0:00:03 > 0:00:06Specially chosen programmes from the BBC Archive.
0:00:06 > 0:00:10For this collection, Sir Michael Parkinson has selected
0:00:10 > 0:00:13BBC interviews with influential figures of the 20th century.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16More programmes on this theme, and other BBC Four Collections,
0:00:16 > 0:00:19are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23And now the news is that the Prime Minister is here.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26- Good morning, Prime Minister. - Morning, David.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30From the reports in all the papers today - this headline says,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33"US gives Blix more time but edges closer to conflict" -
0:00:33 > 0:00:37do I gather from this that we in Britain would agree with that,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40and that we are prepared if the inspectors tomorrow say
0:00:40 > 0:00:43they haven't had time to complete the job satisfactorily,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46we would give them further time, whether weeks or months?
0:00:46 > 0:00:49They've got to be given the time to do the job,
0:00:49 > 0:00:51but it's important to define what the job is,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53because this is where I think a lot of confusion comes in.
0:00:54 > 0:00:59The job of the inspectors is to certify
0:00:59 > 0:01:04whether Saddam is co-operating or not with the UN inspections regime.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08And that duty to co-operate doesn't just mean that he has to give them
0:01:08 > 0:01:10access to a particular site,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13it means he's got to co-operate fully
0:01:13 > 0:01:16in saying exactly what weapons material he has,
0:01:16 > 0:01:18allowing the inspectors to inspect it,
0:01:18 > 0:01:20monitor it then shut it down.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22So we would give him extra time?
0:01:22 > 0:01:24Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei?
0:01:24 > 0:01:27We've gone down the UN route precisely because the inspectors have
0:01:27 > 0:01:31got to be the means of trying to resolve this peacefully.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34If the inspectors are able to their job, fine,
0:01:34 > 0:01:37but if they're not able to do their job then we have to disarm
0:01:37 > 0:01:40Saddam by force, and that's always been the choice.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43But we would give them extra time, the inspectors, if they need it?
0:01:43 > 0:01:46Space and time, time and space, you said?
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Of course. I've always said the inspectors should have the time
0:01:48 > 0:01:51to do their job, but what's important is that their job is not
0:01:51 > 0:01:53to repeat what happened in the 1990s.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56What happened in the 1990s is, in April '91,
0:01:56 > 0:02:00when the first Resolution was passed, saying Saddam must disarm,
0:02:00 > 0:02:05he was then supposed to give 15 days' notice of a declaration of
0:02:05 > 0:02:08everything he had, and the inspectors were then to go in and shut it down.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11Now, we've been almost 12 years waiting for him to do that.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14So the time the inspectors need is not time to play
0:02:14 > 0:02:16a game of hide-and-seek with Saddam, where they go in and try
0:02:16 > 0:02:19and find the stuff, and he tries to conceal it.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24The objective of the inspectors is on the basis of a full
0:02:24 > 0:02:26and honest declaration by Saddam of what he has,
0:02:26 > 0:02:30then to shut it down, and so the time they need is in order to certify
0:02:30 > 0:02:33whether he's fully co-operating or not.
0:02:33 > 0:02:34And they should have that time,
0:02:34 > 0:02:37whether it's weeks or even if it's months?
0:02:37 > 0:02:40I don't believe it'll take them weeks...months, rather, to find
0:02:40 > 0:02:43out whether he's co-operating or not, but they should have whatever
0:02:43 > 0:02:47time they need, and we've said that right from the very beginning.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49One of the interesting things about this -
0:02:49 > 0:02:52I heard your report earlier when your correspondent
0:02:52 > 0:02:56was saying war is inevitable - war is not inevitable.
