0:00:19 > 0:00:23Hello and welcome to the Welsh Government building.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25Tonight on CF99, a correct decision which wasn't easy.
0:00:25 > 0:00:29That's what Clegg said about getting into bed with the Conservatives.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33what effect will this have on the Welsh Liberal Democrats?
0:00:33 > 0:00:36As the Assembly Members settle back in the Chamber,
0:00:36 > 0:00:39what makes an effective Opposition party?
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Co-operation or attack?
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Three guests having their say tonight are:
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Aled Roberts AM from the Liberal Democrats,
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Elin Jones AM of Plaid Cymru
0:00:50 > 0:00:53and former Conservative Minister Rod Richards.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56Welcome to you all.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Nick Clegg's message to party supporters in Birmingham today
0:00:59 > 0:01:02was that the pain would be worth it in the end.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05He said the road would be difficult but the correct one.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07There would be no change in direction.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12Kirsty Williams has said that there were lessons to be learned
0:01:12 > 0:01:14from the One Wales coalition.
0:01:14 > 0:01:19She said the party must make it clear it is making a difference.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Elliw Gwawr reports from the conference.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Difficult times for the Liberal Democrats.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Their faces say it all.
0:01:27 > 0:01:32They were punished in last May's election for co-operating
0:01:32 > 0:01:34with the Conservatives.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37They had heavy losses in Scotland and England.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40Then they lost the alternative vote referendum.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45This has been a difficult year for the party
0:01:45 > 0:01:48but the atmosphere at the conference is very positive.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53If anyone was in doubt over what the fate of the party would be,
0:01:53 > 0:01:59this was Nick Clegg's message to them earlier today.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04We put aside party differences for the sake of the national interest.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07People before politics, nation before party.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10Let me tell you this:
0:02:10 > 0:02:14You don't play politics at a time of national crisis.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16You don't play politics with the economy
0:02:16 > 0:02:20and you never ever play politics with people's jobs.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24It's true that the Liberal Democrats have faced
0:02:24 > 0:02:27worse problems in their history and survived them.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31For the party in Wales, the challenge is more urgent
0:02:31 > 0:02:36as they face another electoral challenge next May.
0:02:36 > 0:02:42How should they go about avoiding what some predict will be a beating?
0:02:42 > 0:02:48I have been a member of the Liberal and Lib Dem parties for years.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51I remember much worse times than this.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55I remember getting one percentage point in an opinion poll.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59I can remember the Jeremy Thorpe scandal.
0:02:59 > 0:03:05Liberalism isn't a temporary thing, it is a deep-rooted ideology
0:03:05 > 0:03:08and it is at the hearts of people in Wales.
0:03:08 > 0:03:13People can see that this party has belief.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17When you are in a coalition, sometimes you have to compromise.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19That doesn't please us or the voters.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24We had some very bad results in May,
0:03:24 > 0:03:26but in my constituency it was quite positive.
0:03:26 > 0:03:32People know how strong the party is in my constituency.
0:03:32 > 0:03:39Next year, voters will look at what people have to offer locally
0:03:39 > 0:03:43for the council elections.
0:03:43 > 0:03:50People won't be looking at the wider British issues as much.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53The reaction on people's doorsteps has been positive.
0:03:53 > 0:03:58People can see that what we do is making a difference in their lives.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02We will see next May whether or not this is a temporary problem
0:04:02 > 0:04:07or whether it is a sign of a serious drop in support for the party.
0:04:10 > 0:04:16Aled Roberts, the truth is that a beating is on the cards.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Things may have improved by the next general election.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23But the next year is going to be very difficult.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25It will be difficult
0:04:25 > 0:04:29but I'm sure you predicted that ahead of the Assembly elections.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33We must accept responsibility. We're part of a coalition.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36The party voted in favour of that.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40There are difficult decisions being made in Westminster.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43But I think our record,
0:04:43 > 0:04:49especially in the County Councils, is a very strong one.
