0:00:20 > 0:00:23Good evening. Welcome to the programme.
0:00:23 > 0:00:29Tonight, the row over organ donation. Who should have the last word?
0:00:29 > 0:00:32And the row over wearing the Wales shirt and a poppy
0:00:32 > 0:00:34on the football field.
0:00:34 > 0:00:39We are joined by Myrddin Edwards from the Liberal Democrats,
0:00:39 > 0:00:41Dr Simon Brooks from Cardiff University
0:00:41 > 0:00:45and the Reverend Aled Edwards, the chief executive of Cytun.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50Wales will be the first country in the UK
0:00:50 > 0:00:52to change the system on organ donation.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55Well, that's what the Welsh Government wants.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57Presumed consent is the key phrase.
0:00:57 > 0:01:01That is to take for granted that individuals are prepared to donate
0:01:01 > 0:01:05unless they state otherwise before death.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07At the moment, the opposite is true.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09According to the Government,
0:01:09 > 0:01:16number of available organs would increase by 25% and save more lives.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Not everyone is in favour. Here's Elliw Gwawr.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23At first sight, it seems quite a simple matter.
0:01:23 > 0:01:28Making everybody an organ donor unless they state otherwise
0:01:28 > 0:01:34would lead to more transplants. But practically, is that the reality?
0:01:34 > 0:01:36And what about the moral issue?
0:01:36 > 0:01:41300 people are waiting for organs in Wales every year
0:01:41 > 0:01:44and one person dies a week waiting for one.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48The government wants to increase the number of organs available.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53But doctors will take for granted that you want to donate your organs
0:01:53 > 0:01:57when you die and families will lose the legal right to refuse.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Evidence from countries like Belgium and Spain,
0:02:01 > 0:02:03shows that introducing an opt-out system
0:02:03 > 0:02:07can increase the number who donate organs by around 30%.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11But there are many more intensive care beds in Spain
0:02:11 > 0:02:14and better training for medical workers.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17They say that's what leads more people to donate organs.
0:02:17 > 0:02:23Surveys reveal that 90% of the population is in favour of donation,
0:02:23 > 0:02:27but only 30% are on the organ donation list.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31Campaigners say the introduction of an opt-out system
0:02:31 > 0:02:34would better reflect the majority opinion.
0:02:34 > 0:02:39According to the Archbishop of Wales, an organ should be a gift,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42not an object to be considered an asset by the state.
0:02:42 > 0:02:47The Health Minister he says this law will change the mindset
0:02:47 > 0:02:50and lead to more discussion in families.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54But the UK Government has already rejected the idea of presumed consent
0:02:56 > 0:03:00saying it wouldn't necessarily increase the number of organ donations
0:03:00 > 0:03:02and could be much more costly.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04There is plenty to discuss.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07But there is another thing.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09When organs are collected in Wales,
0:03:09 > 0:03:12they won't necessarily be kept in Wales.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16The most suitable person in Britain will receive the organs,
0:03:17 > 0:03:18not only people in Wales.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22Is it a good or bad thing? I'll let you decide.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Elliw Gwawr talking to herself. Could be a bad sign.
0:03:24 > 0:03:29Aled, do you agree with your Archbishop?
0:03:29 > 0:03:35I understand what he's saying and he's expressing a strong element
0:03:35 > 0:03:37in the Christian faith and other faiths.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42I feel you have to consider this seriously for ethical reasons.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46What worries me is the number of people who are dying
0:03:46 > 0:03:48because organs are not available to them.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52I have questions about the white paper,
0:03:52 > 0:03:56I feel I would need certainty about the rights of families.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01I would also want certainty about people seriously understanding
0:04:01 > 0:04:04that they have to do this and knowing their choices.
0:04:04 > 0:04:09I personally would tend to sway towards agreeing with the Government
0:04:09 > 0:04:12as long as there is security over those elements.
0:04:12 > 0:04:18That family question is interesting because it did seem a few months ago
0:04:18 > 0:04:22that a family would have the absolute right to say no.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25But things now seem more vague. Does that bother you?
