0:00:02 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections -
0:00:03 > 0:00:06specially chosen programmes from the BBC Archive.
0:00:06 > 0:00:07For this Collection,
0:00:07 > 0:00:08Sir Michael Parkinson
0:00:08 > 0:00:10has selected BBC interviews
0:00:10 > 0:00:12with influential figures
0:00:12 > 0:00:13of the 20th century.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15More programmes on this theme
0:00:15 > 0:00:16and other BBC Four Collections
0:00:16 > 0:00:18are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22The French Foreign Secretary, Dominique de Villepin,
0:00:22 > 0:00:26won unprecedented applause at the United Nations last month
0:00:26 > 0:00:31for an impassioned speech against war on Iraq or immediate war on Iraq.
0:00:31 > 0:00:32France is convinced
0:00:32 > 0:00:35it speaks for the majority of the international community,
0:00:35 > 0:00:39certainly for the individuals in it if not all the governments.
0:00:39 > 0:00:43But how far will it go in defiance of the United States?
0:00:43 > 0:00:45'I met Mr de Villepin yesterday
0:00:45 > 0:00:50'and, in the magnificent setting of the French Foreign Ministry -
0:00:50 > 0:00:52'look at that setting there,
0:00:52 > 0:00:54'eat your heart out, Jack Straw -
0:00:54 > 0:00:59'we talked about whether France will try to veto the use of force
0:00:59 > 0:01:02'and whether that would do lasting damage
0:01:02 > 0:01:04'to its relationship with America.'
0:01:04 > 0:01:09But first, I asked him why he sees the situation so differently
0:01:09 > 0:01:12from our own Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw,
0:01:12 > 0:01:16who described Saddam's last-ditch decision to dismantle missiles
0:01:16 > 0:01:19as "a cynical trick".
0:01:19 > 0:01:23We believe that the key factor, the referee...
0:01:24 > 0:01:27..are the inspectors.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31The rule of the game is Resolution 1441,
0:01:31 > 0:01:36and the referee are the inspectors, Mr Blix and Mr El Baradei.
0:01:36 > 0:01:42They are the eye and the hand of the international community in Iraq.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44They know what's going on on the ground.
0:01:44 > 0:01:49You cannot say, "I want Saddam Hussein to disarm,"
0:01:49 > 0:01:52and at the same time, when he's disarming, say,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55"They're not doing what they should".
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Maybe they're not doing enough.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59That's exactly the job of the inspectors,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03and that's exactly what we are trying to get with them,
0:02:03 > 0:02:08to get more, to get the complete fulfilling of the programmes
0:02:08 > 0:02:09during the next days and months.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13What the US and the UK seem to be saying, though, in addition,
0:02:13 > 0:02:16is they're saying the things that are really important
0:02:16 > 0:02:21are the possible 8,500 litres of anthrax
0:02:21 > 0:02:24or 360 tonnes of chemical-warfare agents,
0:02:24 > 0:02:27that these are the important ones.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31Sir David, one year ago, almost all the experts were saying,
0:02:31 > 0:02:34"What's important is the nuclear programmes
0:02:34 > 0:02:37"and the ballistic programme".
0:02:37 > 0:02:39We know already, and Mr El Baradei said
0:02:39 > 0:02:43that in a couple of months he might be able to certify,
0:02:43 > 0:02:46that there is no nuclear programmes in Iraq.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50In the ballistic, we've seen the progress made through the missiles.
0:02:50 > 0:02:55Now we come to the biological and chemical programmes.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59We make progress also on these fields.
0:02:59 > 0:03:03We have a chance through the inspections
0:03:03 > 0:03:04peacefully...
0:03:05 > 0:03:08..to disarm Iraq, which is very important for us.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11Why? Because there is not only Iraq.
0:03:11 > 0:03:16We should not forget Iraq is one of the many countries
0:03:16 > 0:03:18that do possess weapons of mass destruction.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21And it is absolutely a very important challenge
0:03:21 > 0:03:23for the international community
0:03:23 > 0:03:27to be able to solve the Iraqi crisis peacefully,
0:03:27 > 0:03:29because what are we going to do next?
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Are we going also to make war with North Korea?
0:03:32 > 0:03:34Are we going to go to war to the other Middle East countries
0:03:34 > 0:03:37that do possess weapons of mass destruction?
0:03:37 > 0:03:41I think the use of force must be only, as President Chirac says,
0:03:41 > 0:03:43a last resort.
0:03:43 > 0:03:47But yesterday I noticed the Prime Minister was talking about
0:03:47 > 0:03:50the fact that although the people
0:03:50 > 0:03:56who appeased Germany, Hitler, in 1938 and so on were good people,
0:03:56 > 0:03:57that appeasement is always a mistake
0:03:57 > 0:04:00and implying that this thing of letting him go on,
0:04:00 > 0:04:02letting Saddam Hussein have the benefit of the doubt
0:04:02 > 0:04:06and go on for 120 days, is some form of appeasement.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08Is there any parallel?
0:04:08 > 0:04:11Are we in the same situation in Iraq?
0:04:11 > 0:04:14Can you make really a comparison between the two?
