0:00:00 > 0:00:00.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Good evening. Welcome to CF99.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Tonight, managing the police.
0:00:25 > 0:00:29What makes a good police commissioner and how will you vote?
0:00:29 > 0:00:35And what are the views on a separate legal system for Wales?
0:00:35 > 0:00:37Joining us in the Senedd tonight
0:00:37 > 0:00:40are the Chair of Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary Jones,
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Gwynedd Parry from the Law Department at Swansea University
0:00:43 > 0:00:47and, joining us from Westminster, the Labour MP Alun Michael.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49- Welcome.- Good evening.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Good evening.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53Who should police the police?
0:00:53 > 0:00:58As it stands, an authority oversees the work of every force in England and Wales
0:00:58 > 0:01:00but, from mid-November,
0:01:00 > 0:01:03one person will be responsible for that in each area.
0:01:03 > 0:01:08The UK Government hopes the elected commissioners will be more accountable to the public,
0:01:08 > 0:01:12but the opposition parties say they're expensive and unnecessary.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14Arwyn Jones reports.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19GLAS Y DORLAN THEME SONG
0:01:26 > 0:01:30- VOICEOVER:- Why not join one of Britain's modern police forces
0:01:30 > 0:01:33and enjoy a satisfying career?
0:01:34 > 0:01:39It's unsurprising that the lives of police officers have changed
0:01:39 > 0:01:44since the time of PC Gordon Hughes and Sgt Ifan Puw in Glas Y Dorlan.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47What? She hasn't...?
0:01:47 > 0:01:50I'll be there now, sir.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12Over the years, the relationship the police have with their communities
0:02:12 > 0:02:16has faced many challenges, from the Brixton riots in the early '80s
0:02:16 > 0:02:19to the poll tax protests a decade later.
0:02:19 > 0:02:25The UK Government plans to create a commissioner for every force in England and Wales.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27They will appoint the Chief Constable
0:02:27 > 0:02:31and set the force's budget and priorities.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35Two have already been linked with Dyfed-Powys Police,
0:02:35 > 0:02:39but we can now reveal that the leader of Pembrokeshire Council
0:02:39 > 0:02:42also has his eye on being a commissioner.
0:02:42 > 0:02:48I have an interest. That interest goes beyond party politics.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51I've always made it clear
0:02:51 > 0:02:55that I feel the commissioner should have an arm's length approach -
0:02:55 > 0:02:59an arm's length from political parties
0:02:59 > 0:03:02and an arm's length from political influence.
0:03:02 > 0:03:08It wouldn't be an easy job, despite the salary of over £60,000.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12The Liberal Democrats don't plan to put any candidates forward.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16Labour will have candidates despite disagreeing with the policy.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19And Plaid Cymru say you, the public, should stand.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23We've called on the people of Wales to unite with us
0:03:23 > 0:03:25if they believe, for example,
0:03:25 > 0:03:28in eventually devolving responsibility for the police.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32If they believe in taking politics out of this field,
0:03:32 > 0:03:36we're asking anyone who's willing to work with us
0:03:36 > 0:03:40and stand independently, we would support them if they are suitable.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44I have been considering it but I don't think we will.
0:03:44 > 0:03:49There are plenty of other people who can represent our ideas.
0:03:49 > 0:03:55And who better to choose the Conservative candidates for Gwent Police
0:03:55 > 0:03:58than the MP who is also a policeman?
0:03:58 > 0:04:01It's very important for the commissioner
0:04:01 > 0:04:05to have the necessary political and communication skills
0:04:05 > 0:04:07and to be accountable to the public.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10At the same time, I'd like to see someone
0:04:10 > 0:04:14who is independent of the democratic process.
0:04:14 > 0:04:19The challenge for the commissioners will be to steer clear of political interference
0:04:19 > 0:04:25but, needing £5,000 to stand and thousands more to campaign,
0:04:25 > 0:04:31there are accusations that people can only stand with the support of a party.
0:04:31 > 0:04:37If you look at Dyfed and Powys, there are around 200,000 homes.
0:04:37 > 0:04:45If you spend 50p on communicating with every home, that's £100,000.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49That's beyond being affordable for an independent individual.
0:04:49 > 0:04:54The UK Government says the aim is to make the police more accountable
0:04:54 > 0:04:57but the critics say it's expensive and pointless.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01Being a police officer can be a difficult job.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06It's unlikely the commissioners' jobs will be much easier.
0:05:06 > 0:05:07Arwyn Jones, there.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12Alun Michael, you've expressed an interest in one of these jobs
0:05:12 > 0:05:17but it's difficult, as a party, after opposing this idea,
0:05:17 > 0:05:20to offer yourself as the person who can make it work.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22Not at all.
0:05:22 > 0:05:28We said the Government had decided to spend a lot of money on this new idea,
0:05:28 > 0:05:32which has not been tried anywhere else in the world.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36But that decision has been made.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39We'll find these individuals
0:05:39 > 0:05:44and they will be given very important responsibilities.
0:05:44 > 0:05:51We need people who are experienced enough to answer to the public,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54which is part of the idea,
0:05:54 > 0:05:59but also who have enough knowledge of the way policing works
0:05:59 > 0:06:03to be accountable.
0:06:03 > 0:06:11For example, the most important thing the police do is to cut crime
0:06:11 > 0:06:18and make people safer and feel safer on the streets and in their homes.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20That's very important.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24How much of a distance should there be between
0:06:24 > 0:06:28the elected commissioners, be they politicians or not, and the parties?
0:06:28 > 0:06:31People would expect some kind of independence.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Yes, but there is independence.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38I was the Policing Minister for a period of time
0:06:38 > 0:06:43and you've got to concentrate on being accountable to the party
0:06:43 > 0:06:48on the policies of cutting crime
0:06:48 > 0:06:53and making sure the police are independent
0:06:53 > 0:06:56in the way they do their job.
0:06:56 > 0:07:02You have to go after issues like accountability, efficiency,
0:07:02 > 0:07:07co-operating with local councils, listening to what the public say
0:07:07 > 0:07:14and, to a degree, you have to stand by the party's principles.
0:07:14 > 0:07:18You can't have a democratic situation without the parties.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22All of the parties are very important.
0:07:22 > 0:07:28Gwynedd Parry, is this a problem - the arm's length business?
0:07:28 > 0:07:31If the process demands all this funding,
0:07:31 > 0:07:35they clearly need the support of a party to find that money.
0:07:35 > 0:07:40Does this bring politics into policing?
0:07:40 > 0:07:42There's a danger.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46There's a conflict between the commissioners being independent,
0:07:46 > 0:07:50not being political and thinking about the wellbeing of the community
0:07:50 > 0:07:54and the role of the police in maintaining that
0:07:54 > 0:07:56and the problem that a private individual,
0:07:56 > 0:08:00as Cllr John Davies said,
0:08:00 > 0:08:03can't carry out an effective campaign
0:08:03 > 0:08:07across a wide area like Dyfed-Powys.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11Those two things are pulling in different directions.
0:08:11 > 0:08:16You have to compromise and find a middle-ground between those two poles.
0:08:16 > 0:08:23I think the political parties have a duty to choose their candidates carefully,
0:08:23 > 0:08:27to understand the size of the task and the nature of the responsibility
0:08:27 > 0:08:31and to make sure the candidates will have respect.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35If an agreement can be reached between parties,
0:08:35 > 0:08:40that would answer some of this political problem.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43Where do you stand as a party, Helen Mary Jones?
0:08:43 > 0:08:45Elfyn Llwyd said, no thanks,
0:08:45 > 0:08:50but the Liberal Democrats are not going to put candidates forward.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54They won't fund them, anyway.
0:08:54 > 0:08:59As a party, you don't agree either, but you are going to work with candidates.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Well, we don't agree with Westminster
0:09:02 > 0:09:06but we've been sending people there on behalf of Wales for a long time.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10As Alun Michael said, you can oppose the idea initially,
0:09:10 > 0:09:12but, once it's in place,
0:09:12 > 0:09:16you have to use it in the most effective way.
0:09:16 > 0:09:23We have said we don't want to see this sort of job created.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26We've invited people to talk to us
0:09:26 > 0:09:29to see whether we can support an independent candidate,
0:09:29 > 0:09:34but we'll have to agree on issues to do with policing with that person.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37They wouldn't have to support independence for Wales,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40but we'd expect them to support the devolution of policing,
0:09:40 > 0:09:45which is very popular within the police service.
0:09:45 > 0:09:51We're trying to keep party politics out of the process but...
0:09:51 > 0:09:55That bring politics into it, if they must support devolution.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58But not party politics.
0:09:58 > 0:10:03If we can't find the right partner in each seat,
0:10:03 > 0:10:06we'll have to fight as Labour are doing.
0:10:06 > 0:10:11Alun Michael, back in the '90s you were very close to Tony Blair
0:10:11 > 0:10:16when he created the slogan, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18Is there a danger here when you look at voters,
0:10:18 > 0:10:24what they want are people who only want that first bit, tough on crime.
0:10:24 > 0:10:28They don't want people, perhaps, who look at the reasons.
0:10:28 > 0:10:32If you ask the people who have had the experience,
0:10:32 > 0:10:36for example Victim Support, what they said,
0:10:36 > 0:10:41and I will quote what we heard at the Home Affairs Committee,
0:10:41 > 0:10:47"What victims want is to know they won't become victims again."
0:10:47 > 0:10:51The things that work, just as Robert Peel said
0:10:51 > 0:10:54when he established the police force,
0:10:54 > 0:10:57is to make sure that fewer crimes are committed,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00and fewer people experience those situations.
0:11:00 > 0:11:06That's one of the important things we have to understand.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11Also, crimes are different in different areas.
0:11:11 > 0:11:18If you look at South Wales, the commissioner will have to look
0:11:18 > 0:11:23on things that happen in Swansea, the valleys
0:11:23 > 0:11:26as well as the rural areas,
0:11:26 > 0:11:31to make sure things are fair right across the board.
0:11:31 > 0:11:37If you look at an MP from any party,
0:11:37 > 0:11:42after being elected on the platform and the promises made by that party,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46they work for every single constituent.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49One of the problems that isn't clear
0:11:49 > 0:11:53and is a good example for a devolved police force
0:11:53 > 0:11:57is to what extent will the commissioners be answerable
0:11:57 > 0:12:00to the Home Office?
0:12:00 > 0:12:04That's where the money will come from. It all comes down to money.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07The government says they want them to be independent
0:12:07 > 0:12:11but say they run the service that isn't wanted...
0:12:11 > 0:12:16They're going to be caught in the middle and pulled in all directions.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19The commissioner is answerable to a panel,
0:12:19 > 0:12:21they are answerable to other people.
0:12:21 > 0:12:26The Home Secretary can interfere in some situations.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30Perhaps that's not all bad.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32There are checks and balances across the board.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36Maybe that's a good thing.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39But what will happen, Gwynedd, if the door is opened,
0:12:39 > 0:12:45as I mentioned to Alun Michael, on a populist candidate
0:12:45 > 0:12:50that promised to be tough on crime and criminals
0:12:50 > 0:12:56and concentrating on locking up as many people as he can?
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Are you confident that people like that won't be elected?
0:12:59 > 0:13:02- If they are, what happens then? - Exactly.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07That's why we can't avoid the reality that the main parties
0:13:07 > 0:13:10have to take responsibility.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13I don't think you can't stand back and hope for the best
0:13:13 > 0:13:17and hope that things work out. You have to put a candidate forward
0:13:17 > 0:13:20and explain what they're standing for and support their candidacy.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24The parties have to come out and support their candidates,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27he or she is talking sense.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31That's exactly what we're trying to do in Plaid.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34We're looking for partners who stand as independent
0:13:34 > 0:13:36but who agree on our basic policies.
0:13:36 > 0:13:39If it will be successful, we don't know yet.
0:13:39 > 0:13:44Should Wales have its own legal system, separate from England?
0:13:44 > 0:13:48It's been this way in Scotland and Northern Ireland for years but what
0:13:48 > 0:13:53are the arguments for and against having jurisdiction for Wales?
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Who better to summarise than two solicitors.
0:14:01 > 0:14:07The argument is, it is a matter of common sense.
0:14:07 > 0:14:12If you've got different laws within a region,
0:14:12 > 0:14:20then you must have law courts that has authority with that region.
0:14:21 > 0:14:27The All Wales convention report said in their opinion
0:14:27 > 0:14:33the courts were suitable to consider cases from Wales and England,
0:14:33 > 0:14:37and European if need be.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47If people who appear in court in Wales
0:14:47 > 0:14:50are to receive the best service,
0:14:50 > 0:14:56they need to make sure that the judges who listen to their cases
0:14:56 > 0:15:02are judges who are experts in Welsh law.
0:15:02 > 0:15:10If you are solicitor who practises in trade,
0:15:10 > 0:15:18the brand of being a solicitor in England and Wales
0:15:18 > 0:15:20is very important to us
0:15:20 > 0:15:25especially if we're dealing with international business.
0:15:25 > 0:15:32I wouldn't want us to lose that for trade reasons.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40My personal opinion is we need to put plans in place now
0:15:40 > 0:15:45to have a system that works on a practical level,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48rather than waiting until it's reached crisis point
0:15:48 > 0:15:53and trying to control the situation then.
0:15:53 > 0:15:59I think that it's suitable for the courts' constitution
0:15:59 > 0:16:05to acknowledge what's happened with devolution.
0:16:05 > 0:16:13But it's a big thing to split the union between England and Wales.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17Helen Mary Jones,
0:16:17 > 0:16:21is this the next natural step in the process of devolution?
0:16:21 > 0:16:26It is one of the steps. Issues on finance is also important.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30But as one of the solicitors said, once a body of law is developing
0:16:30 > 0:16:34and we'd see it developing very differently
0:16:34 > 0:16:38between England and Wales, you need a system of judges and courts
0:16:38 > 0:16:42that understand that legal system.
0:16:42 > 0:16:47It's simple for me, we need judges who know what's going on here.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51Gwynedd, it's possible to look at everything through this
0:16:51 > 0:16:56constitutional perspective with more and devolved areas.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00Doesn't common sense just say, there aren't many Welsh laws,
0:17:00 > 0:17:02there isn't much of a Welsh legal system,
0:17:02 > 0:17:07there won't be for another five, ten, fifteen years.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09Shouldn't we use common sense?
0:17:09 > 0:17:14Northern Ireland didn't draft any specific laws for quite a while
0:17:14 > 0:17:20but the authority there remained independent between 1972 and 1999.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22Both things aren't co-dependent
0:17:22 > 0:17:25and the Jones Parry report was correct in that respect.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29What we've got here is an opportunity in Wales
0:17:29 > 0:17:31to put our constitution in order.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35As Carwyn Jones said, and he's said this more than once,
0:17:35 > 0:17:40he isn't aware of any other devolved region in the world,
0:17:40 > 0:17:44in federal countries like Canada or Australia,
0:17:44 > 0:17:47where there isn't a separate legal system
0:17:47 > 0:17:51that works with the local legislation.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54We in Wales are acting unnaturally if you will.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56But there's no need to do it now.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00Isn't it time to allow this corpus to develop?
0:18:01 > 0:18:04The decision was made by the Welsh people last year.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07They want legislative devolution.
0:18:07 > 0:18:12It is an issue which we should now address in a reasonable manner.
0:18:12 > 0:18:16A gradual process of devolution has been happening
0:18:16 > 0:18:20within the administration of Welsh courts over the years.
0:18:20 > 0:18:25Alun Michael, wouldn't this just be devolution through the back door?
0:18:25 > 0:18:28No, I believe this is the correct process.
0:18:28 > 0:18:35Things are being devolved over time. That is how it should be done.
0:18:35 > 0:18:39It is a complicated question.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42It is a question of where should Welsh laws
0:18:42 > 0:18:45and decisions about them be made.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48I also believe things will change over time.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52We will have to look at the details
0:18:52 > 0:18:56and ensure we do the most effective things.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00If things are rushed through, which we have seen being done,
0:19:00 > 0:19:05the whole system can be changed and it will take some time,
0:19:05 > 0:19:09or years, to get things running properly.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14I believe the way things are happening, people are moving
0:19:14 > 0:19:18and systems are moving through a process of devolution.
0:19:18 > 0:19:23It doesn't just happen at a certain moment,
0:19:23 > 0:19:29it takes time to develop an efficient system.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Alun Michael is correct, we don't want to rush things.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35But I am aware of one case where a problem has occurred.
0:19:36 > 0:19:40A judge was supposed to be looking at people's rights to care,
0:19:40 > 0:19:45but he wasn't aware that people's rights were different when it
0:19:45 > 0:19:51came to costs and how much could be raised in Wales compared to England.
0:19:51 > 0:19:52One of the lawyers stood up
0:19:52 > 0:19:56and informed the judge of the mistake he was making.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00But I believe, regarding the point made in that clip,
0:20:00 > 0:20:04we need plans to be made now as more developments take place.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08But I must add that the legislation process is very slow.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12But it can never be completely clear.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15We have seen examples in Scotland in recent years.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18They've had a separate system in Scotland for centuries.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21People have gone to the Supreme Court to challenge
0:20:21 > 0:20:24some of the things that have been happening in Scotland.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28You cannot separate them entirely.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30No, this isn't an attack on the state.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33It has nothing to do with the state.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37The Supreme Court is the Supreme Court of the UK.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42Appeals from Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England go there.
0:20:42 > 0:20:47This isn't a promise of a radical change.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52It is just a matter of putting the constitution in Wales in order
0:20:52 > 0:20:55and getting the right structures.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57Helen Mary Jones, what would the ideal model be,
0:20:57 > 0:21:00to go the whole way or nearly the whole way, as we see in Scotland?
0:21:00 > 0:21:04Or are we talking about a model like the one in Northern Ireland,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06where there is less devolution.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09I would say we have to take it step by step.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13We would like to move towards the Northern Ireland model.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17As devolution develops, if we get devolution of the police,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21law and order, we can then move further forward.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25You would of course expect me to say, the sooner, the better.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27We chose tonight's topic, but some people will think
0:21:27 > 0:21:30they're talking about a process once more.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35Politicians worry about devolution, people worry about jobs.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38That is what people are really concerned with.
0:21:38 > 0:21:43Is there an obsession with processes here?
0:21:43 > 0:21:45I have to say that I believe the argument
0:21:45 > 0:21:47is heading in the correct way.
0:21:47 > 0:21:52We need to do things over time, to ensure things are effective
0:21:52 > 0:21:54and take things step by step.
0:21:54 > 0:21:55You chose this topic.
0:21:55 > 0:22:02Jobs are disappearing at Peacocks, which is based in my constituency.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06That is a heavy burden on local people
0:22:06 > 0:22:10and that is what people are talking about on the street.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13But we must also, as politicians,
0:22:13 > 0:22:19and people who work with the law, make sure that we move
0:22:19 > 0:22:26in the right direction and we must make sure that things work properly.
0:22:28 > 0:22:29But once again,
0:22:29 > 0:22:33these issues of process actually affect people's lives.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37If a mistake was made in the case I referred to
0:22:37 > 0:22:42and someone lost their right to get the care they were entitled to
0:22:42 > 0:22:48under Welsh law, that would have had a direct effect on their life.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52That is happening because the link between North Wales and Chester
0:22:52 > 0:22:54has broken since devolution. Things are changing.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57They have to as we react to a new situation.
0:22:57 > 0:23:01Once the body of Welsh law grows,
0:23:01 > 0:23:05we will need more judges who understand it properly.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08But I must add that judges aren't perfect.
0:23:08 > 0:23:14In the British system, we were the first individuals as Ministers
0:23:14 > 0:23:19to have to carry out jury service at a court in London.
0:23:19 > 0:23:27Things aren't perfect. There are problems and mistakes are made.
0:23:27 > 0:23:32It is important that we made sure judges who come from any place
0:23:32 > 0:23:37understand how things are developing in Wales.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41Is this change inevitable?
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Of course it is. I believe it's time we moved on regarding this matter.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47We have been dragging our feet for long enough.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50We'll see. We have some interesting years to look forward to.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52Thank you very much for your company tonight.
0:23:52 > 0:23:57That is it for tonight. We shall be back at 9.30pm next week.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00- Until then, good evening. - Good evening.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10.