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0:00:20 > 0:00:24President Bush, Tony Blair and other NATO leaders
0:00:24 > 0:00:28are arriving today at all different hours for a crucial NATO summit.
0:00:28 > 0:00:33The President, of course, coming just from Ankara across to Istanbul.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35One key issue is, of course, Iraq.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38So far, British and American troops have been the primary force
0:00:38 > 0:00:40trying to establish security ahead of the handover
0:00:40 > 0:00:42to the interim government this week.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45The US Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld,
0:00:45 > 0:00:48is the man in charge of all American military operations,
0:00:48 > 0:00:51therefore military operations in Iraq.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53And he has just arrived in Istanbul.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57I spoke to him just a few minutes ago for a rare interview,
0:00:57 > 0:01:00and I began asking him whether the NATO alliance
0:01:00 > 0:01:04remained as important as it was during the Cold War.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Well, I think it is.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11It's a different role and a different time in our world's history,
0:01:11 > 0:01:17but NATO remains the most outstanding military alliance
0:01:17 > 0:01:19on the face of the Earth.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24It serves as the critical linkage between Europe and North America.
0:01:24 > 0:01:29And it fulfils a function and has the potential to, prospectively,
0:01:29 > 0:01:33that really can't be filled by any other institution.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37It could, of course, do more on some issues, like Iraq,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40but for the fact, obviously, that you have that...
0:01:40 > 0:01:43the three members of old Europe there - France, Germany and Belgium.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46It would be difficult to have anything other than
0:01:46 > 0:01:51a coalition of the willing if you're going into a new crisis.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54It does hold back what NATO can do a bit.
0:01:55 > 0:02:00Well, when you have an organisation with that many members, now 26,
0:02:00 > 0:02:04and you have an operation that's based on consensus,
0:02:04 > 0:02:09it's understandable that it will take some time to discuss and debate
0:02:09 > 0:02:13and consider and make sure everyone is working off the same fact pattern.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17To the extent people have the same threat assessment,
0:02:17 > 0:02:21they tend to do the same things and react the same way.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24To the extent people look at things from a different perspective
0:02:24 > 0:02:26and they're not working off the same sheet of music,
0:02:26 > 0:02:30it's not surprising when they go off in different directions.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33With the case of Iraq, we anticipate that at this summit,
0:02:33 > 0:02:38the heads of state will end up agreeing that NATO,
0:02:38 > 0:02:40the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44will, in fact, have a role in training and equipping
0:02:44 > 0:02:48the Iraqi security forces, which is a very good thing, if that happens.
0:02:48 > 0:02:55Tell me, Mr Secretary, are you where you hoped to be 14 months ago
0:02:55 > 0:02:57when the war came to an end,
0:02:57 > 0:02:58or not?
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Oh, no.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04One would always hope for better.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07You know, you... Wars are unpredictable
0:03:07 > 0:03:11and postwar recoveries are unpredictable.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Most countries have a very difficult time.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18I've been reading statements about how long it took
0:03:18 > 0:03:22the United States to move towards a democracy,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25and history books on Japan and Germany
0:03:25 > 0:03:28and some of the Eastern European countries.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30It's never been easy, it's always difficult,
0:03:30 > 0:03:34it's frequently violent and sometimes it's even ugly.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36Um, it was Jefferson who said
0:03:36 > 0:03:40that one ought not to expect to be transported towards democracy
0:03:40 > 0:03:42on a feather bed.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44It is a tough path,
0:03:44 > 0:03:47and the Iraqis are going to go through a tough period.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49But they're doing pretty well.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52The schools are open, the hospitals are open,
0:03:52 > 0:03:54the people are coming back in,
0:03:54 > 0:03:58refugees are returning, internally displaced people, there.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00They have food, they have electricity,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03they're selling oil, they have a budget.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06They also have a lot of Iraqis being killed by,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09in some cases violent Iraqis, extremists,
0:04:09 > 0:04:12in some cases by foreign terrorists.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14But they are on a path.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17The new government is a good thing
0:04:17 > 0:04:21and it'll take responsibility in two or three days.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25I have a lot of confidence that they'll be able to find their way
0:04:25 > 0:04:27towards a truly Iraqi solution.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30It won't look like your country and it won't look like our country
0:04:30 > 0:04:33but it will certainly look an awful lot better than
0:04:33 > 0:04:37the Saddam Hussein killing fields and mass graves
0:04:37 > 0:04:41and shoving people off the tops of buildings to kill them
0:04:41 > 0:04:42and cutting off their hands
0:04:42 > 0:04:46and pulling out their tongues with pliers and chopping them off,
0:04:46 > 0:04:48which is what that repressive regime did.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51But people do all say, Mr Secretary, at the same time,
0:04:51 > 0:04:55that we were responsible, partially, for the security situation.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00We clearly completely underestimated the degree of violence,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03lack of security that there would have been.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05We would have had more soldiers there,
0:05:05 > 0:05:06we would have done something different
0:05:06 > 0:05:10if we hadn't underestimated the danger on security.
