:41. > :14:47.back to this and I don't want to discuss the manners of our American
:14:48. > :14:52.colleagues. I believe that everyone who is aware of how they work know
:14:53. > :14:56.about those manners. I prefer to concentrate on the facts and not
:14:57. > :15:01.hysterical statements when people lose control of events and of
:15:02. > :15:07.themselves. Do you think that the Americans have lost control both of
:15:08. > :15:14.themselves and of events? Well I think that, if they do not present
:15:15. > :15:23.any evidence to the contrary, they either are driven by Nusra, or they
:15:24. > :15:28.tacitly support this terrorist organisation. And you know, if you
:15:29. > :15:32.take the history, during the Reagan administration, Al-Qaeda was born
:15:33. > :15:36.because the United States was supporting mujahedin movement in
:15:37. > :15:42.Afghanistan. Against the stove the union. During George Bush Junior,
:15:43. > :15:50.Isil was born after they invaded Iraq and in May 2003 they dismantled
:15:51. > :15:56.any structure with the Sunni population, beard army and security
:15:57. > :16:00.and police. -- be it. I'm afraid this particular administration of
:16:01. > :16:11.the latter states might make history, by giving rise to and
:16:12. > :16:17.supporting Nusra. Get me give you quickfire questions and answer. --
:16:18. > :16:22.let me. He's all talk of a meaningful ceasefire in Syria over
:16:23. > :16:30.Ashton Mark is that prospect at an end? It is not over, when we met in
:16:31. > :16:33.New York we said we are ready to implement the document which we
:16:34. > :16:38.agreed in full provided this time, we don't get any pretexts to delay
:16:39. > :16:45.the separation. Let us sit down, let us have the map, and let the
:16:46. > :16:47.American and Russian officers exchange information and to clearly
:16:48. > :16:57.indicate on that map where Nusra are. And then we
:16:58. > :17:01.will start because we don't want to be cheated again and again. In March
:17:02. > :17:05.this year President Putin announced that they would be a pull-back of
:17:06. > :17:10.Russian forces from Syria which would begin in the spring. Here we
:17:11. > :17:14.are at the end of September, one year into your military operations,
:17:15. > :17:19.and far from a pull-back, you are being drawn ever more deeply into
:17:20. > :17:28.the Syria conflict, your strategy hasn't worked, has it? No, I believe
:17:29. > :17:32.that, you are making it a bit wrong. What he did say, that we would be
:17:33. > :17:38.partially withdrawing our air force from there, he made a caveat that if
:17:39. > :17:45.the situation requires, we would always be able to build back the
:17:46. > :17:47.force in Syria. The bottom line is that it looks too many people and
:17:48. > :17:57.this is what the Americans are saying but others too, that you
:17:58. > :18:00.can't actually rain in President Assad and that you in the Foreign
:18:01. > :18:04.Ministry in Moscow are unhappy about some of the things that are
:18:05. > :18:10.happening particularly in Aleppo but actually President Assad is not
:18:11. > :18:17.listening to you? You know, my job is not about being happy or unhappy,
:18:18. > :18:23.I can only give you facts. Starting with the first document in Syria,
:18:24. > :18:27.the Geneva communique of June 2012, we made all necessary efforts to
:18:28. > :18:32.make sure that the government cooperates. They divorced these
:18:33. > :18:36.documents a couple days after it was adopted. The opposition never did,
:18:37. > :18:40.and we proposed to have an endorsement on the Security Council
:18:41. > :18:44.and they refused, and only one year and a couple of months later, the
:18:45. > :18:48.opposition reluctantly said that they are ready to support this
:18:49. > :18:54.document provided that President Assad goes, which was not the
:18:55. > :18:56.precondition contained in that paper. Then each and every time
:18:57. > :19:01.Russia and the United States or international Syria support group
:19:02. > :19:07.but you some decisions, they say they are only going to cooperate if
:19:08. > :19:12.President Assad goes first. The latest arrangements by Ahsan United
:19:13. > :19:15.States were rejected by the so-called high negotiating
:19:16. > :19:19.committee, and its leader, the former Syrian Prime Minister who
:19:20. > :19:26.defected in 2011 I think in the summer, he publicly stated in an
:19:27. > :19:34.interview in a newspaper if I'm not wrong, he cannot end this, they
:19:35. > :19:39.cannot accept the statement that Nusra is a terrorist organisation.