0:04:49 > 0:04:55We have to show the electorate what we have done in their area.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00Looking at the party's history in the last 20 years or so,
0:05:00 > 0:05:04you have been moving forward ward by ward
0:05:04 > 0:05:09and you have been winning wards and leading councils gradually.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11A lot of that is long-term and slow growth
0:05:11 > 0:05:14and a lot of that has been lost?
0:05:14 > 0:05:21No, the work that we have put in is long-term.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25We can look at the individual records of those councillors.
0:05:25 > 0:05:31I believe results in Wales will be better than you anticipate.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34Elin Jones, Nick Clegg has tried to put
0:05:34 > 0:05:41some clear yellow water between them and the Tories.
0:05:41 > 0:05:46You did the same as the little brother in the coalition.
0:05:46 > 0:05:51Kirsty Williams said lessons can be learned from the coalition in Wales.
0:05:51 > 0:05:59She said the smaller party has to trumpet its achievements.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02Is that possible in coalition?
0:06:02 > 0:06:05Can you differentiate?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08Plaid Cymru tried to do it during the election
0:06:08 > 0:06:13but we didn't do it well enough.
0:06:13 > 0:06:19We achieved so much in our period in Government.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23It was important for Plaid Cymru and Wales.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28We held the referendum on further powers in Wales.
0:06:28 > 0:06:33That was one of the main goals we had in mind.
0:06:33 > 0:06:38If we look at the reasons the Lib Dems went into coalition,
0:06:38 > 0:06:43for example, the AV referendum, they lost that.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46They can't take anything out of that.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50When you share power, can you see now
0:06:50 > 0:06:56whether there was wisdom in attacking the bigger brother?
0:06:56 > 0:07:01Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party in Wales did fight the election
0:07:01 > 0:07:08over our individual records and what we wanted to achieve.
0:07:08 > 0:07:13Plaid Cymru didn't do that successfully enough.
0:07:13 > 0:07:18But we did achieve a lot of what we wanted to do during that time.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22We look back on it with pride.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26I'm not sure whether the Liberal Democrats will be able to look back
0:07:26 > 0:07:30with pride on tuition fees and the AV referendum and so on.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33Is the problem, especially for the Welsh Liberal Democrats,
0:07:33 > 0:07:40that many things the Liberal Democrats are taking credit for
0:07:40 > 0:07:46are things that are only taking place in England?
0:07:46 > 0:07:51Perhaps all we can see that we get from the Liberal Democrats
0:07:51 > 0:07:53in Westminster is cuts in spending?
0:07:53 > 0:08:01I don't think they will be able to differentiate their fate
0:08:01 > 0:08:04from what is going to happen in Westminster.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08Listening to Nick Clegg and Kirsty Williams today,
0:08:08 > 0:08:12you can tell Kirsty Williams isn't a fan of the coalition,
0:08:12 > 0:08:14but it is there.
0:08:14 > 0:08:20Their speeches have been quite similar in several ways.
0:08:20 > 0:08:28They are trained to defend being in a Coalition Government.
0:08:28 > 0:08:33Then they are trying to look at the party's contribution
0:08:33 > 0:08:36towards Government policies.
0:08:36 > 0:08:42Difficult decisions need to be made and, at the end of the day,
0:08:42 > 0:08:46the price is winning the election.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49That is the case, if the policy works.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52If you look at the IMF, they have been saying that
0:08:52 > 0:08:57all the measures we have taken to save the country aren't working.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01Nick Clegg and Vince Cable are trying to forecast
0:09:01 > 0:09:05whether these measures will work in the long-term.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10That is how they sold the policies.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14What if they're right about what they said before the election
0:09:14 > 0:09:18as opposed to what they have been saying now that this is a mistake?
0:09:18 > 0:09:19That is political opinion.
0:09:19 > 0:09:26We will see in time whether they made the right decision.