0:02:56 > 0:02:57It depends on Saddam.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00If he co-operates with the inspectors,
0:03:00 > 0:03:03if he says how much material he's got,
0:03:03 > 0:03:07if he co-operates fully with them in allowing them not just access
0:03:07 > 0:03:10but telling them what material he has and allowing them
0:03:10 > 0:03:13then to shut it down and make Iraq safe
0:03:13 > 0:03:16and free of weapons of mass destruction - chemical,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18biological, potentially nuclear - then the issue's over,
0:03:18 > 0:03:20but he's not doing that at the moment.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22That's very clear.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24But I mean, the thing is that we were told,
0:03:24 > 0:03:27we were given to understand that what these inspectors were
0:03:27 > 0:03:31going to come up with was evidence of weapons of mass destruction
0:03:31 > 0:03:34chemical, biological and nuclear.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36Compared to that,
0:03:36 > 0:03:40which obviously is a reason for war or military action,
0:03:40 > 0:03:46these rather pale things, the non-compliance, the shells,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50Blix's men sent on hide-and-seek missions, Iraqi scientists
0:03:50 > 0:03:55not agreeing to an interview unless an Iraqi person was there,
0:03:55 > 0:04:02that all sounds the reason for a stiff rebuke, not a war.
0:04:02 > 0:04:08No. I mean, I profoundly disagree with this idea that somehow Saddam
0:04:08 > 0:04:12refuses to co-operate, then that's OK. That's of a lesser order.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16Look, what we know is that he has this material.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19From what was left over in 1998, for example,
0:04:19 > 0:04:25we know there's something like 350 tonnes of chemical warfare agent.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29We know that there is something like 30,000 special munitions
0:04:29 > 0:04:32for the delivery of chemical and biological weapons.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36He hasn't even told us where those old leftovers from 1998 are.
0:04:36 > 0:04:41Now, what we know Saddam is doing is that there's an elaborate
0:04:41 > 0:04:44process, an infrastructure if you like, of concealment,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47where he's putting the stuff out into different parts of the country,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50concealing it, where he's saying, for example,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52that the people that the inspectors want to interview,
0:04:52 > 0:04:56because that's one of this duties, to allow people to be interviewed,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58these people are being told by the Iraqi authorities
0:04:58 > 0:05:02they can only come for interview with an Iraqi so-called minder
0:05:02 > 0:05:04and only be interviewed in certain places,
0:05:04 > 0:05:07and we know also, from intelligence, that these
0:05:07 > 0:05:09people's families are being told that if they co-operate
0:05:09 > 0:05:12and give any information at all, they'll be executed.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16Now, if he fails to co-operate in being honest, and he is pursuing
0:05:16 > 0:05:20a programme of concealment, that is every bit as much
0:05:20 > 0:05:24a breach as finding, for example, a missile or the chemical agent.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28One of the papers here says that you may prepare another dossier
0:05:28 > 0:05:32because the first one didn't have a lot of impact, and so on,
0:05:32 > 0:05:35but what are the sort of things you can tell us now that
0:05:35 > 0:05:38our intelligence has discovered that you'll be passing on to the world?
0:05:38 > 0:05:41What... Do you have a killer fact?
0:05:41 > 0:05:47What we have is the intelligence that says that Saddam has continued
0:05:47 > 0:05:51to develop these weapons of mass destruction,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54that what he's doing is using a whole lot of dual-use facilities
0:05:54 > 0:05:57in order to manufacture chemical and biological weapons,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59and what we know is that there is an elaborate
0:05:59 > 0:06:01programme of concealment, as I say,
0:06:01 > 0:06:03that is pushing this stuff into different parts of the country
0:06:03 > 0:06:07and therefore forcing the inspectors to play a game of hide-and-seek.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11And what I say to people emphatically is that the UN mandate, set out in
0:06:11 > 0:06:13the UN Resolution in November,
0:06:13 > 0:06:17is a UN mandate that says that Saddam must not just give access to
0:06:17 > 0:06:21different sites but co-operate fully with the inspectors,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24otherwise the thing is a charade with the inspectors,
0:06:24 > 0:06:28who aren't after all a detective agency. They're experts in munitions.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30Do you think at the moment we have, you have,
0:06:30 > 0:06:33in the light of the things you said,
0:06:33 > 0:06:35actually sufficient evidence, if you wish to,
0:06:35 > 0:06:38to go to war tomorrow, if you weren't waiting for the UN?
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Do you think you have the goods on him now?
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Sufficient to back action?
0:06:44 > 0:06:47Well, I've got no doubt at all that he's developing these weapons
0:06:47 > 0:06:49and that he poses a threat,
0:06:49 > 0:06:51but we made a choice to go down the UN route,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54and we're pursuing that UN route, and we'll stick with the UN route.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57I mean... Again, when people say to me...
0:06:57 > 0:06:59I had someone, as I was going into a building the other day,
0:06:59 > 0:07:02someone shouted out to me, "Stop the war!"
0:07:02 > 0:07:04And I said, "I haven't started it."
0:07:04 > 0:07:06We're not at war,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09and what we've laid down is a process that has to be gone through
0:07:09 > 0:07:13where there is a UN mandate given to the inspectors,
0:07:13 > 0:07:15the inspectors have got to fulfil that mandate,
0:07:15 > 0:07:17and our judgment, the American judgment,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20of course is that Saddam has these weapons,
0:07:20 > 0:07:24but the purpose of the inspectors going in is for the inspectors
0:07:24 > 0:07:27then, as, if you like, the objective party, to report back the UN
0:07:27 > 0:07:31and say either he is fully co-operating or he's not.
0:07:31 > 0:07:37So do we need, require...or would prefer a second resolution?
0:07:37 > 0:07:40Of course we want a second resolution,
0:07:40 > 0:07:42and there is only one set of circumstances
0:07:42 > 0:07:46in which I've said that we would move without one,
0:07:46 > 0:07:48and so all this stuff that we're indifferent
0:07:48 > 0:07:52as to whether there's a UN resolution or not is nonsense.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55We're very focused on getting a UN resolution.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57There is one set of circumstances...
0:07:57 > 0:07:58- Just the one? - Just the one.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02And that is the circumstances where the UN inspectors say,
0:08:02 > 0:08:04"He's not co-operating
0:08:04 > 0:08:08"and he's in breach of the resolution that was passed in November,"
0:08:08 > 0:08:12but the UN, because someone, say, unreasonably exercises their veto,
0:08:12 > 0:08:14blocks a new resolution.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16Now, in those circumstances, you damage the UN.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20If the UN inspectors say, "He's not co-operating, he's in breach,"
0:08:20 > 0:08:22and the world does nothing about it.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24But I don't believe that will happen.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26I think that if there is a finding by the inspectors,
0:08:26 > 0:08:29and Monday's report is just the first full report,
0:08:29 > 0:08:31there will be other reports,
0:08:31 > 0:08:34but if they find that he's not co-operating,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37then I believe that a second resolution will issue.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41And again, just to stress the importance of this...
0:08:42 > 0:08:46..if we end up with this issue of weapons of mass destruction,
0:08:46 > 0:08:49which I think is a huge question facing the world today,
0:08:49 > 0:08:51I think this and international terrorism
0:08:51 > 0:08:53are the two big security threats,
0:08:53 > 0:08:56if we face an issue where around Iraq -
0:08:56 > 0:08:59that is a country that has used weapons of mass destruction -
0:08:59 > 0:09:01the UN comes to a position
0:09:01 > 0:09:04and says, "You've got to disarm yourself of those weapons,"
0:09:04 > 0:09:08and then the UN does nothing about the failure to disarm, well,
0:09:08 > 0:09:10how, when we deal with North Korea,
0:09:10 > 0:09:12are we going to get them to treat us seriously?
0:09:12 > 0:09:14How, when we take these issues out to other countries
0:09:14 > 0:09:17that are developing, potentially, nuclear capability,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19are they going to take the international community seriously
0:09:19 > 0:09:22when, faced with the challenge of Iraq, we've done nothing?
0:09:22 > 0:09:25And what about the situation of persuading the people?
0:09:25 > 0:09:29As you will have seen today, the NewGov poll - this is
0:09:29 > 0:09:31in the situation where we go ahead, of course, without UN blessing...
0:09:31 > 0:09:33Of course.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37..and in that situation, 23% minus,
0:09:37 > 0:09:41was the situation in September, minus 23 in favour of no,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44and now it's gone up to 20/73,
0:09:44 > 0:09:48ie 53, more than doubled the opposition to that situation.
0:09:48 > 0:09:52How are you... How can you get through the message to those people?
0:09:52 > 0:09:56You hope, of course, you won't go ahead without UN blessing,
0:09:56 > 0:09:59but if you did, how would you try and convert...
