0:00:00 > 0:00:00.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Hello and welcome to CF99.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24There is one major story in our programme tonight.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26After weeks of being suspended,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Aled Roberts has now returned to the Assembly
0:00:29 > 0:00:31as an AM for North Wales.
0:00:31 > 0:00:36But is this the end and what lessons can be learnt for his party,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38the Assembly and the Electoral Commission?
0:00:38 > 0:00:42We're joined by Simon Thomas, the Plaid Cymru AM,
0:00:42 > 0:00:47journalist Gareth Hughes and the Liberal Democrat Assembly Member,
0:00:47 > 0:00:51Aled Roberts, who's in our Wrexham studio.
0:00:52 > 0:00:56The Assembly has 60 members tonight for the first time in two months.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59After a fierce debate in the chamber this afternoon,
0:00:59 > 0:01:04the majority of AMs voted to let Aled Roberts back into the Assembly
0:01:04 > 0:01:07as the Liberal Democrat AM for North Wales.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12A new face, Eluned Parrott, gets the second seat
0:01:12 > 0:01:15after the party decided that John Dixon wouldn't be a member.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19The whole chapter raises questions and we'll discuss some later.
0:01:19 > 0:01:25First, here's a summary of the last two months by Owain Clarke.
0:01:34 > 0:01:39For a time this afternoon, the Assembly turned into a court
0:01:39 > 0:01:41and the politicians were the jury.
0:01:41 > 0:01:46At four o'clock, the accused, Aled Roberts, got told his fate.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53After two unpaid months,
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Aled Roberts can once again sit in the Chamber.
0:01:56 > 0:02:01But in John Dixon's case, the second Lib Dem to be suspended,
0:02:01 > 0:02:03his seat had already been filled.
0:02:03 > 0:02:08Last night, his party gave up on trying to save him.
0:02:08 > 0:02:13It was an end to a very important chapter in the Assembly's history.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21It all began just days after the May election,
0:02:21 > 0:02:24after taking part in only one session,
0:02:24 > 0:02:29it became clear both were elected while members of banned bodies.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32Aled Roberts was a member of the Pricing Wales Tribunal
0:02:32 > 0:02:35and John Dixon was a member of Care Wales.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38Their party said this was a technical matter
0:02:38 > 0:02:40to solve in a few days.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43Others disagreed.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48The first question is whether the election was valid.
0:02:48 > 0:02:54According to my knowledge of the law, it's quite simple
0:02:54 > 0:03:00and the election was not valid.
0:03:00 > 0:03:05After a complaint by UKIP, police went to investigate
0:03:05 > 0:03:08whether the two had broken electoral law.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12If they lost their jobs, whoever was second on the list
0:03:12 > 0:03:15would replace them.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19One of them was starting to lose patience.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22In a statement to this programme on 8 June,
0:03:22 > 0:03:26Eleanor Burnham said that the situation was a shambles,
0:03:26 > 0:03:31and looked like a farce which reflected badly on her leader.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33This was her party's response.
0:03:33 > 0:03:39There is blame on the party, isn't it the party's fault
0:03:39 > 0:03:41that this has happened with two candidates?
0:03:41 > 0:03:43I agree that the party is to blame.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45During this process, like Eleanor said,
0:03:45 > 0:03:52Kirsty Williams has made sure the party has co-operated
0:03:52 > 0:03:54with the Commission and the police.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57In the end, the police decided not to prosecute.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00The fate of the two were in the hands of the Assembly.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04But before the vote, the Assembly's Standard Commissioner
0:04:04 > 0:04:06was asked to weigh up the evidence.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10According to Gerard Elias, at the time of their nomination
0:04:10 > 0:04:13and the time they were elected, they were unsuitable
0:04:13 > 0:04:15as Assembly Members.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18In the case of John Dixon,
0:04:18 > 0:04:23Gerard Elias says there is belief that he was in a situation
0:04:23 > 0:04:27where he could have known this, but not Aled Roberts.
0:04:27 > 0:04:31This, because Mr Roberts had followed guidelines
0:04:31 > 0:04:34for candidates that were incorrect in the Welsh language
0:04:34 > 0:04:38compared to the ones in the English version.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44With the solicitors having looked at these points,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47it was now the politicians' turn.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51The Welsh language issue is very relevant to the case.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55The information in the Welsh language was not correct.
0:04:55 > 0:05:01If we suspend Aled Roberts, the suggestion is that it doesn't matter
0:05:01 > 0:05:06and that you shouldn't depend on any Welsh version.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09I think it's absolutely appalling that the Welsh language guidance
0:05:09 > 0:05:10was wrong.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13That's a matter for a different time.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16This isn't the issue here at all.
