0:00:21 > 0:00:24Good evening and welcome to the programme.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26Tonight, what next for devolution in Wales?
0:00:26 > 0:00:28David Cameron announces a new commission
0:00:28 > 0:00:31but will Scotland shape the discussion in Wales?
0:00:31 > 0:00:37Joining us is Helen Mary Jones the former AM for Plaid Cymru,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40political commentator, Rod Richards
0:00:40 > 0:00:43and Jon Owen Jones, a former Labour minister.
0:00:43 > 0:00:49The Rupert Murdoch story has been in the headlines in Westminster,
0:00:49 > 0:00:54but Carwyn Jones' view on devolution has been hitting the headlines here.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58David Cameron has announced there will be a commission
0:00:58 > 0:01:00to look at the future of Welsh devolution
0:01:00 > 0:01:04so what next for the Assembly?
0:01:04 > 0:01:07With power, you have accountability according to Mr Cameron.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09Does that mean tax-raising powers?
0:01:09 > 0:01:15In Scotland, the ambition of the SNP is clear
0:01:15 > 0:01:17a referendum on independence.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19So to what extent will that discussion in Scotland
0:01:19 > 0:01:25shape the discussions here in Wales? Owain Clarke reports.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29On this programme, we are always eager to find stories
0:01:29 > 0:01:32that fire your imagination.
0:01:32 > 0:01:38In the context of British politics at the moment,
0:01:38 > 0:01:44you won't get a better story than what is happening down there.
0:02:00 > 0:02:06On some occasions, the political excitement can be felt.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10The political landscape can move in front of your eyes.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13For everything there is a season and a time.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16For Scotland, for this Parliament,
0:02:16 > 0:02:20this can be a good season and a good time.
0:02:21 > 0:02:26Who would have thought in 2003 when the SNP won
0:02:26 > 0:02:30that eight years later it would accomplish one of its main goals,
0:02:30 > 0:02:34holding a referendum on independence.
0:02:36 > 0:02:41Most of the SNP members
0:02:41 > 0:02:43in the Scottish Parliament are seismic.
0:02:43 > 0:02:49They can pass policies which they couldn't do before.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52People will wait and see what will happen in the next three years.
0:02:52 > 0:02:57The system in Scotland means that no-one can have a majority.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01The SNP knocked out of the ballpark with the latest results.
0:03:01 > 0:03:07After the vote, Alex Salmond wanted to appear presidential
0:03:07 > 0:03:09but what was the secret?
0:03:10 > 0:03:14A lot of people voted for the SNP, not for independence,
0:03:14 > 0:03:18but for the best team to run the country.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22The SNP is amazing as a machine.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26On top of that in Salmond they have one of the most
0:03:26 > 0:03:30charismatic political figures of our age.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35He was a year ahead of me at St Andrew's University.
0:03:35 > 0:03:42We were both a little smaller in build than we are now.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44He has charisma.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48Alex Salmond's charisma is part of the problem.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51It is what the Australians call tall poppy syndrome.
0:03:51 > 0:03:57The fact he is such a big presence in a military country like Scotland
0:03:57 > 0:04:01that is an advantage.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05He is a real Marmite man, you either love him or you hate him.
0:04:05 > 0:04:11Marmite or not, one Edinburgh lady who has lived here for years
0:04:11 > 0:04:14offers a new theory.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16I thought a lot of him.
0:04:16 > 0:04:22I don't know why, he's not handsome. He hasn't got any sex appeal,
0:04:22 > 0:04:25but we all like him.
0:04:25 > 0:04:31He doesn't frighten women, at your peril.
0:04:31 > 0:04:37Normal things are important for him.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Things to do with children and family and heritage.
0:04:40 > 0:04:46From the north downwards, Scotland doesn't want to lose that.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52But if there's room for argument about the reason,
0:04:52 > 0:04:54there is no doubt about the effect.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59The opinion polls suggest at the moment that most voters
0:04:59 > 0:05:00are against independence.
