0:00:00 > 0:00:00.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Good evening. On tonight's programme, another commission on devolution.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26Have politicians in Cardiff got too much power
0:00:26 > 0:00:28but not enough responsibility?
0:00:28 > 0:00:32And the minister says it is time to bury the University of Wales.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Is it time to say Amen to one of Wales's oldest institutions?
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Our guests are the Assembly Members, Keith Davies from Labour
0:00:39 > 0:00:42and Rhodri Glyn Thomas from Plaid Cymru.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46Joining us from London we have the Conservative MP, Guto Bebb.
0:00:46 > 0:00:51We've had The Richard Commission, Sir Emyr's convention
0:00:51 > 0:00:55the Calman Commission and now we have the Silk Commission
0:00:55 > 0:00:57on the future of devolution.
0:00:57 > 0:01:01The Westminster Government has confirmed that Paul Silk
0:01:01 > 0:01:05will look at the Assembly's financial and law making powers.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07This is Elliw Gwawr.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10This year, the majority of people in Wales voted
0:01:10 > 0:01:12on further powers for the Welsh Assembly.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16It's an important step for devolution.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20But if people thought that would be the end of the journey,
0:01:20 > 0:01:25this is the just the beginning. As the Welsh Secretary announced
0:01:25 > 0:01:28what the Commission will look at,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31experts came here to the Norwegian Church.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35There was plenty for them to think about.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37In the period after the referendum
0:01:37 > 0:01:40we thought that would be it for a while.
0:01:40 > 0:01:45But there will be many changes for Wales over the next three years,
0:01:45 > 0:01:49especially when we move towards the referendum
0:01:49 > 0:01:53for independence for Scotland.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58The devolution changes that we have had have stemmed completely
0:01:58 > 0:02:02from internal politics within the Labour Party.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06What was acceptable to the Labour Party was in the '98 law,
0:02:06 > 0:02:11what was acceptable to the Labour Party was in the 2006 law.
0:02:11 > 0:02:17Now we have an opportunity where we have a cross-party group
0:02:17 > 0:02:20who are going to look at the whole picture.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23That could be a very far reaching thing.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27There was a free breakfast on offer in that meeting,
0:02:27 > 0:02:29but we will all have to pay our way.
0:02:30 > 0:02:35At the moment, the Assembly Government gets a grant
0:02:35 > 0:02:39from the Treasury, but Cheryl Gillan has said it's time for the Assembly
0:02:39 > 0:02:43to take responsibility for the money it spends.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53The power to raise or lower taxes in Wales
0:02:53 > 0:02:55be something the public and businesses
0:02:55 > 0:02:59will find difficult to swallow?
0:02:59 > 0:03:02We would appreciate it here.
0:03:02 > 0:03:07It would be great for small businesses in this economic climate.
0:03:07 > 0:03:13VAT is at 20%, so it would help and bring more people into our business.
0:03:13 > 0:03:18One of the biggest questions is are we looking at bits and pieces,
0:03:18 > 0:03:23such as elements in taxation such as stamp duty
0:03:23 > 0:03:27or are we going to look at creating something comprehensive
0:03:27 > 0:03:30such as creating a real Treasury for Wales,
0:03:30 > 0:03:35where we look at things like income tax and small business tax?
0:03:37 > 0:03:41Apparently they will start with an open mind.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44I think it is important that we go into this task
0:03:44 > 0:03:47with a clear mind.
0:03:47 > 0:03:53We need to look at what has been done already and work through that.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57And we need to move forward from that.
0:03:57 > 0:04:05We need a solution that will benefit Wales.
0:04:05 > 0:04:11There are some things that they will not be discussing in the commission.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16Those include borrowing powers, how much money the Assembly receives
0:04:16 > 0:04:18through the Barnett Formula and how Members are elected.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22We will be discussing it all as a big package.
0:04:22 > 0:04:28That includes measures to raise money through things like bonds.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32It will be included in one package.
0:04:32 > 0:04:37We should deal with one thing before moving on to another.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40But whatever the Commission's results,
0:04:40 > 0:04:43the Westminster Government will have the final word
0:04:43 > 0:04:47and will decide if they agree with the decisions made.
0:04:49 > 0:04:55Guto Bebb, the UK Government has started this process.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58What do you think will come from this?
0:04:58 > 0:05:01Do you agree with the point that was just made,
0:05:01 > 0:05:06that the Labour Party has driven this process forward?
0:05:07 > 0:05:10It will definitely have an effect on the decisions which are made.
0:05:10 > 0:05:14The Labour Party in Wales isn't taking responsibility
0:05:14 > 0:05:17for raising money in Wales.
0:05:17 > 0:05:23The Labour Party are eager enough to condemn the tax cuts
0:05:23 > 0:05:26but they don't want the responsibility
0:05:26 > 0:05:27of how money is raised in Wales.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30It is going to be a very open process.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34It is good to see that the UK coalition government is ready
0:05:34 > 0:05:38to have open talks with all the parties involved
0:05:38 > 0:05:41rather than pleasing certain groups within one party.
0:05:41 > 0:05:47The problem Labour has could be, there is a problem in Wales
0:05:47 > 0:05:50with how much tax is being raised.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Scotland can have a row over oil,
0:05:54 > 0:05:58but the tax base in Wales is very small.
0:05:58 > 0:06:03I think that is a very important point that needs to be considered.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06What we hear from the Assembly is the Westminster Government
0:06:06 > 0:06:09is going to cut the taxes, that can be seen as being unfair.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13We want to look at the tax raising situation in Wales.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16We don't want to show that Wales is a poor country,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19but we need to have a mature discussion
0:06:19 > 0:06:23and find out how many taxes are raised in Wales
0:06:23 > 0:06:27and what contribution the Treasury makes.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32Keith Davies, do you think that the politicians in Cardiff Bay
0:06:32 > 0:06:34have got too much power since the referendum
0:06:34 > 0:06:37without any responsibility to find this money?
0:06:37 > 0:06:39If we go back to the Yes campaign back in March,
0:06:39 > 0:06:44all parties said we did not want responsibility for raising taxes.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49Then the majority of Wales apart from Monmouthshire decided
0:06:49 > 0:06:53that they wanted more powers for the Assembly,
0:06:53 > 0:06:57but not the power to raise taxes. That's what the people wanted.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59What do you make of this Commission?
0:06:59 > 0:07:02We will have to wait and see what comes out of this commission.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07We know that Carwyn Jones is not in favour of raising taxes.
0:07:07 > 0:07:12- That's true.- Do you support him? - I do support him.
0:07:12 > 0:07:18I didn't know this until I heard about this Commission business,
0:07:18 > 0:07:21we're not going to be allowed to borrow money.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23I think that is a weakness.
0:07:23 > 0:07:28The smallest communities in Wales can raise money...
0:07:28 > 0:07:32- That's a weakness in the Commission? - That is a great weakness.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36Rhodri Glyn, what do you hope to see come out of this Commission?
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Due to what is happening in Scotland,
0:07:39 > 0:07:43it seems the Westminster Government has had to implement
0:07:43 > 0:07:45different processes.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49They are concerned about allowing the Commission to discuss Barnett
0:07:49 > 0:07:51due to wider implications.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54What do you think the Commission can do?
0:07:54 > 0:08:00I'm going to start by agreeing with Guto which doesn't happen often.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05I think it's very important that we have a mature discussion
0:08:05 > 0:08:09and that we look at the situation as a whole and we see what is possible.
0:08:09 > 0:08:14I accept what Cheryl Gillian has said about responsibility.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19We need responsibility for what is happening in Wales.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22We had a discussion about it in the Chamber today
0:08:22 > 0:08:24about the different options available.
0:08:24 > 0:08:29There is the option of the £38.9 million grant
0:08:29 > 0:08:33that comes from the Barnett Formula after the coalition decided
0:08:33 > 0:08:38to freeze council tax in England. What can we do about that?
0:08:38 > 0:08:41There is a way of getting £600 million from that.
0:08:41 > 0:08:47Jeremy Holtham says if we take 1% percentage of the Assembly budget
0:08:47 > 0:08:51we can save £2.6 billion a year.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54I think we should look in detail at that option
0:08:54 > 0:08:57as well as the post-devolution settlement.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00We need a very mature discussion across the parties
0:09:00 > 0:09:05to see what the options are and to see what we can do.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08Is it a fair discussion?
0:09:08 > 0:09:11What would you have to say about Rachel Banner's comments
0:09:11 > 0:09:14from the No campaign in the referendum?
0:09:14 > 0:09:16Where is their voice here?
0:09:16 > 0:09:19There is no-one against this on the commission.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22Rachel Banner has been arguing that is what
0:09:22 > 0:09:25they were concerned about at the time.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27I think that's a fair point.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31The problem we have in Wales at the moment is there is a tendency
0:09:31 > 0:09:34to move from one constitutional option to another.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38We seem to tell the people of Wales over and over again,
0:09:38 > 0:09:41let us have these powers and the Assembly will work for us.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Let us have these powers and things will be OK.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47We will come to the point where people will say,
0:09:47 > 0:09:51"Why don't you deliver what you have promised?"
0:09:51 > 0:09:54They aren't arguing against the Commission.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56I think we need to be careful
0:09:56 > 0:09:59that we do not become seen to be creating a talking shop,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02while Wales falls further behind other parts of Britain,
0:10:02 > 0:10:05in relation to poverty and economic growth.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08It's important not to complicate the situation.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11We do not want people to think the Assembly is failing them.
0:10:11 > 0:10:16In the end, everyone wants the Assembly to be a success.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19- Is it another step on the slippery slope?- I don't think so.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23I accept Guto's point, as well as the point Keith made earlier.
0:10:23 > 0:10:28We spoke to the Welsh people in the referendum. They had their say.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30People in Wales will not forgive us
0:10:30 > 0:10:32if they think there was a hidden agenda
0:10:32 > 0:10:34and that we're trying to move things further
0:10:34 > 0:10:37than we originally told them during the referendum.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40We need the people of Wales to trust us,
0:10:40 > 0:10:42but there are opportunities here for the first time
0:10:42 > 0:10:45to have discussions across the parties
0:10:45 > 0:10:49regarding the situation that is facing us at the moment.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51Richard made a very important point.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55This is the first time we will have discussions across the parties,
0:10:55 > 0:10:59and it is a real chance for us to have a mature discussion.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03Keith Davies, there is no reason why the commission
0:11:03 > 0:11:08cannot work alongside the usual business of the Assembly,
0:11:08 > 0:11:14but the problem is that people are worried about public services,
0:11:14 > 0:11:15they are worried about losing jobs
0:11:15 > 0:11:20and they are thinking, "They're concentrating on themselves again".
0:11:20 > 0:11:22And the truth of the matter is,
0:11:22 > 0:11:26I know we often blame Westminster, but they are to blame.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30The Holtham Report discussed the Barnet Formula.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33We are not being fairly financed.
0:11:33 > 0:11:39We need more support in Wales than people in England.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43If we can change that formula, then we can move forward
0:11:43 > 0:11:47and look at having more responsibility over our budget.
0:11:47 > 0:11:52You were in power year after year,
0:11:52 > 0:11:54both in Westminster and in Cardiff.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56But you haven't changed things.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00I have not got the details,
0:12:00 > 0:12:04but things have deteriorated over the past 12 years.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06I read some statistics earlier today
0:12:06 > 0:12:09that looked at how much we used to have a head in Wales
0:12:09 > 0:12:12compared to those in England,
0:12:12 > 0:12:16and we had something like 129% a head
0:12:16 > 0:12:20more than they had in England back in 1999,
0:12:20 > 0:12:22but that's now down to 110.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26So the funds we've been getting have gradually decreased.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28Thanks for the time being.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31Judgment day is approaching for the University of Wales.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34Education Minister Leighton Andrews has said he felt it was time to bury
0:12:34 > 0:12:38the institution that, he believes, has damaged Wales' reputation.
0:12:38 > 0:12:44He made his comments after UWIC announced it was leaving.
0:12:44 > 0:12:50The other universities have called for the name to be dropped.
0:12:50 > 0:12:57Mr Andrews called for the University Council's chairman to resign.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02The situation that is facing the University of Wales is despicable.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07It is very important that we see changes being made now.
0:13:07 > 0:13:13The Assembly Government is considering the situation.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17Leighton Andrews isn't the undertaker,
0:13:17 > 0:13:22he does not have the constitutional power.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24- Do you think he is right? - He looks like an undertaker.
0:13:24 > 0:13:32We talked about the need for a mature discussion about devolution.
0:13:32 > 0:13:37I think we definitely need to have discussions about this issue.
0:13:37 > 0:13:44We are all aware there have been obvious failings in the University.
0:13:45 > 0:13:51There are new people in charge now. Medwin Hughes is Vice Chancellor.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54He said he will get to grips with the situation.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58I think it is too young to bury the institution yet.
0:13:58 > 0:14:04The University of Wales brand is very important.
0:14:04 > 0:14:12- It is now based in Southwest Wales. - The brand is still important.
0:14:12 > 0:14:18I would not like us to bury it without examining all the options.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23They are in very deep waters and we must be aware of that.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27There have been serious failings. Can we get to grips with those?
0:14:27 > 0:14:33Or, as Leighton has said, should we bury the University of Wales?
0:14:33 > 0:14:35I don't think we've reached that point.
0:14:35 > 0:14:43People have an emotional attachmenttowards the University of Wales.
0:14:43 > 0:14:49It has many institutions which are important to Wales.
0:14:49 > 0:14:57But it is starting to damage the reputation of other institutions.
0:14:57 > 0:15:02We've been getting emails from abroad asking if we're connected.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06It is a difficult and fragile situation.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10It is heart-breaking.
0:15:10 > 0:15:15I attended the university because Aberystwyth was a part of it.
0:15:15 > 0:15:21It has now broken up and that is very sad.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25The University of Wales was a strong brand. But it's been destroyed.
0:15:25 > 0:15:29The same happened with the WDA.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34But the institution we have now isn't as I remember it.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38I don't want to say it's the end.
0:15:38 > 0:15:45Leighton Andrews is being aggressivetowards the HE and FE sectors.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50He tends to implement from Cardiff without much discussion.
0:15:50 > 0:15:55But the University of Wales is facing a very difficult situation.
0:15:55 > 0:16:02Leighton Andrews wants fewer universities which co-operate more.
0:16:02 > 0:16:10But he wants to do away with this umbrella organisation. Why?
0:16:10 > 0:16:13It isn't a full umbrella any more.
0:16:13 > 0:16:19The universities in Cardiff, Aberystwyth, Swansea and Bangor
0:16:19 > 0:16:25no longer offer University of Wales degrees.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28Do you think there is a hope of re-building that brand?
0:16:28 > 0:16:32I do not see that happening.
0:16:32 > 0:16:37The problem is the University of Wales is not answerable to anybody.
0:16:37 > 0:16:44As Vaughan said earlier, they have plenty of assets across Wales.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48I think that we, in the Assembly, should...
0:16:48 > 0:16:55I believe they have £27 million in reserve and as assets.
0:16:55 > 0:17:03Was it a mistake when the colleges tried to recreate the university
0:17:03 > 0:17:09with new colleges and this massive international business?
0:17:09 > 0:17:13At one point, it was Britain's second largest university.
0:17:13 > 0:17:21But it seems the regulation was not strong enough.
0:17:21 > 0:17:26With this kind of organisation, you need strong leadership.
0:17:26 > 0:17:33It's obvious it was not there. The leadership was very weak.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35Your only option is to change the situation.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40Leighton Andrews has not said he'll get rid of it,
0:17:40 > 0:17:42but he will study its management.
0:17:42 > 0:17:50We have also been talking about the institutions in Wales, including S4C.
0:17:50 > 0:17:55Is there enough scrutiny in our institutions?
0:17:55 > 0:18:02As a nation, does Wales like to have power, but not the assessment?
0:18:02 > 0:18:06There are institutions which have believed they were not answerable
0:18:06 > 0:18:10and wouldn't have to justify anything they did.
0:18:10 > 0:18:16Some, including S4C and University of Wales, have learned lessons.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19They should be answerable.
0:18:19 > 0:18:24The University of Wales situation is serious.
0:18:24 > 0:18:29Let's discuss the situation and see what happens in future.
0:18:29 > 0:18:34We can then see if it's possible to develop the brand for the future.
0:18:34 > 0:18:41If not, I'll be happy enough to support calls for its abolishment.
0:18:41 > 0:18:48But we haven't had the necessary discussion here, in the Chamber.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50We need it before making any decisions.
0:18:50 > 0:18:56You referred to Leighton Andrews' attitude towards the sector.
0:18:56 > 0:19:03We can see that from the pressure on universities to merge.
0:19:03 > 0:19:10As well as being answerable, there needs to be a distance
0:19:10 > 0:19:16between politicians and the education system.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20That's true. We have a number of educational establishments.
0:19:20 > 0:19:25I have been talking to members of different bodies
0:19:25 > 0:19:30who are being pushed to co-operate more with the Assembly.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34When you ask them what the rationale is for working closer together,
0:19:34 > 0:19:38they cannot see what it is, but the Assembly insists that they do it.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42That isn't a mature attitude.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46What we have is someone saying he has the power to make changes.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51I think, in North Wales, we have some bodies that work well together.
0:19:51 > 0:19:56They have to answer the Assembly's dictat and that's unfortunate.
0:19:56 > 0:20:02You know that Andrews as a politician can be like a dog with a bone.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06If he thinks we should get rid of the University of Wales,
0:20:06 > 0:20:09that is what he will insist will happen.
0:20:09 > 0:20:17Leighton Andrews is looking at this so that we have strong universities
0:20:17 > 0:20:21that compete with universities across England and overseas.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25That is not true, but there we are.
0:20:25 > 0:20:30On Friday, the Assembly Commission's consultation
0:20:30 > 0:20:34into the use of Welsh and English languages here will come to an end.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Has the debate over the decision
0:20:37 > 0:20:41to withdraw bilingual records of proceedings raised its head again?
0:20:41 > 0:20:47You are a language commissioner, it must have.
0:20:47 > 0:20:54The irony is that, from that situation,
0:20:54 > 0:21:02and as the first person to raise the issue and voice my opposition,
0:21:02 > 0:21:10we have now reached a more cost-effective way of recording.
0:21:10 > 0:21:18- What is that formula? - We have new technology.
0:21:18 > 0:21:25- We are translating with the use of this.- Is it Google Translate?- No.
0:21:25 > 0:21:30Some people are opposed to that option.
0:21:30 > 0:21:36There's Google Toolkit and there are other options as well.
0:21:36 > 0:21:42At the moment, an assessment of options is taking place.
0:21:42 > 0:21:48- Regarding cost?- It will be more cost-effective.
0:21:48 > 0:21:54The most exciting thing is that we will then be able
0:21:54 > 0:21:58to help organisations throughout Wales to ensure they can have
0:21:58 > 0:22:05a more effective way of translating, especially in the voluntary sector.
0:22:05 > 0:22:11Translation costs can be expensive. It will save them a lot of money.
0:22:11 > 0:22:17When you say, technology, are there actual people in this system?
0:22:17 > 0:22:23There are editors. They will be able to write in Welsh.
0:22:23 > 0:22:30It will be a more interesting process for the translators.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33What do you think of this?
0:22:33 > 0:22:41The decision to get rid of the bilingual record was disappointing.
0:22:41 > 0:22:49If we can take a step forward with this, I would welcome it.
0:22:49 > 0:22:56it is important to remember the small businesses in Wales.
0:22:56 > 0:23:03We do not want this technology to ruin translators' livelihoods.
0:23:03 > 0:23:10Keith? It sounds promising. We were glad to hear what Rhodri said.
0:23:10 > 0:23:16We have got a lot of support for the Welsh language in the Assembly.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20Thank you for joining us this evening.
0:23:20 > 0:23:25We will be back at the same time next Wednesday.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29All the best to Wales in the rugby on Saturday.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33- Thank for watching. Good night. - Good night.
0:23:33 > 0:23:33.