0:00:00 > 0:00:00.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23Stay with us for discussion and questioning and a lot of fun.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26Tonight, lessons for Labour on Merseyside.
0:00:26 > 0:00:33How can the power of the party in Wales revive the UK party
0:00:33 > 0:00:36and as Scotland creeps towards independence,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38what's the future of devolution?
0:00:38 > 0:00:43We are joined by the deputy Agriculture Minister, Alun Davies,
0:00:43 > 0:00:47and Alun Cairns from the Conservatives and Jonathan Edwards.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49He's from Plaid Cymru.
0:00:49 > 0:00:54I'm not Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, I am me and that was the message
0:00:54 > 0:00:59from Ed Miliband, who is in Liverpool this week with his party.
0:00:59 > 0:01:04The little brother believes he is opening a new chapter in the history
0:01:04 > 0:01:10of the party, but is there lessons to be learnt from the party in Wales?
0:01:19 > 0:01:23The docks area in Liverpool has been transformed in the last few years.
0:01:23 > 0:01:29The old port has been revived with shops and restaurants.
0:01:29 > 0:01:35The Labour Party hopes it can revive the party
0:01:35 > 0:01:39and attract the voters once again.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43It was a clear message in the speech of Ed Miliband.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48A new bargain in our economy shows that reward is linked to effort,
0:01:48 > 0:01:53a new bargain based on values so we can pay our way in the world,
0:01:53 > 0:01:57a new bargain to ensure responsibility from top to bottom.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01It will be tough to change Britain.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03But, I'm up for the fight.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07But while the UK party tries to find out what went wrong
0:02:07 > 0:02:15in the 2010 General Election, the Welsh members here feel victorious
0:02:15 > 0:02:20after they increased their vote in May.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27At the Welsh evening at the conference,
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Ed Milliband said Carwyn Jones is preparing the ground
0:02:30 > 0:02:36for a Labour government in Westminster.
0:02:36 > 0:02:44On every measure Welsh Labour won the election.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48And importantly for the party it sent a message across these islands,
0:02:48 > 0:02:52a message that, despite the outcome of the last General Election
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Labour is back in the saddle.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58It's setting out another vision to people right across the UK.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03We are doing very well in Wales under Carwyn Jones.
0:03:03 > 0:03:08All the problems we have had in Wales,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11we have dealt with them.
0:03:11 > 0:03:17Under Ed Miliband sometimes we feel like he stands back.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20It's important to create strong principles
0:03:20 > 0:03:25and build more detailed policies.
0:03:25 > 0:03:30What we need to start with is to increase confidence in the party.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34We need to show what Labour can do.
0:03:34 > 0:03:39The opinion polls show Labour is doing better than the Conservatives.
0:03:39 > 0:03:45We have to send out key messages
0:03:45 > 0:03:52that only Labour can protect our public services.
0:03:52 > 0:03:56There might be another three-and-a-half years
0:03:56 > 0:03:59until the General Election, but as Carwyn Jones announced
0:03:59 > 0:04:01his programme of work,
0:04:01 > 0:04:06there are signs that some within the party are looking towards
0:04:06 > 0:04:11Welsh Labour to help them lead the party back to power in Westminster.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15Alun Davies, you were not in Liverpool,
0:04:15 > 0:04:18but I'm sure you listened to the speech.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22A lot of people said there were interesting ideas in there,
0:04:22 > 0:04:25but it did not sound like the speech of somebody
0:04:25 > 0:04:28who would lead Labour back to power.
0:04:28 > 0:04:33It was nice to hear somebody talking about personal values.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37You don't hear it very often.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42I was very happy to hear him talking about his values.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45And how his values would lead him
0:04:45 > 0:04:50while we are in opposition in Westminster.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54But as a party in power here in Cardiff
0:04:54 > 0:05:01we are showing how our values can lead the party in government.
0:05:03 > 0:05:10If I had just lost my job or worried about my job or losing my house
0:05:10 > 0:05:15I wouldn't want to hear about this man's values.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20I would want to know what Labour would do to save my house.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23That is what we are doing here in power in Cardiff.
0:05:23 > 0:05:29We are showing how the party can protect jobs
0:05:29 > 0:05:34and protect the public sector and invest in the economy.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37We are doing that here.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42We also need to work with the party in Westminster
0:05:42 > 0:05:45to show leadership across Britain.
0:05:45 > 0:05:50How important is it for Labour on a UK level that this Government
0:05:50 > 0:05:57here in Wales is a successful one?
0:05:58 > 0:06:02I think it is becoming more and more important.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07We have already heard that doctors have said that they would
0:06:07 > 0:06:10rather work in the NHS here than across the border.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15As the success of the Government here strengthens the economy
0:06:15 > 0:06:19and strengthens public services, I think more people will come.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21It's an opportunity for us in Wales.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25We hear very often about people complaining
0:06:25 > 0:06:31and this is an opportunity to show what we can do in Wales.
0:06:31 > 0:06:35Jonathan Edwards, Ed Milliband said good businesses
0:06:35 > 0:06:40would be rewarded and volunteers too.
0:06:40 > 0:06:46Is it right for politicians to say things like that?
0:06:46 > 0:06:50Ed Milliband comes across as a nice man.
0:06:50 > 0:06:55I don't know him personally.
0:06:55 > 0:07:00He spent most of the conference apologising for their poor record.
0:07:00 > 0:07:04I am not sure whether that was the best thing to do.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07Labour is not going to win the next general election
0:07:07 > 0:07:10with Ed Miliband in charge.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14The reason for that is that the economy has been dominating
0:07:14 > 0:07:19the political agenda during the last government
0:07:19 > 0:07:23and it will continue to do so in the next few years.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27The main two men in Labour were advisers to Gordon Brown.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30They haven't got an economic policy.
0:07:30 > 0:07:36But they have brought the plan B forward haven't they, Alun Cairns?
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Ed Balls has underlined that in his speech.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43They are in a very difficult situation,
0:07:43 > 0:07:46because every call they've made on the economy recently,
0:07:46 > 0:07:50they are not sure whether they are apologising for the mess
0:07:50 > 0:07:53in the economy, and they don't know what to do
0:07:53 > 0:07:59apart from vote against the cuts the Government is making in Westminster.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03They are in a difficult position.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06If we go back to IDS, he found it difficult
0:08:06 > 0:08:12to relate to the public and that is Ed Milliband's problem as well.
0:08:12 > 0:08:18But is this deja vu, the Conservatives were out of power
0:08:18 > 0:08:24and you tried William Hague and Michael Howard and IDS,
0:08:24 > 0:08:28it was one after another?
0:08:28 > 0:08:32Does it matter who the Labour Party leader is, does it just take time?
0:08:32 > 0:08:36That's true.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39There was an article in the Times this week
0:08:39 > 0:08:43talking about the people deciding the future of William Hague
0:08:43 > 0:08:47after he became the leader of the Conservative Party,
0:08:47 > 0:08:53but the people who criticised him then support him and his style.
0:08:53 > 0:08:58I think it's very difficult for the Labour Party.
0:08:58 > 0:09:04I don't think Ed Milliband can lift the party's morale.
0:09:04 > 0:09:08Do you think they chose the wrong brother?
0:09:10 > 0:09:14I was in Liverpool and David Miliband had more attention than his brother.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18He was only there for one night. All the cameras followed him.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22There was charisma. There was a fuss surrounding him.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26You create that because you followed him around.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29You create the story and then report it.
0:09:29 > 0:09:34Oh no! There was a buzz! He was marching like a soldier.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38We all know what happens in these places.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42Would you prefer to have had David Miliband as leader?
0:09:42 > 0:09:45I voted for David Milliband.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47The election is over.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52It's been over for a year and we have to move on.
0:09:52 > 0:09:56It's not always easy, but you have to do it.
0:09:56 > 0:10:01When we look at the larger picture in Britain at the moment,
0:10:01 > 0:10:07when I look at Ed Miliband and look at where we are at the moment,
0:10:07 > 0:10:13not back to IDS or William Hague but I think back to Gordon Brown.
0:10:13 > 0:10:19When he was leading the West' response to the economic crisis.
0:10:21 > 0:10:26We both got the G8 in London when President Obama came over here
0:10:26 > 0:10:30to listen to what Gordon Brown had to say.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34It's obvious now when you look at the eurozone and what is happening,
0:10:34 > 0:10:38it's lack of leadership and I think that will be
0:10:38 > 0:10:43a big political subject in the next few years.
0:10:43 > 0:10:49Where do you stand on this apology business?
0:10:49 > 0:10:54Do you think there's been too much of it and Labour needs to apologise?
0:10:54 > 0:10:57I agreed with every word he said,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00but I don't think it's the best political tactic.
0:11:00 > 0:11:06When you talk about lessons from Wales, the Labour Party strategists
0:11:06 > 0:11:12look at the community belt around London, that is the key target.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15The same programme will not be put forward
0:11:15 > 0:11:19in the General Election as here in Wales.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22I don't think that is going to be relevant.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27It's an interesting debate now,
0:11:27 > 0:11:31because there is a different party in charge in London and Cardiff.
0:11:31 > 0:11:37We see a difference between Labour in Cardiff and London.
0:11:37 > 0:11:43Ed Miliband said this week that tuition fees would be introduced
0:11:43 > 0:11:48and Labour would charge £6,000, but why don't they do it in Wales?
0:11:48 > 0:11:53There are differences between the parties in Westminster and Cardiff.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55You know and I know
0:11:55 > 0:12:00and we all know that in a devolved country
0:12:00 > 0:12:04we are going to have different policies here.
0:12:04 > 0:12:08Yes, but it's going to be hard to do that in the long term.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11What is the problem with that?
0:12:11 > 0:12:17The point about the fees is interesting,
0:12:17 > 0:12:23because what they are going to do is introduce the Tory light programme.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25What kind of message is that?
0:12:25 > 0:12:30They will treble tuition fees in England and Labour will double it.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33What kind of message is that?
0:12:33 > 0:12:37I don't see Ed Miliband as a Tory light.
0:12:37 > 0:12:43He's so far to the left. He's so far to the left.
0:12:43 > 0:12:48By rewarding people who volunteer in the Big Society?
0:12:48 > 0:12:50He can see the message from Cameron
0:12:50 > 0:12:54and he can see it is being positively received.
0:12:54 > 0:13:00If we look at his speech and what he said about business,
0:13:00 > 0:13:03obviously he is not on top of his game with business.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06When the economy is in a difficult period
0:13:06 > 0:13:09you have to support and push businesses.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12Not take the attitude he takes at the moment.
0:13:12 > 0:13:16The success of the SNP in Scotland and the promise of a referendum
0:13:16 > 0:13:20on independence has caused a headache for politicians in the UK.
0:13:20 > 0:13:25How do you fight back with regard to message and heritage?
0:13:25 > 0:13:29What will be the result of the referendum?
0:13:29 > 0:13:34What will the effect of independence be on the UK?
0:13:34 > 0:13:40These are difficult questions, but Karl Roberts enjoys a challenge.
0:13:40 > 0:13:46In Scotland, the SNP wants to hold a referendum on independence.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50It's a decision that has caused controversy.
0:13:50 > 0:13:56Murdo Fraser has said that the image needs to be changed,
0:13:56 > 0:14:03while Labour says it has changed its policies to strengthen its leader.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07In Wales, David Melding says the Conservatives here
0:14:07 > 0:14:10the brainy deputy Presiding Officer,
0:14:10 > 0:14:15should consider changing their name and try to be more independent.
0:14:15 > 0:14:19Plaid Cymru, they want us to look at how practical
0:14:19 > 0:14:22independence would be for Wales.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25Should Welsh Labour in Government try to distance
0:14:25 > 0:14:29itself from the national party?
0:14:29 > 0:14:33That's within the next few weeks and we'll know the commission
0:14:33 > 0:14:37that looks at the future of devolution in Wales.
0:14:37 > 0:14:43That commission is expected to report back in two years' time.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47Alright?
0:14:47 > 0:14:50You went over two seconds!
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Jonathan Edwards, you have written a lot about this,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56calling on the other parties to devolve more
0:14:56 > 0:15:00with regard to structure, but that could be bad news for you?
0:15:00 > 0:15:05I think that is the natural development from devolution.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09There are two dynamics in politics. Especially the Celtic countries.
