0:00:19 > 0:00:22Hello and welcome to our first meeting this year.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Happy New Year and there is enough to discuss already.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30Tonight, independence for Scotland, the debate is hotting up.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34And the questions are coming in for the next Plaid Cymru leader.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38Boundary changes. A big change for Welsh MPs.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41How will they affect you?
0:00:41 > 0:00:46We are joined by AM Alun Ffred Jones and Nick Bennett
0:00:46 > 0:00:51and political commentator at Rod Richards. Welcome to use three.
0:00:51 > 0:00:57If you want to tweak your opinion during Earth Show,
0:00:57 > 0:01:00used the hash tag CF99.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04Plaid Cymru is still looking for a new leader,
0:01:04 > 0:01:07but while the SNP in Scotland
0:01:07 > 0:01:11are filling the front pages on their referendum debate,
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Plaid Cymru has to fight to be relevant.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17What challenges face the next leader
0:01:17 > 0:01:20and what can they learn from the Scots?
0:01:22 > 0:01:28Gwynfor Richard Evans - 16,179.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36A big moment in the history of Plaid Cymru.
0:01:36 > 0:01:41Gwynfor Evans winning the seat in Carmarthen in 1966
0:01:41 > 0:01:45addressing his party from the town hall.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Today, the town hall has seen better days and needs rebuilding work.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53After disappointing results in last year's elections,
0:01:53 > 0:01:57it's easy to see how the party needs its period of rebuilding
0:01:57 > 0:02:01considering the public opinion about them.
0:02:01 > 0:02:07The image of Plaid Cymru is that it has not yet convinced voters
0:02:07 > 0:02:13that it can do a good job in fields such as the economy.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18In Scotland,the SNP have succeeded in convincing the electorate
0:02:18 > 0:02:22to support it and as a result, independence is a hot topic.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27For Wales and Plaid Cymru, the issue is more complicated,
0:02:27 > 0:02:31with senior members saying more focus
0:02:31 > 0:02:34needs to be put on other issues.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38There is pressure on the economy and jobs are being lost.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40New ones are not being created.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44If we don't get to grips with that,
0:02:44 > 0:02:48the electorate will not trust us.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51If we ignore the things we face at the moment.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55For one former candidate and former chairman
0:02:55 > 0:03:01who has now left the party, independence is a central issue.
0:03:01 > 0:03:07The party has given up giving the cause for independence
0:03:07 > 0:03:12and for me, if independence isn't part of dealing with Wales' problems
0:03:12 > 0:03:14there's no point in it.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17If it's relevant to deal with the problems of Wales
0:03:17 > 0:03:21that we face every day, it is a central issue.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25The excitement was clear in the days of the first elections,
0:03:25 > 0:03:31but despite a strong start they lost everything.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35At the start of the devolution period,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38Plaid Cymru was the party
0:03:38 > 0:03:42that could argue best that they stood for Wales.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46By now, all the parties argue that.
0:03:46 > 0:03:52And they have developed policy programmes and more Welsh images
0:03:52 > 0:03:56so it's harder for Plaid Cymru to argue
0:03:56 > 0:04:00they are the party of Wales because many people compete for that title.
0:04:00 > 0:04:06Years ago, Carmarthen was a centre for Gwynfor's supporters,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09but what about today?
0:04:09 > 0:04:15They need to move more to the centre from the left.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19They don't have Gwynfor's vision.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23I feel he had a vision.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Alex Salmond in Scotland is very similar, I think.
0:04:26 > 0:04:31Plaid Cymru has only had five leaders
0:04:31 > 0:04:34and their journey has been a long one over the years.
0:04:34 > 0:04:40It is possible that the greatest challenge faces whoever takes over.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46The names in the frame at the moment are AM Dafydd Elis-Thomas,
0:04:46 > 0:04:49Elin Jones, Simon Thomas and Leanne Wood
0:04:49 > 0:04:53with nominations closing at the end of the month.
0:04:53 > 0:04:58Alun Ffred Jones, in terms of Plaid Cymru's priorities,
0:04:58 > 0:05:02where would you place of independence?
