:00:22. > :00:34.Welcome to our panel discussion of the life and work of Sir Roger Cass
:00:35. > :00:45.meant. I am delighted to have two distinguished speakers here. On my
:00:46. > :00:54.right shall each acrobatic, director of liberty for 13 years. A leading
:00:55. > :00:59.human rights campaigners and advocates in this country and some
:01:00. > :01:07.with an international reputation in the human right fields. On my left,
:01:08. > :01:13.press about Sean McConville, professor of law and public policy.
:01:14. > :01:20.His research centres on the history of punishment and contemporary
:01:21. > :01:26.criminal appeal policy. Thank you for coming here and we will talk for
:01:27. > :01:32.a little while about some aspects of the career of Roger Cassment as a
:01:33. > :01:40.national list, Irish nationalists. May I say that this year is an
:01:41. > :01:50.important year for Ireland's and we have been, Malaysian the events of
:01:51. > :01:59.1916, not just the events of Easter week and their aftermath, but also
:02:00. > :02:05.the events of the Great War. The key focus of this year for Ireland has
:02:06. > :02:10.been the central element in the narrative of modern Irish history,
:02:11. > :02:14.the Easter rising. Roger Casement is perhaps one of the most interesting
:02:15. > :02:21.features from 1916 because there were many unlikely Irish
:02:22. > :02:27.nationalists, Irish revolutionaries during that period is and in the
:02:28. > :02:37.years that followed and Roger Casement was won because he was from
:02:38. > :02:42.drew up -- grew up between Antrim drew up -- grew up between Antrim
:02:43. > :02:46.and Dublin and was a member of the British consular service for all of
:02:47. > :02:52.his career and distinguished himself as a humanitarian, a subject we will
:02:53. > :03:08.come back to. He was drawn, like many others, into Irish nationalism.
:03:09. > :03:12.Their skin Chiders is another one -- Erskine Chiders who went from
:03:13. > :03:20.fighting in the bore water within a supporter of Irish independence and
:03:21. > :03:24.was executed by the Irish Government eventually. A lot of people from
:03:25. > :03:29.backgrounds that would not be typically Irish nationalists were
:03:30. > :03:36.drawn into the cause of Irish independence in that period. As I
:03:37. > :03:40.say, Roger Casement is perhaps certainly one of the most
:03:41. > :03:50.interesting figures because of the range of things he did during his
:03:51. > :04:02.career. Perhaps, Sean, I might ask you as the first question, to tell
:04:03. > :04:10.us a little bit about the life and times of Roger Casement and his, the
:04:11. > :04:14.context which drew him into the struggle for Irish independence in
:04:15. > :04:18.the second decade of the 20th century. Thinking about what I was
:04:19. > :04:25.going to say this evening there are a couple at most of you will know by
:04:26. > :04:32.interesting times. Around 1560 interesting times. Around 1560
:04:33. > :04:40.21612, and he said "Treason never does prosper, what is the reason?
:04:41. > :04:43.For if it prosper none dare call it treason." There is a kind of theme
:04:44. > :04:46.here tonight of that kind and I here tonight of that kind and I
:04:47. > :04:53.would like to talk about it. He lived through the reigns of some
:04:54. > :05:02.pretty bloody monarchs at that time. Shami, -- Roger Casement, was not a
:05:03. > :05:04.leader of the rebellion and was leader of the rebellion and was
:05:05. > :05:10.never really involved but, more than that, he was not a conspirator, he
:05:11. > :05:16.was not the Fenian who was sentenced in this country and served five
:05:17. > :05:28.years penal servitude is an live long enough to take... Roger
:05:29. > :05:32.Casement was not back, he was a hopeless conspirator, as I will tell
:05:33. > :05:39.you. If you have been scouring the world for someone to recruit to
:05:40. > :05:46.conspire he would have been hiked up your list. -- high up. He was a
:05:47. > :05:54.terribly decent man and you will hear about this from frostbite. I
:05:55. > :06:04.want a doc about his Irish involvement. He was captured on
:06:05. > :06:10.Easter Monday, which was the late Easter that year and on the Monday
:06:11. > :06:17.in 1916 rising occurred is his mission was not to bring aid and
:06:18. > :06:22.assistance to the 1916 Arising, it was to try and stop it. He had been
:06:23. > :06:26.negotiating with the German high command which has been described as
:06:27. > :06:31.the greatest single assembly of intelligence in the history of the
:06:32. > :06:40.world and they were not impressed with Roger Casement and his plans.