0:15:09 > 0:15:15Now you have the traditional left-right dynamic
0:15:15 > 0:15:19and the dynamic between the unionists and the nationalism.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23The political structures we have to respond to those two.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27I don't think the structure we have at the moment responds to that.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31You would lose your USP then as a Wales-only party?
0:15:31 > 0:15:35The parties brand themselves as Welsh anyway.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39I've got strong feelings about the use of that term.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42They aren't really Welsh parties.
0:15:42 > 0:15:48If they brand themselves like that, then they should devolve completely.
0:15:48 > 0:15:52Alun Cairns, David Melding wants to rename your party
0:15:52 > 0:15:54and call it Forwards.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57Nick Bourne wasn't keen. What do you think?
0:15:57 > 0:16:00David Melding talked about this a few years ago,
0:16:00 > 0:16:04when the Conservative Party in Wales was having a difficult time.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07They were trying to relate to the public.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11I am very glad that that phase has passed.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14It's important we remain relevant and positive.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16I think we should keep the name.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19If the Welsh Conservative Party wants to change the name,
0:16:19 > 0:16:24it could, because it is independent.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29David Cameron is eager to give people as much freedom as possible.
0:16:29 > 0:16:33Going back to devolution, I'm not necessarily against devolving
0:16:33 > 0:16:35more powers to Cardiff Bay,
0:16:35 > 0:16:41but we have had a referendum and constitutional changes recently.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45We do not see the Government in Cardiff Bay
0:16:45 > 0:16:48responding to and using that power.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51We're asking for more devolution all the time,
0:16:51 > 0:16:53it's fine when it is needed,
0:16:53 > 0:16:56but even when they have the power they don't use it.
0:16:56 > 0:17:01Alun Davies, on this question of political structure,
0:17:01 > 0:17:06are you a fan of the changes you are seeing in Scotland,
0:17:06 > 0:17:10where the party leader actually leads the party
0:17:10 > 0:17:12and is not just a member of the troupe,
0:17:12 > 0:17:14and decisions are made locally?
0:17:14 > 0:17:17Or do you think the structure is fine as it is?
0:17:17 > 0:17:20On the point of what's happening in Scotland,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24I've been thinking about how it will affect us in Wales,
0:17:24 > 0:17:26and how we should respond,
0:17:26 > 0:17:33I can't think of any occasion where the party in Westminster,
0:17:33 > 0:17:39the British party, has told us that we have to do and what we can't do.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42We make policies for Wales in Wales.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Our Assembly is in Wales and we make policy for Wales.
0:17:45 > 0:17:50- And we have a leader like Carwyn. - But he isn't party leader in Wales.
0:17:50 > 0:17:57We have a leader like Carwyn Jones and he has the mandate to do that.
0:17:57 > 0:18:02- It's all semantics. - What Alun Davies says it wrong.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Oh! Thanks for that!
0:18:05 > 0:18:07In Wales you want to reform the Barnett formula
0:18:07 > 0:18:12but Ed Balls is against that. He's the one that would have to deliver.
0:18:12 > 0:18:17What you don't understand is the Barnett formula is a British policy.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21It's a Treasury policy.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24If you want to change it, you have to change it on the UK level.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27What I'm talking about, maybe you didn't understand,
0:18:27 > 0:18:31is when we talk about reform of the NHS for example,
0:18:31 > 0:18:36we can do that in Wales and nobody in England tells us how to do it.
0:18:36 > 0:18:41Why promise to reform the formula in your Assembly manifesto
0:18:41 > 0:18:45knowing full well that Ed Balls opposes it?
0:18:45 > 0:18:48Because that is the policy of the Government here in Cardiff.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51We need to discuss with the Treasury,
0:18:51 > 0:18:55like I hold discussions with Defra and others in Westminster,
0:18:55 > 0:18:57to change their policies.
0:18:57 > 0:19:02But there is a question, a difficult one that sounds rather technical,
0:19:02 > 0:19:06Labour members and journalists in Scotland
0:19:06 > 0:19:08tell me that Labour suffered
0:19:08 > 0:19:13because it based its organisation on the Westminster government.