0:05:00 > 0:05:05Salmond's Government will do everything to try and persuade them.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10Does this mean that Scottish people are about to decide
0:05:10 > 0:05:16that independence is something that is within their reach?
0:05:16 > 0:05:19And that is it something that they want?
0:05:19 > 0:05:24Or have they decided that this is an effective way
0:05:24 > 0:05:27to see what they can get from Westminster?
0:05:27 > 0:05:32If that is the aim, the SNP has already succeeded.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36With one eye on their own referendum,
0:05:36 > 0:05:39the UK Government has agreed to devolve important financial powers.
0:05:39 > 0:05:45A test of the political truth maybe that power does count.
0:05:45 > 0:05:50Some say that casts a shadow over Wales.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53The problem for Labour in Wales
0:05:53 > 0:05:59is that there is conservative constitution in its manifesto.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04The referendum was over and they didn't want to go back to it
0:06:04 > 0:06:05because it created internal problems.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10The problem Carwyn Jones has is, because of Alex Salmond and the SNP,
0:06:10 > 0:06:14constitutional questions are at the top of the agenda.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17Alex Salmond doesn't just want a referendum on independence,
0:06:17 > 0:06:19but he wants concessions.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22The British Government must give concessions.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26In Plaid Cymru, you've a comparison with its sister party,
0:06:26 > 0:06:28which makes members feel uncomfortable.
0:06:28 > 0:06:35It underlines how disappointing their performance was in 2011.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39Geography can often offer convenient political comparisons.
0:06:39 > 0:06:44Yes, Scottish political enthusiasm reaches far beyond Holyrood.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49The question is whether the momentum will gather pace or not.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55Helen Mary Jones,
0:06:55 > 0:06:59there are many differences between Wales and Scotland,
0:06:59 > 0:07:02but one of the big differences is that charismatic figure,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05the leader of the SNP.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08That is true. In the current context,
0:07:08 > 0:07:12we can compare Alex Salmond and Carwyn Jones.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14The two First Ministers.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17One of them has big ambitions for his country,
0:07:17 > 0:07:19putting Cameron and others on the spot saying,
0:07:19 > 0:07:23"You need to offer financial powers."
0:07:23 > 0:07:25The other is not very ambitious at all,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29and is unclear as to what it is he wants to do in Wales.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32We'll return to that point, we have plenty of time.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36It appears to me as though you have a man who is a leader,
0:07:36 > 0:07:40he has a strategy, and so does his party.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43There isn't a comparison to be made between that
0:07:43 > 0:07:45and Plaid Cymru's situation,
0:07:45 > 0:07:48where Plaid Cymru enjoyed being in power but didn't have a strategy
0:07:48 > 0:07:50to gain power.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54There's no doubt that Alex Salmond is a very special figure,
0:07:54 > 0:07:57a once-in-a-generation type figure, if that.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00As a party we need to accept that fact.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05We didn't take advantage of all the good work we did in government.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07We must also remember that Plaid Cymru
0:08:07 > 0:08:09is more than a power-seeking party.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13It was important we played a part in the government
0:08:13 > 0:08:14to secure a referendum
0:08:14 > 0:08:20so that we could take a step towards a better Welsh government.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22I can say one thing to you,
0:08:22 > 0:08:27and I don't mean to rake up an old argument,
0:08:27 > 0:08:32but Alex Salmond wouldn't have chosen to be deputy first minister,
0:08:32 > 0:08:34instead of first minister.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38It's a difficult question, and it was a difficult question in 2007.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42We should respect Ieuan for sacrificing becoming First Minister
0:08:42 > 0:08:46to take the constitutional step that was necessary
0:08:46 > 0:08:49so that ruling Wales would become clearer.
0:08:49 > 0:08:54What we have to do now as a party, and the process is in place,
0:08:54 > 0:08:57is to secure we develop that clear strategy
0:08:57 > 0:09:00and that we then select a new leader.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04Ieuan's said that there's a process in place for him to step down,
0:09:04 > 0:09:06as Rhodri Morgan did.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09Then we'll know which path we want to follow
0:09:09 > 0:09:15and which path we want to make sure the country follows,
0:09:15 > 0:09:19then we'll select the right person to bring that forward.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22Jon Owen Jones, you know Alex Salmond,
0:09:22 > 0:09:25you've seen him perform in parliament.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27Rod Richards, what about you?
0:09:27 > 0:09:33Could you see the prospective first minister on those benches?
0:09:33 > 0:09:36I saw the way he behaved in Westminster as very similar
0:09:36 > 0:09:40to the way he's behaved as Scottish first minister.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45In Westminster, one thing about him was that his reason for being there
0:09:45 > 0:09:47was always very clear in his mind.
0:09:48 > 0:09:53He wasn't there to act as opposition to the serving government,
0:09:53 > 0:09:57he was there to represent Scotland in Westminster.
0:09:57 > 0:10:02What we now see in Scotland is that he's there
0:10:02 > 0:10:05to be in the Scottish Government,
0:10:05 > 0:10:09not to be in opposition to the Tories and Liberals in Westminster.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13That is the biggest difference, I would say,
0:10:13 > 0:10:15between him and Carwyn Jones.
0:10:15 > 0:10:20Carwyn Jones behaves like an opposition party in Westminster,
0:10:20 > 0:10:23rather than being in government in Wales.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27If I may add to that, if you look at other European countries,
0:10:27 > 0:10:30even though they have different opinions,
0:10:30 > 0:10:35they don't fall out with each other publicly.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39I'm sure they do in private, but in public, they respect each other.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43That's where the Welsh Government falls down,
0:10:43 > 0:10:45it behaves like an opposition party.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47David Cameron was here yesterday.
0:10:47 > 0:10:52Carwyn Jones said they'd had some very successful meetings.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56Does Alex Salmond have any lessons to teach Carwyn Jones?
0:10:56 > 0:10:59If I can respond to what's been said about Alex Salmond,
0:10:59 > 0:11:02I agree that Alex Salmond is unique.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06He always held everyone's attention at the House of Commons.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11To do that, you need to demand respect, even if you're not liked.
0:11:13 > 0:11:19My understanding of what you were referring to with Helen,
0:11:19 > 0:11:24to do with who was ready to become deputy first minister,
0:11:24 > 0:11:26rather than first minister,
0:11:27 > 0:11:33my understanding was that Ieuan had no party that would follow him.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Alex Salmond's situation was different.
0:11:38 > 0:11:44Even though Alex Salmond is charismatic anda strong leader,
0:11:44 > 0:11:48the biggest difference is that the SNP's strategy
0:11:48 > 0:11:53over the coming ten years is totally different to Plaid Cymru's.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56Plaid Cymru is trying to be the voice of Wales,
0:11:56 > 0:12:00through leading a strategy to the left of Labour.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04The SNP is the voice of Scotland,
0:12:04 > 0:12:06aiming straight down the middle.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12- That's much more important... - Can I just respond?
0:12:12 > 0:12:16It isn't right to say the party wasn't willing to follow Ieuan.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19That's not true because the vote wasn't taken.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22It's no secret that I was against the idea.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26Had a vote been taken, I'm sure people would have supported him.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28He's cleverer than you.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32Look at what he's doing in Scotland with the Royal Family.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36Most SNP supporters are probably republicans,
0:12:36 > 0:12:38but they don't say so publicly.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42They show respect for the Royal Family. You don't do that.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46- That's part of the strategy. - Individuals don't do that.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49Allow me to raise a related point.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Wait a moment. Wait a moment, Jon.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55This lack of respect.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58There was a lack of respect for David Cameron yesterday.