:06:41. > :06:45.They were somewhat more impressed with the Irish Republican
:06:46. > :06:48.Brotherhood and they did send a ship with 20,000 rifles, but Roger
:06:49. > :06:52.Casement had cut himself out of things and they sent him to Ireland
:06:53. > :06:59.on a submarine. Nobody was there to meet him, he struggled ashore, it's
:07:00. > :07:04.thoroughly soaked and wanders around a bit and is eventually arrested by
:07:05. > :07:12.two Royal Irish Constabulary rural policeman. That was not a high level
:07:13. > :07:17.of policing in those days, this is the far reaches of Ireland. The
:07:18. > :07:22.volunteers behind the 1916 rising did not know he was coming and when
:07:23. > :07:27.he was in custody they took no steps to release him when is a good shot
:07:28. > :07:30.on the door and the big shout that got the Sergeant to see happen and
:07:31. > :07:39.police beat him in Galway. They did not do that. He was speedily brought
:07:40. > :07:45.to England's to be tried in London and I have two point lead in mind.
:07:46. > :07:47.One is the world going on at this point and the other is Roger
:07:48. > :07:59.Casement's processing through the system. He was brought to Euston
:08:00. > :08:05.station on the evening of the Sunday are handed over and taken to Brixton
:08:06. > :08:10.prison. The last Dublin execution which were Connelly and McDermott,
:08:11. > :08:15.occurred on the 12th of May, the last executions of the 1916 rising.
:08:16. > :08:22.His trial opened on the 26th of June, he was found guilty. It was
:08:23. > :08:28.inevitable he would be found guilty. If we time later on I would like to
:08:29. > :08:31.appealed on the 17th and 18th of appealed on the 17th and 18th of
:08:32. > :08:34.July and that was dismissed, refused leave to appeal to the house of
:08:35. > :08:40.Lords and executed on the 3rd of August. At same time the first day
:08:41. > :08:49.of the Battle of the Somme occurred on the 1st of July. The first day of
:08:50. > :08:54.the many battles of the song, Verdun, the biggest battle of the
:08:55. > :09:00.war so far, came to a conclusion, Jutland came to a conclusion and a
:09:01. > :09:06.captain in the British merchant Marine who in 1915 rand a German
:09:07. > :09:12.submarine and sunk it, was captured by the Germans executed for murder.
:09:13. > :09:17.British public opinion was very unfavourable to Roger Casement, to
:09:18. > :09:21.say the least. That continued throughout his process. One thing I
:09:22. > :09:26.do what you do bear in mind, we think of war is being remote, this
:09:27. > :09:31.was the first war that through the came home in this country. In the
:09:32. > :09:39.casualty list is published every day. Hundreds upon hundreds of
:09:40. > :09:45.people and for the Mac was tried at this time and in that atmosphere.
:09:46. > :09:56.That is the context of what you. -- Roger Casement was tried in this
:09:57. > :10:01.time. Can I turn the clock back to Casement's Korea in the consular
:10:02. > :10:09.service? Had it not been for his involvement in execution in 1916,
:10:10. > :10:16.happy recall retired to county Antrim and lived out his retirement
:10:17. > :10:21.quietly -- retired to County Antrim. I suppose we would not see him as a
:10:22. > :10:29.great humanitarian activists. As somebody who has been in this world,
:10:30. > :10:33.tell us something about the periods and what Casement tried to do in
:10:34. > :10:38.humanitarian sphere? Thank you. It is wonderful to be
:10:39. > :10:47.here. It is very neat and tidy to have the human right piece over here
:10:48. > :10:50.and the anti-imperial piece or National 's piece over there but, of
:10:51. > :10:58.course, we believe the two are related. I will apologise in advance
:10:59. > :11:05.to all the Casement experts in the room, possibly relatives and so on.
:11:06. > :11:08.One of the drawbacks of ending up as a national, international treasure
:11:09. > :11:15.is people will take from your life what the needs and what they want.
:11:16. > :11:25.Let me be clear, that is what I are about to do. I am an ex-civil
:11:26. > :11:32.servants turned rebel. That's... I do not think I am such an unlikely
:11:33. > :11:38.conspirator. Maybe at first instance but there are things in this journey
:11:39. > :11:47.that are connected and potentially relevant. In terms of human rights
:11:48. > :11:53.activism today, and what young people aspire to do all over the
:11:54. > :11:59.world when they say, I want a career in human rights. What many of them
:12:00. > :12:02.want to do is go to places, sometimes far away places, and they
:12:03. > :12:06.want to bear witness and they want want to bear witness and they want
:12:07. > :12:12.to record and they want to report. That is of course a great diplomatic
:12:13. > :12:16.service and consular service, Foreign Office tradition. Ukip
:12:17. > :12:20.trained to do it and you are professionalised to do it. -- you
:12:21. > :12:30.are trained to do it. You look at what you see. We human beings are
:12:31. > :12:33.complex creatures and we are intelligent and logical and
:12:34. > :12:38.professional but we also have a basic human empathy. You have your
:12:39. > :12:43.unlikely conspirator ambassador, who is in the consular service and goes
:12:44. > :12:54.too far away parts, the Congo and the Amazon and looks at the dirty
:12:55. > :12:58.little scoundrels, not so little, actually, being perpetrated there.
:12:59. > :13:05.We have King Leopold running a little private racket in the Congo,
:13:06. > :13:12.leading to the abuse and enslavement of local people there because of...
:13:13. > :13:16.And then he goes and does the same thing and he experiences, he
:13:17. > :13:20.watches, he bears witness and there are different ways to do this kind
:13:21. > :13:24.of work. Ways to do it in a very dispassionate and is bureaucratic
:13:25. > :13:36.driveway. To do the witness and do the report
:13:37. > :13:40.and not be moved I guess but clearly this is not the case. What is
:13:41. > :13:46.interesting is that something happens via and somehow this man is
:13:47. > :13:52.moved from just being a pure Kerry a consular official. Some spark must
:13:53. > :13:56.have been let. I think sometimes when we are discussing liberation
:13:57. > :14:02.struggles the world over, even today, we separate liberation
:14:03. > :14:10.struggles from the passion for human rights. They are often completely
:14:11. > :14:16.inspired by indignation at injustice and just wanting people to have
:14:17. > :14:22.basic human rights protection. Having seen them be so exploited and
:14:23. > :14:28.abused and persecuted. I think that is the key to your unlikely
:14:29. > :14:34.conspirator but ultimately a human being of amazing empathy and
:14:35. > :14:37.college. Because there must have been many diplomats have stop he was
:14:38. > :14:44.not the only want to go to the Congo. Many of the major countries
:14:45. > :14:50.of the world will have had consular officers in the Congo and Amazon
:14:51. > :14:55.region. I am sure for 20, 30, 40 years they could have witnessed what
:14:56. > :14:59.was happening there. Casement was a man who clearly was driven to not
:15:00. > :15:04.just observe it but create a major fuss about it and write a report
:15:05. > :15:13.which probably resulted ultimately in the downfall of the Elgin system
:15:14. > :15:18.in the Congo. Of course, it a lot of people back here in Britain
:15:19. > :15:24.supported him strongly so he did manage to create a movement to
:15:25. > :15:27.oppose what was happening in the Congo which others might have been
:15:28. > :15:30.willing to turn a blind eye to because it was only happening in
:15:31. > :15:37.deepest Africa. It did not really matter. You could almost argue he
:15:38. > :15:39.was one of the founding fathers of a tradition that you now see in
:15:40. > :15:47.international human rights practice or discipline which is the report
:15:48. > :15:51.writer. You see it today in the amnesties and the human rights
:15:52. > :15:55.watchers and whatever. We begin with the observation and the report and
:15:56. > :16:03.the reading witness. We don't necessarily end the but we begin
:16:04. > :16:06.the. That is actually... It is interesting because he comes from
:16:07. > :16:13.that sort of public service tradition. That public service
:16:14. > :16:19.tradition has now morphed in the 20th and 21st-century in to almost
:16:20. > :16:25.the foundation of international human rights. Sean, could I just
:16:26. > :16:31.turn back to you for a moment? One of the distinctive aspects of the
:16:32. > :16:39.Casement story is that unlike the other leaders, or the readers who
:16:40. > :16:45.were executed in the first 12 days of May 1916 in Dublin, and one in
:16:46. > :16:48.court, the 15th were executed directly for their part in the
:16:49. > :16:55.Easter rising, they were all subjected to very cursory
:16:56. > :17:01.court-martial is that lasted 15 minutes in many cases. Whereas
:17:02. > :17:08.Casement, of course, as you said, was brought back to London and was
:17:09. > :17:16.subjected to, I suppose, a normal legal process. Could you tell us
:17:17. > :17:24.something about the case and the kind of impact the case made during
:17:25. > :17:30.that summer of 1916? When so much else was happening in the world. It
:17:31. > :17:34.was procedurally fair. No one else has argued this was not a
:17:35. > :17:38.procedurally fair trial and Casement was guilty and according to the law
:17:39. > :17:42.of the day he deserved to be executed. That was undoubtedly
:17:43. > :17:47.clear. A couple of things could have saved them. One was his defence
:17:48. > :17:54.counsel who was not very good, I regret to say, AM Sullivan, some of
:17:55. > :18:00.the young islander and unfamiliar with British practice was apparently
:18:01. > :18:06.a bit nervous in court and also run a defence which was slightly crazy.
:18:07. > :18:12.That was that the act of 1851 under which Casement was tried had served
:18:13. > :18:17.wording that essentially, if you committed the offence of treason
:18:18. > :18:20.outside the King 's realm, or outside any realm controlled by the
:18:21. > :18:25.king, you were not guilty of treason. This was not going to fly,
:18:26. > :18:30.ladies and gentlemen. The second leg of the defence was he was raising
:18:31. > :18:34.one of the things the British strongly objected to. It was
:18:35. > :18:42.Casement proselytising Irish prisoners of war in Germany to join
:18:43. > :18:46.an Irish Brigade. He managed to recruit 52 of them. If you read the
:18:47. > :18:51.accounts I think he was ashamed of that in the end. He recruited young
:18:52. > :18:56.private soldiers without their officers. What he was inviting them
:18:57. > :19:01.to do, he said himself, was inviting them to put their heads into a
:19:02. > :19:05.noose. They had no idea what they were doing. Somewhere complete
:19:06. > :19:11.scalawags and were happy to get out of the prisoner of war to goad
:19:12. > :19:16.drinking and do other things which the authorities do not particularly
:19:17. > :19:21.like. Others were more serious. Somewhere between scalawags and
:19:22. > :19:24.serious people. He gets his trial. One of the ironies of the trial to
:19:25. > :19:31.me was the then Attorney General was none other than F E Smith, Lord can
:19:32. > :19:38.head. Lord Birkenhead in 1912 had come as close as cigarette paper to
:19:39. > :19:43.treason himself in Northern Ireland. There was no question about that at
:19:44. > :19:48.all. He was quite cheerful about this. He did not have any conscience
:19:49. > :19:54.about it. His cheer was this, it is all the luck of the draw, you had
:19:55. > :19:59.your go, you did not come off, I was OK. He had no conscience about this
:20:00. > :20:04.at all. One of the things I will say because it will later. Birkenhead
:20:05. > :20:08.offered Sullivan the black diaries and we will talk about those any few
:20:09. > :20:14.minutes. Sullivan did not take them. He said have a look at them, you can
:20:15. > :20:19.enter a plea of insanity. Casement did not want to do that for these
:20:20. > :20:25.reasons. I think he recognised he was going to die. He was not happy
:20:26. > :20:30.with the defence of Sullivan. Werner Chalk urged a completely different
:20:31. > :20:35.defence in him which was to say I am an Irish rebel, tiny, essentially.
:20:36. > :20:38.Easement would have preferred that and actually the outcome would have
:20:39. > :20:43.been rather better if he had done that and stop these three days of
:20:44. > :20:48.silly legal argument. The Judy was grocers and tailors and bereft of
:20:49. > :20:53.living in London. There was no case he was going to be acquitted. The
:20:54. > :20:59.procedure was full of ironies and I think a slightly effective defence
:21:00. > :21:03.though one member of his defence team was a man called Davin Duffy
:21:04. > :21:07.who later went on to become president of the first Irish Supreme
:21:08. > :21:17.Court. He himself was a descendant of a young islander. I think that is
:21:18. > :21:21.about it that I can see about it. He wanted to make his defence one of
:21:22. > :21:28.justification. It is true. The diaries were offered. Spring rise
:21:29. > :21:32.was a British ambassador in Washington, DC. He was very
:21:33. > :21:37.concerned about the trial and said this trial will have an enormous
:21:38. > :21:42.effect on American opinion. Do not forget, this summer of 1916 was the
:21:43. > :21:48.war with undecided. America entering into the war or otherwise was a huge
:21:49. > :21:52.issue for the British government. I think spring rise who was
:21:53. > :21:56.Anglo-Irish and self ID soft spot for Casement but he said this is a
:21:57. > :22:03.great worry. Ambassadors can express worries but that is about it. I know
:22:04. > :22:11.there was... He had a lot of friends and admirers of his humanitarian
:22:12. > :22:17.work within British Society at that time. It was an effort made by some
:22:18. > :22:25.of his admirers to secure a pardon for him. I know that Asquith
:22:26. > :22:33.certainly considered the idea but turned it down. I have always been a
:22:34. > :22:38.huge admirer of Asquith but rereading some of my notes and some
:22:39. > :22:42.of this I began to think maybe my admiration was slightly misplaced.
:22:43. > :22:46.We will come to it again with the black diaries. While Casement was
:22:47. > :22:49.still undergoing legal process these diaries were circulated and I will
:22:50. > :22:56.tell you why I think that was wrong. Asquith had somebody together - 2
:22:57. > :23:00.dinner and said I have seen these diaries. Asquith said tell as many
:23:01. > :23:04.people as you like about them. This is not a nice thing to do on a
:23:05. > :23:07.proper thing to do. The repeat was kind of doomed but is interesting
:23:08. > :23:12.because it shows the width of support there was, partly because of
:23:13. > :23:19.the humanitarian work Casement had done. It rained from people like
:23:20. > :23:26.Arthur Conan Doyle who was the main organiser among literary figures, to
:23:27. > :23:32.Morrell who admired Casement's work in the Congo. These churchmen and
:23:33. > :23:37.other literary figures. A vast array of people and I don't know what I
:23:38. > :23:44.can see about it. It was not a pardon they wanted. They wanted a
:23:45. > :23:49.reprieve. The difference between hanging and either previous
:23:50. > :23:52.considerable. Leave me. He was offered the kind of insanity defence
:23:53. > :23:56.but did not take it because he thought it would be dishonest. AM
:23:57. > :24:01.Sullivan his defence counsel disliked him. Years later he
:24:02. > :24:04.recorded his dislike of him and said Casement was also willing to have
:24:05. > :24:13.the, sexual aspect of the diaries read in court. He turned it down.
:24:14. > :24:17.Whether this is true or not I do not know but it is in his memoirs.
:24:18. > :24:22.People remember different things and if they like -- dislike easement so
:24:23. > :24:27.much they may have gotten some things and remembered others. It was
:24:28. > :24:37.an inevitable outcome. Absolutely inevitable. Can I ask you, Sean,
:24:38. > :24:44.about the black diaries? The diaries were found in a House around the
:24:45. > :24:53.corner from here and they have been a source of controversy ever since.
:24:54. > :25:00.Certainly, when I first started taking an interest in hydration
:25:01. > :25:04.history as a student in the early 1970s, there was a general
:25:05. > :25:08.assumption that they were forgeries. Now I think there is a not quite
:25:09. > :25:14.universal but general consensus that they were genuine. Could you just
:25:15. > :25:18.tell us a little bit about how these diaries came into play? In fact,
:25:19. > :25:26.they had no relevance to the case that was being made against Casement
:25:27. > :25:30.at all. They did not do anything. They were never, even though you say
:25:31. > :25:35.he would have been willing to have them read out in court, you are
:25:36. > :25:40.never mentioned doing the trial. Could you maybe give us a little pen
:25:41. > :25:46.picture of the black diaries? I will but before that I will disobey the
:25:47. > :25:57.rules of hospitality and disagree with you. He was called
:25:58. > :26:01.anti-imperialist but he was very pro-the German Empire. He said IP
:26:02. > :26:07.fret because with the coming of that day the Irish question becomes a
:26:08. > :26:12.European and world question. This was the pamphlet he published called
:26:13. > :26:16.the crime against Ireland. In other words he was rooting for a German
:26:17. > :26:21.Imperial victory throughout the war until he went to Germany and has his
:26:22. > :26:26.experience with the German General staff. At which point he described
:26:27. > :26:32.them at Howard 's and lower than dogs. We are not dealing with the
:26:33. > :26:37.Saint here. We are dealing with somebody who was caught up in the
:26:38. > :26:43.world's turbulence and thought he had found a way out and a way of
:26:44. > :26:46.resolving it. We might just say this he became against all empires
:26:47. > :26:51.because he also lost faith in the German Empire. Perhaps the final
:26:52. > :26:54.lesson of his life was not to believe in empires but find
:26:55. > :27:01.something else to believe in. What can I say, I have not gone any
:27:02. > :27:07.further than I have gone. I am a weird of where I am. Listen, the
:27:08. > :27:11.ambassador is quite right. They were collected just around the corner. I
:27:12. > :27:16.think they were in British possession for quite a long while.
