0:00:10 > 0:00:12Scotland jails more women
0:00:12 > 0:00:15than almost anywhere else in northern Europe.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18I've been in and out of prison for about 33 years now.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Almost two-thirds of female admissions
0:00:20 > 0:00:23to Scottish prisons are for remand.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Before I got to jail there I had moved, got myself a job,
0:00:27 > 0:00:29and a judge still remanded me.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32So, now he's put my life right back to square one.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37The offenders themselves say prison doesn't work.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Prison doesn't do nothing for me.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41As far as I'm concerned, it was like a holiday camp.
0:00:41 > 0:00:45Tonight, one of Britain's top human rights lawyers investigates
0:00:45 > 0:00:47whether it's time to stop jailing so many women.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08There are almost 3,000 female admissions
0:01:08 > 0:01:10to Scottish prisons every year.
0:01:11 > 0:01:16For many women, prison is a revolving door of short sentences
0:01:16 > 0:01:17and periods on remand.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22But great reform is afoot.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Women's prisons in Scotland are about to change from this...
0:01:26 > 0:01:29..to something a bit more like this.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33There's such a feeling in Scotland that things have to change.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37There is a progressive tide sweeping Scotland in relation to
0:01:37 > 0:01:41people in prison, but especially to women in prison.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43We will make this work, because we have to.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47Under the new plans, Scotland's only women's prison will
0:01:47 > 0:01:51be pulled down, to be replaced by a much smaller one.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54But the radical part of the plan is that 100 women will be
0:01:54 > 0:01:58moved from prison to communities across Scotland.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01What we hope is that after a short period of assessment,
0:02:01 > 0:02:04women will be out and about in the community during the day,
0:02:04 > 0:02:05they will be out accessing a GP,
0:02:05 > 0:02:10will be out at worker volunteering opportunities or going to education.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15The women will be housed in five
0:02:15 > 0:02:19small prisons which are being called community-based custodial units.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22We're looking for sites just now.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25We are determined that these community units will be
0:02:25 > 0:02:27in the kind of areas that women come from.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31They won't look like prisons, they will look like
0:02:31 > 0:02:33the buildings that are around them,
0:02:33 > 0:02:36so there won't be any barbed wire or bars on the windows.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40A lock on the outside door, absolutely,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44but within the units, women will live in small, flatted houses.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48There will be four or five women to a house,
0:02:48 > 0:02:51they will be sharing living and dining and cooking facilities,
0:02:51 > 0:02:53and they'll all have the keys to their own doors.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56The new plans give a capacity of 180,
0:02:56 > 0:03:00less than half what's available at Cornton Vale.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04So will this reform cut Scotland's ever-rising prison population?
0:03:11 > 0:03:15Lady Helena Kennedy QC has been an advocate for prison reform
0:03:15 > 0:03:17since her earliest days at the Bar.
0:03:17 > 0:03:18She wrote a book on the
0:03:18 > 0:03:22unequal treatment of women in the justice system
0:03:22 > 0:03:26which is still used in the training of young lawyers today.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30Nowadays she's a prominent human rights lawyer
0:03:30 > 0:03:34and a high-profile Labour peer in the House of Lords.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36And I just wanted to ask the minister
0:03:36 > 0:03:39if there's an acceptance in Government that the costs,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42as you've described, are huge, and yet over the last few years,
0:03:42 > 0:03:46we've seen a reduction in the additional services of up to 80%.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53She's visited prisons in the UK and across the world,
0:03:53 > 0:03:56but hasn't yet come across a reform plan like Scotland's
0:03:56 > 0:03:59and is curious about whether it will work.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04I want to look at whether the changes to the actual
0:04:04 > 0:04:07fabric of how prisons are,
0:04:07 > 0:04:09making them, sort of, more...
0:04:09 > 0:04:13Smaller, more intimate, where good work can be done with women.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17Whether that is going to be the answer, or whether we really
0:04:17 > 0:04:21should just be absolutely taking a scythe to the numbers of women
0:04:21 > 0:04:23that we're sending to prison, which I've always believed.
0:04:26 > 0:04:31On any given day there are 400 or so women in prison in Scotland.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33They live in units within male prisons
0:04:33 > 0:04:36at Edinburgh, Grampian and Greenock,
0:04:38 > 0:04:43And more than half live here, at Cornton Vale near Stirling.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45Helena Kennedy has come to visit the prison.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49People are usually locked up for about 9 o'clock at night,
0:04:49 > 0:04:51a bit earlier at the weekends.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53We try to keep people out as much as we can.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57It's a prison which used to be notorious
0:04:57 > 0:04:59for suicide and self-harm.
0:05:03 > 0:05:07The majority of women here have horrendous backgrounds
0:05:07 > 0:05:12of trauma, chaotic lives, terrible, dreadful, things happening to them
0:05:12 > 0:05:16that most people can't even begin to imagine, and things that you would
0:05:16 > 0:05:20hardly believe or credit would go on in modern Scotland, but they do.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22So many of our women are products of their backgrounds.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27The governor's arranged for Helena Kennedy to meet
0:05:27 > 0:05:30a group of women, including one on remand
0:05:30 > 0:05:34and others serving time for shoplifting, drugs and fire-raising.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37One of the things that I think is generally understood now is
0:05:37 > 0:05:40the extent to which women who end up prison
0:05:40 > 0:05:43have often got many other kinds of problems.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46I mean, have any of you got a drug problem?
0:05:46 > 0:05:49Have any of you come in here who've been drug users before coming in?
0:05:49 > 0:05:51- MURMURING - Yeah.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53I first tried drugs in here.
0:05:53 > 0:05:54Did you?
0:05:54 > 0:05:57Aye. I didn't take drugs until I came here.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01Not even a line of coke, not even a bit of drink, nothing.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04I've tried drugs once. I've tried...
0:06:07 > 0:06:08What is it...?
0:06:08 > 0:06:09Heroin, in here.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11One of the lassies gave me it,
0:06:11 > 0:06:13but that was, like, a couple of year ago.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21Yvonne, you were in care.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23It was abuse after abuse after abuse.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27In every social setting that I've had, it's been abusive.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29- And you've been in and out of here ever since.- Yeah.
0:06:29 > 0:06:34I started self-harming after my sexual assault when I was younger.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36It's my way of coping after the drink and that.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38Were any of the rest of you
0:06:38 > 0:06:41sexually abused as children or when you were young?
0:06:41 > 0:06:43You were, yeah.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47And, um, what about mental health problems?
0:06:47 > 0:06:49- ALL:- Yeah.
0:06:54 > 0:06:55Have any of you got children?
0:06:55 > 0:06:56- SOME:- Yes.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58How many of you have got children?
0:06:58 > 0:06:59- Me.- Me.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02- Hard being away from your kids, eh? - It's really hard.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16Female offenders are different to male offenders, not only
0:07:16 > 0:07:18because they have higher rates of drug abuse,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20histories of sex abuse and self-harm,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23but because so many of them are mothers.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34This 17-year-old has been visiting her mother, a heroin addict,
0:07:34 > 0:07:36in prison since she was a little girl.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39It must've been quite hard at school. Did people know?
0:07:39 > 0:07:42They were talking about it, like, the whispering.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46It made me feel more self-conscious in myself, and I think that's why...
0:07:46 > 0:07:50I was more... I'm more, now, paranoid about my sister.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52Because, obviously she's getting to that,
0:07:52 > 0:07:54like, that's her at high school now and, obviously,
0:07:54 > 0:07:56people are going to be speaking about it.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59So I know what's she's feeling. She knows I know how it feels.
0:08:00 > 0:08:01And what about your father?
0:08:03 > 0:08:04WRY LAUGHTER
0:08:04 > 0:08:07I don't really, I don't really hear from him at all.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09Think I've met him twice.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12- You've only met him twice. - Only about twice.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15It's just, it's the unfairness of it,
0:08:15 > 0:08:17- because you've never done anything wrong...- No.
0:08:17 > 0:08:18..and you pay the price.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26The children of female prisoners will be able to stay over at
0:08:26 > 0:08:29the new secure units being planned by the Scottish Prison Service.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36You know, meeting the women is... These are women that are
0:08:36 > 0:08:39so familiar to me, because I've spent my life
0:08:39 > 0:08:41being connected to women like this.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43Every single one of those women has a back-story,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46and if we had spent time hearing it,
0:08:46 > 0:08:51we would have seen that they really had very little chances and that
0:08:51 > 0:08:53very little real work has been done
0:08:53 > 0:08:55to help them get their lives in order.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57Prison isn't the answer to that.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08- Sandra, hello, how are you? - Yes, I'm very well, thank you.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10Great, lovely.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13There are alternatives to prison in the community.