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Because it's very, to put it mildly,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04uncomfortable to go to war with 73% against.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Yes, but again, I think this is because if people are being
0:10:07 > 0:10:09asked today, "Do you support a war?",
0:10:09 > 0:10:12my answer to that is, "We're not at war today."
0:10:12 > 0:10:16And the circumstances in which we would engage in conflict
0:10:16 > 0:10:18are circumstances which haven't yet arisen.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21They are circumstances in which the UN inspectors say,
0:10:21 > 0:10:24"He's supposed to co-operate with us and he's not co-operating.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27"For example, he's refusing to allow us to interview the right people.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29"He's refusing to tell us exactly what's happened to
0:10:29 > 0:10:32"the weaponry that he has," and in those circumstances,
0:10:32 > 0:10:35I think especially if the UN pass the second resolution,
0:10:35 > 0:10:36as I believe they will
0:10:36 > 0:10:38if the inspectors carry on saying he's not co-operating,
0:10:38 > 0:10:40I think public opinion's in a different place.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44I do make this point quite strongly to people -
0:10:44 > 0:10:47were it not for the stand we have taken,
0:10:47 > 0:10:50does anyone seriously think we'd either
0:10:50 > 0:10:52have the UN inspectors in there
0:10:52 > 0:10:54or any chance of resolving this peacefully?
0:10:54 > 0:10:57But at the moment, you do have 75% of the public,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00you've united all our quarrelling clerics in this country,
0:11:00 > 0:11:04they're all against you, and no Muslim leader has come out in favour.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06It's a tough, tough road to hoe.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09Well, it is tough, and it's tough for a very simple reason,
0:11:09 > 0:11:13that people don't see an immediate threat arising from Saddam
0:11:13 > 0:11:17and it's my job as Prime Minister to say to people,
0:11:17 > 0:11:21there may not be an immediate threat in the sense that Saddam's
0:11:21 > 0:11:23about to launch a strike against Britain,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26but this issue of weapons of mass destruction is a huge question
0:11:26 > 0:11:30for the world because we know that countries are trying to develop
0:11:30 > 0:11:32chemical, biological and nuclear weapons,
0:11:32 > 0:11:33these are highly unstable states,
0:11:33 > 0:11:35we know this stuff is being traded across
0:11:35 > 0:11:37international frontiers at the moment,
0:11:37 > 0:11:38we know that international terrorist groups -
0:11:38 > 0:11:40and this is the link with terrorism -
0:11:40 > 0:11:43are trying to acquire these weapons. Unless we take a stand,
0:11:43 > 0:11:47then we will find in years to come, it is very much more difficult
0:11:47 > 0:11:50to deal with this issue, and I think it is only a matter of time
0:11:50 > 0:11:54before international terrorism and these types of weapons come together.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56I mean, you know, you can already see from the arrests
0:11:56 > 0:11:58that are happening right round Europe -
0:11:58 > 0:12:01these terrorist groups will use chemical weapons if they can.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03They don't have the capability at the moment
0:12:03 > 0:12:07to cause enormous damage with those but if could do so, they would.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11Colin Powell said in an interview with me some time ago,
0:12:11 > 0:12:14back in September or whatever,
0:12:14 > 0:12:17and he's said it since,
0:12:17 > 0:12:22that the important thing is not knowing when to start a war,
0:12:22 > 0:12:25it's knowing how to end it.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Now, what are we going to do if we get to Baghdad,
0:12:28 > 0:12:31if we're victorious, um, what happens then?
0:12:31 > 0:12:32How are we going to end it?
0:12:32 > 0:12:35Are we going to set up a UN protectorate or what?
0:12:35 > 0:12:37We must know that, obviously.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Well, we don't know the precise details of all that.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43That's something to discuss with the UN, with allies, obviously,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47but what we do know is that it should be a stable government
0:12:47 > 0:12:51that tries to release Iraq from what is, frankly,
0:12:51 > 0:12:53the appalling situation Saddam's put it in.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55Cos remember, partly as a result of the fact
0:12:55 > 0:12:58we've been unable to contain Saddam any other way,
0:12:58 > 0:13:02the world has had to impose through the UN sanctions on Iraq which,
0:13:02 > 0:13:05because of the way Saddam operates those sanctions,
0:13:05 > 0:13:09have meant terrible misery and exploitation
0:13:09 > 0:13:12for millions of Iraqi people. So, you know, that's why I...
