0:00:20 > 0:00:23Good evening and welcome to CF99.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26Tonight - Wales' first language commissioner.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28The advertisement is on its way,
0:00:28 > 0:00:30but is the position an honour or a curse?
0:00:30 > 0:00:33And are you on strike tomorrow?
0:00:33 > 0:00:35Is it a fair way to protect rights
0:00:35 > 0:00:37or an unnecessary nuisance for everyone else?
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Joining us tonight in the Senedd
0:00:39 > 0:00:42is the AM, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, from Plaid Cymru,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Rhys Williams from the Labour Party,
0:00:44 > 0:00:50and Iestyn Davies from the Federation of Small Businesses.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54Are you an energetic and committed person who fancies a new challenge?
0:00:54 > 0:00:57Well, Assembly Members have approved the process
0:00:57 > 0:01:00of appointing Wales' first language commissioner.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04Someone that will be a champion and an advocate for the language.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07But before you start revamping that CV,
0:01:07 > 0:01:11you also need the wisdom of Solomon and and patience of Job.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13That's according to the former minister
0:01:13 > 0:01:16who was responsible for forming the position.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Yes, the First Minister is looking for a special applicant
0:01:33 > 0:01:35to fill an important role.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39Yesterday, the Assembly was given a summary of the job description
0:01:39 > 0:01:41by someone who is famous for being blunt.
0:01:41 > 0:01:46However, it wasn't Lord Alan Sugar.
0:01:46 > 0:01:51The commissioner will be a champion and an advocate for the language
0:01:51 > 0:01:54and will also play a crucial role
0:01:54 > 0:01:58in developing and raising language standards.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02So the reward for the successful applicant will be the opportunity
0:02:02 > 0:02:05to be at the forefront, protecting and promoting
0:02:05 > 0:02:08one of the most contentious issues in Welsh politics -
0:02:08 > 0:02:09the Welsh language.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12How hard can that be?
0:02:12 > 0:02:17He or she will need the wisdom of Solomon and the patience of Job,
0:02:17 > 0:02:21the cunning of Salome and the chutzpa of King David.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25If you can find a person like that, all the better!
0:02:25 > 0:02:27This person will be a regulator.
0:02:27 > 0:02:32Now, that in itself could be a dry and worthless role.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35We can't afford to have that kind of person.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39We've accomplished so much with regard to the Welsh language
0:02:39 > 0:02:42over the last few years and we need to keep that momentum going.
0:02:42 > 0:02:46This person can not be a lap dog to anyone.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50- Would you apply?- Well, it's going to be a challenge for anyone.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53Even if the commissioner is not a lap dog,
0:02:53 > 0:02:56he or she will be answerable to the Welsh Government.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00Do you regret not making the position answerable
0:03:00 > 0:03:04to the entire Assembly, considering you are now in opposition?
0:03:04 > 0:03:10The Government decides how much money will be available,
0:03:10 > 0:03:15and the commissioner needs to be able to talk to the Government.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19Every time a new commissioner is appointed, the question will arise.
0:03:19 > 0:03:21Is it the establishment's commissioner
0:03:21 > 0:03:23or the people's commissioner?
0:03:23 > 0:03:26The big difference for the Welsh Language Board
0:03:26 > 0:03:30is that the commissioner will be able to issue fines.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33The commissioner will also inherit expertise,
0:03:33 > 0:03:38with two thirds of the Board's staff being adopted by the commissioner's
0:03:38 > 0:03:41office when the work of the Board ends in March next year.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45The rest will join the ranks of the Government's civil servants.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47But before disappearing,
0:03:47 > 0:03:50the Board is determined to win one final battle.
0:03:50 > 0:03:55The row over the translation of the Assembly's record.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59The response has been very positive from the new presiding officer.
0:03:59 > 0:04:01She wants to find a way forward
0:04:01 > 0:04:05and she's been looking at ways of offering a translation
0:04:05 > 0:04:09that is available in other European countries.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Maybe that's a challenge for me as a chair.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14That I can say, at the end of my term,
0:04:14 > 0:04:18one of the last things I did was sort out the record.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20So there's no doubt about it.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24The work of the commissioner's office will be very different
0:04:24 > 0:04:26to the work of the Welsh Language Board.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29The first commissioner will have significant freedom
0:04:29 > 0:04:33to define the position according to his or her priorities.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37However, nobody denies the size of the challenge,
0:04:37 > 0:04:39especially at the moment.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44It's ironic that we've just seen status for the language,
0:04:44 > 0:04:46and the referendum for more powers being won,
0:04:46 > 0:04:49but we're still fighting for these things.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51We still have to fight to keep our Welsh TV channel.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55It's easy to support both languages if you're a business,
0:04:55 > 0:04:57if you're in the private sector.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00The decisions that organisations have to make
0:05:00 > 0:05:04concerning the use of the language in the workplace and in business
0:05:04 > 0:05:05is also a challenge for us.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08So many pieces of the jigsaw are moving.