0:05:16 > 0:05:21The issue here is whether the offence that has been committed
0:05:21 > 0:05:24is one of strict liability or not.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27Tonight, the Assembly has 60 members
0:05:27 > 0:05:29for the first time in two months.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33But this chapter will raise a lot of questions.
0:05:33 > 0:05:40Aled Roberts is probably very happy and he isn't the only one.
0:05:40 > 0:05:45We will discuss the politics of this later.
0:05:45 > 0:05:51Aled, on a personal level, these last two months must have been hell?
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Yes, it's been very hard for me and the family.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00Without the support of people across North Wales
0:06:00 > 0:06:02it would have been even harder.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06I am very grateful to the people who contacted me.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09I wouldn't want anyone to go through this.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13Did you consider turning your back and just say
0:06:13 > 0:06:16this isn't worth the bother?
0:06:16 > 0:06:20I have a family, children, I might as well leave it.
0:06:20 > 0:06:26Yes. There was a lot of emotion every day.
0:06:26 > 0:06:31In the end, we had to go through a police investigation
0:06:31 > 0:06:34and after that, having interviews with Gerard Elias,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37and I was very keen for the facts to come out.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42I know you couldn't face to watch today's debate
0:06:42 > 0:06:48how did you find out the outcome and what was your response?
0:06:48 > 0:06:54It was a phonecall. By today, I was very keen to get a decision.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58What was important to me was that it all came to an end.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02I'm very happy that I have the chance to represent the people
0:07:02 > 0:07:04of North Wales.
0:07:04 > 0:07:08Simon Thomas, 30 voted in favour, 20 against,
0:07:08 > 0:07:11you abstained your vote. Why?
0:07:11 > 0:07:14For two reasons, firstly, I felt a little uneasy
0:07:14 > 0:07:19we were deciding who could join the Assembly.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24It felt as you were using white and black balls in a members club.
0:07:24 > 0:07:29I also felt a little uneasy that we were sending a message
0:07:29 > 0:07:32to people who hadn't come to the Assembly.
0:07:32 > 0:07:39Maybe people who had chosen a career as politicians.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42The councillors are facing the same problems, for example.
0:07:42 > 0:07:47I felt that we should consider carefully what message
0:07:47 > 0:07:50we were sending out as a full legislative Assembly.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53If we change the rules after to let someone in.
0:07:53 > 0:07:59In the end, I wasn't convinced enough to vote in their favour.
0:07:59 > 0:08:04Why? Why didn't you vote in favour of letting Aled Roberts in?
0:08:04 > 0:08:08I wasn't convinced that this was the best thing to do.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Whatever Gerard Elias' report says, that was ad hoc.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15Aled Roberts nor John Dixon weren't members of the Assembly
0:08:15 > 0:08:20and therefore weren't bound to the rules.
0:08:20 > 0:08:26Secondly, I feel the case in the paper
0:08:26 > 0:08:30presented by the Liberal Democrats wasn't good enough
0:08:30 > 0:08:36to change something that was legally supposed to be very rare.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38To ask your own question,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41what message is the Assembly sending out to the people?
0:08:41 > 0:08:47Is is right for a legislative body to bend the rules?
0:08:47 > 0:08:52It's obvious that it's legal because that's what it states in the law.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55It's was a matter for every individual AM today
0:08:55 > 0:08:58to decide whether this was acceptable.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02I wasn't convinced as were some 20 others
0:09:02 > 0:09:08but the process has been done and Aled has been elected.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12Gareth, Aled and John Dixon had no choice but to follow the law,
0:09:12 > 0:09:17when dealing with this problem.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20It struck me that people were saying all the time
0:09:20 > 0:09:22this has to be judicial.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27Asking a politician to leave politics on the doorstep
0:09:27 > 0:09:32is like asking an alcoholic to leave his drink by the door.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35Politics was bound to affect the way people behaved today.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39Yes. That was definitely the intention of the report.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43The intention was to say, "Don't be tribal about this issue.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47"You must sit back and look at the facts."
0:09:47 > 0:09:51This is the first time I've seen politicians look at the facts!
0:09:51 > 0:09:54They go by the emotion of their parties.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57This time they had to make up their own minds.
0:09:57 > 0:10:02I think that within party groups,
0:10:02 > 0:10:06they said, "What's the best thing for us to do as a party?"