0:09:26 > 0:09:30These measures are affecting people in Wales
0:09:30 > 0:09:34such as changes to income tax.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38It is difficult for a minority party in any coalition.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42What is important is that the minority party
0:09:42 > 0:09:47accepts responsibility for the difficult decisions
0:09:47 > 0:09:54and I think Plaid Cymru tried to avoid that.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56Every Government is a coalition.
0:09:56 > 0:10:01If you look back over the last 30 years,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04you had Brownites and Blairites.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06We had pro Europe and anti Europe with John Major.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09There are always two sides to it.
0:10:09 > 0:10:15The Liberals don't have experience of being in Government
0:10:15 > 0:10:21and then in a fractured Cabinet.
0:10:21 > 0:10:26It was predicted that Nick Clegg would face a difficult time.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30Nick Clegg said that people hadn't turned on their leader
0:10:30 > 0:10:32when he was on stage.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36They haven't turned on him, the party is behind him.
0:10:36 > 0:10:42I think several people have been making speeches
0:10:42 > 0:10:47which may be considered as setting things up
0:10:47 > 0:10:55for when Nick Clegg may not be in such a strong position.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00But he was speaking to the Liberal Democrats today.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05If I can return to the point on whether the Liberal Democrats
0:11:05 > 0:11:09and Tories have got it right in terms of their economic policy,
0:11:09 > 0:11:13there is now independent evidence from the IMF which shows
0:11:13 > 0:11:17British economic growth is lower
0:11:17 > 0:11:23than that which Vince Cable predicted.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27There is a basic weakness in the economy.
0:11:27 > 0:11:35At the moment, the injection of public investment isn't working.
0:11:35 > 0:11:41It isn't coming from the Government in Westminster
0:11:41 > 0:11:48and that endangers our economic status according to the IMF.
0:11:48 > 0:11:53Last week's IMF report said that they were more confident
0:11:53 > 0:11:55in Britain's economic policies
0:11:55 > 0:11:58compared to other Western European countries.
0:11:58 > 0:12:03- Germany? I don't think so. - That's what the report said.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06The evenings are closing in and the politicians are back in Cardiff Bay.
0:12:06 > 0:12:11The opposition could have a number of opportunities
0:12:11 > 0:12:14to have a bash at the Government.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Will they? Carl Roberts reports.
0:12:25 > 0:12:31Autumn, a time to light a fire and play conkers.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33As the leaves are falling,
0:12:33 > 0:12:38the Government will announce a legislative programme
0:12:38 > 0:12:42and try to gain support for its budget.
0:12:42 > 0:12:49There are a number of political games of conkers on the horizon.
0:12:49 > 0:12:56Five years ago, Rhodri Government had a tough time gaining support.
0:12:56 > 0:13:01The opposition parties threatened to form a coalition at the time.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08The Government is expected to announce a draft report
0:13:08 > 0:13:10within a fortnight.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13But will the opposition parties work together with them?
0:13:16 > 0:13:24I don't see these politicians working together for several years.
0:13:24 > 0:13:30I think the Conservatives have quite a right-wing leader
0:13:30 > 0:13:35and Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats
0:13:35 > 0:13:40are trying to position themselves as left of centre-left parties.
0:13:40 > 0:13:47I don't think it will be easy for them to co-operate.
0:13:47 > 0:13:53But don't politicians have a responsibility to work together?
0:13:53 > 0:13:59To me, what matters is patients, not the figures.
0:13:59 > 0:14:06We should start talking about patience and the services
0:14:06 > 0:14:11which are available and the ones which may disappear.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14I don't think it is a problem
0:14:14 > 0:14:19that the Government doesn't have a majority.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23The other parties might be able to unite
0:14:23 > 0:14:29in order to get policies through.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33At the same time, where things may not fit
0:14:33 > 0:14:37into the Government's agenda, that is where it is important
0:14:37 > 0:14:40that the other parties should work together despite their differences.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44The Government will be able to use full legislative powers
0:14:44 > 0:14:47for the first time within a few months
0:14:47 > 0:14:51and the Government will set out what they wish to achieve.