0:05:08 > 0:05:12It's as if the wind is blowing in favour of the language.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15If you think of Welsh as a sailboat,
0:05:15 > 0:05:21there are many favourable winds and breezes.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25However, we've lost ground with regard to the places
0:05:25 > 0:05:29where the Welsh language is used naturally and regularly.
0:05:29 > 0:05:35So it's as if the tide is going back
0:05:35 > 0:05:38but the wind's in our favour.
0:05:38 > 0:05:42Under such circumstances, and for this job at least,
0:05:42 > 0:05:45finding an apprentice is not the objective.
0:05:47 > 0:05:52Rhodri Glyn Thomas, you wear several hats in this area.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56One Assembly committee has chosen you as the person
0:05:56 > 0:06:00to represent the Assembly in the selection of the commissioner.
0:06:00 > 0:06:04What kind of person are you expecting to appoint?
0:06:04 > 0:06:10That CV from Alun Ffred was very ambitious, wasn't it?
0:06:10 > 0:06:12Yes.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16I think you could add thick skin to the list Ffred made.
0:06:16 > 0:06:21We all know that Welsh speakers can be very critical.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25We've all been there. Rhys has been there. I've been there.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29There are many Welsh speakers who spend all their time
0:06:29 > 0:06:33criticising other people instead of doing something for the language.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35So there will be criticism.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39The big question is, will this commissioner have credibility?
0:06:39 > 0:06:43Will people be able to trust the commissioner
0:06:43 > 0:06:47and the work the commissioner's office does?
0:06:47 > 0:06:50I would argue that the example is the way Peter Clarke,
0:06:50 > 0:06:53when he was appointed as the Children's Commissioner,
0:06:53 > 0:06:57established and built that commission
0:06:57 > 0:07:01and ensured that everyone had complete trust in them.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04If the language commissioner can do that,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06something important will have happened.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08However, one dilemma continues.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12The Government has not managed to separate the responsibility
0:07:12 > 0:07:15with regard to regulation and promotion.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18I don't think you can do the two things.
0:07:18 > 0:07:23The Government has to say what exactly the commissioner's role is.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25But to some extent,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29isn't it likely that if the commissioner is a strong person,
0:07:29 > 0:07:31he or she will define the position?
0:07:31 > 0:07:36He or she will decide where the boundaries are and what the role is.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38I think that's the main qualification.
0:07:38 > 0:07:44The commissioner will have to show that he or she has a clear vision
0:07:44 > 0:07:49of the role and what needs to be achieved to ensure
0:07:49 > 0:07:55that we have a situation in Wales where the two languages are equal
0:07:55 > 0:08:00and that people's rights to use either language are protected.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04Rhys, you need to be a diplomat, a policeman, a judge.
0:08:04 > 0:08:09To what extent will the individual have to shape the position?
0:08:09 > 0:08:11I think that's the case.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14I agree with Rhodri when he talked about Peter Clarke.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19He defined the position and it took two years.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22I remember seeing this man with no tie,
0:08:22 > 0:08:24he didn't look like a civil servant,
0:08:24 > 0:08:28but after two years, he'd convinced people.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31It's a bit like being the manager of a football team.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34It depends on the results after two years.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38So you want a people's commissioner, not the establishment's commissioner?
0:08:38 > 0:08:41The people.
0:08:41 > 0:08:48Someone the people can turn to and trust.
0:08:48 > 0:08:54Iestyn, is it important that this person has a high profile?
0:08:54 > 0:08:58People have said that the Board...
0:08:58 > 0:09:03People don't feel they can go to the Board to complain.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06They don't feel they know the members of the Board
0:09:06 > 0:09:09and who runs the Board.
0:09:09 > 0:09:15There's no one person they can turn to and say, this is my problem.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19It's important that this role convincesnon Welsh speakers.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22We all know what the Welsh Language Board and who's on it.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27To do that, we need to make sure people trust this person,
0:09:27 > 0:09:29the body and the status
0:09:29 > 0:09:34and everything that comes with this role.
0:09:34 > 0:09:35This is one person,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39but it's important that the precedent is there as well.
0:09:39 > 0:09:44And are small businesses eager to see the role being filled,
0:09:44 > 0:09:49or are they concerned that this policeman or policewoman
0:09:49 > 0:09:52will create problems for them?
