0:00:20 > 0:00:23Hello and welcome to CF99.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27We will be discussing student fees, a warning from a scholar
0:00:27 > 0:00:31that the Assembly will have to reconsider its policy.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33And a temporary saviour for the badger.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37Does that leave the Government and farmers in a hole?
0:00:37 > 0:00:41How should Wales be financed in future?
0:00:41 > 0:00:46We are joined by Plaid Cymru's AM Alun Ffred Jones,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Keith Davies from the Labour Party.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Tomos Dafydd from Aberystwyth University's
0:00:51 > 0:00:54Institute of Welsh Politics is also here.
0:00:54 > 0:01:00Who would be the favourite in a row? The politician or the scholar?
0:01:00 > 0:01:05In the row over student fees, Wales' most prominent scholars
0:01:05 > 0:01:09are raising questions about the Assembly's policy on tuition fees.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12The Government promised to pay grants to students from Wales
0:01:12 > 0:01:19which would mean that they won't have to pay more than £3400 for a course.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Will that be sufficient in the long term?
0:01:23 > 0:01:26Owain Clark has been asking Professor Merfyn Jones about the fees,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31the fighting, and his new post as the chairman
0:01:31 > 0:01:34of the National College of Wales.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40It's apparent that there are problems
0:01:40 > 0:01:47in how we maintain this level of activity in higher education.
0:01:47 > 0:01:53The Assembly Government and the Minister
0:01:53 > 0:01:58has proposed a very different plan to England.
0:01:58 > 0:02:04But the situation is being heavily influence by events in England.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08It's obvious in my mind that this system in England
0:02:08 > 0:02:11has been in place for a few years.
0:02:11 > 0:02:16At some point, we will have to reconsider.
0:02:21 > 0:02:26Can you understand why universities have said that they would
0:02:26 > 0:02:29even if Leighton Andrews doesn't want them to raise the highest fees.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33Why have they decided to do that? They are looking after number one.
0:02:33 > 0:02:39I believe there is an element of 'We're as good as the next person.'
0:02:39 > 0:02:45So, if Oxford charges £9000, then why can't we?
0:02:45 > 0:02:51Because this idea that if they don't ask for £9000,
0:02:51 > 0:02:56people may think that the standard won't be as high.
0:02:56 > 0:03:01Many universities have this notion, I know a lot will deny this,
0:03:01 > 0:03:04but there is a business element in running an university.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06Is there bad feeling between the universities?
0:03:06 > 0:03:12I think that arguing is in the nature of universities.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15It's also in the nature of politicians.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17So, we shouldn't be surprised.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19In a mature political culture,
0:03:19 > 0:03:25we should be able to get a good argument, if needed.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33The aim is that the new Welsh National College
0:03:33 > 0:03:38will start over the summer.
0:03:38 > 0:03:43We have offered scholarships and fellowships.
0:03:43 > 0:03:48But I believe that the most amazing thing about all of this
0:03:48 > 0:03:52is that we can finance jobs.
0:03:52 > 0:03:58The challenge is that we have to make sure that we recruit staff
0:03:58 > 0:04:00and recruit students.
0:04:00 > 0:04:05Are you confident the money will always be there
0:04:05 > 0:04:09to finance this new venture?
0:04:09 > 0:04:13I am very confident that there will be support for this.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16There is dedication to this project.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20Welsh-medium higher education does work.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23There will be provision. We have targets, of course
0:04:23 > 0:04:26and we have to increase the number of students who speak Welsh.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29But there is further vision
0:04:29 > 0:04:33which will inspires some of us.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38We need to ensure that the Welsh language will be available
0:04:38 > 0:04:41to hold talks in future.
0:04:41 > 0:04:46The media does this now whereas in the past, it was the chapels.
0:04:46 > 0:04:51I believe that it's important to the language that we can produce people
0:04:51 > 0:04:56who can discuss properly and wisely through the medium of Welsh.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00It's not an academic issue. It's more important than that.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02If we want to have a complete language,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05we need this project to work.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10Keith Davies. Everyone understands Leighton Andrews' motive.
0:05:10 > 0:05:15They are good motives. But he would also acknowledge
0:05:15 > 0:05:21that this financing will only last for a few years.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Is there a long term system
0:05:24 > 0:05:29or is this just a temporary system?
0:05:29 > 0:05:31From what I can gather,
0:05:31 > 0:05:36this will be financed by students coming in from England.
0:05:36 > 0:05:42English students will contribute around £9000 in tuition fees
0:05:42 > 0:05:44to come to Welsh universities.
0:05:44 > 0:05:50Then, the Assembly will use that money to finance Welsh students
0:05:50 > 0:05:52that will go to English universities.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56I'm not sure how long that can last for.
0:05:56 > 0:06:01The problem is that if I was an English student,
0:06:01 > 0:06:09going to a Welsh university and found that the person next to me
0:06:09 > 0:06:15paid £6000 less than me, because I was paying £9000,
0:06:15 > 0:06:18I would feel that it would be unfair.
0:06:18 > 0:06:23This could mean that fewer students from England come here.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25The sums won't add up.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30More and more students want to go to university and so it's competitive.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33There was more competition this year than last year.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35I don't see that happening.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39What those students should do is go after the Tories in London.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43Scotland is even better than us. There are no fees in Scotland.
0:06:43 > 0:06:49We, are around £3000. But they should fight their own corner.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54Alun Ffred Jones, this does depend on students from England
0:06:54 > 0:07:00and other parts of the world, this is a bit risky, isn't it?
0:07:00 > 0:07:05But under this formula, a lot of money goes to universities
0:07:05 > 0:07:11beyond Wales, following the Welsh students studying outside Wales.
0:07:11 > 0:07:17it's estimated around £50m. Is this sensible spending?
0:07:17 > 0:07:21When the scheme was agreed, and I was part of the scheme,
0:07:21 > 0:07:28which I am proud because it's disgraceful that English students
0:07:28 > 0:07:31will leave university with debts of £30,000.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35I think it's bonkers. I think this is the right decision.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38There are concerns.
0:07:38 > 0:07:46If Merfyn Jones raises doubts, Merfyn Jones is a Labour supporter,
0:07:46 > 0:07:49and that isn't a accusation. There are doubts.
0:07:49 > 0:07:54We have heard that said by head teachers.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58Even though you can say that headteachers look after themselves,
0:07:58 > 0:08:03paying students to study outside Wales
0:08:03 > 0:08:06is a complex issue.
0:08:06 > 0:08:12Imagine if you pay for a student to study outside Wales
0:08:12 > 0:08:16with fees of £9000, whilst you have restrict Welsh fees to £7000,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19there is something odd about that.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23You are willing to pay those studying outside Wales
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and pay students who are studying in Wales, less!
0:08:26 > 0:08:28Is that sustainable?
0:08:28 > 0:08:32As a minister, Leighton says that it is sustainable.
0:08:32 > 0:08:37But I believe that there are lots of doubts surrounding it.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39Do you think it's sustainable, Tomos?
0:08:39 > 0:08:44What worries me most is that we are urging our prospective students
0:08:44 > 0:08:47to go to England to study.
0:08:47 > 0:08:52We should be urging our students to venture to the best universities
0:08:52 > 0:08:54whether in England or beyond.
0:08:54 > 0:08:59As far as I can see, this is less than a subsidy from the Assembly
0:08:59 > 0:09:01to urge the prospective student to study in England.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06But if £3400 they are paying wherever they go,
0:09:06 > 0:09:10I might as well go to Cambridge instead of Glamorgan University.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13The Assembly's Education Minister's main responsibility
0:09:13 > 0:09:18should be to urge and build higher education here in Wales
0:09:18 > 0:09:20and not subsidise English universities.
0:09:20 > 0:09:26Prospective students should be urged to venture and go to universities
0:09:26 > 0:09:28whether in England or beyond.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Leighton Andrews' main responsibilityis to develop
0:09:31 > 0:09:33this sector in Wales.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36What about this inclination by the Finance Council,
0:09:36 > 0:09:40who have told the Assembly to go and reconsider
0:09:40 > 0:09:44and not to raise £9000 in fees because changes have to be made.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48but Leighton Andrews also believes that this is too much.
0:09:48 > 0:09:53Does he want universities to appear secondary in Wales?
0:09:54 > 0:09:57I don't know what the situation is in England.
0:09:57 > 0:10:02My son is doing his A-levels and his first choice is London,
0:10:02 > 0:10:05the Imperial, his second choice is Swansea.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09He's choosing to go to London because of the course.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12When I read about these new fees months ago,
0:10:12 > 0:10:17it was Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial - £9,000,
0:10:17 > 0:10:21but they didn't mention the other colleges in England charging that.
0:10:21 > 0:10:27- So we don't know the situation yet. - The English average is around £8,000
0:10:27 > 0:10:31and I've heard that the average in Wales will be just over £7,000.
0:10:31 > 0:10:36You're still paying more for someone leaving Wales, which sounds odd.
0:10:36 > 0:10:41Let's quickly look at the Welsh College.
0:10:41 > 0:10:46How confident are you, Ffred, that these ambitious targets
0:10:46 > 0:10:49- will be met?- I'm very confident.
0:10:49 > 0:10:54And I was pleased to hear Merfyn Jones
0:10:54 > 0:10:58saying that this was more than just preparing courses,
0:10:58 > 0:11:03- that this was an ambitious project and...- He opposed the idea.
0:11:03 > 0:11:08He did oppose it in the past, the idea of a federal college anyway,
0:11:08 > 0:11:13but to hear him talking... For me, establishing the national college
0:11:13 > 0:11:18is one of the things that we can be proud of in the One Wales Government
0:11:18 > 0:11:25But, Tomos, with the university budgets being so tight at the moment,
0:11:25 > 0:11:30and the problem of fees, is it time for another layer of bureaucracy?
0:11:30 > 0:11:34Wouldn't it be possible for the colleges to cooperate
0:11:34 > 0:11:39without creating another college, with all the staff and jobs?
0:11:39 > 0:11:43I received my higher education in Wales through the medium of Welsh
0:11:43 > 0:11:49and I can say right now that the Welsh provision in university
0:11:49 > 0:11:54was sparse at best. There was a lack of long-term strategy and vision
0:11:54 > 0:11:59to plan and expand the Welsh provision at Welsh universities.
0:11:59 > 0:12:05It's good to see the Welsh National College coming to fruition.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09I think there is scope to expand the Welsh provision
0:12:09 > 0:12:11and that is to be welcomed.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14Do you have confidence in Merfyn Jones to do this?
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Some people were surprised at his appointment.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20It as a surprising appointment,
0:12:20 > 0:12:24as he had voiced concerns about these plans in the past,
0:12:24 > 0:12:28but it is a pioneering and ambitious scheme
0:12:28 > 0:12:31that I think will lay strong foundations
0:12:31 > 0:12:34to develop Welsh provision at universities.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37Environment Minister John Griffiths has confirmed
0:12:37 > 0:12:41plans to cull badgers in Pembrokeshire
0:12:41 > 0:12:44will not be going ahead, for the time being at least.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47A panel of experts will review the scientific evidence
0:12:47 > 0:12:51relating to TB in cattle and badgers.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53The decision has led to strong feelings
0:12:53 > 0:12:56on both sides of the argument.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59I'm very pleased.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03I do feel for the farmers and the situation
0:13:03 > 0:13:08and I understand that not everyone will be happy with this decision.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10But I'm pleased.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13Well, we need to look at everything,
0:13:13 > 0:13:17but it's quite obvious that the badgers are spreading the TB.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20So I'm quite disappointed.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24They're too worried about the Badger Trust and people like that think,
0:13:24 > 0:13:26legal challenges.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28If they want to...
0:13:28 > 0:13:33If they really are serious about sorting it out properly,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36there needs to be some sort of cull.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40The people in charge in Cardiff now, they don't understand.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42That's the problem.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47Keith Davies, your former coalition partners, Plaid Cymru,
0:13:47 > 0:13:51have described this as betrayal. Why have you changed your mind?
0:13:51 > 0:13:56Well, if you look at our manifesto, it's clear in the manifesto
0:13:56 > 0:14:00that we want to ask the scientists for an answer,
0:14:00 > 0:14:04to look at what's happening across the world and come back.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08- We're not saying...- Well, why was the decision made in the coalition?
0:14:08 > 0:14:11- I wasn't there at the time. - Not you personally, your party.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16I don't know. All I know is that I was campaigning on the manifesto
0:14:16 > 0:14:21and in the manifesto, it says clearly that we're going to get
0:14:21 > 0:14:24a panel of scientists to look at the situation
0:14:24 > 0:14:29to decide what is the best way to eradicate the problem we have.
0:14:29 > 0:14:36Your Chief Vet, the vets of Wales have clearly stated
0:14:36 > 0:14:39that this is a scheme... No-one knows if it will work 100%,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42but this is a pioneering scheme.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46How many panels do you want to form to come to the conclusion...?
0:14:46 > 0:14:50The truth is the Labour Party has already made a decision
0:14:50 > 0:14:53because John Griffiths was asked... If this panel comes back
0:14:53 > 0:14:57and says they are in favour of a badger cull in this area,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00would he stick to that - he would not answer.
0:15:00 > 0:15:07But, Ffred, to be fair, the Assembly's scientific adviser
0:15:07 > 0:15:11will choose the members of the panel, they will be scientists,
0:15:11 > 0:15:13they could come back and say that
0:15:13 > 0:15:17and it would be embarrassing for John Griffiths if he ignored
0:15:17 > 0:15:19the advice of the panel.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23Isn't it reasonable for a new government, that's what this is...
0:15:23 > 0:15:27How many inquiry's do you want? This place has already held two.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31I was part of the first and we had experts from across the UK
0:15:31 > 0:15:34and beyond, we were in Ireland,
0:15:34 > 0:15:37and of course, you won't get every expert to agree...
0:15:37 > 0:15:41In fact, they disagreed with each other. That's the nature of it.
0:15:41 > 0:15:47But the Agriculture Minister said we would have a venturesome scheme
0:15:47 > 0:15:52and what happened? Nothing. And I foresee that happening again.
0:15:52 > 0:15:56But you have the votes. Labour has 30 seats,
0:15:56 > 0:16:00this is a subject on which the opposition parties are united.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05It depends if it goes to a vote. I don't know if they have to.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09They could keep the legislation in place but not do anything.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13Tomos, as a commentator, watching this if you like,
0:16:13 > 0:16:18the Westminster Government is getting cold feet
0:16:18 > 0:16:20regarding a similar scheme.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24Is there a suggestion here that Carwyn Jones is looking to London -
0:16:24 > 0:16:28if they reconsider, then maybe we should do the same?
0:16:28 > 0:16:32It's possible, but I feel it's a remarkable U-turn.
0:16:32 > 0:16:3790 days ago, the government approved this policy.
0:16:37 > 0:16:42As far as I see, nothing has changed regarding scientific evidence
0:16:42 > 0:16:45to persuade the government to change direction.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49What has happened is the government. There's been an election.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53- The promise was in the manifesto. - The political dynamic has changed.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56And I think Keith Davies must acknowledge
0:16:56 > 0:16:59that apart from Llanelli,
0:16:59 > 0:17:03Labour has little presence in mid and west Wales.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07So there was no political capital to lose in reforming this policy.
0:17:07 > 0:17:13I think the image that the agricultural community has
0:17:13 > 0:17:16is that this is an M4 Corridor government.
0:17:16 > 0:17:22The agriculture post is basically now a part-time post,
0:17:22 > 0:17:25a deputy minister and this is another chapter
0:17:25 > 0:17:29which adds to that image - this is an urban government
0:17:29 > 0:17:32that does not care about rural Wales.
0:17:32 > 0:17:37On Monday afternoon... He has retired now.
0:17:37 > 0:17:42He was the chief scientist for Welsh Water. He came to my office.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45He gave me a list of six questions
0:17:45 > 0:17:49that he had put before the Assembly before the election
0:17:49 > 0:17:51and he had not received an answer.
0:17:51 > 0:17:55One of the things that he said - if you go with this pilot now,
0:17:55 > 0:18:00or you cull badgers and keep cattle in one spot,
0:18:00 > 0:18:06how would the minister differentiate statistically and scientifically
0:18:06 > 0:18:09between the two effects? Which was the best?
0:18:09 > 0:18:13He didn't get an answer. The scientists are not in agreement.
0:18:13 > 0:18:18And the second thing is, there is another way of looking at it,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21and that is vaccinating animals.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26You can't vaccinate the badgers that already have TB.
0:18:26 > 0:18:31- No.- Well, there we are. That stays with the badgers.
0:18:31 > 0:18:38Look, you have the Chief Vet who is a good scientist
0:18:38 > 0:18:42and she designed this scheme
0:18:42 > 0:18:46and you're not listening to her because you have other priorities.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49But aren't you merely listening to the people.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53A recent opinion poll carried out by the BBC
0:18:53 > 0:18:56says two-thirds of people don't want a cull.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00- Are you worried about that?- No. Let me tell you the second point -
0:19:00 > 0:19:05In the Republic of Ireland, where they have been culling badgers,
0:19:05 > 0:19:10over the past four years, they have culled 80,000 of them,
0:19:10 > 0:19:13and the TB cases have increased.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17In Northern Ireland, they've done nothing,
0:19:17 > 0:19:20except look after the cattle and not move them around
0:19:20 > 0:19:23- and it has fallen. - You're over-simplifying.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27Unfortunately, we must move on to another subject.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30In a month's time, the Westminster coalition
0:19:30 > 0:19:33is expected to announce the details of the commission
0:19:33 > 0:19:35to look at how Wales is to be funded.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Yesterday, the First Minister outlined his shopping list,
0:19:39 > 0:19:42looking once more at the Barnett Formula,
0:19:42 > 0:19:45which decides how much Wales receives,
0:19:45 > 0:19:49and certain tax raising powers, such as stamp duty.
0:19:49 > 0:19:54Well, Tomos, it is quite a conservative shopping list.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58How important is that he gets these extra powers?
0:19:58 > 0:20:03It would be extremely significant and would transform politics here.
0:20:03 > 0:20:08Carwyn is keen to devolve these minor taxes, if you like,
0:20:08 > 0:20:10but is possible not as ambitious
0:20:10 > 0:20:14when it comes to devolving corporation tax, for example,
0:20:14 > 0:20:20which would a real effect in transforming the Welsh economy.
0:20:20 > 0:20:25What's also interesting is that we traditionally think of Labour
0:20:25 > 0:20:30as a tax raising party, but the only reason to have the stamp duty powers
0:20:30 > 0:20:34or travel tax at airports is to cut them,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38to give Cardiff Airport some kind of competitive advantage.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41Yes, but we haven't heard many details so far.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45We've heard a lot over recent weeks over devolving these powers.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48I think there is a parallel with March's referendum.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51There were arguments for devolving more powers,
0:20:51 > 0:20:55but there were not many details on how that would be used in practice.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58The challenge for Carwyn and the Government
0:20:58 > 0:21:02is to expand on how the financial powers will be used
0:21:02 > 0:21:04too boost the economy in the long-term.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07Keith Davies, why is there a lack of ambition
0:21:07 > 0:21:12regarding devolving financial matters?
0:21:12 > 0:21:15Why not go for income tax, for example?
0:21:15 > 0:21:19There are more powers, why not the responsibility too?
0:21:19 > 0:21:23I'm not sure about that. I can answer corporation tax...
0:21:23 > 0:21:26You're not sure about a lot of things this evening!
0:21:26 > 0:21:30The corporation tax, what I've been told is that Northern Ireland
0:21:30 > 0:21:33will have the right to change it, to lower it...
0:21:33 > 0:21:37They want it. They haven't had it.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41If they had the right to lower it in order to compete
0:21:41 > 0:21:45with the Republic, they would lose money
0:21:45 > 0:21:50because they would have to lower it. You have to be careful.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53The same thing is happening in Scotland.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Are they going to lower it to compete with England?
0:21:56 > 0:22:00Carwyn Jones' policy as I see it is whatever Scotland wants,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03or Northern Ireland, I want it too!
0:22:03 > 0:22:05That's not much of a policy.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08In your manifesto, all you said about taxes
0:22:08 > 0:22:13was that you didn't want the power to set income tax.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15That's all you said about it.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18In the weeks since the election,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21suddenly Carwyn and the Labour Party have decided
0:22:21 > 0:22:26- that they want all kinds of...- We didn't mention raising income tax.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29- No, you want other taxes. - There is a practical point, Ffred.
0:22:29 > 0:22:34There may be a symbolic argument for having these powers,
0:22:34 > 0:22:38but during these economic times, if you cut those taxes,
0:22:38 > 0:22:41the money comes off the block.
0:22:41 > 0:22:46But having the power to vary different kinds of taxes
0:22:46 > 0:22:49also goes hand in hand with borrowing.
0:22:49 > 0:22:54If you can raise taxes, it is is easier to borrow.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57But there was no mention of this weeks ago,
0:22:57 > 0:23:03but now Alex Salmond has said exactly what he wants,
0:23:03 > 0:23:07suddenly Wales is looking at Scotland and...
0:23:07 > 0:23:11But that's because the UK Government
0:23:11 > 0:23:14has said that the process will be looked at.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16But now Scotland has made its case...
0:23:16 > 0:23:22We had the Gerry Holtham inquiry, we've had that inquiry
0:23:22 > 0:23:26and that's thanks to Plaid Cymru, we've seen what is needed,
0:23:26 > 0:23:31as far as funding for Wales, what we hand alongside that
0:23:31 > 0:23:35is, of course, more powers regarding tax.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38I'm glad Carwyn has woken up to that.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42Isn't it inevitable that eventually these powers will come in,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45as we'll have more legislative powers?
0:23:45 > 0:23:49We'll need to take responsibility for raising taxes to pay for that.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53The biggest threat right now to the British constitution
0:23:53 > 0:23:59is that we have a weak legislative body in Cardiff, to an extent,
0:23:59 > 0:24:03a full parliament in Scotland, which is insisting on more powers,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06and that is where the strain will come.
0:24:06 > 0:24:11It's inevitable that symmetry is needed to the constitution.
0:24:11 > 0:24:16I would say that the natural step is more accountability here
0:24:16 > 0:24:19by devolving financial powers to the Assembly.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23We'll leave it there. Thank you for joining us this evening.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27And that's it. We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday.
0:24:27 > 0:24:32- I hope you can join us. - Until then, good evening.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35- Enjoy the rest of the week. - Goodnight.