0:09:13 > 0:09:14This is one of them.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18Over the last decade, more than 800 women have come through here,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20most sent by the courts.
0:09:21 > 0:09:25For many, agreeing to come to 218 spared them prison.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27And it's had a great deal of success,
0:09:27 > 0:09:30one the Prison Service is hoping to emulate.
0:09:31 > 0:09:36Welcome, everybody in the group today, and as part of the groups
0:09:36 > 0:09:40within 218, we are focusing on victims and consequences.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46Helena Kennedy sits in on one of 218's group sessions.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Here at 218, we're here to address the root cause of offending,
0:09:50 > 0:09:53and a lot of the time, women will come in
0:09:53 > 0:09:57and there is addiction issues. Would that be fair to say?
0:09:57 > 0:10:02For myself, I'd never got the jail unless I was...had a substance.
0:10:02 > 0:10:03That's the same as me.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05A lot of the time when you're in the criminal justice,
0:10:05 > 0:10:07it's hard to get out it.
0:10:07 > 0:10:12So, would you say that the benefits of working on your offending
0:10:12 > 0:10:15do actually help you from reoffending?
0:10:15 > 0:10:18Learning some more extra tools to help me outside,
0:10:18 > 0:10:20it's changed my life.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23Women here have dozens of recent charges against them
0:10:23 > 0:10:26but they are encouraged to address the reasons
0:10:26 > 0:10:30behind their offending and make more positive plans for the future.
0:10:30 > 0:10:35Lindsay was a persistent shoplifter, using it to feed a drug habit.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38I've been in and out of prison for about 33 years now.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42I'd always been given sentence upon sentence.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46I'd heard about 218 in the prison cells, but it's the first time...
0:10:49 > 0:10:53..I'd ever been off drugs, erm...
0:10:53 > 0:10:57ever really came back to look at why I offended.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00When I was in prison the last time it was actually the staff
0:11:00 > 0:11:03that pushed for me to come into residential, because I think
0:11:03 > 0:11:05they knew, and I knew as well, that that's what I needed.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08- Something more intensive?- Yeah, yeah. Something more intensive.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11To be kind of grounded more,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14so I could deal with my mental health and understand how
0:11:14 > 0:11:17I felt how it triggered me.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20The 218 service is the only residential
0:11:20 > 0:11:25project of its kind in Scotland and it has a waiting list.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28It has 12 beds and a day service for 50.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32The manager shows Helena Kennedy round.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34It's like putting a bit mirror in front of people
0:11:34 > 0:11:37and saying, "Look at yourself." You know, it's no easy.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40You know, to look at some of the stuff that you've done.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42And for it somehow not all to be about them,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45but also about what's happened to other people as a result.
0:11:45 > 0:11:46Absolutely.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50And I think that's what our group work does, it really forces
0:11:50 > 0:11:55the women to look at how their behaviour's impacted on others.
0:11:56 > 0:12:01The secure units run by the Prison Service could look a bit like 218.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04They've been asking about how the service works.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07We've had lots of visitors from the Prison Service coming here.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12The architects, the designers, even asking us about our security.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14We don't have bars on our windows,
0:12:14 > 0:12:18we don't have keys, we don't have any locked doors behind us.
0:12:21 > 0:12:26Going to 218, you can really see how just having people taking
0:12:26 > 0:12:29an interest in you, helping people to kind of just feel
0:12:29 > 0:12:33good about themselves is a way of helping them address
0:12:33 > 0:12:36so many of the problems that, you know, surround them.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45It turns out Scotland's new women-centred approach may not
0:12:45 > 0:12:47be as ground-breaking as first thought.
0:12:49 > 0:12:5330 years ago, Canada's female prison system was in crisis
0:12:53 > 0:12:57with high rates of violence, self-harm and suicide.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01A federal task-force came up with a radical plan.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07Five low-security prisons were built in communities across Canada.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12The units were to be centred around therapy and rehabilitation, to
0:13:12 > 0:13:17help women rebuild family links and offer work outside the prison gates.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24One of them is here.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30This prison houses 200 women in what the Canadians call
0:13:30 > 0:13:31cottage-style units.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37These are what we call the living units and this is for...
0:13:37 > 0:13:42in the main compound, for minimum and medium-security women.
0:13:43 > 0:13:47The women live in houses of up to 12 with a focus on self-care,
0:13:47 > 0:13:49including cooking together.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52The women just live together just like you would
0:13:52 > 0:13:55with a group of ten other people.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58There are no prison officers in the locked living units
0:13:58 > 0:14:01but prison guards do rounds every two hours.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04There's times during the day, many times during the day,
0:14:04 > 0:14:07when they have free access to be out of their homes
0:14:07 > 0:14:10and you'll see them walking the track and
0:14:10 > 0:14:14playing sports and then there's obviously times as well
0:14:14 > 0:14:16when they have to be in their homes for...
0:14:16 > 0:14:18When there's house checks and when they have to be...
0:14:18 > 0:14:19Quiet time.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25The first women to move into the new units were given far more freedom
0:14:25 > 0:14:30than in the old Prison For Women and encouraged to look after themselves.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Prison For Women, you were told when to get up,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36when you were eating breakfast, when you were eating lunch,
0:14:36 > 0:14:38when you were going to work.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42With Grand Valley, when you got there, in the units there's
0:14:42 > 0:14:48washer-dryers, kitchens, bathrooms, so you are responsible to get
0:14:48 > 0:14:52yourself up, you're responsible to do your own laundry.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55So the more you continue this,
0:14:55 > 0:14:59the better chances of reintegrating into the community.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03You should only use prison as a last resort.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06But the new-style prisons have attracted criticism from prison
0:15:06 > 0:15:11reformers who complain about human rights abuses and say the reality
0:15:11 > 0:15:14of the community-based prison is very far from the original idea.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Why, if this is a community-based prison, is everybody locked up?
0:15:19 > 0:15:23Why would you need that with a group that was supposed to be
0:15:23 > 0:15:25integrating into the community and
0:15:25 > 0:15:27the majority of whom are low-security?
0:15:34 > 0:15:37The units were designed to be low-security,
0:15:37 > 0:15:40but within a few years, the Correctional Service had
0:15:40 > 0:15:43added maximum-security units to every prison.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Because it's a multi-level prison,
0:15:45 > 0:15:49women are actually housed in more secure settings in this
0:15:49 > 0:15:52prison that they would be if they were in a comparable prison for men.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56Just like in Scotland, it was envisioned that
0:15:56 > 0:15:58workers would be assisting women
0:15:58 > 0:16:01in all kinds of therapeutic ways. Not doing strip-searches,
0:16:01 > 0:16:03not doing all kinds of massive security.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05The idea was that the majority of the women would be employed
0:16:05 > 0:16:08outside of the prison, unless, because of their sentence,
0:16:08 > 0:16:11they were ineligible to go out.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13When I was there, there were all kinds of programmes,
0:16:13 > 0:16:16I ended up getting my Grade-12 diploma.
0:16:16 > 0:16:22When I left Grand Valley, I left with 67 diplomas and certificates.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24Erm, all those programmes are gone.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29Three times as many women are sent
0:16:29 > 0:16:31to federal prisons than in 1989.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Reformers say one reason for the rise in the female prison
0:16:36 > 0:16:40population was that sentences became longer
0:16:40 > 0:16:43and prison became a more attractive option for the courts.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46We see judges and lawyers actually saying,
0:16:46 > 0:16:47"Let's give, you know, send women there,"
0:16:47 > 0:16:50because there's a presumption there are more programmes.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53And, in actual fact, there are fewer vocational opportunities than
0:16:53 > 0:16:55existed at the Prison for Women.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58The massive overcrowding is leading to fewer resources.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01Promoters of this new scheme in Scotland say that
0:17:01 > 0:17:04where it's different from Canada is that these
0:17:04 > 0:17:06units, these new prison units,
0:17:06 > 0:17:10- are going to be very small, 20 women apiece.- Mm-hm.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13I would be surprised if, already,
0:17:13 > 0:17:17you aren't being encouraged to expand the numbers of those units.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21In some regions there were as few as 10 to 13 women and now
0:17:21 > 0:17:25in one of the regions, the Atlantic region where there were 13
0:17:25 > 0:17:30women when the new prison was opening, it now houses 88.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33When we were embarking on this initiative in Canada,
0:17:33 > 0:17:34it was cast as the, really,
0:17:34 > 0:17:38one of the best reform initiatives internationally.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42Now, 26 years on, it's been, I would have to say,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45not quite a dismal failure, but pretty darn close.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50I think it's interesting that Canada
0:17:50 > 0:17:52has gone down the same sort of road as us.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54Judges thought they were doing a favour to a woman
0:17:54 > 0:17:57to send to her to one of these new facilities.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00And, in fact, then, you get them overcrowded,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03a doubling-up of the numbers almost.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06And then, what's supposed to be on offer in those places which
0:18:06 > 0:18:10are like therapeutic communities end up being much less therapeutic
0:18:10 > 0:18:12than they were ever intended to be
0:18:12 > 0:18:15so the outcomes become less good.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18The number of women sent to
0:18:18 > 0:18:19prison in Scotland
0:18:19 > 0:18:22has seen a similar rise to Canada.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27Prison reformers are sceptical the new prison strategy will impact
0:18:27 > 0:18:31on the record number of women arriving in Scottish prisons.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33If you expand capacity without shrinking
0:18:33 > 0:18:37the capacity of the old estate, what you might find is a swelling.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40And there is academic evidence to support the fact that...
0:18:40 > 0:18:42The kind of, "If you build it, they will come".
0:18:42 > 0:18:46I think those numbers are hugely optimistic.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48Not because what we're about to do
0:18:48 > 0:18:51in terms of the women's strategy won't be successful,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54actually, we're not in control of the numbers.
0:18:54 > 0:18:55We don't sentence people to prison.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57We just deal with who the courts send to us.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00It's not going to require a change just inside the prison.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02It's going to require a change in terms of our courts
0:19:02 > 0:19:04and sentencing policy.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08The big difference between male and female offenders is that women
0:19:08 > 0:19:11commit more crimes of dishonesty and
0:19:11 > 0:19:14fewer crimes of violence than men.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18Women are also more likely than men to be remanded in custody -
0:19:18 > 0:19:19that's kept in prison
0:19:19 > 0:19:23although they haven't been sentenced or their cases tried.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26Almost two thirds of female admissions
0:19:26 > 0:19:28to Scottish prisons are for remand.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30There's a huge churn of women who are going in
0:19:30 > 0:19:33and out of prison on remand, and the vast majority of those women
0:19:33 > 0:19:35never end up with a custodial sentence.
0:19:36 > 0:19:40Before I got the jail there, I had moved, got myself a job.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42I had a job that was...
0:19:42 > 0:19:45It was a responsible job.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47I was banking money and stuff like that,
0:19:47 > 0:19:49and a judge still remanded me.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51So, now, he's put my life right back to square one.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54It seems to me there's a large percentage of the women
0:19:54 > 0:19:56in here on remand,
0:19:56 > 0:20:02and then end up never being sentenced to a prison sentence.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04Aye, um, that's happened to me
0:20:04 > 0:20:06the past couple of times I've been in.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09I've been charged with offences
0:20:09 > 0:20:12and then lay nine months on remand and got out.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16The Scottish Prison Service doesn't decide how many women
0:20:16 > 0:20:20are sent to prison, the Judiciary does.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23No sitting sheriff was allowed to take part in this programme
0:20:23 > 0:20:25because of "judicial independence".
0:20:27 > 0:20:31But this retired sheriff, who has decades of experience
0:20:31 > 0:20:33in courts across Scotland, agreed to give the view
0:20:33 > 0:20:35from the other side of the dock.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42The most difficult decision that a sheriff normally has to make
0:20:42 > 0:20:46is the one which is on the balance between prison or not to imprison,
0:20:46 > 0:20:48whether there's an alternative.
0:20:48 > 0:20:55If it means receiving public criticism, that's part of the job.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59It's not my job to be popular,
0:20:59 > 0:21:03it's my job to do what I think is right.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06He says sheriffs often use remand to ensure women
0:21:06 > 0:21:10with chaotic lifestyles cooperate with pre-sentencing reports.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12They end up in the situation
0:21:12 > 0:21:15where the only way you can get a report
0:21:15 > 0:21:18is to remand the person in custody.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21That happens quite regularly because of the difficulties that they have.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26- Have all of you been in and out of here a number of times?- Yes.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30Do you leave saying, "I'm not going to get into trouble again?"
0:21:30 > 0:21:32- Aye.- Every time.- Always say it?
0:21:32 > 0:21:34- ALL TALK OVER EACH OTHER - Never coming back.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37ALL AGREE
0:21:37 > 0:21:40What do you feel would change your lives?
0:21:40 > 0:21:42There must be judges sitting there saying,
0:21:42 > 0:21:45"What am I going to do with this woman?"
0:21:45 > 0:21:47when you appear in front of them,
0:21:47 > 0:21:50and they think if I put her inside for a while
0:21:50 > 0:21:52it might mean that she'll stop taking the drugs.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54I've done the programmes
0:21:54 > 0:21:56and you're sent back to your cell,
0:21:56 > 0:21:59and there's no support for when you get back.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02- It's just opens up a can of worms. - ALL TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:22:02 > 0:22:04It brings everything back to the surface.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07'Sadly, we don't get the full follow-up
0:22:07 > 0:22:10'of what has happened to people we've sentenced.'
0:22:12 > 0:22:14The only way we ever find out if it's not worked
0:22:14 > 0:22:17is if they appear again before us at a later date.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21I get the chance of talking to judges regularly,
0:22:21 > 0:22:23and they really are frustrated about
0:22:23 > 0:22:26the very limited menu of options they've got
0:22:26 > 0:22:29for dealing with the troubled women who are coming in front of them.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33What judges need to have is a far greater sense
0:22:33 > 0:22:35of what the alternative possibilities could be.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52One of those alternatives is to divert repeat offenders
0:22:52 > 0:22:54from crime in the first place.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57This day service claims to take a radical approach,
0:22:57 > 0:23:01because although attendance can be recommended through the courts,
0:23:01 > 0:23:03it is essentially voluntary.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Helena Kennedy has come to see if it works.
0:23:10 > 0:23:12Many women here have very similar backgrounds
0:23:12 > 0:23:14to those at Cornton Vale,
0:23:14 > 0:23:17and have also served short sentences.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19'We're working with the most chaotic women,
0:23:19 > 0:23:21'who have offended for a long, long time.'
0:23:21 > 0:23:24They've got multiple problems, whose lives are a mess.
0:23:24 > 0:23:25They've got multiple problems.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28We need to deal with the multiple problems.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35We have a clothes bank, because a lot of women,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38they've lost all their possessions because they've been in prison,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41they've lost their supported accommodation
0:23:41 > 0:23:44or their temporary furnished flat - wherever they've been staying.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49One woman turned up here in her pyjamas.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53Staff from many different areas, including social work,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57housing and psychology, work together here.
0:23:57 > 0:24:01They say dealing with basic needs and underlying complex trauma
0:24:01 > 0:24:04tackles the reason many of these women offend.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06Prison didn't do nothing for me,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09as far as I'm concerned, it was like a holiday camp.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11You had your en-suite shower,
0:24:11 > 0:24:14the only thing was you were locked up at 9.30 at night,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16but you weren't really locked up
0:24:16 > 0:24:19because you were still in the corridor with everybody else.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21You could go and get your hair done, your eyebrows done,
0:24:21 > 0:24:23your nails done, you name it.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26You can get that done in prison, so, to me, it was like a holiday.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28It didn't solve the problems.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31I came straight back out, and as soon as I came out,
0:24:31 > 0:24:33I went right away and bought my coke right away,
0:24:33 > 0:24:35the day I got out, know what I mean?
0:24:35 > 0:24:37This woman credits the service with helping her
0:24:37 > 0:24:38look after her son again.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41It was a lot of guilt, there was a lot of guilt.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45I blamed myself for a lot of the wean going into foster care.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48Because I knew it was all down to me,
0:24:48 > 0:24:50my drug abuse,
0:24:50 > 0:24:52my anxiety,
0:24:52 > 0:24:55and being in a domestic violence relationship.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58He's seen a difference in me before he got took off me
0:24:58 > 0:25:01and the now - he sees a totally different mum.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03You've been through a hard time, too?
0:25:03 > 0:25:06I got a Community Payback Order.
0:25:06 > 0:25:10It was as an alternative to prison, two years ago.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14And it was my criminal justice worker referred me here.
0:25:14 > 0:25:15I wouldn't really engage,
0:25:15 > 0:25:18I wasn't being upfront with them when I first started coming.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21- So, you were secretly drinking, still?- Yeah.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25And I didn't want to face up to my problems, neither I did.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27I was frightened. Scared.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29I started receiving trauma counselling...
0:25:30 > 0:25:35..and it made a massive, massive difference to my life.
0:25:35 > 0:25:40The women that we're working with have experienced complex trauma
0:25:40 > 0:25:43in their lives, and if we continue to just jail them
0:25:43 > 0:25:46and do nothing else, they're just going to repeat.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49That's why the women we're working with just now,
0:25:49 > 0:25:53they've been through that cycle of in and out of prison,
0:25:53 > 0:25:55in and out of prison,
0:25:55 > 0:25:57in front of judges, you know?
0:25:57 > 0:25:59The judges know them.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01This is a different approach,
0:26:01 > 0:26:04a radical approach within criminal justice services.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06But it is an approach that works.
0:26:11 > 0:26:14Prison campaigners say projects like these work,
0:26:14 > 0:26:17but are chronically underfunded and should be given more money
0:26:17 > 0:26:21to expand rather than building new prison units.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25We know, for example, that there are facilities run very successfully
0:26:25 > 0:26:26by the voluntary sector.
0:26:26 > 0:26:30It's...it's a bit baffling to us why the voluntary sector
0:26:30 > 0:26:32hasn't seen more of an uplift,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35or more financial certainty for running these services.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38Which, as far as I understand it, is the intention behind these
0:26:38 > 0:26:41community-based custodial units.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44Judges seem to have their hands tied, and I just wonder
0:26:44 > 0:26:46whether it isn't because
0:26:46 > 0:26:49there aren't enough alternatives in the community
0:26:49 > 0:26:51and that we're not spending money there
0:26:51 > 0:26:53rather than in building new prisons.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56The Justice Minister says he wants
0:26:56 > 0:26:59to cut the women's prison population.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02But is his strategy going to work?
0:27:02 > 0:27:03The experience in Canada
0:27:03 > 0:27:05has been that they tried out something similar,
0:27:05 > 0:27:09but in the end, they found that it's not the bricks and mortar.
0:27:09 > 0:27:11It's actually about putting resource into the way
0:27:11 > 0:27:15in which there is some sort of delivery of rehabilitation.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18I think the experience in Canada is very interesting,
0:27:18 > 0:27:20because nobody has actually achieved
0:27:20 > 0:27:24what we're trying to achieve with the new community-based approach
0:27:24 > 0:27:26that we want to take here in Scotland.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28It's important not to look at this as being an issue
0:27:28 > 0:27:29around bricks and mortar.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31It's about changing the way in which we actually deal
0:27:31 > 0:27:34with the offenders while they're in these establishments.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36There is some evidence, Minister,
0:27:36 > 0:27:40that actually while the funding of the prison service has gone up,
0:27:40 > 0:27:43something like, I don't know, £12 million,
0:27:43 > 0:27:46the equivalent almost reductions
0:27:46 > 0:27:51have taken place in community delivery of services.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54Historically, we are overly dependent upon prisons,
0:27:54 > 0:27:57so absolutely key to trying to deliver this change,
0:27:57 > 0:27:59is to make sure that sentencers
0:27:59 > 0:28:02are actually using the sentencing provisions
0:28:02 > 0:28:03which are available to them
0:28:03 > 0:28:06in the best possible way to achieve better outcomes.
0:28:06 > 0:28:07So, there's a balance to be struck here.
0:28:13 > 0:28:17I hope we can make this programme in ten years' time
0:28:17 > 0:28:22and, uh, and revisit these issues.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25And I would like to find that, in fact,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29we had taken a scythe to the numbers of women who are going to prison,
0:28:29 > 0:28:33that what we're going to be seeing is that the real work
0:28:33 > 0:28:37with women who've offended is being done in communities.
0:28:37 > 0:28:38THAT is what will work.