0:09:52 > 0:09:55You've given evidence to the committee,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58and you said that they would respond better
0:09:58 > 0:10:00to requests rather than legislation.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04Small businesses face legislation and rules every day.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08So the important role for the commissioner is to promote
0:10:08 > 0:10:10and ensure that the agenda moves forward
0:10:10 > 0:10:16and also to mark where we are in terms of Welsh language legislation.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19- And to fine?- No. Not in my opinion or the opinion of small businesses.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23What is needed is support and promotion,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26as the Language Board is already doing with us,
0:10:26 > 0:10:31to enable small businesses to use the Welsh language
0:10:31 > 0:10:34and promote the role of the language in modern Wales.
0:10:34 > 0:10:39If there too much policing and fining, will that have
0:10:39 > 0:10:42a negative effect on the language?
0:10:42 > 0:10:44I think there is a balance to be had.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49You need the trust of people that are fighting for their rights.
0:10:49 > 0:10:54And you need the trust and respect of non-Welsh speakers,
0:10:54 > 0:11:00so is there fairness and is the language given too much favouritism?
0:11:00 > 0:11:04That is the kind of balance the commissioner will have to find.
0:11:04 > 0:11:09But are you confident... I know of a council not far from
0:11:09 > 0:11:14where Iestyn lives that has been working towards a Welsh website
0:11:14 > 0:11:17for the past four years and all they have at the moment
0:11:17 > 0:11:21is Google Translate. Are you confident that a commissioner
0:11:21 > 0:11:24can give a kick up the backside where maybe the Board has failed?
0:11:24 > 0:11:29The commissioner will have much stronger powers than the Board.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33The Board does a lot of work in securing language plans.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37That is going to change now, but the commissioner will be able
0:11:37 > 0:11:43to ensure that happens and that people who want to use Welsh
0:11:43 > 0:11:47- have the right to do so.- Now, you have another hat, Rhodri.
0:11:47 > 0:11:51You're the person on the commission, responsible for the language,
0:11:51 > 0:11:54so we'll leave you 'til last.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58Iestyn Davies, are you one of those who see this as something symbolic,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00that the bilingual record is needed?
0:12:00 > 0:12:04No, but I would like to see a bilingual record.
0:12:04 > 0:12:09Unless the Assembly and the Government, as part of that process,
0:12:09 > 0:12:14cannot ensure that the record is translated regularly,
0:12:14 > 0:12:18what option do they have when telling businesses what to do?
0:12:18 > 0:12:22Do you agree, Rhys? It's a waste of money, according to some.
0:12:22 > 0:12:28There's nothing I love more when I'm in Cardiff
0:12:28 > 0:12:31than going to the supermarket and seeing all the bilingual signs.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35Years ago, people would have said "It's not practical,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38"people don't understand it."
0:12:38 > 0:12:40But it's important, as a matter of principle,
0:12:40 > 0:12:45that people see these signs.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49A lot of people go to supermarkets, not many read the Assembly record.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53Well, I don't know. Today, before coming on this programme,
0:12:53 > 0:12:58I wanted to know what a certain word was in Welsh.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02I was looking at the terms from the Assembly.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07And it said... "Mynegai..." "Manwerthu..."
0:13:07 > 0:13:12Well, I've forgotten now. I wouldn't remember it tomorrow anyway.
0:13:12 > 0:13:16But it's nice that we can turn to the Assembly
0:13:16 > 0:13:18for standard language.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22There was a time when people turned to the Bible for that.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26So what about your personal opinion, Rhodri?
0:13:26 > 0:13:30My personal opinion has been put on the record a number of times.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33I complained when the decision was made back in 2009.
0:13:33 > 0:13:41I gave evidence before the board set up to review the decision.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45I argued the case in favour of a bilingual record.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48I still believe that there is a question of status here.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51What is changing is that the Language Board
0:13:51 > 0:13:59has said that we have gone against the Assembly's language strategy
0:13:59 > 0:14:01and we must respond positively.
0:14:01 > 0:14:08So are we to take from that there will probably be a bilingual record
0:14:08 > 0:14:11- eventually?- Well, there are practical problems.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15There are cost problems. I think we must look at the situation
0:14:15 > 0:14:21where translation companies can charge the prices they do charge.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23That was the biggest problem.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28It cost nearly 400,000 originally for a record within 24 hours.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31That is not practical for the Assembly or anyone else.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35So we must raise questions about that. Technology is changing.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39But in the long-term, I must put the case forward
0:14:39 > 0:14:43and I must persuade the three other commissioners and Presiding Officer
0:14:43 > 0:14:47to support this, and we need to look at the technology
0:14:47 > 0:14:50and see if there is a way for us to use the technology
0:14:50 > 0:14:53- to make it more cost effective. - Do you think Dafydd Elis Thomas
0:14:53 > 0:14:55has been wise in raising this?
0:14:55 > 0:14:59Dafydd had arguments that were very important at the time.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03The biggest argument was - should all this money be spent
0:15:03 > 0:15:08on a record that had been translated into Welsh in written form,
0:15:08 > 0:15:12- were there other things we could do? - But whatever the argument,
0:15:12 > 0:15:16a former Language Board chairman as Presiding Officer
0:15:16 > 0:15:20broke the Assembly's language strategy.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22That was incredible, wasn't it?
0:15:22 > 0:15:27Well, the Assembly had every right to change the language strategy.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30- But not break it. - What should have happened,
0:15:30 > 0:15:33for some reason it didn't, there should have been talks
0:15:33 > 0:15:38with the Board regarding this and an agreement should have been reached
0:15:38 > 0:15:40between the Assembly and the Board.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43That is what we have to do now.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47Whatever the result, we will have to reach an agreement
0:15:47 > 0:15:50with the Language Board regarding the way we move on from here.
0:15:50 > 0:15:56Right. Thank you. 750,000 teachers and civil servants
0:15:56 > 0:16:00will strike tomorrow in a dispute over pensions.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03David Cameron has urged people not to strike,
0:16:03 > 0:16:07but hundreds of schools in Wales are expected to close.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10There are strong feelings on both sides of the dispute.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15Businesses and parents are facing problems as a result of the action.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24I think we will have the support of a lot of parents.
0:16:24 > 0:16:30Parents are aware that teachers are not paid high wages
0:16:30 > 0:16:34and that the pension is part of the agreement in the public sector.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37This attack on pensions by the coalition is daft.
0:16:42 > 0:16:48If other people can strike, then anyone should have the right.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51But personally, I don't agree with it.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54Well, that's why you go on strike.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57You hit the parents and the parents have the vote.
0:16:57 > 0:17:01They can vote to tell the Government "This isn't right.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03"You have to do something."
0:17:03 > 0:17:07I'm not happy about it because of childminding, you know.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16It's unfortunate if children can't go to school.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19Parents have to stay at home. It affects business.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23I don't think the teachers have the support from the public
0:17:23 > 0:17:26in striking. We have problems with pensions,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30talks must be held, I don't think striking is the answer.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37As the voice of the private sector here tonight, Iestyn,
0:17:37 > 0:17:41do you have any sympathy with those striking tomorrow?
0:17:41 > 0:17:43To an extent, of course.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45We have a membership that is married,
0:17:45 > 0:17:50or can see the challenge and the problem.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54It's not a question of the private sector not agreeing
0:17:54 > 0:17:58with the public sector - there is a strong argument here.
0:17:58 > 0:18:03But I don't think that there is much sympathy from the private sector
0:18:03 > 0:18:06towards those people who have decided that strike action
0:18:06 > 0:18:11is the way forward - where was this movement, this protest,
0:18:11 > 0:18:13when Bosch was going bust?
0:18:13 > 0:18:18Where is this protest when the high street is suffering,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21when shops are closing, businesses are closing?
0:18:21 > 0:18:25If you really want to fight against the problem we face
0:18:25 > 0:18:28as a nation, as an economy, because of the recession...
0:18:28 > 0:18:32It depends on the strength of the unions in the different sectors.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36Yes, certainly. And we all accept that the unions
0:18:36 > 0:18:38are now stronger in the public sector.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42But rhetoric is one thing, of course.
0:18:42 > 0:18:47Another question is can they achieve anything through this process?
0:18:47 > 0:18:49I don't think they can.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53The private sector has that option to strike from time to time,
0:18:53 > 0:18:56but we need to find another way to compromise.
0:18:56 > 0:19:02Rhys, isn't it the case that even if the country wasn't in the state
0:19:02 > 0:19:06that it is, we're all living longer, pensions must be adapted,
0:19:06 > 0:19:10the Government doesn't want to change what people have paid for,
0:19:10 > 0:19:14they're just saying - from now on, as you're living longer,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17you will have to pay more and take less. It's not unreasonable.
0:19:17 > 0:19:24What is ahead is that teachers will be paying more,
0:19:24 > 0:19:31working longer and receiving less at the end.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35But receiving less for a much longer period, an average.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Isn't that the point?
0:19:37 > 0:19:41The point is that any union worth its salt wouldn't accept that.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44Iestyn was saying they should hold talks.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48The unions have been trying to hold talks.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52And the Government has said, this is their style these days,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56that is strength, that they will not hold talks...
0:19:56 > 0:19:59But the question is, are the unions and the teachers,
0:19:59 > 0:20:02who will affect a lot of us as parents and businesses tomorrow,
0:20:02 > 0:20:05do they accept that the bar has moved?
0:20:05 > 0:20:08As Vaughan says, we're living longer,
0:20:08 > 0:20:13things have changed, compared with the way it was.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16They say about living longer... One thing the Government has done
0:20:16 > 0:20:20is bring the elderly and younger people together.
0:20:20 > 0:20:25The younger people these days, the newly qualified teachers,
0:20:25 > 0:20:31instead of paying 6.4%, they'll be paying 9.8%.
0:20:31 > 0:20:36Now then, I have a relative who works in the private world
0:20:36 > 0:20:41and she said, "Oh, that is awful!"
0:20:41 > 0:20:45"Starting off with a mortgage and all the things you need..."
0:20:45 > 0:20:51"In the private sector, it goes up gradually.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54"Is there another option?" I said, "No."
0:20:54 > 0:20:56You opt out of a pension.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00Rhodri, Vince Cable has warned that if the strikes go ahead,
0:21:00 > 0:21:07there will be legislation to restrict the power of the unions,
0:21:07 > 0:21:11if you like, that they must have a clear majority in a vote,
0:21:11 > 0:21:16so are the unions damaging themselves by striking tomorrow?
0:21:16 > 0:21:19I think there must be respect on both sides.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23If you take our situation, as elected members here,
0:21:23 > 0:21:27there will be a strike and there will be picketing here.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30I won't be crossing the picket line tomorrow.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35I respect the unions' right to strike and argue their case,
0:21:35 > 0:21:40regarding what is happening, but the unions must show the same respect.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45If all the unions are going to come and picket the Senedd,
0:21:45 > 0:21:48as elected members, we cannot carry out our jobs.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52Tomorrow, those picketing will be people that work here.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56They have the right to do that and we should respect that.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59- You'll be working elsewhere. - I'll be in Brussels tomorrow.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03But even if I were here, I wouldn't be crossing the picket line.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08But this question of respect is a huge question here.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11I don't want to return to a situation where the unions
0:22:11 > 0:22:15are stopped from expressing their opposition to Government policy,
0:22:15 > 0:22:18that would be totally unacceptable.
0:22:18 > 0:22:24Talking of respect, Rhys, some parents who have to rearrange
0:22:24 > 0:22:27childcare tomorrow - they have terrible problems
0:22:27 > 0:22:32when they try and take a child out of school to go on holiday,
0:22:32 > 0:22:36so what does that say about teachers, that they're prepared
0:22:36 > 0:22:39to deny children education in that way...?
0:22:39 > 0:22:42You're talking about respect, Vaughan.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46What respect has the Government shown towards teachers
0:22:46 > 0:22:51when they change the pensions at the last minute,
0:22:51 > 0:22:55- when they change... - They're not changing anything
0:22:55 > 0:22:59where people have already paid for it.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02They will have to pay more for their pensions.
0:23:02 > 0:23:09- In the future.- There has been a change in the policy deal
0:23:09 > 0:23:12because of the huge changes that have taken place
0:23:12 > 0:23:16since the pension system was established.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19In these talks, no-one is denying that.
0:23:19 > 0:23:25But at the same time, they need to find a third way, if you like,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28to move forward on this subject.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32And why should someone who works in the private sector
0:23:32 > 0:23:39work for longer to pay taxes to pay for pensions for teachers
0:23:39 > 0:23:43- and nurses and so on? - If you are a parent or anyone,
0:23:43 > 0:23:47common sense says there will be a crisis in 15 years
0:23:47 > 0:23:51when teachers are in their 50s and 60s,
0:23:51 > 0:23:55it will break down and there will be a crisis
0:23:55 > 0:23:59and I take no pleasure in saying that.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Rhodri Glyn Thomas, is part of the problem here
0:24:02 > 0:24:06that politicians so far have not changed their pensions plans?
0:24:06 > 0:24:12That is a fact and it's easy for David Cameron and George Osborne,
0:24:12 > 0:24:16who are millionaires independently, to tell ordinary workers -
0:24:16 > 0:24:21you must accept these cuts and we're all in it together.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24It's easy for a millionaire to say that.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27On that note, we must leave it for tonight.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30Thank you for joining us this evening.
0:24:30 > 0:24:35We'll be back at the slightly later time of 10.30pm next Wednesday.
0:24:35 > 0:24:37- Until then, goodnight.- Goodnight.