:27:17. > :27:20.There was a Chirac played out at Scotland Yard with a policeman comes
:27:21. > :27:28.in and says we have found some trunks. Mr Casement, do you have the
:27:29. > :27:31.key? No. They had these trunks from the point he started issuing road
:27:32. > :27:42.German pamphlets. In the black diaries, I think, are
:27:43. > :27:46.significant for this discussion. I do not know if any of you have read
:27:47. > :27:55.them but they are a list of observations and encounters and
:27:56. > :28:02.intermixed with the details. "I Bought a part of steak. I saw a
:28:03. > :28:06.boy," and then a very explicit description of the boy. My only
:28:07. > :28:13.question is not whether they are forged, my question is about the
:28:14. > :28:18.extent to which there was an odd intent and were fantasy. I do not
:28:19. > :28:23.think -- autoerotic. I do not believe they were all recordings of
:28:24. > :28:27.actual events, I think there is a large probability of erotic musing
:28:28. > :28:33.in them. What is interesting to me and will be to honourable lady, as
:28:34. > :28:43.someone interested in a legal process, these diaries was
:28:44. > :28:56.circulated in London -- of interest to Shami.
:28:57. > :29:02.Because, I mean, let's face it, Casement went to war, and when you
:29:03. > :29:06.go to war it is not a tea party. All kinds of stuff might be used against
:29:07. > :29:13.you, true and false. In modern armies it is called psychological
:29:14. > :29:18.warfare. It has been around since the Bible. It has been around that
:29:19. > :29:23.long. You cannot object to that. When you pick up the sort you must
:29:24. > :29:30.live by it. This was not the same thing. -- pick up the sword. But
:29:31. > :29:33.what was a distinguished lawyer and circulating these diaries when
:29:34. > :29:43.Casement's they had not been decided. -- when Casement's fate.
:29:44. > :29:49.The winter of the international journalists and all the rest of it.
:29:50. > :29:51.-- the went to. They were accompanied by Cabinet briefings.
:29:52. > :29:56.Something that convinced me these Something that convinced me these
:29:57. > :30:00.were not forged diaries was the very confidential briefings that went to
:30:01. > :30:07.Cabinet in which he describes Casement as somebody, describes the
:30:08. > :30:11.diaries as disgusting beyond belief and said, this is somebody who went
:30:12. > :30:27.from being a pervert to envelop. You have got the whole -- pair of up and
:30:28. > :30:33.envelop. -- from a invert to -- from a pair of Rectory invert. They were
:30:34. > :30:35.British Government have thought was British Government have thought was
:30:36. > :30:44.an enemy of the state unneeded discrediting. The way they were used
:30:45. > :30:49.at that point was wrong. -- and needed discrediting. It is
:30:50. > :30:54.significant that in this year and in this embassy these diaries lay
:30:55. > :31:00.between Britain and Ireland for 100 years. The Irish Nationalists
:31:01. > :31:04.constantly saying these are forged, this is information. The British
:31:05. > :31:10.Government sitting with them any Home Office and not showing them. I
:31:11. > :31:17.think, rather than laying to rest, and I do not been that any literal
:31:18. > :31:23.sense, the 1916 rising the Kurds an independent Irish state emerged and
:31:24. > :31:35.the Casement diaries what a poison. -- and Irish state had emerged. Even
:31:36. > :31:41.the -- they have now been properly published. Could I throw the
:31:42. > :31:46.discussion open for questions. Wait until the microphone has reached you
:31:47. > :31:51.before you ask your question, otherwise we won't pick you up on
:31:52. > :31:55.the TV broadcast. Could I go back to the relationship
:31:56. > :32:00.between anti-imperialism and nationalism? The first world what
:32:01. > :32:04.was an extremely important context and Casement's early publications
:32:05. > :32:10.and anti-recruiting pamphlet in 1905 and anti-recruiting pamphlet in 1905
:32:11. > :32:13.and Irish nationalism in the years leading up to an early part of the
:32:14. > :32:20.First World War was heavily influenced by the wish of people
:32:21. > :32:24.like James Connolly and Casement to save Irish men going to Europe and
:32:25. > :32:28.being slaughtered. The anti-imperialism was an part that
:32:29. > :32:40.they saw imperialism as the cause of the war. That was a strong
:32:41. > :32:44.anti-imperial tone and Casement said -- he said Germany would be a better
:32:45. > :32:51.in South America.