0:10:06 > 0:10:10I think that is what has come out of today's vote.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13I noticed that if you look at the voting pattern,
0:10:13 > 0:10:17Plaid Cymru was supportive of Aled, the Cabinet supported Aled.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20What struck me was that Assembly Members
0:10:20 > 0:10:26representing Liberal Democrat areas were against his re-appointment.
0:10:26 > 0:10:31It must be the case that politics is at play for some.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33Certainly.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35If you look at it, you can see the people...
0:10:35 > 0:10:40I don't doubt that Simon, in the way that he abstained from voting...
0:10:40 > 0:10:42I wasn't going to name anybody.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45There may have been a political element to that.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47Of course we know that in Ceredigion,
0:10:47 > 0:10:51the campaigns between the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru
0:10:51 > 0:10:56are ferocious there. I'm sure that had an effect.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58You could look at that.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00It is also interesting that in the Labour Party,
0:11:00 > 0:11:03of course, the Cabinet members are in favour,
0:11:03 > 0:11:07and the leader of the Labour Party is a barrister,
0:11:07 > 0:11:09maybe that has an influence.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11All of the backbenchers, I would say,
0:11:11 > 0:11:17the new ones, have more or less all said, "No. Thumbs down."
0:11:17 > 0:11:20Aled Roberts, you've clearly experienced personal pain.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25Most members clearly sympathise with that.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29Are you concerned that the Assembly and the Assembly's image
0:11:29 > 0:11:31has taken a knock as a result of this?
0:11:31 > 0:11:35Peter Black admitted that in his speech this afternoon.
0:11:35 > 0:11:40I'm very unhappy that this situation has arisen.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43I think that there's a lesson to be learnt for many public bodies
0:11:43 > 0:11:45and also for my own party.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50What lessons, for your own party? We'll discuss the bodies in a moment.
0:11:50 > 0:11:55The directions were clearly not being given from up high.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59What happened was that the party depended on the directions
0:11:59 > 0:12:02that came from the Electoral Commission.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07It has become clear that the party should have its own guidelines.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12The process that candidates go through
0:12:12 > 0:12:15should include making sure that those guidelines are correct.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18That may be the case in future.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21Could I raise another point with you, Aled?
0:12:21 > 0:12:23This linguistic point.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26It appears to me as though this is the reason you are here.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30There are people who feel you've suffered from discrepancies
0:12:30 > 0:12:32on a linguistic level.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36How important was that support for you
0:12:36 > 0:12:40from the Eisteddfod and the Welsh Language Society,
0:12:40 > 0:12:42in pushing forward that argument?
0:12:44 > 0:12:48It was useful, but in the long run I think the most important thing
0:12:48 > 0:12:51for me was the support of the ordinary people in this region.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53That is what helped me.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57They are people I have known since birth,
0:12:57 > 0:12:59people I've grown up with.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02They were the most important thing for me.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07On that linguistic point, Simon, didn't that sway you?
0:13:07 > 0:13:11Wasn't that a reason to vote for this, on principle?
0:13:11 > 0:13:15It depends what you think the main principle is here.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18I believe it is a matter for the individual
0:13:18 > 0:13:21to try to ensure they are eligible.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25That is what I did as a member and a prospective candidate.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27I resigned from a job because I knew it was illegal
0:13:27 > 0:13:30for me to be a candidate and hold the job.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33I believed it was the individual was responsible,
0:13:33 > 0:13:35along with the party,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38and there's no doubt Aled has been wronged by his party.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41The Welsh issue is important here.
0:13:41 > 0:13:46There have been many failings in terms of Welsh language provision.
0:13:46 > 0:13:52But is that enough to open the door to allow somebody to return?
0:13:52 > 0:13:57As I said earlier, I thought the threshold had to be very high
0:13:57 > 0:14:00in order for us to reinstate anybody at the Assembly
0:14:00 > 0:14:02on the basis of the law alone.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04It doesn't provide any guidelines,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08it simply states that if you think it's appropriate, you can do it.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12There are no guidelines, it is the decision of every Assembly member.
0:14:12 > 0:14:18We will leave it there and turn to a related matter.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21The Electoral Commission has apologised to Aled
0:14:21 > 0:14:24for not updating the Welsh language advice on its website.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28Tonight it told CF99 that statistics suggest
0:14:28 > 0:14:32that nobody had visited the Welsh webpage in the relevant period,
0:14:32 > 0:14:35although that evidence is not entirely dependable.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Elliw Gwawr spoke to Rhydian Thomas of the commission,
0:14:39 > 0:14:43and asked whether user statistics on its Welsh language website
0:14:43 > 0:14:47had been analysed for the period leading up to the election.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49We accept the findings of Mr Elias.
0:14:49 > 0:14:54We accept that Mr Roberts had taken all the steps he should have
0:14:54 > 0:14:58to check that he was eligible for the election.
0:14:58 > 0:14:59We accept that.
0:14:59 > 0:15:04What the commission has done is we've looked at the relevant pages
0:15:04 > 0:15:07on our corporate website
0:15:07 > 0:15:11to try to discover the effect this error has had
0:15:11 > 0:15:16on any potential Welsh language users.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18That is something that concerns us.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21We take responsibility for this mistake, it is not good enough.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24We looked to see how many people it affected.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29We have collected the statistics for the number of hits,
0:15:29 > 0:15:35as it were, that this document on standing for election had had.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38The English version, for example,
0:15:38 > 0:15:41has had 143 hits.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44In terms of the Welsh language version,
0:15:44 > 0:15:46as far as we can tell,
0:15:46 > 0:15:52not one person has viewed the Welsh language version of the document.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55This is not some kind of forensic analysis.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57It's possible that someone has looked at it
0:15:57 > 0:16:01and it doesn't register with our analysis
0:16:01 > 0:16:04or with the way we collect the information.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07For example, it's possible to hide an IP address.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09It's possible not to register a hit
0:16:09 > 0:16:13if you come from a website like a search engine.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17But it's important that we try and discover what kind of effect
0:16:17 > 0:16:22this mistake has had and this is useful to us and allows us
0:16:22 > 0:16:27to move on and work with others and ensure this doesn't happen again.
0:16:27 > 0:16:33Have you passed this information on to Gerard Elias' investigation?
0:16:33 > 0:16:36The commission has presented this information
0:16:36 > 0:16:40about the number of people that have looked at the relevant pages
0:16:40 > 0:16:43to Mr Elias as part of his investigation.
0:16:43 > 0:16:51So questions are being raised about whether Aled looked at it at all.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55That means there's a bit of a hole in his defence, doesn't it?
0:16:55 > 0:17:00We as a commission accept Gerard Elias' report.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03We accept today's vote in the Senedd.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07What we are going to concentrate on now is ensuring
0:17:07 > 0:17:12that, in future, any material that's produced by the commission
0:17:12 > 0:17:14in any language is correct.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16We have a lot of work to do
0:17:16 > 0:17:19with regards to improving the commission's image.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21That's important.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24It's important for us now to move on
0:17:24 > 0:17:27and work with the political parties in Wales,
0:17:27 > 0:17:29to work with individual candidates in Wales
0:17:29 > 0:17:32and to work with Assembly Members.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Hopefully then, we can ensure that they understand
0:17:35 > 0:17:38that we're putting the appropriate steps in place now
0:17:38 > 0:17:44to make sure nothing like this ever happens again.
0:17:44 > 0:17:49Aled Roberts, we'll have your reaction to those allegations.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53Nobody had visited the website.
0:17:53 > 0:17:54That is a strong allegation,
0:17:54 > 0:17:58but they emphasised the evidence isn't forensic.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00What do you make of that?
0:18:00 > 0:18:03Gerard Elias covered this in the interview,
0:18:03 > 0:18:07as well as what I did on the day.
0:18:07 > 0:18:12Don't forget the published documents in Welsh and English
0:18:12 > 0:18:13were incorrect.
0:18:13 > 0:18:20A link had been sent out on 24 March by the Electoral Commission
0:18:20 > 0:18:24to the local authorities. The Welsh link was incorrect.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26I looked at that one.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30If their figures are not reliable, that is a matter for them.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33I know what I did and I gave that evidence to Mr Elias.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Did you print out the document at the time?
0:18:36 > 0:18:39No, I didn't print out the document.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42What do you make of that, Simon Thomas?
0:18:42 > 0:18:46It's clear Gerard Elias and the police looked at the evidence
0:18:46 > 0:18:50by the Electoral Commission and said it wasn't enough.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54But it does raise further questions about the commission.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57This is a body which has been criticised many times,
0:18:57 > 0:19:00especially in the context of the referendum.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04What do you make of the commission's role in Wales' democratic process?
