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This man is helping save the British economy. Until three months | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
ago he was one of millions of unemployed claiming incapacity | :00:09. | :00:16. | |
benefits. The Government is trying to get these people back to work. | :00:16. | :00:24. | |
There's not a week that goes by without me hitting something. Do | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
you think anyone would consider It's failing thousands of people up | :00:30. | :00:40. | |
:00:40. | :00:51. | ||
and down the country. You're a Who were? The clients. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
There are two and a half million long-term sick and disabled | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
unemployed people in the UK, currently costing taxpayers �13 | :00:56. | :01:05. | |
billion every year. More than a quarter of a million of them of | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
them live in Scotland. The Government says it wants as many as | :01:08. | :01:15. | |
possible who are able to work off Those who can work will look for | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
work and join the Work Programme. Those with a disability must and | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
can no longer be left behind. It is a vital pledge we must make to | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
:01:33. | :01:36. | ||
those who have those disabilities. Two years ago, BBC Scotland | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
investigated the Government's plans to end this so-called "sick-note | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
culture". We scrutinised the private assessment process, which | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
was wrongly deciding many sick and disabled people were fit for work. | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
18 months on from the launch of the Government's most ambitious welfare | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
reforms yet, how successful has the pledge been to get disabled people | :01:50. | :02:00. | |
:02:00. | :02:00. | ||
who are able to work off benefits and into employment? | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
This is Michael Docherty from East Kilbride. Michael has learning | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
difficulties and a personality disorder. He has never managed to | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
hold down a job for very long, and has previously required intensive | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
support in the workplace. When it comes to myself, having a | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
disability, it's a lot harder and I'm a bit slow. It takes a bit | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
longer to do the task in a certain time. I'd probably need a worker | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
from ten o'clock that morning till when I finish at six o'clock at | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
night time so I'm not alone in case something happens. | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
As much as he wants to work, he's had numerous opportunities in the | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
past and even with quite very well- supported care packages in place, | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
it hasn't been successful for him. Despite his difficulties, Michael | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
has been declared fit for work. He is appealing against that decision | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
but, if that fails, he will have no choice but to attempt to return to | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
the workplace. He's not the only one who says the Government's | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
assessment process is pushing them inappropriately towards the working | :03:04. | :03:13. | |
A cemetery on the south side of Edinburgh is where Mark Gould finds | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
his inspiration. His passion is photography. In 2008 he developed | :03:18. | :03:28. | |
:03:28. | :03:28. | ||
serious mental health problems and Depression for the record is not | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
feeling a little bit down or sad or anything. It's feeling nothing. | :03:34. | :03:42. | |
It's, you know, inside, inside there's You may as well be dead. | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
Mark's been receiving incapacity benefits for the past four years | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
and doesn't feel he's currently employable, struggling with anxiety | :03:47. | :03:57. | |
:03:57. | :03:58. | ||
and his temper. How bad is it? | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
Right, there's not a week that goes by without me hitting something. Do | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
you think anyone should be stuck with that as an employee? Do you | :04:08. | :04:18. | |
:04:18. | :04:18. | ||
think anyone in their right mind When I'm frustrated, I smash things | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
Can this not be controlled? You've managed to control this in a very | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
stressful environment of doing an interview. (BEEP) off. Can this be | :04:29. | :04:38. | |
controlled? (BEEP) off. It can to some extent. And it, I knew today | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
was going to be a bit like this, so I did a certain amount of | :04:42. | :04:51. | |
preparation for being here. How do you prepare? How do you try and | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
control it? How are you controlling it now? Through breathing | :04:54. | :05:04. | |
:05:04. | :05:11. | ||
techniques. But what's going I'm not going to say anything about | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
Mark's girlfriend Lauren, who has her own struggles with mental | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
health, also thinks Mark is currently unemployable. Both worry | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
about becoming one of those put on the Government's new scheme. | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
The threat of the Work Programme is having a really negative effect on | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
both our lives. Neither of us are in any fit state to cope with the | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
sort of things that involves. I think Mark would end up on assault | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
charges very quickly. Mark's difficulties are very | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
different from Michael's. But like Michael, he feels he's been wrongly | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
assessed, and it's a case of can't work rather than won't work. The | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
Department for Work and Pensions said it was unable to comment on | :06:02. | :06:12. | |
:06:12. | :06:33. | ||
individual cases but in a statement But what's happening to those | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
disabled people who can work and want to work? 68,000 have been | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
placed into the Work Programme, the Government's �5 billion answer to | :06:40. | :06:47. | |