0:04:14 > 0:04:17I'm not saying that there is on one side
0:04:17 > 0:04:19the countries that want to act -
0:04:19 > 0:04:22the US, the UK, Spain -
0:04:22 > 0:04:26and the other side the countries that don't want to do anything.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28We are not a pacifist country.
0:04:28 > 0:04:34Remember, we are the first contributor of troops to NATO.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36We were in the past one of the leading countries
0:04:36 > 0:04:38that were in Bosnia and in Kosovo.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40We were first in Afghanistan.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44We had 70 soldiers that died in Bosnia.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46We are not pacifist.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49We are ready to take full responsibility.
0:04:50 > 0:04:55And we said if the use of force at one point is absolutely needed,
0:04:55 > 0:04:58then of course we might take these decisions.
0:04:58 > 0:04:59But the question is...
0:04:59 > 0:05:02And sometimes at night I wake up...
0:05:03 > 0:05:06..thinking, "Have we tried everything?"
0:05:06 > 0:05:09You see, peace is a very important thing.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12It's a very strong benefit for mankind.
0:05:12 > 0:05:17And we should only accept the use of force when we have tried everything.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20Have we tried everything? France says no.
0:05:20 > 0:05:27And I think that before you send, before the US send some boys in Iraq,
0:05:27 > 0:05:31we have to answer the question, is it necessary?
0:05:31 > 0:05:32Is it worth it?
0:05:32 > 0:05:34That's the two questions.
0:05:34 > 0:05:39If it is needed as a last resort, force is necessary.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43Since you feel so strongly, Foreign Secretary,
0:05:43 > 0:05:45you've been asked in the last day or two
0:05:45 > 0:05:50about the fact of in what circumstances or would you ever
0:05:50 > 0:05:53consider a veto in terms of this second resolution,
0:05:53 > 0:05:54because you feel so strongly,
0:05:54 > 0:05:56as you've been saying, about war and so on?
0:05:56 > 0:06:02And basically, your reply was once or twice, I read, that, basically,
0:06:02 > 0:06:06France wants to keep all its options open.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08So that means you haven't ruled it out.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12When we wrote together, the Security Council, Resolution 1441,
0:06:12 > 0:06:14what have we said?
0:06:14 > 0:06:18We've said that we should work through the inspection
0:06:18 > 0:06:21till when we find ourselves in a deadlock.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23And it is to the inspectors to make a report and say,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26"Well, we cannot work any more".
0:06:26 > 0:06:29Are we in such a situation? No.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31Do we need a second resolution? No.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Are we going to oppose a second resolution? Yes.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36As the Russian and many other countries,
0:06:36 > 0:06:40we are going to take full responsibility, of course,
0:06:40 > 0:06:42because it's a very important matter.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45It is the world of the international community which is at stake,
0:06:45 > 0:06:51and we believe the UN should not be put in a position to just...
0:06:51 > 0:06:56put a rubber stamp on a decision that has already been made.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00You see, the calendar, the timetable of the international community
0:07:00 > 0:07:02may be not...
0:07:02 > 0:07:04the timetable of war.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06But you don't make war on a timetable.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11And do you think that the relationship
0:07:11 > 0:07:14between France and the United States
0:07:14 > 0:07:19can survive both at the highest level
0:07:19 > 0:07:21and also at the people level
0:07:21 > 0:07:24the tremendous bitterness that exists at the moment?
0:07:24 > 0:07:26I spend a lot of time in the States.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30I saw one thing where polls asked
0:07:30 > 0:07:33who, after the three countries in the Axis of Evil,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36who should be number four, and France won hands down.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Even the Brits wouldn't say that as a joke, probably.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42But also, French fries have been taken off restaurant menus.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46So at the popular level, there's a lot of hatred.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49And there's a lot of resentment, also, at the upper level.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52Do you actually think relations between the US and France
0:07:52 > 0:07:53will ever be the same again?
0:07:53 > 0:07:58This is not a problem between the United States and France,
0:07:58 > 0:08:00neither between the UK and France.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04It is the problem of how are we going to deal with the Iraqi crisis.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07What kind of world do we want to live in?
0:08:07 > 0:08:09This is the key.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11And we think that when you have a friend...
0:08:12 > 0:08:14..sometimes this friend disagrees.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19And it is very important for a friend to be able to tell the truth.
0:08:19 > 0:08:20What do you think? How do you feel?
0:08:20 > 0:08:24We feel that today going to war is premature,
0:08:24 > 0:08:26and we say it and we assume it.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28It is important to have such kind of friends
0:08:28 > 0:08:30who are able to tell you exactly.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33Do you think in retrospect it was a mistake
0:08:33 > 0:08:36for France to say what the President did
0:08:36 > 0:08:38to the countries of Eastern Europe,
0:08:38 > 0:08:45that their entry into the EU might be blocked by France...
0:08:45 > 0:08:47- No. - ..if they dared childishly....
0:08:47 > 0:08:49- He didn't say that. - ..to disagree with him?
0:08:49 > 0:08:52He didn't say that. He said that he was hurt,
0:08:52 > 0:08:57as many people in Europe, he was hurt by this initiative.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59You see, when you are in a family...
0:08:59 > 0:09:01But he did say they've not been very well behaved...
0:09:01 > 0:09:02- Yeah, but that's different. - ..they've missed
0:09:02 > 0:09:03a great opportunity to shut up...
0:09:03 > 0:09:04He didn't say he was going to block.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06..if they want to reduce their chances of entering Europe,
0:09:06 > 0:09:08they could not have found a better way.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12Yes, but he didn't say he will block, which is very different.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16No, I think when you are in a family you need to say what you think.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20That is part of the family. If you don't speak clearly...
0:09:22 > 0:09:24..then it's when you get misunderstandings.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28We all do agree to have a good relationship with the US.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32We are all friends of the US. This should not divide Europe.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36And I don't think we should consider that this Iraqi crisis
0:09:36 > 0:09:40is a crisis between Europe and the United States.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42I think the one thing it's demonstrated
0:09:42 > 0:09:45is that the idea, at least for a few years,
0:09:45 > 0:09:50the idea of a common European foreign policy is dead as a dodo, isn't it?
0:09:50 > 0:09:52- No, I don't think so. - No?
0:09:52 > 0:09:56Of course agreeing on war or peace is very important,
0:09:56 > 0:09:59but I must say that I'm glad
0:09:59 > 0:10:03when I see that the people of Europe at least are united.
0:10:03 > 0:10:08And you see, 90% of the world community do agree to the fact
0:10:08 > 0:10:11that we should give more time to the inspectors.
0:10:11 > 0:10:1490%! And there is in every of our countries
0:10:14 > 0:10:19more than 80% of the people who agree along the same lines.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22We think force should be used as a last resort.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25Some countries may think that with force in Iraq
0:10:25 > 0:10:28you are going to get the end of terrorism,
0:10:28 > 0:10:30the end of proliferation in the world
0:10:30 > 0:10:31and the end of the general crisis
0:10:31 > 0:10:35and like by magic you're going to make peace in the Middle East.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37We don't agree.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40But in that situation, surely, the progress that's been made
0:10:40 > 0:10:42in terms of disarmament,
0:10:42 > 0:10:46which you rate much greater than, obviously, President Bush does
0:10:46 > 0:10:48or anyone in the UK,
0:10:48 > 0:10:54but that progress would only have happened with that man Saddam
0:10:54 > 0:10:56with the threat of force
0:10:56 > 0:11:00and with the immense financial and other sacrifice
0:11:00 > 0:11:03of the United States sending 200,000 troops there.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Without that, all of this wouldn't have happened.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10Of course the build-up, the military build-up,
0:11:10 > 0:11:12has been putting a lot of pressure on Iraq.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14But we have also not to forget
0:11:14 > 0:11:18that there is a timetable set by Resolution 1441, very clear.
0:11:18 > 0:11:19There is no deadline.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21But there IS a timetable,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24which is the reports that every two or three weeks
0:11:24 > 0:11:27the inspectors are making for the Security Council.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31When we met at the ministerial level the 14th of February
0:11:31 > 0:11:33in the Security Council,
0:11:33 > 0:11:37the fact that this report was coming was a very strong pressure on Iraq
0:11:37 > 0:11:40as well as the next report, which is going to come
0:11:40 > 0:11:42maybe on the 7th of March.
0:11:42 > 0:11:49This pressure obligates Iraq as well as the different countries
0:11:49 > 0:11:51to get results, to get more results.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53But they only even listened to Blix's reports
0:11:53 > 0:11:55because of the threat that's behind them,
0:11:55 > 0:12:00which is not a Blix threat but it is a US, UK threat.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04Force can give results if force is legitimate,
0:12:04 > 0:12:08if force goes along with the right, with principle, with law.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10It is not the case today.
0:12:10 > 0:12:15So we must give inspectors more time.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18And looking ahead now...
0:12:18 > 0:12:21in conclusion, would you say...
0:12:23 > 0:12:25..that it is likely
0:12:25 > 0:12:30that we will see war in the next few months in Iraq or not?
0:12:30 > 0:12:32Or are you optimistic? Are you pessimistic?
0:12:32 > 0:12:36It's very difficult to be optimistic in such a situation.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39We all see the determination of the United States.
0:12:39 > 0:12:41But I know also something from history,
0:12:41 > 0:12:45that history is never written in advance.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47We must...
0:12:47 > 0:12:51try to find a way, we must work to find a way,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54because our conviction is the use of force
0:12:54 > 0:12:56in such a context, in such a situation
0:12:56 > 0:12:59may have very deep, very important consequences.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01And that's why I believe it's important
0:13:01 > 0:13:05to keep talking with one another,
0:13:05 > 0:13:09try to understand, try to find really what are the best solutions.
0:13:09 > 0:13:10Are we going to go to war
0:13:10 > 0:13:14because we don't want to wait a couple of weeks or months more?
0:13:14 > 0:13:18Is it really worth it to go to war today?
0:13:18 > 0:13:19I think these are questions still pending,
0:13:19 > 0:13:21and we are waiting for answers.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23Mr Foreign Secretary, thank you so much.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Thank you, Sir David.