0:00:20 > 0:00:23Good evening and welcome to us here at CF99
0:00:23 > 0:00:25for half an hour's debate.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28Tonight, Ieuan Wyn Jones will be talking bluntly
0:00:28 > 0:00:30about the future of his party.
0:00:30 > 0:00:36He says there's no turning back, a firm message to his successor.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Perhaps a warning for one of our guests
0:00:39 > 0:00:43who's being tipped as a candidate for Plaid Cymru's leadership,
0:00:43 > 0:00:45Elin Jones.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49Also here is Paul Davies, temporary leader of the Welsh Conservatives.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Professor Richard Wyn Jones,
0:00:51 > 0:00:55Director of the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University
0:00:55 > 0:00:58joins us from our Glasgow newsroom.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00Welcome to all three of you.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04It's essential to follow the road of expanding the party's appeal,
0:01:04 > 0:01:08in order to secure Plaid Cymru's future according to its leader,
0:01:08 > 0:01:09Ieuan Wyn Jones.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13He will stand within the next two and a half years.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17The message to his successor is that it would be a mistake
0:01:17 > 0:01:18to retreat to their heartlands.
0:01:18 > 0:01:23Earlier I questioned Mr Jones about his decade and more at the helm
0:01:23 > 0:01:26referring firstly to that holiday in France
0:01:26 > 0:01:29and his absence during the Assembly's royal opening.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34Ieuan Wyn Jones, let's start with last week's debacle.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Do you regret missing the royal opening?
0:01:38 > 0:01:42Fir the past 25 years, I've been to every opening
0:01:42 > 0:01:46and present at every event and I felt, for once,
0:01:46 > 0:01:49although I'm disappointed the clash happened,
0:01:49 > 0:01:54but it happened and I felt I should put my family first.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57I made that decision and I don't regret it.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01So in the words of Edith Piaf and Norman Lamont, you have no regrets.
0:02:01 > 0:02:06If you like. They are your words, but there we go.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11Enoch Powell said that every political career ends in failure.
0:02:11 > 0:02:17Does that strike a cord with you? Is that how you feel?
0:02:17 > 0:02:21Not at all. I do feel a lot has been completed
0:02:21 > 0:02:25especially during the last four years
0:02:25 > 0:02:30because that's when, after preparing policies, for 80 years
0:02:30 > 0:02:34the party had the opportunity to implement them.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37I don't think we'd ever have missed the opportunity
0:02:37 > 0:02:41to make sure the party could follow a programme of government
0:02:41 > 0:02:45with the polices we had worked on for so long.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49Compared to what the SNP, Alex Salmond, has accomplished
0:02:49 > 0:02:53Ieuan Wyn Jones's reign hasn't been a sweeping success.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Scotland has always been in the lead,
0:02:55 > 0:03:00the SNP has always had more support in Scotland.
0:03:00 > 0:03:06The whole government mechanism in Scotland has been different
0:03:06 > 0:03:08since the middle of the 19th Century.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11Many things have been different.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15But I still believe that there is an opportunity for the party
0:03:15 > 0:03:19to be a bigger power in Welsh politics than we are now.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24Before we discuss the future and looking back once again,
0:03:24 > 0:03:26you have referred to your time in government,
0:03:26 > 0:03:29- were you a successful minister? - I think I was.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33It's a matter to others to decide if that's true.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35I agree that I accomplished a lot
0:03:35 > 0:03:38and had the opportunity to accomplish a lot.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41I transformed the way the department worked.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44That was needed...
0:03:44 > 0:03:49But that was behind the scenes, and everyone agrees you worked hard
0:03:49 > 0:03:50changing the mechanism.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53With regard to the economy, what did you succeed in doing?
0:03:53 > 0:03:56What you have to remember, and what I learned early on,
0:03:56 > 0:04:01a minister only has a small amount of power to make the big shifts
0:04:01 > 0:04:03which are needed for the economy.
0:04:03 > 0:04:09The Economic Minister has few powers compared with the Chancellor.
