0:00:20 > 0:00:21Welcome to the programme.
0:00:21 > 0:00:23We're not in CF99 tonight,
0:00:23 > 0:00:25as the Assembly building is closed due to the strike.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28So here we are in CF5.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30Tonight we're discussing the effect of the strike.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34A hard kick for the Government or a pointless protest?
0:00:34 > 0:00:38And as the Chancellor predicts some very lean years for the economy,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42when and how will the silver lining come for Wales?
0:00:42 > 0:00:46The four joining us tonight are the Plaid Cymru AM Jonathan Edwards,
0:00:46 > 0:00:48who is in Carmarthen,
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Llyr Roberts from Cardiff Business School,
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Elaine Edwards from the teachers' union UCAC,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55and Iestyn Davies of the Federation of Small Businesses.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57Welcome to you all.
0:00:57 > 0:01:04More than 1500 schools closed and 500 operations postponed or cancelled.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Some libraries, courts, councils and roads closed.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10These are some of the effects of the strike in Wales today.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14David Cameron said the action was "irresponsible,"
0:01:14 > 0:01:18but the unions' message is that public sector workers
0:01:18 > 0:01:23should not have to pay more, accept less and work longer for their pension.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Here's Elliw Gwawr.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Protesting to protect their pensions.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34Across the public sector, from teachers to bus drivers,
0:01:34 > 0:01:40health workers to librarians, there is discontent with the UK Government's plans
0:01:40 > 0:01:43to make changes to pensions.
0:01:43 > 0:01:49The Government is asking workers to pay more into their pensions,
0:01:49 > 0:01:53and to work longer and retire later.
0:01:53 > 0:01:59They've also linked the growth in pensions after the person retires
0:01:59 > 0:02:06with the less generous measure of inflation, the CPI, rather than the RPI.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11Despite the fact that unions and the Government have been in discussion since the summer,
0:02:11 > 0:02:14they have not yet managed to reach an agreement.
0:02:14 > 0:02:19These workers are marching through the city today to make it clear to the Government
0:02:19 > 0:02:23that they are not happy with its plans to change their pensions.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28I have spoken to a number of people who say they are very angry with the plans,
0:02:28 > 0:02:34and that if they must, they're prepared to strike over and over again.
0:02:34 > 0:02:39The Government has forced teachers and unions to go on strike today,
0:02:39 > 0:02:43since they've refused to negotiate on so many areas of the plans.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47They're asking teachers to pay 50% more every month into their pension,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50and work for years longer, and at the end of it,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53accept on average some 50% less.
0:02:53 > 0:02:59The Prime Minister argues that the changes will still mean they get the best possible pensions.
0:02:59 > 0:03:05Pensions which, they say, are still much better than those in the private sector.
0:03:05 > 0:03:12In the private sector, employers only pay half into the pension
0:03:12 > 0:03:14what public sector employers do.
0:03:14 > 0:03:20But you could say that the best thing would be to raise that level in the private sector
0:03:20 > 0:03:22to match that of the public sector.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25But firstly, the private sector cannot afford that,
0:03:25 > 0:03:28and it's now clear that the public sector can't afford it.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32The unions say that George Osborne's decision
0:03:32 > 0:03:37to limit public sector pay rises to 1% for another two years
0:03:37 > 0:03:40will make it harder still to come to an agreement.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43And as both sides' viewpoints become more entrenched,
0:03:43 > 0:03:47it's possible that this is only the beginning.
0:03:47 > 0:03:48Elliw Gwawr.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Well, Elaine Edwards, as one of the unions on strike today,
0:03:52 > 0:03:54David Cameron called it a damp squib.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58Well, I have to say that it wasn't a damp squib in Cardiff today,
0:03:58 > 0:04:00nor throughout the rest of Wales, I would say.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03With that many schools closed,
0:04:03 > 0:04:05the effect can be seen clearly, of course.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07For anyone at the rally in Cardiff today,
0:04:07 > 0:04:11the strength of feeling and unity between the unions
0:04:11 > 0:04:17and the individuals there, some on strike for the first time for more than 30 years,
0:04:17 > 0:04:22their feelings were strong enough to send a strong message to the Westminster Government.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24The strike is about pensions, of course.
0:04:24 > 0:04:25But is there a wider context,
0:04:25 > 0:04:30that these public sector workers have seen their salaries effectively frozen,
0:04:30 > 0:04:35an announcement again that they will be frozen or kept down over the next few years,
0:04:35 > 0:04:39reducing in real terms - is there a more general anger?
0:04:39 > 0:04:44I think our members are very aware that whatever happens to pensions,
0:04:44 > 0:04:49it could affect future recruitment for the sector.
0:04:49 > 0:04:55It will have an effect in the future on the profession and future pupils, too.
0:04:55 > 0:05:01It is also a fact that freezing salaries for two years, and now the announcement yesterday,
0:05:01 > 0:05:071% at most in the future, and a review of public sector salaries,
0:05:07 > 0:05:14that will mean that people find their salary has been cut in real terms, once again,
0:05:14 > 0:05:19and it will be impossible for them to afford the extra contributions.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22Iestyn, as someone representing the private sector here,
0:05:22 > 0:05:24do you have any sympathy for people like Elaine?
0:05:24 > 0:05:25I do.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28We have to accept the fact that anyone losing out
0:05:28 > 0:05:31on a salary or a pension will feel that way.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35But the truth is that we are all facing the same situation.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37We're in a very difficult situation.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42By now, people in the private sector have seen the same kind of situation.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45I know the unions will say, why can't everyone be treated the same,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48why must everyone suffer?
0:05:48 > 0:05:50So we need to find a positive way forward.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54We need to find a new way of having these discussions.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56Striking doesn't work, we all know that.
0:05:56 > 0:06:02It's an old technique that has had its day.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05Jonathan, strikes don't work, what will the implications of today be?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08Who has done best out of today?
0:06:08 > 0:06:11Well, my father, during his career, was a shop steward,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14and his nickname was "John Strike."
0:06:14 > 0:06:17So I was very supportive of today's protest.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20It's about more than pensions, I think.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23It's about creating a fairer society,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26and there are wider implications to that.
0:06:26 > 0:06:30But in terms of pensions, the Public Accounts Committee in Parliament
0:06:30 > 0:06:33has just reported that they are sound, the Hutton Report said the same thing,
0:06:33 > 0:06:35and the National Audit Office as well.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37So there's no reason to make these cuts.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42I asked a question in Parliament a couple of weeks ago about the Teachers' Pension Scheme,
0:06:42 > 0:06:45asking when they made the last valuation.
0:06:45 > 0:06:50The Government hasn't looked at the pension since 2004, so how can they say that they're unsustainable?
0:06:50 > 0:06:53But what has been achieved by the strike today?
0:06:53 > 0:06:55Haven't parents and children...
0:06:55 > 0:07:00They've had to find something to do with their children, they've had to take a day off work,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03people like that are affected.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05The division line, in my opinion,
0:07:05 > 0:07:09isn't between ordinary people in the private sector and public sector workers,
0:07:09 > 0:07:12but between ordinary people and the super-rich.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14I've been putting measures down in Parliament,
0:07:14 > 0:07:18raising questions, along with working with charities like ActionAid,
0:07:18 > 0:07:25who show that 98 out of the 100 FTSE 100 companies use subsidies in tax havens,
0:07:25 > 0:07:26so as not to pay tax.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29That's where the Government should be aiming the axe,
0:07:29 > 0:07:30not at ordinary people.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34Llyr, if we look at what's been going on here,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38as Jonathan suggested, the coffers are meant to be relatively healthy.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43What happens, in reality, is a kind of additional tax of 3% on the public sector,
0:07:43 > 0:07:46to help clear the deficit.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48It's got nothing really to do with pensions.
0:07:48 > 0:07:53Hmmm... For me personally, I work partly in the private sector
0:07:53 > 0:07:55and partly in the public sector.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57I have sympathy for both sides.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01But we have to accept that the population is ageing,
0:08:01 > 0:08:03and in the long term, we can't afford...
0:08:03 > 0:08:05We'll have to take this hit,
0:08:05 > 0:08:09and the private sector, unfortunately, has taken the hit.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12But wait a second, what happens to those people in the private sector,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16and what will happen to the people in the public sector,
0:08:16 > 0:08:18is that the state will have to pick up the tab whatever,
0:08:18 > 0:08:21through pension credits, if they fall below the threshold,
0:08:21 > 0:08:23the state will have to pay anyway.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27There's certainly an argument in that,
0:08:27 > 0:08:34but in the end, I'm not enough of an economics expert to have all the details on that.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37But to me, whichever way I look at it, everyone...
0:08:37 > 0:08:42Unfortunately, we're all going to be poorer over the next few years.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46We're all going to have to sacrifice some amount of our wealth.
0:08:46 > 0:08:52There are huge myths, aren't there? We talk about the super-rich, but where are these super-rich people?
0:08:52 > 0:08:54Do they work in the private sector?
0:08:54 > 0:08:58No, they don't. They more than likely work in the public sector, and those who...
0:08:58 > 0:09:00We're talking about bankers, aren't we?
0:09:00 > 0:09:04And unfortunately there aren't many bankers in Wales, are there?
0:09:04 > 0:09:08So these people earning extremely high salaries,
0:09:08 > 0:09:13they don't, as such, belong to the private sector, especially here in Wales.
0:09:13 > 0:09:18But, Iestyn, many voices from workers in the private sector today
0:09:18 > 0:09:21were supporting the strike, saying, we sympathise,
0:09:21 > 0:09:27and that private sector pensions should perhaps rise rather than bringing public sector pensions down.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31That doesn't answer the real question you have asked.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34The question is, how do we fund pensions in the long term
0:09:34 > 0:09:35for an ageing population.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38That's the question that no-one has really answered yet.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42We have to consider as well, yes, the population is ageing,
0:09:42 > 0:09:46but if you expect people to work until they're 67 or 68
0:09:46 > 0:09:49before they can get full access to their work pension,
0:09:49 > 0:09:53that means you're looking at an older workforce.
0:09:53 > 0:09:59You then have to consider what happens in terms of the standards of work when people get older.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Some will be able to do their work the same as usual,
0:10:02 > 0:10:04but some will be ready to leave work,
0:10:04 > 0:10:09because their energy has gone and their perseverance in the job, perhaps, has gone.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13And what happens to young people who want to come in and start a career?
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Do you accept, Elaine, at least,
0:10:16 > 0:10:23that the days when people were more or less forced to stop work when they were 60 in some sectors,
0:10:23 > 0:10:25that those days have gone?
0:10:25 > 0:10:29- And perhaps if people want to continue working, they should be allowed to.- Oh, definitely.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32If someone feels healthy and able enough to keep on with their work,
0:10:32 > 0:10:37but there are jobs here that have big challenges to them,
0:10:37 > 0:10:41and you also have to consider the young people who will be wanting to start a career.
0:10:41 > 0:10:42What happens?
0:10:42 > 0:10:4840% of teachers who left university last year haven't managed to find a permanent job.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52In one year, they are newly qualified teachers.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56What will happen when the teachers who are currently in the profession
0:10:56 > 0:10:58have to work for eight more years?
0:10:58 > 0:11:02Llyr, we've talked about bed-blocking in hospitals,
0:11:02 > 0:11:03what about job-blocking?
0:11:03 > 0:11:07That's certainly a point, but you also have to remember, those are the young people
0:11:07 > 0:11:10who'll be paying the tax to pay for these pensions.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13- It's a balance in that.- Well, if they get work, that is.- Well, yes...
0:11:13 > 0:11:17This is a very thorny issue, but in the end, the present situation,
0:11:17 > 0:11:22I think the gap between conditions and pensions in the public sector
0:11:22 > 0:11:26and those in the private sector has got too big and is unsustainable.
0:11:27 > 0:11:33The danger is that we create great ill-feeling in the rest of society,
0:11:33 > 0:11:37who are feeling, we are struggling, why should we be paying so much towards pensions?
0:11:37 > 0:11:39Why don't we have our own pensions?
0:11:39 > 0:11:44- Many people working for Welsh small businesses, for example, have no pension.- Thanks, for the moment.
0:11:44 > 0:11:49Well, according to George Osborne, the situation in the nation's coffers is even worse than expected.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53Government public spending cuts will continue longer,
0:11:53 > 0:11:56and more public sector workers will lose their jobs as a result.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00The economic research group IPPR North has told CF99
0:12:00 > 0:12:07that it expects the Welsh economy to suffer worse than any other part of the UK.
0:12:07 > 0:12:08Here's Arwyn Jones.
0:12:19 > 0:12:20As autumn turns to winter,
0:12:20 > 0:12:23as the temperatures start to drop and the days shorten,
0:12:23 > 0:12:29it is perhaps inevitable that only the dogs are still lively at this time of year.
0:12:29 > 0:12:34And the forecasts for the future aren't too hopeful, either.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37Our debt challenge is even greater than we thought,
0:12:37 > 0:12:41because the boom was even bigger, the bust even deeper,
0:12:41 > 0:12:44and the effects will last even longer.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47After the Chancellor's statement yesterday,
0:12:47 > 0:12:54we now expect still more public sector workers to lose their jobs over the next few years -
0:12:54 > 0:13:00700,000, rather than the 400,000 originally predicted by the UK Government.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04So for the economy, just like the weather at the moment,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07there are lean times on the horizon.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11And according to economic research group IPPR North,
0:13:11 > 0:13:15there's a very stormy decade ahead for the Welsh economy.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18They say that the number of people in work in Wales
0:13:18 > 0:13:23will fall by 46,000 by 2020 compared to 2008.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28If you look at the sorts of jobs that people tend to do in those places,
0:13:28 > 0:13:31those areas are much more reliant on the public sector,
0:13:31 > 0:13:33they're much more reliant on manufacturing
0:13:33 > 0:13:37in order to provide jobs, and those are areas of employment
0:13:37 > 0:13:42that we know have been hit very hard during the recession, and as part of the austerity measures.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44And you're seeing the effects of that.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47As a result, the recovery is going to take longer in those places.
0:13:47 > 0:13:53So what's likely to happen to all these public sector workers who are going to lose their jobs?
0:13:53 > 0:13:59well, the UK Government hopes and expects that as we come out of the economic crisis,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03the economy will be stronger,
0:14:03 > 0:14:08and the private sector will be able to step into the breach and create more jobs.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10But is there another answer, as well?
0:14:10 > 0:14:17One economist's answer would be for public sector workers to put their unemployment benefit to work.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21What we don't know, of course, is what people in the public sector will do.
0:14:21 > 0:14:26Some of them might be quite happy to start a business or do something.
0:14:26 > 0:14:33If the Welsh Government was able to help those who are going to lose their jobs start a business,
0:14:33 > 0:14:35that might be a way out of this problem.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40There was a glimmer of good news for Wales from the Chancellor yesterday.
0:14:40 > 0:14:48£216 million, which could be used for building schools, hospitals or even roads.
0:14:48 > 0:14:49One thing we don't see is,
0:14:49 > 0:14:52no railway project at all has been announced.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57These's nothing referring to the Severn Bridge,
0:14:57 > 0:15:01even though they're going to halve the toll over the Humber Bridge
0:15:01 > 0:15:02in the north of England.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06Every cloud has a silver lining, as the old saying goes,
0:15:06 > 0:15:09and the green shoots of recovery are hoped for.
0:15:09 > 0:15:14But for Wales, the economic darkness could continue for years to come.
0:15:17 > 0:15:18Arwyn Jones there.
0:15:18 > 0:15:22Jonathan Edwards, why don't we start with those IPPR figures.
0:15:22 > 0:15:27Do you share the vision that things will be much worse in Wales than the rest of Britain?
0:15:28 > 0:15:29We've been warning of this
0:15:29 > 0:15:32ever since the austerity programme was announced.
0:15:32 > 0:15:35If you withdraw public money at the current level,
0:15:35 > 0:15:37it will obviously affect areas of the state
0:15:37 > 0:15:42that are more dependent of public sector money.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46So everything we have been predicting since 2008 is coming true, unfortunately.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48That gives me very little pleasure.
0:15:48 > 0:15:52Yesterday's OBR figures were alarming.
0:15:52 > 0:15:58Then in the Autumn Statement, we saw a number of policies being recited as a sort of panic,
0:15:58 > 0:16:01to try to cover up those figures.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05The signature policy, of course, was the Capital Investment Programme,
0:16:05 > 0:16:09Arwyn spoke about it just then, £30 billion worth for the Government,
0:16:09 > 0:16:13£5 billion from the Treasury, £25 billion from pension funds,
0:16:13 > 0:16:18but, of course, the only part of that that affects the funding of the Welsh Government
0:16:18 > 0:16:23is the £5 billion from the Treasury, which means that we'll only get £200 million,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26instead of the £1.5 billion we're supposed to get.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30It's disgraceful that the Welsh Government has been boasting and talking up this money
0:16:30 > 0:16:33in the days leading up to the Statement.
0:16:33 > 0:16:39And on that point, you as a party here in Cardiff have been putting pressure in Carwyn Jones's government
0:16:39 > 0:16:42to spend and invest more in building projects and so on.
0:16:44 > 0:16:50Yesterday, to all intents and purposes, George Osborne announced exactly what you've been calling for.
0:16:50 > 0:16:51Well, exactly.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54He announced our policy going into the Assembly elections,
0:16:54 > 0:16:57which was Build for Wales, using money from pension funds,
0:16:57 > 0:17:02and using it for measure of investment in infrastructure.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04That then creates demand in the economy.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08The big problem we have at the moment is that there's no demand in the economy.
0:17:08 > 0:17:09This is the only way of doing it.
0:17:09 > 0:17:15The disgrace is that this hasn't been adopted earlier by the Welsh Government.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17The Welsh Government itself
0:17:17 > 0:17:21was having these discussions with the Treasury before the Assembly elections.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25The Labour Party denied that during the elections and tried to undermine the policy,
0:17:25 > 0:17:28and they've sat on their hands ever since then.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33What's happened now is that England is ahead, and we're not getting our fair share of funding from it,
0:17:33 > 0:17:37and the Welsh Government is trying to make out that they've had some kind of special deal
0:17:37 > 0:17:41when the UK Government was completely pulled the wool over their eyes.
0:17:41 > 0:17:46Llyr, another piece struck me from the Chancellor's statement.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50He said that the economy needs to be rebalanced in those areas of Britain
0:17:50 > 0:17:55where the public sector was too strong and the private sector too weak.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59He obviously means Wales, and possibly also north-east England.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04And the suggestion of how to do that was through introducing regional salaries.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06That is, the idea that Welsh public sector salaries
0:18:06 > 0:18:10would be lower than, say, those in the south of England.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12What do you make of that?
0:18:13 > 0:18:15Well, in the long term,
0:18:15 > 0:18:19the only way we'll get ourselves out of this tangled hole we're in
0:18:19 > 0:18:22is through making things.
0:18:24 > 0:18:29Over the last decade, we've moved too far into the financial sector and the public sector.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32We've stopped manufacturing.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35Somehow, we need to start to compete again.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40I'm sorry if we have to make salaries more flexible
0:18:40 > 0:18:45just to make ourselves more competitive internationally, but we have to look into it.
0:18:45 > 0:18:51But how does cutting the salaries of tax workers in Llanishen in Cardiff,
0:18:51 > 0:18:56compared to tax workers in Brighton, stimulate the manufacturing industries of Wales?
0:18:56 > 0:19:00That's a completely unfair situation, isn't it?
0:19:00 > 0:19:03I was glad to see Carwyn Jones saying he'd then have to look at the situation
0:19:03 > 0:19:08and perhaps expect to have the pay and conditions of Welsh public sector workers devolved to Wales.
0:19:08 > 0:19:13We as a union for teachers have been calling for that since we were established,
0:19:13 > 0:19:19and we're disappointed that no Welsh government thus far has had the guts, to be honest,
0:19:19 > 0:19:21to take that responsibility.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25We feel that leaving the responsibility in the hands of people in Westminster
0:19:25 > 0:19:27is dangerous at the moment.
0:19:27 > 0:19:32Michael Gove wants to see every headteacher determining what individual teachers will be paid.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35We feel that that is dangerous.
0:19:35 > 0:19:40Do you really feel that if the whole thing was devolved, and Leighton Andrews has been picketing today,
0:19:40 > 0:19:45which implies that he would support you, that a government here could safeguard your salaries?
0:19:45 > 0:19:47What's happened to further education lecturers -
0:19:47 > 0:19:52it is devolved to Wales there in terms of their local situations.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55They are now in a better situation than those in England.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00So there are way of safeguarding, and they're not as safe at the moment in Westminster's hands.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03Iestyn, from the point of view of small businesses,
0:20:03 > 0:20:08is that the way to get thousands of new businesses blooming in Wales, cutting public sector salaries?
0:20:08 > 0:20:10It's certainly more complicated than that, of course,
0:20:10 > 0:20:12but it's an economic theory.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14If you pay people in the public sector less,
0:20:14 > 0:20:19there's less of a challenge to pay people in the private sector,
0:20:19 > 0:20:23because people don't want to move from a high salary
0:20:23 > 0:20:28to a smaller one in the private sector, as happens.
0:20:28 > 0:20:29That's the theory.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31The truth is, and we have to be straightforward here,
0:20:31 > 0:20:35is that too many people work in the public sector in Wales, we all accept that.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39The question is whether we accept the fact that something needs to be done about it,
0:20:39 > 0:20:43and are we willing to swallow this bitter pill with its unpleasant taste,
0:20:43 > 0:20:49or are we going to keep persuading ourselves that we can carry on the same way?
0:20:49 > 0:20:51There's no way in that.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54Does the private sector take the strain, if you like?
0:20:54 > 0:20:57Does it expand? No, it doesn't, Llyr.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00The private sector competes on an international level now.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03We're competing with China and Brazil.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07We have to use every weapon we have to transform our economy.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10It's a huge challenge, but we have no choice.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14Otherwise it will just worsen and we'll get poorer and poorer over the next decades.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18Jonathan Edwards, do we have to accept this bitter pill of regional salaries?
0:21:18 > 0:21:20I think it's a disgraceful policy.
0:21:20 > 0:21:25The Labour party introduced it, of course, for court workers during their last reign,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28and it's come back to bite us.
0:21:28 > 0:21:32Are we really saying that private sector workers in London
0:21:32 > 0:21:36earning on average twice the salary of the private sector in Wales,
0:21:36 > 0:21:40that public sector workers in London are going to get twice the salary
0:21:40 > 0:21:42of public sector workers in Wales?
0:21:42 > 0:21:46IN an area like London, although it's the richest area in the EU,
0:21:46 > 0:21:52where per capita public spending is much higher than in Wales.
0:21:52 > 0:22:00It's disgraceful, and it would only entrench the regional and individual wealth inequalities
0:22:00 > 0:22:01that exist in the UK.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08And Jonathan, in his statement yesterday the Chancellor said that it is bleak, of course,
0:22:08 > 0:22:13but this depends on the future of the Euro and the discussions there,
0:22:13 > 0:22:16and if they fail, it could be much worse.
0:22:16 > 0:22:17What do you predict?
0:22:17 > 0:22:23Certainly, if things go wrong in the Eurozone, it will have huge consequences for us.
0:22:23 > 0:22:29But this is what is so wrong with the UK Government's economic policy -
0:22:29 > 0:22:33it's been modelled on what happened in the 1990s,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36and at that time, the US economy was flying,
0:22:36 > 0:22:39so they could have that export-led recovery.
0:22:40 > 0:22:46IN our case, the trading partners of the UK are in Europe, of course,
0:22:46 > 0:22:48and they're in a worse mess than us.
0:22:48 > 0:22:54So this whole programme of cutting public spending as fast as he has decided to do
0:22:54 > 0:22:56is completely irresponsible.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00Iestyn, do you get the feeling that I sometimes get,
0:23:00 > 0:23:04that no-one quite knows where the hell we are or what the hell we're doing?
0:23:04 > 0:23:07Well, I have no hard and fast answers either.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Yes, to some extent, but the truth is
0:23:09 > 0:23:13that since we've all bought into the capitalist economic system we have,
0:23:13 > 0:23:19the only way out of this at the moment, unless we bring in a different system,
0:23:19 > 0:23:23is the kind of system we're talking about.
0:23:25 > 0:23:30Cutting salaries, making ourselves much more competitive here in Wales
0:23:30 > 0:23:33than the economy in other places in Europe.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35That's how the system works.
0:23:35 > 0:23:40So if we buy into that system and appreciate what that system has brought us,
0:23:40 > 0:23:42as individuals and a nation, we have to accept those rules.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46A very quick word, Elaine, to close. More cuts, more strikes?
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Well, We're going to return to the negotiating table now,
0:23:49 > 0:23:54- and what I think we're certain of - I don't agree that strikes don't work -- Right.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56- They have put pressure on the Government.- OK.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58Well, thanks very much to all four of you.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00That's all for tonight.
0:24:00 > 0:24:05Join us back at the Senedd next Wednesday night at 10:20pm.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07- From CF5 2YQ, good night. - Good night.
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