tackling unemployment. And here's how it's supposed to work. There | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
are 18 main work providers. These are largely private companies. Each | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
is contracted to deliver the Work Programme for all long-term | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
unemployed, not just those with disabilities. It's based on | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
financial reward. For every person placed with them, that main | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
provider receives a referral payment of up to �400. For those on | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
incapacity benefits, called "hard- to-place" clients, the figure is | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
�600. If the main provider manages to get a client into employment for | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
more than six months, it receives a second payment, which is �1,200. | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
For a "hard-to-place" client it could be as much as �3,500. After | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
two years, if a client is still in paid employment, the main provider | :07:33. | :07:41. | |
gets a third payout, this time of up to �5,000. For a "hard-to-place" | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
client, it's �9,600. It's called payment by results. The | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
hope of the incentive means providers would work harder to | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
reduce unemployment and put equal effort into those in the hard-to- | :07:54. | :08:04. | |
:08:04. | :08:05. | ||
place category. And for some, it's This is Andrew Collins. After seven | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
years of unemployment because of depression, in August 2011, he was | :08:08. | :08:18. | |
put on the Work Programme. He was sent on confidence-building courses, | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
showed where to look for work, and he was given a new, smarter | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
appearance. These sound very small things to | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
some people, new shoes, haircut, shave, but that was a big deal for | :08:26. | :08:34. | |
you? In some ways, yes. Much as it's small in material things, it's | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
a very good symbol of the sort of support that they were willing to | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
offer and how they'd go out of their way and do stuff to make sure | :08:41. | :08:51. | |
And you got the job. Yeah. Andrew now works part-time in a | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
care home. He's an example of what the Work Programme was designed to | :08:56. | :09:03. | |
achieve. Yet figures revealed in November, just 13 months into the | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
initiative, are suggestive of Andrew being the exception rather | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
New figures have been released showing that the Government | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
flagship Work Programme has failed to meet a key target. | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
Not one of the private companies delivering the Work Programme met | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
their targets for getting any of the groups into work. Out of 68,000 | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
referrals of people from the hard- to-place group, providers only | :09:26. | :09:36. | |
:09:36. | :09:40. | ||
found jobs lasting three months or Tony Wilson has had a history of | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
mental illness. At 34, he's been unemployed and receiving disability | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
benefits for almost nine years. I have been diagnosed with | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
depression, anxiety disorder and borderline personality disorder. | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
When I'm anxious, I can't go out. And if I have to go out, I have to | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
be medicated. Tony was placed with Triage, a | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
large Scottish company which provides support and training for | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
the unemployed. Its website states it has one of the highest | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
employment success rates in the country. Tony lives in | :10:23. | :10:30. | |
Middlesbrough, where Triage also delivers the Work Programme. Yet | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
his experience once placed on the programme hasn't matched up to what | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
Triage promises. He's only seen his adviser sporadically. Some of the | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
courses he was told he'd be sent on have failed to materialise. Triage | :10:41. | :10:50. | |
says he has missed appointments, which Tony disputes. | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
What have they done to get you job- ready? Nothing. Not at all? | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
Absolutely nothing. This isn't because you're rejecting it and | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
saying no, I mean they actually haven't actively done anything? | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
They haven't done a single thing to help me in any way. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
Under the payment by results model, Tony is worth up to �6,500 to a | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
provider. To try and understand why he wasn't getting the support he | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
needs, we found someone who had been paid to implement Triage | :11:18. | :11:28. | |
policy and was prepared to talk to me. Linda Smith worked as an | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
employment advisor with Triage in Aberdeen, and often dealt with | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
clients from the hard-to-place group. | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
These people were probably more difficult to place in employment | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
for us as employment workers, but for them, these people were bigger | :11:41. | :11:50. | |
money. These people were the bucks, the ker-ching, that's what we were | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
told. These people were money- makers. Oh, yeah, they were the | :11:53. | :12:03. | |
:12:03. | :12:08. | ||
bucks. These people were money- makers. | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
After seven months on the Work Programme, nothing had changed for | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
Tony and his contact with Triage was becoming increasingly sporadic. | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
Then, last month, he says his adviser left a message on his phone | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
on the day of his appointment. She said, hello Tony, just checking | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
how you're doing. We'll see you next year. That was it, that was | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
all it said? Yeah, that's what she said. She didn't say come in, or | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
don't come in, she didn't say you don't need to come in any more. She | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
didn't actually mention the appointment. Was this an unusual | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
phone call? Had you had anything like this before? No. No. It was | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
out of the blue, it was bizarre. But for Linda, who worked at Triage, | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
this type of phone call comes as no surprise. | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
If some of the clients that you met were too difficult to put into | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
employment, what would happen? would be put on telephone | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
interviews, so they didn't even have to come into the centre. They | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
would be double-booked, triple booked sometimes in a diary. Just | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
to make sure that there was this contact made, so they could tick a | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
box to say, yeah, they're still on the Work Programme. But efforts to | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
gain them employment stopped? Yeah, they would call it parking. | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
That was the word that was used, you'll park them. Management would | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
say that? It was them that told us to do it. It was their idea. You | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
don't spend as much time with these people, because you are never going | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
to get the money out of them. you think you were parked? Yes. I | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
can't get a job, so they won't get their big reward for getting me a | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
job. I spoke with other former Triage | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
employees who told me similar stories to Linda. Triage told us it | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
couldn't comment directly on Tony's case due to Data Protection. | :13:51. | :14:01. | |
:14:01. | :14:25. | ||
However, in a statement it said The experience of those we've | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
spoken to suggest the financial model is working against those the | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
scheme was set up to help the most those in the hard-to-place group. | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
We asked a financial analyst to examine the Work Programme and the | :14:37. | :14:44. | |
payment by results model upon which it is built. From the second I walk | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
into the door as a participant of the programme, in the eyes of the | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
provider, I have a price tag? Effectively. You have a value. You | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
have a value, and as a referral, there's That's your income. Once | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
you've been a referral, how much more money am I going to earn out | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
of you? So which ones are you going to deal with first? Those that are | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
easiest to get into work. So I can cherry-pick quite quickly. So, from | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
what you're saying, it's cherry- pick the good and park the not-so- | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
good. Absolutely. Order, order. Can I welcome you to | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
this afternoon's evidence session. Labour MP Dame Anne Begg is the | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
chair of a Parliamentary select committee assessing the | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
effectiveness of the Work Programme. Was she aware that providers were | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
cherry-picking? They won't help someone if they are expecting to | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
get, say, �5,000 from the Government for getting them into | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
work, but if they spend �6,000 on that individual getting them into | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
sustained work then that is loss- making for the company. So it is | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
clear that what has been happening, they have been selecting the | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
easiest ones out of those groups, and worked with them and not | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
working with those they have assessed as being too far from the | :15:53. | :16:03. | |
:16:03. | :16:17. | ||
labour market and too difficult to The whole point of paying by | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
results was to stop providers from this kind of cherry-picking, | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
because the financial incentives would be so attractive that the | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
hard-to-place wouldn't be ignored? And, when bidding for these | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
lucrative contracts, the providers promised to do everything they | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
could to help those who needed it Jemma Brown lives in Southampton | :16:33. | :16:41. | |
and is registered blind. She's been unemployed for four years. She was | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
placed on the Work Programme in March last year. | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
I was really hopeful. I think that's how I'd described it. I was | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
hopeful that it was going to make a difference and that things would | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
change and I'd at least get some interviews. | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
Jemma was placed with employment agency A4e, the second-biggest | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
contractor to the Work Programme. It claims to have saved the tax- | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
payer �24 million a year by getting long-term unemployed into work. | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
That's on their website. Now, I've got a copy of their bid to deliver | :17:16. | :17:24. | |
the Work Programme in the south east. In it they say they will | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
provide an accessible service for all clients, tailor the programme | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
to the needs of the individual, and each client will be seen monthly by | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
a work adviser. Not so, according to Jemma Brown. I can kind of go, | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
like, two or three months without seeing him. Two or three months? | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
Before then I've kind of waited that couple of months and then | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
actually had my appointment cancelled the day before and had to | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
wait another month or something. How many jobs has A4e found you or | :17:50. | :18:00. | |
:18:00. | :18:02. | ||
Jemma is not an isolated case. Mark Cooper lives in Edinburgh. He's a | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
politics graduate and a former Labour Party candidate. Mark has | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
cerebral palsy, but unlike Jemma he's not in the hard-to-place group. | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
He volunteered to join the Work Programme and has been with A4e for | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
a year. In that time he's applied for over a hundred jobs, most if | :18:20. | :18:28. | |
which he's found himself. He now has serious doubts as to whether | :18:28. | :18:36. | |
A4e can help him get a job. What's the problem, then? Why are you not | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
getting the job through A4e? Because they have got too many, too | :18:40. | :18:50. | |
:18:50. | :18:53. | ||
many people to help. Their staff do not have the time that they or I | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
would like to help me. Would you say you're not getting that | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
intensive job support? No. No, I'm But what about A4e's promise to | :18:59. | :19:07. | |
provide an accessible service for all clients? They can't do things | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
in large print. I can't use their computers. Everywhere I've turned | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
in the Work Programme there's been a barrier in the way for me | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
accessing it. Did you get the feeling almost like you were the | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
first disabled person they'd come across? It really was like they had | :19:22. | :19:32. | |
:19:32. | :20:04. | ||
no clue about disability whatsoever. The system was set up in such a way | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
that providers weren't expected to have the expertise in every single | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
disability field. But this was where charities and support | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
organisations with specialist skills would come into their own. | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
When the main providers competed for the multi-million pound Work | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
Programme contracts, they included in their bids lists of charities | :20:22. | :20:30. | |
and organisations they said they would be using to help clients. | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
Around 1,000 of these support groups were signed up. They | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
anticipated an exciting time. They would be paid by the main provider | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
every time their support services were used. One of them is a group | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
offering support to single parents, some of whom have mental health | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
problems. It agreed to provide a helpline service for clients on the | :20:50. | :21:00. | |
:21:00. | :21:01. | ||
work programme. To date, it's only had three phone calls. | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
We had to dedicate substantial staff time to actually negotiating | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
with and preparing the information for the bids that we submitted to | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
the Work Programme, and yet this resource isn't being used. And I | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
think that's what I find so, so disappointing about the whole thing. | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
Was One Parent Family Scotland's experience unusual? We conducted a | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
survey of 348 voluntary organisations listed on the DWP | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
website as being subcontractors to the Work Programme in July last | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
year. Surprisingly, 40% of the 184 who responded said they weren't | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
part of the Work Programme, therefore shouldn't even be on the | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
list. Then there was the number of referrals. In Scotland, 75% of | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
organisations correctly listed as being subcontractors said they had | :21:43. | :21:51. | |
received fewer referrals than expected. And across the UK, 41% | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
hadn't received any at all. Why do you think organisations like | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
yourselves were included in the first place if there isn't this | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
desire to actually engage? I think it looked good. I think it was | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
window-dressing. I think it helped people win contracts if they showed | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
they were engaging with local organisations and charities who had | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
decades of experience working with the groups the Work Programme was | :22:15. | :22:22. | |
targeting. These concerns were echoed by some | :22:22. | :22:32. | |
:22:32. | :22:47. | ||
of the other Scottish organisations From the evidence we have gathered, | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
it seems that finance is driving this system. Some providers are | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
going for the quick return, focusing on those most likely to | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
get a job. And others are failing to refer clients to much-needed | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
support because they have to pay for that support, thereby cutting | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
their profit. Is this pursuit of financial reward | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
leading to a culture of indifference to those who need help | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
the most? Never ever ask how they are. When you go out to greet them, | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
to bring them in to their appointment, their meeting time, | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
never ask how they are. Why not? Because you might, you'll spend too | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
much time then, because they would want to tell you all about what was | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
wrong with them. Their words, not mine, I have to say. Never, ever | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
ask anybody with a disability benefit how they are. | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
It was difficult to accept what Linda Smith was about to tell me. | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
According to her, this was how some staff talked about clients. They | :23:51. | :24:01. | |
:24:01. | :24:02. | ||
were all "LTBs". Lying, thieving bustards. Who were? The clients. | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
That's how they're referred to as clients. You're a lying, thieving | :24:05. | :24:12. | |
bustard. These were clients that you had been employed to help? | :24:12. | :24:20. | |
help and support back into employment. Yeah. That's offensive. | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
It's unprofessional. It's so many words I could say about that. It's | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
just wrong. We've spoken to a number of former | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
Triage employees who have confirmed they, too, had heard this term | :24:32. | :24:42. | |
:24:42. | :24:54. | ||
being used. In a statement, Triage "This is not a phraseology used or | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
accepted by Triage. We believe this relates to a single incident, | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
apparently almost a year ago." In relation to not asking how clients | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
are, Triage told us: "This is a misinterpretation of a constructive | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
approach to positively working with Health Benefit clients. We have | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
found more effective ways of greeting a client without using | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
words that may refocus them on their health concerns." We asked | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
Dame Anne Begg, who is chairing the inquiry into the Work Programme, to | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
look at some of our evidence. At Tony, who feels he has been parked | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
by the system. Jemma, who says her disability isn't being catered for. | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
And former Triage employee Linda Smith. | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
What they have done to get you job- ready? Nothing. Not at all. | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
Absolutely nothing. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
be able to pick himself up and put himself back into the workforce. | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
Everywhere I have turned in the Work Programme there has been a | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
barrier to me accessing it. They shouldn't be working with people | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
with disabilities, and they shouldn't be advocating on their | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
behalf if they can't do it themselves. This is A4e we're | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
talking about. That's a company that should know better. Lying, | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
thieving bustards. Who were? clients. That is shocking, and I | :25:56. | :26:04. | |
hope this is a rare example of that. If that is widespread, then that is | :26:04. | :26:14. | |
terrible. Will you be feeding our evidence into your ongoing inquiry? | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
I think what you have shown here in your programme will certainly form | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
part of the evidence that we will use when we reach our conclusions | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
and make recommendations to Government as to what should happen | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
to the Work Programme as it develops. | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
Those recommendations will come here, to the Department for Work | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
and Pensions. I wanted to put all the evidence we had gathered to the | :26:33. | :26:40. | |
man in charge. Do you think that cherry-picking is | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
taking place? I think that we've set some very clear incentives for | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
the WP providers. They know they're only going to make money if they | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
get these people into work. They know they're only going to make | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
money if they provide the right support. With respect, you haven't | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
answered my question. Do you think that cherry-picking is taking | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
place? If people have got evidence of cherry-picking, if people are | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
concerned about that, there is a complaints mechanism, there is an | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
independent case examiner who can respond to those details. But the | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
incentives are in place to ensure that people get the right support. | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
One person who worked within the industry, she told us that clients | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
were referred to by staff as LTBs, lying, thieving bustards. Well, | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
that sort of language is inappropriate and is wrong, and I | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
would want to make sure that where that language is used, that | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
appropriate disciplinary action is taken against the employees with | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
the provider. Looking at the supply chain, we carried out a survey, and | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
what we discovered was that the expertise and the knowledge of many | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
outside support organisations weren't being used. They feel | :27:37. | :27:46. | |
they've been used as bid candy to window-dress. I think that prime | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
contractors have identified people who they believe could help could | :27:49. | :27:56. | |
deliver an effective service. They've got to decide whether that | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
works in the long term. They've got to decide whether those | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
organisations provide the right service. I think there'd be some | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
organisations that haven't had the volume of referrals that they | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
expected. I've a got relentless focus on ensuring that the Work | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
Programme delivers to the people who take part in it. I want to see | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
this programme to get more people into work. | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
Few will disagree that supporting long-term sick and disabled | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
unemployed back into work is a good thing. But is the Work Programme | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
the best way of achieving these results? The Select Committee will | :28:22. | :28:32. | |
report its findings to Government in April. Will the financial model, | :28:32. | :28:35. |