0:04:09 > 0:04:15That's where the big power lies in regard to taxes, direction,
0:04:15 > 0:04:16and huge investment.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20There are things you can do as a minister
0:04:20 > 0:04:23and I'm confident that the Welsh economy will become stronger
0:04:23 > 0:04:26due to the different things we did in Government.
0:04:26 > 0:04:31But the big changes won't be able to take place until the Assembly
0:04:31 > 0:04:36- has more powers...- So, politicians here are playing on the sidelines?
0:04:36 > 0:04:39No, they're not playing on the sidelines.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42In other fields we do have proper powers.
0:04:42 > 0:04:48Looking back at your leadership and the more difficult periods.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Going right back to the start when you became leader.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55You were a politician who had a vision for the party,
0:04:55 > 0:04:59you wanted to move it forward. have you accomplished that vision?
0:04:59 > 0:05:02I don't think we accomplished the vision
0:05:02 > 0:05:04but we are on the way to accomplishing it.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06There has been a change in the way
0:05:06 > 0:05:09the party has looked at politics in Wales.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11If you're going to be a political party
0:05:11 > 0:05:16that needs support in Wales, and wanted to increase that support,
0:05:16 > 0:05:23you have to naturally expand your appeal outside your heartlands.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27The party has done that quite successfully in some areas
0:05:27 > 0:05:30but there's still a long way to go.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34That is the message I would want to transfer to anyone
0:05:34 > 0:05:36who leads the party in future,
0:05:36 > 0:05:41we have to remain on that path of expanding the party's appeal.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45We have to make sure we appeal to people outside our heartlands
0:05:45 > 0:05:49and that we are a party that can represent the whole of Wales.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55In 2003, you had to resign as a result of disappointing results.
0:05:55 > 0:06:00There were rumours of plot against you. Did that hurt?
0:06:00 > 0:06:04Naturally, that hurts, but because of that mainly,
0:06:04 > 0:06:08but because there was a feeling of splits within the party.
0:06:08 > 0:06:13But as a leader, you naturally become part of that.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16The type of split that happened in the party in 2003
0:06:16 > 0:06:20hasn't happened this time because the party learned its lessons.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22But to remain with 2003...
0:06:22 > 0:06:25Just to make this point, if you want to move forward
0:06:25 > 0:06:28in order to take the party to the next step
0:06:28 > 0:06:30you can't spend two years arguing.
0:06:30 > 0:06:36You have come through a lot and held on to a marginal seat on Anglesey.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38Where does that determination come from?
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Basically I wanted to do things.
0:06:41 > 0:06:47I've always been a politician who doesn't like huge symbols,
0:06:47 > 0:06:52who has a big rhetoric, but one who wants to do things.
0:06:52 > 0:06:57When I came into politics, I wanted to think that when I left it
0:06:57 > 0:07:01that I'd accomplished something.
0:07:01 > 0:07:07I was determined to deliver something to Wales and the party.
0:07:07 > 0:07:12You've now decided that it's time to leave the stage, as it were,
0:07:12 > 0:07:13as leader.
0:07:13 > 0:07:18Was that a difficult and sad decision for you?
0:07:18 > 0:07:20Not really.
0:07:20 > 0:07:26My intention would have been to stand down this term anyway.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28Whatever would have happened.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32The likelihood is that I announced that earlier than expected.
0:07:32 > 0:07:37But as for standing down as leader I didn't see myself
0:07:37 > 0:07:41leading the party into the 2015 election,
0:07:41 > 0:07:452016 now with that extra year.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47I didn't see that happening.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51I was going to transfer power at some point
0:07:51 > 0:07:55and the fact it happened earlier than expected, there we go.
0:07:55 > 0:08:00Yet, you say you're going some time during the first half of this term.
0:08:00 > 0:08:06Doesn't that leave the party in some sort of limbo?
0:08:06 > 0:08:09A decision is needed, a date is needed.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13The big problem with that is that's what we did in 2003
0:08:13 > 0:08:14and we landed in a huge hole.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16I don't' want to return to that.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18One of things I was told,
0:08:18 > 0:08:23because you discuss these things with friends within the party,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and one thing that was mentioned clearly to me
0:08:26 > 0:08:29was that I wasn't to do what happened in 2003,
0:08:29 > 0:08:32to try and transfer the reigns straight away.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36The party needs to seriously consider its future.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40What that means is that a review will be held
0:08:40 > 0:08:43and I've said I will fit in with that review.
0:08:43 > 0:08:48When people feel that work has been completed, I will naturally...
0:08:48 > 0:08:50So this isn't your personal decision?
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Not at all.
0:08:52 > 0:08:57I've come to the conclusion it would be daft stand down immediately.
0:08:57 > 0:09:05But it was also a consensus within the party and I'm happy with that.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07I think it is a sensible thing to do.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10A political party should sit down after an election
0:09:10 > 0:09:12and decide the way it wants to take.
0:09:12 > 0:09:18I hope that party will accept this, although I feel Plaid Cymru
0:09:18 > 0:09:22has to have the ambition of being in government,
0:09:22 > 0:09:26that doesn't mean we have to be in government every term.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Before we turn to that, just to be clear, the party has asked you
0:09:29 > 0:09:35to stay and take care of the shop before the cleaning takes place
0:09:35 > 0:09:43- while you look at yourself...- No... - A post mortem, if you like.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47I don't like that description.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50What you are doing is see how you can expand your appeal.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54In order to that you have to talk to people outside the party.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58But shouldn't there be a race for the leadership
0:09:58 > 0:10:00in order to have that discussion?
0:10:00 > 0:10:04Once I've stood down, everyone's free to say what they like.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07But the discussion won't start until you've gone.
0:10:07 > 0:10:13What I'm trying to say is there is an element
0:10:13 > 0:10:16of looking at the leader as the only thing that's counts in a party.
0:10:16 > 0:10:20That's not true. The leader has to have a party to lead.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23He has to have the machine, he has to have policies,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26he has to have a good communications system.
0:10:26 > 0:10:32You have to have the basics in place for any new leader.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37If that doesn't happen, the party won't be able to move on.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41I don't expect you to name your successor today,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45but will there be a good choice in this race?
0:10:45 > 0:10:51Will there be a choice of Ieuan Wyn Jones's direction
0:10:51 > 0:10:56or maybe going back to the more familiar areas?
0:10:56 > 0:11:00Do you see the debate developing?
0:11:00 > 0:11:03I'm not sure. Until people put their names forward,
0:11:03 > 0:11:06we're not sure what their agendas will be.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11I am hoping the party will realise it can only go in one direction
0:11:11 > 0:11:12and that's to expand its appeal
0:11:12 > 0:11:15and make sure it continues as a government party.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19I think the party's viewpoint on the government spectrum is clear.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23I don't think that will change, you have to be to the left.
0:11:23 > 0:11:31Many are saying maybe it is the time to say independence is the next step.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33It was something you were eager to hide.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36If you look at what Alex Salmond has done in Scotland
0:11:36 > 0:11:40maybe hiding independence as a goal was a mistake?
0:11:40 > 0:11:43I'm not sure what you mean by 'hiding independence'?
0:11:43 > 0:11:47That's been part of the party's policy since 2003.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49It's been in every manifesto since 2003
0:11:49 > 0:11:52and there have been many discussions.
0:11:52 > 0:11:53But it was never a priority?
0:11:53 > 0:11:56The reality is, we might as well be honest about it,
0:11:56 > 0:12:00Wales's constitutional development must follow a different path
0:12:00 > 0:12:03from Scotland's and everyone accepts that.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07Anyone who thinks independence will happen in five year's time,
0:12:07 > 0:12:09it's not going to happen in five year's time.
0:12:09 > 0:12:10It's going to take time.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13The people of Wales have to be comfortable
0:12:13 > 0:12:15with the steps we are taking.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17We have taken an important step
0:12:17 > 0:12:21that wouldn't have happened without Plaid Cymru in government.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23That was the referendum on law making powers.
0:12:23 > 0:12:29I think Labour's vision for the next step in Wales is weak.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31What's your vision?
