:00:15. > :00:22.I am joined now by the Scottish Labour leader, Kezia Dugdale. Let's
:00:23. > :00:26.start on Manchester and the speech on foreign policy that Jeremy Corbyn
:00:27. > :00:30.made after it. You have said it is perfectly reasonable to ask for an
:00:31. > :00:35.open debate and to have no issues that you cannot talk about. What
:00:36. > :00:41.gave offence was when Jeremy Corbyn said many experts have pointed to
:00:42. > :00:46.the connections between wars our government has supported or fought
:00:47. > :00:49.in other countries such as Libya and terrorism is here at home. It is
:00:50. > :00:54.that implication that somehow we are to blame for what happened in
:00:55. > :00:59.Manchester that has given such offence. Is it a sentiment you would
:01:00. > :01:03.support or would you distance yourself from that? There is only
:01:04. > :01:08.one person to blame and that is the terrorist, the man who decided to
:01:09. > :01:11.strap a suicide bomb to his body at a pop concert, surrounded by
:01:12. > :01:17.hundreds of young teenage girls trying to enjoy a music concert.
:01:18. > :01:20.There is no excuse for that, no explaining it away, he is 100%
:01:21. > :01:26.responsible for those actions. Jeremy Corbyn chose to use the first
:01:27. > :01:31.day of the campaign resuming to make a speech about foreign policy... But
:01:32. > :01:38.that statement direct to you, would you distance yourself from that? He
:01:39. > :01:43.said many experts have pointed to the connections between wars our
:01:44. > :01:48.governments have support or fought in other countries such as Libya and
:01:49. > :01:51.terrorism at home. The implication that has been drawn from art is that
:01:52. > :01:56.Jeremy Corbyn was suggesting we are responsible for what has happened. I
:01:57. > :02:01.don't think he is saying that at all. It is very clear that Jeremy
:02:02. > :02:03.Corbyn and I and everyone across this country recognises the only
:02:04. > :02:09.person that is responsible for what happened in Manchester this week was
:02:10. > :02:12.indeed that terrorist will. What Jeremy did say was that previous
:02:13. > :02:16.decisions around foreign policy have had an impact on the growth of
:02:17. > :02:20.terrorist organisations around the world. Most people would recognise
:02:21. > :02:26.it has had an impact. Nobody is suggesting for a second that that is
:02:27. > :02:36.an excuse for the incident that we have witnessed. It seems to me the
:02:37. > :02:41.Tories are benefiting from the sentiment... Why is it not labour
:02:42. > :02:47.that are -- people are turning to when they don't want independence.
:02:48. > :02:53.That is what people tell me as I travel this country. I am the only
:02:54. > :02:56.leader that has travelled from Stornoway to Lockerbie and
:02:57. > :03:00.everywhere I go, I meet people who are worried about the instability
:03:01. > :03:05.that a second independence referendum would cause and the
:03:06. > :03:07.damage independence would do in the form of additional cuts. I say that
:03:08. > :03:12.we stand firmly against independence... But it is the Tories
:03:13. > :03:18.who are benefiting from that sentiment. You yourself have been
:03:19. > :03:26.ambiguous in this. I do not accept that. You said on this programme but
:03:27. > :03:34.Labour MS please should be free to campaign for independence. I have
:03:35. > :03:39.been absolutely clear... You can be clear now. Would you like to say now
:03:40. > :03:44.that you rather regret some of those statements you made earlier? All I
:03:45. > :03:48.want to say to you is the same thing I have said in every interview in
:03:49. > :03:54.this campaign. I am opposed to independence and a second
:03:55. > :03:59.independence referendum. That is clear-cut. Because of the damage it
:04:00. > :04:08.would make. So when you say MSPs are clear to campaign for independence,
:04:09. > :04:14.that was you misspeaking? I have been clear. You suggested there
:04:15. > :04:18.should be a new act of union. It does not seem to be in your
:04:19. > :04:23.manifesto. It is not your Scottish manifesto. We are talking about a
:04:24. > :04:29.federal solution for the United Kingdom. I am trying to tell you but
:04:30. > :04:36.you keep interrupting me. It allows us to reject the extremes of
:04:37. > :04:39.nationalism and the hard right wing Brexit from the Tories. What I am
:04:40. > :04:44.saying to people is you can oppose independence but you also don't have
:04:45. > :04:47.to accept the status quo, which is why I want to see the vast majority
:04:48. > :04:53.of powers that are coming back to Brussels to the Scottish parliament.
:04:54. > :04:58.The direction of travel is towards a federalised UK. I still don't
:04:59. > :05:05.understand why your own Scottish manifesto doesn't mention the
:05:06. > :05:10.policy. We are committed to the People's Constitutional Convention.
:05:11. > :05:16.I am arguing for Scottish relationship with the rest of
:05:17. > :05:21.Britain. We have not had a similar debate about devolution in England
:05:22. > :05:26.or Wales. That is why those words aren't in the manifesto. It is very
:05:27. > :05:31.clear that we are committed to a People's Constitutional Convention.
:05:32. > :05:36.All those powers coming back to the Scottish Parliament and indeed
:05:37. > :05:39.further powers from Westminster to Holyrood. I will give you an
:05:40. > :05:45.example. Leaving the European Union means an end to the social chapter.
:05:46. > :05:48.Maternity leave, paternity leave, the working week, they are going to
:05:49. > :05:50.be coming back from Brussels and I would like those powers to come to
:05:51. > :05:57.the Scottish parliament so we can make different choices from the
:05:58. > :06:03.Tories. These are very convex issues that are not aided by a snap general
:06:04. > :06:06.election. There is a clear commitment to the presumption of
:06:07. > :06:13.devolution and a radical reformed United Kingdom. The SNP say they
:06:14. > :06:19.want another referendum on independence, that it was in their
:06:20. > :06:26.manifesto in 2016. People don't want another referendum. Are you saying
:06:27. > :06:32.the SNP have no mandate? Are you saying they have no mandate to call
:06:33. > :06:36.another referendum? It is the SNP who told us that the last referendum
:06:37. > :06:42.was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Parties that win
:06:43. > :06:50.elections get to implement what is in their manifesto. The SNP say they
:06:51. > :06:59.have a mandate for another referendum. Are you saying they
:07:00. > :07:03.don't have a mandate for another referendum? I think it is very clear
:07:04. > :07:10.that after the EU referendum, Nicola Sturgeon used Brexit as her excuse
:07:11. > :07:15.to pursue another referendum. I am asking whether you accept they have
:07:16. > :07:20.a mandate. Once again you interrupted me. She said it was the
:07:21. > :07:24.excuse for another independence referendum but the problem the SNP
:07:25. > :07:30.have now is they cannot say whether Scotland gets to stay, whether we
:07:31. > :07:35.will have two reapply. Her whole Mandeep, manifesto commitment has
:07:36. > :07:39.fallen apart because she cannot be clear on Europe. More importantly,
:07:40. > :07:42.the people of Scotland do not want to be dragged back to those
:07:43. > :07:47.arguments of the past. We have to leave her behind. We were told it
:07:48. > :07:52.was once in a generation and that should be respected. That is why I
:07:53. > :08:01.am opposed to independence and a second independence referendum. You
:08:02. > :08:06.still have not answered the question. Are you saying the SNP
:08:07. > :08:13.have no mandate to call another referendum? Yes or no. I don't want
:08:14. > :08:24.a second referendum. I know you don't. The danger you have... You
:08:25. > :08:31.are being anti-democratic. I don't accept that. It is anti-democratic
:08:32. > :08:41.to break the promise he made to the people of Scotland. The SNP have
:08:42. > :08:48.three different positions on Europe but they continue to bang on about
:08:49. > :08:54.independence. That is why so many people are angry at the SNP. Are you
:08:55. > :09:00.just ruling it out? I haven't asked you the question yet. It is annoying
:09:01. > :09:09.when people interrupt you, isn't it, Gordon? Will Labour MPs voted
:09:10. > :09:20.against it? We have been very clear that we are opposed to independence
:09:21. > :09:23.and the hypothetical situation... The Tories would have to accept that
:09:24. > :09:32.there is good to be a referendum. We are a very far cry away from that
:09:33. > :09:35.the reality is our job to do now is to block a referendum in Scotland
:09:36. > :09:40.because the people of Scotland do not want it, neither do they want
:09:41. > :09:45.independence. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell say they want to guarantee
:09:46. > :09:50.there will be no tax hikes to middle and low earners. Why are they wrong?
:09:51. > :09:57.I am not suggesting that they are wrong. Income tax is devolved to the
:09:58. > :10:00.Scottish Parliament, so that is why we have a different position in the
:10:01. > :10:05.Scottish Parliament, in the Scottish Labour Party. The tax proposals that
:10:06. > :10:12.I put forward last year raised ?690 million. That is the amount of money
:10:13. > :10:23.we needed to oppose further cuts to local services. Indeed addressing
:10:24. > :10:26.things like the nurses pay gap. If you take John McDonnell 's tax
:10:27. > :10:33.policies and apply them to Scotland, it would not generate ?690 million.
:10:34. > :10:39.I would not be able to fulfil those commitments to be opposed to Tory
:10:40. > :10:48.austerity and to pay for increases. Because the wealth resides in London
:10:49. > :10:53.and the south-east. So what would your reply beta people on
:10:54. > :11:00.middle-income is in Scotland who say, hang on a minute, we spend 16%
:11:01. > :11:03.per person more on public spending in Scotland? Some of the evidence
:11:04. > :11:09.you have been keen to show a base in public services are doing better in
:11:10. > :11:14.England. Why should we have to pay more basic tax to pay for public
:11:15. > :11:19.services which we are already spending 16% more per person on?
:11:20. > :11:27.Because we have seen ?1.5 billion cut out of our local services. ?1.5
:11:28. > :11:35.billion, we are seeing the stark reality. Our children are being
:11:36. > :11:46.failed by the SNP. Let's look at this in detail. On our income tax
:11:47. > :11:49.proposals,... The equivalent of a Coffey. I am not suggesting that is
:11:50. > :12:02.an insignificant amount but the price of not doing that is increased
:12:03. > :12:07.cuts to our public services. It is holding back our economy not to
:12:08. > :12:11.invest in public services. The Scottish parliament is immensely
:12:12. > :12:16.powerful. It has the power to make different decisions to the Tories.
:12:17. > :12:28.Labour's argument is, if you want to invest, make sure that young
:12:29. > :12:34.people... It is not that simple. As well as a penny on income tax?
:12:35. > :12:40.Income tax is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. We have to do
:12:41. > :12:48.that in Scotland to raise the money we need to stop the cuts from SNP
:12:49. > :12:52.and the Tories. If you are in power and Labour were in power in the UK,
:12:53. > :12:58.they would pay an extra penny on income tax and they would have a
:12:59. > :13:01.lower threshold than the 40p rate. Plus whatever tax rises Jeremy
:13:02. > :13:09.Corbyn decides for people earning over 80,000, plus a 50p rate over
:13:10. > :13:22.150,000? Is what I have said correct? You have to put it into
:13:23. > :13:26.context. There is a real choice at this election. You can reject that
:13:27. > :13:29.programme from the Tories and you can choose Labour instead, investing
:13:30. > :13:42.in public services and helping to grow our economy. Labour is
:13:43. > :13:49.proposing... Is it...? It's not clear in your UK manifesto whether
:13:50. > :14:00.you are... It is abundantly clear. We would also reform it. We are
:14:01. > :14:04.absolutely committed to ending that gap. Kezia Dugdale, we have to leave
:14:05. > :14:25.it there. Thank you very much. We have almost forgotten about that
:14:26. > :14:26.because we have been