0:14:51 > 0:14:58Once the political argument is out of the way,
0:14:58 > 0:15:02I think all parties will have an influence on legislation.
0:15:02 > 0:15:09There's nothing partisan in the legislation, some say it's anadine.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13When you play conkers, the idea is to break the other person's weapon.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17Although everyone might not agree, politics isn't a game.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26You are back in opposition.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31Has your experience of being in power changed the way
0:15:31 > 0:15:37you now operate on the opposition benches?
0:15:37 > 0:15:39I don't think so.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44In Government, we wanted to do what was best for the people of Wales
0:15:44 > 0:15:49and that is what we will do as an opposition party.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51I don't foresee there will be a time
0:15:51 > 0:15:56when opposition parties will work together officially.
0:15:56 > 0:16:03There will be occasions when we are united against the Government
0:16:03 > 0:16:07and other times when we aren't.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10But you have seen the other side of the fence.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13Do you now know where to attack Carwyn Jones?
0:16:13 > 0:16:17Will you behave differently?
0:16:17 > 0:16:20I could see Carwyn Jones' weaknesses in Government
0:16:20 > 0:16:22and I can see them outside Government.
0:16:22 > 0:16:28I think he has a lack of dynamism, inspiration and passion
0:16:28 > 0:16:29to deliver for Wales.
0:16:29 > 0:16:35Since we returned to the Assembly after the election,
0:16:35 > 0:16:38we've seen that he hasn't looked pragmatically
0:16:38 > 0:16:43at devolving important powers that are important to Wales,
0:16:43 > 0:16:46powers in areas such as broadcasting and energy.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50We are anxious to see those decisions being made.
0:16:50 > 0:16:55Carwyn often prefers to see Tory or Lib Dem ministers
0:16:55 > 0:16:57in Westminster with these powers.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59What is the most effective way to behave?
0:16:59 > 0:17:03There are two issues here.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05I will return to Plaid Cymru soon
0:17:05 > 0:17:08because that side will be very interesting over the coming months
0:17:08 > 0:17:09for various reasons.
0:17:09 > 0:17:14From a Tory standpoint, it is important they hunt in packs.
0:17:14 > 0:17:19All of the members know exactly what the leader is aiming for.
0:17:19 > 0:17:25When they come into the Senedd, everybody brings their question.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28At the moment, people aren't listening to what's being said.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33They just want to have their voices heard.
0:17:33 > 0:17:39It is important that the Tories listen to the answers.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43If Carwyn Jones says something, and they spot an opportunity,
0:17:43 > 0:17:48they should drop their question and go after it.
0:17:48 > 0:17:53For Plaid Cymru, it will all be about the sideshow.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57They will have leadership candidates asking questions.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00You will have someone like Dafydd Elis Thomas,
0:18:00 > 0:18:02who wants to be part of the government,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05he'll be asking questions to suit that.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08You will have others who are looking to go after independence.
0:18:08 > 0:18:12Elin Jones and her supporters will be asking questions
0:18:12 > 0:18:17that go along that route.
0:18:17 > 0:18:23It is almost inevitable that this Government will lose a few votes.
0:18:23 > 0:18:28They could've lost one on maternity services this week.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31The Government has to prepare a Budget.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34It can't afford to lose that vote.
0:18:34 > 0:18:40Will it be possible to get consensus between two or three parties?
0:18:40 > 0:18:45Or do you think there will be such a big difference of opinion
0:18:45 > 0:18:47that Labour will find it very difficult?
0:18:47 > 0:18:52It depends what attitude the Labour Party take.
0:18:52 > 0:18:58I think they could reach consensus if they discuss with other parties.
0:18:58 > 0:19:04I won't set out to oppose them, and neither will Plaid Cymru,
0:19:04 > 0:19:07but if Labour are hard-headed
0:19:07 > 0:19:12and they pursue their own manifesto agenda without discussion,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15they can expect opposition.