0:12:31 > 0:12:34Without doubt, it's having new finance powers,
0:12:34 > 0:12:39new taxing laws, as well borrowing powers.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42Wales will only go forward with that.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45As well as crowing for independence a bit more as a party?
0:12:45 > 0:12:47That's for the new leader to decide.
0:12:47 > 0:12:53But Plaid Cymru can't feel the only way it can move forward
0:12:53 > 0:12:55is to talk about constitutional affairs.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59We have to have practical answers to people's lives.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03If you had to write a letter to your successor
0:13:03 > 0:13:07giving some advice, what would your message be?
0:13:07 > 0:13:10What would your warnings be about the dangers?
0:13:10 > 0:13:12There are always pitfalls.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15The Labour Party in London is going through this right now,
0:13:15 > 0:13:20when you return to what you think is your core message.
0:13:20 > 0:13:25The reality is, you can't win an election on a core message.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29You have to appeal beyond that to your tradition supporters
0:13:29 > 0:13:31in order to win any election.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33Wales needs a party which has vision.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36And a coalition as soon as possible?
0:13:36 > 0:13:37I wouldn't say as soon as possible.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40The other thing I want to say is,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43you don't have to be in government every time.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46There are times when a party has to revive itself.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50How would you like your leadership to be remembered?
0:13:50 > 0:13:56Hopefully, as someone who has led Plaid Cymru into government
0:13:56 > 0:14:01and had delivered something that was important to us as a nation,
0:14:01 > 0:14:04to have a real parliament for Wales.
0:14:04 > 0:14:09Ieuan Wyn Jones. Richard Wyn Jones, we start with the Anglesey Joneses.
0:14:09 > 0:14:16Is what Plaid Cymru's facing now an existential crisis
0:14:16 > 0:14:19or just a process that any party faces after a disappointing result?
0:14:19 > 0:14:23I can be very academic and say somewhere in the middle.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27It isn't a huge crisis in the fact
0:14:27 > 0:14:31the party's future hangs in the balance.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33In many ways, the party is very healthy.
0:14:33 > 0:14:39I don't think they've lost many members during the time
0:14:39 > 0:14:42they were in government which was a feat for a party
0:14:42 > 0:14:45that went into government for the first time.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47They are still financially healthy.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50They have young, talented people joining the ranks.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53But I think the referendum closed a chapter.;
0:14:53 > 0:14:59What we've seen over the last decade is Welsh politics
0:14:59 > 0:15:01slowly moving to Plaid Cymru's direction.
0:15:01 > 0:15:06Everyone now is a Welsh nationalist with a lower case 'n'.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10If you read the election manifestos,
0:15:10 > 0:15:15the Tories wanted to go much further with constitutional changes,
0:15:15 > 0:15:18as well as the Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21Even Labour, despite being the most conservative,
0:15:21 > 0:15:24also wanted to go further.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28The other parties have responded to Plaid Cymru's success in 1999
0:15:28 > 0:15:31by being more similar to the party.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33What's Plaid Cymru's purpose now?
0:15:33 > 0:15:38Is that the problem now? The electorate believe that Plaid Cymru
0:15:38 > 0:15:41has completed its job?
0:15:41 > 0:15:47In a way Plaid Cymru has to decide that.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49What's become apparent over the last few days
0:15:49 > 0:15:52is if you analyse what's being said in the media
0:15:52 > 0:15:56by different Plaid Cymru commentators or spokespeople,
0:15:56 > 0:16:00a new narrative has started to appear.
0:16:00 > 0:16:07It focuses on economic growth and I think they'll make that a priority.
0:16:07 > 0:16:12Once you look at Wales's economic situation it is quite depressing
0:16:12 > 0:16:14to say they least.
0:16:14 > 0:16:19I think that's the direction that goes back to the roots
0:16:19 > 0:16:23of an economic plan drawn up by Dafydd Wigley and Eurfyl ap Gwilym
0:16:23 > 0:16:25back in the 1960s.
0:16:25 > 0:16:29I think that's the type of direction that's starting to appear
0:16:29 > 0:16:35although it's early days considering the review Ieuan Wyn mentioned.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38Elin Jones, we also discussed the purpose of Plaid Cymru
0:16:38 > 0:16:40this morning with Ieuan Wyn Jones.
0:16:40 > 0:16:45He said that, "We are a Welsh party, the other parties are from London."
0:16:45 > 0:16:49You also made that point in the Western Mail.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52But it's an old argument. The other parties have moved.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56Paul's party is now more "Welsh", the Labour Party is more "Welsh".
0:16:56 > 0:17:01Does that argument about being Welsh, your USP,
0:17:01 > 0:17:03does it stand up today?
0:17:03 > 0:17:07Well, it's obvious Plaid Cymru is the only party
0:17:07 > 0:17:11that focuses on Wales and takes its values from the people of Wales,
0:17:11 > 0:17:14without an HQ in London and so on.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18It's an obvious point to make, but it remains important.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23I don't feel I'm in a crisis, as a Plaid Cymru member.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26I think the description from Richard Wyn Jones
0:17:26 > 0:17:29was a better description of how I feel right now,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32that we're coming to the end of a chapter
0:17:32 > 0:17:36and there's now an opportunity to start the next chapter.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38What is that chapter?
0:17:38 > 0:17:44What we need to do as a party, and Ieuan has put this in context...
0:17:44 > 0:17:50We need to take this step of looking
0:17:50 > 0:17:55to see what are the next steps for us as a country and as a party
0:17:55 > 0:17:59to strengthen our nation, to strengthen our nation economically,
0:17:59 > 0:18:03to make the case for more self-government,
0:18:03 > 0:18:06further devolution of powers...
0:18:06 > 0:18:09On that constitutional path, what is the next goal?
0:18:09 > 0:18:14More economic power, as far as taxes or independence?
0:18:14 > 0:18:19Going for it and starting to talk openly about independence,
0:18:19 > 0:18:22as Adam Price suggested this morning.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25Plaid Cymru is very comfortable
0:18:25 > 0:18:28with our constitutional aim,
0:18:28 > 0:18:32that we want an independent Wales within the European Union.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35But the people of Wales will decide that.
0:18:35 > 0:18:39Plaid Cymru's responsibility is to make the case for that.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43At the moment, I'm a fairly realistic politician,
0:18:43 > 0:18:47the people of Wales on the whole do not support independence right now,
0:18:47 > 0:18:50so we have a responsibility...
0:18:50 > 0:18:55But shouldn't you start persuading them to support that?
0:18:55 > 0:18:57The argument has not been put forward.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00That is the exact point I am making.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03This next chapter, this is Plaid Cymru's role,
0:19:03 > 0:19:08to build the nation, to put forward the case for more self-government,
0:19:08 > 0:19:13that would eventually lead to independence.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16I don't think that will shock anyone,
0:19:16 > 0:19:19that will be the next chapter for Plaid Cymru.
0:19:19 > 0:19:24Paul Davies, your party is going through a leadership race
0:19:24 > 0:19:27and yet to some extent, it is a cleaner race.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Nick Bourne has gone, straightaway, he has lost his seat
0:19:31 > 0:19:34due to your party's success.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38Does that make the race and the internal debate, if you like,
0:19:38 > 0:19:42a little easier, rather than the leader still being there?
0:19:42 > 0:19:43Maybe it does,
0:19:43 > 0:19:49as Nick unfortunately lost his seat in the Assembly election,
0:19:49 > 0:19:53but we are going through this race.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56I think we have moved quickly
0:19:56 > 0:20:00in order to choose a new leader for the group in the Assembly.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04And the race will be over in around a month.
0:20:04 > 0:20:10Is there a danger you could return to that comfortable habitat,
0:20:10 > 0:20:12while looking for a new person?
0:20:12 > 0:20:17Not at all. I think that the two candidates that we have
0:20:17 > 0:20:22want to ensure that we expand beyond our traditional support
0:20:22 > 0:20:27and that is what Nick or Andrew will be doing,
0:20:27 > 0:20:31whichever one becomes leader, of course.
0:20:31 > 0:20:36Richard, there is a problem for any party in this country,
0:20:36 > 0:20:39or if you look at foreign countries,
0:20:39 > 0:20:44that the party members' opinion differs to public opinion.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47That is one thing I wanted to say.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52I think there was an assumption in some of Bethan's questions
0:20:52 > 0:20:57that having a leadership battle was cleaner and more honourable
0:20:57 > 0:20:58and more effective.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02If you look at recent British political history,
0:21:02 > 0:21:05I don't think you can maintain that argument.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09If you look at the Labour leadership contest to succeed Gordon Brown,
0:21:09 > 0:21:12I don't think that has settled anything,
0:21:12 > 0:21:19in the same way the Conservatives chose a series of leaders
0:21:19 > 0:21:23after Major, without settling anything.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27What Plaid Cymru is doing is a little different
0:21:27 > 0:21:31and is maybe braver, in the sense that they will have
0:21:31 > 0:21:34this debate on their direction.
0:21:34 > 0:21:39I'm sorry to be a bit boring regarding Plaid Cymru's history,
0:21:39 > 0:21:42but if you go back to the start of the '80s,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46there was a process of being very self-critical
0:21:46 > 0:21:52and I think that taking the process away from the personalities
0:21:52 > 0:21:56can be a wise move for a party.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00I'm not sure that just having a quick contest
0:22:00 > 0:22:04involving maybe Elin Jones and whoever would settle anything.
0:22:04 > 0:22:09But Paul, if you listen carefully, you have to listen carefully,
0:22:09 > 0:22:14to the two candidates in the race, there are differences between them.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17They are polite to each other, but there are differences.
0:22:17 > 0:22:22One talks about a more pioneering and more Welsh politics,
0:22:22 > 0:22:26more or less portraying himself as the successor to Bourne's vision,
0:22:26 > 0:22:30with the other slightly different - concentrating more on unity.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34So there is an internal debate within your party.
0:22:34 > 0:22:39I don't think there is that much to differentiate the candidates.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42There may be a difference in style.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46I think that's what the contest will come down to.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50But I think it is healthy that we have a contest.
0:22:50 > 0:22:55I think it's healthy within a democratic party to have a contest.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59But if it is a contest only on personality,
0:22:59 > 0:23:03rather than vision, doesn't that contest become irrelevant,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06where one candidate is saying, "I'm a family man,"
0:23:06 > 0:23:11and the other saying, "I'm the voice of the future, the voice of youth."
0:23:11 > 0:23:14You have a kind of Miss Wales contest!
0:23:14 > 0:23:18But I don't think there is that much of a difference
0:23:18 > 0:23:21as far as policy between the two candidates,
0:23:21 > 0:23:26so our members will then have to look at their style
0:23:26 > 0:23:31and who they believe can reach beyond our traditional support.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33Elin Jones, are you going for it?
0:23:33 > 0:23:36To lead the Tory Party? No! I have no interest in that!
0:23:36 > 0:23:38Closer to home?
0:23:38 > 0:23:42Well, the timetable will become a lot clearer...
0:23:42 > 0:23:45The timetable will become clearer at some point
0:23:45 > 0:23:47and I'll have to make a decision.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50One quick question. Time is short.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52Is Adam Price going to be a problem,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55in the sense that you have prince there,
0:23:55 > 0:23:59and any leader that is chosen will be seen as temporary?
0:23:59 > 0:24:03I don't think any party would describe Adam Price
0:24:03 > 0:24:05as a problem for that party.
0:24:05 > 0:24:10Having someone like Adam Price as an external commentator
0:24:10 > 0:24:15on the membership is an important contribution
0:24:15 > 0:24:17for Plaid Cymru and for politics.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21I think any party should be grateful for someone like Adam Price.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25We're lucky in Plaid Cymru that he's with us.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28Thank you. We'll get the answer out of you at some point.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31Thank you. That's all for tonight.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35- We'll be back at the same time next week.- Until then, goodnight.