0:05:02 > 0:05:04It is tied in with economic issues,
0:05:04 > 0:05:09that is what Scotland has done.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12They have combined independence and the referendum,
0:05:12 > 0:05:18or the choice to go half way with this cause.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20We will come to that in a moment.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24But those everyday issues that worry people,
0:05:24 > 0:05:30such as jobs and their futures, all those things have to be tied in.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35But there are differences of opinion on independence within the party
0:05:35 > 0:05:37and unless the new leader gets to grips with it
0:05:37 > 0:05:39and is clear about their aim,
0:05:39 > 0:05:42it could turn into a kind of Europe issue for the Tories.
0:05:42 > 0:05:48It won't turn into an issue because no one in Plaid Cymru
0:05:48 > 0:05:53believes that in the end we don't need independence
0:05:53 > 0:05:56with tax-raising powers
0:05:56 > 0:06:01and legislating on internal matters and representation in Europe.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05That means independence.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10You can argue what independence is. This is central.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13This is an exciting period for candidates.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16Four candidates are in the frame,
0:06:16 > 0:06:21three of them have a lot of experience.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25One has very strong principles.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30We are going through a period of looking again at our aims
0:06:30 > 0:06:34and a way of working, so it is a very exciting time.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39Whoever takes over Plaid Cymru next, part of the problem will be
0:06:39 > 0:06:44that other parties, the Lib Dems, the Tories and Labour
0:06:44 > 0:06:46have stolen their advantage.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50Plaid Cymru was the party that defended Welsh issues
0:06:50 > 0:06:54but now the other parties have come into that area.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00I think one of the problems for Plaid Cymru
0:07:00 > 0:07:05was being part of the government and being silenced
0:07:05 > 0:07:11from giving its opinion on the Assembly government.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15When you look back over 12 years.
0:07:15 > 0:07:20Plaid Cymru is harshly criticising the current government now,
0:07:20 > 0:07:25especially on education, but that came to late
0:07:25 > 0:07:27to save them in the last election.
0:07:27 > 0:07:32When you talk about independence, this is a problem.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35I was listening to Alun Ffred Jones
0:07:35 > 0:07:39talking about tax-raising powers and spending,
0:07:39 > 0:07:43but if they want independence, you have to define it.
0:07:43 > 0:07:48If you are going to be part of Europe and the euro,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51the euro is always developing.
0:07:51 > 0:07:57Before coming to you, Nick, quickly, would an independent Wales
0:07:57 > 0:08:01be connected to the euro or the pound?
0:08:01 > 0:08:07You have to take a long time to make those decisions.
0:08:07 > 0:08:12Half a century, what are we talking about?
0:08:12 > 0:08:14Don't be silly.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19If you let me answer the question, I could say something.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23There's an argument for more control over our own lives.
0:08:23 > 0:08:28We need a parliament with proper powers
0:08:28 > 0:08:31before we start discussing the euro.
0:08:31 > 0:08:37Scotland has control over education and their legal system.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40We want that first and then we will be able to aim
0:08:40 > 0:08:44for some kind of relationship that will give us those rights.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48On monarchy, Alex Salmond has made it clear
0:08:48 > 0:08:53that the Queen would still be connected to Scotland.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57Would she or whoever, by then, be connected with Wales?
0:08:57 > 0:09:00That will be a matter for the people of Wales.
0:09:00 > 0:09:06Independence is a matter for Wales too.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08We have to come to Nick.
0:09:08 > 0:09:13This will be a question for the people of Wales.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15I think the people of Wales
0:09:15 > 0:09:19deserve a party that is clear on this question
0:09:19 > 0:09:22and it is clear that Plaid Cymru are not.
0:09:22 > 0:09:28Alex Salmond casts a shadow over the Plaid Cymru leadership
0:09:28 > 0:09:33and Europe is a big problem for them.
0:09:33 > 0:09:38I remember 1999, the party had never campaigned for independence.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42Wales in Europe was the scene.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45It is now impossible to say that without raising the problem
0:09:45 > 0:09:47of what happens with the euro.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51You were part of this convention travelling around Wales
0:09:51 > 0:09:54asking for opinions on devolution.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57How keen where people for independence?
0:09:57 > 0:09:59That is the big problem for Plaid Cymru,
0:09:59 > 0:10:05the electorate is not very keen for more independence.
0:10:05 > 0:10:10No. But to tell the truth, John Dixon had a point in that clip
0:10:10 > 0:10:14in terms of Plaid Cymru campaigning the way the SNP has.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17We found that with the convention
0:10:17 > 0:10:21that around 10% were in favour of independence,
0:10:21 > 0:10:26but 40% wanted to see other policies devolved to Wales
0:10:26 > 0:10:31so people's understanding of what independence is not clear.
0:10:31 > 0:10:37Plaid Cymru has to be clear on this matter.
0:10:37 > 0:10:43It is not a matter for the electors, the party has to give leadership.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46You can't tell them it is their decision.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Plaid Cymru's aim is an independent Wales,
0:10:49 > 0:10:51does everybody understand that?
0:10:51 > 0:10:54Can you let me finish?
0:10:54 > 0:11:00Plaid Cymru's aim, according to their policy,
0:11:00 > 0:11:02is independence for Wales.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06On the way there, we have many steps to take.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08It is interesting that Alex Salmond,
0:11:08 > 0:11:11despite the fact that he gives strong leadership,
0:11:11 > 0:11:15wants a referendum that would also give choice to the Scottish people
0:11:15 > 0:11:18to go for different levels of devolution.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21Is that your problem in Plaid Cymru?
0:11:21 > 0:11:26With all due respect, there's no Alex Salmond, a shrewd leader?
0:11:26 > 0:11:30The Lib Dems and Labour don't have an Alex Salmond either.
0:11:30 > 0:11:35But they don't want to lead people to independence.
0:11:35 > 0:11:39The SNP has a clear policy.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42The SNP is in favour of independence and that is clear.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45We don't have the same clear policy in Wales.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47There are two parties,
0:11:47 > 0:11:52one for independence and another full devolution.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55Rod Richards, how should Cameron play this?
0:11:55 > 0:11:58Alex Salmond is playing the game that he is coming in
0:11:58 > 0:12:02with his size 10 big boots and interfering in Scotland.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03What should Cameron do?
0:12:03 > 0:12:08I think Plaid Cymru and other parties have made too much
0:12:08 > 0:12:12of Alex Salmond's success.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15He came in under the radar in the last election
0:12:15 > 0:12:21and he's not as clever as some commentators say he is.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28I think Cameron was right to draw people's attention
0:12:28 > 0:12:34to the fact it would be illegal to have a referendum in Scotland
0:12:34 > 0:12:40of the type that Alex Salmond wanted.
0:12:40 > 0:12:46Both of them by now realise that they have to reach an agreement
0:12:46 > 0:12:52on a referendum and when and what the question will be.
0:12:52 > 0:12:56The last thing they want to see his debate in the High Court
0:12:56 > 0:13:02making fools of Britain and Scotland.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Alex Salmond isn't under the radar, he has been ruling Scotland
0:13:06 > 0:13:08with a minority for four years
0:13:08 > 0:13:11and had a majority in the last election.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13The big boys are playing now.
0:13:13 > 0:13:18I'm sure we'll hear a lot more about that.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Carmarthenshire was the first electorate that Plaid Cymru won
0:13:22 > 0:13:25and changes to constituency boundaries could create a seat
0:13:25 > 0:13:28in Carmarthenshire once again.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31They also intend to unite Anglesey and Menai
0:13:31 > 0:13:35and Cardiff North and Caerphilly.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Wales would lose a quarter of its MPs
0:13:38 > 0:13:40if Westminster gets its reforms.
0:13:40 > 0:13:46What was the response there this afternoon?
0:13:46 > 0:13:48As MPs have had a chance to consider
0:13:48 > 0:13:52the new electoral map being suggested for Wales
0:13:52 > 0:13:54and joining me to talk about it is the Tory MP
0:13:54 > 0:13:57for the Vale of Glamorgan, Alun Cairns
0:13:57 > 0:14:01and the Labour MP for Llanelli, Nia Griffiths.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03I will ask both of you.
0:14:03 > 0:14:08Are you happy or unhappy with what has been suggested?
0:14:08 > 0:14:12It is a difficult situation.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15The Vale of Glamorgan will now be the same size
0:14:15 > 0:14:17as other constituencies.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20In previous times, it has been very uneven.
0:14:20 > 0:14:26You are quite happy to consider the bigger picture?
0:14:26 > 0:14:28It is complicated.
0:14:28 > 0:14:33The Labour Party has come out a lot better than anyone expected.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35The Conservatives is losing out.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40There will be battles between two individuals.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43It is more complicated than people think.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45Do you agree with Alun Cairns?
0:14:45 > 0:14:49Are you feeling relieved in the party?
0:14:49 > 0:14:53I'm unhappy that Wales has less representation in Westminster,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56going from 40 to 30 MPs.
0:14:56 > 0:15:02It is fair to say the commissioners have done quite a fair job
0:15:02 > 0:15:06because they have cut down on every party.
0:15:06 > 0:15:13We in the Labour Party have come out quite well.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17What, in your opinion, is the most significant change?
0:15:17 > 0:15:23What is happening now is that we will have to get a consensus
0:15:23 > 0:15:28in our party and tell the commission
0:15:28 > 0:15:30if changes need to be made.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33But when you look at the geography of Wales,
0:15:33 > 0:15:38and when you understand we need the same number of people
0:15:38 > 0:15:44in every constituency, there's not much room to move.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Alun Cairns, did any decisions surprise you?
0:15:49 > 0:15:54Cardiff North uniting with Caerphilly,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57there's no natural connection there.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00And also some parts of Newport
0:16:00 > 0:16:04joining up with communities where I would not see natural connections.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07I am not very familiar with the communities
0:16:07 > 0:16:11so perhaps it is unfair that I give my opinion on them.
0:16:11 > 0:16:16But I think we need to look again at some areas of Cardiff.
0:16:16 > 0:16:21What is inevitable is that your party's senior figures
0:16:21 > 0:16:27will have to compete with each other.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Pembrokeshire and North Wales are obvious areas.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34We have four strong MPs in that area
0:16:34 > 0:16:37who will fight for two constituencies.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41So it does create a difficult situation.
0:16:41 > 0:16:47But we need to bring fairness back because as I said earlier,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50there will be the same number of people
0:16:50 > 0:16:53in every constituency, not as we had before
0:16:53 > 0:16:57with an extra 50% for me compared to other areas.
0:16:57 > 0:17:01Nia Griffith, how many seats does the Labour Party expect to lose?
0:17:01 > 0:17:06We'll see what happens, but perhaps something like five.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10There is a consultation period taking place,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13but in terms of the constituencies, some of them are huge.
0:17:13 > 0:17:18South Powys, in particular going from Ystalyfera up to Welshpool.
0:17:18 > 0:17:22Will it be too hard for MPs to represent their constituents
0:17:22 > 0:17:25in terms of geography if nothing else?
0:17:25 > 0:17:29I don't think it will be too hard.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34You have to remember that parts of England and Scotland
0:17:34 > 0:17:39are very remote and cover huge areas.
0:17:39 > 0:17:44In the past, Welsh constituencies were quite small,
0:17:44 > 0:17:48with technology we have nowadays, they are not too big at all.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51Is that going to be fairer, Alun Ffred Jones?
0:17:51 > 0:17:56If you look at your constituency of 40,000,
0:17:56 > 0:18:00one of the smallest in Wales in terms of voters,
0:18:00 > 0:18:05it isn't fair that Brecon and Radnorshire has 54,000 constituents
0:18:05 > 0:18:09and is so much bigger.
0:18:09 > 0:18:14We could argue that point but we believe this is a bit of a mess.
0:18:14 > 0:18:19It's only four or five years since we last changed the boundaries.
0:18:19 > 0:18:24People will be confused about who's representing them and which constituency they're in.
0:18:24 > 0:18:29I think this should be done with a view to strengthen powers in Scotland and Wales,
0:18:29 > 0:18:34that would then make sense to reduce the number of MPs.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38As things stand, we need to look carefully at the boundaries.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41The new Glyndwr and North Powys seat is an odd one.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44There's a big mountain in between!
0:18:44 > 0:18:49There are other examples where towns are split and so on.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51In terms of what Alun was saying, is the confusion,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54especially given the differences between Assembly
0:18:54 > 0:18:56and Westminster constituencies,
0:18:56 > 0:19:02is it inevitable that Assembly boundaries will change to match the Parliamentary ones?
0:19:02 > 0:19:06I think the evidence in Scotland suggests having these
0:19:06 > 0:19:08different boundaries is confusing.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11I think that's a risk. I'm in favour of cutting the number of MPs.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15It would have been a gravy train, to have carried on with 40,
0:19:15 > 0:19:20bearing in mind devolution and the amount of constituency work that was going on locally.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24I also have to say, the way that devolution is evolving,
0:19:26 > 0:19:32I'd like to see us with more Assembly Members in future.
0:19:32 > 0:19:38We can't pursue devolution and keep sending 40 MPs to Westminster.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40It's just not possible.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43Alun Ffred, it might be confusing for voters,
0:19:43 > 0:19:48but it poses a bigger challenge in terms of how to organise political parties.
0:19:48 > 0:19:53For the Assembly vote, your party is likely to campaign in Arfon.
0:19:53 > 0:19:57But perhaps in Westminster you'll have to include
0:19:57 > 0:20:00Anglesey in your campaign.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02That may be true
0:20:02 > 0:20:06but we don't consider that a very important consideration.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10- Parties will have to adapt to that. - Will that be expensive? - Of course it's expensive.
0:20:10 > 0:20:16I'm certainly against modifying these new boundaries for the Assembly.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19I think that would be very unwise.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23I don't think there should be any further shake-ups until we've gained more powers here.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27Then we can consider the point Nick raised
0:20:27 > 0:20:31over increasing the number of AMs here in relation to the workload.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35- We will then need fewer MPs. - There's an inconsistency here.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39They want independence on one hand but then again they want more MPs.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41Make your minds up, for heaven's sake.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45We want more members here, not in Parliament. You're not listening to me.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48No, you want 40 MPs rather than 30.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51I was talking about Assembly members.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54What should the system be here, Rod Richards?
0:20:54 > 0:20:58First past the post, proportional representation
0:20:58 > 0:21:01and Peter Hain wants all systems to be first past the post.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03What's your view?
0:21:03 > 0:21:07What with these new constituencies,
0:21:07 > 0:21:11the Assembly needs to look at the boundaries
0:21:11 > 0:21:15and they must then consider changing the system here.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19It's then a matter of consulting with political parties
0:21:19 > 0:21:22and other interested parties.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26I don't think that we need more Assembly Members at all.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29The ones we've got at the moment,
0:21:29 > 0:21:34to be completely honest, the ones we've got now barely work full-time.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36THEY TALK ACROSS EACH OTHER
0:21:38 > 0:21:42How many surgeries do you hold every week?
0:21:42 > 0:21:45- I hold two every week.- Two per week.
0:21:45 > 0:21:50Excuse me, maybe you don't work hard when you're here but I certainly do.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54The committees worked when I was here. They're not working now.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56Let's bring Nick Bennett in, here.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59You can act as referee.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03In terms of technology, has technology changed the work here?
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Are face-to-face surgeries necessary or, as many people said today,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09a lot of work is done online, through Facebook.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13MPs are contacted via Twitter and so on. Is that enough?
0:22:13 > 0:22:18I think it's an important element and I think we need to ensure
0:22:18 > 0:22:24members have the necessary skills to communicate with constituents.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28If you look at the size of some of these new seats,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31I think they are too big.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35After the expenses scandal and so on,
0:22:35 > 0:22:41the cost of simply driving around the Gwynedd seat or Powys South would be enormous.
0:22:41 > 0:22:47Would you be able to navigate the internet well enough to access web cameras and so on?
0:22:48 > 0:22:53More and more people are contacting us through the internet and e-mail.
0:22:53 > 0:22:59Many more than they used to and many more than are attending old fashioned surgeries.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02On the other hand, you want to meet them face-to-face.
0:23:03 > 0:23:08Speaking of Twitter and technology, thank you for all your comments.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10Adam Jones left a message saying,
0:23:10 > 0:23:16"Independence is what nationalists should be aiming for in Wales but they need to be patient.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19"We're in a totally different situation to Scotland."
0:23:19 > 0:23:24Jo Pelly tells Alun Ffred it's time to reconsider his decision not to put his name forward for leadership.
0:23:24 > 0:23:29If not, he says, support Leanne Wood's nomination. What's your response to that?
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Thank you for the offer.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34I feel as though I've had a good innings
0:23:34 > 0:23:38and I am prepared to support whoever is elected.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41- You won't reveal your preference beforehand?- No.
0:23:41 > 0:23:46- Why not? - There are many reasons that I don't think I'll go into now.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49- You're afraid to! - Not at all.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51We might find out eventually.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53Thanks to all three of you.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55That's all for tonight.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58I'll be back with Vaughan Roderick, but thanks to Arwyn tonight,
0:23:58 > 0:24:01next Wednesday night after the football at 9.45pm.
0:24:01 > 0:24:07Come on, Wrexham! We hope you'll join us then. For now, good night.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Good night.