0:19:04 > 0:19:06It's not fit for purpose.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10There have been so many failings by the commission on a Welsh level
0:19:10 > 0:19:12and also on a British level.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15You need only go back to the last General Election
0:19:15 > 0:19:20to see they were ill prepared for the number of voters in some place.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24They blamed the returning officers, but there is a problem here.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28The commission is a form of interface between the public
0:19:28 > 0:19:30and the political process.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34The public trusts the commission to be correct.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38But the commission doesn't take responsibility
0:19:38 > 0:19:40when something goes wrong.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44They have a perfect life. They're supposed to be trusted intermediary.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47But they don't take responsibility when things go wrong.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50The commission needs to be re-examined.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55Should they be making this allegation without being certain?
0:19:55 > 0:19:57To be honest, I'm gob smacked about this.
0:19:57 > 0:20:03This wasn't in Gerard Elias' report. He said the commission couldn't say.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07But they've said the website didn't receive any hits.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09Who is telling the truth?
0:20:09 > 0:20:12The commission's reputation has been dragged through the mud.
0:20:12 > 0:20:18We have to take this on what Aled said to Gerard Elias.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21We can't go on anything else.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Gareth, what do you make of the commission
0:20:24 > 0:20:26and what they've said tonight?
0:20:26 > 0:20:29People have looked at this evidence, why raise it now?
0:20:29 > 0:20:33What they're saying is political dynamite.
0:20:33 > 0:20:38If this had been in the report, I have no doubt
0:20:38 > 0:20:43that Plaid Cymru's vote would have been different.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47I cannot speak for other individuals.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49It was a decision for the individual.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52We did not meet as a group to discuss this.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56But we did discuss it among ourselves.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00The Welsh factor was in many people's minds.
0:21:00 > 0:21:07It was raised in the chamber today, this is a linguistic matter.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11The point was repeated again and again.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15If that would have been in the Elias Report,
0:21:15 > 0:21:21that would have taken some of the steam out of the linguistic debate.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26But that is important because of the principle.
0:21:26 > 0:21:33If the evidence says that is not what was in the report,
0:21:33 > 0:21:36we must also ask the question to Elias.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39They are not making a comment on that tonight.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42We have been in touch.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45Aled Roberts, what do you make of the commission,
0:21:45 > 0:21:49which seems to have put you in this hole
0:21:49 > 0:21:51and have raised further questions tonight?
0:21:51 > 0:21:55One thing I have learned during the past two months
0:21:55 > 0:22:00is not to be biased. It's important that people look at the facts.
0:22:00 > 0:22:04They need to look at what went wrong and learn from these mistakes.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07There are a number of lessons to be learned.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11I looked at the various processes Westminster goes through
0:22:11 > 0:22:19and those the Assembly goes through once the Queen has given consent.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23The current system in Cardiff Bay isn't good enough.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27It's important that people take their time to look into this.
0:22:27 > 0:22:34I, for one, don't want anyone to have to pay a price for this.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38We just need to learn lessons from this.
0:22:38 > 0:22:43We've talked about the mistake by the Electoral Commission,
0:22:43 > 0:22:48but there was a long period before the Assembly told the commission
0:22:48 > 0:22:53that this list of banned bodies had been changed.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55The new list was passed last year,
0:22:55 > 0:22:59but it took until this year for them to learn about this.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02That suggests something has to be done
0:23:02 > 0:23:05about what happens once legislation is passed.
0:23:05 > 0:23:10Possibly. I believe the legislation was passed in January.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13Certainly, I was aware of the legislation.
0:23:13 > 0:23:20But having said that, we should look at the information processes.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24To be honest, it's the Electoral Commission's work
0:23:24 > 0:23:26to look at election legislation.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28They don't have an excuse.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30To say the Assembly Government
0:23:30 > 0:23:33or the Assembly itself hasn't told them isn't good enough.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38You would think they would have sat in the public gallery or committee.
0:23:38 > 0:23:43It went through committee, plenary, the Commons and the Lords.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46It then went to the Privy Council.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50There were enough opportunities for any quango, with money and staff,
0:23:50 > 0:23:54to see what was going on. I don't sympathise with them at all.
0:23:54 > 0:24:00What will people from outside this political bubble make of this saga?
0:24:00 > 0:24:04I don't think it will cause much movement on the Richter scale.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07They'll see it as another political row.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11It won't affect people's day to day lives.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15That is the tragedy, because important principles are at stake.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18But the public aren't taking much notice.
0:24:18 > 0:24:20We're the only ones who do.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24On that low note, I'll say thanks to our guests.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26- You old cynic!- That's not true.
0:24:26 > 0:24:31That's all for tonight. We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34- Until then, good evening. - Good evening.
0:24:53 > 0:24:53.