0:05:12 > 0:05:13Well, there are people who say that.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16There are also people who argue the other side -
0:05:16 > 0:05:20that the real task of security is not to flood a country
0:05:20 > 0:05:24with more and more troops and become a foreign occupier.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28If you think about it, the Soviet Union had 300,000 troops
0:05:28 > 0:05:30in Afghanistan and lost the war.
0:05:30 > 0:05:35So victory and success is not inversely proportional
0:05:35 > 0:05:39to the number of people you have in the country.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41We don't want to be an occupying power.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45In the last analysis, governance and essential services
0:05:45 > 0:05:48and progress economically go hand-in-hand
0:05:48 > 0:05:50with successful security.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53The Iraqi people are going to have to provide
0:05:53 > 0:05:57for the security of that country, and they are well on the way to doing it.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00And in terms of Mr Allawi, the prime minister,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03when he was with us back in December and again just a few weeks ago,
0:06:03 > 0:06:07said on both occasions that he thought that one of the big mistakes
0:06:07 > 0:06:09was to disband the Iraqi army.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12He could see why it might have been seen as a good idea at the time,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15but putting all of those people out of jobs,
0:06:15 > 0:06:17that was a really serious error
0:06:17 > 0:06:22and affected our inability to patrol the borders and all of those things.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26I've read that and I've heard him say it.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28In fact, I've visited with him about it.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32His hope is to reconstitute some aspects of the Iraqi army.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34And I think that's a good thing.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38The reality is that we did not, in effect, disband the Iraqi army.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40The Iraqi army disbanded itself.
0:06:40 > 0:06:46It stopped fighting, it left, it disappeared into its villagers
0:06:46 > 0:06:49and took their weapons with them.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53And now the task - I think Mr Allawi is exactly correct -
0:06:53 > 0:06:56is to try to keep recruiting those people back.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00We've already recruited back some 206,000 Iraqis
0:07:00 > 0:07:01into the security forces -
0:07:01 > 0:07:04the police, the army, the Civil Defence Corps,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06site protection and border patrol.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10And his goal is to increase that number above the current 206,000
0:07:10 > 0:07:15by some significant margin, and I think that's a good thing.
0:07:15 > 0:07:16But do you think...
0:07:16 > 0:07:19I mean, Tony Blair was saying here on the programme
0:07:19 > 0:07:23that he was hoping very much that the number of British troops in Iraq
0:07:23 > 0:07:27by the end of next year would be greatly reduced.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29And the President, on the other hand,
0:07:29 > 0:07:31said you're there for as long as it takes.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34But it actually is possible, isn't it, that you will need
0:07:34 > 0:07:36in this current crisis of the handover
0:07:36 > 0:07:38maybe to increase the number of troops?
0:07:38 > 0:07:41There are reports that your nominee for the next commander
0:07:41 > 0:07:43wants 25,000 more troops.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Is it possible in the short term you'll have to put in more troops?
0:07:48 > 0:07:52Well, what the new commander, General Casey,
0:07:52 > 0:07:57said in his confirmation hearing was that if he needed more troops,
0:07:57 > 0:07:59he would ask for them - number one.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02Number two - that we were already doing the planning
0:08:02 > 0:08:07in the event that that requirement became necessary.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09And that's only prudent planning.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12I initiated that some months ago - that we would take a look.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14And I said to General Myers,
0:08:14 > 0:08:17the Chairman of our Joint Chiefs of Staff,
0:08:17 > 0:08:21"Get the work done now. In case General Abizaid or General Casey
0:08:21 > 0:08:23"decide they need more troops,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26"I need to know where we would get them, what they would look like
0:08:26 > 0:08:29"and where they would be located, how they'd be deployed."