0:19:13 > 0:19:19On the Westminster constituencies, which differ to Parliamentary ones.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22The same thing will happen in Wales.
0:19:24 > 0:19:30What should the unit be? Assembly or Parliamentary constituency?
0:19:30 > 0:19:33I would say that they are just as important.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36It's not often I agree with Alun Davies,
0:19:36 > 0:19:41I think it's semantics when you talk about who the leader is in Wales.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44Whether it be Carwyn Jones, Ed Miliband,
0:19:44 > 0:19:48Andrew RT Davies or David Cameron.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52Because to be honest in the Conservatives and the Labour Party,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56you have the freedom to form your own policies
0:19:56 > 0:20:00on education on the NHS and any devolved matter.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03If it's semantics, is it symbolic?
0:20:03 > 0:20:06No. I think it's a media construct.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09I have to go back to the Barnett cormula,
0:20:09 > 0:20:12I must respond to the point that was made,
0:20:12 > 0:20:16because the only people stopping the reform of that is Scotland.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19Plaid Cymru works closely with the SNP in Westminster.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21I didn't know the SNP was so powerful!
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Plaid Cymru works closely with the SNP in Westminster
0:20:24 > 0:20:29but you need to influence them so they can accept policy change.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32On the point of the Labour Party in Scotland,
0:20:32 > 0:20:36in the changes they are introducing now in terms of the leadership race,
0:20:36 > 0:20:41they are going to cast their nets far and wide
0:20:41 > 0:20:44to include European MPs.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48Will Plaid Cymru do the same as you look for a new leader?
0:20:48 > 0:20:50You would be eligible to stand!
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Well, I don't think so!
0:20:52 > 0:20:55I think the political focus of Plaid Cymru is clear.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57On the institution behind us.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00It's important that the political leader
0:21:00 > 0:21:02is somebody who can talk in this chamber.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05I don't think there's any doubt about that.
0:21:05 > 0:21:10If I may raise an abstract question, theological, even.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14If Scotland was to vote in favour of independence,
0:21:14 > 0:21:16and becomes independent,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19Wouldn't you have to look again
0:21:19 > 0:21:23at the settlement between Wales, England and Northern Ireland?
0:21:23 > 0:21:28I'm sure there would be a debate if that happened in Scotland,
0:21:28 > 0:21:33but the Welsh and English economy are so closely linked.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36The culture, not only the economic culture,
0:21:36 > 0:21:41but policy culture, is closer between Wales and England,
0:21:41 > 0:21:47so there is a big difference in image in Scotland and England.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53It's totally different to the relationship
0:21:53 > 0:21:56between Wales and England.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00It will be a debate, but I'm not worried about it.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03Ed Miliband has said tonight that he will wake up
0:22:03 > 0:22:06to that debate in Scotland
0:22:06 > 0:22:10and attack the importance of the union in his opinion.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14David Cameron has also said that he thinks it's important.
0:22:14 > 0:22:19Have politicians south of Scotland been sleeping on this issue?
0:22:19 > 0:22:21If you want me to be completely honest,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25I would like Wales to grow out of this obsession with Scotland.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27I'm fed up of discussing Scotland.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31I want to talk about the future of Wales.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36What happens in Scotland could transform what is happening in Wales.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39When we talk about devolution in this place,
0:22:39 > 0:22:42I want to see devolution in Wales, on behalf of Wales.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45I don't want a knee-jerk reaction in Wales
0:22:45 > 0:22:48because of what happens in Scotland.
0:22:48 > 0:22:54I want to see a constitutional settlement for us. For Wales.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57The reason Scotland is so important, of course,
0:22:57 > 0:22:59is because equality with Scotland
0:22:59 > 0:23:02is one of the strongest messages in Welsh politics.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06That's what prompted the referendum result.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09Developments in Scotland will affect Wales.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12That's totally irrelevant to the referendum.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15We must also remember the influence of Alex Salmond.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Our time is up, I'm afraid. Thank you all.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20That's it for another week.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22We'll be back at the same time next week.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24We'll be concentrating
0:23:24 > 0:23:27on the Conservative conference in Manchester.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29There will be plenty to discuss.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31- Join us then. Goodnight.- Goodnight.