0:13:12 > 0:13:15You know, you mentioned the clerics a short time ago.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17I've always found it odd that anybody,
0:13:17 > 0:13:21particularly people who are, if you like, are more on the centre-left,
0:13:21 > 0:13:23could ever dispute the fact that getting rid of Saddam
0:13:23 > 0:13:24would be a huge bonus for the world.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26The Archbishop of Canterbury said
0:13:26 > 0:13:30that it's in violation of Christian moral teaching.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33That was the man you made Archbishop of Canterbury.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35Well, then it's his... As I always say to people,
0:13:35 > 0:13:37it's his right to speak out as he wants.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39But I think it would be...
0:13:39 > 0:13:43certainly a violation of our duty to protect the world
0:13:43 > 0:13:47if we, having laid down the law, through the UN, to Saddam,
0:13:47 > 0:13:48then walked away from it.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51You must be annoyed, obviously, with Chirac and Schroeder
0:13:51 > 0:13:52on this particular issue.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56I mean, you must sometimes think, "God, why didn't we join NAFTA?"
0:13:56 > 0:13:59No, I don't think that, no.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01I mean, they're entitled to different views
0:14:01 > 0:14:03but, you know, French foreign policy
0:14:03 > 0:14:06no more represents European foreign policy, exclusively,
0:14:06 > 0:14:08than does British foreign policy. Countries have different positions.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11But not all European countries are in that position.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13Spain, Italy, other European countries
0:14:13 > 0:14:15have strongly supported the stand we've taken.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Fear of Israel. They've made it clear
0:14:18 > 0:14:21that if they're attacked by Saddam, they'll nuke him back.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23Are you worried about what that would do?
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Well, one of the reasons why we're taking this action
0:14:27 > 0:14:30is that if Saddam is allowed to build up these weapons,
0:14:30 > 0:14:33then of course he will threaten his neighbours. He's done it before.
0:14:33 > 0:14:38But it is extremely important that we make sure
0:14:38 > 0:14:41that we reduce whatever possibility there is of any conflict
0:14:41 > 0:14:43we're engaged in spreading.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45Incidentally, one...
0:14:45 > 0:14:48I mean, if there is any advantage in what Saddam has done,
0:14:48 > 0:14:50which is to try and dismantle the programme
0:14:50 > 0:14:52and push it out and conceal it in different parts of the country
0:14:52 > 0:14:55is that it's more difficult for him to bring it together.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58But, I mean, would you give him a warning,
0:14:58 > 0:15:03rather like the warning that then President Bush did in the Gulf War,
0:15:03 > 0:15:07that if he was to use any of these weapons which we say he's got,
0:15:07 > 0:15:10that we would use nuclear weapons?
0:15:10 > 0:15:15I don't think any warnings we give are best done in a public way,
0:15:15 > 0:15:17and in any event,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20we'll consider that situation when we get nearer the point of action,
0:15:20 > 0:15:22if action there needs to be,
0:15:22 > 0:15:24but, as I say, just to come back to the basic point I'm making,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27Saddam could avoid a war today
0:15:27 > 0:15:31if he made an honest, full declaration of the material he has.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36"Know thine enemy" - that was another phrase that Colin Powell once said.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39Obviously, we have psychological profiles and everything,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42you're trying to assess and second-guess
0:15:42 > 0:15:44what Saddam will do next and so on.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48Do you think you are dealing with a man who is mad...
0:15:49 > 0:15:51..or bad?
0:15:51 > 0:15:52Well, bad, certainly.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54- I mean, anybody... - Mad?
0:15:54 > 0:15:57I'm not in a position to judge that.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00I mean, he's exercised considerable skill, actually,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03in avoiding the UN mandate for 12 years.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07People do forget, as I say, in April 1991
0:16:07 > 0:16:10when the inspectors...the first UN resolution was passed,
0:16:10 > 0:16:1315 days was the deadline. Well, we're 12 years later.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15You require a certain amount of skill
0:16:15 > 0:16:18in playing the international community off against each other.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19- So... - Some skill in that.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23And in terms of the trip to see the President this week,
0:16:23 > 0:16:28what's the most important thing... you've got to do...
0:16:28 > 0:16:30or you both have got to do,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33when you meet following the reports, tomorrow's reports,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36what's the most important item on the agenda?
0:16:38 > 0:16:43To agree the right strategy, um, for the future and to go out
0:16:43 > 0:16:45and explain to people, yet again,
0:16:45 > 0:16:47why it is important to deal with this issue
0:16:47 > 0:16:51and I think that the missing part which, you know, we've got
0:16:51 > 0:16:56a responsibility to get across to people is to explain how...
0:16:56 > 0:16:57why we are concerned about this
0:16:57 > 0:16:59whole issue of weapons of mass destruction,
0:16:59 > 0:17:02because I think there's a sense in which people feel...
0:17:02 > 0:17:04Look, if something like 11th September happens,
0:17:04 > 0:17:08they can see an immediate... event has happened,
0:17:08 > 0:17:12there's an immediate threat, there's something you need to go after.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14I think it's a lot more difficult with this issue
0:17:14 > 0:17:16because people don't perceive an immediate threat
0:17:16 > 0:17:20and yet it's our job, I think, to say to people, "Look,
0:17:20 > 0:17:22"this is why we're worried about this issue,
0:17:22 > 0:17:24"not just in respect of Iraq,
0:17:24 > 0:17:27"but more broadly than that and this is the potential link
0:17:27 > 0:17:30"this has with these terrible, extremist, fanatical groups
0:17:30 > 0:17:35"who have given a quite different dimension to terrorism."
0:17:35 > 0:17:38And people do say... What about the people who say that there's
0:17:38 > 0:17:40a real downside to this?
0:17:40 > 0:17:45There's the...Britain becoming a more attractive target for terrorism,
0:17:45 > 0:17:50er, the Middle East going up in flames. All of those things.
0:17:51 > 0:17:56Iraqis being killed, civilians being killed in their hundreds, um...
0:17:56 > 0:17:59What do you feel about that? There is a downside, obviously.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01You're not painting this as 100% perfect.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03No, of course not, and the very reason
0:18:03 > 0:18:06we went down the UN route, when some people thought
0:18:06 > 0:18:07that we were just going to lash out,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10is precisely to give peace a chance to work but, in the end,
0:18:10 > 0:18:12what have we learned from our own history
0:18:12 > 0:18:17and the history of the world? That if there is, um, wrong in the world,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20if there is a threat and you don't deal with it,
0:18:20 > 0:18:23you have to deal with it with even worse consequences in the future
0:18:23 > 0:18:25and, you know, the person who's killed hundreds, thousands
0:18:25 > 0:18:27of Iraqis is Saddam.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30I mean, he's the person who used chemical weapons
0:18:30 > 0:18:32against his own Iraqi people.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35Incidentally, about Britain being a target...
0:18:35 > 0:18:38who would have thought Indonesia was going to be a target,
0:18:38 > 0:18:41when those people died in Bali, or Kenya?
0:18:41 > 0:18:46Um, round the whole of Europe, there are arrests happening,
0:18:46 > 0:18:48not just in Britain, but in France, for example,
0:18:48 > 0:18:49which you might have thought has taken
0:18:49 > 0:18:52a slightly softer position on the question of Iraq.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56We're not going to avoid this by hiding away
0:18:56 > 0:18:58and it's not what the British do anyway.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00I mean, there's a struggle on and we've got to be there
0:19:00 > 0:19:02and we will have, I think...
0:19:02 > 0:19:06You know, we would have no influence in shaping it unless we were there
0:19:06 > 0:19:09and prepared to be there and I really passionately believe this.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13The world is very ambivalent towards America on these issues.
0:19:13 > 0:19:14We want America to deal with these issues
0:19:14 > 0:19:17and yet we want to attack them at the same time.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20And I think that when America is taking on these tough
0:19:20 > 0:19:22and difficult questions, our job is to be there,
0:19:22 > 0:19:24not be there at any price, not be there without saying
0:19:24 > 0:19:26how we think the thing should be dealt with,
0:19:26 > 0:19:30but being there in the difficult and tricky times,
0:19:30 > 0:19:34not simply there, you know, as fair-weather friends.