0:08:29 > 0:08:31That does not mean we will need them,
0:08:31 > 0:08:34it means that we're doing the prudent planning to need them.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36Now, in answer to your other question,
0:08:36 > 0:08:42we've actually gone from 113,000 troops up to 141,000 troops
0:08:42 > 0:08:44over the past three or four months already,
0:08:44 > 0:08:46so we've had a fairly significant increase.
0:08:48 > 0:08:52Coming on for a moment to the awesome subject, really,
0:08:52 > 0:08:55of the abuse of prisoners and so on.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57The headlines about that,
0:08:57 > 0:08:59probably in every country in the world,
0:08:59 > 0:09:01have been there all this week, of course,
0:09:01 > 0:09:04because of the administration's release of the documents
0:09:04 > 0:09:06regarding prisoner abuse and so on.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09And reading through them, Mr Secretary,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12there's one that says about how in December 2002
0:09:12 > 0:09:16you approved a list of new interrogation techniques
0:09:16 > 0:09:21to be used at Guantanamo Bay, which included dogs, nudity,
0:09:21 > 0:09:25hooding of prisoners, fear of dogs, use of stress positions,
0:09:25 > 0:09:29er, isolation for up to 30 days, 20-hour interrogations,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31forced shaving and so on.
0:09:31 > 0:09:32Now...
0:09:32 > 0:09:36Instantly, one would say, that six weeks later you retracted that.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38But what changed your mind?
0:09:40 > 0:09:43Well, the sequence went like this.
0:09:43 > 0:09:44I received a proposal
0:09:44 > 0:09:48from the commander in charge of Guantanamo Bay
0:09:48 > 0:09:53to permit a series of techniques to be used for interrogation.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56They were checked with the lawyers, they were determined to be
0:09:56 > 0:10:00within the President's order that the treatment be humane.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03And I ended up looking at the list
0:10:03 > 0:10:06and rejected a number of them
0:10:06 > 0:10:09and accepted some and approved it.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12Shortly after I approved it, in a matter of weeks,
0:10:12 > 0:10:16there was some discussion that took place among some lawyers
0:10:16 > 0:10:19that they were concerned about some of those techniques.
0:10:19 > 0:10:20So I said, "Fine."
0:10:20 > 0:10:24I orally discontinued the use of those techniques,
0:10:24 > 0:10:26said, "Get the lawyers' group together.
0:10:26 > 0:10:28"Let's have another discussion over this
0:10:28 > 0:10:32"and come back and tell me what we think is the appropriate way,
0:10:32 > 0:10:36"consistent with Geneva Conventions and consistent with humane treatment,
0:10:36 > 0:10:38"that they ought to be treated."
0:10:38 > 0:10:41So, that first tranche of techniques
0:10:41 > 0:10:45were in place, I believe, for a matter or five or six weeks
0:10:45 > 0:10:47and then they were discontinued,
0:10:47 > 0:10:51and about a month later we issued a new order
0:10:51 > 0:10:56indicating what the procedures and techniques would be permitted.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58You asked how it happened.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02It happened because there was a single detainee
0:11:02 > 0:11:05that was being interrogated -
0:11:05 > 0:11:08his name was Qahtani, al-Qahtani -
0:11:08 > 0:11:11who was considered to be the 20th hijacker
0:11:11 > 0:11:16in connection with the 9/11 attack on the United States,
0:11:16 > 0:11:18where 3,000 people were killed -
0:11:18 > 0:11:22men, women and children from dozens of different countries.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24And he was not being cooperative
0:11:24 > 0:11:29and the request came up in connection with that person.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34The techniques that you described were not used, I'm told,
0:11:34 > 0:11:37on anyone other than Qahtani.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41We may find out that's not correct at some point in the future,
0:11:41 > 0:11:46but at least my information thus far is that that's the case.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49And that's kind of the background for that.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53This was a very bad person, a person who clearly had information
0:11:53 > 0:11:55about attacks against the United States,
0:11:55 > 0:12:01and the techniques had all been approved by the legal community
0:12:01 > 0:12:05and the Joint Staff and in the Department of Defense
0:12:05 > 0:12:08and at the Combatant Command.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11And it was after some concern came up
0:12:11 > 0:12:14that we decided to rescind them and relook at them.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17And... But, of course you're very close to these things,
0:12:17 > 0:12:22but when one reads things in these documents about lawyers
0:12:22 > 0:12:24in the Justice Department or other departments
0:12:24 > 0:12:26coming up with judgements like,
0:12:26 > 0:12:29"Certain acts may be cruel, inhuman or degrading,
0:12:29 > 0:12:31"but still not produce pain and suffering
0:12:31 > 0:12:33"within the requisite intensity
0:12:33 > 0:12:37"to fall within the law's proscription against torture."