0:19:15 > 0:19:20I sensed that I could see some kind of shopping lists.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24It was interesting to see Ieuan Wyn Jones
0:19:24 > 0:19:27mentioning the need to increase spending on economic development
0:19:27 > 0:19:30because of the economic downturn.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34Perhaps the Liberal Democrats would choose education.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37There are areas in which they could secure support.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40And the Labour Party is aware of its own situation.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44They will have to respond to one party or another
0:19:44 > 0:19:48to get their budget through.
0:19:48 > 0:19:53I have been in coalition with Labour and the Tories in Wrexham
0:19:53 > 0:20:00before now and this is the political situation we are in at the Senedd.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04Elin, is there a danger that you as a party will be naval gazing
0:20:04 > 0:20:06rather than attacking?
0:20:06 > 0:20:10You will be holding a leadership race,
0:20:10 > 0:20:12you yourself are a candidate,
0:20:12 > 0:20:15and that will be a distraction for your party?
0:20:15 > 0:20:20Assembly Members such as myself have day-to-day jobs to do.
0:20:20 > 0:20:26Mine is to be in opposition and to challenge the Government.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28I have decided to take on a second job
0:20:28 > 0:20:30and become a candidate for the leadership race.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34That will take place outside all of this.
0:20:34 > 0:20:40It's clear that Plaid Cymru has a leader for the time being
0:20:40 > 0:20:42and the work that Ieuan has been doing,
0:20:42 > 0:20:46challenging Carwyn Jones on the Budget and devolution,
0:20:46 > 0:20:51he has been leading that debate.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55Our current leader will continue in that job
0:20:55 > 0:20:57until the new leader is appointed in March,
0:20:57 > 0:21:00whoever he or she may be.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03Rod Richards, you have described the Senedd before now
0:21:03 > 0:21:07as a pussycat parlour.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09Pussycat parlour.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13That there wasn't enough confrontation at the Assembly.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17Is ding-dong politics what people actually want to hear?
0:21:17 > 0:21:22Or is there an appetite for consensus politics?
0:21:22 > 0:21:26There is a world of difference between confrontational politics
0:21:26 > 0:21:28and ding-dong politics.
0:21:28 > 0:21:33We have had too much consensus here and there hasn't been
0:21:33 > 0:21:39a realistic opposition to the Labour Government or the coalition
0:21:39 > 0:21:42for 12 years,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46and that is one of the Assembly's biggest issues.
0:21:46 > 0:21:51In my opinion, that is why the Assembly hasn't delivered.
0:21:51 > 0:21:56There are plenty of opportunities for the opposition parties
0:21:56 > 0:22:01to raise issues over our disgraceful public services.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Allow me to raise a point over one thing that could
0:22:04 > 0:22:07change the dynamics here after the election.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10If the Westminster coalition Government
0:22:10 > 0:22:12decided to change the electoral system here,
0:22:12 > 0:22:17they could reduce the number of constituency members to 30
0:22:17 > 0:22:21and 30 regional list members, possibly national list.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24There seems to have been a lot of talk about that.
0:22:24 > 0:22:30- Do you expect that to happen? - I'm not aware of that talk, no.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34We haven't heard anything within our party.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36I'm not sure whether they, whoever they are,
0:22:36 > 0:22:44will be able to achieve that before the next Assembly election.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47There will be practical considerations
0:22:47 > 0:22:49for the different parties,
0:22:49 > 0:22:54considering here are 30 electoral regions in Westminster
0:22:54 > 0:22:59and 40 in the Assembly and they have different boundaries.
0:22:59 > 0:23:04I think we will need to look at national lists
0:23:04 > 0:23:07rather than regional ones.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09I think it's a chance for us to look at that.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13We would have to consider the whole picture.
0:23:13 > 0:23:19It's more naval gazing and it won't make any difference to this place.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Thank you all for joining us.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25There will be plenty to discuss over the coming weeks.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27That's all from CF99 tonight.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30We will be back at 10.00pm next week.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33I hope you will join us then.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36- Until then, goodnight. - Goodnight.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd