0:00:00 > 0:00:00.
0:00:19 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to a half-hour discussion here in the Senedd.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27Tonight, who should lead them and in what direction?
0:00:27 > 0:00:31The future of Plaid Cymru as it tries to step forward.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33As the pressures increase,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36what kind of shape will S4C and Welshbroadcasting be in?
0:00:36 > 0:00:40We hear from the chairman of the authority, Huw Jones.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Tonight, we are joined by Euryn Ogwen Williams,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46S4C's first director of programmes.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49He's now a consultant on digital communication.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52We have the chair of Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary Jones
0:00:52 > 0:00:55and Paul Davies, the Tory deputy leader in the Assembly.
0:00:55 > 0:00:56Welcome to you all.
0:00:56 > 0:01:02This week, it was confirmed that the name of Plaid Cymru's next leader
0:01:02 > 0:01:05will be announced on 15th March next year.
0:01:05 > 0:01:11So far there are only two, Elin Jones and Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14At the same time, the party has started the process
0:01:14 > 0:01:18of re-inventing itself. Elliw Gwawr has more.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25No, not Gavin and Stacey but Helen Mary Jones and Dafydd Wigley
0:01:25 > 0:01:29who were both in Gwynfor Evans's birth town to launch the timetable
0:01:29 > 0:01:32for the new leadership race.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Only two people have put their names forward.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Dafydd Elis-Thomas has huge experience.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Elin Jones has been a wonderful minister
0:01:43 > 0:01:45working in the coalition.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Either of them, or someone else whoare considering it
0:01:49 > 0:01:55would lead the party into a new era and we'll see the party move forward
0:01:55 > 0:01:59to be the country's next government.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03If they want to fulfil that dream, prominent members acknowledge
0:02:03 > 0:02:08that the support needs to be widened right across Wales.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12The party has come a long way since the time of Gwynfor Evans,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14but the same problems continue.
0:02:14 > 0:02:19The party is still seen as a Welsh language party.
0:02:21 > 0:02:27It is trying to tackle that challenge by holding meetings across Wales.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29There was one in Cardiff tonight.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31Earlier this week, they were in North Wales.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35Here in Caernarfon, Plaid Cymru are holding the first
0:02:35 > 0:02:39of their public meetings which will look at what went wrong
0:02:39 > 0:02:43in the last Assembly elections and will look towards the future.
0:02:43 > 0:02:50How to renew the party and increase its support before the next election.
0:02:50 > 0:02:55This process of renewal is being led by Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58It is five years until the next election
0:02:58 > 0:03:01so it's time for us now to discuss things.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04We need to strengthen the party and move on.
0:03:04 > 0:03:09Before winning political power we need public support.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13We need to look internally at party members
0:03:13 > 0:03:17and look at others who don't support the party.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20Is it practical to get some of those to support the party?
0:03:20 > 0:03:23But what was the response in Caernarfon?
0:03:25 > 0:03:32I think we have been complacent in reaching our original targets
0:03:32 > 0:03:37and maybe we have not looked forward to new targets.
0:03:37 > 0:03:43Certainly in England, the English are becoming more nationalistic
0:03:43 > 0:03:49andd I think the question of independence needs to be discussed.
0:03:49 > 0:03:55I think we need to discuss it openly not only internally
0:03:55 > 0:03:59but across Wales and within the party's supporters.
0:03:59 > 0:04:01We are a left wing party.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03That's not going to change.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06We know what we believe in,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09but it's a challenge of not changing where we stand
0:04:09 > 0:04:15but putting across our message and touch the every day lives of people.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18The work will be completed by the end of the year.
0:04:18 > 0:04:23The challenge for the new leader is to ensure the process
0:04:23 > 0:04:25leads to electoral success.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30I don't want to make it obvious, but I'll start with you Paul Davies.
0:04:30 > 0:04:35You had a race for the leadership recently.
0:04:35 > 0:04:40On the whole, people would say it benefited the party.
0:04:40 > 0:04:46In one sense, you had the same jobthat Helen Mary has now
0:04:46 > 0:04:51which is to make sure that the contest is a positive one.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53How can that be achieved? How did you do it?
0:04:53 > 0:05:00It's important that for whoever looks at the contest
0:05:00 > 0:05:04there's a fairness between the candidates.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08I'm sure Helen Mary Jones will make sure of that.
0:05:08 > 0:05:14If I was a member of Plaid Cymru, I'd be worried about the timetable
0:05:14 > 0:05:16because it is quite long.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20There is five months to go before the leader is chosen.
0:05:20 > 0:05:25There is a danger the party will look at itself and not concentrate
0:05:25 > 0:05:29on holding the Government to account for the people of Wales.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33As an opposition it has a responsibility to do that.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36What was striking in your leadership contest
0:05:36 > 0:05:40where discussions between Nick Ramsey and Andrew RT Davies
0:05:40 > 0:05:46showed differences between them but it was also used to put forward
0:05:46 > 0:05:49quite similar messages to the public.
0:05:49 > 0:05:54An election isn't just about yourself.
0:05:54 > 0:05:55That's right.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59Every party, when they choose a new leader, can do that
0:05:59 > 0:06:03and the candidates have the opportunity to do that.
0:06:03 > 0:06:09Looking at the contest we had recently, it was a very good contest
0:06:09 > 0:06:12because it was an opportunity for us, as a party,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15to extend outside of our membership.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19Helen Mary Jones, let's get to the contest in your party.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23I called it a marathon. What about the length of this contest?
0:06:23 > 0:06:27Before the summer we were told Ieuan Wyn Jones was standing down.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29So it would almost be a year.
0:06:29 > 0:06:34If you think as to how Rhodri Morgan ensured that the process
0:06:34 > 0:06:37of electing the new leader to the Labour Party went smoothly,
0:06:37 > 0:06:40he announced his retirement years before he left.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42No-one discussed him as a lame duck.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46I accept what Paul Davies says but if you look at the performance
0:06:46 > 0:06:51of our group in the Assembly they do hold the Government to account.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55We are also preparing for local elections in May.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58So, I think we can do the two things at the same time.
0:06:58 > 0:07:03I know you are neutral as a chairman, but do you think the two candidates
0:07:03 > 0:07:08at the moment, Dafydd Elis-Thomas and ELin Jones, offer a real choice?
0:07:08 > 0:07:14Are they from different... Explain to us how they differ.
0:07:14 > 0:07:20I have to be completely independent in this argument.
0:07:20 > 0:07:25I think what is positive is that there will be a good choice.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28- We have two candidates at the race already.- More to come?
0:07:28 > 0:07:31- There might be more to come. - Leanne Wood?
0:07:31 > 0:07:34You would have to ask Leanne.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38One thing that has pleased me, as an old feminist,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41is that one of the candidates is a woman.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44There is an opportunity to have a female leader.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48Not to say I'd orefer Elin over Dafydd.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56The point has arrived where we have natural leaders, like Leanne.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58There are other possible leaders within the party.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00We do have good members.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05Mr Jones has delayed in order to give the new members
0:08:05 > 0:08:09time to settle in and give the public time to get to know them.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13Euryn Ogwen Williams, I remember you standing for Plaid Cymru
0:08:13 > 0:08:14around 40 years ago.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16You must be old, Vaughan!
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Isn't it strange when you look at it
0:08:19 > 0:08:25that you hold the review that could tie the hands of the new leader?
0:08:25 > 0:08:28You could have a new leader who won't like it.
0:08:28 > 0:08:33I think the length of the process will help,
0:08:33 > 0:08:37that someone goes through it all.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41As Paul said, maybe it seems like a long time,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44but on the other hand I don't think it is.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49Brand is the important thing in the end.
0:08:49 > 0:08:53Once someone goes into an election, what is the brand?
0:08:53 > 0:08:56The key part of the brand is the leader.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00Somebody creates the brand around him or her,
0:09:00 > 0:09:02or rebranding if necessary.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06I do think that it is...
0:09:06 > 0:09:09And what do you make of the brands on offer at the moment?
0:09:09 > 0:09:12I'm sure you don't want to give a personal preference,
0:09:12 > 0:09:18but you are an expert in communication in the modern world.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20Do the two of them offer that?
0:09:20 > 0:09:25It's a very strong competition.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29The digital media,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Twitter and Facebook.
0:09:32 > 0:09:39They are all going to be important elements in the contest.
0:09:39 > 0:09:40Especially among young people.
0:09:40 > 0:09:46As we try and strengthen the party, people can now join on the internet.
0:09:46 > 0:09:52When you talk about branding, anybody in advertising will say
0:09:52 > 0:09:55is that you need a positive brand.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57There is room for a bit of negativity.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00You're supposed to be positive.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03I went on Google the other day and I put in,
0:10:03 > 0:10:06"Wales is losing out says Plaid Cymru."
0:10:06 > 0:10:10There were 50,000 hits.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13Is Plaid Cymru's re-branding a bit too negative at the moment?
0:10:13 > 0:10:18What contradicts that is what happened in 2005.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22to the Labour Party when Tony Blair was re-branded.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27The negative aspects were used to bring people back to him.
0:10:27 > 0:10:34The problem with the digital media is things stay out there forever.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38If you say one wrong word it's out there forever.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41You can't win.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44If we don't stand up for Wales we're in trouble.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47We have to say when things are unfair
0:10:47 > 0:10:50but also we need to try and be positive.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54What do you think the big issues of this contest should be?
0:10:54 > 0:10:58The economy? Education? Health or the constitution and independence?
0:10:58 > 0:11:00They go hand in hand.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03We want to see an independent Wales.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Not just because we want Wales to be independent...
0:11:06 > 0:11:08Is independence a big issue?
0:11:08 > 0:11:11I don't think independence is a big issue.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13We have to put forward the argument
0:11:13 > 0:11:15as to how the economy would be better.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19But why not be more honest about independence?
0:11:19 > 0:11:22But we are.
0:11:22 > 0:11:28The balance and discussion will be part of what Eurfyl and others
0:11:28 > 0:11:30will be discussing in the review.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32Going back to the point you made earlier,
0:11:32 > 0:11:35I think it's important that we decide, as a party,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37which direction we want to go in.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41Then we elect the best leader to deliver that.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44We have a good choice already, maybewe'll have more.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46We need to know where we're going
0:11:46 > 0:11:51before we can slot the best leader into the brand.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55We have to use that kind of language.
0:11:55 > 0:12:00Thank you. It's been a very difficult year for S4C.
0:12:00 > 0:12:05This week it was confirmed Ian Jones will be the new chief executive
0:12:05 > 0:12:07although he will not take the helm for a few months.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12There is suggestion that a financial agreement between S4C and the BBC
0:12:12 > 0:12:16which will provide the channel with money until 2017
0:12:16 > 0:12:17is about to be announced.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21Yesterday, I had the resposne of Huw Jones, the chair of S4C's authority
0:12:21 > 0:12:23to these developments.
0:12:25 > 0:12:30That would go beyond what was discussed with the BBC last October
0:12:30 > 0:12:32between the BBC and the Secretary of State.
0:12:32 > 0:12:37If it is the BBC's wish to give S4C more information,
0:12:37 > 0:12:41on terms that are acceptable, that would be welcomed.
0:12:41 > 0:12:46We would hope to see some kind of commitment
0:12:46 > 0:12:51from the Secretary of State about the public money
0:12:51 > 0:12:54for the two years in question.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58You announced the name of the chief executive, even though it was known.
0:12:58 > 0:13:03But you said he would not be starting until next April.
0:13:03 > 0:13:08Is that a problem, considering what the channel's been through?
0:13:08 > 0:13:12We would prefer the chief executive to start earlier
0:13:12 > 0:13:15and that might happen.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19The date that was announced as the latest possible date
0:13:19 > 0:13:21for him to start.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25There is a temporary chief executive in place.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27They have the Authority's support.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31The commissioning team is commissioning programmes.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33So, we have confidence in the system.
0:13:33 > 0:13:39The sooner we get the new chief executive, the better.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43Elan Closs Stephens called for an end
0:13:43 > 0:13:47to what she called the war between BBC and S4C.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50Is that war over?
0:13:50 > 0:13:52I would not agree with those words.
0:13:52 > 0:13:58What you have here is two bodies with two conflicting principles.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02Set out by the Secretary of State.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05S4C wants to protect its independence
0:14:05 > 0:14:08and the BBC wants to show that it's not being top-sliced.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11They are difficult to resolve.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15As a result, discussions have been very detailed.
0:14:15 > 0:14:21Is it possible that through sharing technology and closer co-operation
0:14:21 > 0:14:26between Radio Cymru and S4C, good things could come of this?
0:14:26 > 0:14:28Of course, of course.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32That will be one of the main tasks over the coming years,
0:14:32 > 0:14:35to try and find out where there is possible co-operation,
0:14:35 > 0:14:37so we can plan long-term,
0:14:37 > 0:14:41so that co-operation is planned
0:14:41 > 0:14:46in order to secure financial savings and benefits all round.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49The principal for me is that it's possible for S4C,
0:14:49 > 0:14:51considering all such offers,
0:14:51 > 0:14:55that it's possible for S4C to take its own independent view
0:14:55 > 0:14:59over whether the offer, whatever it is,
0:14:59 > 0:15:03will benefit the channel and S4C's viewers.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07You also announced that you wanted to end things like company cars
0:15:07 > 0:15:10and private health schemes at S4C.
0:15:10 > 0:15:17There is this image of people being paid a lot of money at the company.
0:15:17 > 0:15:21How much has it harmed S4C?
0:15:21 > 0:15:25I don't think it is a fair image at all.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27It does exist.
0:15:27 > 0:15:33Some people like creating that kind of image, for whatever reason.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37I don't think it's an image that survives any
0:15:37 > 0:15:42detailed investigation of the situation,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45or any comparison to other public bodies.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50Euryn Ogwen Williams, you were there right at the start.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54There has been a lot of discussion about S4C's independence.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56What does it mean to you,
0:15:56 > 0:15:59because during your speech at the Wrexham Eisteddfod,
0:15:59 > 0:16:01you talked about independence,
0:16:01 > 0:16:06but you said you valued the freedom of the channel. What did you mean?
0:16:06 > 0:16:11I think it would be a huge price to pay for editorial freedom
0:16:11 > 0:16:15and freedom to work within Wales
0:16:15 > 0:16:21to create an establishment that is solely independent.
0:16:21 > 0:16:27The freedom from political pressures and marketing pressures
0:16:27 > 0:16:31and from pressure
0:16:31 > 0:16:37that comes from certain parts of society
0:16:37 > 0:16:40is more important than the independence.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42The editorial independence
0:16:42 > 0:16:45and operational independence,
0:16:45 > 0:16:51which has been offered by everybody so far, is very important.
0:16:51 > 0:16:57So you are not overly concerned about the way forward with the BBC?
0:16:57 > 0:17:00That doesn't worry me at all.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04I don't think it matters where the money comes from.
0:17:04 > 0:17:10It's the terms that come along with the money, that's the problem.
0:17:10 > 0:17:16I do think, in this case, that the system with financing it
0:17:16 > 0:17:18through the license fee,
0:17:18 > 0:17:23will help towards the devolution of broadcasting in Wales.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26It takes the money away from the politicians.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28Yes.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32It shouldn't be a problem for any party to have a relationship
0:17:32 > 0:17:38with regards to the financing of S4C.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40Paul Davies,
0:17:40 > 0:17:44if we look at the relationship between the BBC and S4C.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47As someone who works for the BBC and programmes on S4C,
0:17:47 > 0:17:51there has been a childish element,
0:17:51 > 0:17:55when there should have been co-operation.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57That isn't a reason for doing this.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01But we could get rid of that, at least.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04What's important is co-operation,
0:18:04 > 0:18:11that S4C and the BBC work in partnership with each other.
0:18:11 > 0:18:15I think independence for S4C is important.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17For a long time,
0:18:17 > 0:18:21I've been calling for S4C's independence to be safeguarded.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26I've been calling to make sure there is a sustainable
0:18:26 > 0:18:29financial system in place in future.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33S4C is very important to us in Wales.
0:18:33 > 0:18:38That leads us on to when we form a national language strategy
0:18:38 > 0:18:44for Wales, the part S4C plays in that is key.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48Its partnerships with the Assembly Government
0:18:48 > 0:18:53and other broadcasters have not been able to create that.