:19:40. > :19:46.They have links with Kylie do, and Nusra must be made respectable
:19:47. > :19:50.member of the Palestinian process. I asked John Kerry if he accepts this
:19:51. > :19:54.and he said no, and I asked why he doesn't say this publicly and I'm
:19:55. > :20:00.still waiting. Would you have told me a great deal about your worries
:20:01. > :20:04.about the Nusra front. President Assad says that he will continue his
:20:05. > :20:10.military operations until key has recovered every inch of Syrian
:20:11. > :20:17.territory, are you going to offer him full military support until he
:20:18. > :20:21.has covered every inch of Syrian territory -- recovered? The
:20:22. > :20:26.cessation of hostilities never, ever provided for ceasing any activities,
:20:27. > :20:33.for Nusra and Isil and this is what we are guided by. You haven't
:20:34. > :20:41.answered my question. The do you believe that Assad can recover every
:20:42. > :20:46.inch, and Willie provide support until he does so? No, we believe
:20:47. > :20:50.that the Russia- America deal must be put into effect, for this the
:20:51. > :20:54.only thing that is necessary is to separate the opposition from Nusra,
:20:55. > :21:00.if it is supported by the United States not on paper but in real
:21:01. > :21:06.life, and then B will insist on immediate cessation of hostilities.
:21:07. > :21:12.Except for Nusra of course. I want to a couple of other issues. On
:21:13. > :21:16.sanctions, because of your response to the downing of MH 17, the
:21:17. > :21:21.prosecutors made it quite clear, that the evidence points to a
:21:22. > :21:24.Russian missile from Russia into eastern Ukraine, shooting down that
:21:25. > :21:28.Malaysian airline, and then the missile torture returning to Russia,
:21:29. > :21:31.because of your response to that it is quite plain that international
:21:32. > :21:36.sanctions on your country will not be lifted any time soon. How is
:21:37. > :21:42.Russia going to continue to live with these sanctions? Well we
:21:43. > :21:50.already explained what we think about this report, of the Dutch
:21:51. > :21:55.whatever it is called, Council, by the way, the investigation group
:21:56. > :22:03.which was created in July 2014, did not invite Malaysia, until the end
:22:04. > :22:07.of that year. It was very strange, and nobody explain to us why this
:22:08. > :22:13.was the case. Another strange thing in addition to what was said by our
:22:14. > :22:18.aviation authorities, and the producer of this rocket launcher,
:22:19. > :22:22.the Security Council adopted a resolution in July 2014, which among
:22:23. > :22:25.other things, requested, regular reports from the Security Council
:22:26. > :22:30.about the cost of this investigation. There was no single
:22:31. > :22:34.report to the security Council and I wonder why? As for the technical
:22:35. > :22:39.details and the evidence that you referred to, the evidence is based
:22:40. > :22:44.on video images, and photo images from social networks. And from the
:22:45. > :22:49.evidence received from unnamed witnesses. And the report itself,
:22:50. > :22:54.and the presenter of the report said that they need to continue the
:22:55. > :22:57.investigation. We submitted huge material to them, and we would be
:22:58. > :23:06.very much hopeful that they will look eventually into this material.
:23:07. > :23:12.You are not contemplating any kind of apology? Any kind of apology for
:23:13. > :23:15.what? For the fact that the evidence points clearly to a Russian-made
:23:16. > :23:24.missile from Russia going back to Russia being used to kill 298 people
:23:25. > :23:28.on board that plane? Well first, even from the point of view of the
:23:29. > :23:31.logic of the investigating committee, the investigation is not
:23:32. > :23:36.over. They said there 100 names but none of them is a suspect or a
:23:37. > :23:42.witness even. So even from this point of view, let us not jump to
:23:43. > :23:47.conclusions but what I can tell you, is that information that we amassed,
:23:48. > :23:57.including the results of the tests, conducted by the producer of this
:23:58. > :24:00.rocket launcher, was given to the investigators and Ukrainian data and
:24:01. > :24:05.American data was never given and made public. Foreign Minister Sergei
:24:06. > :24:10.Lavrov we had to leave you there, thank you very much for joining me
:24:11. > :24:13.on the BBC world News special. Our exclusive interview with the Russian
:24:14. > :24:24.Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, thank you very much for watching.
:24:25. > :24:30.Today the weather has been a little mixed on the weather front, overall
:24:31. > :24:35.not too bad, there has been sunshine around but also some heavy showers
:24:36. > :24:37.lurking on the horizon is, those pictures coming from our weather