0:12:58 > 0:13:03Perhaps in contrast to what Rod said about foreign countries,
0:13:03 > 0:13:07these politicians get on well inside Carwyn's office.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10But Labour members looked down, didn't applaud,
0:13:10 > 0:13:13didn't rise to their feet as Cameron left,
0:13:13 > 0:13:15Bethan Jenkins heckled him.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18That isn't mature politics, is it?
0:13:21 > 0:13:23Well, no. I don't think it was...
0:13:23 > 0:13:25The thing you need to consider,
0:13:25 > 0:13:29if you want to talk about the majority of people,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32you need to be sure you don't insult people.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36Even though I myself am a republican,
0:13:36 > 0:13:41I never would have done what some people in Plaid Cymru did,
0:13:42 > 0:13:46because I would have thought about some of the people who support me
0:13:46 > 0:13:49who could maybe take offence to that.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53But what about the Prime Minister?
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Whatever you think of the Queen,
0:13:55 > 0:13:58the British Prime Minister is elected.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00You have to show him some respect.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03We need to operate on two levels.
0:14:03 > 0:14:08Had David Cameron come here to explain this commission,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10as everybody expected him to do,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13he had kept his nose out of devolved matters,
0:14:13 > 0:14:17perhaps AMs, I can't speak on their behalf...
0:14:17 > 0:14:21- Who told you what he was to say? - He told the press.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24It's true, Rod. You can look shocked if you like.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27If we can just return to Scotland.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31To what extent is the argument in Scotland over independence,
0:14:31 > 0:14:35and Alex Salmond is clear over independence,
0:14:35 > 0:14:37where your party isn't,
0:14:37 > 0:14:41even though people like Adam Price are calling on you to be clearer,
0:14:41 > 0:14:45to what extent will that argument shape the one here?
0:14:45 > 0:14:51One thing that's been consistent in opinion polls since devolution
0:14:51 > 0:14:54is that if you ask people whether they want the same powers
0:14:54 > 0:15:01as Scotland, they say yes, perhaps without knowing what they are.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04If people in Scotland decide to take it forward,
0:15:04 > 0:15:08as it said in the package, the fact that the SNP has a majority
0:15:08 > 0:15:12doesn't necessarily mean the SNP will win the referendum.
0:15:12 > 0:15:17Alex Salmond won't hold the referendum if he might not win.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20I think there'll be a knock-on effect.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23It's important we bear in mind other factors,
0:15:23 > 0:15:26the fact that the press is independent in Scotland.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31But does an honesty belong to the SNP which doesn't belong to your party?
0:15:31 > 0:15:34I don't think honesty is the word but clarity.
0:15:34 > 0:15:40Perhaps we haven't been clear. It's been in every manifesto.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42Perhaps we didn't make it prominent.
0:15:42 > 0:15:47I think the SNP have been very intelligent.
0:15:46 > 0:15:52They say, of course we support independence but we also discuss
0:15:52 > 0:15:54housing, schools, energy and much more.
0:15:54 > 0:16:00They put it out there, park it and then they can't be accused
0:16:00 > 0:16:03of not doing anything.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06I agree with Adam Price here. This is the time to be honest
0:16:06 > 0:16:08and to say that our dream as a party is independence.
0:16:08 > 0:16:12I and a lot of others inside the party have been doing that.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16And the leadership not listening?
0:16:16 > 0:16:18No, not listening because you can't blame individuals.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22I think that we have been a little bit too cautious in the party.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25I think that the way forward
0:16:25 > 0:16:29is to park is as the SNP's doing.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31We could say, of course we'll look at it in the future
0:16:31 > 0:16:34but today we are discussing housing or the welfare state.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38John, is there a problem for Labour here?
0:16:38 > 0:16:40Scotland will have much more powers.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44They can't have independence but they have have Devo Max.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48Isn't there a danger Welsh Labour are looking a bit conservative
0:16:48 > 0:16:51in the things they are asking for?
0:16:51 > 0:16:53The fact is that in 50 years,
0:16:53 > 0:16:59and since we started talking about devolution,
0:16:59 > 0:17:05Scotland has lead the way. Wales has followed suit.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09We never would have won the first referendum
0:17:09 > 0:17:11if Scotland hadn't done it first.
0:17:11 > 0:17:17Things are starting to form a pattern.
0:17:17 > 0:17:24You say that Welsh Labour have been more conservative,
0:17:24 > 0:17:30perhaps this reflects what the people of Wales are like,
0:17:30 > 0:17:35because they are more conservative with constitutional change.
0:17:35 > 0:17:41I'm not sure whether the Scots will support a referendum
0:17:41 > 0:17:45on independence or not.
0:17:45 > 0:17:50But I would never have thought that the SNP would win a majority,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52so I'm not sure.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57People understand that it's natural for the Labour Party to want
0:17:57 > 0:17:59to discuss this issue again.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02We've had the devolution, do we want to discuss this issue again?
0:18:02 > 0:18:06But it's impossible to avoid discussing the issue
0:18:06 > 0:18:10because of Scotland, but when so many people don't know
0:18:10 > 0:18:16if they want corporate tax or if they want a separate court system.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18Should he give leadership?
0:18:18 > 0:18:25We had leadership in the referendum, they didn't discuss it at all!
0:18:25 > 0:18:31If I was in Carwyn's shoes, I would do exactly the same thing.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35He is trying to work out the affect on Wales.
0:18:35 > 0:18:41This would be very complicated for Wales, especially financing it.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46It would be very easy to box you into a corner
0:18:46 > 0:18:52where you would be in a bad position financially.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Let's look at corporate tax for example,
0:18:55 > 0:19:01if Scotland and Northern Ireland can reduce it,
0:19:01 > 0:19:05and we can't, it's obvious that this isn't fair.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09If Carwyn isn't convinced that this isn't the right thing to do,
0:19:09 > 0:19:11he should say that
0:19:11 > 0:19:13The fact that he is a bit flaky, he comes out of these meetings
0:19:13 > 0:19:16looking like he can't make his mind up.
0:19:16 > 0:19:22Can we forget the pennies for a while and talk about the big money,
0:19:22 > 0:19:24which is the welfare state.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27It's going to cost £9 billion a year.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Adam Price needs to sit down for half an hour with Eurfyl ap Gwilym
0:19:31 > 0:19:37and he needs to explain why independence is an option
0:19:37 > 0:19:39during our time.
0:19:39 > 0:19:43I remember you saying that devolution wasn't an option either!
0:19:43 > 0:19:45I never said that.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47After '79, that is what you said.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51- I never said that! - You are wrong again!
0:19:51 > 0:19:53You are lying!
0:19:53 > 0:19:56Rod Richards, what did Cameron mean yesterday
0:19:56 > 0:20:01when he said that more power means more accountability?
0:20:01 > 0:20:06Do you see a scenario maybe where the Government in London
0:20:06 > 0:20:10will offer this place the power to vary taxes
0:20:10 > 0:20:14but Carwyn Jones saying, "No, we don't want it."
0:20:14 > 0:20:18That would suit David Cameron down to a tee
0:20:18 > 0:20:23if the Assembly had to raise money through taxes,
0:20:23 > 0:20:25income tax, or something similar.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29On one hand, Carwyn Jones wouldn't want to see it happen
0:20:29 > 0:20:33because there would be more accountability and responsibility
0:20:33 > 0:20:36with tax raising policies.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40Also, from David Cameron's point of view, he could sell that in England.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44He could say, "Everything you read about what's happening in Wales,
0:20:44 > 0:20:47"they have to pay for it themselves."
0:20:47 > 0:20:51If that scenario does arise, Jon Owen Jones, what would Carwyn Jones say?
0:20:51 > 0:20:55No thanks. I'll take the pocket money, but I don't want to raise it.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59The big problem we've had since the start of the discussion
0:20:59 > 0:21:02on devolution, is that Wales is relatively poor.
0:21:02 > 0:21:07The area of England which has the biggest population is very rich.
0:21:07 > 0:21:12What we need to do within the United Kingdom
0:21:12 > 0:21:18is to distribute the money so that it reaches the people who need it.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20But in order to do that,
0:21:20 > 0:21:24you need the support of the area with the big population,
0:21:24 > 0:21:32who will elect the MPs and keeping the balance is extremely difficult.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35Scotland has several advantages over Wales.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40The biggest advantage is that they can say, we've got money in the sea.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44We've got oil, so we can afford do things.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46Going back to 1997,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49one of the things that was said about devolution
0:21:49 > 0:21:53was that it would create a new confidence in Wales.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56That this idea of everyone picking on Wales,
0:21:56 > 0:21:59and those old, nasty Tories taking everything away,
0:21:59 > 0:22:01that that would disappear.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03But it seems to me that it hasn't happened.
0:22:03 > 0:22:09There's a sign of victimhood in what all the parties are saying.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11That is the great pity.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16It could have happened if the Welsh Government, the Assembly Government,
0:22:16 > 0:22:21during the last 12 years, had gone ahead and changed the things
0:22:21 > 0:22:26that are genuinely and vitally important like education and health.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29The difficult things. But they haven't done that.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31As Carwyn announced yesterday,
0:22:31 > 0:22:34they've stuck to things that are relatively simple to do.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37They haven't done the difficult things
0:22:37 > 0:22:39like reorganising local government.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41Everyone said it needed to be reorganised,
0:22:41 > 0:22:43but Carwyn hasn't done it.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46Rod has a point there. I think confidence has increased.
0:22:46 > 0:22:51But we've had over 10 years of devolution, we've had an opportunity
0:22:51 > 0:22:55when there was enough public money available and money from Europe,
0:22:55 > 0:22:57and what we haven't done is transform the economy
0:22:57 > 0:23:01to the extent that we can deal with some of the issues ourselves.
0:23:01 > 0:23:06And your leader was responsible for the economy for the last four years.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10He spent most of that time sorting out the problems in that department
0:23:10 > 0:23:13that had been managed by Labour for eight years.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15There's a new scheme in place now.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18If we can implement that scheme, we can transform the economy.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22Is there an obsession here with process instead of results?
0:23:22 > 0:23:27The process of devolution, the constitutional journey if you like.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Carwyn Jones yesterday talked about jobs
0:23:30 > 0:23:33but you don't need legislation to tackle jobs.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36He's been saying that for some years in one form or another.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39But is there a problem, specifically with your party,
0:23:39 > 0:23:44because you've been concentrating too much on the constitutional process?
0:23:44 > 0:23:47You just accused us of not being clear enough
0:23:47 > 0:23:50about what we want to do constitutionally.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53Now you're saying we've concentrated on it too much.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57But it's the process, whether it ends in independence or not,
0:23:57 > 0:24:00it's the process you concentrate on, isn't it?
0:24:00 > 0:24:03It's all about what will work,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06what will deliver, what will make things better.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09Although I agree with Jon about the fact that Wales is poor,
0:24:09 > 0:24:13why is Wales still poor after receiving so much European money?
0:24:13 > 0:24:15If we want to do things differently,
0:24:15 > 0:24:18we have to reach the point where we can pay for it.
0:24:18 > 0:24:23But we shouldn't do things differently just to be different.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25- No, you're right. - And we have done that.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29We have to end it there. We've run out of time. Thank you.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33That's it for tonight and for this series. Thanks for your company.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36We'll be back in September when the politicians will also be back
0:24:36 > 0:24:39after working hard over the holidays.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42- Until then, enjoy your holidays and good night.- Good night.