0:18:53 > 0:18:58It's important to make sure that the framework is in place
0:18:58 > 0:19:01and that the partnership can go forward into the future.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04That's what's important, I think.
0:19:05 > 0:19:11I've been calling for devolution with regards to S4C broadcasting.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14That makes sense, in my opinion.
0:19:14 > 0:19:20To respond to an earlier point,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23if money comes through the license fee in the future,
0:19:23 > 0:19:27will that make devolution more attractive?
0:19:28 > 0:19:32I think we'd have to look at the details.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34But the money wouldn't have to come from here.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38I think the principal is right that we do look to devolve
0:19:38 > 0:19:44responsibilities for S4C to the Assembly. That makes sense.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48I think my fellow members agree with that.
0:19:48 > 0:19:53Helen Mary Jones, when do you see it happening?
0:19:53 > 0:19:59We want to see that. It would also be easier through the license fee.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01When we talk about partnership,
0:20:01 > 0:20:04it's my experience that it's difficult to have a partnership
0:20:04 > 0:20:09when you have one strong side which holds the purse strings
0:20:09 > 0:20:11and the other side is weaker
0:20:11 > 0:20:15and has to depend on the other partner for funding.
0:20:15 > 0:20:20- It's a recipe for disaster. - That doesn't mean it's impossible.
0:20:20 > 0:20:25It's not impossible but I do disagree a little because I think
0:20:25 > 0:20:30the channel needs some kind of structure of independence.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34I agree with the point about the freedom.
0:20:34 > 0:20:39Especially editorial freedom, that's the most important thing.
0:20:39 > 0:20:44How to you create the structures to ensure that happens?
0:20:44 > 0:20:47My biggest disappointment
0:20:47 > 0:20:50is that the Welsh Government hasn't done anything since the election.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53What Paul said pleased me.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56There was a lot of work before the election
0:20:56 > 0:20:59and there was an all-party agreement, but since the election,
0:20:59 > 0:21:02we have not seen the Government working hard on this at all.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06Carwyn Jones has said this week
0:21:06 > 0:21:12that S4C's oporational and editorial independence is crucial
0:21:12 > 0:21:18and yet there is talk about pooling resources and maybe even buildings.
0:21:18 > 0:21:23Do you fear that it's a slippery slope?
0:21:23 > 0:21:26I think we're concentrating too much on S4C.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30I think we have to look at it as a whole.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35Over the next few years, the media will change so much.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40The Assembly has made steps forward with rolling out
0:21:40 > 0:21:42broadband throughout Wales.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47The preparations there are a step forward.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49I hope it's realised.
0:21:51 > 0:21:56The way programmes are delivered is going to change so much.
0:21:57 > 0:22:02I think the Assembly has to be aware about the importance
0:22:02 > 0:22:06to the economy and the culture
0:22:06 > 0:22:12that media in Wales is properly financed and is properly managed.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15On the subject of that economic role,
0:22:15 > 0:22:20not far behind us we have the BBC's huge new drama studio.
0:22:20 > 0:22:26Apart from Pobol y Cwm, most of the dramas are not Welsh.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29But they do have economic value.
0:22:29 > 0:22:35They keep the technical skills, for British drama for example, in Wales.
0:22:35 > 0:22:40They can be used to strengthen Welsh drama.
0:22:40 > 0:22:45I'm worried about the possible impact on the independent sector.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48In Llanelli we have an independent company,
0:22:48 > 0:22:52Tinopolis is waiting for an announcement from S4C tomorrow.
0:22:52 > 0:22:58It could either protect or axe about 100 jobs.
0:22:58 > 0:23:03We've been discussing the importance of the BBC treating S4C fairly,
0:23:03 > 0:23:07but S4C should treat the independent sector fairly.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Whatever the structure,
0:23:09 > 0:23:12there should be programmes from the independent sector.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14This is another important sector.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18We have to leave it there. Thank you all three of you.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21That's it for tonight.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24There will not be a programme next week because the politicians
0:23:24 > 0:23:29are having a week off for half term, but we'll be back in a fortnight.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Don't forget to join us then.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34Thanks for your company and goodnight.
0:23:34 > 0:23:36Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd