0:00:20 > 0:00:22Hello and welcome to CF99.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Coming up tonight: Still no agreement between Radio Cymru
0:00:26 > 0:00:30and the musicians - we'll hear from the director of BBC Wales.
0:00:30 > 0:00:36This is a complicated situation. It'll take some time to resolve.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38We've heard from Cameron and Clegg.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42Tonight, the view from the backbenches of the coalition.
0:00:42 > 0:00:47Has the coalition been a success? What are the tensions?
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Will it last for another two and a half years?
0:00:50 > 0:00:56Joining us tonight are the Labour MP for Swansea East, Sian James,
0:00:56 > 0:00:59the Plaid Cymru Assembly Member for Arfon, Alun Ffred Jones,
0:00:59 > 0:01:04and the political commentator and former minister Rod Richards.
0:01:04 > 0:01:09We'll discuss the dispute between the BBC and Welsh musicians in a moment.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13But first to Westminster, where the coalition has arrived
0:01:13 > 0:01:15at the midway point of the parliamentary term.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19We asked the Conservative MP Guto Bebb
0:01:19 > 0:01:22to give his views on the government.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33In Wales, we're familiar with coalitions, but it's new in London.
0:01:33 > 0:01:38There are a number of questions to answer.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Has the coalition been a success? What are those successes?
0:01:41 > 0:01:45What have the tensions been between the two parties
0:01:45 > 0:01:49and is the coalition going to last for another two and a half years?
0:01:49 > 0:01:52The priority was to stabilise the economy
0:01:52 > 0:01:55and to make sure the Westminster Government could pay its way.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59In that sense, the last two years has been a success.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01But there have been failings,
0:02:01 > 0:02:04in any coalition there will be difficulties.
0:02:04 > 0:02:09But what people want is stability in the economy.
0:02:09 > 0:02:14Things like the Lords are small issues
0:02:14 > 0:02:19in comparison to the success of the economy.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26The challenge over the next few months will throw up
0:02:26 > 0:02:28two difficult situations.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30We need to avoid another recession
0:02:30 > 0:02:34because a triple dip would be a major disaster.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38We hope the figures show that there's still growth in the economy.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43The second issue is Europe. That is a very important issue.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48It could create problems. Particularly within the Tory party.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Since the coalition was formed, people have questioned
0:02:54 > 0:02:57whether it would survive the political time.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00There have been difficult times,
0:03:00 > 0:03:03not least to the vote on the House of Lords.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07But I don't think anything has damaged the coalition.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09I see it lasting until 2015.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13What about the future?
0:03:13 > 0:03:19We said if we deal with the debt, the electorate would thank us.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24The opinion polls don't reflect that at the moment.
0:03:24 > 0:03:30But the Tory vote it seems to be just 4% lower than in 2010.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35That is not a terrible situation,
0:03:35 > 0:03:39considering the big decisions we have been forced to make.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43We want to continue to grow the economy
0:03:43 > 0:03:46and help improve the situation in the country.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Rod Richards, are you surprised that the coalition
0:03:52 > 0:03:58has survived relatively comfortably so far?
0:03:59 > 0:04:06We saw the two leaders coming together a few days ago.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10Before Christmas it looked as though the coalition
0:04:10 > 0:04:14was starting to disintegrate.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18Nick Clegg was giving his own opinion and some Tory members
0:04:18 > 0:04:22were also giving their own opinion which were not necessarily
0:04:22 > 0:04:24in line with the coalition front.
0:04:24 > 0:04:28That has created some political uncertainty
0:04:28 > 0:04:30and economic uncertainty.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34They came together a few days ago to say they are still as one.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38They are determined to stand together for another two years.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40But they don't really have a choice.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43An election now would be a disaster for both parties?
0:04:43 > 0:04:48They wanted to show that political uncertainty
0:04:48 > 0:04:52will not affect the economy.
0:04:52 > 0:04:58Only one thing will win the next General Election
0:04:58 > 0:05:01for the Conservatives and possibly the coalition
0:05:01 > 0:05:05and that is the economy.
0:05:05 > 0:05:11If they can't deliver just hope in terms of the economy,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14they are in trouble.
0:05:14 > 0:05:20Sian James, it seems to me that Ed Miliband
0:05:20 > 0:05:24has proved to be a lucky leader in a way.
0:05:24 > 0:05:31Can he take advantage of the fact the coalition is not so popular?
0:05:33 > 0:05:39No, Labour has got to prove it has earned the right to be in power.
0:05:39 > 0:05:45What worries me most is that while we have this love-in
0:05:45 > 0:05:48between the two coalition parties,
0:05:48 > 0:05:54we are not concentrating on the bigger problems such as the economy.
0:05:54 > 0:06:00Things have not worked out as they had promised.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03They said that by now things would have improved.
0:06:03 > 0:06:10As we heard in the report, there could be a triple dip recession.
0:06:10 > 0:06:16A lot of people in my constituency, in Cardiff
0:06:16 > 0:06:21and across Wales are worried about the economy.
0:06:21 > 0:06:29But just saying their recipe is not working is not going to be enough.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33You have to come up with a solution yourself.
0:06:33 > 0:06:38We have got to focus on it, because people are suffering.
0:06:38 > 0:06:43We know that families in the current climate,
0:06:43 > 0:06:50when we look at benefits and so on,
0:06:50 > 0:06:55there are people facing difficult times.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59A headteacher in my constituency
0:06:59 > 0:07:06was told this week that she will lose her child benefit.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12She will lose it and she will have to pay for childcare.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16she has lost it all.
0:07:16 > 0:07:21There's another house where two people are living in it
0:07:21 > 0:07:28and they're earning £90,000. And they have lost nothing.
0:07:28 > 0:07:36That is what's worrying people. How all this is affecting them.
0:07:36 > 0:07:41The Labour Party charge-sheet is easy to put forward at the moment,
0:07:41 > 0:07:48it is the fact the coalition is not popular going to be enough?
0:07:49 > 0:07:54That is unlikely.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57It is strange in one sense that the Tories
0:07:57 > 0:08:00are still as popular as they are. Although they are unpopular,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04they are not as unpopular as you would expect in this situation.
0:08:04 > 0:08:10But if the Liberal Democrats are losing votes to Labour,
0:08:10 > 0:08:12Labour can benefit?
0:08:12 > 0:08:16When we approach the election,
0:08:16 > 0:08:20the leaders will face far more difficult questions.
0:08:20 > 0:08:26I think context is important.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29No matter who was in government,
0:08:29 > 0:08:34there were going to be significant cuts to public spending.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37The fact is that Tories
0:08:37 > 0:08:45said they would be out of this deficit by 2015.
0:08:45 > 0:08:51They haven't achieved that, and that undermines their promises.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54The big message was we are all in this together.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57In order for that message to be delivered,
0:08:57 > 0:09:04people must feel that the government's policies are fair.
0:09:04 > 0:09:09That is the message Cameron and Clegg
0:09:09 > 0:09:14have failed to deliver.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18The example of child benefit is an obvious one.
0:09:18 > 0:09:23Every policy is going to be unfair on some one.
0:09:23 > 0:09:29The objective is to make sure that you can help
0:09:29 > 0:09:33as many people as possible.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37Sometimes people for just on one side or the other,
0:09:37 > 0:09:42but they have got to be cuts.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46But they don't seem fair.
0:09:47 > 0:09:54You can mention the tax many large businesses have not been paying.
0:09:54 > 0:09:59The government is tackling this in the G8 summit.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03All these issues are very important.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06Everybody has got to shoulder some of the burden.
0:10:06 > 0:10:14- Alun Ffred, we have to move forward.- We talk about this fairness,
0:10:14 > 0:10:19and there is no doubt that there is a lot of animosity
0:10:19 > 0:10:24towards the bankers and the whole economic industry.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27As well as a lot of people have made a lot of money
0:10:27 > 0:10:32and they don't seem to be paying their share.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37I include the large businesses who have been avoiding tax in that.
0:10:37 > 0:10:43The important issue is trust. Do people have faith in the coalition?
0:10:43 > 0:10:49I don't think that they do.
0:10:49 > 0:10:56All the opinion polls say people do not have faith in the coalition.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00That was the big message from the coalition.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03The Labour government left us in a complete mess.
0:11:03 > 0:11:05Thank you. We have to move on.
0:11:05 > 0:11:12Radio Cymru is still unable to play thousands of Welsh songs
0:11:12 > 0:11:16as the dispute between Radio Cymru and Welsh musicians continues.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19It has affected the station's schedule and broadcasting hours.
0:11:19 > 0:11:25But what are the wider implications? Tomos Livingstone reports.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33It is a familiar tune, but since New Year's Eve,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36the language has been different.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41There have been fewer pop songs and more hymns and English songs.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47But where is the Welsh language pop music?
0:11:47 > 0:11:53Radio Cymru is unable to play thousands of songs
0:11:53 > 0:11:59because musicians are calling for better pay and royalties.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03We have received support from the public and many other agencies.
0:12:03 > 0:12:08They include poets, the Archdriud and a number of organisations.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12They can see that the situation is unfair.
0:12:12 > 0:12:17We have only have that support since withdrawing all this music.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21It also shows that the music is very valuable
0:12:21 > 0:12:24than what PRS and the BBC thought it was.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28Until last year, the musicians were members of PRS,
0:12:28 > 0:12:33who represented them with the broadcasters.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37But more than 300 of them moved to a new body called EOS.
0:12:37 > 0:12:43BBC Wales says EOS rejected a offer before Christmas
0:12:43 > 0:12:46just days before the old contract came to an end.
0:12:46 > 0:12:52The fact Radio Cymru still hasn't reached an agreement is a problem.
0:12:52 > 0:12:57EOS has received support from many prominent figures.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00The row has turned very political.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03If this had happened in London,
0:13:03 > 0:13:08this would have been a nationwide story by now.
0:13:08 > 0:13:13The fact that one of our national services is second rate
0:13:13 > 0:13:18and can't supply the sort of service we would like to hear,
0:13:18 > 0:13:23which would attract young people, I think it is an embarrassment.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27The Government needs to do something.
0:13:27 > 0:13:33For every day this dispute goes on, they lose listeners.
0:13:33 > 0:13:41Radio Cymru, which has such a small audience, can't afford to do that.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48EOS has put a new offer before BBC Wales,
0:13:48 > 0:13:52giving the corporation until tomorrow to respond.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56But the BBC says further talks are needed.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58Will they reach an agreement?
0:13:58 > 0:14:03It is hard to believe some sort of deal will not be struck eventually.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05But money makes the world go round.
0:14:09 > 0:14:14Earlier I spoke to the director of BBC Wales, Rhodri Talfan Davies,
0:14:14 > 0:14:19and asked him why reaching a settlement has been so difficult?
0:14:19 > 0:14:25This is public money, so it is vital that we reach a settlement
0:14:25 > 0:14:29which is fair and sustainable.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32- Is there an agreement on the horizon? - I hope so.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36We held talks earlier this week and continued to do so
0:14:36 > 0:14:41towards the end of the week,
0:14:41 > 0:14:45but this is a difficult and complicated situation.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48I think it will take time to resolve.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52- Are we talking weeks or months? - I don't know.
0:14:52 > 0:14:58There are two sides, and I don't want to put a timetable on it.
0:14:58 > 0:15:04BBC Wales is eager to reach a settlement as soon as possible.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08There is also a third party, which is Radio Cymru listeners.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12People are working very hard to maintain the service,
0:15:12 > 0:15:16but it is not the same service as it was.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19I would like to pay tribute to the team at Radio Cymru.
0:15:19 > 0:15:25They have been working hard to maintain this service.
0:15:25 > 0:15:29It is not the ideal service at the moment.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34But there are many parties that need to be represented.
0:15:34 > 0:15:39As a public body, and during such a difficult financial time,
0:15:39 > 0:15:43it is important that we reach a sustainable settlement.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47That is at the heart of our discussions.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50What is a fair price for these royalties?
0:15:50 > 0:15:53You say these are difficult financial times,
0:15:53 > 0:15:58but S4C has managed to reach an agreement in the past.
0:15:58 > 0:16:03S4C is an independent body, as you well know.
0:16:03 > 0:16:09I don't know what was agreed was between S4C and Eos.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13What's in front of us is a number of offers from Eos.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16We have also made a number of offers to Eos
0:16:16 > 0:16:19which could increase the price of the royalties.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22This would acknowledge their cultural value.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27I think we have moved forward over the last few months
0:16:27 > 0:16:30and I hope we can reach agreement in the near future.
0:16:30 > 0:16:35Some people say you could reach an agreement,
0:16:35 > 0:16:40but that people in London are afraid that it might set a precedent.
0:16:40 > 0:16:46I know it appeals to many to see this as a battle
0:16:46 > 0:16:49between Wales and London.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52I lead the discussion on behalf of the BBC.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56I work very closely with my staff at BBC Wales,
0:16:56 > 0:16:59and I have got to make a decision.
0:16:59 > 0:17:03- Is it your decision?- Of course.
0:17:03 > 0:17:09There are many people involved in the discussions
0:17:09 > 0:17:15but I will be accountable to the taxpayers in Wales
0:17:15 > 0:17:20for the level of royalty that is set.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25I have to be certain that the level is fair and sustainable.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29But the situation in Wales is different.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33There are hundreds of radio stations which play English-language music.
0:17:33 > 0:17:40You can earn a lot of money,
0:17:40 > 0:17:43but this is the only market for these musicians.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46I agree, there is a commercial value
0:17:46 > 0:17:50but there is also a cultural value to these royalties.
0:17:50 > 0:17:55There is a unique situation here in Wales. We
0:17:55 > 0:17:58have previously acknowledged that
0:17:58 > 0:18:03and have offered what we believe is a fair price.
0:18:03 > 0:18:09It was a lot more than has been paid in the past.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13But this dispute goes back to 2006.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17That was when the money paid to musicians changed,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20because it encompassed music played in public and so on.
0:18:20 > 0:18:25This is what at the root of this dispute.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30I understand why musicians want more for their money
0:18:30 > 0:18:32because that would fill that gap.
0:18:32 > 0:18:37My responsibility is to provide a fair price.
0:18:37 > 0:18:43Alun Ffred Jones, what do you make of this?
0:18:43 > 0:18:49It is very damaging for Radio Cymru and the BBC.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53Although he said he is in charge of the discussions,
0:18:53 > 0:18:57there is no doubt that London has an influence.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59What makes you say that?
0:18:59 > 0:19:02They are afraid to make an agreement outside PRS.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06The want to use just one body.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09The word used was fairness.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14These musicians are paid something like 50p per minute
0:19:14 > 0:19:18on Radio Cymru, the national network they get around £6 a minute.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21Would members of staff at BBC Wales
0:19:21 > 0:19:27except 12 times less than other staff members in the BBC?
0:19:27 > 0:19:33Yes, but there are a lot more people listening to that radio station.
0:19:33 > 0:19:38If we take that to the extreme, we should all be paid a lot less.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41We are being paid a lot less than what we should
0:19:41 > 0:19:46but that is not happening.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51That doesn't happen because there is such a thing as a fair price.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54And that is what they are calling for.
0:19:54 > 0:20:00This is a very important source of income for many of them.
0:20:00 > 0:20:06I think we have to find a fair price.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09We have to decide whether Radio Cymru
0:20:09 > 0:20:12and Radio Wales are our national stations
0:20:12 > 0:20:16or is it just a regional broadcaster?
0:20:16 > 0:20:20What worries me is that it suggests the BBC in London
0:20:20 > 0:20:25doesn't appreciate what a Welsh-language service
0:20:25 > 0:20:27means in Wales.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30This doesn't bode well for S4C either.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Sian James, what do you make of this?
0:20:33 > 0:20:36Do the musicians have a point?
0:20:36 > 0:20:38Would you protest with them?
0:20:38 > 0:20:43We have to be fair. Many of them are trying to make a living
0:20:43 > 0:20:49and they need to earn money from us.
0:20:49 > 0:20:54They have to have a fair price for their work.
0:20:54 > 0:21:01What worries me most is that we are drawing attention
0:21:01 > 0:21:06to the differences between us in Wales and England, or London.
0:21:06 > 0:21:13I am worried what will happen as a result of this.
0:21:13 > 0:21:21If we lose ground here, what else could we lose out on in future?
0:21:21 > 0:21:25Rod Richards, you are a cynical on many issues,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28are you cynical about this?
0:21:28 > 0:21:33If this music was more popular, more people would buy it
0:21:33 > 0:21:36and they wouldn't have to rely on Radio Cymru?
0:21:36 > 0:21:40I wouldn't say that.
0:21:40 > 0:21:46This is a classic dispute between producers and customers.
0:21:46 > 0:21:51The value of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it.
0:21:51 > 0:21:57As it happens, this is a unique situation for the BBC.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01We can measure the value of this music because they can see how
0:22:01 > 0:22:05many listeners they have while they are not playing the music
0:22:05 > 0:22:09compared to what they had while they were able to play those songs.
0:22:09 > 0:22:16Otherwise it is like asking how long is a piece of string?
0:22:16 > 0:22:19But the danger is, Rod,
0:22:19 > 0:22:24once you lose an audience it can be difficult to get them back.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28If you look at the figures of S4C audiences,
0:22:28 > 0:22:33and what has happened with the Heno programme,
0:22:33 > 0:22:38that programme has found it hard to get that audience back.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40I don't agree with that.
0:22:40 > 0:22:46It is always possible to attract an audience back
0:22:46 > 0:22:51if you have something worthwhile for them to listen to.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55The truth is, I don't listen to Radio Cymru very often any more,
0:22:55 > 0:22:59I don't know what sort of effect it has on the Welsh language any more.
0:22:59 > 0:23:06When I was a young man, I used to listen to Galw Gari Tryfan.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10If that came back, maybe I would listen to Radio Cymru again!
0:23:10 > 0:23:13I don't think that included music!
0:23:13 > 0:23:17I think this is an issue about people's interests.
0:23:17 > 0:23:22Are we broadcasting what people want to hear?
0:23:22 > 0:23:29I have been asking people over the last few days to name a Welsh band.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33And to name the last Welsh record they bought.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38The last thing my son bought was a song by Carlota 10 years ago.
0:23:38 > 0:23:46The last record I bought was Sgrech by Crys in 2006.
0:23:46 > 0:23:52That says more about you than it does about Sain though!
0:23:52 > 0:23:58- But I don't even know what's available now.- Our time is up.
0:23:58 > 0:24:04Ffred, that's all for tonight, we'll be back the same time next week.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07For the time, thanks for watching. Good night.