0:12:37 > 0:12:40You can probably understand that's shocking,
0:12:40 > 0:12:43to think of people trying to widen the definition
0:12:43 > 0:12:46of what they can do that isn't torture.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50It just seems bizarre. Or worse.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52It... It... Well, it seems like
0:12:52 > 0:12:56a bunch of lawyers debating legal points.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59In fact, that set of debates took place
0:12:59 > 0:13:02not in the Department of Defense, as I recall,
0:13:02 > 0:13:05- but in the Department of Justice... - Right.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09..and didn't really have any bearing on the procedures
0:13:09 > 0:13:14and techniques that ended up being used by the Department of Defense.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19And in terms of the famous Major General Miller,
0:13:19 > 0:13:25the hard man of Guantanamo, who was sent to improve the record,
0:13:25 > 0:13:29or the flow of information, on his first trip just for a few days,
0:13:29 > 0:13:33people say that in those few days he affected the whole climate,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36that he sent lists of what he did in Guantanamo
0:13:36 > 0:13:42to battalion commanders and so on, and your Brigadier General,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44or then Brigadier General, Janis Karpinski,
0:13:44 > 0:13:46said that Major General Miller insisted
0:13:46 > 0:13:49that prisoners should be treated like dogs.
0:13:49 > 0:13:54Now the FT say this, and I don't know... This is the FT,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57the Financial Times, said, "One fact remains undisputed.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00"Less than two months after his departure from Iraq,
0:14:00 > 0:14:02"the first of the shocking photographs were taken.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06"Whether one event helped cause the other is the question that
0:14:06 > 0:14:09"could decide the fate of an administration."
0:14:11 > 0:14:14Well, I've not seen the article you are referring to.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18I think the reality is that the administration
0:14:18 > 0:14:20has seen those photographs,
0:14:20 > 0:14:23the photographs were released by the government
0:14:23 > 0:14:25of the United States, by the military in Baghdad.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27They weren't found by the press, there was
0:14:27 > 0:14:32no investigative reporting or anything, discovering anything.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34The minute it was determined that those photographs existed,
0:14:34 > 0:14:37the military went out to the press
0:14:37 > 0:14:40and said there are allegations of abuse and there's an investigation.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43Within a short period of time, they announced that there
0:14:43 > 0:14:47are criminal prosecutions under way with respect to those photographs.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50Every thing we know, thus far,
0:14:50 > 0:14:56suggests that the...what was taking place in the photographs was abuse.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59We have not yet determined in any connection at all
0:14:59 > 0:15:03between that abuse and an interrogation process.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07Indeed, the majority of the people in those pictures
0:15:07 > 0:15:09engaged in that abuse
0:15:09 > 0:15:13were individuals who were not even security detainees -
0:15:13 > 0:15:15that is to say they were not people
0:15:15 > 0:15:19that were even being interrogated, for the most part.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23Some may very well have been being interrogated,
0:15:23 > 0:15:25but not necessarily in those photographs.
0:15:25 > 0:15:29They may have been detainees that people wanted information from,
0:15:29 > 0:15:33but those activities, I think, it would be
0:15:33 > 0:15:39a mistake to suggest, er, represented interrogation techniques.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44Now, we're going to know as the trials proceed precisely what
0:15:44 > 0:15:48happened and I'm in an awkward position because I'm not allowed to
0:15:48 > 0:15:52talk about these things for fear of being accused of command influence.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55What one can say is that the acts depicted
0:15:55 > 0:15:57in the pictures were abusive.
0:15:57 > 0:16:02We now have to complete the investigations to determine
0:16:02 > 0:16:05exactly how they occurred, why they occurred,
0:16:05 > 0:16:11and to see that the individuals engaged in them receive a punishment
0:16:11 > 0:16:15that's appropriate with whatever may have been done that was incorrect.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18Well, we've mentioned Guantanamo
0:16:18 > 0:16:19and moving on to, in fact,
0:16:19 > 0:16:21this week, Mr Secretary,
0:16:21 > 0:16:24on Guantanamo that, as you will have read,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Lord Goldsmith, who's the Attorney General here, said that
0:16:27 > 0:16:32that there are certain principles which there can be no compromise,
0:16:32 > 0:16:34a fair trial is one of those,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37and the reason why we in the UK have been unable to accept that
0:16:37 > 0:16:41the US military terms proposed for those at Guantanamo Bay
0:16:41 > 0:16:44offer sufficient guarantee of a fair trial and so on.
0:16:44 > 0:16:45What's your response to that?
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Well, I'm not a lawyer and I'm familiar with his views
0:16:50 > 0:16:54and, of course, there are other views by other individuals
0:16:54 > 0:16:56who are considered to be fine attorneys.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00The circumstance at the present time
0:17:00 > 0:17:06is there is a process in Guantanamo Bay to review the detainees.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10They currently have still, I believe, about 595.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Some 150 to 200 have already been released -
0:17:13 > 0:17:17some have been released to the UK, I think four or five.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21Er, there is an annual review process where each individual
0:17:21 > 0:17:24is reviewed to determine whether or not
0:17:24 > 0:17:28their continued detention is appropriate.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32The... If you think about it, in every war,
0:17:32 > 0:17:37people who have been captured have been captured for various reasons.
0:17:37 > 0:17:42One reason might be to try them for having done something wrong.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47Another reason might be to interrogate them
0:17:47 > 0:17:51to see what one can learn that could save additional lives.
0:17:51 > 0:17:53And a third reason is to keep them
0:17:53 > 0:17:57off the battlefield during the continuation of the conflict,
0:17:57 > 0:18:02even though you may not learn any information more from them
0:18:02 > 0:18:04and even though you may not end up trying them.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08You simply don't want them going back on the battlefield
0:18:08 > 0:18:10and killing more of your people.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14We've let loose thousands and thousands of people
0:18:14 > 0:18:15that have been captured.
0:18:15 > 0:18:20It's the case, I think, that a few weeks ago the Prime Minister
0:18:20 > 0:18:26asked whether the four Brits out there could be sent back to Britain
0:18:26 > 0:18:28and then another suggestion was
0:18:28 > 0:18:32could they be tried under American trial rules in America,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35but is that now no longer negotiable?
0:18:35 > 0:18:41I mean, they are going to be tried in Guantanamo or is it still negotiable?
0:18:43 > 0:18:44I just don't know.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47My recollection is that there were nine Brits involved
0:18:47 > 0:18:49and four or five have already been released...
0:18:49 > 0:18:51- That's right. - ..back to the UK,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54and that there are four or five left
0:18:54 > 0:18:56and what ultimately will be done,
0:18:56 > 0:19:01whether they'll be tried in a military commission or eventually
0:19:01 > 0:19:05returned to the UK for their handling, I just don't know.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08That's all being dealt with... I don't make those decisions.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11It's been dealt with in an orderly process.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14Well, I guess the Prime Minister and the President can sort it out
0:19:14 > 0:19:18- over the soup today or something. - Exactly.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20What about Iran, Mr Secretary?
0:19:20 > 0:19:23I would have asked you about this anyway
0:19:23 > 0:19:27but we had that announcement on Friday that they are resuming
0:19:27 > 0:19:30their nuclear programme, at least for the centrifuges and so on.
0:19:30 > 0:19:35- That's a bad sign, isn't it? - Well, it is.
0:19:35 > 0:19:40You have a country that's ruled by a handful of clerics
0:19:40 > 0:19:43that is repressing the Iranian people,
0:19:43 > 0:19:47that is causing harm in Afghanistan,
0:19:47 > 0:19:52causing harm in Iraq, is actively working with Hezbollah
0:19:52 > 0:19:58and Syria to spread terrorism down through Lebanon into Israel.
0:19:58 > 0:20:04Er, it's a government that has been not telling the truth
0:20:04 > 0:20:09about its role in its nuclear development. It's a country
0:20:09 > 0:20:15that has been harbouring senior al-Qaeda leadership for some time,
0:20:15 > 0:20:20and most recently we've seen them resisting the UN process
0:20:20 > 0:20:24that they previously seemed to have agreed to,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27but are obviously not adhering to.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Are we winning the battle with al-Qaeda? I mean, we see the...
0:20:31 > 0:20:34How much of what you were saying earlier about the two forces
0:20:34 > 0:20:37that are causing death in Iraq, do you think we are winning
0:20:37 > 0:20:42the battle or is it a draw at the moment, a tie?
0:20:44 > 0:20:46Well, in Iraq, I think
0:20:46 > 0:20:49that, over time, we'll see that despite the difficulties,
0:20:49 > 0:20:54despite the deaths and despite the problems that we see,
0:20:54 > 0:20:59that the Iraqi people will end up recapturing their country
0:20:59 > 0:21:03and fashioning an approach to government that will be
0:21:03 > 0:21:05a peaceful one for its neighbours
0:21:05 > 0:21:09and ultimately provide much greater prosperity for the region.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14Separate out the global war on terror,
0:21:14 > 0:21:19or the struggle that's taking place between extremists and radicals
0:21:19 > 0:21:23against moderates, both within that religion
0:21:23 > 0:21:26and out of that religion... Answering the question
0:21:26 > 0:21:30as to whether we're winning that is a very difficult one.
0:21:30 > 0:21:36I wrote a memorandum that ended up, leaking its...finding its way
0:21:36 > 0:21:39into the newspaper unintentionally where I described it as,
0:21:39 > 0:21:42"It'll be a long, hard slog" and the reason I say that is
0:21:42 > 0:21:46because we're being very successful, with a 90-nation coalition,
0:21:46 > 0:21:50we're being very successful in exchanging intelligence information,
0:21:50 > 0:21:54in freezing bank accounts, in capturing and killing
0:21:54 > 0:21:57senior members of these organisations.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00On the other hand, we don't have a good visibility
0:22:00 > 0:22:04into how many new recruits are coming in, the intake,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07and going to these radical madrasah schools
0:22:07 > 0:22:12and learning how to go out and kill people and being encouraged
0:22:12 > 0:22:17and equipped and trained and deployed to do those suicide missions.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21We don't know that and unless one knows that, you can't answer
0:22:21 > 0:22:24the question, "Are you winning or losing?"
0:22:24 > 0:22:29I think the struggle is not so much a global war on terror.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32Terror is really the weapon of choice,
0:22:32 > 0:22:34it's the technique they're using -
0:22:34 > 0:22:37what the struggle really is... It's a...
0:22:37 > 0:22:40almost a global insurgency
0:22:40 > 0:22:44by a very small number of extremists and radicals
0:22:44 > 0:22:47that are determined to attack the state system -
0:22:47 > 0:22:52countries, civilised societies, in an attempt to terrorise them
0:22:52 > 0:22:55and intimidate them and alter their behaviour.
0:22:55 > 0:23:00And one final question, just briefly, Mr Secretary,
0:23:00 > 0:23:02if President Bush wins the election
0:23:02 > 0:23:07and invites you to return to the Pentagon, would you do a second term?
0:23:09 > 0:23:12I'm already doing my second term, David.
0:23:12 > 0:23:13Oh, yes, you were
0:23:13 > 0:23:17- the 13th Defense Secretary as well. - That's right.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20As Adlai Stevenson said, "I'll jump off that bridge
0:23:20 > 0:23:23"when I get to it." FROST LAUGHS
0:23:23 > 0:23:25Well, thank you very much for joining us today
0:23:25 > 0:23:29for a wide-ranging discussion and we hope to do it again soon.
0:23:30 > 0:23:31I look forward to it.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33- Thank you very much. - Thank you.