0:04:25 > 0:04:27That does bother me.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32The multi-faith forum discussed this some weeks ago
0:04:32 > 0:04:35and what we conveyed to the First Minister
0:04:35 > 0:04:41was that maybe the closest relative to the person who has died
0:04:41 > 0:04:44should have some authority.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47We were debating the ethics of it.
0:04:47 > 0:04:54Church leaders say this is the individual's right to give a gift to society.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59There was a very interesting stance from the medical profession
0:04:59 > 0:05:04said that it should be considered society's gift to the individual.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06That is a very interesting discussion.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10Simon Brooks, let's look at the figures for Wales.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12One person dies a week waiting for an organ,
0:05:12 > 0:05:16300 people on the list at any one time.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20Anything that increases hope for people is a good thing, isn't it?
0:05:20 > 0:05:24It will save lives, we have to be honest about that.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28Whether it is right to do this is a different matter.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32It raises very complex questions.
0:05:32 > 0:05:38If the family does not have the right to stop it from happening,
0:05:38 > 0:05:43and if the individual doesn't do this before their death,
0:05:43 > 0:05:50what you are talking about is nationalising dead bodies.
0:05:50 > 0:05:56The minister has explained this week
0:05:56 > 0:06:00that the family will have some kind of veto.
0:06:00 > 0:06:05She says a doctor wouldn't go against the wishes of the family.
0:06:05 > 0:06:12I would argue that has to be put in statute by legislature.
0:06:12 > 0:06:18We have to understand our history in Europe in the 20th century.
0:06:18 > 0:06:24People are nervous about the state having too much power.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29Not because of the intentions of the Welsh Government now
0:06:29 > 0:06:35but because of what could happen in the future.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37It could be a slippery slope.
0:06:37 > 0:06:46Deciding the state has a right to an individual's organ
0:06:44 > 0:06:50without his or her consent is a big step.
0:06:50 > 0:06:59Myrddin Edwards, perhaps we're reading too much into
0:06:59 > 0:07:01the denial of family rights.
0:07:01 > 0:07:06The Minister is saying we cannot imagine a situation
0:07:06 > 0:07:09where a doctor would say no to the family.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12But you could have a situation where there is disagreement
0:07:12 > 0:07:15between members of the family or where the closest relative
0:07:15 > 0:07:20is a distant relative and barely knows the deceased.
0:07:20 > 0:07:25The minister is pointing to some extreme circumstances
0:07:25 > 0:07:27when saying they can't give an absolute promise.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30When this came out on Tuesday morning,
0:07:30 > 0:07:33I heard Lesley Griffiths saying on the radio
0:07:33 > 0:07:36that a family wouldn't have the final answer.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39But then Carwyn Jones said
0:07:39 > 0:07:44the families you have to be taken into account.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47So it is not a clear message.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51But we have to make sure we know exactly what the law is.
0:07:51 > 0:07:57I don't think doctors will go against the wishes of the family
0:07:57 > 0:08:03but I agree with this opt-out idea.
0:08:03 > 0:08:09I don't think it is about nationalising people's organs.
0:08:09 > 0:08:15What we have to do now is tell people this is happening.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19Belgium have the same system since 1986
0:08:19 > 0:08:28and only 2% of the population has opted out.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32Having said that, double the amount of organs
0:08:32 > 0:08:35are donated in Belgium at the moment.
0:08:35 > 0:08:44This idea is only being introduced in Wales,
0:08:44 > 0:08:48but those organs will be available to patients outside Wales.
0:08:48 > 0:09:00But that could lead to pressure on the system in Wales.
0:09:00 > 0:09:05Would they be pushing to get lots of organs?
0:09:05 > 0:09:10Doesn't this show Wales is leading the way with this opt-out system?
0:09:10 > 0:09:16Maybe Scotland and England will introduce the same thing?
0:09:16 > 0:09:26There's also debate over organs staying in Wales or going elsewhere.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31Whoever is on top of the list and whoever has the greatest need
0:09:31 > 0:09:33will get the organ.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Going back to the Archbishop of Wales,
0:09:35 > 0:09:41who said organ donation is a gift, not a right,
0:09:41 > 0:09:43he does have quite a powerful point there.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46This is not a duty.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50No, that is right but if you have a serious need
0:09:50 > 0:09:54and if you can prove that, the argument changes.
0:09:54 > 0:10:02It is a great interference by the state to do this,
0:10:02 > 0:10:09and if we do it we have to have strong rules and regulations.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14You are not talking about cutting tax on plastic bags.
0:10:14 > 0:10:18That discussion is quite basic.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23This is a fundamental discussion.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26They are dead bodies and I accept that.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30But even then, the individual has a right with regard to his own body.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34Giving the power to the state...
0:10:34 > 0:10:39But people can opt out.
0:10:39 > 0:10:45That's right, that is the individual's decision.
0:10:45 > 0:10:50There is a lack of information for our citizens.
0:10:50 > 0:10:56We're aware of this huge rift.
0:10:56 > 0:11:02Going back to the figures, if 30% of the people are on the list now,
0:11:02 > 0:11:07and 80% are in favour, it shows that we are lazy
0:11:07 > 0:11:11and we need to boost the numbers on that list.
0:11:11 > 0:11:18It is the fact that it will save the lives
0:11:18 > 0:11:21which makes this such a difficult moral question.
0:11:21 > 0:11:28There are other ways of increasing the number of people who donate organs.
0:11:28 > 0:11:37Maybe we could have a box on the census.
0:11:37 > 0:11:38What about raising awareness?
0:11:38 > 0:11:43You can tick a box on your driving licence
0:11:43 > 0:11:45to say you want to donate organs.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48They can but should it be compulsory?
0:11:48 > 0:11:55I would rather it be compulsory and people get a specific choice.
0:11:55 > 0:12:00Then you are forced to make a choice.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04It's right for the state to ask you to make your choice,
0:12:04 > 0:12:10but I don't want the state to take these steps without
0:12:10 > 0:12:12getting consent in the first place.
0:12:12 > 0:12:23A lot of people don't really understand what the Government does.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27There is a consultation period going on at the moment
0:12:27 > 0:12:34and we are telling people about the opt-out system.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37They do good work.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40One line you cannot cross in this situation,
0:12:40 > 0:12:43is that if you have a man, a parent, or a woman,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47who says I am not sure
0:12:47 > 0:12:50what the person I have lost wanted,
0:12:50 > 0:12:58that right to say no has to be absolute.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01It is important the family has the
0:13:01 > 0:13:04right in the end, but if they haven't opted out,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07it showed they wanted to donate their organs.
0:13:07 > 0:13:12Political independence is a subject that is often discussed.
0:13:12 > 0:13:17But recently, our independence as a footballing nation
0:13:17 > 0:13:19has been a topic of discussion.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22That's because Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsey
0:13:22 > 0:13:27have been photographed in Team GB Olympic football shirts.
0:13:27 > 0:13:28Here's Carl Roberts.
0:13:29 > 0:13:34There's been lot of discussion since two of Wales most famous footballers
0:13:34 > 0:13:39had their photos taken wearing shirts promoting the British team.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42Who will be the next Welshman to wear the shirt?
0:13:43 > 0:13:46It is me, but I don't think I will be selected.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Seeing Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsey wearing
0:13:49 > 0:13:53the shirt has angered Wales fans and the Football Association of Wales.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58On the field, there is no doubting their ability,
0:13:58 > 0:14:03but they can expect a protest from Welsh fans who are worried
0:14:03 > 0:14:06that releasing players to the British team
0:14:06 > 0:14:09will threaten our independence as a football nation.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13Here Football Association of Wales and those in Scotland and N. Ireland
0:14:13 > 0:14:17are worried about endangering their status on an international level
0:14:17 > 0:14:20despite FIFA's promises.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24I haven't seen the evidence the Football Association of Wales has.
0:14:24 > 0:14:35If FIFA get rid of the FAW, they will also have to get rid of the FA
0:14:35 > 0:14:40in England. I don't think there is any evidence of that.
0:14:40 > 0:14:47It is a special chance for the best players in Wales.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51Do you trust Sepp Blatter with the future of the Welsh football team?
0:14:51 > 0:14:56This is an excuse on their behalf to try and create a consensus,
0:14:56 > 0:14:59to support this British team.
0:14:59 > 0:15:05But this threatens Wales's independence in my view.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09I think it's sad that this has turned political
0:15:09 > 0:15:12but my focus is on the football.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14This is the football fans' shirt.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18The players' shirt is expected to be launched in the New Year.
0:15:18 > 0:15:23But the question is whether Welsh players should wear it.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31Karl Roberts in his shirt. I'll start with chopper, Aled Edwards.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35Chopper is your nickname when he plays for, who?
0:15:35 > 0:15:40- The Welsh Cricket Club in Treforest every Thursday.- An amazing team.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44Would you wear the shirt?
0:15:44 > 0:15:47I'd rather someone take my teeth out without anaesthetic.
0:15:48 > 0:15:53I believe that the Olympic Association has insulted Wales
0:15:53 > 0:15:57and its fans in an awful way.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00If any organisation who received Lottery money
0:16:00 > 0:16:05had acted in the same manner, then that wouldn't have happened.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08There is a moral question here as well.
0:16:08 > 0:16:09If they treat us like this,
0:16:09 > 0:16:13how are they treating those making the shirts in poor countries.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15We'll discuss that later.
0:16:15 > 0:16:21Explain to us why you think that this endangers the FAW?
0:16:21 > 0:16:24I believe that Bethan has made that point.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26We have argued about the poppy,
0:16:26 > 0:16:31do we make sure that those in FIFA protect our game in the future?
0:16:31 > 0:16:34They can change their minds tomorrow.
0:16:34 > 0:16:40There is no certainty in the world that we would get that.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44This is what the fans are saying. Why should we lose our game?
0:16:44 > 0:16:47We have been supporting it for years to get tickets
0:16:47 > 0:16:51and shirts for something as corporate as the Olympic Association.
0:16:51 > 0:16:56Myrddin, I take it you don't play football
0:16:56 > 0:16:58nor have an exotic nickname.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00Do you share this pain?
0:17:01 > 0:17:06It's not something that keeps me awake at night
0:17:06 > 0:17:12but the Olympics come to Britain once in 50 years?
0:17:12 > 0:17:18If we have a chance for some of our best players to take part
0:17:18 > 0:17:22every 50 years, this doesn't worry me much.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24I worry about independence.
0:17:24 > 0:17:30Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England as an FA in itself.
0:17:30 > 0:17:35I think that I trust FIFA that they will have independence
0:17:35 > 0:17:38to play in the World Cup.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43But from a football point of view,
0:17:43 > 0:17:47I don't really understand why football is in the Olympics at all.
0:17:47 > 0:17:52It's not an important tournament, they are all young players.
0:17:52 > 0:17:57For me, the Olympics are games that don't get much attention
0:17:57 > 0:17:59the rest of the year.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02I agree with that.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Rugby is not in the Olympics but you have the Rugby World Cup.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08You have a FIFA World Cup.
0:18:08 > 0:18:12If we get this confirmation that Wales will play as a nation,
0:18:12 > 0:18:17I agree. Let's put these players on an international level.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21Simon Brooks, what's happened is that the players' sponsors, Adidas,
0:18:21 > 0:18:24has said that this is a photo shoot.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28They've told the players to wear the shirt and they'll take photos.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Perhaps the players hadn't realised.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36I think that this is a marketing strategy.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40There is emphasis on football in the Olympic games
0:18:40 > 0:18:43because football is the game of the people in Britain.
0:18:43 > 0:18:48That is why there is emphasis on football in the London Olympics.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52It draws people in. That's important.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57Having a British team is a novelty.
0:18:57 > 0:19:02It's different. You can create an efficient marketing campaign.
0:19:02 > 0:19:08I agree with Aled, anomaly in the international football world
0:19:08 > 0:19:11is that the game in Britain has more than one team.
0:19:11 > 0:19:17Other countries see this as a throwback to the British Empire
0:19:17 > 0:19:21when the Britons can do whatever they wanted.